Former youth minister here. I went to a CofC university, received my Youth and Family Ministry Degree, and went into ministry for roughly 5 years (2 full-time). Coming from a Catholic background I was very inexperienced, only being a member of the church for 4 years before beginning ministry part-time. Here are the challenges I faced: 1. I was single; no church would hire me full-time unless I was married (this was a pre-requisite), but I found a church that took a chance on me, and I was grateful for it. 2. Lack of compensation is real: first full-time job making $30k/year. The government then takes $7k of that once tax season rolls around and you have to be disciplined enough to save, which is already hard enough on that salary. 3. Unrealistic expectations: I understand this isn't everyone's experience, but I was expected to grow the youth group from the outside instead of nurture the relationships that I had already established inside the church. These are just a few examples of why I chose to leave ministry and go into secular work only after 6 years of graduating college. The church I attend now has at least 7 former preachers/youth ministers and all of their stories are similar to why they left. As for a lack of young people going into ministry to be "trained". I'm not so sure it's needed as much anymore because of the plethora of free resources we have at our fingertips. Not to mention, say ministry doesn't work for them, they feel they have no safety net as a backup. I love the church, but we have a reputation of being extremely dogmatic in our teachings and lack the love and compassion for people who think differently that us. Being a "paid" minister is hard work, because there are a of external forces that influence our decisions. Many are ran out because of hard headed elders, and many leave because our members are not very supportive of someone who doesn't have extreme conservative values. The culture is changing, and I do feel we need to change with it, or there will be extreme ramifications.
Yeah, the dogmatic teaching is really off putting as a Church of Christ member. Reading that line from Muscle and a Shovel where Randall says he thinks everyone not in the Church of Christ is going to Hell was eye opening. We say we don't say it, but we do say it. And I've read several Church of Christ websites this last week that say "We are Christians alone and the only Christians" in response to folk who say "We are Christians alone, but not the only Christians." I mean, let's just pretend for half a minute that group is right. There's more sensible ways to say "We are right, you are wrong, you are damned, hahaha." That reasoning pushes me away, even as a member. At any rate, salvation is not in a church. If that were the case, I'd go be a Catholic. Salvation is in Christ alone. And now with WVBS, Apologetics Press, and other teaching offices putting out more and more content on "You can't go to Heaven if you drink" or "You can't go to Heaven if you don't dress up for worship" (A slight embellishment, but you get the idea), what exactly is salvation becoming anyway? It's like we threw out grace, threw out Jesus, and replaced both with a list of works you do and you just "might" make it. That's the very thing Jesus and the apostles were attacking. For being "Bible only Christians" we sure have a lot of publications like House to House and Truth Magazine to make sure we follow the correct interpretation. Gives me Watchtower vibes. If the Church of Christ is really serious about autonomy, then it needs to stop bashing congregations that use instruments and stop its unscriptural authority of demanding a person be rebaptized for the "remission of sins" if they previously were baptized for the reason of obeying Christ.
Catholic here brother who left the CoC. Please look into whatthe ancient church teaches. Nowhere in the bible are we told that the bible (written word) is the last authority for faith. In fact the bible tells us in 2 Thess 2:15 that the traditions (oral) are also necessary. Your native Church, the Catholic, with all its problems, can be traced back 2,000 years with witness and evidence at every step. And the apostles passed on authority by the laying on of hands has continued. The church could not have been started in the 19th century by a scottish preacher because She is One, Holy and Universal. She is not autonomous anywhere in scripture or tradition. Seek out the history and pray as I will pray with you. I too was in the coc and the Church, not the bible is the "pillar and ground of faith" 1 Timothy 3:15. God bless you and take a second look at the CHurch.
