I think the big thing about Tergrid (and apologies if I missed this getting mentioned), is that even if Tergrid gets killed so often she can no longer be cast, the Tergrid deck is still a pile of discard and sac effects, and the Tergrid player isn't just going to sit there not casting those spells.
Yeah I have a tergrid deck that is almost cedh level and basically turns 1 or 2 is u prevent your opponents from playing the game with sac and discard and then 3 or 4 is tergrid plus a big swing like memory jar or fart cloud. It is definitely a commander not meant for low level games but if u have the rule zero talk about power level it has never felt op compared to my other friends decks at that level.
Also tergrid isn't just oh I stole everything I win. You have a bunch of random pieces that you need to combo together to figure out the win. It is a completely different experience everytime I play the deck which I really enjoy. Honestly I have never have had an easy win bc sometimes I had to fight tooth and nail bc if I have her on the board it is a 3 v 1 everytime which is always hard.
25:09 Hear hear!! Interaction and back-and-forth is the heart of the game. Even if it’s not *great* interaction, if it’s *interesting* interaction, the game wins. The trick is to keep it interesting. A good (non-c)EDH game should be like a dance or like an exciting, or at least funny, story.
Exactly. People play Shooter video games for the action, the combat, and the ability to feel that your actions and your decision making gave you a distinct advantage. Magic is the same thing to tabletop gamers, it just doesn't require you to aim with a stupid joystick. Nothing beats the rush of quietly letting your opponent pop off and then countering their game-winning spell at the last minute.
It can still be interesting, without shutting down many ways of playing the game. The same can be said for players that feel they need to use Norn to stop other players. Couldn't they have simply used from-hand interaction to stop the greedy player, without stopping an essential aspect (ETB for permanents) for all players? This is why I do not like Praetors for the balance of EDH. I know it is a vast format existing in a chaotic pool of possibility. But there are ways to make sure everyone can play many things, answer some things, and not feel locked out at the same time.
Its the same for cedh. You dont play cedh for the turn 2 wins even tho they are insanely satisfying to pull of. You play it for the slugfests and back and forth interaction...
I like how after all this Elesh Norn hasn't ruined the format and still isn't banned. So much for the rules committee knowing what's best for the format
The spells like Fierce Guardianship shouldn't have been free if your commander is out, they should be discounted for the highest mana value commander you have out. So like a 6 mana counter spell that is discounted down, which would encourage higher mana value commanders.
Agreed, it should of had a very high base mana cost encouraging higher cmc to gain the benefit from or at least make casting the card painful without the discount.
Maybe it's just me, but this is exactly why I try to diversify my "answers" in decks. Synergie is fun and important, but you need some variance in your interaction, so your deck can run smooth.
Yea i think when people say "X color really needs Y" those cards should be heavily invested in the color, not easily splash able in any X white/red whatever decks. So the good white card draw effects should be ATLEAST double white if not triple. Smothering tithe: 3 white 1 colorless. Because what people really want IS dumb OP staples that in mulitcolor decks.
One that I'm surprised didn't come up was Void Mirror. Everyone was so sure that card would destroy everything and at this point I don't think I've seen anyone ever play it.
There was complaining, but it was mostly Modern Tron & Cascade players with a few Legacy players thrown in. I didn't hear a peep from Commander players.
I feel like most hate pieces that are good get a huge hoopla when they come out but from what I've noticed is most players don't like playing hate pieces. The ones who do like to tend to play them all. Low key, you should try it against an eldrazi player and watch them cry.
I think its funny because its been seeing some play in eternal formats bc there's enough sticker sheets to where it's always mana positive, and sometimes better than seething song
I feel like Opposition Agent is so easy to remove that it's not that problematic. It's also punishing the thing that people seem to hate about commander, which is running too many tutors.
People aren't against tutors, they are against other people tutoring... 🤣 I like playing "fair" stax. Confounding Conundrum; Aven Mindcensor; Lavinia, Azorius Renegade etc. And all the people who usually complain about other people ramping and tutoringing all of the sudden pick me as archenemy just because they can't jam their big 8 mana Timmy threat on turn 5.
@oelboy I hate tutors in commander, don't run any in my decks unless they are thematically relevant. Like, for my Garth the Zookeeper deck if there were tutors that reference zoos I'd run them, but there aren't so I don't. Or for my Spirit of the Night 1 creature deck, if there was a tutor that said, "as long as you control only 1 creature) I'd run it but it doesn't exist so I don't. Hell, even in my almost-cEDH Hinata deck I don't run tutors. If someone complains about tutors and then gets mad when their's is shut down, they're just assholes you shouldn't play with cause fuck hypocrites.
I think the biggest problem with Elesh Norn is the cost. Not that it's 5 mana, but that it's only a single coloured mana. Every single one of them costs double coloured mana: Ebon Praetor: 4BB (from Fallen Empires, not a Phyrexian Praetor) Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: 5WW Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor: 1BB Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur: 8UU Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant: 5UU Sanguine Praetor: 6BB (from Guildpact, not a Phyrexian Praetor) Sheoldred, the Apocalypse: 2BB Sheoldred, Whispering One: 5BB Urabrask the Hidden: 3RR Urabrask, Heretic Praetor: 3RR Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider: 4GG Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger: 6GG This makes Elesh Norn far easier to cast in multicoloured decks in all formats than any other roughly similar CMC praetor, which to my mind is the biggest problem. You can splash to get Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines.
@@enmanuelrondon9700 True, but you can cast her far more reliably. Double coloured mana cards are more difficult to get the mana for, because you only need that ONE land of the correct colour. If you're playing Simic, splashing that one extra land to get Elesh Norn is easy. Hell, you might not even need it if you're playing mana dorks. Somberwald Sage, Birds of Paradise, Sylvan Caryatid, Noble Hierarch and so on. Yes, those can be used for any other colour commander, but you need two of them on the table to play Sheoldred or Urubrask in Simic. That what I mean when I say you can splash Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines.
I think that the uproar against new Norn came from JLK's deck on Game Knights, like people were aware of the power level, but (at least for me) the prision aspect of all the etb exile effects in white was missed, and that deck was nothing but O Rings. I don't think that it should be banned tho. On Jeweled Lotus, I think that it's bad as a design and mid as a card. The strategies that are made better with it are already so much better than everything else
Yeah that deck was sooo oppressive. Not sure if it's OP cos it's still just a creature. But I certainly didn't expect it to do what it did. I was expecting a value deck, not a control deck
Tbh I think Phil's takes about not wanting to run ways to deal with Torpor Orb effects is exactly what the others were talking about. I personally dont have much fun when my opponent pops off with busted mana acceleration and card draw and blink effects turn 4 and draws their whole deck with chulane or whatever. So I think its fair for me to run some pieces that shut down those effects. They can be removed if you didnt build your deck super greedily. I guess Phil's take to me sounds like "I dont want to have to consider what other players are doing" and idk, if thats the ideal attitude then why should I care if other people are affected by Elesh Norn? Everyone should be working together to have a fun experience in commander, and that means realizing that if you build your deck such that when it "does its thing" you auto win, maybe you cant complain when people interact with you on that axis. Just some thoughts.
Being forced into playing usually more efficient and powerful removal just sounds like it forces more "auto-include" situations. You don't usually run a card like Fiend Hunter in a generic Wx deck, but you can potentially squeeze extra value out of it in a blink deck so you might run it over a generic removal card like Swords to Plowshares. If something like the new Norn is crazy popular then that deck can no longer rely on Fiend Hunter and has to go down the generic creature removal StP/PtE path. I don't think the new Norn is crazy powerful or anything, it is just something to think about.
Oh I do run catch all answers in my deck, I just try to make them fit the theme. If my Lonis deck can’t counter the Norn, I can Commit // Memory it, but it also synergizes with Lonis’s ability (in this case I could steal the Norn for myself if I sacrifice 7 clues). In some decks I run generic removal like Beast Within, but it always feels better/is more fun if it fits the deck’s gameplan. I wouldn’t want to start every deck with a removal/interaction kit of the same cards. Again, not advocating for banning Elesh Norn, she’s just another must remove threat
@@BrewersKitchen Yeah I get that, I just follow the philosophy that if your deck is super weak to torpor orb maybe you should have ways to remove it that dont also fold to torpor orb 😅. Im not entirely unbiased myself lol as an avowed torpor orb enjoyer. Big fan btw, no hate.
@@BrewersKitchen Definitely share that feeling - I built a janky Karona vows/curses deck, and getting to play all the niche and bizarre enchantment-based removal was a cornerstone of what made the deckbuilding fun. Maybe what we really need is a Trinisphere in a super-yolked body, like a 3/4 with flying and lifelink and ward {2}. We need to hate on cheap removal staples!
I think a lot of people have these feelings because they entered magic through commander. If you come from 1v1, interaction is a huge part of the game.
@@casteanpreswyn7528 it’s only in one color which I would think wouldn’t make it better than Yarok. I think we’ll see it in the 99 a lot but not as much as a commander once people see how un-fun it is.
@David Armstrong as a commander it's really strong but most pods run enough removal to deal with it so it costs 17. In the 99, it's literally a must run if you have white. As a commander it's ridiculously strong, in the 99 it's the best card in your deck. Also, it's the same cmc, better body, better effect, and has fewer color pips compared to Yarok. It's a straight upgrade.
I think it's because the amount of time you spend not affecting the game once you've had your main engine or ability to play spells disabled is much longer in 4 player pods vs. 1 on 1 matches.
Elesh norn is definitely not bannable, but it is accidentally pretty oppressive. People will run it as another copy of panharmonicon, however, it shuts off a lot of cards and even decks. As long as people realize it can be oppressive, interaction and/or pregame convos should manage to keep the play experience fun.
And this is one of the points Sheldon tried to make (whether or not you agree with him) that distinguishes Norn from Opposition Agent. When you play Opposition Agent, you're trying to play a powerful hate piece. On the other hand, more casual players will run Norn as a Panharmonicon type effect/commander, and happen to also have a powerful hate piece that may not fit their group's typically expectations. I can understand his concern, even if I don't agree with him about the level of problem it's likely to create.
I really don't see Elesh Norn being a big issue. I agree that it is pushed too far in terms of general efficiency. It's a 5 mana 4/7 creature with vigilance, that is also a stax piece. This is similar to cards like new Shoeldred, which are threats both in their abilities and in their strength as a creature. I don't like cards being designed this way, but I still don't see Elesh Norn breaking anything. It's going to be annoying for sure, but it's no harder to kill than any other annoying card, and having it as a commander limits you to a single color. While I agree with some of the "generically good" concerns that the article they referenced discussed, I also have to mention that it seems confusing to say that about Elesh Norn, but not other cards. A rules committee member wants to ban Elesh Norn for being a generically good white creature, but we still have Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault in the format? Sol Ring reduces the deck size in every deck, and introduces much more sameness than Elesh Norn would...
i have a few decks that don't run Sol Ring because it's not needed, i have all of 4 decks out of 46 that run Mana Crypt, and 2 of them are cEDH, the others are Chulane and Mono White angles because they need it and the life loss doesn't matter, and Mana Vault is only in my cEDH decks. Those cards aren't must haves, you just decide that you have to play them. And the Sol Ring auto include so reduces the deck size argument is so ridiculous anyway. In a commander deck you run 40-50 lands/ramp/rocks right? do you complain that the battle bond lands are auto includes? how about shock lands? oh and the OG duals are must haves because your deck is strictly worse without them if you're not a mono deck. what about mono black decks Cabal Coffers is an auto include should be banned then.
@@atk9989 I didn't say that format staples are a problem, I only said that that argument applies to cards like Sol Ring much more than they apply to cards like new Elesh Norn. Therefore, if they want to ban Elesh Norn for those reasons, there are a number of other cards that must go as well. For the record, I would be content with either outcome. Ban more, or ban less, don't do nothing.
I just don't like that it is designed to be a commander staple. If you think about the importance of the card in the lore, for the set, so on it's actually quite a boring effect. Those mana rocks are just incidentally too much value for commander, they don't bore me because while they are auto-includes, it's an incidental occurrence and cheap stuff that makes mana SHOULD be boring.
