@@PiGstarcraft I just saw your first match on Winter's channel against the reapers. I think if you one gas and up speed on lings as soon as you can then you can kill the reapers. I just checked and with 2 hatch, gas, pool, evo, hatch speed upgrade finishes at 3:30 with 20 zerglings and 3 hatches good to go, minerals in the bank for another big batch of lings or a tech switch, and +1 attack finishes quickly after if you want to click that too. He only had 4 reapers at your base at that time. Classic zerg rush is back!
I noticed that especially. I'm thinking of playing now again. I might dominate tvt.. lol 15 years ago* 103-3-3 was my tvt (he disced last three:), before i went random. Definitely need a ladder somehow - even if it's old broodwar only? Or 3 ladders! One for the mixtures? Lol. Seems a no brainer for bw guys to jump on, enjoy the upgraded graphics, groups etc.
I think they also jacked up the stats on a lot of SC1 units. Like...the hydra range upgrade in SC1 was definitely +1 range not +2. Lurkers were 6 range in SC1 instead of 8.
In this mod BW Hydras are strong as hell, they reduced them to 1 supply as they should be but left the super fast attack speed AND gave them bonus damage to armored, their DPS is now VERY high to things that people may think are their counters (from an SC2 perspective). In fact they pretty much own anything in the air.
@@Konranjyoutai Queen is a make-work unit that just exists to give zerg more macro to manage. Inject and creep tumor are so tedious. Old zerg you just plant hatches everywhere and SWARM
@@maudiojunky I will never understand sc1 fans. The usual praise of sc1 is its mechanics are so much harder, because even the clunky engine adds to difficulty. Here you got a smart sc2 mechanic (inject, creep tumor) that adds to the macro requierement, and somehow its also bad. Btw much of RTS philosophy is make -work, you could automate much of the stuff, but then it would stop to be an rts, you wouldnt need speed.
Nitpick: SC1 Hydras don't have "bonus" damage vs armored - that is the full damage of the hydra as it was in SC1, this is just the best way to calculate it in the SC2 system. Hydras from SC1 are INTENDED to be big unit killers. That was their explicit role.
I feel most of the sc2 races after some games benefit mostly from early timings until the BW can build up. The longer the game goes tho for BW the more OP they can become
The transliteration of SC1's "Small, medium, and large" size tags with their "concussive, explosive, and normal" damage types doesn't perfectly transfer into SC2. specifically, the way that sc1 damage was calculated would result in tipping points of damage at certain upgrades (like the explosive damage of the hydra hitting a whole integer breakpoint at +2 against all small units) and having played with the mod for the last few days, I don't think those specific interactions are preserved. Also curious about psi-storm's damage difference and if the sc1 storm still does more damage. That said, this mod is still a ton of fun and I hope it becomes a popular game mode.
the storm is almost double the damage a second, it's INSANE haha, less cast range than sc2 storm and longer cast animation + really slow HT acceleration, but absolutely nuts damage
@@RodelIturalde I didn't say they good against scourge I said they do better than sc1 bc against it. Just having a warp ability should give you a hint.
also for reavers, they should talk to the guy that did the reaver mod where the scarabs have a bit of a dumb ai so you can actually micro somewhat against them
@@firestarter000001 Iremember in BW, scarabs would lock onto one target, and if the target was removed or pathing blocked, they would stall, then blow up no damage.
Maaan, BW drone sounds are so unique. Why did they have to undo everything in SC2? It's like they intentionally went out of their way to make it as unrecognizable as possible.
I've always said that SC1 Zerg would be ridiculously OP if you took away the 12 unit selection limit and so far this mod seems to confirm my beliefs 😂😂
I wonder if that would be possible to mod, so that all BW would be played like broodwar, with all bugs and features ;) I mean they realized that with remastered, but I guess that is just using the old weired code. In an sc2 engine that surely must be impossible, hm.
There was a hack back in the day that let you control all your units at once, I remember using it to troll this lobby called "clan void" back in the day and they thought I was some zerg god because how I was controlling such a large number of hydras at the same time. FUck I miss those days
Queens with their web ability alone can help take down BCs and other stuff. Their long range spawn broodlings is a garunteed tank killer. And dropping parasites on enemy units, especially without any restoration, is practically cheat mode
If you put 3 lurkers at the entrance to a slim ramp it kills infinite units going up the ramp in sc1. So any map with corner bases can be easily defended
@@PiGstarcraft Hellbats probably work fine, since Firebats work the same way. They make a fixed range series of damage boxes no matter how far away the enemy unit is.
