Religion dying is not a problem, it's a solution. More and more people are discovering they can and are living moral and spiritual lives without Religion and the god beliefs.
And they are too worried about offending people. They have resorted to progressive Christianity. I think Paul was blunt and direct, and his message is something Christians today need to hear.
Some people no longer go to church because their church is literally gone. Seized by the courts and the property sold to compensate victims. It's bad enough to have incidents happen, it's a whole extra level when incidents are covered up and continue even after promises to reform were made
@@zouksesanetI’m a different but my faith was in Jesus Christ. I then researched and found out it wasn’t true, drove me to three years of addiction and suicidality to deal with the grief of losing my faith. Now that I’m more distant I do actively dislike Christianity. I see many incredibly moral things in Jesus teaching, but the system of salvation from Sin when God is the one who cursed all humanity is sin makes him responsible for sin. Last of all, the Bible is filled with contradictory moral messages and things that are obviously immoral such as slavery, subjugation of women, racism, and ultimately it is a fear based system. Worship me or I will hurt you really bad. I don’t really care about your actions because even the best person is like a dirty rag to me, but if you believe in me I’ll forgive you. God doesn’t operate out of love or justice, but narcissism. This is totally ignoring the reality that there are no philosophical arguments that succeed in proving Christian theism. There may be some arguments that could lead you to a general theism, but there isn’t really a reason to prefer Christianity over Zoroastrianism, Islam, or Hinduism and I imaging many other religions I am unaware of. I really wanted Christianity to be true, I wanted to believe Jesus had paid for my sins, the moral weight of (though I don’t think of them as sin now) which still holds on me now. TLDR; Christianity is not supported by the facts, and even if it were it is immoral
At 62 years old, I just left a high demand church after the Lord began dealing with me about "common unity" (community). I am now going a more local church.
In the Nordics, we’re very fortunate to be largely atheist nations where religion doesn’t affect our daily lives. Our young daughters are protected by law from being indoctrinated with the ignorant, primitive nonsense of the bible. Only some 3% of our population, usually the elderly, attends any kind of religious gathering as frequently as once monthly. In contrast to the dysfunctional U.S., we have low crime rates, little violence, bigotry is both uncommon and unwelcome, few people feel or encounter hate. In Norway, our police have no need to routinely carry guns.
@@user-og2wt3le4j Mass murder in Norway is extremely rare but we did indeed have 77 civilians murdered by a right wing extremist about 10 years ago. The perpetrator was sentenced to 21 years in prison, the longest sentence available under Norwegian law. We tightened our gun laws and improved our mental health services to try to ensure there was no repeat. The fact that we had a mass shooting was horrific but it hardly starts to hold a candle to the largest mass murder in the US, with around 3,000 victims. The US takes no effective actions after mass shootings and, as a result, had some 647 mass shootings in 2022 alone, virtually 2 mass shootings daily. Our annual homicide toll is some 20 per year, about the number of civilians shot dead by dirty US cops weekly. Our police still have no need to routinely carry firearms. I’m unsure what point, if any, you’re trying to make. Our 11 year old daughters cycle or ski unaccompanied to school on a daily basis. We have never had a school shooting, unlike in the US where they are commonplace. Each day, 12 children die from gun violence in the US ~ 84 each week, more than died in the mass shooting in question and, still the US takes no effective action.
I attend a Baptist church here in Brazil. The situation here is no different from the USA. Spiritual coldness has taken over the churches. The Sunday school with few members. This is very sad...😥😥
@@Mau66634 I find the decline in church membership to be a source of great hope for humanity, especially when children are staying away. Fewer young lives being destroyed by superstitious nonsense.
Our young people are not fearful as most church-goers are. When you are scared, sitting in a pew watching a priest or minister do everything can be comforting. Young people know that there is a God, but being our Father, He loves us as a "father" and we do not "earn" this love. Spending every Sunday in church is a Middle Ages Catholic attitude when everything was about sin and avoiding sin. Jesus was all about love, charity, and acceptance! I give Christianity ten years!
Church attendance peaked over 50 years ago when cities/towns were smaller and information wasn't so readily available. For many, it was also the only social outlet they had. Age and demographics have an ENORMOUS affect as well as that younger generations have so many other outlets and so do not attend as they did when there was nothing else to do. I did not grow up in the church but began attending (Presbyterian) after marriage because my wife was a lifelong Presbyterian. I have said to many (including pastors) that when we were young marrieds (25) EVERYONE at church was older than we were (which is understandable). At 40 90% were still older, and by 50 probably 80% were still older. Now, at 68, it is still clear that well over half are STILL older than we are and church represents their primary (if not only) social outlet. And during my life I've never seen judgement and politics displayed on a personal level more than at church; anyone honest can remember at least once when one of the 'church ladies' gave you the stink-eye because you chose not to attend yet another church potluck because you had other plans with friends/family that were not church members. This model is obviously not sustainable. The information age and scientific knowledge is what's killing the church. Throughout history mankind has dealt with the unknown by anointing some sort of 'God' to explain it. As knowledge grows there is no longer a need for a God of Fire, or the Ocean, or the Hunt, or Thunder etc etc etc. The only real 'mystery' anymore is death; and if you can't bring yourself to believe that some unknown entity has created Heaven or Hell to represent life after death (ESPECIALLY since we are supposedly worshipping a 'loving' God) Church just becomes yet another 2000-year old fairy tale.
