D&D XP for Treasure, problems and solutions
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2020
- Here I discuss why I like XP for treasure as a means of progress and some options for low treasure/gritty play as well as how to tweak more modern modules to work.
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My way of handling this is dead simple... you can have the gold OR spend it on training and turn it into XP. Or mix and match a bit... but no one gets to double spend a gold piece both as wealth and xp. And I realise this isn't the 'correct way' but it was the way that made sense to me right from the first time I read the rules back in the 80s :) p.s. awesome channel - love your vids.
Thanks! I’ve heard some people use that method, it seems a bit harsh to me unless you are giving out a very good amount of treasure - what I’ve found is that modern OSR modules don’t give enough loot as written, to reduce the XP even more would really slow progression -unless you adjust for it.
@@BanditsKeep yes it does sound harsh but in practice most players turn the majority of their gold into xp which keeps the in-game economy from over inflating and ultimately means that they appreciate/value the gold and equipment they do have. Not having much money creates its own opportunities for roleplay. They can wait for wealth at higher levels if they get there :)
Very good point! I’m curious how that plays out at high levels with strongholds, so they tend to take already established places from enemies or build from scratch (which costs a small fortune)? This all sounds like a very good and simple solution
This seems like the way to go for me.
Just started DMing and I am having my crew gaining experience when the gold is spent. I can steal their goad and they have no experience for it. They have to learn how to protect their gold and treasure.
Giving them XP and then making the actual market value of the gems and statues much lower is pretty ingenious and I'm definitely using that. Great videos, been learning a lot about how to run this kind of game which I just started doing myself :)
Thanks! Let me know how these ideas play out in your games if you use any of them.
In Esoteric Enterprises you get xp for the black market value of the item. This lowers the value of some items, people do not pay retail value for a tv some dudes sell out the back of a truck or on eBay. Items like cocaine is very valuable treasure on the other hand. You can sell a found magic item of grimoire and convert it into xp.
In my current game I use gold value retrieved as xp but, I also allow gold "Wasted" on carousing, making a sword, buying clothing, gambling, essentially anything without a mechanical advantage will earn the value used in XP, so the players can "double dip" if they use the gold on roleplay.
Nice!
We have tried carousing rules a couple times. Then it was a way to buy xp. The bums would throw a party to conclude some event, you roll how much is wasted and get that much xp. Larger settlements means more debauchery. Mostly it meant a roll on the carousing events table. One of our Danish moon-exolorers became known as the town pig-wrestler.
I like the idea of 1 sp = 1 xp. We used to do something that was way less sophisticated, and this was to just run the module normally but you would multiply all XP earned by 5. So essentially you got more than normal XP for both treasure and monsters. But the 1sp = 1 XP idea is a good one and more elegant and solves the “adventurers destroy the local economy” problem that so many people comment on.
I also really like your 200 XP for attending rule. This really helps with having too much of a level difference between party members, but still there is a cost to dying.
Thanks for continuing to do these types of videos.
Thanks, I’m glad you are enjoying these, let me know if you try the SP idea and how it works.
You enter domain play and become the local economy. You start hiring people, your expedition funds a sawmill or a monastery or border fort.
You can let them find large amounts of gold but only give them experience points when they _spend_ it. So they'll want to buy houses and go carousing & such. But the original intention was that they would save that money and use it to build a stronghold. They can still do that if they buy a nice house & later sell it to buy a nicer one with their new hoard. Eventually, they’ll be selling a fortified manor house to build a castle.
True
Even in fantasy, real estate is still a great investment.
I like to let people spend gold on all sorts of things. If you want some scholars to translate the Bible into barsoomian you can pay for that. Or buy a printing press to start spreading pamphlets with the Lutheran catechism in newly translated barsoomian. You can affect the region in more ways than a stronghold.
Your channel is an amazing resource. Thank you. Bless your family and loved ones.
Thank You!
Just came across you channel. Glad to see a fellow OG DM for AD&D 1st Edition. For XP, instead of awarding for attendance, I award a % to next level (1-2%) for participation and excellent role playing / engagement. This helps curb the natural inflation that occurs as players gain levels. The longest campaign I ever ran for the same group was 10 years and the player levels were in the mid to upper teens for the good players who were engaged and active. I have also played in campaigns where XP was awarded for the value of magic items found, especially when they are first used.
Cool!
When I was running first and second edition AD&D, I made my own treasure to xp conversion chart, based on levels. Levels 1-3 got 25% of gold value in xp, 4-6 got 50%, 7-9 got 75%, and 10 and up received full xp value for all treasure acquired. This worked well for us and the campaign finished after a few years with all surviving characters in the mid to low teens in levels. I also like your idea of silver being worth 1 xp, because this doesn't break the economy, but still allows a reasonable progression. I may even like this better than the old system I used. I may try your method in my next fantasy campaign, which will be run from OSE Advanced rules. Thanks for the idea, even if I'm three years late to this party!
Did that slow progression?
@@BanditsKeep We felt it smoothed the process. It allowed a consistent pace (since characters needed more xp the higher level they got to achieve the next level). So for us, was a great solution, since we didn't feel the game "grind" to a halt at any point, while not nerfing the treasure at the same time in an attempt to slow xp acquisition. Players found it acceptable, and I as the GM never felt the characters were advancing too quickly for my campaign.