@@Spaced92 I agree on the "designed for Cmmander" issue. Some of the legendary creatures they print are really cool for Commander, but they make too many of them too good in Commander for no reason.
Ofc it wont be a problem its a expensive creature that dies to any removal or boardwipe. If the rc should decide to ban it the whole magic community should stop following them.
While I agree that Commander players need to run more interaction playing "more removal" also leads to playing more staples, more effective and efficient cards which does least to decks looking more similar.
@@jamesgratz4771 yeah, I know. My point is that cards like New Norn, who I think is still fine, push thematic decks even further to running non-thematic removal. It's not something that should lead to cards being banned but it is something to consider when people talk about a card having a "homogenizing effect".
Does removal count as interaction? Isn't it very specifically a way to AVOID having to interact? To my mind, the spells you cast mattering is interaction, while removal just means that spell doesn't matter. When I think of interaction, I think of sequences of events that play out between players because of what's on the table. I see your board, and instead of making the value play, I play a card that is a better matchup against your board state even if it might not optimally tap out my mana. Drop Bloodthirsty Aerialist because of your 2/2 flyer even though I could have cast a 5 drop instead. That's interaction. My choices are affected by the gamestate. Whereas heavy removal decks tend to avoid changing their gameplan according to the game state. I'll play what I'm going to play because I can just get rid of anything my opponent would do that I don't like anyway. I don't have to worry about how my plays interact with the board, because my removal prevents it from mattering.
I think Sheldon's issue with Elesh Norn is that to him Commander only works if people have empathy and don't play busted or unfun cards and elesh norn is an effect people want stapled to incidental hate that is the exact opposite of what people want.
I think the reason Sheldon is worried about elesh norn is people will play it for the panharmonicon ability and won’t be thinking about the Stax effect that stops a lot of cards in decks and people might not want to play against that and normally wouldn’t because people don’t play those Stax pieces
My two cents on Opposition Agent are that it should say something akin to "If a nonland source would cause an opponent to search." That way, it stops tutor spells, but still allows people to fetch.
Crim is the only person who knew from the beginning that Opposition Agent is a good thing for the format and there should be MORE Opposition Agent effects
they should print more of those, but i would like to see: "if an opponent searches his/her library for a non basic card, then...." It feels mean to hose people for playing evolving wilds or terramorphic expanse.
Nah, if tutors are such a problem, then a person being the only one being able to tutor (and profiting from other people's tutors) is not a good answer. I think that if it was either you control your opponent or you get the card they tutor for it would still be a good card. As it is, it's too much. I would love more answers against tutors tho
@@nik700 This. There should be more counterplay to tutors, I agree, but Opposition Agent isn’t that. It just changes who the person tutoring is. It doesn’t actually fix any of the problems tutors bring. They don’t make the game any more fair or add any variance. There need to be more Aven Mindcensors and Leonin Arbiters, not more Opposition Agents.
I absolutely loved Phil's reaction to the CAG: "Who is the CAG?" and "Who are these people???" To this day I have no idea what the purpose is of the CAG, even though I really like many members of it. Like, what do they actually DO???
Theyre supposed to know the community better than the rc since they are a lot of content creators with their own communities and as such can supposedly advise the rc how the wider community feels
@@donb7519 that just seems so odd to me. Again, I like those people a lot, but I still have a bit of a sour taste in my mouth with the notion that content creators have sway over how Commander looks solely because they have a high following. Also, doesnt the RC have the same access to Twitter and Reddit? I'm probably just hyperfocusing on this, but the CAG just seems so unnecessary and redundant
@@lukevorwald7727 i mean one they have way less power than you seem to think they basically just say what they see in their communities over time and how they feel rather than looking at knee jerk first responses on twitter they dont even get votes
I personally don’t think any specific cards need to be banned, but I don’t like how in recent times the cards are being printed that they simultaneously give you an advantage and do some the negatively effect your opponents at an efficient mana rate. I think the underlying issue is that cards are being printed where they are taking 3 cards and stapling them into one. I just stay away from playing cards like that, like the praetors
It's exactly what Yugioh did to make every deck into the aggro-control-combo nightmares they are. Every card does everything. MtG is starting along that same path.
I'm so glad there are people like crim that do push back against not interacting in commander. I see people complain that someone's deck is too powerful, but then also refuse to play a single board wipe in their deck
@@VivBrodock nope, but spikes want to fill their decks with removal and cEDH cards, and casuals don't want to have to put in all the expensive zero mana counters and removal
@@VivBrodock it's not everyone else's fault when no one wants to play with you cause your decks aren't fun to play against. People who demand the format change to be "more balanced" ignore that this is the fun social format. Sure, cry about how no one likes removal... But only people who think like you will play with you, in which case everyone gets what they want. You get to play in a miserable game where no one sticks or does anything, everyone else gets to have fun without you.
The problem with hoser cards is that in command it's seen as a bad practice to scoop. It's something you guys never ever mention. Ok, sure, elesh norn screws me over. I scoop. Except now I am the bad guy, the salty pretzel, for scooping. Like yeah, of course! I can't do anything. I've been working the entire week 9 to 5 waiting for this evening, if no one else can do anything Imma just grab another beer and you guys figure it out.
I don't mind opponents doing that as long as they don't act too salty when they do it. If there's nobody else to play then it at least shortens the time till the next game starts. I can imagine if you have something in play which is protecting another player besides the one who hosed you , then that player might prefer you stayed in to see if a board wipe removes the hoser and gets you back in the game. The reduction in the number of wipes in decks in the last several years makes games shorter, but makes that less likely to happen though.
@@shayneweyker I usually don't act too salty when I scoop, I do however get and act salty when people start teasing me about scooping. Like for god's sake dude! yeah my HP is not zero but I am effectively out. And it makes commander into this odd dance of "I don't enjoy this, but when I'm opting out of experience I don't want I am the bad guy".
Not to mention just cause you scoop means i do cause im running a ramos deck with no etb effects so now you either dont scoop doing nothing or may wait an hour as we finish
Tomer please upload a solo video of you reviewing James Bond intro songs at some point during this year. Best case, wait for 5 or 6 months so people have absolutely no context for when you upload it
I also agree with Crim on the fact that Magic needs "No Cards". I am a proponent for mass land destruction in commander, because I think it is important to have the tools to fight your opponents' strategies. Stax can be unfun, but a game with no board wipes, land destruction, and counterspells wouldn't be fun either. Magic isn't fun because you get to play fantasy solitaire. Magic is fun because of the back and forth between you and your opponents; the strategy, tactics, and problem solving. You don't have that if you don't have "No Cards".
i love a good back and forth especially a counter war but for the majority of players no they want fantasy solitaire until one person does something big and dumb that wins that game after a while but not too long then shuffle up to play again in the maybe 1-2 nights a month they may be free to get to the lgs or playgroup
@@donb7519 In all fairness to those people, and acknowledging the fact that people are different and that's completely acceptable, I would claim that if you want fantasy solitaire, multiplayer card games are not a good way to fulfill your desire. Multiplayer games are designed to be interactive, single player games are not. Fantasy solitaire is best found in places like fantasy rpg video games, or maybe variants of Dungeons and Dragons. If Magic was not interactive, nobody would enjoy it, even the solitaire players.
Elesh Norn both improves oppsoing bouncelands and makes yours awful - unplayable trash card. There's a reason random games on MTGO say "No Tergrid" so often. It's weird that they took an effect that had only been at 12 as a creature, and 7 as an enchantment, and decided to print it at 5, make it a possible commander, _and_ make it a strictly better version of the effect. Oh and there's also a back side that can kill the table with any infinite mana combo.
Imo the problem isn't ONE Elesh Norn. It's Sheoldred last set, Elesh Norn this set and over time building up an arsenal of generically good insane value must remove cards that fits in every deck. Over time, decks will be more homogeneic if players don't intentionally steer away from them. Atleast that's my fear and I would argue Elesh Norn probably would go in basically all white decks. There is definitely enough ETBs in commander to warrant it. Even if you're not an ETB-deck, you probably have quite a few and there is a relevant chance your opponents do as well. Soon everyone is legendary tribal and then no one is.
I feel like a lot of people will say Elesh Norn is fine when all their taplands come in untapped, 3 players at the table can't go off with Dockside, and a lot of other etbs that typically are negative. Elesh Norn isn't actually being thought in the context of being an opponent I think, because it just makes you change your playstyle and you can possible gain some incremental value.
I'm still fresh into this one, but banning the new Elesh Norn on the reasoning of "its too generically good" is absolutely ridiculous. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Dockside, Mana Vault, Cyc Rift, Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, and SO MANY MORE cards are "auto includes" in this format.... it's a ridiculous reason, it would continue to propagate this notion that the RC/whoever bans cards willy nilly with no consistency (which is true) and we continue to go round in circles...
I suppose the primary difference between those and Elesh Norn is that those staples promote gameplay while Elesh Norn stifles it. "You play the game better" vs "Your opponents don't play the game at all". To be honest, the idea of a staple COMMANDER card sounds like something a playgroup probably just agrees not to use because it creates less interesting games, yeah? Why bother with a singleton format if you want your deck to play the same way every time?
Instead of free interaction i think that a design where they cost less if you have your commander would be better. Example. 3+blue mama counterspell that costs x less where x is the highest cmc of a commander on your field.
This is a huge issue me and my friends have. We play decks with interaction and when we go to lgs or play on Spell table people whine and complain when we interact with thier deck
Removal is not interaction, it's the opposite. It's you preventing interaction. If the spells being cast don't matter, that's non-interactive. And that's exactly what removal does, makes the spells being cast not matter.
i was agnostic on elesh, but after the game knights episode, I understood the level of obnoxious suffering this could turn out to be. Each other preator that restricts opponents gives a bit of an out at least, elesh norn though just says nope. even a "once on their turn your opponents may ignor this effect." would've put it in a much better space imo
Phill, when you were talking about how your removal is also themed alongside the deck, remember: Most people do not build decks on a theme, bc most people are not content creators. That's literally a "you problem".
Nah plenty of people do themed decks tribal decks are themed decks or themed around certain mechanics yea a normal person isnt building chair tribal but if you made a card that says you cant cast dragons then dragon decks are gonna be mad
@@donb7519 Yeah - people don't actually love playing pure value & staples, conceptually: Tribal being a very direct/intuitive theme is why it's so popular. IMO, if anything, focusing on staples that go in every deck is way more of a content creator thing - most people have just a few themes they've built decks for & want new cards to cater to.
Elesh is far from an auto-include. I wouldn't even think about including her unless there are at least a dozen etb effects in the deck. There is so much "generic good stuff" in white to include which does way more for you. Grand Abolisher for example. If you insist on staxing etb decks there are also cheaper options mana-wise.
I agree with Crim that Jeweled Lotus is actually terrible in casual. In my group whoever plays this always ends up behind because their commander just gets immediately killed which puts them so far behind they never recast it.
I don't understand comparing a feel bad stacks piece with a panharm effect that can be your commander and be recast many times to a sol ring...Its the feel bad part that matters, no one's deck gets trumped by a sol ring
I’m so sick of the feels bad argument. If a piece of cardboard ruins your night and you can’t shake off a loss and play another game, sorry but that’s on you. I’m trying to win a game. (Obligatory statement: I would never play a deck that totally outclasses the table. But if we all agree to play at whatever power level, as long as I’ve kept to that, I don’t want to hear it.)
@@starmanda88 Would you be mad if one of the players in your 4 player game scooped the moment they saw the card hit the table? If so, aren't you being a bit unreasonable here? You can't exactly say "just shake off the loss and play another game" if you then expect them to play through a game that they do not get to participate in. It's not "feels bad". It's "I decided you were not allowed to play with us". It's one thing to play and lose. It's entirely another to not get to play despite wanting to.
The problem with printing "scary" cards, because scary is exciting, is that when you keep seeing those scary cards over and over again, they become frustrating. And when you expect there to be those frustrating cards, you become frustrated instead of being excited whenever you see one of those overpowered cards.
There are different types of scary cards. Some scary is fine. Worldspine Wurm is scary in a totally fair way. It's not a problem, it's just a good spell when it comes up, which probably isn't often. Other cards are scary in the "I wanted to play a card game and now I don't get to" way. That's a problem.