What's the lurker range? BWs were quite short if I recall, think they were 1 range more than marine (or same range as bunker basically)? Just might be my imagination but they seemed quite far here (probably my imagination) EDIT: duh you answered that question at the end. Yeah they should get 6 range like in BW.
@@PiGstarcraft well they do attack much faster but for the same damage per hit as sc2. The speed feels a little faster off creep to me but slower than on creep.
SC2 BC is as ill prepared for scourge attacks as SC1 carrier is. SC1 BC is perfect for scourge,becasue they can one shot them easily. The SC1 BC vs SC2 BC are entirely different to the point that they only have the same name and general shape in common
Hydra being t1, Lurker being t2 units in broodwar and 12 starting workers practically pause all of sc2 terran bio timing. Marine cant trade with hydra without medivac and no science vessels means you can always get blown up by hold position lurkers.
Defiler are so OP infestor doesn't have nothing on it. The way to counter defiler is splash damage of the siege tanks if I remember correctly to get through the dark swarm. Protoss can build zealots and benefit from them since they're melee.
The counter to defilers back in the day was irradiate from science vessels. It was a guranteed kill on a defiler since zerg had no healing abilities. Siege tank splash could deal damage inside of dark swarm but only its splash damage. Firebats could fight completely fine inside dark swarm though. I would assume the same applies to hellbats.
What's the ultralisk's attack in sc1? I think in sc2 fully upgraded its 44 damage but not sure about sc1. Also ultras in sc2 have 100 hp more so they possibly are a better version right? 😅
@@K3rriganZerg Yes SC1 Ultras are really mediocre compared to their SC2 counterparts. They really need Dark Swarm and Plague to help them get in and kill stuff. They did receive some buffs in the mod to try to make them more threatening. Smaller size, more damage.
Nope. Dark Swarm is just insane, and scourge often discourage capital ships. Why go into greater spire and then make Mutas and then moph in devourers when you don't have an answer to dark swarm?
Scourge already work against capital ships, if you need to stop them from flying away, Ensnare. Devourers are only slightly more useful against "fighter" air units that have low armor so Muta bounces get more value.
Devourers pair well with mutalisks but are more useful against things like vikings and other mutalisks. however I do feel sc1 spire units would definitely struggle to deal with Phoenix.
When deciding between range and speed for hydras, just ask yourself if you are about to defend or attack. If you're going to need to defend, get range. If you want to go on attack, get movement speed.
Maybe should apply some of that sc1 hydra to sc2 hydras. Something to make them a unit worth building if the balance council isn't going to fix microbial shroud, at least make hydras a viable unit to give that spell a viable use case
Remember that scourge exist, they are a super cheap way of getting anything annoying in the air (in BW vessels and dropships, in SC2 vikings and liberators). In BW you almost always get a spire, regardless of matchup, because at the very least you want scourge to kill something asap (vs Toss you can snipe their observers and then contain them with lurkers, it's insanely annoying). Also, generally you get hydra speed before range so that they rally faster.
@@mwperk02 Well, if you are getting hydra upgrades before spire, you are doing a contain. From there, the opponent can't scout if you are continuing to mass hydra for an attack or you are droning and going lair. The reasoning behind getting speed firs it to reduce rally time because otherwise the opponent might bust out before your next round of units gets to the front and go for your main. The only case in which you go range first is if you are using a couple of hydras to break their wall so you can kill him with mass ling, but if you are doing only hydra, always speed first. This is all from the perspective of BW ZvP, which is the only matchup where you get hydra early, maybe there is a different case in some EVO matchup, but I can't think of one.
The Lurker range is supposed to compete with the tank and reaver range I think. I guess when SC1 first came out the Guardian was supposed to be a defensive siege unit, but it doesn't behave that way at all in practice. So in BW they gave Zerg Lurkers to be more of a unit that can halt waves after waves of units. That's my headcanon at least 😆
yeah I think the 8 range here might be a bit high compared to the super short range on the actual SC1 lurker though, with how early you can get them. Might need a -1 or -2. Can still do a fighting retreat to slow pushes down with them really well, but wouldn't be quite so powerful
@@PiGstarcraft o w8, I had it completely wrong. BW Lurkers only had 6 range compared to SC2 Lurkers which have 8 at start and 10 range with the range upgrade. Hek wow I think the range measurements can be compared this way between BW and SC2.