Whether or not experience for gold is how your party levels, this is a brilliant method to keep it low fantasy/low magic. Collectors, fences, etc. will not typically pay full price. RP, game balance, it has the best solution.
Oh, you level once you get things properly appraised too!
Indeed
I've never known anyone to expect things to sell for their full store list price when they're used; presumably any armor you took off of monsters you slew is at minimum a bit scuffed, all the blades have notches, etc. etc.
In fact, the default assumption I'm used to from non-D&D games is a rather generous 50% resale price for used goods. I think 4e explicitly said 20% somewhere.
@@RoninCatholicKit you steal from monsters is used to outfit your goons. Guards you hire from local farmhands do not have kit. But then you remember that you got 20 gnoll swords sitting around.
Esoteric Enterprises assumes a black market sales price. People are not going to pay retail price for a bike on eBay or sold by two dudes out the back of a truck. But if the crew has cocaine or a grimoire or LSD the price can be high.
We've assumed that appraising is part of normal bum competence. And most of all, I do not want to be added with an appraising and haggling minigame in town.
In Gamma World you break out the tech identification rules on special occasion.
I also use a silver standard. The 10xp per sp recovered is a good idea. I've modified the cost of living expenses to 10 sp per week per character level, so rewards can be more modest. I also use the 5% rule of quest rewards equaling 5% of a character level's xp to next level - but that's for something very significant, like saving a village or fully clearing a dungeon.
Nice!
Over at Dragonsfoot forums, we had a discussion about this in a mega-dungeon thread. One poster there said what he did was lower the amount of gold but increased the XP value of it. His suggestion was to lower each 1000 gps to 100 and increase the XP value of each piece of gold to 10. I thought it a clean process that did little to alter the game overall with very little ripple effect.
Yes, I can see that working the only downside is that if you are using the recovery of the gold as part of your challenge to the players, that is, carrying it all, then this will diminish that.
@@BanditsKeep True about the encumbrance aspect. Another idea I've seen is where Dm's only gave XP for gold that was spent, donated, etc. Thus carousing, buying fancy gear, etc. becomes important. Using the XP for gold system as written (which I enjoy) does IMO necessitate the DM being creative in ways to relieve players of their gold. I think things like taxes, thieves, exchange rates, etc. are underused by a lot of DM's who complain about too much gold coming in. I also swear I saw somewhere that Gary compared the economy being goldrush like in areas around his Greyhawk mega-dungeon campaigns and the costs of things would go up as more treasure was brought out of the dungeons. As a history major, I do find it wearisome when DM's try using RPG's as a historical simulation. Myself personally when I play D&D I want the gonzo.
@@seanstone5848 Yes, I believe Gary mentions that as a reasoning for some of the prices seeming to be crazy high.. probably he was getting people complain it as not realistic to have so much gold... I guess things don't change.
Nice to see/heard this kind of perspective in the hobby, and the experience of how the game was played back then is super valuable. How come you dont have more subs? Great content, keep it up
Thanks!
I run with 1gp is 1xp, when successfully recovered, but found a pdf of Drive through RPG called All the Treasures of the World Gems and All the Treasures of the World Jewels , so love rolling up valuable items for the PCs to find that as you say is hard to sell for anything near their value. Same for trade goods, they can find furs and pottery and cutlery, ingots and tools etc that has value but they don't have trade licenses from the trade guilds so have to sell it off for a fraction of the "real" value.
I don't mind the Gold based Economy of DnD as I figure it is just a fiat of the game
This reminds me that when we were kids, we obsessed over things like having cool crowns and for us and like for our characters so we often use even the gold we had to buy those things and of course keep them when we found them
XP for gold is the best way!!!!! In 1st ed, what Gygax did was quite ingenious, ( but nobody really followed his great rules), essentially what he did was required the PC's to have to train to go up the level, and the cost to pay for the training, would usually work out to be more then the XP required to go up a level, let a lone pay for cost of living and buy better gear, ect. Following his rules, the characters for atleast the first 5-7plus levels would be perpetually broke, and as such no excess gold floating around in the hands of the pc.s . Page 86 of the DMG cost to level is Level of trainee x 1500 gold = Weekly cost during training, and the number of weeks is the average of a RP rating you gave them. 1 week of training would be for a Excellent player, and 4 weeks of training for a poor player showing aberrant behavior. Essentially, it costs almost twice the gold needed to pay for training then the amount of gold to get the level. on top of this he suggested DMG page 25: PC should have a monthly cost of not less then 100 gold per level per month for upkeep, expenses ect.
If DM's followed these rules, there is NO excess gold floating around in you players hands. period
I did use a silver standard, 1 silver is the equivelant of 1 normal gold, and a gold is worth 50 of the original gold. and of coarse, 1 sp=1xp , makes gold seam to be worth more, and also had Bronze coins at the same value of the original copper.
This system keeps the PC always seeking adventure so they can "level up"
XP for gold makes sense in real live, and its all about the training. the example I use is a olympic athlete or a concert pianist. they are like the high level character (lets say 9th level or 20th level if that is your cup of tea) The only way those people get to buy such high level is by spending money on teachers and trainers, and they have to get that money some how. The amount of training is way beyond just being. In modern life, those people get rich sponsors, in DnD they get that wealth by risking there life for wealth and then spend it on their training because they are driven by their craft, just like the pianist or olympian is driven by their craft.
