I imagine Eugen being incredibly shocked seeing the graph for naval players spiking like crazy with not just one but TWO players since the last 4-5 years
Ewww naval? This was awful, who asked for this?? Day 1 of asking for ground battles? Kidding aside, thank you for all your amazing videos over the years and congratulations on your first ever awful video (cuz let’s be honest about naval lol)
The naval balance is such that redfor needs to salvo ship-borne missiles while blufor salvo air-borne missiles (which also means redfor needs to play for AA coverage.) Compared to other games with modern naval battles, Red Dragon is actually the most responsive out of all the games that have it (that I can remember). Still, just the need to control salvo is already too much for 90% of the player base.
interesting thing; HE works as a multiplier *after* the 20 AP damage is calculated, which is why 6 armour and 4 armour matter a LOT, even though 80 or 120AP seems like it shouldn't matter with those armour values.
@@RazzmannWG Also might be interesting; The CIWS value means absolutely nothing, its just a piece of text set by developers, and it usually means completely nothing. The Najin says "medium" but its literally the worst in the game and can barely shoot down a missile, while the La fayette technically doesn't even have any (except the missiles), and the Russian boats all have way better CIWS than their stat card suggests.
Naval is weird because it's damage model is essentially a large APC. Most ships have 2 armor at the most, on bow and stern, and 1 armor from other angles (Muna is funny with 4 armor and can tank HE). This means that vs HE, the ships take half damage from bow to stern (opposite of how it would work IRL as raking fire down the beam would demolish it but whatever). However, almost every ship has better CIWS angles when broadside to missiles. Given the high HP of the ships, you ideally want to spam AP weapons. This consists of four categories: Anti ship missiles, anti tank missiles, anti radar missiles, and APFSDS. CIWS is only capable of really blocking antiship missiles. It cannot deal effectively with ATGMs, and cannot block SEAD or APFSDS at all. CIWS effectiveness drops dramatically when the ship's crew is panicked, which can happen even with near misses and nearby ship explosions, much like APCs do. Therefore there are four main playstyles: First, high CIWS with reliance on cannon HE against low HP ships, usually with a focus on destroyers, which carry 5 inch guns, or frigates like the la Fayette that have pretty decent HE DPM with 100 mm HE; most NATO ships use 76 mm HE which is pathetic against naval targets, or poor CIWS with mass missile spam. Generally for mixed battles and nonnaval battles, the first strategy is more effective as you can use them against ground forces as well and most players cannot get critical mass of missiles. The second strategy is to use missile spam, which will overwhelm the CIWS of defending flotillas of equal cost, especially when the defending ships are panicked first with an MLRS launch. It is often easier to achieve this with ground based launchers, which can fire massive salvoes for low cost. It is hardest to achieve this with air based launchers as the planes are prohibitively expensive and easy to shoot down. However, if you do use air based ASMs, go from bow or stern where the CIWS is weakest. A third strategy is to avoid naval combat altogether and use ground based ATGMs and tanks to push the ships back away from ground target range. I.e. Wonsan harbor. Tanks get scaling KE damage and can peek portside cover, while ATGM spam can also easily destroy flotillas (I have personally destroyed a 4 ship flotilla with 4 M2A2 Bradley's firing TOWs while hidden in a forest). Finally, the fourth strategy, and the most effective, is to cheese the damage model with ships that have armor but cannot be targeted by antiship missiles. The riverboats with napalm flamethrowers can get in close, and as napalm ignores armor, you can burn down enemy ships that cannot do enough damage to the riverboats to stop them. It becomes even easier if you panic the defending ships with MLRS and SEAD.
Hello Razzmann, I love how you pronouce CIWS, a guy already told you how it pronouces. I would like to precise for the FLF La Fayette, as a sailor in the French Navy, the anti ship missiles Exocet MM40 are in the middle of the boat and can only shoot with her side, you have 4 MM40 in each side. I hope it understable because my English is terrible >
I think the problem with the la fayette is despite what it shows on stats, it has no CIWS, relying on its main gun and some SACLOS (?) missiles, both having very low ammo count so it kind of gets ovwehlmed easily by redfor ships inparticular Razzy
Agreed. I spent a fair amount of time digging into the naval and by far the best line ship is the Oliver Hazard Perry. The La Fayette has the best offense capabilities per point of Bluefor ships due to its ability to volley missiles and it’s exceptional gun, but the only Bluefor ship with staying power and actual defenses is the OHP. Typically I combined OHPs with La Fayettes and planes on the rare occasion I go back to naval these days.
Unironically great video, really good showcase of how flawed naval combat is. It can feel ok in the campaigns sometimes, but even there the correct solution is to go full napoleonic warfare tactics and volley fire missile salvos with either a stack of ships or a stack of planes. Also interesting insight into development of naval at the end. I think naval combat could have worked better if there maybe were a lot more ships, especially smaller and older ones. Because big modern ships able to tank multiple missile hits while shooting down even more just breaks any kind of game flow (realistically, getting hit by a single missile or even a single bomb should probably disable most ships, cf. falklands war). Basically some system where the combat becomes at least somewhat more methodical than just stacking missiles vs stacking CIWS.