Broodwar Hydras did some nasty dps. despite dealing half damage they effectively countered even small air units like mutalisks thanks to being so cheap. They could also absolutely butcher battlecruisers or carriers in the open.
I think one of the differences comes down to what a "micro intensive unit" is in SC2 these tend to be things like vipers or ravensor maybe tempests in certain situations. In BW, it meant things like siege tanks, dragoons and lurkers.
Technically every unit in BW has to be micro'd, just that the APM requirement from using a over a dozen spellcasters in an attack was too annoying for people to do on a regular basis. Therefore the spellcasters were really strong since you could only feasibly use like 4 storms in a fight.
Is it just like a gentleman's agreement to not kill SC1 zerg with early marine/medivac/tank pushes? Because I don't see how they could ever hold that off without banelings and queens and their speedlings are worse. It should hit before their bullshit units come out in any appreciable numbers.
Thing to remember is..... Terran SC1 medics heal WAY faster than medivacs....marines were basically invincible against basic zerg armies and you could have medics much earlier. So in comparison its kind of a field day for the SC1 zerg, they don't HAVE to go lurkers to actually survive early pushes
No, I think they were playing for real both times. He did try the reapers which is pretty standard. Not sure marine/tank would have been that much better. Winter has reached grand master with random many times, so he knows the metas pretty well, I'm sure he made pretty good calls in those 2 games.
Hydras are a Tier 1 unit in bw and they get a plus 2 range upgrade for defense if you need it. the zergling also deals much more dps by itself. you can also get lurkers out really early so you have effective splash damage anti air and a much higher dps melee unit thats only marginally slower than an on creep sc2 zergling.
@@mwperk02 Yeah I've played BW and I've played SC2. Admittedly, I haven't had the chance to play the mod yet and I have heard they made balance changes to the BW stuff to make them work in the SC2 engine. My personal suspicion is that SC2's early game bullshit is probably unbeatable for BW races with the most egregious being SC2 Zerg vs SC1 Zerg. It's a 4fun mod right now and I think that's cool, but if people start hard optimizing it... doesn't look good for the BW races. On the flipside though, I think the BW races run over SC2 in the late game with their INSANE spellcasters so... if they can make it there, they win lol.
I think ZvT in SC2 is in real need of Dark Swarm and Irridiate. It's such a booring turtle matchup in late game. Terran can't move out on the map, Zerg can't attack efficiently and it becomes a resource race.
Two questions for everyone: 1. As BW Terran, how do you deal with SC2 Ultralisks? 2. Why do BW ghosts feel like trash? All in all I've been loving this mod, it's been the most fun I've had in SC2 for a while.
blizzaed should make a new star craft were time travel is involved and they cvan mix the new tecgh and old tech that would be fun like a alternater universe
its amazing how when u see sc2 bs zerg sc1.... sc1 zerg has such an easier time defending vs sc2. sc2 zerg is gimped by the stupid queen. its amazing how usually the sc2 races need to be on defense vs sc1 zergs. definitely the zerg swarm lives in sc1 and sc2 its kind of sad how weak sc2 zergs are
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Well, removing the bad pathfinding and control group limitations really buffed up SC1 units.
selecting all hatcheries at once on a control group feels so insanely good
@@PiGstarcraft I just saw your first match on Winter's channel against the reapers. I think if you one gas and up speed on lings as soon as you can then you can kill the reapers. I just checked and with 2 hatch, gas, pool, evo, hatch speed upgrade finishes at 3:30 with 20 zerglings and 3 hatches good to go, minerals in the bank for another big batch of lings or a tech switch, and +1 attack finishes quickly after if you want to click that too. He only had 4 reapers at your base at that time. Classic zerg rush is back!
I noticed that especially. I'm thinking of playing now again. I might dominate tvt.. lol 15 years ago* 103-3-3 was my tvt (he disced last three:), before i went random.
Definitely need a ladder somehow - even if it's old broodwar only? Or 3 ladders! One for the mixtures? Lol.
Seems a no brainer for bw guys to jump on, enjoy the upgraded graphics, groups etc.
I think they also jacked up the stats on a lot of SC1 units.