If you charge the above rate for training, Nobody is rich, but nobody who talks about this subject seems to have never read the DMG. COST TO TRAIN is ESSeNtiaL. and keeping time in your campaign. Using this, you can actually be very generous with handing out extra XP for this or that (the Players with think your nice, and they still cant go up a level because they dont have enough gold), and it also gets rid of the Murder Hobo syndrome also, as why risk your life for more Monster XP if what you really need, is just that monsters Gold!!!!!!!!
Oh and remember, PG 37 DMG in Bold by GARY: YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT!
OF coarse, nobody followed these rules, so every once complains about PC leveling up to fast and Having hoards if meaningless gold and the dm never thought to have a NPC steal their gold, and they all carry everygold they have around with them, and because the DM doesnt keep track of time and expenses and charge for training, every PC is a Super HERO (like Superman) trying to save the world from the next antivillain about to destroy the multiverse, and you railroad your PC from one "adventure to the next" and everything breaks down, because 3 weeks later the PC's are Demigods, and your trying to create challenges for Demigods to destroy, and its to great of a burden on the average DM, especially using the modern versions of DnD where every monster has to have feats to match what feats the PC's have and on, and on, and on.
Some good points and examples here, thanks!
The training rule is limiting if strictly obeyed as it requires an NPC of greater level to train the PC. That created an interesting Chicken or Egg situation as how does anyone achieve higher level of you need someone higher up to get you there. Gygax’s rule was otherwise pretty slick
@@danielrowan4716 There is no chicken and the egg because, if people read on, (DMG page 86 top of second column) after some one reaches "Name" level they no longer need a trainer, but they only have to spend the time and money, hence there is the possibility. Obviously, if you go back far enough, someone had to figure out techniques on their own, but this would obviously have to have been with great effort, and then passed on to others.
So according to Gygax, those very high level characters can exist.
It like the martial arts. A Black Belt is considered someone who has mastered all the basics (ie the "Name" level). After that, One has to tools withing himself to discover and learn and advance primarily on their own initiative. It still take time and money, but you know enough to figure out the rest. Gygax really did think things out quite well!
I'm running Keep on The Borderlands using Five Torches Deep (5TD) ruleset. 5TD also uses gold captured for XP. I'm pretty sure your video is the only one I've found on the subject. I am definitely switching to the Silver standard in my game as it is a pretty low magic campaign. The attendance thing is interesting as well and I may use that as well. Thanks for the video.
Awesome! Let me know how it goes, I picked up 5TD but have yet to run it.
I also agree with you. I give full xp for the price of retrieved art/jewels/tools etc.. I like your view that they may never get full value, but I will let them travel to find a seller, to get a better price, and make that an adventure. What is more, if they are keeping the loot in a bank vault or at a nobles house that is one more fee to pay. I would go so far as to rule that if the thief in the party doesn't' arrange for thief's guild protection then they would have a chance of getting robbed between adventures, but they still go the xp.
For adventures or hex crawls that make no sense to be big money dumps, sometimes you can use money substitutes. For instance in a hex crawl they could discover recon that would be valuable to a local ruler or merchant who pays a bounty for the information. Translate that into xp if they think to cash it in. Once they do that a couple times they will be looking for angles everywhere, which I like
It is also worth remembering that gold for xp is a way of rewarding a certain style of play, so if you wish to radically change the style you need to change the reward/incentive. I think that is where story rewards make sense. In a quest themed game gold, while useful, doesn't show accomplishment. You do run a risk in making that change though. Gold for XP as a system is unbiased. (It works naturally with assumption of explorers who are out to line their pockets and happen to do some world saving on the side.) I feel if it is replaced you need some other sort of fairly neutral accomplishment to hook xp too. In a military campaign it could be a series of objectives (likewise for a quest), but they need to be known and the PCs should have some independence in attaining them, unless of course you are all wishing to play on rails... but that is another beast all together.
Well just a few more thoughts for the discussion. Still enjoying the videos.
Good considerations when making XP “for” something besides gold
This was one of the reasons for strongholds in 1e. It's a huge money pit with build costs, maintenance, and all of the people under your dominion. Gold for xp makes sense to me because if you beat a dragon or a large army/nation and hauled thousands of pounds of silver, gold, and other precious items than you gain a reputation like Julius ceaser in his triumphs. But also it may not be about the money to the players, maybe they just want the glory like Beowulf or Achilles in myths and legend, because that's what my campaigns are. Fairly average people that are trying to find wealth and glory across the land. In my games the money and items become almost worthless to players as they end up coming to the conclusion that respect and glory becomes fare more valuable, gain titles, lands, the love of people that they command. But my groups are more in to role play and once payed bar tabs and round with a large jest of electrum they got from a bandit hoard, just so they could party with the town and give back to the people they saved.
Nice
@@BanditsKeep ya it probably won't work on every party but it tends to be fun for most people that play.
That's what I've been thinking. One of the motivations of the party might be to establish a stronghold and become local lords. Then they can possibly become vassals to a kingdom or try to defend themselves as an independent state. There's a lot of potential there. Of course, it depends on the campaign and setting.
There are also lots of rules for research out there. Research is expensive and can be used on things like spells, magic items, poisons, potions, and even lost lore that might help the party with the campaign.
I like to allow all sorts of investments. Sometimes the PCs want to donate their loot to a school and they get busts of themselves in a hall. I wanted to get a printing press so my clerics of Jesus could spread the Lutheran faith in the Moon faster. If you set up a monastery, you might get them to copy books for you as a benefit.