I've got so much respect for Phil. I'm also a person who is like "I'm not gonna cut all the cards I like just to run the unfun but efficient removal." We might get locked out every game, but we get locked out with honor 🤜🤛
That's a really bad take for him and I lost respect for him when he said that. I started taking his opinions less seriously. It screams "you can't play things that stop me from having fun and I'm not gonna change anything about"
@@steven3814 But... He doesn't say "you can't play things that stop me from having fun." He specifically LET'S people play things that stop him, and he still plays and has fun with his friends. He never throws games on purpose and doesn't really complain outside of maybe one or two "Aw geeze, come on man" comments in a game. So you're just wrong about that 🤷♂️
A big weakness for Elesh Norn and the Praetors in general is that they don’t have any built in self-defense (except Progress Tyrant). They all die to removal so easily, despite typically having enormous mana costs
The thing with elesh norn is that most of the time people slap their removal on etb effects, making it more difficult to remove. And if it isnt removed, norn will go nuts.
@@sympathism exactly, just like Phil said, if you make your deck synergistically (running removal on creatures) then you just lose. You're punished for building your deck in the fun, some would say best, way.
I mean yeah it a kill that player and commander on sight card that not really a good thing tho if someone has a Tergrid deck at the table I probally just kill them first no question asked
I’ve recently been increasing my removal in all my decks, up from like 10 to 15 spells (including 2-3 wipes). Norn is just the newest must remove threat, there are so many of them now she’s just a drop in the bucket
We need more instant speed removal and stack interaction from permanents so permanent tribal muldrotha can upgrade from lilting refrain and daring apprentice and lunar opposition and seal of doom to some cards that are worth playing in your deck.
Out of curiosity, how often do you have games where you're stuck drawing more removal than gas? Do the decks just wind up feeling like control at a certain threshold?
that is actually just ridiculous, all your decks are nearly just removal tribal then, a tribal deck is generally 20+ cards of a tribe. some people only put 12 and call it a tribal deck.(CGB)
@@TheSpunYarn it’s rare that I end up with a removal spell that I don’t want in my hand. The trick is to play synergistic removal like removal on an ETB creature, one sided board wipes, 2-for-1 removal, removal that replaces itself or is repeatable, etc. But I will also play generous gift, beast within, chaos warp, and the other affordable staples to make sure I can answer the big threat at instant speed towards the end of the game. Honestly none of my decks feel like control and are mostly creature decks.
@mfitkin Interesting. I have a creature deck in Esper that packs a lot of interaction - most of which is on theme - but even then sometimes I feel stuck with just removal and too few critters. You've probably just got a better ratio than me!
I think new Elesh Norn is GOOD for commander. Just like how we are asking for anti-treasure tech, this is anti-ETB tech. As someone who HATES playing against blink decks that take 30 minute turns, this boogeyman is just what the format needs.
yea but it also shuts off cards that come in precons and beginner budget decks like solemn and the elf that fetches on etb it should of at least had a once per turn on the second clause
I wouldn't say GOOD. I would say STRONG. There are other design decisions that could have been made to make this more for what you are worried about. Strict Proctor allows for those "one time" ETRB's to be feasible, but not something close to infinite.
I’d like to suggest you are misrepresenting Sheldon on this card. He is not against removal, hate pieces or interaction. Has he come out opposed to hushbringer, Stoney silence, Rest in peace, etc… No. When I read his article I got the impression that it was the amount of power in one card (in what it offers and takes away). How many people thought let’s make a better panharmonicon for one more mana. Then we will give it a good stats. But that’s not enough let’s also make it shut down multiple strategies. I like the card but I can see its concern. People will play it for the panharmonicon effect. There is better torpor orb effects if that’s what you want that effect. Where I see the concern is that it gives a strong penalty to your opponents whether you (as the one playing the card) are wanting that effect or not. Not everyone is going to want to play that impactful of a hate piece.
So, I think Sheldon's big problem with Elesh Norn is if you bring Elesh Norn torpor orb tribal (and just ignore the first line of text). Sheldon would more than likely not have a deck that could interact with you meaningfully. Sheldon's decks and play styles are very dated, which is why it sounds like the sky is falling every time a new powerful card comes out. A similar article came out when Tergrid was first released, and the RC stated they had her on the short watch list.
I don't think it's unfair to say a 1 card combo that shuts off entire deck strategies is OP. Especially when the best way to counter the card is with ITSELF. If the most effective counterplay is a mirror match, you've made a mistake in game design.
I don't think that the new Elesh Norn is a problem purely because of how powerful it is, but rather because it has powerful effect that is fun to play stapled onto a powerful effect that isn't fun to play against. Individually, both halves of the card are fine, but when you put them together, you get an extremely powerful card that I expect people to play purely for the Panharmonicon effect without considering the negative effect that the Torpor Orb ability has on the experience of the rest of the table
Most of the old praetors have the exact same problem. They have pretty cool abilities for you that are also attached to unbearably oppressive effects for your opponents. Except Urabrask, it seems that WotC just hates Urabrask. Or wants us to like Urabrask I guess. He never did nothin to nobody. He's a good noodle. At least the new Sheoldred is fair. You can break him, but at that point he's not the problem, you are. I still don't really understand how the old praetors made it past playtesting. The new batch is toned down at least... except for Elesh Norn who is somehow even more oppressive than her original form.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 The old Praetors were made before Commander was widely played, so them making it past playtesting makes a lot more sense. Most of them just existed to serve as expensive game enders for 1v1 formats. I'm really not sure who decided that much cheaper versions of that same formula were a good idea in a world dominated by a casual multiplayer format
@@ianlide1507 I started playing in 2011 and took a in the middle of the khans block, and I think I'd played something like 5 total 1v1 games? None of them in an official format, just casual kitchen table magic using any cards we had that the playgroup hadn't quietly agreed not to use because they aren't fun. One of our players ran a reanimator deck that would semi-regularly bust out a turn 1 sheoldred, until they stopped playing the deck at all because it was no fun for anybody at the table, including them. It's just not fun to win a 4 player game on turn 5 solely because you were the only player allowed to do anything. And it's certainly not fun to be the players not allowed to do anything. I guess my point is, the old praetors were unbelievable BS even on release, outside of commander. Definitely agree that it's very silly to try and push "don't play the game" attached to cards as if it's a thing we should want to be putting in our decks.
I also think it's funny that Commander players will complain about needing removal in their deck for cards like Elesh Norn, when half of your decklist in formats like Modern are the same handful of answers to your opponent's threats. Commander is casual, but you shouldn't be an idiot, or you'll lose games. If you want to play a deck with all fun and no answers, you can. Just don't complain when you lose to the first thing your opponent plays.
Probably, but I will say Sheldon is more in touch with the casual side of the fanbase if people think we should push generically good stax cards for the format. I don't even care if people go all land destruction on me, but it's not pleasant when I see other people flip out about stax pieces.
Soon the new Elesh came out I was a bit disappointed in what it did but everyone around me seem to think that it was broken. So for a whole week whenever I played Commander I did an experiment where I counted how many ETB triggers even happened during a game. Outside of a dedicated ETB deck it happened maybe four or five times a game. So when Sheldon and the rest of the community complain about how negatively this will affect the format, considered how many ETB triggers even happened in your average game. If anything it shut off more threats like dockside then shutdown a player's ability to play
Even if you don't have too many etb triggers, Elesh Norn works like a stax piece keeping others from having their triggers. I think it's more powerful than it looks.
Bootlegger's Stash was priced way higher than reason on release. I thought it would be pretty sweet but it has underperformed in anything not focused around artifacts/treasures/tokens that I've tried.
I can see Norn as a bit of a feel bad considering it's etb stax, but why are we not just banning all stacks, all counters, all discard, all removal, all combo... we should ban ramp for Crim. Just play the damn game and enjoy the company, sometimes you get hosed. P.S. I do also love interaction, even my lower power no combo no tutor decks run 15-20+ interaction and loads of draw/selection. I also see stax as a fun puzzle to solve, i'm probably a spike though.
My playgroup did ban poison counters, discard, and combos that the group felt made the game un-fun. Not because the losers wanted to, but because the winners could see that the game wasn't fun for everyone else, and adjusted on their own. To be honest I find it weird that any playgroup wouldn't be doing the same naturally. As a result, I'm constantly baffled by the MtG community's views on things. Out of curiosity, do you consider removal to be interaction? Because logically, it should be inherently non-interactive, right? You are looking at the game state and saying "no I'd rather not", whereas interaction would be looking at the game state and adjusting your plan accordingly. Like, inherently the goal of control is to be the only one playing the game, that's how you win, and removal is the way they achieve that goal. It should be obvious that one player playing solitaire while everyone else does nothing is not interactive, so surely the method that achieves that goal is inherently not interactive? Sorry if this comes across the wrong way, I am genuinely curious about your answer to these questions, and whether you've considered these ideas.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 it's a lot to unpack, but interaction in the mtg language is anything that can reach out and interact with your opponent outside of turning sideways and hitting them in the face. So yes removal is "interaction" as you are interacting with your opponent, presumably with the intention of not losing, which is probably one of the most interesting bits of magic for people who like decisions. Now in a 1v1 format control is trying to take over the board and win through advantage and can do this with a mix of interaction, card draw and finishers. In edh this doesn't tend to work as you can't 1 for 1 against 3 people and keep up on cards, so control decks rely on breaking pairity on stax pieces, wrath effects or pinpoint removal to keep themselves alive, normally before a combo win. This can be really frustrating for combat/ramp oriented groups as people tend to just want to cast their cool things and turn stuff sideways, if that's what a playgroup wants to do and it suits them fair enough however i personally prefer a game with setbacks and unexpected challenges as i find it makes the victories sweeter and the near defeats more memorable. Part of the interaction here as an opponent of "control" is knowing how to play the game against them and acting acordingly, if there is a heavy counterspell deck at the table everytime a big threat comes down i'm looking at them first to try and get some of that resource out of their hand, if i'm against wrath tribal i'm sandbagging some stuff to rebuild, if i'm playing against stax it's a puzzle to solve rather than a reason to be upset (as long as it's not a surprise "whoops all stax" deck). This means that when i sit down at a table of my peers i'm expecting my things to get countered so i'm baiting or waiting for them to be tapped down, i'm holding my own pieces of interaction for something important or game ending for me, i'm sandbagging some threats because a wrath feels imminent as someone has a lot of creatures, etc. When i play at a pod with a playgroup similar to yours i sometimes apologise and walk away, sometimes i offer to be archenemy, sometimes i play my weakest deck and occasionally i'll meet some people who want to try something new. I always point out my combo pieces as they hit the stack, i always point out my own large threats, i'll make people aware of my open mana when they are playing into it and i warn people over extending of impending wraths, i find that with more understanding of the reasons and thought process of this style of play people tend to adopt to it as it adds more options and depth the a game. A playground of tournament players or cedh players can have the same outcome from a game where only 6 spells resolved and the game ended with an infinite combo on turn 3 as a combat group can have after a turn 12 turning things sideways slugfest. "Man that force on my naus was perfect timing, i thought i could sneak it through on endstep after that fight over the rule of law, who knew he had the instant speed win over the top of the silence effect without tutoring, next time i'll try and time it better!" Is basically the same as "Oh wow, that last turn was crazy. I didn't expect you to be able to block all that damage and stay alive, then he did all that extra damage to him and you had enough to get us all down and hold up a couple of blockers, crazy turn mate lets go again!"
@@egoish6762 I see. That all makes sense and seems perfectly reasonable. Though, I would consider combat to be the primary form of interaction in the game. If I set up a threat like quietus spike+warlock class they block or lose the game on the spot. I tend to prefer more midrange synergy that ends on a splashy non-infinite combo setup with a lot of pieces, and I've found it's really easy to make combat an series of meaningful interactions rather than just being damage. I rarely find the damage of combat to be the point, usually combat for me is a form of removal or a value engine.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 combat can definately be interaction, lowering life totals is the core of the game and forcing blocks or utilising death touchers, etc. is certainly valuable. However when MTG players talk about interaction they aren't necessarily talking about interacting with the opponents directly, more about having answers to problems. Drawing cards on damage, etc. is a great form of value but the trouble with combat as "interaction" is often it is the opponents decision whether that interaction succeeds or not rather than being a true answer to an issue like a removal, counter or boardwipe. Edit: quietus spike + warlock class is basically a 3 card combo with the attacking creature as well. Combo's don't have to be infinite or thorracle based to still be playable. I think thats a pretty good mid tier combo for a decent deck, especially if you have unblockable or equipment synergies.