Like...the hydra range upgrade in SC1 was definitely +1 range not +2. Lurkers were 6 range in SC1 instead of 8.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath I think they had to match ranges to SC2 units for balance reasons.
I just looked more carefully at the art and realized how much work went into this mod. Insane.
Blows my mind that stormgate etc are being owned by sc1 in sc2 format. Its what we needed
In this mod BW Hydras are strong as hell, they reduced them to 1 supply as they should be but left the super fast attack speed AND gave them bonus damage to armored, their DPS is now VERY high to things that people may think are their counters (from an SC2 perspective). In fact they pretty much own anything in the air.
As they should be. No reason Zerg ever needed the Queen to be an attacking unit.
@@Konranjyoutai Queen is a make-work unit that just exists to give zerg more macro to manage. Inject and creep tumor are so tedious. Old zerg you just plant hatches everywhere and SWARM
@@maudiojunky I will never understand sc1 fans. The usual praise of sc1 is its mechanics are so much harder, because even the clunky engine adds to difficulty. Here you got a smart sc2 mechanic (inject, creep tumor) that adds to the macro requierement, and somehow its also bad. Btw much of RTS philosophy is make -work, you could automate much of the stuff, but then it would stop to be an rts, you wouldnt need speed.
@@firestarter000001 okay coach
Nitpick: SC1 Hydras don't have "bonus" damage vs armored - that is the full damage of the hydra as it was in SC1, this is just the best way to calculate it in the SC2 system.
Hydras from SC1 are INTENDED to be big unit killers. That was their explicit role.
20:51 is what I was looking for
I feel most of the sc2 races after some games benefit mostly from early timings until the BW can build up. The longer the game goes tho for BW the more OP they can become
The transliteration of SC1's "Small, medium, and large" size tags with their "concussive, explosive, and normal" damage types doesn't perfectly transfer into SC2. specifically, the way that sc1 damage was calculated would result in tipping points of damage at certain upgrades (like the explosive damage of the hydra hitting a whole integer breakpoint at +2 against all small units) and having played with the mod for the last few days, I don't think those specific interactions are preserved. Also curious about psi-storm's damage difference and if the sc1 storm still does more damage.
That said, this mod is still a ton of fun and I hope it becomes a popular game mode.
SC1 Psi Storm in the mod does 120 over 3 seconds vs SC2 Psi Storm doing 80 over 4 seconds. PiG tested it out yesterday.
Yeah, explosive was buffed to do 62.5% to Light due to the armor problem.
the storm is almost double the damage a second, it's INSANE haha, less cast range than sc2 storm and longer cast animation + really slow HT acceleration, but absolutely nuts damage
@@PiGstarcraft Oh so that's why it seems Marines die a lot faster.
@@PiGstarcraft fk yeah, thanks for checking man
Its funny how the BW-era BCs could one shot scourge but the SC2 versions are hapless prey for them.
I think sc2 bc does better vs scourge.
sc1 bc have slow attack speed.
@@DinmaSalitzeyno, sc2 bcs suck against scourge as you saw here.
@@RodelIturalde I didn't say they good against scourge I said they do better than sc1 bc against it. Just having a warp ability should give you a hint.
The crossover mod is the best thing to have happen to this game in ages. It's so much fun to watch.
Report sc2: our technology has gone back more than 100 years
These ultralisks look so much cooler.
also for reavers, they should talk to the guy that did the reaver mod where the scarabs have a bit of a dumb ai so you can actually micro somewhat against them
Imho scarabs move to fast, if they were slower you could micro maybe. Atm they seem the most broken to me
@@firestarter000001 Iremember in BW, scarabs would lock onto one target, and if the target was removed or pathing blocked, they would stall, then blow up no damage.
I had a few tens of hours in SC1 as a kid. Seeing this brings back blurry nostalgic memories
Maaan, BW drone sounds are so unique. Why did they have to undo everything in SC2? It's like they intentionally went out of their way to make it as unrecognizable as possible.
Not having to spread creep or inject hatch is the best QOL ever.
I've always said that SC1 Zerg would be ridiculously OP if you took away the 12 unit selection limit and so far this mod seems to confirm my beliefs 😂😂
I wonder if that would be possible to mod, so that all BW would be played like broodwar, with all bugs and features ;) I mean they realized that with remastered, but I guess that is just using the old weired code. In an sc2 engine that surely must be impossible, hm.