@@RedRiverMan Any recommendations on good history sources? Currently working my way through Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, plus Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years by Diarmaid MacCulloch. (Wouldn't recommend it because the author's noticeably biased, but I paid for it so I'm invested.) I've got a kindle wishlist of a bunch of early Christian writings. Just finished reading a translation of the Didache. I have to keep it quiet though- living with family, plus many preacher relatives. Mostly sticking with what I can find on Kindle for that reason. Current noninstitutional member, on the conservative side. I'm trying to learn church history and it's been an... interesting... experience. I was always taught we were what Jesus actually founded and then the churches combined into Catholic/Orthodox, which wasn't supposed to happen. The real church survived and supposedly we've always been around very very quietly. I've heard one preacher slightly imply we came out of the Restoration movement. The rest claim we're the originals. An Orthodox friend about had a stroke at that, then again with our stance on religious holidays and crosses. Pretty funny reaction tbh. I bring it up once in a while to watch his head explode. I can't get past some of the Catholic beliefs, but I could see myself converting to some flavor of Orthodoxy someday. Who knows. Both of y'all make a lot more sense when we're not strawmanning you.
After ten years with a congregation, I was fired by an "Eldership" after showing them Biblically how to distance themselves from a divisive antagonistic "brother". After the person left, the "leadership" held this wolf in their bosom. On a Sunday before I was to preach, an "elder" put his finger in my chest and said I was no longer the minister because I'd "disparaged the leadership". Later they told the congregation that I couldn't "control my wife" and had served the Lord's Supper on a Wednesday at a nursing home five years ago. I was told I was a "poor excuse for a preacher and a Christian." I was then served with an eviction notice violating my contract (they also refused to pay severance dictated by the contract). installed security cameras facing the parsonage, reported on our progress moving and who was helping us. The "elders" also informed the congregation that anyone who disagreed with them was no longer a member. I performed a Baptism for a candidate using another congregation's baptistery. My wife posted it on FB. Word got back to the "elder" who fired me. His response to a midweek class? "I'm gonna call them and tell them about (MY NAME)." BTW - The woman who cleans the building did a dance outside our home singing "You ni%%ers" have to go!" My family and I were completely cut off by our "Christian Family". Also heard another nightmare story where a preacher was fired because he joined a "singing group" This is from the people who claim to be the "True Church". What a joke! Denominations treat their ministers better. The world treats workers better. Why are the churches of Christ losing ministers? Because of ungodly and illegitimate leadership! Because of grudge-holding, malicious and vindictive people. If you claim to be the "Lord's Church" act like it! The COC bashes denominations but we've had a Catholic Dr who visited the congregation give us money and food. It allowed me to talk to her about Mary's next Annunciation. Think about it - If Catholics love Mary they must love God and Jesus too. By the way, the wolf/divisive person is now the preacher. I tuned in for a midweek class online and heard him declare, "In the Old Testament you could work your way to Heaven." The "eldership" had no response. What a joke!
It breaks the heart to hear and read of such things going on in a congregation. In my 56 years as a christian I have come to conclude that problems exist in a congregation to the extent that the members are biblically knowledgeable and sound. When members don't study and know the word, they're not going to practice what they don't know. As a result, elders are selected by members who are not knowledgeable of the Word and either do not know or do not care, or both, to ask the hard questions and discern a man's qualifications. When, not if, the wrong men become 'elders', all sorts of things go askew and often people don't even recognize it. From what you describe, the Lord may have removed His lampstand from their midst long before they mistreated you. What many 'members' do not realize is that they've placed their trust in an institution they've formed to their likes and their comfort level, and fail to realize the implications of (ESV) Matt 13:41 - The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers... THEY WILL GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM! Many members of the church, including elders and deacons who are practicing lawlessness, will be harvested out of His kingdom and cast into the furnace. My advice to preachers is to screen a congregation well, screen the elders, and be as sure as you can that it is a congregation that is striving to be the body of Christ. I hope you heal spiritually and mentally from such mistreatment, and differentiate between congregations that can be characterized like one of those errant ones in Revelation and those who are genuine.
As a former CofC preachers kid, I hear ya. I don’t think it ever got this bad for my Dad, but many many times church members hurt us. No surprise I have NEVER set foot back in that place. Even when I was told I was going to hell….still not coming back. I’ll take my chances at another church.
I left CoC because of how much they claimed that they were the one and only true church and that everyone else were on their way to hell, lost. the church of christ is all those who have repented and have believed on our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not a building!