@@egoish6762 Isn't the fact that both players decide the outcome together what makes it interaction? Inter- being a prefix meaning among or between, and action being the root word. It seems odd, then, for MtG players to define interaction in a way that makes both players' involvement not count as interaction yet suggests one player making unilateral decisions is interaction.
I had a similar thing with the universes beyond cards. I think some have cool design, but aesthetically I typically prefer their magic version. I wasn't a huge fan of the street fighter cards even though the card effect design was interesting, but as soon as I saw their mtg version I fell in love with the Zethi.
Universes Beyond is part of a larger problem in media right now. Right now there is a big emphasis on "oh remember that other thing you like" and there is no substance behind that. We see this in other IP's as well where there are a lot of crossovers. I really hate it and wish Wizards just focused on their own IP
Phil has good takes. All he's really saying is "I play Commander as if it's a format", and phrasing it within the context of the specific topic over and over again.
Tergrid is kill on sight in my opinion. The deck is only mildly annoying without Tergrid since discarding cards isn’t fun, but keeping Tergrid off the battlefield is always my top priority.
I think the land destroying sentiment is wildly misrepresented and done so often by content creators. Mass land destruction is frowned upon. Yes. I believe many people share the view of it being a tactic that is viable and even accepted in a one vs one format, but less so in a multi person format where it often leads to games drawn out unnecessarily. Single target removal on lands is something I have yet to run across anyone who has a problem with. If you play a Gaea's Cradle/Nykthos/Cabal coffers etc. then you pretty much play that epecting some opponent to deal with it at some point...and if no one does, then that's a battle they'll have to fight on a different axis in dealing with the spells you're able to launch into. I'm looking forward to the podcast where you all discuss land destruction and the seeing the multitude of comments stating their viewpoints on single vs mass.
I have to say that people hate when I play humility and make my friends creatures worthless. Elesh does something similar to iona where it could completely remove another player from the game until it leaves the battlefield. On a side note, bounce lands are amazing against this thing 👍
But those lands are now rarely used. I thought about that. Could I benefit more than not from the opponents having this? It turns out, no. It is still pretty back breaking to basic strategies built into the format.
Bootlegger's Stash is still strong as hell. Marionette Master immediately kills the table and fireweaver is close to it. In the golgari squirrel commander they can perma-kill all creatures.
Can't wait for folks to realize the best way to beat an Elesh Norn is to copy an Elesh Norn. Their removal is probably going to be 90% O rings and such that won't work against my Mirror Image or whatever.
The key difference between Oppo Agent and Hullbreacher/Norn is that it does its thing and then that's mostly it. It continues to block your opponents, but won't advance your own game plan. You can avoid casting tutors to play around it. You can't play around your opponent turning Windfall into Double Recall + Mindslicer + Dockside. You can't play around your opponent casting their own Portal to Phyrexia.
Sol ring is one card that comes in every deck so everyone has them also they printed it 30 years ago so it’s not like they just made it for the format like elesh norn
No one complains about fairwell???? Well you haven't met me then!!! If it were choose two I'd think it were fine. Since it's mix and match pick 4, it's undercosted for what it does.
Elesh Norn is fine. One thing to point out is Torpor Orb only hits creatures, Elesh Norn hits everything. Also, you can't complain if you don't run removal. If you don't run interaction then complain when others do, you're just crying that someone isn't letting you win.
Removal is not interaction. Removal is the prevention of interaction. If you want interaction, play combat tricks. Play creatures that have meaningful combat abilities. Play enchantments that interact with other pieces on the board in more meaningful ways than "hurr durr you dun have ting no more". Removal is NOT interaction. Howling Moon is infinitely more interactive than Counterspell or Doom Blade. I say that, but you won't. Because those things are weaker than the non-interactive easy wins that removal represent. Playing interactive magic requires NOT playing heavy swiss army knife removal suites. But you win more by creating those non-interactive board states. So why would you stop? Obviously they're the problem if I've got these useless removal spells stuck in my hand, right? It's them *not having anything* that's the problem, yeah... it can't be that I've cast a 1 for 1 removal spell on every single spell that's been cast this game, plus thrown in a bunch of card draw on top of it... right? It's not MY fault their card draw doesn't say "can't be countered". it's not MY fault that their creatures don't have hexproof. And of course the flood of tokens weren't indestructible, that was a mistake on their part. Surely I'm not the problem. I'm not the one who created this empty non-interactive board of theirs. No, it's a personal failing because I'm actually smart and handsome and definitely have an adequate or above penis. Totally not me that's the issue. I apologize if I went too far there. Not really sorry about anything I said though, it's all just how it is. That's the mindset of any idiot saying removal is interaction despite it inherently creating non-interactive gamestates.
Commander players: You should have answers for silver bullet cards your opponents play Also commander players: Tutors bad for format A: you pack every deck with a critical mass of generic good removal spells cutting customization B: you run tutors cutting randomness. If you have to expect silver bullets every game how do you build your funky decks? The problem is torpor orb, RIP and other stax pices are only stopping your opponents so many aren't intrested in doing that. Elesh norn is so pushed in every direction that objectively it is correct to run in most white decks. Stacks pices aren't supposed to be THIS good for you. Traditional stacks requires you to build around it, elesh requires you to have 50 bucks to throw at wizards
Yeah, I do agree that there's weirdness when it comes to the culture around removal. In a lot of cases, the way you round that corner is playing removal that ties into the rest of the deck, but that's liable to run into Phil's Norn problem where the removal gets shut down alongside the deck. I've also been seeking out different kinds of cards just for the fun of it - I've had decks that focus on two-for-one removal like Ashes to Ashes, or a Liesa angel tribal that runs mutually-beneficial white card draw purely for the flavour, but I care about that kind of subtheming more than other players seem to.
Question about the consistency of salt between Elesh and Tergrid. 27:02 Phil: "opponents won't have fun with Elesh Norn" Tomer and everyone: "run more removal" 50:16 Crim calls for Tergrid ban, the salt is justified. I just have to ask why removal wasn't mentioned here, to deal with the card. Could I just say run more removal on tergrid before they cast another spell? Similar to Elesh being chalked up as everyone should just run more removal before the elesh player casts another ETB card/you deal with another turn of tapped permanents? Genuinely curious!! I don't own an elesh deck or a tergrid deck. Stax and discard/sac are archetypes with or without the commanders mentioned here, so a deck without tergrid and/or elesh can still do the thing in other ways. If that's not enjoyable is that more so a knock on the archetypes and maybe a bit of a highlighted inflation of salt on these commanders?
Elesh Norn isn't going to be too ubiquitous because it's going to cost at least $30 to get one. I know I won't be picking one up, so it doesn't really have a chance to haunt my playgroup.
Universes Beyond is great, although I do prefer the IPs be... fantastic enough to compete with "canon" Magic planes. The Walking Dead seems a little strange as a choice, since it's so gritty and grounded, but 40k is the perfect addition to Magic, Star Wars sounds great too. Like was mentioned it's already a multiverse setting, it doesn't break anyone's immersion to have a vampire from Innistrad fighting kaiju from Ikoria and ninjas from Kamigawa and Lovecraftian Eldrazi. If you can handle all that it seems a little weird to say "sorry my immersion drops at space ships."
Elesh norn is scary. More scary than a hullbreaker horror or possibly even toxril. And I possibly am only playing against this ones and than only when I have my oko in hand.
But on the other side people possibly start playing different cards that are not only etb and I hope see this against a blink deck. Only problem : this norn is most likely a blink aswell 🙄
Bootleggers stash for me, is an all-star in my Korvold deck. Especially in combination with academy manufactor and seedborn muse out…. Kuldotha forgemaster is a great way to tutor and get it out cheap
I think the big thing about Tergrid (and apologies if I missed this getting mentioned), is that even if Tergrid gets killed so often she can no longer be cast, the Tergrid deck is still a pile of discard and sac effects, and the Tergrid player isn't just going to sit there not casting those spells.
Yeah, this makes sense. Even without Tergrid on the battlefield a Tergrid deck has a lot of cards that some players won't enjoy playing against.
Yeah I have a tergrid deck that is almost cedh level and basically turns 1 or 2 is u prevent your opponents from playing the game with sac and discard and then 3 or 4 is tergrid plus a big swing like memory jar or fart cloud. It is definitely a commander not meant for low level games but if u have the rule zero talk about power level it has never felt op compared to my other friends decks at that level.
Also tergrid isn't just oh I stole everything I win. You have a bunch of random pieces that you need to combo together to figure out the win. It is a completely different experience everytime I play the deck which I really enjoy. Honestly I have never have had an easy win bc sometimes I had to fight tooth and nail bc if I have her on the board it is a 3 v 1 everytime which is always hard.
Absolutely, like yes she auto-steals your opponents creatures with grave pact. Worst case you can still control the board
25:09 Hear hear!! Interaction and back-and-forth is the heart of the game. Even if it’s not *great* interaction, if it’s *interesting* interaction, the game wins. The trick is to keep it interesting. A good (non-c)EDH game should be like a dance or like an exciting, or at least funny, story.
And cEDH ones are often like anime slugfests.
Back and forth cardboard slinging is the best part of the game.
Exactly. People play Shooter video games for the action, the combat, and the ability to feel that your actions and your decision making gave you a distinct advantage. Magic is the same thing to tabletop gamers, it just doesn't require you to aim with a stupid joystick. Nothing beats the rush of quietly letting your opponent pop off and then countering their game-winning spell at the last minute.
@@ethanglaeser9239 Eh. I think Magic is MORE than just interaction.
It can still be interesting, without shutting down many ways of playing the game. The same can be said for players that feel they need to use Norn to stop other players. Couldn't they have simply used from-hand interaction to stop the greedy player, without stopping an essential aspect (ETB for permanents) for all players? This is why I do not like Praetors for the balance of EDH. I know it is a vast format existing in a chaotic pool of possibility. But there are ways to make sure everyone can play many things, answer some things, and not feel locked out at the same time.
Its the same for cedh. You dont play cedh for the turn 2 wins even tho they are insanely satisfying to pull of. You play it for the slugfests and back and forth interaction...
Seth and Phil’s eyes when Tomar’s talking about the guy who pushed Dockside, made me have to watch that reaction again lmao
Yes. 1:25:13 for all who missed it.
& Seth's "did he get fired.. for printing Dockside?"
I like the new webcam frames. It's a lot sleeker than what was being used before.
LRR already cornered the "magic creators rating Bond Intro Songs" market 😉
And then "Kill James Bond" came out. High key recommend that one too
I like how after all this Elesh Norn hasn't ruined the format and still isn't banned. So much for the rules committee knowing what's best for the format
The spells like Fierce Guardianship shouldn't have been free if your commander is out, they should be discounted for the highest mana value commander you have out. So like a 6 mana counter spell that is discounted down, which would encourage higher mana value commanders.
seems like a good idea.
So basically unplayable for any Commander that costs 4 mana or less (bad Negate)?
Good idea on papaer but this idea makes free spell useless. You will always use them in low cmc decks. Free spell shuldn t exist imo
Agreed, it should of had a very high base mana cost encouraging higher cmc to gain the benefit from or at least make casting the card painful without the discount.
So you don’t like Memnite, Ornithopter, or the multitude of other zero mana artifacts?
Elish Norn can definitely die to removal... But all my removal in my ETB thened decks are themselves ETBs.
Even if you add 2/3 removal spells for Norn, you still have to draw them. I'm guessing most of your draws are etb based as well.
Maybe it's just me, but this is exactly why I try to diversify my "answers" in decks. Synergie is fun and important, but you need some variance in your interaction, so your deck can run smooth.