Some stupid things that ive used as a viable tactic in ground-naval/pure-naval maps: - The monitor 105 on vet/elite is stupid good if they got in range of the ships: the napalm stuns ships + huge flame damage because ships have 0 top armor (+theyre not targetable by ASMs). - Also because of the 0 top armor, ATACMS are great against ship, 20 top-down heat: 40 damage per shot: 5 shot to kill the Sovre or Udaloy - Number always won out: Spamming komar or moskit vs kongo is almost always worth the cost, just make sure to have a fob or munas - Lafayette is the only capital ship worth bringing as blue (as you said, the stealth is bullshit; to the point that sometimes exceptional optic heli can't even spot them), Kongo is a distant second
I think you can still get marine infantry units. So if you can get marines into that island or other floating land units. They will be slow, but it might be hella strong to get manpads or chaparal into the center
I've played so many 10v10 games that i think i have an idea on naval balance. 1Blue ships suck. Kongo is a trap, pegasus and 2 missile aa corvette is the way to go. 2 Chamsu-ris don't explode when they die but they are bad for defense anyway. 3 Komars can't be targeted by asm and they are medium stealth. Very good for rushing and ambushing behind mountain. 4 Red helos are good counter for blue ships 5 Don't try to meet redfor ships on open field 6 Blue has tomcats which completely shutdowns red air 7 None of these matter because blue air spam is stupid.
Man took the tournament loss so badly he started playing naval 😭😭
you did not have to do me so dirty 💀
I imagine Eugen being incredibly shocked seeing the graph for naval players spiking like crazy with not just one but TWO players since the last 4-5 years
navy guy wake up, razzman released a naval video
YEAAAAAAAA
Sea Power: Naval Combat in the Missile Age at home.
Holy smokes, Razzmann gave the navy guy a Christmas present
All i wanted for Razzmazz was naval afterall
"Do we even need supply?"
And that's how we know you never play naval!
No way, it's a Naval Christmas miracle...?
He did it! Bullying works!
Jokes aside, naval wouldn’t have been to bad if it focused on river vessels and smaller boats.
Ewww naval? This was awful, who asked for this??
Day 1 of asking for ground battles?
Kidding aside, thank you for all your amazing videos over the years and congratulations on your first ever awful video (cuz let’s be honest about naval lol)
The son of a bitch actually got what he asked for Christmas.
... make airland battle great again
19:53 bro Perez catching strays
deservedly so
Unironically fun to watch
2:57 CIWS is pronounced "Sea-Wizz"
this will be sea power: naval combat in the missile age in 2017
1 month after Sea Power Naval Combat in the Missile Age lmao
should've been the video title
This is the best Christmas present, thanks Raz
Maybe the new content was in the naval tab all along…
19:55 he is used to driving like a boat sailor anyways
Sea power at home
Kinda sad it wasn't the 1st April video. Oh well, merry naval battle everyone !
You know i would have kept going ‘til april fools
Christmas came early!
The naval balance is such that redfor needs to salvo ship-borne missiles while blufor salvo air-borne missiles (which also means redfor needs to play for AA coverage.) Compared to other games with modern naval battles, Red Dragon is actually the most responsive out of all the games that have it (that I can remember). Still, just the need to control salvo is already too much for 90% of the player base.
interesting thing; HE works as a multiplier *after* the 20 AP damage is calculated, which is why 6 armour and 4 armour matter a LOT, even though 80 or 120AP seems like it shouldn't matter with those armour values.
I didn't know that!
@@RazzmannWG Also might be interesting; The CIWS value means absolutely nothing, its just a piece of text set by developers, and it usually means completely nothing.
The Najin says "medium" but its literally the worst in the game and can barely shoot down a missile, while the La fayette technically doesn't even have any (except the missiles), and the Russian boats all have way better CIWS than their stat card suggests.
Happy Holidays my dude
>naval
I kneel
Naval is weird because it's damage model is essentially a large APC. Most ships have 2 armor at the most, on bow and stern, and 1 armor from other angles (Muna is funny with 4 armor and can tank HE). This means that vs HE, the ships take half damage from bow to stern (opposite of how it would work IRL as raking fire down the beam would demolish it but whatever). However, almost every ship has better CIWS angles when broadside to missiles.
Given the high HP of the ships, you ideally want to spam AP weapons. This consists of four categories: Anti ship missiles, anti tank missiles, anti radar missiles, and APFSDS. CIWS is only capable of really blocking antiship missiles. It cannot deal effectively with ATGMs, and cannot block SEAD or APFSDS at all.
CIWS effectiveness drops dramatically when the ship's crew is panicked, which can happen even with near misses and nearby ship explosions, much like APCs do.
Therefore there are four main playstyles:
First, high CIWS with reliance on cannon HE against low HP ships, usually with a focus on destroyers, which carry 5 inch guns, or frigates like the la Fayette that have pretty decent HE DPM with 100 mm HE; most NATO ships use 76 mm HE which is pathetic against naval targets, or poor CIWS with mass missile spam. Generally for mixed battles and nonnaval battles, the first strategy is more effective as you can use them against ground forces as well and most players cannot get critical mass of missiles.