@trevorbostwick8894 they were referring to those who attend the church of Christ congregations. Pastor says it is the only true church, since Acts time. 🙁
Sir, you are most fortunate to have a job and a church that loves you. You aren’t homeless, hungry, sick, or being called upon yet to risk your life for the Lord.And you aren’t afflicted with chronic mental and physical pain like so many people. You sound so fortunate. Praise the Lord!
God has blessed me and I acknowledge that in the video. But I should also point out when churches mistreat their ministers as Jesus pointed out when religious leaders mistreated the people.
Kevin, thank you for putting this together! This minister shortage has only recently come to my attention and has become a bit of a passionate concern of mine. 28:27 I love this idea. At the same time, I believe there is a great need for foundational biblical training in our adult member ranks. I believe many current adults have never been allowed or expected to step into a leadership gap for their congregation when a need surfaced, which has resulted in a lack on preparation, comfort, and willingness to lead. How wonderful would it be to see our elders and ministers engaging their congregations in practical, biblical leadership development. As a "layperson" in the church, this shortage has convicted me to re-engage intensive study in preparation for teaching; not due to any expectation of an imminent need, but rather to be a better and more prepared member of the body. I would love to see the Spirit ignite a passion for the future of the Chuch in the adults who attend.
Josh, great thoughts - and thank you for watching! I am very interested in how we can prepare anyone and everyone in the congregation to put their gifts to use. Since my own training is in biblical studies and teaching, I feel much more prepared to help others on that front-which is why my friend Luke Dockery and I have started a publishing house called Regnum Media to give "laypersons" good teaching material so they can feel more confident in teaching. (Here's the link to Luke's book if you're interested: www.amazon.com/Search-Significance-Study-Ecclesiastes-Biblia/dp/B0BW2BSXX4/ref=sr_1_1?crid=9EGTWQJAJI7Y&keywords=ecclesiastes+regnum+media&qid=1683916562&sprefix=ecclesiasted+regnum+media%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1) I genuinely appreciate your efforts to work on your own skills for serving, and I'd love to hear more about what you're going to do. Feel free to find me on social media or email my faithinthefolds@gmail.com.
He’s a spiritual puff! We’ve got Trans college students yelling and screaming on campus demanding their rights to come for your children and an anti-Christ President sympathizing with a mass murderer who killed Christian children because they deserved it for violating the pervert’s rights by disagreeing with him/her or “they”(oldest demon in the world by the name of Legion). We have young people rejoicing everywhere because they are free to kill their babies now since the Dems won the elections. The lawless rule the land now and you are worried about your raise. Don’t you realize that these people are demon possessed and they want us gone? Yet God still expects us to go into all the world to teach the Gospel to them regardless of how much self we have to lay aside to reach them?
I am so sorry to hear that. Although my former Free Will Baptist pastor who was a senior citizen earned a salary, had a free parsonage, & free car, the tiny congregation that he led could barely pay him. Consequently, he had to get a second job, which he did not want to as a school bus driver.
Truth...what I have seen is the elders not being spiritually qualified and telling the pastor what he would and would not preach .. thus tying his hands preventing him from obeying God's call on his life
That happens sometimes. I'm hoping to have an episode in the future on elder qualifications and the scriptural relationship between elders and preachers.
I’ve seen these elders, sit and judgment of others like there’s somebody whether it’s a single mother just pisses you off not good human beings not good fathers not good husbands and they’re gonna try to sit in judgment of others ? No you’re not.
This is a very interesting topic. In the 80s there was every bit of 200 members attending every Sunday now there’s only about 25-30. I’ve seen marriages,divorces,babies out of wedlock, you name it. People are straying away from the COC and going to churches where they can get an emotional experience. The COC preaches sound doctrine and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it can be a bit boring to some people at times. I know that you shouldn’t go to church to get a “feeling” but people that have been through some serious issues want to go to church and feel God’s presence . The reason why the church of Christ isn’t growing is because they’re still debating over issues that don’t even matter. Issues like.. is it ok to have a choir, can a woman lead a song, can you clap in church, just little issues like that doesn’t even matter.