@@kingofrunes5291 yea but with all the pieces being printed who need generic answers that i need to shove in when am i just giving up on my theme
That sounds like a deck building error.
The only issue I have with Elesh Norn is the cost being too easy to splash. Make it 2WWW and force people to really mean it if they want to play her.
Yea i think when people say "X color really needs Y" those cards should be heavily invested in the color, not easily splash able in any X white/red whatever decks.
So the good white card draw effects should be ATLEAST double white if not triple. Smothering tithe: 3 white 1 colorless.
Because what people really want IS dumb OP staples that in mulitcolor decks.
Honestly I think she's only 4W because they needed the room for her name.
Sheldon complaining about Elesh Norn:
Old man yells at mom.
Crim struggling to read a green card is so accurate of him
One that I'm surprised didn't come up was Void Mirror. Everyone was so sure that card would destroy everything and at this point I don't think I've seen anyone ever play it.
There was complaining, but it was mostly Modern Tron & Cascade players with a few Legacy players thrown in. I didn't hear a peep from Commander players.
I feel like most hate pieces that are good get a huge hoopla when they come out but from what I've noticed is most players don't like playing hate pieces. The ones who do like to tend to play them all.
Low key, you should try it against an eldrazi player and watch them cry.
@@bladetb3934 I run it in my monowhite deck to stop free spells; I can confirm the one time I went up against eldrazi it absolutely wrecked them
Something funny about the mind goblin, the sticker sheet with mine has the power toughnesses 4/2 and 6/9
I think its funny because its been seeing some play in eternal formats bc there's enough sticker sheets to where it's always mana positive, and sometimes better than seething song
I feel like Opposition Agent is so easy to remove that it's not that problematic. It's also punishing the thing that people seem to hate about commander, which is running too many tutors.
People aren't against tutors, they are against other people tutoring... 🤣
I like playing "fair" stax. Confounding Conundrum; Aven Mindcensor; Lavinia, Azorius Renegade etc.
And all the people who usually complain about other people ramping and tutoringing all of the sudden pick me as archenemy just because they can't jam their big 8 mana Timmy threat on turn 5.
It should've been white and had more than one colored pip but otherwise it's fine
@oelboy I hate tutors in commander, don't run any in my decks unless they are thematically relevant. Like, for my Garth the Zookeeper deck if there were tutors that reference zoos I'd run them, but there aren't so I don't. Or for my Spirit of the Night 1 creature deck, if there was a tutor that said, "as long as you control only 1 creature) I'd run it but it doesn't exist so I don't.
Hell, even in my almost-cEDH Hinata deck I don't run tutors. If someone complains about tutors and then gets mad when their's is shut down, they're just assholes you shouldn't play with cause fuck hypocrites.
@@EdBurke37 Eh it being in black is fine to me, black also hates out library searching and the effect is similar to Praetor's Grasp.
@@EdBurke37 Yes, the *DIMIR SPY* should be white. Not blue/black.
I think the biggest problem with Elesh Norn is the cost. Not that it's 5 mana, but that it's only a single coloured mana. Every single one of them costs double coloured mana:
Ebon Praetor: 4BB (from Fallen Empires, not a Phyrexian Praetor)
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: 5WW
Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor: 1BB
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur: 8UU
Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant: 5UU
Sanguine Praetor: 6BB (from Guildpact, not a Phyrexian Praetor)
Sheoldred, the Apocalypse: 2BB
Sheoldred, Whispering One: 5BB
Urabrask the Hidden: 3RR
Urabrask, Heretic Praetor: 3RR
Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider: 4GG
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger: 6GG
This makes Elesh Norn far easier to cast in multicoloured decks in all formats than any other roughly similar CMC praetor, which to my mind is the biggest problem. You can splash to get Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines.
A second white pip wouldn't stop anyone from including it, imo.
@@enmanuelrondon9700 True, but you can cast her far more reliably. Double coloured mana cards are more difficult to get the mana for, because you only need that ONE land of the correct colour.
If you're playing Simic, splashing that one extra land to get Elesh Norn is easy. Hell, you might not even need it if you're playing mana dorks. Somberwald Sage, Birds of Paradise, Sylvan Caryatid, Noble Hierarch and so on.
Yes, those can be used for any other colour commander, but you need two of them on the table to play Sheoldred or Urubrask in Simic.
That what I mean when I say you can splash Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines.
I think that the uproar against new Norn came from JLK's deck on Game Knights, like people were aware of the power level, but (at least for me) the prision aspect of all the etb exile effects in white was missed, and that deck was nothing but O Rings. I don't think that it should be banned tho.
On Jeweled Lotus, I think that it's bad as a design and mid as a card. The strategies that are made better with it are already so much better than everything else
Yeah that deck was sooo oppressive. Not sure if it's OP cos it's still just a creature. But I certainly didn't expect it to do what it did. I was expecting a value deck, not a control deck
As a phage player, yes please put a torpor orb on your side of the battle field :)
Oh flip ididnt realize torpor would shut her
Tbh I think Phil's takes about not wanting to run ways to deal with Torpor Orb effects is exactly what the others were talking about.
I personally dont have much fun when my opponent pops off with busted mana acceleration and card draw and blink effects turn 4 and draws their whole deck with chulane or whatever.
So I think its fair for me to run some pieces that shut down those effects. They can be removed if you didnt build your deck super greedily.
I guess Phil's take to me sounds like "I dont want to have to consider what other players are doing" and idk, if thats the ideal attitude then why should I care if other people are affected by Elesh Norn?
Everyone should be working together to have a fun experience in commander, and that means realizing that if you build your deck such that when it "does its thing" you auto win, maybe you cant complain when people interact with you on that axis.
Just some thoughts.
Being forced into playing usually more efficient and powerful removal just sounds like it forces more "auto-include" situations. You don't usually run a card like Fiend Hunter in a generic Wx deck, but you can potentially squeeze extra value out of it in a blink deck so you might run it over a generic removal card like Swords to Plowshares. If something like the new Norn is crazy popular then that deck can no longer rely on Fiend Hunter and has to go down the generic creature removal StP/PtE path. I don't think the new Norn is crazy powerful or anything, it is just something to think about.
Oh I do run catch all answers in my deck, I just try to make them fit the theme. If my Lonis deck can’t counter the Norn, I can Commit // Memory it, but it also synergizes with Lonis’s ability (in this case I could steal the Norn for myself if I sacrifice 7 clues).
In some decks I run generic removal like Beast Within, but it always feels better/is more fun if it fits the deck’s gameplan. I wouldn’t want to start every deck with a removal/interaction kit of the same cards. Again, not advocating for banning Elesh Norn, she’s just another must remove threat
@@BrewersKitchen Yeah I get that, I just follow the philosophy that if your deck is super weak to torpor orb maybe you should have ways to remove it that dont also fold to torpor orb 😅. Im not entirely unbiased myself lol as an avowed torpor orb enjoyer. Big fan btw, no hate.
@@BrewersKitchen Definitely share that feeling - I built a janky Karona vows/curses deck, and getting to play all the niche and bizarre enchantment-based removal was a cornerstone of what made the deckbuilding fun.
Maybe what we really need is a Trinisphere in a super-yolked body, like a 3/4 with flying and lifelink and ward {2}. We need to hate on cheap removal staples!
@@vavakxnonexus 6 mana trinisphere commander would be fine probably? maybe make it 5c pip wise so you have to invest for it too
I think a lot of people have these feelings because they entered magic through commander. If you come from 1v1, interaction is a huge part of the game.
I started in 1v1 back in 97, still hate the new Elesh Norn. It's a strictly better version of Yarok.
@@casteanpreswyn7528 it’s only in one color which I would think wouldn’t make it better than Yarok. I think we’ll see it in the 99 a lot but not as much as a commander once people see how un-fun it is.
@David Armstrong as a commander it's really strong but most pods run enough removal to deal with it so it costs 17. In the 99, it's literally a must run if you have white.
As a commander it's ridiculously strong, in the 99 it's the best card in your deck.
Also, it's the same cmc, better body, better effect, and has fewer color pips compared to Yarok. It's a straight upgrade.
I think it's because the amount of time you spend not affecting the game once you've had your main engine or ability to play spells disabled is much longer in 4 player pods vs. 1 on 1 matches.
@@casteanpreswyn7528 deathtouch is pretty good
Elesh norn is definitely not bannable, but it is accidentally pretty oppressive.
People will run it as another copy of panharmonicon, however, it shuts off a lot of cards and even decks. As long as people realize it can be oppressive, interaction and/or pregame convos should manage to keep the play experience fun.
If it gets popular I'm going to run lotus field and bounce lands and laugh
If it gets popular I'm going to run lotus field and bounce lands and laugh
And this is one of the points Sheldon tried to make (whether or not you agree with him) that distinguishes Norn from Opposition Agent.
When you play Opposition Agent, you're trying to play a powerful hate piece.
On the other hand, more casual players will run Norn as a Panharmonicon type effect/commander, and happen to also have a powerful hate piece that may not fit their group's typically expectations.
I can understand his concern, even if I don't agree with him about the level of problem it's likely to create.
@@DarthChocolate15 100% agree
@@DarthChocolate15 I play opposition because I want to "get" people
I really don't see Elesh Norn being a big issue. I agree that it is pushed too far in terms of general efficiency. It's a 5 mana 4/7 creature with vigilance, that is also a stax piece. This is similar to cards like new Shoeldred, which are threats both in their abilities and in their strength as a creature. I don't like cards being designed this way, but I still don't see Elesh Norn breaking anything. It's going to be annoying for sure, but it's no harder to kill than any other annoying card, and having it as a commander limits you to a single color.
While I agree with some of the "generically good" concerns that the article they referenced discussed, I also have to mention that it seems confusing to say that about Elesh Norn, but not other cards. A rules committee member wants to ban Elesh Norn for being a generically good white creature, but we still have Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault in the format? Sol Ring reduces the deck size in every deck, and introduces much more sameness than Elesh Norn would...
i have a few decks that don't run Sol Ring because it's not needed, i have all of 4 decks out of 46 that run Mana Crypt, and 2 of them are cEDH, the others are Chulane and Mono White angles because they need it and the life loss doesn't matter, and Mana Vault is only in my cEDH decks. Those cards aren't must haves, you just decide that you have to play them. And the Sol Ring auto include so reduces the deck size argument is so ridiculous anyway. In a commander deck you run 40-50 lands/ramp/rocks right? do you complain that the battle bond lands are auto includes? how about shock lands? oh and the OG duals are must haves because your deck is strictly worse without them if you're not a mono deck. what about mono black decks Cabal Coffers is an auto include should be banned then.
@@atk9989 I didn't say that format staples are a problem, I only said that that argument applies to cards like Sol Ring much more than they apply to cards like new Elesh Norn. Therefore, if they want to ban Elesh Norn for those reasons, there are a number of other cards that must go as well. For the record, I would be content with either outcome. Ban more, or ban less, don't do nothing.
I just don't like that it is designed to be a commander staple. If you think about the importance of the card in the lore, for the set, so on it's actually quite a boring effect. Those mana rocks are just incidentally too much value for commander, they don't bore me because while they are auto-includes, it's an incidental occurrence and cheap stuff that makes mana SHOULD be boring.
@@Spaced92 I agree on the "designed for Cmmander" issue. Some of the legendary creatures they print are really cool for Commander, but they make too many of them too good in Commander for no reason.
Ofc it wont be a problem its a expensive creature that dies to any removal or boardwipe. If the rc should decide to ban it the whole magic community should stop following them.
While I agree that Commander players need to run more interaction playing "more removal" also leads to playing more staples, more effective and efficient cards which does least to decks looking more similar.
That already happens
@@jamesgratz4771 yeah, I know.
My point is that cards like New Norn, who I think is still fine, push thematic decks even further to running non-thematic removal.
It's not something that should lead to cards being banned but it is something to consider when people talk about a card having a "homogenizing effect".