Hey guys. Great show lots of good stuff. I liked the thought on parents feeling like they are failing if they aren't giving their kids every "opportunity" to be the person that they could be. Would be good to do a show that covers that and how "postmodern individual expressivism" has steered well meaning christian parents away from biblical parenting.
As a pastor's kid who grew up in the church and is now a non-believer, I can assure you that the biggest reason why church attendance is declining, is because religious belief is declining. I realized when I was ten years old that the bible is just a book. It's not the word of God, and most of the kids around me agreed. We all thought that we were being fed a bunch of BS. By the time I was thirteen, I realized that about 30% of our congregation didn't want to be there. Like myself, they were only attending because of coercion, family pressure, etc. To me the question shouldn't be, "Why are so many people leaving the Church?" The question should be, "Why are there so many people still there?"
I attend a Baptist church here in Brazil. The situation here is no different from the USA. Spiritual coldness has taken over the churches. The Sunday school with few members. This is very sad...😥😥
@uug6677 I know that it is sad for many people, but you can't expect people to keep on believing something that is false. Eventually, that belief will die off.
Thank you for leaving a comment. I'm sorry to hear about your experience with church, and your conclusion that Christianity is false. A great deal of our discussion in this "Declining Church" series highlighted the definite impact that negative church experience had and has on people's faith. I'm sorry if that was your experience. It certainly hasn't been mine, being part of a loving church family where people genuinely show me and my family the love of Jesus all the time. Also, where we regularly hear stories from people, such as our recent baptism service, who testify to the way that Jesus has literally transformed their lives, freeing them from the brokenness and shame of sin. You've likely heard all this before, and think it's nonsense, but this is my experience with church which I wish for others. I'm curious to know how you came to the conclusion that the Bible was just a book, and nothing more. Was that the result of study, or just being fed up? I'd also just challenge your final statement that belief (I assume you mean Christian) will just die off. Sadly, the decline is an undeniable feature of western culture. But globally, the growth of Christianity is outpacing population growth, at least according to 2024 Status of Global Christianity Report. www.gordonconwell.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2024/01/Status-of-Global-Christianity-2024.pdf. See also research.lifeway.com/2024/01/22/8-encouraging-trends-in-global-christianity-for-2024/ Thanks for leaving a comment.
@@PreparedtoAnswer Thank you for responding to my comment. I can't really say that I had any seriously negative church experiences that led up to my conclusion that the Bible was just a book, besides it being excruciatingly boring, and screwing up my weekend plans. I did have some family members who were victims of sexual abuse by a pastor who was given a severe slap on the wrist, and banished to a new parish in Calgary, where he promptly re-offended. I was pretty choked about that, but by that time, I was already done with Christianity. The one really negative experience I had was shortly after I saw the light, so to speak. I was in church and instead of just drifting off to my happy place and riding it out, like I usually did, I decided to listen to the sermon. It was a different pastor preaching that day, not my dad, and it was during that sermon that it just hit me like a ton of bricks. The pastor was going on and on about how the Bible is true, and God is our creator, and that Jesus is real, and that he really does love me. No seriously, it is true, and he wants to spend eternity with me, so I had better believe in him and love him back....or else! (I am paraphrasing a little bit there, but that was the gist of the message). I instantly knew that it was all crap. When you are talking to someone, you don't have to keep reminding them over and over again that you are not lying, and then threaten them if they don't believe you. Only a liar does that. Remember the Fox News logo, "Fair and Balanced"? A news station shouldn't have to remind it's audience every commercial break that they are fair and Balanced. If you are not fair and balanced, then you are not a news station. Fox News finally figured that out and dropped that logo, but I digress. It was a few days after hearing that sermon, that I foolishly asked my dad, "How do we know that the Bible is true?" He got this psychotic look on his face, grabbed me by the short hairs and said, "Don't you ever, EVER, question the word of God. Do you hear me?" That was the last time I had ever discussed religion with my dad. We somehow managed to go the next 45 years without ever bringing up the subject again. As far as the Bible goes, I am perfectly justified in assuming that the Bible is entirely man-made, until proven otherwise. According to UNESCO, there have been 158 464 880 unique books published as of 2023. Of course that is just an estimate, but let's assume that number is correct just for arguments sake. I believe that all of those books were authored entirely by human beings with absolutely no divine, or supernatural input, influence, or inspiration whatsoever. Christians believe that 158 464 879 of those books were authored entirely by human beings, and one was not. What makes you think that number is 158 464 879, and not 158 464 880? If you want to take a closer look at the Bible, it completely collapses under the sheer weight of it's own hypocrisy, contradictions, scientific and historical inaccuracies, misogyny, brutality, injustice, and absolute madness. It looks, reads, sounds, smells, and tastes like fiction. It has our grubby little human finger prints all over it. Like Penn Jillette said, "If you want to become an atheist, nothing will get you there faster than reading the Bible."
@@PreparedtoAnswer To address your comment about the growth of the church globally, I agree that in the developing countries, Christianity will continue to grow for the time being, but once those countries start catching up to the west as far as education and development, I'm sure that religiosity will start to decline. It appears that education levels and religiosity are inversely proportional.
I think a large part of declining attendance is because believers are not being fed from the word by good expository teaching. Far too many churches are worshiping music rather than God. I finally got to the point that when I walked into a church for the first time, I turn around and leave if there is permanent setup of band equipment like a drum kit, guitar stands, keyboards and large speakers. I'm not always right, but more often than not, the so called church is nothing more than a social club with music at its center that only calls itself "Christian" to feel good about themselves.