Sadly, there are a lot of CoCs out there that engage in fruitless debates, and you're right-it isn't helpful. We have to do better at emphasizing the good things of our heritage without feeling the need to condemn everyone who doesn't agree with us on everything.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Those problems listed by "Texasmade" are easily solved: just don't have a choir, don't allow a woman to lead a song in a mixed setting, don't clap after a baptism as if you are at an Alabama or Georgia game. Those are all the safe positions, and there is no need in trying to debate them. You are 100% correct on unqualified elders, and you described them to a "T".
The glue that ought to keep believers in Christ together despite debatable doctrines existing within the church is the love of God (1 Cor. 13). But if the church interprets the perfect to come in the chapter as anything other than the perfected love of God among believers, how can we expect growth, unity, and support? Didn't Jesus say that the world will know we are His by our love for one another? Didn't He pray for unity among His followers knowing full well we will disagree in doctrines? What is that perfect thing that trumps knowledge, prophesy, and tongues if not for the never-ending love of God flowing through His people?
@@sishrac "That which is perfect (or complete) is come" refers to the complete and perfect final revelation of God to man, which the church did not possess at the time the passage was penned. The church possessed bits and pieces and thus the need for the miraculous - the "in part". It is true that the early church made mistakes (disagreed) on certain teachings. That means somebody was right - and somebody was wrong. Much of Paul's letters were an inspired effort to correct those in error - not to tell them to just love one another and agree to disagree on truth.
"People are straying away from the COC and going to churches where they can get an emotional experience." So your solution is to create an environment which is more conducive to ... feelings. They, in some inexplicable way, "feel God's presence", but no two of them agree on exactly how that feeling came about. As for me, I have never in my life found a sound sermon to be boring. There are some speakers that are just naturally not great pulpiteers - and that has always been the case. As far as those few "issues" you cited, well, they aren't even issues. Why would a female leading a song even come up? On each of them, you tell me the safe position (and they all have one - and they are all easy), and you've answered your own question. What has happened is this: we have raised several generations of young people who were never taught, and therefore simply do not know or respect the Scriptures as well as their grandparents did. Perhaps they wish they did, but just do not want to put in the study. I have personally never met a person who "studied" his way out of the Lord's church. In almost every case, the situation was the opposite.
Hey Kevin. Billy Wilson (from Scotland, currently preaching in Tucson) here. Loved your coverage of this topic. Great job. Furthermore, I appreciated greatly your overall spirit of delivery and balance. Thank you. Ps. Of course I subscribed. 😂
@faithinthefolds2034 I also think there's something to said about loyalty. I understand the treatment some preachers have had to deal with, but I'd be stretched to believe we should bail easily upon the family God placed us in. Regardless how badly I'm treated, the CoC are still the boat that pulled up and shared the gospel. That's not a value I'm willing to trade because a few on the boat beat me up. Never say never, but...
Most today are "corporations" with CHURCH merely in the title! TRUSTEES job is to gaurd the corporation FOR THE STATE! Even Jesus taught when men link money making with His Father's house they show themselves in fact to be a DEN OF THIEVES!
Really excellent! I appreciate your handling of the research and how you've woven together the assessments of others while offering insights of your own. My own anecdotal evidence confirms that in our branch of the Churches of Christ the problem is much the same. I'd say that one of the primary reasons that I personally considered pursuing congregational ministry as a vocation, was that I respected the lives of my leaders at a young age. I wanted to imitate their lifestyle, and recognized the real honor that it is to serve the body in this capacity. When they began investing in me, it only magnified and affirmed the Lord's calling in my life. It is my hope that I can invest similarly in the lives of other young disciples so that I can do my part to inspire the next generation of Church leaders. P.S. 8:37 was my favorite moment of the podcast, I felt that in my soul.
Was raised CofC, for 25years. Born again in November 2008, and was lead out in early 2009. Dogmatism, moralistic therapeutic deism, and dead religion ruled the body I was lead out of. When the traditions of men are elevated above the Gospel and new birth, there is no life, it is a form of godliness that denies the power of God.