Does removal count as interaction? Isn't it very specifically a way to AVOID having to interact? To my mind, the spells you cast mattering is interaction, while removal just means that spell doesn't matter. When I think of interaction, I think of sequences of events that play out between players because of what's on the table. I see your board, and instead of making the value play, I play a card that is a better matchup against your board state even if it might not optimally tap out my mana. Drop Bloodthirsty Aerialist because of your 2/2 flyer even though I could have cast a 5 drop instead. That's interaction. My choices are affected by the gamestate. Whereas heavy removal decks tend to avoid changing their gameplan according to the game state. I'll play what I'm going to play because I can just get rid of anything my opponent would do that I don't like anyway. I don't have to worry about how my plays interact with the board, because my removal prevents it from mattering.
I think Sheldon's issue with Elesh Norn is that to him Commander only works if people have empathy and don't play busted or unfun cards and elesh norn is an effect people want stapled to incidental hate that is the exact opposite of what people want.
When you say it like that, it makes it sound like he's objectively correct.
I think the reason Sheldon is worried about elesh norn is people will play it for the panharmonicon ability and won’t be thinking about the Stax effect that stops a lot of cards in decks and people might not want to play against that and normally wouldn’t because people don’t play those Stax pieces
Tergrid is so wild. Still baffles me to this day 😂
Sheldon's take is wrong. Is MoM strong? Yeah. But it definitely is not an auto-include and we can't just ban every white stax card (rip iona).
My two cents on Opposition Agent are that it should say something akin to "If a nonland source would cause an opponent to search." That way, it stops tutor spells, but still allows people to fetch.
"If a spell or ability from m a non-land source would cause an opponent to search their library,..."
Like crim said jeweled lotus dominates in cedh. That alone should tell you how powerful it is.
That was my first listen. Great podcast; thanks a lot!!!
Crim is the only person who knew from the beginning that Opposition Agent is a good thing for the format and there should be MORE Opposition Agent effects
they should print more of those, but i would like to see: "if an opponent searches his/her library for a non basic card, then...."
It feels mean to hose people for playing evolving wilds or terramorphic expanse.
@@HeyHeyHeyJoJoJo that's not a bad design 👍
Nah, if tutors are such a problem, then a person being the only one being able to tutor (and profiting from other people's tutors) is not a good answer. I think that if it was either you control your opponent or you get the card they tutor for it would still be a good card. As it is, it's too much. I would love more answers against tutors tho
Same Crim that thought Hullbreacher was fine...
@@nik700 This. There should be more counterplay to tutors, I agree, but Opposition Agent isn’t that. It just changes who the person tutoring is. It doesn’t actually fix any of the problems tutors bring. They don’t make the game any more fair or add any variance. There need to be more Aven Mindcensors and Leonin Arbiters, not more Opposition Agents.
I absolutely loved Phil's reaction to the CAG: "Who is the CAG?" and "Who are these people???"
To this day I have no idea what the purpose is of the CAG, even though I really like many members of it. Like, what do they actually DO???
Theyre supposed to know the community better than the rc since they are a lot of content creators with their own communities and as such can supposedly advise the rc how the wider community feels
@@donb7519 that just seems so odd to me. Again, I like those people a lot, but I still have a bit of a sour taste in my mouth with the notion that content creators have sway over how Commander looks solely because they have a high following. Also, doesnt the RC have the same access to Twitter and Reddit? I'm probably just hyperfocusing on this, but the CAG just seems so unnecessary and redundant
@@lukevorwald7727 i mean one they have way less power than you seem to think they basically just say what they see in their communities over time and how they feel rather than looking at knee jerk first responses on twitter they dont even get votes
I personally don’t think any specific cards need to be banned, but I don’t like how in recent times the cards are being printed that they simultaneously give you an advantage and do some the negatively effect your opponents at an efficient mana rate.
I think the underlying issue is that cards are being printed where they are taking 3 cards and stapling them into one.
I just stay away from playing cards like that, like the praetors
It's exactly what Yugioh did to make every deck into the aggro-control-combo nightmares they are. Every card does everything. MtG is starting along that same path.
I'm so glad there are people like crim that do push back against not interacting in commander. I see people complain that someone's deck is too powerful, but then also refuse to play a single board wipe in their deck
The dumbest shit to me is content creators who are like "these strategies are to strong" and then hit back with the "wraths are toxic in commander"
Yeah, they're called spikes who want to laugh fun, casual decks off of the table. Crim is the antithesis of fun, casual Commander
@@adamfiliatreault3393 it's really not someone else's fault if you built a deck that can't handle removal.
@@VivBrodock nope, but spikes want to fill their decks with removal and cEDH cards, and casuals don't want to have to put in all the expensive zero mana counters and removal
@@VivBrodock it's not everyone else's fault when no one wants to play with you cause your decks aren't fun to play against. People who demand the format change to be "more balanced" ignore that this is the fun social format. Sure, cry about how no one likes removal... But only people who think like you will play with you, in which case everyone gets what they want. You get to play in a miserable game where no one sticks or does anything, everyone else gets to have fun without you.
The problem with hoser cards is that in command it's seen as a bad practice to scoop. It's something you guys never ever mention. Ok, sure, elesh norn screws me over. I scoop. Except now I am the bad guy, the salty pretzel, for scooping. Like yeah, of course! I can't do anything. I've been working the entire week 9 to 5 waiting for this evening, if no one else can do anything Imma just grab another beer and you guys figure it out.
I don't mind opponents doing that as long as they don't act too salty when they do it. If there's nobody else to play then it at least shortens the time till the next game starts.
I can imagine if you have something in play which is protecting another player besides the one who hosed you , then that player might prefer you stayed in to see if a board wipe removes the hoser and gets you back in the game. The reduction in the number of wipes in decks in the last several years makes games shorter, but makes that less likely to happen though.
@@shayneweyker I usually don't act too salty when I scoop, I do however get and act salty when people start teasing me about scooping. Like for god's sake dude! yeah my HP is not zero but I am effectively out. And it makes commander into this odd dance of "I don't enjoy this, but when I'm opting out of experience I don't want I am the bad guy".
Not to mention just cause you scoop means i do cause im running a ramos deck with no etb effects so now you either dont scoop doing nothing or may wait an hour as we finish
@@donb7519 yeah, pretty much. I still scoop cuz I'd rather wait not bounded to the chair. This way at least insult isn't added to the injury
MoM is not a problem. Stacks are needed point blank period. We need hate pieces.
Tomer please upload a solo video of you reviewing James Bond intro songs at some point during this year. Best case, wait for 5 or 6 months so people have absolutely no context for when you upload it
I also agree with Crim on the fact that Magic needs "No Cards". I am a proponent for mass land destruction in commander, because I think it is important to have the tools to fight your opponents' strategies. Stax can be unfun, but a game with no board wipes, land destruction, and counterspells wouldn't be fun either. Magic isn't fun because you get to play fantasy solitaire. Magic is fun because of the back and forth between you and your opponents; the strategy, tactics, and problem solving. You don't have that if you don't have "No Cards".
i love a good back and forth especially a counter war but for the majority of players no they want fantasy solitaire until one person does something big and dumb that wins that game after a while but not too long then shuffle up to play again in the maybe 1-2 nights a month they may be free to get to the lgs or playgroup
@@donb7519 In all fairness to those people, and acknowledging the fact that people are different and that's completely acceptable, I would claim that if you want fantasy solitaire, multiplayer card games are not a good way to fulfill your desire. Multiplayer games are designed to be interactive, single player games are not. Fantasy solitaire is best found in places like fantasy rpg video games, or maybe variants of Dungeons and Dragons. If Magic was not interactive, nobody would enjoy it, even the solitaire players.
@@ethanglaeser9239 i mean to them being interactive is using beast within or a simic charm not a 3 card deep stack
Elesh Norn both improves oppsoing bouncelands and makes yours awful - unplayable trash card.
There's a reason random games on MTGO say "No Tergrid" so often. It's weird that they took an effect that had only been at 12 as a creature, and 7 as an enchantment, and decided to print it at 5, make it a possible commander, _and_ make it a strictly better version of the effect. Oh and there's also a back side that can kill the table with any infinite mana combo.
wait whats the 12 mana creature???
@@fosterdawson7339 It That Betrays
Imo the problem isn't ONE Elesh Norn. It's Sheoldred last set, Elesh Norn this set and over time building up an arsenal of generically good insane value must remove cards that fits in every deck. Over time, decks will be more homogeneic if players don't intentionally steer away from them.
Atleast that's my fear and I would argue Elesh Norn probably would go in basically all white decks. There is definitely enough ETBs in commander to warrant it. Even if you're not an ETB-deck, you probably have quite a few and there is a relevant chance your opponents do as well.
Soon everyone is legendary tribal and then no one is.
I feel like a lot of people will say Elesh Norn is fine when all their taplands come in untapped, 3 players at the table can't go off with Dockside, and a lot of other etbs that typically are negative.
Elesh Norn isn't actually being thought in the context of being an opponent I think, because it just makes you change your playstyle and you can possible gain some incremental value.
I'm still fresh into this one, but banning the new Elesh Norn on the reasoning of "its too generically good" is absolutely ridiculous. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Dockside, Mana Vault, Cyc Rift, Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, and SO MANY MORE cards are "auto includes" in this format.... it's a ridiculous reason, it would continue to propagate this notion that the RC/whoever bans cards willy nilly with no consistency (which is true) and we continue to go round in circles...
Wasn't that the reasoning on golos?
I suppose the primary difference between those and Elesh Norn is that those staples promote gameplay while Elesh Norn stifles it. "You play the game better" vs "Your opponents don't play the game at all".
To be honest, the idea of a staple COMMANDER card sounds like something a playgroup probably just agrees not to use because it creates less interesting games, yeah? Why bother with a singleton format if you want your deck to play the same way every time?
Instead of free interaction i think that a design where they cost less if you have your commander would be better.
Example. 3+blue mama counterspell that costs x less where x is the highest cmc of a commander on your field.
This is a huge issue me and my friends have. We play decks with interaction and when we go to lgs or play on Spell table people whine and complain when we interact with thier deck
Removal is not interaction, it's the opposite. It's you preventing interaction. If the spells being cast don't matter, that's non-interactive. And that's exactly what removal does, makes the spells being cast not matter.
Bounce lands are a really easy way to play around an opponents Elesh Norn
"sure I'll play lotus field, oh I dont need to sac my lands what a shame"
If Elesh Norn does become a staple, hopefully the bounce lands become more prominent again.
I’ll pass.
i was agnostic on elesh, but after the game knights episode, I understood the level of obnoxious suffering this could turn out to be.
Each other preator that restricts opponents gives a bit of an out at least, elesh norn though just says nope. even a "once on their turn your opponents may ignor this effect." would've put it in a much better space imo
Y'all need to pay closer attention to your audio levels. Volume is all over the place and it's really hard to listen to.
Phill, when you were talking about how your removal is also themed alongside the deck, remember: Most people do not build decks on a theme, bc most people are not content creators. That's literally a "you problem".
Nah plenty of people do themed decks tribal decks are themed decks or themed around certain mechanics yea a normal person isnt building chair tribal but if you made a card that says you cant cast dragons then dragon decks are gonna be mad
@@donb7519 Yeah - people don't actually love playing pure value & staples, conceptually: Tribal being a very direct/intuitive theme is why it's so popular.
IMO, if anything, focusing on staples that go in every deck is way more of a content creator thing - most people have just a few themes they've built decks for & want new cards to cater to.
If new Elesh Norn is more than 5% of decks on EDHRec in 8 months, I’ll eat everyone’s shoes.
Get your BBQ sauce ready...
It's in almost exactly 5% of decks right now. I think one shoelace would be fair.
@@josephwodarczyk977 Man you missed the “more than” and “8 months” clause huh.
Elesh norn is definitely an auto include in any white deck. Panharmonicon, torpor orb and a fat ass all on a (relatively) cheap cmc card is nutty
I don't think so. How am I supposed to make room for it in my budget 5 colour spirit tribal deck?
Proxies
@@mechazard9883 ah now having a proxied expensive card in a budget deck completely defeats the purpose of setting a budget in the first place xD
Elesh is far from an auto-include.
I wouldn't even think about including her unless there are at least a dozen etb effects in the deck.
There is so much "generic good stuff" in white to include which does way more for you. Grand Abolisher for example.