It's the influence of Hill Song on other evangelical churches. The music is supposed to draw them in. But there is little substance in terms of doctrine and teaching. Worse, many of these modern churches have become woke and resort to progressive Christianity. For example, don't like Paul's teachings? Just throw them out and keep what makes you feel good.
I attend a Baptist church here in Brazil. The situation here is no different from the USA. Spiritual coldness has taken over the churches. The Sunday school with few members. This is very sad...😥😥
This has missed a few key points. American religious communities have traditionally been divided upon socioeconomic lines. Economic pressure on the middle class will make large numbers of people feel uncomfortable going to church. Also, declining birth rates shrink congregations, which makes church attendance less attractive. This is just demographics. Couple this with new social norms in education and beyond that is antithetical to what every previous generation would have thought of as Christian, and it becomes surprising no that so many people have left but that so many people are still there. This, however, I believe, is a by-product of successful marketing that has made the church experience almost unrecognizable. In the town I grew up in, there are two churches that I attended as a child. One has become the quintessence of Wokism, and the other is an evangelical rock concert. It goes without saying that when I was a child, neither were like this. Both have waxed and wained over the years, but they both are welcoming and seeker centric in their own way. However, I don't feel very welcome. If you want Christians, breed them and be a real community to them, promulgating Christian traditions and a Christian way of life. But how does the local church be a community when the national drive is to move people around constantly. (I will not give you the satisfaction of knowing what my religious preferences currently are.)
Speaking for myself, I never believed it to be true, even when growing up. I'd always thought it was more just a story parents told their kids in order to teach them how to be good people, like many other stories. Never took it seriously in the first place. My mid teens, life did what life does best sometimes, and my whole world was turned upside down for a while. During that time, I started passively doing actual "research" into what all was believed, and found a number of things absolutely horrible. Combine that with the fact that, of course, nobody can even agree 100% on what is proper etiquette for being a Christian ( and similar situations for many other faiths as well), and the fact that many things morally and scientifically don't add up with how the world is now and the things we've discovered since the time Jesus is said to have lived in (I believe he was likely real, but not the son of a higher power of some kind), and it's very difficult to figure out what "should be believed." Lastly, aside for morals and scientific knowledge changing over time, at least within the past few years, it's also just not as helpful for putting food on the table for a fair majority of people. The economy is of course garbage right now, and more people are needing to focus on that stuff first. Though that's more just a side affect of COVID and other such things. Life will be life after all.
A lot of reasons why I don't go: 1. I taught Attic/Ionic and Koine Greek to classics students in Europe for 25 years. Pastors use English translations but they are all bad, just bad. All English translations promote Jerome's neo-Platonism. Jerome knew more about Plato than he did about Christ. And there is no, absolutely no, eternal human soul. Jerome just loved Plato's unbiblical nonsense. 2. Pastors preach James and they really should leave James alone. James refers to faith in the Jewish Shema and not faith in Christ for salvation. He wrote to Jews awaiting Messiah. Jews believed that faith in the Shema saved them and they recited it twice daily. James reminds them that the Shema is the introduction to the entire Law of Moses, and they are saved by doing good works via the Law. ("Was not Abraham justified by works?") 3. The early church met as a family, where everyone, including women, prayed, sang, prophesied, and mutually edified one another. The passive audience listening to one member of the Body of Christ is unbiblical and denies the priesthood of all believers. '' God will NOT bless any institutional church where the pastor dominates the gathering. 4. There's no fellowship. See #3. 5. The moment that a church becomes obsessed with "authority and power," rest assured that the Spirit of God has left the building.
Thank you for leaving a comment, and for the time and thought you put into it. I'm certainly resonate with some of the things you lament are often missing from many church experiences, such as true biblical fellowship and passive participation. However, surely you can't suggest this is always the case, can you? I confess I'm always a little leary when the term "new-Platonism" is thrown down as an objection because I'm never really sure what the objector means by it. In what way did Jerome's knowledge of Plato influence his Bible translation? And how does this then affect modern translations whose translation committees depend upon Greek and Hebrew manuscripts for their translation? And how did you come to the conclusion from it all that there is no eternal, human soul? Are you differentiating soul and spirit somehow? What then is Jesus referring to as "eternal life"? Respectfully, I honestly think you mis-represent James grossly. He clearly states that he himself is a "servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" (1:1), writing to "brothers and sisters, who are believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ" (2:1). James never argues that we are saved by works. He argues that Abraham was justified by his works, because his works were a demonstration of his faith. He clearly states in 2:23 - "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness". His overall point being "faith without works is dead". Where Paul often faced the legalism of the Jews who believed we are saved by works of the law, James was tackling the opposite problem of "easy believe-ism" (antinomianism) and needed to re-establish in the minds of his readers the necessary connection between faith and deeds. Here's a useful summary from Micheal Kruger www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/book-james-christian/ Our overall discussion in this series focuses on the fact that, while definitely flawed, the church is still the bride of Christ and his great love. How then can we call ourselves Christians and have no place for it in our own lives? I'd encourage you to listen to our conversation through this series. Thanks for your interest!
Re. #3. I attend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We use a bishop as congregation leader, but they are not a traditional pastor. Sermons or talks are given by lay members each week. Members get callings, or positions to keep them active in the church (like primary or youth class teacher). There is also a sense of community or secondary family. If a member is in trouble they can turn to the church for help. Our numbers are up post COVID compared to other churches in Canada. My congregation (ward) has seen a 120% increase in attendance in the last 12 months.