@@trovelemmanuel5627 thanks so much for watching! I’ve got a few minister friends from the Caribbean-but I didn’t know they were dealing with the same stuff. Hopefully this little video can help us all think better about the situation.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; To have a Christ church, members must be taught. Unlearned members come and go because they aren't grounded in the word. When grounded in the word they will know they too have a job to do in the kingdom. And not rely on the 'preacher' to do everything. When members are unlearned in the scriptures they mainly go to worship for a feeling. They want to be entertained! God is not in the entertainment business. Once those unlearned member realizes worship services are for God and not them they may stop leaving the church.
Amen, you’ve got it, brother. To be grounded, we recognise how unnatural it is to don the armour of God and think like Jesus. We awaken to God, treating our relationship with Jesus as if He is right by our side, and what I truly appreciate is that He can indeed be there if we desire it. So, in conclusion, let us be spiritually grounded. This is essential, regardless of our merits. Have a wonderful week, brother.
Never seen a Holy Spirit led Church of Christ congregation, but see them bogged down in legalism. The legalism is of their own making. There is no spiritual power there, just their traditions.
Keith, thanks for listening! I’d say that’s an unfair blanket statement for all Churches of Christ. I agree there are many CoCs bogged down in legalism, but I know there are also many that walk in step with the Spirit.
@@keithwolfe1942, my experience is limited, but I’ve lived in four states and found several in each one. I think that’s one of the dangers of generalizing: too many good people don’t get the benefit of the doubt.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Never, ever, heard a CoC person tell of a rebirth experience nor talk about a personal relationship with Jesus. Amazing that they can and do talk about minor issues and basically petty stuff. One can not get around their water baptism way of salvation, never even touching the Baptism in The Holy Spirit, which is what Jesus taught.
@faithinthefolds2034 I'm eager to hear the biblical response. I was added to the body after hearing believing confessing and being baptized for the remission of my past sins. My husband however has the same misunderstanding of who the baptism of the Holy Spirit fell on & why... I'm wanting a better way to explain.
Our minister is a graduate of world Bible school. He does a great job. He is being paid part-time $1000 a month. He earns additional income by driving for Uber. At the same time he assigns members to preach and so there are two preachers to help him. He preaches twice a month, there is always in a church one who is capable of teaching not necessarily the minister. And teaching is being done alternately. What I’m saying is there is no need for a full-time minister. Every Christian has the Holy Spirit in dwelling in his inner being cool helps him understand the Scriptures more fully if he is diligently studying the Bible. At the same time he can work a secular job. Having a full-time minister is counterproductive, because other men will not strive to learn, and use their gifts in preaching and teaching because of depression of a full-time minister who studied in the ministry.
Hi, thanks for listening. I agree with on the importance of building up others to serve the church, but I don't think that has to mean having a full time minister is counter-productive. A full time minister can really benefit the church because he can have the freedom to study more deeply and help train others to do the work of the church. I don't think our choices have to be 1) either the full time minister does everything (which is counter-productive) or 2) the church trains its people with a part time minister; there's a third option.
Many problems are due to lack of funds. People are having a hard time just surviving. Preachers are paid by Church goers. Another issue so many want to bring the world into Church. Those of us know how God wants His Church to be run. Going by scriptures. Not a perfect Church but trying to do what our Lord wants.
Paul told Titus to, "Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you." (Titus 2:15 -- ESV) It seems that the preacher has a lot of authority, Paul telling Titus he had ALL authority.
I am a member of the C of C and there is no such thing in the NT about calling in a negotiating a salary for a man who is given the task of being the church CEO while the so-called elders sit on there hands. Get rid of these "preacher/pastor" "one -man-band" hirelings.
15 years ago, my small town assembly of God and the Church of Christ i belong to were FULL every sunday, (150 or so) community involved, sparked, and prospering. Today, each church has regular congregations of 20, plus or minus. Our Church of Christ hasn't had a full time (regular) pastor for over 2 years. Can't find one. I have no idea how the 7th day Adventist church stays open with thier 8-10 people. Used to be 80. The falling away is here. Society is in a moral tailspin. I volunteered at a special needs school for a couple years, and you can't mention God, salvation, or that boys can't be girls. The only dirty word to them is "sin", anything else is acceptable for table talk. I feel the crush of time. I can't see this lasting. We ARE in the days of Noah. There is nothing but evil in the hearts of men, and women. Man has made what was once a paradise into a dumpster fire. Come quickly, Lord Jesus. Please.