If you insist on staxing etb decks there are also cheaper options mana-wise.
I agree with Crim that Jeweled Lotus is actually terrible in casual. In my group whoever plays this always ends up behind because their commander just gets immediately killed which puts them so far behind they never recast it.
I don't understand comparing a feel bad stacks piece with a panharm effect that can be your commander and be recast many times to a sol ring...Its the feel bad part that matters, no one's deck gets trumped by a sol ring
I’m so sick of the feels bad argument. If a piece of cardboard ruins your night and you can’t shake off a loss and play another game, sorry but that’s on you. I’m trying to win a game. (Obligatory statement: I would never play a deck that totally outclasses the table. But if we all agree to play at whatever power level, as long as I’ve kept to that, I don’t want to hear it.)
@@starmanda88 Would you be mad if one of the players in your 4 player game scooped the moment they saw the card hit the table? If so, aren't you being a bit unreasonable here? You can't exactly say "just shake off the loss and play another game" if you then expect them to play through a game that they do not get to participate in.
It's not "feels bad". It's "I decided you were not allowed to play with us". It's one thing to play and lose. It's entirely another to not get to play despite wanting to.
The problem with printing "scary" cards, because scary is exciting, is that when you keep seeing those scary cards over and over again, they become frustrating. And when you expect there to be those frustrating cards, you become frustrated instead of being excited whenever you see one of those overpowered cards.
There are different types of scary cards. Some scary is fine. Worldspine Wurm is scary in a totally fair way. It's not a problem, it's just a good spell when it comes up, which probably isn't often. Other cards are scary in the "I wanted to play a card game and now I don't get to" way. That's a problem.
I've got so much respect for Phil. I'm also a person who is like "I'm not gonna cut all the cards I like just to run the unfun but efficient removal."
We might get locked out every game, but we get locked out with honor 🤜🤛
That's a really bad take for him and I lost respect for him when he said that. I started taking his opinions less seriously. It screams "you can't play things that stop me from having fun and I'm not gonna change anything about"
@@steven3814 But... He doesn't say "you can't play things that stop me from having fun." He specifically LET'S people play things that stop him, and he still plays and has fun with his friends. He never throws games on purpose and doesn't really complain outside of maybe one or two "Aw geeze, come on man" comments in a game. So you're just wrong about that 🤷♂️
Great shirt and great band, phil!
A big weakness for Elesh Norn and the Praetors in general is that they don’t have any built in self-defense (except Progress Tyrant). They all die to removal so easily, despite typically having enormous mana costs
The thing with elesh norn is that most of the time people slap their removal on etb effects, making it more difficult to remove. And if it isnt removed, norn will go nuts.
@@sympathism exactly, just like Phil said, if you make your deck synergistically (running removal on creatures) then you just lose. You're punished for building your deck in the fun, some would say best, way.
@@bye1551 If your deck isn't synergistic, can you really call it a deck? At that point isn't it just a pile of random paper?
Modern era commander is they want their cake and to eat it to.
Lord forbid people not just play solitaire with each other
I’ve been playing tergrid since day one the card reads alot stronger then it is most games end with tergrid costing 10+ mana
I mean yeah it a kill that player and commander on sight card that not really a good thing tho if someone has a Tergrid deck at the table I probally just kill them first no question asked
Tergrid seems a lot more dangerous in the 99 than as commander, because all of the good discard and sacrifice effects are multicolor.
Crim is the contrarian that keeps me coming back.
I’ve recently been increasing my removal in all my decks, up from like 10 to 15 spells (including 2-3 wipes). Norn is just the newest must remove threat, there are so many of them now she’s just a drop in the bucket
We need more instant speed removal and stack interaction from permanents so permanent tribal muldrotha can upgrade from lilting refrain and daring apprentice and lunar opposition and seal of doom to some cards that are worth playing in your deck.
Out of curiosity, how often do you have games where you're stuck drawing more removal than gas? Do the decks just wind up feeling like control at a certain threshold?
that is actually just ridiculous, all your decks are nearly just removal tribal then, a tribal deck is generally 20+ cards of a tribe. some people only put 12 and call it a tribal deck.(CGB)
@@TheSpunYarn it’s rare that I end up with a removal spell that I don’t want in my hand. The trick is to play synergistic removal like removal on an ETB creature, one sided board wipes, 2-for-1 removal, removal that replaces itself or is repeatable, etc. But I will also play generous gift, beast within, chaos warp, and the other affordable staples to make sure I can answer the big threat at instant speed towards the end of the game. Honestly none of my decks feel like control and are mostly creature decks.
@mfitkin Interesting. I have a creature deck in Esper that packs a lot of interaction - most of which is on theme - but even then sometimes I feel stuck with just removal and too few critters. You've probably just got a better ratio than me!
I think new Elesh Norn is GOOD for commander. Just like how we are asking for anti-treasure tech, this is anti-ETB tech. As someone who HATES playing against blink decks that take 30 minute turns, this boogeyman is just what the format needs.
yea but it also shuts off cards that come in precons and beginner budget decks like solemn and the elf that fetches on etb it should of at least had a once per turn on the second clause
I wouldn't say GOOD. I would say STRONG. There are other design decisions that could have been made to make this more for what you are worried about. Strict Proctor allows for those "one time" ETRB's to be feasible, but not something close to infinite.
I’d like to suggest you are misrepresenting Sheldon on this card. He is not against removal, hate pieces or interaction. Has he come out opposed to hushbringer, Stoney silence, Rest in peace, etc… No. When I read his article I got the impression that it was the amount of power in one card (in what it offers and takes away). How many people thought let’s make a better panharmonicon for one more mana. Then we will give it a good stats. But that’s not enough let’s also make it shut down multiple strategies.
I like the card but I can see its concern. People will play it for the panharmonicon effect. There is better torpor orb effects if that’s what you want that effect. Where I see the concern is that it gives a strong penalty to your opponents whether you (as the one playing the card) are wanting that effect or not. Not everyone is going to want to play that impactful of a hate piece.
So, I think Sheldon's big problem with Elesh Norn is if you bring Elesh Norn torpor orb tribal (and just ignore the first line of text). Sheldon would more than likely not have a deck that could interact with you meaningfully. Sheldon's decks and play styles are very dated, which is why it sounds like the sky is falling every time a new powerful card comes out. A similar article came out when Tergrid was first released, and the RC stated they had her on the short watch list.
she still is and a lot of people still want her banned
I don't think it's unfair to say a 1 card combo that shuts off entire deck strategies is OP. Especially when the best way to counter the card is with ITSELF. If the most effective counterplay is a mirror match, you've made a mistake in game design.
Tomer's compleation is near. His transformation into the Hero we need is at hand.
I don't think that the new Elesh Norn is a problem purely because of how powerful it is, but rather because it has powerful effect that is fun to play stapled onto a powerful effect that isn't fun to play against. Individually, both halves of the card are fine, but when you put them together, you get an extremely powerful card that I expect people to play purely for the Panharmonicon effect without considering the negative effect that the Torpor Orb ability has on the experience of the rest of the table
Most of the old praetors have the exact same problem. They have pretty cool abilities for you that are also attached to unbearably oppressive effects for your opponents. Except Urabrask, it seems that WotC just hates Urabrask. Or wants us to like Urabrask I guess. He never did nothin to nobody. He's a good noodle. At least the new Sheoldred is fair. You can break him, but at that point he's not the problem, you are. I still don't really understand how the old praetors made it past playtesting. The new batch is toned down at least... except for Elesh Norn who is somehow even more oppressive than her original form.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 The old Praetors were made before Commander was widely played, so them making it past playtesting makes a lot more sense. Most of them just existed to serve as expensive game enders for 1v1 formats. I'm really not sure who decided that much cheaper versions of that same formula were a good idea in a world dominated by a casual multiplayer format
@@ianlide1507 I started playing in 2011 and took a in the middle of the khans block, and I think I'd played something like 5 total 1v1 games? None of them in an official format, just casual kitchen table magic using any cards we had that the playgroup hadn't quietly agreed not to use because they aren't fun. One of our players ran a reanimator deck that would semi-regularly bust out a turn 1 sheoldred, until they stopped playing the deck at all because it was no fun for anybody at the table, including them. It's just not fun to win a 4 player game on turn 5 solely because you were the only player allowed to do anything. And it's certainly not fun to be the players not allowed to do anything.
I guess my point is, the old praetors were unbelievable BS even on release, outside of commander. Definitely agree that it's very silly to try and push "don't play the game" attached to cards as if it's a thing we should want to be putting in our decks.
I also think it's funny that Commander players will complain about needing removal in their deck for cards like Elesh Norn, when half of your decklist in formats like Modern are the same handful of answers to your opponent's threats. Commander is casual, but you shouldn't be an idiot, or you'll lose games. If you want to play a deck with all fun and no answers, you can. Just don't complain when you lose to the first thing your opponent plays.
Unless you're playing hard control, inevitably in the war between questions and answers, questions will always win.
@@Tvboy777 Yours can't win if theirs already did.
Probably, but I will say Sheldon is more in touch with the casual side of the fanbase if people think we should push generically good stax cards for the format. I don't even care if people go all land destruction on me, but it's not pleasant when I see other people flip out about stax pieces.
@@Spaced92 Out of curiosity, what do you think of Dranith Magistrate?
I agree 100%
31:46 yessss, i thought farewell was way too strong and no one else thought so, i thought i was crazy
Soon the new Elesh came out I was a bit disappointed in what it did but everyone around me seem to think that it was broken. So for a whole week whenever I played Commander I did an experiment where I counted how many ETB triggers even happened during a game.
Outside of a dedicated ETB deck it happened maybe four or five times a game.
So when Sheldon and the rest of the community complain about how negatively this will affect the format, considered how many ETB triggers even happened in your average game. If anything it shut off more threats like dockside then shutdown a player's ability to play
Even if you don't have too many etb triggers, Elesh Norn works like a stax piece keeping others from having their triggers. I think it's more powerful than it looks.
How does that make two treasure? Smother tithe isn't an ETB.
@@jetsetdizzy9433 you're right. I've changed the comment to reflect this
Bootlegger's Stash was priced way higher than reason on release. I thought it would be pretty sweet but it has underperformed in anything not focused around artifacts/treasures/tokens that I've tried.
Phil is 100% correct. Elesh Mom should have had the double White pip like every other Praetor.
I can see Norn as a bit of a feel bad considering it's etb stax, but why are we not just banning all stacks, all counters, all discard, all removal, all combo... we should ban ramp for Crim.
Just play the damn game and enjoy the company, sometimes you get hosed.
P.S. I do also love interaction, even my lower power no combo no tutor decks run 15-20+ interaction and loads of draw/selection. I also see stax as a fun puzzle to solve, i'm probably a spike though.
My playgroup did ban poison counters, discard, and combos that the group felt made the game un-fun. Not because the losers wanted to, but because the winners could see that the game wasn't fun for everyone else, and adjusted on their own. To be honest I find it weird that any playgroup wouldn't be doing the same naturally. As a result, I'm constantly baffled by the MtG community's views on things.
Out of curiosity, do you consider removal to be interaction? Because logically, it should be inherently non-interactive, right? You are looking at the game state and saying "no I'd rather not", whereas interaction would be looking at the game state and adjusting your plan accordingly. Like, inherently the goal of control is to be the only one playing the game, that's how you win, and removal is the way they achieve that goal. It should be obvious that one player playing solitaire while everyone else does nothing is not interactive, so surely the method that achieves that goal is inherently not interactive? Sorry if this comes across the wrong way, I am genuinely curious about your answer to these questions, and whether you've considered these ideas.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 it's a lot to unpack, but interaction in the mtg language is anything that can reach out and interact with your opponent outside of turning sideways and hitting them in the face. So yes removal is "interaction" as you are interacting with your opponent, presumably with the intention of not losing, which is probably one of the most interesting bits of magic for people who like decisions.