I use the silver standard, milestones, RP bonuses to XP and of course XP from killing or outsmarting monsters. Basically anything and everything lol.
Awesome!
MERP has an xp system that rewards dang near everything. Find herbs. Walk. Take a crit injury. Culture gaming. Do a spell. Use a skill. Deal damage.
My best friend and I were a thieving duo. Our DM came to love running heists for us, so we would often play just the three of us. We ended up filthy rich and so ahead of the rest of the group.
Nice
Lifestyle expenses, gathering information, and training are necessary and have to be accounted. I never liked the automatic leveling with GP to XP and realistically, training made more sense. Just like any trade, becoming an expert takes time and requires competent teachers and mentors. Part of the adventure in my world is seeking out these masters, pay them and receive training that levels up the profession. Staying in a village or small town has its limitations, and the characters will need to journey to a larger city or even to a specific guild, library, school, etc. Making the journey to seek expert training sometimes comes with benefits. Some training can effectively add bonuses, extra castings, specific spells, melee maneuvers, etc. along with the usual leveling. This makes those characters special and the players may invest more into them.
Daniel, I use a system where the PCs can earn 1xp = 1gp, but weight it based on difficulty to recover it. Generally I award at 1/2xp = 1gp. If loot is particularly easy to snatch up I might drop it to 1/5xp = 1gp. Grab a 1000gp from a goblin band in the dark forest as 7-9th level players you’re getting 200-500xp. Defeat the Green Dragon in the dark forest in its lair and carry off 10000gp, you’re getting 10000xp. I also do a lot of milestone xp awards such as everyone survives the adventure, ingenious solutions and role play, establishing peace between warring tribes (orcs, barbarians, you name it), returning a sacred relic, … the list goes on. It’s easier to do in more sandboxy/ open-ended campaigns but can be incorporated into any module or structured campaign play. Milestone awards really get the players involved and invested when they know what they are and the type of payoff they bring. It’s been great for our campaign.
Cool!
Difficulty creates a balance for the players though. They can rightfully decide a thing is not worth the risk. This rewards risk itself though.
One old school rule is that non-adventuring cash does not grant xp. Jeff Bezos does not have extremely high level.
The crew gain higher level and need more cash and xp for the next. Stealing 20 gold from a jesuit barbarian still gives the same xp but you need 25 000 xp to level, not just 2000. So the drive to take on larger threats with more gain grows.
XP earnings has been a challenge through out the ttrpg hobby and some systems did well to solve this by giving XP 1 for critical rolls and 2 for crit fumbles and the points given to the whole table for level up.
Those can certainly work
Giving out x.p. has always been challenging. I am running a low-level OSE game where players travel the Astral Sea (Planar Compass). I am working on getting their progression to follow the OSE x.p. = g.p. So, what you reward will flavor or drive the player's behavior. My current plan is to award x.p. for good gameplay - and connect the overall progression to what I want to see players doing at the table. So, exploration, problem-solving, encounters, and include gold for x.p. as appropriate. It tends to result in DM fiat which does not feel great. I want to also try arranging character goals with x.p. rewards together with in-game benefits.
It can be tricky but rewarding to find a good balance
I do not like rewarding xp for gameplay, fun, role playing and other soft things. It forces me to judge my friends on how fun they are. Sorry Dave, you weren't fun today. No xp for you. Try to be more fun next time.
In my campaign , The Ten Thousand Islands , I have reigned in prices while lowering the cash treasures so that Gold is rarer ( RAW that half a pound of gold coins to buy a dagger ?! ) and award some XP for spell casting, travel, for skills used, for new weapons encountered and tried out (while WP is enforced), for Saving Throws regardless of outcome and a few other notables.
Cool
MERP rewards dang near everything with xp. The downside was that we spent great amounts of time tabulating xp for petty little things. Every crit injury, every skill and spell.
I have a variant, I allow players to have a stronghold and a henchmen. Players get 1 XP per gold their spend on their stronghold. If the stronghold is attacked, repair costs are a factor lol.
Right at first level? Very interesting
@@BanditsKeepI think you can take the first steps early. I like how you start with a shared street gang in Blades in the Dark. Then you continually invest time, cash and rep into one more goons squad, one more safehouse, one more street doctor until you finally stand there, Gangs of New York style, with a small army of thugs. You do not splurge on a fort later on, you build it bit by bit and then that last name level step is a final recognition
Birthright was the prime TSR domain play setting. There you start as high priests, barons, generals, merchant princess and wizard-ladies. They assume you can start right off as a level 1-3 heir.
XP for gold and treasure works fine as an abstraction of "XP for being successful" when the characters are just going back and forth to a dungeon type environment, but as soon as the game goes beyond that model it is perfectly logical for a DM to give out XP judiciously for other accomplishments. I view "XP for treasure" as a formula that is a decent "training wheels for new DMs" mechanic that gets DMs used to appropriate amounts of XP to give out as a measure of success.
I prefer a set way to present XP, not DM fiat personally- and in my games it works on every level - I tossed out my training wheels years ago 🤦🏻♂️
This never bothered me. I took it players should be saving to build a stronghold, or maybe buy things like ships, and that getting to be rich was something of a reward in itself. I will say switching to a silver-based economy makes a lot more sense to me than some ideas I've heard that involved forcing PCs to waste their money (telling players their characters have to spend their hard-won gold on parties, in character for them or not, bothers me).