The congregations are expanding in bible knowledge beyond the preachers who are still locked into a past, dogmatic, historic understanding of scripture. This is the Church in the age of information. Maybe this is the beginning of the end for the clergy class?
This is an interesting perspective. But this is as much the age of mis-information as it is information. How will this "clergy-less" (i.e. leaderless) church learn to discern truth from error? If we dismiss our historic understanding of Scripture, what are we replacing it with and how do we know this new way of understanding is a true understanding?
Did you dig behind the "life circumstances" answer? Someone who wants to attend church will make it happen in some way, shape, fashion, or form. They will attend at a different time, maybe they can only hit Wednesday night or Sunday night. Or they find a church with a Saturday. Or whatever it is. Moving away to college - most colleges have chapels or nearby church relationships. And disconnection - that makes no sense when they can now attend a chapel on campus with peers. That study collected answers about a very sensitive question that people may not want to own an answer to. Lifeway made zero attempt to ask that in multiple ways or in a more subject-sensitive manner the way ACTUAL qualitative researchers do. And here's a news flash: People ARE NOT leaving primarily due to Christians or the church. They leave because of LITERACY. They can read a bible anytime they want on their phone, or wherever. And when they do, they learn about the actual god in there: the violence, the land theft, the misogyny, the chattel slavery, the ritual male genital mutilation loyalty oath. They can hear about the bigotry toward this group or that. They're not stupid, in other words. Literacy has ALWAYS been a prime enemy for the church. They burned bibles, bible readers, and destroyed printing presses when moveable type became a thing in 1452. They KNEW the grift was at risk.
I think too many people have begun to think with the minds they actually have. We see the results of embracing reality in lieu of fantastical imaginations that carried our fragile species tthrough the dark nights of our fears.
They would still be selling slaves in Rome if it were not for the Holy Spirit. “The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world” John (1:9)
Honestly in my big city suburb the reason decline has exploded is quite simple: kids sports!..Im talking away games, practices, etc etc. Church has declined in importance on the weekends.
Jesus Christ is Lord whether people believe or not. King of Kings the Lord of lords. You cannot kick God off of his Throne because he is God all by himself
I think people believing such an assertion or not is important. Religion's nonsensical claims eventually become irrelevant when people no longer believe it. Take it from a former Catholic and long time Atheist.
No such thing as an atheist. The Law of God is written on the hearts of men. The Heavens and the Earth declare his glory. God is not going to give up on you 🙏
@@lloydfrancis9149 dude, I'm not impressed with your religious proseylitizing because you're brainwashed. I'm not going through the whole argument what Atheism is, burden of proof and nonsense religious claims with its lack of evidence. I've done that enough times with conmen apologists. Religion is on the decline for many reasons and proseylitizing isn't going to change that. 2019 Pew survey -1/3 of the U. S population has grown Atheist/nones - ~ 50% of gen Z are already non-religious - Gen Alpha when coming of age, religion is predicted to become a minority - church decline started long before Covid, and with Religion becoming increasingly political it has actually fractured denominations with migration and seperation of "liberal" Christians and "MAGA" Christians. Another important not about church decline both in buildings and congregents... It becomes much harder for Religion to continue brainwashing Christians such as yourself when they don't attend. Its what happened to me. I was a former Catholic long time Atheist, went to most private Christian schools and surrounded by many Christian friends... But still ended up dropping my religious beliefs around highschool. Now with Republicans trying to shove Christians nationalism across the country, it's not going to work. Kids are more exposed to secular life... And reality, and if someone like me who was steeply raised Christian and went to mostly Christians schools broke out of Religon, what makes churches think school kids these days won't break out even faster or even accept the Religion forced on to them? Let the religion go to die in the Bronze age where it belongs. You don't need it
@@lloydfrancis9149 good to see my original and deeply written reply to you was deleted. Here is a summary. Your proseylytizing will not change anything. You don't know what Atheism is People are happier and more spiritual leaving Religion. And no, pushing Christo-fascism across the country will not win people and their kids to Christ. Religion is dying... Incidentally Capitalism will also soon go out the door.
Triumph over what, exactly? Seems a philosophy of excuse for the massive failures in almost every area society. All of which is of little consequence to belivers.
Religion dying is not a problem, it's a solution.
More and more people are discovering they can and are living moral and spiritual lives without Religion and the god beliefs.
Becuase people are starting to find out that “the church” isn’t teaching what the Bible actually says. They’re stuck in man made traditions.
And they are too worried about offending people. They have resorted to progressive Christianity. I think Paul was blunt and direct, and his message is something Christians today need to hear.
the news about the amount of abuse that goes on at the so called church pastors etc hasn't helped at all
Some people no longer go to church because their church is literally gone. Seized by the courts and the property sold to compensate victims. It's bad enough to have incidents happen, it's a whole extra level when incidents are covered up and continue even after promises to reform were made
I left the church because I just don't believe in it anymore.
Was your faith in the church, or in Jesus Christ?
@@zouksesanetI’m a different but my faith was in Jesus Christ. I then researched and found out it wasn’t true, drove me to three years of addiction and suicidality to deal with the grief of losing my faith.