There was a hack back in the day that let you control all your units at once, I remember using it to troll this lobby called "clan void" back in the day and they thought I was some zerg god because how I was controlling such a large number of hydras at the same time. FUck I miss those days
@smallwisdom8819 that would be interesting! I'm sure it's technically possible in some way, although may require a modification to the engine.
@@keirgt2289 ha! That would be a terrifying sight to see for sure
I'm not sure how the mod works but since firebats aren't a thing, perhaps the counter to dark swarm is to go either hellions/hellbats?
Yup, Mines work too.
@@Appletank8 o dang, the spell dmg.
Queens with their web ability alone can help take down BCs and other stuff.
Their long range spawn broodlings is a garunteed tank killer.
And dropping parasites on enemy units, especially without any restoration, is practically cheat mode
If you put 3 lurkers at the entrance to a slim ramp it kills infinite units going up the ramp in sc1. So any map with corner bases can be easily defended
hellbats should work against dark swarm, right?
their splash would definitely work, not sure about the damage to the unit they're actually attacking since it is a short ranged attack
@@PiGstarcraft Hellbats probably work fine, since Firebats work the same way. They make a fixed range series of damage boxes no matter how far away the enemy unit is.
@@PiGstarcraft 18:18 When the Zerg player has gone crazy. Also perfect Zergling impression.
What's the lurker range? BWs were quite short if I recall, think they were 1 range more than marine (or same range as bunker basically)? Just might be my imagination but they seemed quite far here (probably my imagination)
EDIT: duh you answered that question at the end. Yeah they should get 6 range like in BW.
Can you queue upgrades as SC1 zerg?
That would be insane.
Mhmm I feel like you could. Been a while since I played tho
You can't queue upgrades in the SC1 engine, in this mod you can queue upgrades as the SC1 races because it's in the SC2 engine
yep!
do "sc1" zerglings feels different?
yeah the damage feels higher but they're a little slower and don't get a movement buff on creep!
@@PiGstarcraft well they do attack much faster but for the same damage per hit as sc2. The speed feels a little faster off creep to me but slower than on creep.
I have to say, I like the SC1 sounds.
SC2 BC is as ill prepared for scourge attacks as SC1 carrier is. SC1 BC is perfect for scourge,becasue they can one shot them easily. The SC1 BC vs SC2 BC are entirely different to the point that they only have the same name and general shape in common
I feel surely the pro Terrans for SC2 would have too much 2 Medivac hit squad pressure for a lot of BW Zerg to play around right?
Hydra being t1, Lurker being t2 units in broodwar and 12 starting workers practically pause all of sc2 terran bio timing. Marine cant trade with hydra without medivac and no science vessels means you can always get blown up by hold position lurkers.
they say BW zerg is the race that won't transition well the most over SC2 engine. So looking forward to you playing this game and see how it develops.
I can't find this in arcade. How do I play this?
its a mod. Load up any melee map and create with mod search for SC: Evo Complete
I loooove to see all the pros playing this Mod ❤
No control group limitations on scourges is terrifying.
Defiler are so OP infestor doesn't have nothing on it. The way to counter defiler is splash damage of the siege tanks if I remember correctly to get through the dark swarm. Protoss can build zealots and benefit from them since they're melee.
The counter to defilers back in the day was irradiate from science vessels. It was a guranteed kill on a defiler since zerg had no healing abilities. Siege tank splash could deal damage inside of dark swarm but only its splash damage. Firebats could fight completely fine inside dark swarm though. I would assume the same applies to hellbats.
What's the ultralisk's attack in sc1? I think in sc2 fully upgraded its 44 damage but not sure about sc1. Also ultras in sc2 have 100 hp more so they possibly are a better version right? 😅
Right now, 25 DMG but no splash.
sc1 ultras really suck, but they benefit from the fact it's hard to control anything in sc1, so you have random units fighting across the map
@Appletank8 oh wow that really sucks, the only good thing was the insane speed buff they got 50% increase right.
@@zzasdfwas they be fighting with their own workers in the background n shit 🤣😂
@@K3rriganZerg Yes SC1 Ultras are really mediocre compared to their SC2 counterparts. They really need Dark Swarm and Plague to help them get in and kill stuff. They did receive some buffs in the mod to try to make them more threatening. Smaller size, more damage.