The second strategy is to use missile spam, which will overwhelm the CIWS of defending flotillas of equal cost, especially when the defending ships are panicked first with an MLRS launch. It is often easier to achieve this with ground based launchers, which can fire massive salvoes for low cost. It is hardest to achieve this with air based launchers as the planes are prohibitively expensive and easy to shoot down. However, if you do use air based ASMs, go from bow or stern where the CIWS is weakest.
A third strategy is to avoid naval combat altogether and use ground based ATGMs and tanks to push the ships back away from ground target range. I.e. Wonsan harbor. Tanks get scaling KE damage and can peek portside cover, while ATGM spam can also easily destroy flotillas (I have personally destroyed a 4 ship flotilla with 4 M2A2 Bradley's firing TOWs while hidden in a forest).
Finally, the fourth strategy, and the most effective, is to cheese the damage model with ships that have armor but cannot be targeted by antiship missiles. The riverboats with napalm flamethrowers can get in close, and as napalm ignores armor, you can burn down enemy ships that cannot do enough damage to the riverboats to stop them. It becomes even easier if you panic the defending ships with MLRS and SEAD.
Naval guys christmas present arrived!!!!!
Nobody can defeat the Romulan cloaking device!
NAVAL
Huge naval content
Razzman plz can u make asmr, it would make Christmas.
What the fuck
Wargame naval is SO back
Hello Razzmann, I love how you pronouce CIWS, a guy already told you how it pronouces. I would like to precise for the FLF La Fayette, as a sailor in the French Navy, the anti ship missiles Exocet MM40 are in the middle of the boat and can only shoot with her side, you have 4 MM40 in each side. I hope it understable because my English is terrible >
Your English is fine! I know it can only fire them from the side, but why did the ship do a 330° turn instead of 30°...
>putting crapfayettes in your deck
yeah it's joever
The world is healing
I think the problem with the la fayette is despite what it shows on stats, it has no CIWS, relying on its main gun and some SACLOS (?) missiles, both having very low ammo count so it kind of gets ovwehlmed easily by redfor ships inparticular Razzy
Agreed. I spent a fair amount of time digging into the naval and by far the best line ship is the Oliver Hazard Perry. The La Fayette has the best offense capabilities per point of Bluefor ships due to its ability to volley missiles and it’s exceptional gun, but the only Bluefor ship with staying power and actual defenses is the OHP. Typically I combined OHPs with La Fayettes and planes on the rare occasion I go back to naval these days.
Unironically great video, really good showcase of how flawed naval combat is. It can feel ok in the campaigns sometimes, but even there the correct solution is to go full napoleonic warfare tactics and volley fire missile salvos with either a stack of ships or a stack of planes.
Also interesting insight into development of naval at the end. I think naval combat could have worked better if there maybe were a lot more ships, especially smaller and older ones. Because big modern ships able to tank multiple missile hits while shooting down even more just breaks any kind of game flow (realistically, getting hit by a single missile or even a single bomb should probably disable most ships, cf. falklands war). Basically some system where the combat becomes at least somewhat more methodical than just stacking missiles vs stacking CIWS.
We asked for AIRLAND BATTLE!
you got that last year!
Some stupid things that ive used as a viable tactic in ground-naval/pure-naval maps:
- The monitor 105 on vet/elite is stupid good if they got in range of the ships: the napalm stuns ships + huge flame damage because ships have 0 top armor (+theyre not targetable by ASMs).
- Also because of the 0 top armor, ATACMS are great against ship, 20 top-down heat: 40 damage per shot: 5 shot to kill the Sovre or Udaloy
- Number always won out: Spamming komar or moskit vs kongo is almost always worth the cost, just make sure to have a fob or munas
- Lafayette is the only capital ship worth bringing as blue (as you said, the stealth is bullshit; to the point that sometimes exceptional optic heli can't even spot them), Kongo is a distant second
Razzmann publish a navy video , I feel this world is nearly ending
Volcano conquest video next
I think you can still get marine infantry units. So if you can get marines into that island or other floating land units. They will be slow, but it might be hella strong to get manpads or chaparal into the center
Only for normal decks, not pure naval decks.
@@RazzmannWG True, but I think going with Marine Spec still gives you access to the rest, and can be played on the water maps.
@@KeithBoehler Nope, only water-only decks on naval maps
All naval all the time!
I've played so many 10v10 games that i think i have an idea on naval balance.
1Blue ships suck. Kongo is a trap, pegasus and 2 missile aa corvette is the way to go.
2 Chamsu-ris don't explode when they die but they are bad for defense anyway.
3 Komars can't be targeted by asm and they are medium stealth. Very good for rushing and ambushing behind mountain.
4 Red helos are good counter for blue ships
5 Don't try to meet redfor ships on open field
6 Blue has tomcats which completely shutdowns red air
7 None of these matter because blue air spam is stupid.
Play as redfor next
You sure this isn't Sea power ?
nooooooooooooooo
US and Russia had diffrent and still have diffrent naval doctrines
CWIS is pronounced See wiss
This is so bad, that it's g.... nah, still bad.
What a noob, no komar smh