As a former CofCer and a long time evangelical, I see a similar issue in both traditions: if the church is to survive, it must stop fighting fights that no one cares any more about, and fight the fights that matter. There are many such topics, and the key is this: If the emphasis is placed on the old fights, the new ones do not get attended to. A church that does not teach about personal identity as a child of God and the glory of being washed of sin is condemned to suffer gender related issues (because they are deeply related). A church that does not teach about the beauty and deep value of famly life and mutual commitment of marriage will suffer divorces (because they are deeply related). A church that over emphasizes authority and scripture to the exclusion of any open discussion will suffer attrition due to a lack of any freedom of discussion or development of personal conviction regarding God's sovreignty and love for the individual (because one is a waste of time that should be spent on the latter). A church that gets tangled up in the fine points of Christology and the Godhead will inevitably weaken the faith of those who are seeking a Savior and a Lord in their lives rather than a high Christology and a firm understanding of trinitarianism. Fight the fights of faith and set your sights on the development and the salvation of souls, not on the development and growth of a church. One happens to be far more important, and is, ultimately, that upon which you are judged as a minister of the faith.
My early years (59'-72') as a believer were in the Churches of Christ family . I even graduated from one their colleges, San Jose Bible College in CA. After a number of years I came to realize that they where so far from being a "Restoration" movement to reclaim 1st century Christianity that I had to leave and never return. Sadly, they are now controlled by what Jesus said the , "traditions of Men" Sola scriptura is so far from the core of their churches it just tragic and sad. At the Bema Judgment Seat of Christ they will all have to give an account to Jesus face to face.
George, you are right: we will all face judgment. It saddens me too that so many Churches of Christ are controlled by human traditions, but I know many that aren’t. I admit, I don’t know the San Jose Bible College. Is that affiliated with the traditionally-a cappella Churches of Christ?
Amen, I came out of protestantism bc of these reasons. Bc the number 1 problem with protestantism is they all claim their being led to all truth by the Holy Spirit, John 16:12-13. But yet all teach a diff gospel, having 1000s of diff denominations. That's the complete opposite of all truth through the Holy Spirit. Its all bc of Martin Luther sola scriptura, when that was never taught throughout antiquity. So everyone became their own final authority reading the Bible alone, coming up with diff interpretations. Once a prot starts being intellectually honest with themselves, they will start being convicted by the Holy Spirit, when they soften their hearts. Then they will realize yes this is a problem that they don't want to ignore it anymore. Which will make them start studying more, & asking questions on who canonized the books of the Bible, where did it come from, when did it happen, what did the early church teach throughout antiquity. Once u start studying church history u cant go back, but only forward, then they will find themselves out of protestantism. Lord bless u.. 📿🌹🇻🇦💪🏻🙏🏼💯
@@onlylove556 I don't see what is difficult about it: a method of reasoning that you appear to possess will only lead one to papalism, or the Roman Papal System - a system in which someone else interprets the scriptures for you.
I scrolled through comments, I read many by people who have left the church of Christ. I’m just exploring church of Christ during my relentlessly unsuccessful church to find a biblically sound church term. I would love to hear from people as to which denomination they have found such a home.
Mayybe it's because of the low pay accompanied with the high stress. Many husbands want to be able to keep their wives home with their children; many churches of Christ likely don't pay well enough to do this without keeping their family in poverty. Also, when it comes to health insurance, the evangelist and his family - his children were on "state insurace" - so the congregation doesn't even provide enough for this familiy to have good insurance - meanwhile much of the full time working congregation likely has better insurance than the preacher. This, plus, some of the preacher's are literally "held back" by the elders. So a man comes in a church fresh with vision and heart only to find himself in poverty, and continually blocked from being able to help the church grow. It's really sad. Isn't it interesting though, the Biblical example is for evangelists to set up churches and move on? Elders are supposed to be able to "TEACH" -- so really, isn't it the evangelist who makes a church and moves on and the elders now preach? Looks like something isn't in proper order.