Now that I’m more distant I do actively dislike Christianity. I see many incredibly moral things in Jesus teaching, but the system of salvation from Sin when God is the one who cursed all humanity is sin makes him responsible for sin. Last of all, the Bible is filled with contradictory moral messages and things that are obviously immoral such as slavery, subjugation of women, racism, and ultimately it is a fear based system.
Worship me or I will hurt you really bad. I don’t really care about your actions because even the best person is like a dirty rag to me, but if you believe in me I’ll forgive you.
God doesn’t operate out of love or justice, but narcissism.
This is totally ignoring the reality that there are no philosophical arguments that succeed in proving Christian theism. There may be some arguments that could lead you to a general theism, but there isn’t really a reason to prefer Christianity over Zoroastrianism, Islam, or Hinduism and I imaging many other religions I am unaware of.
I really wanted Christianity to be true, I wanted to believe Jesus had paid for my sins, the moral weight of (though I don’t think of them as sin now) which still holds on me now.
TLDR;
Christianity is not supported by the facts, and even if it were it is immoral
@@Rory-co4vm I'll see you when the smoke clears.
@Rory-co4vm 1 Corinthians 2:5
King James Version
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
At 62 years old, I just left a high demand church after the Lord began dealing with me about "common unity" (community). I am now going a more local church.
In the Nordics, we’re very fortunate to be largely atheist nations where religion doesn’t affect our daily lives. Our young daughters are protected by law from being indoctrinated with the ignorant, primitive nonsense of the bible. Only some 3% of our population, usually the elderly, attends any kind of religious gathering as frequently as once monthly. In contrast to the dysfunctional U.S., we have low crime rates, little violence, bigotry is both uncommon and unwelcome, few people feel or encounter hate. In Norway, our police have no need to routinely carry guns.
And wasn't one of the worst cases of mass murder committed in Norway a few years back?
@@user-og2wt3le4j Mass murder in Norway is extremely rare but we did indeed have 77 civilians murdered by a right wing extremist about 10 years ago. The perpetrator was sentenced to 21 years in prison, the longest sentence available under Norwegian law. We tightened our gun laws and improved our mental health services to try to ensure there was no repeat. The fact that we had a mass shooting was horrific but it hardly starts to hold a candle to the largest mass murder in the US, with around 3,000 victims. The US takes no effective actions after mass shootings and, as a result, had some 647 mass shootings in 2022 alone, virtually 2 mass shootings daily. Our annual homicide toll is some 20 per year, about the number of civilians shot dead by dirty US cops weekly. Our police still have no need to routinely carry firearms. I’m unsure what point, if any, you’re trying to make. Our 11 year old daughters cycle or ski unaccompanied to school on a daily basis. We have never had a school shooting, unlike in the US where they are commonplace. Each day, 12 children die from gun violence in the US ~ 84 each week, more than died in the mass shooting in question and, still the US takes no effective action.
I attend a Baptist church here in Brazil. The situation here is no different from the USA. Spiritual coldness has taken over the churches. The Sunday school with few members. This is very sad...😥😥
@@Mau66634 I find the decline in church membership to be a source of great hope for humanity, especially when children are staying away. Fewer young lives being destroyed by superstitious nonsense.
GOOD POINT❗️😂@@anushkasekkingstad1300
We are in the information age and as knowledge rises, legends will fall away
Our young people are not fearful as most church-goers are.
When you are scared, sitting in a pew watching a priest or minister do everything can be comforting.
Young people know that there is a God, but being our Father, He loves us as a "father" and we do not "earn" this love.
Spending every Sunday in church is a Middle Ages Catholic attitude when everything was about sin and avoiding sin.
Jesus was all about love, charity, and acceptance!
I give Christianity ten years!
Church attendance peaked over 50 years ago when cities/towns were smaller and information wasn't so readily available. For many, it was also the only social outlet they had. Age and demographics have an ENORMOUS affect as well as that younger generations have so many other outlets and so do not attend as they did when there was nothing else to do.
I did not grow up in the church but began attending (Presbyterian) after marriage because my wife was a lifelong Presbyterian. I have said to many (including pastors) that when we were young marrieds (25) EVERYONE at church was older than we were (which is understandable). At 40 90% were still older, and by 50 probably 80% were still older. Now, at 68, it is still clear that well over half are STILL older than we are and church represents their primary (if not only) social outlet. And during my life I've never seen judgement and politics displayed on a personal level more than at church; anyone honest can remember at least once when one of the 'church ladies' gave you the stink-eye because you chose not to attend yet another church potluck because you had other plans with friends/family that were not church members. This model is obviously not sustainable.
The information age and scientific knowledge is what's killing the church. Throughout history mankind has dealt with the unknown by anointing some sort of 'God' to explain it. As knowledge grows there is no longer a need for a God of Fire, or the Ocean, or the Hunt, or Thunder etc etc etc. The only real 'mystery' anymore is death; and if you can't bring yourself to believe that some unknown entity has created Heaven or Hell to represent life after death (ESPECIALLY since we are supposedly worshipping a 'loving' God) Church just becomes yet another 2000-year old fairy tale.
Hey guys. Great show lots of good stuff. I liked the thought on parents feeling like they are failing if they aren't giving their kids every "opportunity" to be the person that they could be. Would be good to do a show that covers that and how "postmodern individual expressivism" has steered well meaning christian parents away from biblical parenting.