Sure, much if that depends on the campaign and the players - I do like the idea of ships!
Retainers and Dominions help a lot in keeping them poor. (I love those underused rules in ACKs, BECM/Cyclopedia, etc.).
Indeed!
I do xp for gold, but they gain the xp only after they spend the gold on things directly related to their class, and not on adventuring. Magic users for researching spells, fighters for building a keep, etc.
What if they are in a small town and cannot do the things like research? They just don’t get it XP?
@@BanditsKeep Anything they can't spend on their class' pursuits can be spent on "training" under an appropriate teacher. Basically if they want to have money, they have to give up a portion of their XP by setting gold aside. Of course I would also be awarding XP for achieving goals and other things. Not enough to depend on for levelling, unless the player likes to take it real slow. My view is that to get good at anything, you need time and money. Sure, practical experience while adventuring applies, but I don't feel it's anywhere near the totality of things as it is in 5e.
@@Dyrnwyn I do not use training cost and payment for xp but I encourage spending on small things on the way to a stronghold. A street gang, your first golem, a printing press etc.
XP for money has always been a very versatile and valuable tool, far too often overlooked. Just look at how mixing it the encumbrance rules can impact party decision making. They might find a major haul of treasure but can't take it all in one sweep. To maximize their take they have to decide whether they're willing to take artwork over gems/jewelry, or grab the cash (highest value coins first) to use for level up and resupply. Their choices now will affect how long they can stay in that dungeon crawl, how aggressively they will pursue return trips for anything left behind, give opportunities for dungeon inhabitants to make off with what's left behind...
Modern gaming (namely 5e) have completely lost sight of this aspect of old school play and need to seriously readdress their aims in what the D&D experience is supposed to be.
True, gold for XP creates 2 challenges, getting the gold and getting it home
cool shirt
Thanks
XP for treasure kinda worked in AD&D 1st ed because it also contained rules for what it cost to level up once you had enough XP (i.e. money sink). The trouble was, and why most people didn't use those rules, characters could level up faster than they could actually earn enough gold to pay for their training.
Training took one week and cost 1500 gp X [characters current level] per week... assuming you played your class properly. Not playing your class properly could increase the training time to 2, 3, or 4 weeks. So yes, training from 1st to 2nd level could take 4 weeks and cost 6000 gp if you didn't play your class right.
Indeed
It makes me imagine Gygax sitting there, a little condescending, and judging if you played his fighter class right.
Earthdawn has a class system where all levelled people are philosophy students. Being a wizard is about up holding platonic ideas of the Truth, because you take the Idea of a chair, pull it out of the astral and smack a fool with it,
I did something just a bit different.....i did things by class.....for example, most classes were given 1 xp = 1 gp.....but for Barbarians....zero xp for gp, but dbl xp for fighting and such....oe Barbarian stuff. Characters were played very differently.
Cool
2e had some rules for this, more or less optionally. We found that it pushed players from cooperation and into a class mold. My fighter wants to fight everything. My friends thief cares about loot because they still get xp for gold. Bards get xp for everything, as the 2e jack of all trades class. Wizards chug along getting a pittance of xp for using Enlarge once a day.
Ooh I like the attendance xps, I like giving bonus xp, but that never occurred to me, I give extra if someone plays their class well, obviously that's subjective haha
I find the attendance works well when you do heavy research/ investigation sessions - let’s the players feel they are moving forward mechanically
It's fine for the players to have tens of thousands of gold pieces-- as you've pointed out in another video, this is where you have to use all the rules. Sages are expensive and might be necessary for critical quest breadcrumbs; or to learn even the vaguest clues about command words or the functionality of magic items. Magical research is expensive, and the synthesis of magic items even moreso. It isn't clear that magic users or elves even get new spells by leveling, just that they can hold new spells in their books-- so you could rule that any new spell must be taught or researched. The thieves' guild probably wants a cut... the party makes a great target for extortion or kidnapping... the church either wants a tithe or expects some degree of charity. There are officials to bribe and orphans to provide for. It takes until name level to build a stronghold, but who says the players can't build a house or a tavern or some other small business?
For sure - though as far as spells are concerned, some systems (BX) for instance specifically say how they get new spells
I’m sorry, perhaps I’ve missed something? Other than the rules for starting elves and magic users (B5), who seem to get at least their starting spell for free, the rules for learning new spells (X11) require that the MU/elf get their new spells from their guild or teacher. They do not say such tutelage should be free of charge. The only other option provided in BX seems to be research (X51), which is explicitly not free of charge.
So my point still stands: spell advancement can be paywalled as a gold sink if so desired.
@@misterschifano sure - if that’s how you read it 🤷🏻♂️ I’m not going to argue rules with you. The “cost” is one week of time.
Cool, thanks anyway. I like arguing RAW because it makes me more familiar and comfortable with the rules and helps me to be more decisive and responsive to players during games. What you said about using all the rules resonates with me.
I think you can start on the name level trappings. I like how you start with a shared street gang in Blades in the Dark. You add one goon squad here, one street doctor and fence there, one safe house or opium den with guards until you finally stand there with a small army Gangs of New York style. It is a journey, not a sudden end-game splurge. You could do the same with a spaceship, a mercenary company, a crap barony with the PCs and one tenant farmer family etc.