Now in a 1v1 format control is trying to take over the board and win through advantage and can do this with a mix of interaction, card draw and finishers. In edh this doesn't tend to work as you can't 1 for 1 against 3 people and keep up on cards, so control decks rely on breaking pairity on stax pieces, wrath effects or pinpoint removal to keep themselves alive, normally before a combo win. This can be really frustrating for combat/ramp oriented groups as people tend to just want to cast their cool things and turn stuff sideways, if that's what a playgroup wants to do and it suits them fair enough however i personally prefer a game with setbacks and unexpected challenges as i find it makes the victories sweeter and the near defeats more memorable.
Part of the interaction here as an opponent of "control" is knowing how to play the game against them and acting acordingly, if there is a heavy counterspell deck at the table everytime a big threat comes down i'm looking at them first to try and get some of that resource out of their hand, if i'm against wrath tribal i'm sandbagging some stuff to rebuild, if i'm playing against stax it's a puzzle to solve rather than a reason to be upset (as long as it's not a surprise "whoops all stax" deck). This means that when i sit down at a table of my peers i'm expecting my things to get countered so i'm baiting or waiting for them to be tapped down, i'm holding my own pieces of interaction for something important or game ending for me, i'm sandbagging some threats because a wrath feels imminent as someone has a lot of creatures, etc.
When i play at a pod with a playgroup similar to yours i sometimes apologise and walk away, sometimes i offer to be archenemy, sometimes i play my weakest deck and occasionally i'll meet some people who want to try something new. I always point out my combo pieces as they hit the stack, i always point out my own large threats, i'll make people aware of my open mana when they are playing into it and i warn people over extending of impending wraths, i find that with more understanding of the reasons and thought process of this style of play people tend to adopt to it as it adds more options and depth the a game.
A playground of tournament players or cedh players can have the same outcome from a game where only 6 spells resolved and the game ended with an infinite combo on turn 3 as a combat group can have after a turn 12 turning things sideways slugfest. "Man that force on my naus was perfect timing, i thought i could sneak it through on endstep after that fight over the rule of law, who knew he had the instant speed win over the top of the silence effect without tutoring, next time i'll try and time it better!" Is basically the same as "Oh wow, that last turn was crazy. I didn't expect you to be able to block all that damage and stay alive, then he did all that extra damage to him and you had enough to get us all down and hold up a couple of blockers, crazy turn mate lets go again!"
@@egoish6762 I see. That all makes sense and seems perfectly reasonable. Though, I would consider combat to be the primary form of interaction in the game. If I set up a threat like quietus spike+warlock class they block or lose the game on the spot. I tend to prefer more midrange synergy that ends on a splashy non-infinite combo setup with a lot of pieces, and I've found it's really easy to make combat an series of meaningful interactions rather than just being damage. I rarely find the damage of combat to be the point, usually combat for me is a form of removal or a value engine.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 combat can definately be interaction, lowering life totals is the core of the game and forcing blocks or utilising death touchers, etc. is certainly valuable.
However when MTG players talk about interaction they aren't necessarily talking about interacting with the opponents directly, more about having answers to problems. Drawing cards on damage, etc. is a great form of value but the trouble with combat as "interaction" is often it is the opponents decision whether that interaction succeeds or not rather than being a true answer to an issue like a removal, counter or boardwipe.
Edit: quietus spike + warlock class is basically a 3 card combo with the attacking creature as well. Combo's don't have to be infinite or thorracle based to still be playable. I think thats a pretty good mid tier combo for a decent deck, especially if you have unblockable or equipment synergies.
@@egoish6762 Isn't the fact that both players decide the outcome together what makes it interaction? Inter- being a prefix meaning among or between, and action being the root word. It seems odd, then, for MtG players to define interaction in a way that makes both players' involvement not count as interaction yet suggests one player making unilateral decisions is interaction.
I had a similar thing with the universes beyond cards. I think some have cool design, but aesthetically I typically prefer their magic version. I wasn't a huge fan of the street fighter cards even though the card effect design was interesting, but as soon as I saw their mtg version I fell in love with the Zethi.
Duran Duran's A View to a Kill is my favorite Bond intro. The movie itself was pretty meh for a bond film though.
The longer I look at opposition agent, the less threatening it seems.
Universes Beyond is part of a larger problem in media right now. Right now there is a big emphasis on "oh remember that other thing you like" and there is no substance behind that. We see this in other IP's as well where there are a lot of crossovers. I really hate it and wish Wizards just focused on their own IP
Phil has good takes. All he's really saying is "I play Commander as if it's a format", and phrasing it within the context of the specific topic over and over again.
Tergrid is kill on sight in my opinion. The deck is only mildly annoying without Tergrid since discarding cards isn’t fun, but keeping Tergrid off the battlefield is always my top priority.
I think the land destroying sentiment is wildly misrepresented and done so often by content creators. Mass land destruction is frowned upon. Yes. I believe many people share the view of it being a tactic that is viable and even accepted in a one vs one format, but less so in a multi person format where it often leads to games drawn out unnecessarily. Single target removal on lands is something I have yet to run across anyone who has a problem with. If you play a Gaea's Cradle/Nykthos/Cabal coffers etc. then you pretty much play that epecting some opponent to deal with it at some point...and if no one does, then that's a battle they'll have to fight on a different axis in dealing with the spells you're able to launch into.
I'm looking forward to the podcast where you all discuss land destruction and the seeing the multitude of comments stating their viewpoints on single vs mass.
I have to say that people hate when I play humility and make my friends creatures worthless. Elesh does something similar to iona where it could completely remove another player from the game until it leaves the battlefield.
On a side note, bounce lands are amazing against this thing 👍
But those lands are now rarely used. I thought about that. Could I benefit more than not from the opponents having this? It turns out, no. It is still pretty back breaking to basic strategies built into the format.
Bootlegger's Stash is still strong as hell. Marionette Master immediately kills the table and fireweaver is close to it. In the golgari squirrel commander they can perma-kill all creatures.
Can't wait for folks to realize the best way to beat an Elesh Norn is to copy an Elesh Norn. Their removal is probably going to be 90% O rings and such that won't work against my Mirror Image or whatever.
Can't wait for folks to realize competent deckbuilders are not caring about her first ability, only the second.
The key difference between Oppo Agent and Hullbreacher/Norn is that it does its thing and then that's mostly it. It continues to block your opponents, but won't advance your own game plan. You can avoid casting tutors to play around it. You can't play around your opponent turning Windfall into Double Recall + Mindslicer + Dockside. You can't play around your opponent casting their own Portal to Phyrexia.
Sol ring is one card that comes in every deck so everyone has them also they printed it 30 years ago so it’s not like they just made it for the format like elesh norn
You joke about a Darth Vader card, but I'd snap buy that secret lair.
Go watch the Professor's interview with Sheldon... the dude LOVES Sol Ring. That alone should probably help clarify his decision making process 😂
I mean... playing the game = good and not playing the game = bad. That seems like solid decision making to me.
No one complains about fairwell???? Well you haven't met me then!!!
If it were choose two I'd think it were fine. Since it's mix and match pick 4, it's undercosted for what it does.
For universes beyond. I am fine with it, as long as we get magic version's of those cards. If not..... Bad feeling.
Elesh Norn is fine. One thing to point out is Torpor Orb only hits creatures, Elesh Norn hits everything.
Also, you can't complain if you don't run removal. If you don't run interaction then complain when others do, you're just crying that someone isn't letting you win.
Removal is not interaction. Removal is the prevention of interaction. If you want interaction, play combat tricks. Play creatures that have meaningful combat abilities. Play enchantments that interact with other pieces on the board in more meaningful ways than "hurr durr you dun have ting no more". Removal is NOT interaction. Howling Moon is infinitely more interactive than Counterspell or Doom Blade.
I say that, but you won't. Because those things are weaker than the non-interactive easy wins that removal represent. Playing interactive magic requires NOT playing heavy swiss army knife removal suites. But you win more by creating those non-interactive board states. So why would you stop? Obviously they're the problem if I've got these useless removal spells stuck in my hand, right? It's them *not having anything* that's the problem, yeah... it can't be that I've cast a 1 for 1 removal spell on every single spell that's been cast this game, plus thrown in a bunch of card draw on top of it... right? It's not MY fault their card draw doesn't say "can't be countered". it's not MY fault that their creatures don't have hexproof. And of course the flood of tokens weren't indestructible, that was a mistake on their part. Surely I'm not the problem. I'm not the one who created this empty non-interactive board of theirs. No, it's a personal failing because I'm actually smart and handsome and definitely have an adequate or above penis. Totally not me that's the issue.
I apologize if I went too far there. Not really sorry about anything I said though, it's all just how it is. That's the mindset of any idiot saying removal is interaction despite it inherently creating non-interactive gamestates.
Commander players: You should have answers for silver bullet cards your opponents play
Also commander players: Tutors bad for format
A: you pack every deck with a critical mass of generic good removal spells cutting customization
B: you run tutors cutting randomness.
If you have to expect silver bullets every game how do you build your funky decks? The problem is torpor orb, RIP and other stax pices are only stopping your opponents so many aren't intrested in doing that. Elesh norn is so pushed in every direction that objectively it is correct to run in most white decks. Stacks pices aren't supposed to be THIS good for you. Traditional stacks requires you to build around it, elesh requires you to have 50 bucks to throw at wizards
Yeah, I do agree that there's weirdness when it comes to the culture around removal. In a lot of cases, the way you round that corner is playing removal that ties into the rest of the deck, but that's liable to run into Phil's Norn problem where the removal gets shut down alongside the deck.
I've also been seeking out different kinds of cards just for the fun of it - I've had decks that focus on two-for-one removal like Ashes to Ashes, or a Liesa angel tribal that runs mutually-beneficial white card draw purely for the flavour, but I care about that kind of subtheming more than other players seem to.
Question about the consistency of salt between Elesh and Tergrid.
27:02 Phil: "opponents won't have fun with Elesh Norn" Tomer and everyone: "run more removal" 50:16 Crim calls for Tergrid ban, the salt is justified. I just have to ask why removal wasn't mentioned here, to deal with the card.
Could I just say run more removal on tergrid before they cast another spell? Similar to Elesh being chalked up as everyone should just run more removal before the elesh player casts another ETB card/you deal with another turn of tapped permanents? Genuinely curious!!
I don't own an elesh deck or a tergrid deck. Stax and discard/sac are archetypes with or without the commanders mentioned here, so a deck without tergrid and/or elesh can still do the thing in other ways. If that's not enjoyable is that more so a knock on the archetypes and maybe a bit of a highlighted inflation of salt on these commanders?
I love playing Toxrill on turn 3 thank you Jeweled Lotus
Tergrid is completely worthy of all of the concern people had about her. Leovold is banned and Tergrid is just as bad.
Elesh Norn isn't going to be too ubiquitous because it's going to cost at least $30 to get one. I know I won't be picking one up, so it doesn't really have a chance to haunt my playgroup.
That is kind of irrelevant when proxies exist. It shouldn't matter how expensive a card is. What should matter is how it treats the gameplay.
Universes Beyond is great, although I do prefer the IPs be... fantastic enough to compete with "canon" Magic planes. The Walking Dead seems a little strange as a choice, since it's so gritty and grounded, but 40k is the perfect addition to Magic, Star Wars sounds great too. Like was mentioned it's already a multiverse setting, it doesn't break anyone's immersion to have a vampire from Innistrad fighting kaiju from Ikoria and ninjas from Kamigawa and Lovecraftian Eldrazi. If you can handle all that it seems a little weird to say "sorry my immersion drops at space ships."
Elesh norn is scary. More scary than a hullbreaker horror or possibly even toxril. And I possibly am only playing against this ones and than only when I have my oko in hand.
But the article makes no sense since smothering tithe, rystic Study, dockside I see those every second game I play. And sol ring yeah whatever
But on the other side people possibly start playing different cards that are not only etb and I hope see this against a blink deck. Only problem : this norn is most likely a blink aswell 🙄
Personally as a fan in the wonderful jank that is the generation one transformers cartoon, I love that the cards are hideous. It's so fitting
Finally! a podcast about every Green Mythic
*every green mythic since Throne of Eldraine.
Bootleggers stash for me, is an all-star in my Korvold deck. Especially in combination with academy manufactor and seedborn muse out….
Kuldotha forgemaster is a great way to tutor and get it out cheap
jeweled lotus being called "pretty bad" is just such a wild take.