Wonder if Devourers would be worth it against capital ships
Nope. Dark Swarm is just insane, and scourge often discourage capital ships. Why go into greater spire and then make Mutas and then moph in devourers when you don't have an answer to dark swarm?
Scourge already work against capital ships, if you need to stop them from flying away, Ensnare. Devourers are only slightly more useful against "fighter" air units that have low armor so Muta bounces get more value.
Scourge + discourage = discourge
Devourers pair well with mutalisks but are more useful against things like vikings and other mutalisks. however I do feel sc1 spire units would definitely struggle to deal with Phoenix.
When deciding between range and speed for hydras, just ask yourself if you are about to defend or attack. If you're going to need to defend, get range. If you want to go on attack, get movement speed.
Dark shroud should be like an 80% damage reduction or something like that because damn that’s way too broken.
Maybe should apply some of that sc1 hydra to sc2 hydras. Something to make them a unit worth building
if the balance council isn't going to fix microbial shroud, at least make hydras a viable unit to give that spell a viable use case
PiG not noticing that he misplaced a hatchery while staring at it hurts
I miss scourges. That battlecruiser went boom.
I wonder if there is a popular Warcraft 3 like mod, with heroes and creeping. That would be a lot of fun as well.
There is one for Sc2. It was somewhat big, but they mostly used the models for RP maps after.
Remember that scourge exist, they are a super cheap way of getting anything annoying in the air (in BW vessels and dropships, in SC2 vikings and liberators). In BW you almost always get a spire, regardless of matchup, because at the very least you want scourge to kill something asap (vs Toss you can snipe their observers and then contain them with lurkers, it's insanely annoying). Also, generally you get hydra speed before range so that they rally faster.
Speed is better on attack while range is better for defensive play imo. Having both is just the best though.
@@mwperk02 Well, if you are getting hydra upgrades before spire, you are doing a contain. From there, the opponent can't scout if you are continuing to mass hydra for an attack or you are droning and going lair. The reasoning behind getting speed firs it to reduce rally time because otherwise the opponent might bust out before your next round of units gets to the front and go for your main. The only case in which you go range first is if you are using a couple of hydras to break their wall so you can kill him with mass ling, but if you are doing only hydra, always speed first. This is all from the perspective of BW ZvP, which is the only matchup where you get hydra early, maybe there is a different case in some EVO matchup, but I can't think of one.
If they could make an 8-player Free-For-All map like the Big Game Hunters in BW, that would be down right awesome!
There is a version of that map in SC2, I wonder if they could adapt the mod to it?
You can just attach the mod to any map in custom gomes
the hunters + sc: evo complete
Thank god they fixed the sunken colony model
Looking at this BW overlord gives me triple dejavu. Why in some games it looks like BW Overlord and in others like SC2 one?
The Lurker range is supposed to compete with the tank and reaver range I think.
I guess when SC1 first came out the Guardian was supposed to be a defensive siege unit, but it doesn't behave that way at all in practice. So in BW they gave Zerg Lurkers to be more of a unit that can halt waves after waves of units. That's my headcanon at least 😆
yeah I think the 8 range here might be a bit high compared to the super short range on the actual SC1 lurker though, with how early you can get them. Might need a -1 or -2. Can still do a fighting retreat to slow pushes down with them really well, but wouldn't be quite so powerful
@@PiGstarcraft
o w8, I had it completely wrong.
BW Lurkers only had 6 range compared to SC2 Lurkers which have 8 at start and 10 range with the range upgrade.
Hek wow
I think the range measurements can be compared this way between BW and SC2.
In BW the unsieged Siege Tank and Reavers outranges the Lurker. If 8 range is equivalent range of a siege unit like Reavers then it's a buff.
@@abunja tru tru tru, I thought the Lurkers in BW had more range than the SC2 version.
Guardians, Devourers, Lurkers, and Defilers were all added in Brood War. The Guardian was not available in vanilla SC1.
Broodwar should get their mineral/gas return amounts when mining.
glad to see more of this
I'm glad everyones having fun with this unbalanced mess, but I'll stick to my midly less unbalanced mess that is SC2.
I've always found Broodwar Hydralisks are pretty decent at anti-air.
Wraiths and Scouts also suck at attacking ground tho. BW has no Banshees or Phoenix 😆
Especially because of dark swarm.