Am still not sold on Gold for XP. Isn't Gold a reward in its own right ? Played BECMI through to 5E and are still playing 5E. With my other group just started in OSE back to where it all began 40+ years ago, a small town called Threshold. Keep up the good work.
How would you do XP?
It creates a measurable progress. I think you could take any concrete, measurable goal. Give xp for each hex mapped.
I was doing xp for monsters and gold plus story awards. I still find that it can be to slow once they get to 7th lvl +. I have those old encyclopedia magica books that list xp for magic items. Ive started using that as well. So, XP for monsters, gold and magic items. Ive only just implemented it and they just found a heap of items on a dragon (playing Red Hand of Doom), they got 14k xp each from just the magic items. Ill keep an eye on it and see how it goes but without using xp for magic items it just seems to slow in later levels but i didnt like having to make up story bonus xp just to keep things moving.
I too use XP for magic items - it’s interesting because OD&D says to do that as does AD&D but BX does not. I found myself giving “crowns worth 50,000gp” and such at higher levels - that the PCs just end up keeping because nobody has that kind of $$ but for magic seems a good option
i award xps 50-150 per hour of play. depending on the groups performance,.(do they stay on task and keep their part up of keeping things moving). I award a xp for gp. i do a rough amount of xps for combat encounters.
Cool
iirc, magic items don't provide XP, but why not? Is there a reason other than to avoid putting a GP value to a magical item?
I ask because I'm planning a gladiatorial tournament where there are prizes for 3rd to 1st places, but 2nd and 3rd have treasure while first place has a magic item.
This means that the 2 lower prizes actually grant XP, but not first place.
Also, how much XP would you grant for general note taking? I hand out A5 notepads to players and want to incentivize them taking notes by offering XP per page.
The reason often given is that magic items are reward enough, which is weird since isn't gold a reward? LOL I typically do not reward XP for magic in BX, keeping closer to the "RAW" that being said, I see no problem with it and in AD&D they do award XP for items, so that's where I would get my numbers if I were to do it. The other idea would be to look at the XP (gold reward) for the 2nd place and just make the item worth 2-3x that amount... 2nd place is 1000gp give the magic item and XP value of 2-3000xp - As far was notes, I scale it with the level, but somewhere in the realm of 10% of a level - so a 1st level fighter would get 200xp for note taking. - I require the notes be shown publicly so they help the group,
@@BanditsKeep Thanks Daniel!
I don't own AD&D 1e DMG, so I think I'll go with your second recommendation.
As it happens, you made the correct guess, lol. The second Prize is of 1000gp value. Third is 500gp.
Im toying with the idea of also making the second and 3rd place rewards objects. Not magical, just treasure, but seeing how a band of mercenaries are organizing the tournament, I like this idea.
I was thinking 3rd is a Bronze Shield, and second is a pair of silver gauntlets.
You'd expect a Gold Sword as first at this point wouldn't you? lol Nope, Steel sword, but magic (sentient actually) lol.
@@BanditsKeep As for notes, I like % in order to scale, but I want each player to keep there own notes, so I think a smaller amount, say 1 or 2%, per page of notes.
What do you think of that?
PS: I'm getting ready to run an OSE adventure: Xanadu by Singing Flame, and the map has some weirdly shaped rooms, which got me thinking: You should make a video on how to run maps/mapping in B/X, how to describe them to the mapper and stuff... if that makes sense.
That sounds awesome
I just found it simpler to have a fixed number, but if you want to do it by the page that also seems pretty reasonable just seems like more… Paperwork. Video about describing rooms that actually seems pretty interesting room shapes that is and mapping.
I find that xp for treasure feeds too much into the dungeon economy of settings that I prefer to avoid in my settings. But when I use monster xp and add some xp for exploration or fun solutions I end up giving waaaaaaay too much xp out :D But as I like throwing dangerous stuff at people it doesn't result in much of a problem if my players get a new level every 5-6 hours of play.
Cool
Due to the costs grow, really it only results in a 1-2 level difference between different character classes at the same XP
Indeed
"They will never go adventuring because they'd be too rich" -- Something Elon Musk will never say.
Ha ha - once you are super rich you send others into danger
That's the reason at Name Level you suddenly stop gaining hit dice and start getting a flat +3/level for a Fighter, +2 for a Cleric or Thief, and +1 for a Magic User. You're expected to now be the command center boss sending other people on adventures rather than directly adventuring yourself anymore.
@@BanditsKeep There is a horror RPG where you play the monster hunting side project of a techbro millionaire, Quantum Black.
In Unknown Armies you can play or run into The New Inquisition. Alex Abel, an 80's mogul who survived into 2000 without crashing and burning, has figured out that the best way to control magic is to hire a bunch of wizards and thugs. You get the Foreign Legion offer, your past can be erased. If you need something weird for your magic hoopla, Alex can get it for you. Unlike adepts who are all weirdos who obsessively need to visit and ritually claim the Sears tower every morning or ritually eat money or jaywalk in the morning rush, Alex can focus on making gobs of money. Enough to buy ex-SEALs and hitmen and detectived and kabbalists.
I was thinking in town you can purchase XP with gold and/or purchase Levels with XP, with the price of XP increase proportional to the level of the character purchasing it
Would this be in addition to the XP you get for bringing the treasure back to town
@@BanditsKeepI was thinking what if the only way to get XP is at a place in town that sells XP for gold
I used to not divide XP -- you find 1000gp => *each* character gets 1000XP.