As a pastor's kid who grew up in the church and is now a non-believer, I can assure you that the biggest reason why church attendance is declining, is because religious belief is declining. I realized when I was ten years old that the bible is just a book. It's not the word of God, and most of the kids around me agreed. We all thought that we were being fed a bunch of BS. By the time I was thirteen, I realized that about 30% of our congregation didn't want to be there. Like myself, they were only attending because of coercion, family pressure, etc. To me the question shouldn't be, "Why are so many people leaving the Church?" The question should be, "Why are there so many people still there?"
I attend a Baptist church here in Brazil. The situation here is no different from the USA. Spiritual coldness has taken over the churches. The Sunday school with few members. This is very sad...😥😥
@uug6677 I know that it is sad for many people, but you can't expect people to keep on believing something that is false. Eventually, that belief will die off.
Thank you for leaving a comment.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience with church, and your conclusion that Christianity is false. A great deal of our discussion in this "Declining Church" series highlighted the definite impact that negative church experience had and has on people's faith. I'm sorry if that was your experience. It certainly hasn't been mine, being part of a loving church family where people genuinely show me and my family the love of Jesus all the time. Also, where we regularly hear stories from people, such as our recent baptism service, who testify to the way that Jesus has literally transformed their lives, freeing them from the brokenness and shame of sin. You've likely heard all this before, and think it's nonsense, but this is my experience with church which I wish for others.
I'm curious to know how you came to the conclusion that the Bible was just a book, and nothing more. Was that the result of study, or just being fed up?
I'd also just challenge your final statement that belief (I assume you mean Christian) will just die off. Sadly, the decline is an undeniable feature of western culture. But globally, the growth of Christianity is outpacing population growth, at least according to 2024 Status of Global Christianity Report. www.gordonconwell.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2024/01/Status-of-Global-Christianity-2024.pdf. See also research.lifeway.com/2024/01/22/8-encouraging-trends-in-global-christianity-for-2024/
Thanks for leaving a comment.
@@PreparedtoAnswer Thank you for responding to my comment.
I can't really say that I had any seriously negative church experiences that led up to my conclusion that the Bible was just a book, besides it being excruciatingly boring, and screwing up my weekend plans. I did have some family members who were victims of sexual abuse by a pastor who was given a severe slap on the wrist, and banished to a new parish in Calgary, where he promptly re-offended. I was pretty choked about that, but by that time, I was already done with Christianity.
The one really negative experience I had was shortly after I saw the light, so to speak. I was in church and instead of just drifting off to my happy place and riding it out, like I usually did, I decided to listen to the sermon. It was a different pastor preaching that day, not my dad, and it was during that sermon that it just hit me like a ton of bricks. The pastor was going on and on about how the Bible is true, and God is our creator, and that Jesus is real, and that he really does love me. No seriously, it is true, and he wants to spend eternity with me, so I had better believe in him and love him back....or else! (I am paraphrasing a little bit there, but that was the gist of the message). I instantly knew that it was all crap. When you are talking to someone, you don't have to keep reminding them over and over again that you are not lying, and then threaten them if they don't believe you. Only a liar does that. Remember the Fox News logo, "Fair and Balanced"? A news station shouldn't have to remind it's audience every commercial break that they are fair and Balanced. If you are not fair and balanced, then you are not a news station. Fox News finally figured that out and dropped that logo, but I digress. It was a few days after hearing that sermon, that I foolishly asked my dad, "How do we know that the Bible is true?" He got this psychotic look on his face, grabbed me by the short hairs and said, "Don't you ever, EVER, question the word of God. Do you hear me?" That was the last time I had ever discussed religion with my dad. We somehow managed to go the next 45 years without ever bringing up the subject again.
As far as the Bible goes, I am perfectly justified in assuming that the Bible is entirely man-made, until proven otherwise. According to UNESCO, there have been 158 464 880 unique books published as of 2023. Of course that is just an estimate, but let's assume that number is correct just for arguments sake. I believe that all of those books were authored entirely by human beings with absolutely no divine, or supernatural input, influence, or inspiration whatsoever. Christians believe that 158 464 879 of those books were authored entirely by human beings, and one was not. What makes you think that number is 158 464 879, and not 158 464 880?
If you want to take a closer look at the Bible, it completely collapses under the sheer weight of it's own hypocrisy, contradictions, scientific and historical inaccuracies, misogyny, brutality, injustice, and absolute madness. It looks, reads, sounds, smells, and tastes like fiction. It has our grubby little human finger prints all over it. Like Penn Jillette said, "If you want to become an atheist, nothing will get you there faster than reading the Bible."
@@PreparedtoAnswer To address your comment about the growth of the church globally, I agree that in the developing countries, Christianity will continue to grow for the time being, but once those countries start catching up to the west as far as education and development, I'm sure that religiosity will start to decline. It appears that education levels and religiosity are inversely proportional.
I think a large part of declining attendance is because believers are not being fed from the word by good expository teaching. Far too many churches are worshiping music rather than God. I finally got to the point that when I walked into a church for the first time, I turn around and leave if there is permanent setup of band equipment like a drum kit, guitar stands, keyboards and large speakers. I'm not always right, but more often than not, the so called church is nothing more than a social club with music at its center that only calls itself "Christian" to feel good about themselves.
It's the influence of Hill Song on other evangelical churches. The music is supposed to draw them in. But there is little substance in terms of doctrine and teaching. Worse, many of these modern churches have become woke and resort to progressive Christianity. For example, don't like Paul's teachings? Just throw them out and keep what makes you feel good.