Broodwar Hydras did some nasty dps. despite dealing half damage they effectively countered even small air units like mutalisks thanks to being so cheap. They could also absolutely butcher battlecruisers or carriers in the open.
@@Broockle Scouts sucked in general. Far to expensive for the units stat spread.
@@mwperk02 while true, if Hydras had to deal with Phoenix or Banshee it wouldn't be as one sided.
I think one of the differences comes down to what a "micro intensive unit" is in SC2 these tend to be things like vipers or ravensor maybe tempests in certain situations. In BW, it meant things like siege tanks, dragoons and lurkers.
Technically every unit in BW has to be micro'd, just that the APM requirement from using a over a dozen spellcasters in an attack was too annoying for people to do on a regular basis. Therefore the spellcasters were really strong since you could only feasibly use like 4 storms in a fight.
Dark Swarm OP :)
Didn't see a Plague this game 😆
so brood war vs SC2 is specific bullshit units vs cancerous harassment units.
seems legit.
Is it just like a gentleman's agreement to not kill SC1 zerg with early marine/medivac/tank pushes? Because I don't see how they could ever hold that off without banelings and queens and their speedlings are worse. It should hit before their bullshit units come out in any appreciable numbers.
Thing to remember is..... Terran SC1 medics heal WAY faster than medivacs....marines were basically invincible against basic zerg armies and you could have medics much earlier. So in comparison its kind of a field day for the SC1 zerg, they don't HAVE to go lurkers to actually survive early pushes
No, I think they were playing for real both times.
He did try the reapers which is pretty standard. Not sure marine/tank would have been that much better.
Winter has reached grand master with random many times, so he knows the metas pretty well, I'm sure he made pretty good calls in those 2 games.
Hydras are a Tier 1 unit in bw and they get a plus 2 range upgrade for defense if you need it. the zergling also deals much more dps by itself. you can also get lurkers out really early so you have effective splash damage anti air and a much higher dps melee unit thats only marginally slower than an on creep sc2 zergling.
@@mwperk02 Yeah I've played BW and I've played SC2. Admittedly, I haven't had the chance to play the mod yet and I have heard they made balance changes to the BW stuff to make them work in the SC2 engine.
My personal suspicion is that SC2's early game bullshit is probably unbeatable for BW races with the most egregious being SC2 Zerg vs SC1 Zerg. It's a 4fun mod right now and I think that's cool, but if people start hard optimizing it... doesn't look good for the BW races.
On the flipside though, I think the BW races run over SC2 in the late game with their INSANE spellcasters so... if they can make it there, they win lol.
I think ZvT in SC2 is in real need of Dark Swarm and Irridiate. It's such a booring turtle matchup in late game. Terran can't move out on the map, Zerg can't attack efficiently and it becomes a resource race.
Now, patch SC2 with BROOD WAR!!!
That was fun!!
Give me sc1 v sc2
There's a show match in AfreecaTV where SC1 and SC2 pros compete with each other. I just watched it 14 hours ago
@@abunja ok thx
Yo play sc1 protoss then mind control an enemy builder and make 2 armies.
sadly that won't work in sc2. You don't get seperate supply control and psi for reach race.
it should be SC 1 remaster instead of SC 2
Two questions for everyone: 1. As BW Terran, how do you deal with SC2 Ultralisks? 2. Why do BW ghosts feel like trash?
All in all I've been loving this mod, it's been the most fun I've had in SC2 for a while.
BW ghosts have always been very weak. Their abilities are much lesser in sc2 than in BW too.
SC1 reapers are better than SC2 Valkyries. Prove me wrong.
winter is beep boop robot man i wont watch this
SC1 zerg are just better in every way
This video could've been 5 mins not 20. Don't have irl time for this. Sorry
is this a brood war map sure looks like it
so basically sc1 is just a superior game in terms of balance and units not sucking ass
Ha Zerg was OP and I vote for it still is!
blizzaed should make a new star craft were time travel is involved and they cvan mix the new tecgh and old tech that would be fun like a alternater universe
i think thss game is too fast paced i prefer the slower build up of brood war
its amazing how when u see sc2 bs zerg sc1.... sc1 zerg has such an easier time defending vs sc2. sc2 zerg is gimped by the stupid queen. its amazing how usually the sc2 races need to be on defense vs sc1 zergs. definitely the zerg swarm lives in sc1 and sc2 its kind of sad how weak sc2 zergs are