Wow! That’s generous
With gold for XP, the player gets rewarded twice for the same thing. I have a problem with that. I do use treasure items that can't be converted to coins directly but the other way I look at is: The amount of treasure awarded relates to the difficulty of the encounter so the players' characters should receive that many XP but as much coinage as the DM deems appropriate. I haven't tried the XP to gold conversion rate but might give it a shot. entries to learn that many of those poor farmers have hundreds of gold coins stashed away.
So are you saying that you give them high value treasure so they get the XP, but then when they try to sell it they get less money to keep the economy from going insane?
@@BanditsKeep I give them the same gold value as the indicated adventure or one of my own. It's, usually, not in an easily disposable form which gives them lots of memorable trophies without being able to buy their own castle.
We reward XP for HD monsters defeated and gold collected
Cool
Why not have each character class get XP for different things? Fighters for winning fights over superior foes (not necessarily body count), Thieves for loot (especially the "easy way") Clerics for promoting the interests of the deity, Mages for being clever ...
Because that will make the players all want to do different things and not work as a team
@@BanditsKeepWe tried those rules in 2nd ed, and it went exactly like that. The fighter needs to fight all things. My thief wants to grab treasure and get out. The wizard gets a measly reward for their single daily spell use. The bard gets xp for everything.
If you die the new character inherent your xp.
Indeed
I have started people back at level one, or that campaign starting level. All starting PCs are roughly third level in Dark Sun for example.
If you want good roleplaying in your game, you should never give xp for treasure. There is nothing more unrealistic than to have a LG paladin running over the other characters to get to the treasure first. In our own DnD system, players gain xp for running their characters correctly, roleplaying, and killing enemies. Another good way to make your characters spend gold, is make them pay for their training each level, and / or pay guild fees to the adventurer's guild. In our game, the players receive their adventures primarily through the adventurer's guild, have a place to stay when they finish (a safe haven), and gain different benefits like body retrieval, resurrection, healing, equipment repair, etc.
Your comment shows that you have no idea how it works. Nobody runs over somebody else for the treasure. The group works together as a team to achieve goals and all share in the rewards of experience points.
Your paladin can splurge her share on treasure to further the faith. My clerics of Jesus saved up for a printer and donated to scholars who translated the Bible into moon-language.
To enact good, you must have the strength and means to do so. Jesus isn't going to give you cash for a helmet and shotgun.
@@BanditsKeep Dungeon Meshi of all things had a system for body retrieval. An absolute load of fools are running about in a megadungeon and a boom town has grown on top out of a fishing village. You pay a bounty for having your own body retrieved. Corpse pickers might clean your pockets of a little extra on the way. They also judge risk-reward, they do not mount essentially mercenary search and rescue parties to lower levels.
1 SP = 1 exp?
How about
1 gp = 10 exp?
Yup, that’s how it works out. The idea is to give SP instead of GP to keep the PCs low on funds
In the several campaigns I played in, only 1 gave you XP's for gold and magic items.
The other DM's might give us bonus XP's for the adventure.
I personally don't think that you should have to sell things for the GP value to get the XP's for the item be it a statue or gems, etc. Hoarding things to use or sell later to say build a keep or start a business is standard operating procedure. Or using say gems to make a magic item at a future date. Since you didn't sell it, then you don't get XP's for it? That doesn't sound right to me.
You get the XP when you bring the treasure back home, not when you spend it in pretty much every rule system I play, some people do the "spend" thing as a house rule.
We have held on to gems as "compact cash". A ruby is a valuable commodity that is easily portable.
Why not just adjust the amount of XP gold is worth? Times the value by level: 1st lev x1, 2nd lev x2, 3rd lev x3, etc...
Because carrying the gold out of the dungeon is part of the challenge.
I mean you can use the silver standard. Then you lower treasure. Instead of one xp for one gold it's one xp for one silver. You get less cash overall but the same xp.
We need to change how characters loot the room. Looting the room should be a adventure itself and not just hand waved. You need to hire people to get it for you, bandits will try to rob you, and if I was a dragon I would rather destroy my hoard before filthy adventurers take it.
You could certainly play like that, I think somewhere between hand wave and let’s play moving company works for me
What I always hated about xp for gold was that it did not allow for any heroic fantasy. You would not visit a tomb of some legendary hero to pay your respect, you'd go there to kick the bones out of the coffin and plunder everything for evry nickel and dime you could find. And I was never interested in that kind of play.
Fair enough. Not sure I buy the words “ did not allow” I think it just takes a bit of creativity.
You play the Conan style of heroic adventure. Conan would kick the door of a tomb down, grab the grave goods and drink it away.
Late to the party but I’ll give my two cents for posterity.
1) Gold for XP was initially a mandatory rule. 2) Training was also a mandatory rule.
Those are the rules under which the game eventually evolved into as it was being developed by Gygax, Anderson and co. over a period of a few years, before the publication of the first pamphlet.
The reason for this is simple. You need a built in motivation for the characters to do stuff and you need a check. Now these guys were history, mythology, fantasy and war gaming buffs. We’re not talking some casual dudes here, we’re talking hardcore. So they emulated reality and in reality money is what motivates people to do anything, and for any task they need to either pay to learn it, or hire someone who know it.