I attend a Baptist church here in Brazil. The situation here is no different from the USA. Spiritual coldness has taken over the churches. The Sunday school with few members. This is very sad...😥😥
I left because I just couldn't stand the nonsense in the Bible any longer.
Politics and values are very heavily loaded with the guilt people were handed instead of love, for just wanting to be human.
This has missed a few key points. American religious communities have traditionally been divided upon socioeconomic lines. Economic pressure on the middle class will make large numbers of people feel uncomfortable going to church. Also, declining birth rates shrink congregations, which makes church attendance less attractive. This is just demographics. Couple this with new social norms in education and beyond that is antithetical to what every previous generation would have thought of as Christian, and it becomes surprising no that so many people have left but that so many people are still there. This, however, I believe, is a by-product of successful marketing that has made the church experience almost unrecognizable. In the town I grew up in, there are two churches that I attended as a child. One has become the quintessence of Wokism, and the other is an evangelical rock concert. It goes without saying that when I was a child, neither were like this. Both have waxed and wained over the years, but they both are welcoming and seeker centric in their own way. However, I don't feel very welcome. If you want Christians, breed them and be a real community to them, promulgating Christian traditions and a Christian way of life. But how does the local church be a community when the national drive is to move people around constantly. (I will not give you the satisfaction of knowing what my religious preferences currently are.)
Speaking for myself, I never believed it to be true, even when growing up. I'd always thought it was more just a story parents told their kids in order to teach them how to be good people, like many other stories. Never took it seriously in the first place.
My mid teens, life did what life does best sometimes, and my whole world was turned upside down for a while. During that time, I started passively doing actual "research" into what all was believed, and found a number of things absolutely horrible. Combine that with the fact that, of course, nobody can even agree 100% on what is proper etiquette for being a Christian ( and similar situations for many other faiths as well), and the fact that many things morally and scientifically don't add up with how the world is now and the things we've discovered since the time Jesus is said to have lived in (I believe he was likely real, but not the son of a higher power of some kind), and it's very difficult to figure out what "should be believed."
Lastly, aside for morals and scientific knowledge changing over time, at least within the past few years, it's also just not as helpful for putting food on the table for a fair majority of people. The economy is of course garbage right now, and more people are needing to focus on that stuff first. Though that's more just a side affect of COVID and other such things. Life will be life after all.
People are not resources and churches have used them like that. They are done with it.
People don't want to feel all that guilt about everything they think and do.
A lot of reasons why I don't go:
1. I taught Attic/Ionic and Koine Greek to classics students in Europe for 25 years. Pastors use English translations but they are all bad, just bad. All English translations promote Jerome's neo-Platonism. Jerome knew more about Plato than he did about Christ. And there is no, absolutely no, eternal human soul. Jerome just loved Plato's unbiblical nonsense.
2. Pastors preach James and they really should leave James alone. James refers to faith in the Jewish Shema and not faith in Christ for salvation. He wrote to Jews awaiting Messiah. Jews believed that faith in the Shema saved them and they recited it twice daily. James reminds them that the Shema is the introduction to the entire Law of Moses, and they are saved by doing good works via the Law. ("Was not Abraham justified by works?")
3. The early church met as a family, where everyone, including women, prayed, sang, prophesied, and mutually edified one another. The passive audience listening to one member of the Body of Christ is unbiblical and denies the priesthood of all believers. ''
God will NOT bless any institutional church where the pastor dominates the gathering.
4. There's no fellowship. See #3.
5. The moment that a church becomes obsessed with "authority and power," rest assured that the Spirit of God has left the building.
Thank you for leaving a comment, and for the time and thought you put into it. I'm certainly resonate with some of the things you lament are often missing from many church experiences, such as true biblical fellowship and passive participation. However, surely you can't suggest this is always the case, can you?
I confess I'm always a little leary when the term "new-Platonism" is thrown down as an objection because I'm never really sure what the objector means by it. In what way did Jerome's knowledge of Plato influence his Bible translation? And how does this then affect modern translations whose translation committees depend upon Greek and Hebrew manuscripts for their translation? And how did you come to the conclusion from it all that there is no eternal, human soul? Are you differentiating soul and spirit somehow? What then is Jesus referring to as "eternal life"?
Respectfully, I honestly think you mis-represent James grossly. He clearly states that he himself is a "servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ" (1:1), writing to "brothers and sisters, who are believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ" (2:1). James never argues that we are saved by works. He argues that Abraham was justified by his works, because his works were a demonstration of his faith. He clearly states in 2:23 - "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness".
His overall point being "faith without works is dead". Where Paul often faced the legalism of the Jews who believed we are saved by works of the law, James was tackling the opposite problem of "easy believe-ism" (antinomianism) and needed to re-establish in the minds of his readers the necessary connection between faith and deeds. Here's a useful summary from Micheal Kruger www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/book-james-christian/
Our overall discussion in this series focuses on the fact that, while definitely flawed, the church is still the bride of Christ and his great love. How then can we call ourselves Christians and have no place for it in our own lives?
I'd encourage you to listen to our conversation through this series. Thanks for your interest!
I would be interested in how the Ethiopian and Orthodox translations compare to the KJV, NKJV, NIV, and NLT versions of the Bible.
Re. #3. I attend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We use a bishop as congregation leader, but they are not a traditional pastor. Sermons or talks are given by lay members each week. Members get callings, or positions to keep them active in the church (like primary or youth class teacher). There is also a sense of community or secondary family. If a member is in trouble they can turn to the church for help. Our numbers are up post COVID compared to other churches in Canada. My congregation (ward) has seen a 120% increase in attendance in the last 12 months.