Tenni, what you've described happens all too often. There is a real problem with how many elderships treat their ministers, especially when you and I know many of those same elders would never allow themselves to be mistreated at their own jobs. We do what we can to address these injustices, but we ultimately have to rest on the fact that God will right those wrongs in His time. The evangelist's role in the New Testament is somewhat clear: the evangelist certainly preaches/proclaims, but I'm not sure if the evangelist always moved on to set up another church or stayed put somewhere-I just don't know for certain because we don't have a ton of evidence in the NT. However, you are certainly right that elders should be able to teach. Paul is very clear about that in 1 Timothy 3:2.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Mhmm - I don't want the elder punished, he is dear; at the same time; the time comes when an elder needs to step down. It might even be better for an elder "not" to act as secretary and "not" to act as handyman - as their role is supposed to be spiritual in nature - yes servants too - but then there is some point at which when one no longer teaches but they're still the secretary or advising and the time has come for them to retire or at least offer to step down. It seems like elders and other roles need a timeline nowadays - like - a 3 year term with revisit and revote - that way it's expected in advance. Otherwise, for the elders who don't offer to step down and the preacher who for some reason allows the improper actions to continue, (even if it's simply an elder who doesn't teach), it is so "not good" for the church to continue this way. It's hard to let an elder know that it's time for him to step down, it may hurt him very much; but that's where God's church needs to be first and they should be an example of humility and it should not be about "the elder" in the first place.
I think "term limits" for elders can be a good thing. You're right, some elders will be better at administrating and others will be better at teaching, but hopefully they will all be honest with themselves to know when it's right to step down. To be fair, that's tough for anybody in a leadership position though!
@gagged_user I've seen it where the congregation is more like 35 people, some retired, some with illnesses, varying ages and varying wages, college age to social security aged, there will be varying incomes and then there are taxes, costs of the church and plumbing and electricity etc., and then if the pastor is living in a high expense area - $60k is not enough for a pastor with three children and a wife. It's really sad when you see a paid pastor using the "state insurance" for their children. With pay so small, they also aren't able to plan for the future financially. But I can see how in a low-tax low-economic area of the country how $60k might work, but not likely in the big cities.
Thank you for watching! I agree God draws us to obedience/faithfulness, but I don't think we can disregard the importance of preaching in that process. God in His wisdom has chosen to use people to spread His kingdom, and that includes ministers of all kinds, right? Preaching plays a huge role in the book of Acts, too.
A lot of us in churches from the Roman Catholic worship rite have been asking that same question since the days of saint Francis of Assisi. Since ministers are allowed to marry while seeing ministers now leave too now while witnessing our brothers and sometimes sisters too leaving the ministry too now we know for sure that it has nothing at all to do with the requirement for Roman Catholic priests to remain celibate. I wonder if the reason there is a growing shortage of main church leaders everywhere has to do with influences which caused the Great Schism too. Maybe today those same influences is found working most among those who trust far more in money and science instead of in god and in main church leaders. The same old thing was happening too way back when people were whispering gossip about saint Francis only being crazy or whatever after he had rehabilitated a wolf who had started preferring human flesh to eat. Since I too am not into overthinking about how any priest or minister does his work today too when for while I was working in an at the time that is now called an essential service I was not about to do the same when hearing that one of the ministers in the church I was attending at the time had left the ministry I was not going to be gossiping about that too. I don't know why the list of essential services thanks to experts in the secular world only is growing instead of getting shorter. How was I to know that being a shoe sales person would become on that list too?
Growing up in the CoC, I would conclude that having "pulpit ministers" who are not also elders is an unsustainable model. It definitely gives congregations the idea that ministers are just hired guns they can fire if they don't like how they perform rather than spiritual leaders who they need to submit to by default. I saw it in my youth, and it wrecked my church (that and no clear delineation of what our beliefs were). In fact, the idea of a paid full-time minister not being also an elder is not seen in the NT, while an elder gifted in preaching and teaching being worthy of pay is discussed in 1 Timothy 5. From there, the lack of organization among CoC congregations and the denomination as a whole does not lend itself to having widely recognized or supported seminaries or preaching training so that students have a clear path to a preaching career, nor do congregations have clear sources of preaching candidates to look to when hiring. A CoC preaching career probably involves going to an expensive private CoC college without a clear pipeline to a career that wouldn't pay much thereafter.