Remember, the characters are Adventurers. That word has a very specific meaning, especially in a time of fantasy before the whole Bored of the Rings highfalutinism. They aren’t necessarily good guys, but guys with skills for hire. That is also the primary justification for a mix of misfits to band together, no need for elaborate backstories or to justify how a lawful good character is hanging around a chaotic evil character… the solution is simple… money, mutual interests.
This has insane consequences to the game’s depth, level of detail and immersion.
Look at the prices of things. They aren’t cheap. But one thinks a big sword is pretty easy to buy when they come out of an orc’s lair with 1000 GP to spend. Pretty soon he’s got the best shield, armor and weapons and he’s barely 3rd level. And he’s thinking gold isn’t a problem, if you’re handing out XP for killing monsters. But that’s the wrong way.
Using the rules you never have enough money to buy that twohanded bastard sword when you’re first level if you wanna train to get to level 2. You must choose.
And given rations, vials, potions, ropes, healing etc cost a ton of money AND many items are meant to be scarce, everyone thinks twice before just blasting in a room wasting all their precious resources on baddies. Hence they work differently. Players end up really fast doing espionage, scouting, planning, setting traps, looking for ways around a fight either through alternate passages, or using their wits. Ideally they want to get in a place, steal the loot and leave before anyone notices them. That’s a very different game. But it necessitates gold being the most important part of it.
But that’s just the beginning. After these rabble rousers have their gold they must think if they can keep it. Say carrying a good sum of money isn’t a problem. But they have to get into a town to use the gold, for provisions or leveling up. But towns have garrisons, snitches, and are a closed society that notices strangers. And these places all have their local lord who demands TAXES. So the players must decide if they take the legal route, declare their wealth and pay the baron, or hire outlaws to smuggle it in for a price.
In both cases the players are forced to interact, aka, Role Play interactions with the townsfolk looking for information on the above, getting to actually know and connect with NPCs in order to decide what they want to do. A piece of the game no one ever plays or commits to because it’s inconsequential now is of utmost importance and is very very entertaining.
But it doesn’t stop there. In town the characters have to find people to train them. And it’s easy say for the priest and the warrior, one goes to a temple the other to the garrison, pays and begins training IF you choose to make it as simple. But what do the wizard and the thief do? If you’re playing a gritty game there aren’t ridiculous wizard schools, it’s a secret activity. So is stealing. So these guys have to ask around in more covert ways, gain NPC trust, pay a few bribes, perhaps join a brotherhood or something.
Suddenly a huge part of the game involves role playing and actually meeting, getting to know, and be actively involved with the townsfolk in a complex way that’s immersive and important. And the level of complexity can be scaled down or up.
Over time these connections become more important making kidnappings, or murders, or double crosses of contacts very important.
This web of contacts also becomes the machine that runs the game because it costs money to maintain. You need training, you pay your master. But you’ll need materials to cast the new spells you’ve learned going from level 2 to level 3 and that stuff isn’t cheap or available any where. So one of your contacts must be able to get it for you for a price. You’ll need the gold to pay him and you’ll need to adventure to get the gold… or you can research the info and go on a quest to find that two headed sea turtle yourself and milk it for some urine that you need for your important Identify spell!
So this web provides training, info and adventuring opportunities. Pretty soon you gain a small rep. And depending on whether you’re paying the tax man or not you WILL attract the higher ups. So you’ll get an invitation from the baron who wants to meet his successful subjects, or a gang leader wanting to meet his potential partners or rivals. Etc etc. and all because you use Gold for XP and Training correctly.
However, pretty soon the little town that has a limited hierarchy of power caps. There just aren’t any warriors over 3rd level there, or thieves over 4th etc. So the party must leave for larger places. The connections can extend to those other places where new complexity is added. You might be members of the Red Dagger gang in Hicksville, but in the city rookies from the smaller chapters aren’t trusted much until they’ve gone through a lot. And thus a new circle begins with more risks, more intrigue etc.
That’s how characters eventually get to “meet the king” who needs them or has mingling with the Beholder Don under the city.
And meanwhile you’re paying to maintain your armor that breaks, or buy new ones every now and again. You’re paying for food, a room, your horse, your clothes. You’re paying for helpers to transfer the treasure hoard you found, and you’re paying for security to keep bandits from raiding the caravan till you get to town. You’re paying for magic components, paying religious tithes etc etc etc and it all created an intricate tapestry of links and interactions with a bunch of characters… clearing a room in a dungeon is the least of the things of interest.
And when you look at this different level progression rates, racial level caps etc all make 100% sense. And there’s much more this all covers.
Essentially the level of detail is immense. But it can also be scaled down to be a very simple check to balance wealth and the need for it. That’s the importance of the rule.
What happened is people didn’t use it as much, mostly because many people starting to play were casual in these things. So when you got a band of kids who wanted to play they didn’t understand all this, they just wanted to cast fireball.
And TSR, and later Wizards, toned down and then eliminated the rule. But that opens a bunch of holes into the system causing imbalances and problems that the designers try to patch up with power ups, bad “balancing” ideas etc but every new one makes the problem worse. They know all they have to do is say “gold for xp and Training is mandatory”, but they know that 90% of players will go the way of the Dodo.
If you’re playing to “level up”, you’re simply playing for the wrong reasons and playing the wrong game.