The congregations are expanding in bible knowledge beyond the preachers who are still locked into a past, dogmatic, historic understanding of scripture. This is the Church in the age of information. Maybe this is the beginning of the end for the clergy class?
This is an interesting perspective. But this is as much the age of mis-information as it is information. How will this "clergy-less" (i.e. leaderless) church learn to discern truth from error? If we dismiss our historic understanding of Scripture, what are we replacing it with and how do we know this new way of understanding is a true understanding?
So many leaders were held up as not being human. They are and their sins are finding them out. Welcome to the information age!
Did you dig behind the "life circumstances" answer? Someone who wants to attend church will make it happen in some way, shape, fashion, or form. They will attend at a different time, maybe they can only hit Wednesday night or Sunday night. Or they find a church with a Saturday. Or whatever it is. Moving away to college - most colleges have chapels or nearby church relationships. And disconnection - that makes no sense when they can now attend a chapel on campus with peers. That study collected answers about a very sensitive question that people may not want to own an answer to. Lifeway made zero attempt to ask that in multiple ways or in a more subject-sensitive manner the way ACTUAL qualitative researchers do.
And here's a news flash: People ARE NOT leaving primarily due to Christians or the church. They leave because of LITERACY. They can read a bible anytime they want on their phone, or wherever. And when they do, they learn about the actual god in there: the violence, the land theft, the misogyny, the chattel slavery, the ritual male genital mutilation loyalty oath. They can hear about the bigotry toward this group or that. They're not stupid, in other words. Literacy has ALWAYS been a prime enemy for the church. They burned bibles, bible readers, and destroyed printing presses when moveable type became a thing in 1452. They KNEW the grift was at risk.
I think too many people have begun to think with the minds they actually have. We see the results of embracing reality in lieu of fantastical imaginations that carried our fragile species tthrough the dark nights of our fears.
Indoctrination of kids with fables...uhh
I’m SGI Buddhist that makes sense. God type religions just don’t
Because people are starting to realise it's nonsense.
They would still be selling slaves in Rome if it were not for the Holy Spirit. “The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world” John (1:9)
Shared vocabulary is exclusive cultish activity. That's why it's being left behind
Not to miss the big point of this chat... but the studio looks 🔥🔥🔥
Missionary guys that came here from 3rd world conditions almost never stayed with the church.
Because ppl are not stupid.
Honestly in my big city suburb the reason decline has exploded is quite simple: kids sports!..Im talking away games, practices, etc etc. Church has declined in importance on the weekends.
"kids sports" is the reason why Church decline has been going on this country?
Is that really your answer?
Kids Sports and iron chariots, the krypton of God.
Sing the word of God and saturate your hearts with God's living word.
Jesus Christ is Lord whether people believe or not. King of Kings the Lord of lords. You cannot kick God off of his Throne because he is God all by himself
I think people believing such an assertion or not is important.
Religion's nonsensical claims eventually become irrelevant when people no longer believe it.
Take it from a former Catholic and long time Atheist.
No such thing as an atheist. The Law of God is written on the hearts of men. The Heavens and the Earth declare his glory. God is not going to give up on you 🙏
@@lloydfrancis9149 dude, I'm not impressed with your religious proseylitizing because you're brainwashed.
I'm not going through the whole argument what Atheism is, burden of proof and nonsense religious claims with its lack of evidence. I've done that enough times with conmen apologists.
Religion is on the decline for many reasons and proseylitizing isn't going to change that.
2019 Pew survey
-1/3 of the U. S population has grown Atheist/nones
- ~ 50% of gen Z are already non-religious
- Gen Alpha when coming of age, religion is predicted to become a minority
- church decline started long before Covid, and with Religion becoming increasingly political it has actually fractured denominations with migration and seperation of "liberal" Christians and "MAGA" Christians.
Another important not about church decline both in buildings and congregents... It becomes much harder for Religion to continue brainwashing Christians such as yourself when they don't attend.
Its what happened to me.
I was a former Catholic long time Atheist, went to most private Christian schools and surrounded by many Christian friends... But still ended up dropping my religious beliefs around highschool.
Now with Republicans trying to shove Christians nationalism across the country, it's not going to work.
Kids are more exposed to secular life... And reality, and if someone like me who was steeply raised Christian and went to mostly Christians schools broke out of Religon, what makes churches think school kids these days won't break out even faster or even accept the Religion forced on to them?
Let the religion go to die in the Bronze age where it belongs.
You don't need it
@@lloydfrancis9149 good to see my original and deeply written reply to you was deleted.
Here is a summary.
Your proseylytizing will not change anything.
You don't know what Atheism is
People are happier and more spiritual leaving Religion.
And no, pushing Christo-fascism across the country will not win people and their kids to Christ.
Religion is dying... Incidentally Capitalism will also soon go out the door.
@@lloydfrancis9149 "muh book says a thing, so there." Irrefutable proof, undeniable, really.
I recon nearly half of the comments here are either paid or trolls.
The true Church of Jesus Christ will be triumphant.
Who are you trying to convince?
Have you actually heard the reasons from the people who are leaving churches and eventually dropping religion?
Triumph over what, exactly? Seems a philosophy of excuse for the massive failures in almost every area society. All of which is of little consequence to belivers.