Just a comment on the very opening of your video; as someone who’s grown up COC, traveled to many states and worshiped many places, I’ve never heard a COC preacher called a minister. And I’ve never heard a COC preacher called the leader of the congregation. I e always heard Elders called ministers and leaders because they are the shepherds of the flock. The preacher is just a gospel advocate.
Last comment: I really appreciate all your thoughts on this issue. And I agree with many of your proposed solutions. I’ll add my own biggest issue and solution. We have to stop treating preachers like elders. Stop asking them to “do it all” and work them to death with no appreciation. Instead, let’s dive into what the Bible says about the role of elders and deacons. Let’s explore how THOSE ministers can shepherd the flock, serve the church and love the body. Let the preacher be the gospel advocate without the added burden of being an elder too!
@@kazmynjohannes5163 That's a really great point. There is definitely some confusion about what elders, deacons, and preachers ought to do. I'm hoping to have a guest on the podcast in the future to talk with me about some of that. Thanks for watching!
Interesting point. I think the dynamic of the elders and Evangelist in a local congregation needs to be revisited. Elders aren't the boss of anyone, the church isn't a business. We need to find a way for both to work as a team and one subservient to the other.
When will figure out the way church is being done is carnal. Brethren please check out building your own house church the way the early church. Then egos, intrigue, greed, false doctrine won't have ample incentive and opportunity to flourish. When will we figure this out? Lord wake us up from our sleep and blindness.
My brother in law Kerr is a minister and he comes off like such a nice guy and everybody loves him, but I see right through him. My sister Jane and I have been estranged since we were children and we live isolated lives today, and not once in 50 years has Kerr ever tried to do anything about this., for to help us mend fences and patch up. If MY wife hated her brother, then I'd hardly ignore the situation. Then he gets up in his pulpit and talks about people loving each other. Not only this, but about 30 years ago, I went through severe mental depression and I tried to turn to my family and Kerr could not more than pay me cheap lip service and refuse to become involved. Yeah, he's got Jesus in his life but not his own brother in law. He thinks he's better than me. Someday soon I want to hear what God has to say about all of this.
I am not an expert on the doctrines of the church of Christ, but here in the Philippines you have two kinds of Church of Christ both belongings to the same denomination. One believes in Baptismal regeneration and other does not. One believes in use of instruments and one does not. I believe the answer is to look at the reality of the situation and divide the two groups into separate denominations. Call one the Brethren Church of Christ and other one call it the Disciples Church of Christ. Let's remember that Paul and Barnabas had to be separated for the sake of the gospel.
@@faithinthefolds2034 I must be meeting all of the ones who do believe this. So does CoC have different “denominations” or sects depending on what they believe? If so, what are they called?
@@gman1550 Since the CoC is congregationally autonomous, each one determines what they believe about a certain topic. The way of interpreting the Bible that led many to condemn instrumental accompaniment in worship was really popular about fifty+ years ago: since they didn’t see express commands to worship with instruments in the NT, they believed it was prohibited. There are MANY problems with that hermeneutic, and although some CoCs still adhere to that there are many still who simply choose not to use instruments because a cappella singing is a historic practice of the church and is quite beautiful.
I maybe wrong but. I did not hear one major problem. Multitude’s of people not wanting to go to church. That would be directly related to preachers. No people in the church no one to want to be a minister. Hosea 4:6.
Can’t make a living as preacher and no health insurance,who can live on $800.00 . I preached for ten years, the Bible is the best medicine for the preacher
It’s really tough to talk about “the” CoC like we are all the same. Are there contentious and divisive Churches of Christ out there? Of course. Are there Spirit-led Churches of Christ out there? Absolutely-I work for one in south Texas.
"Schools of Preaching" (can't use the word "Seminary" because that smacks of the denominations!) and Bible departments in colleges have traditionally done a very poor job of teaching what life is like as a preacher. Expectations and reality are two very different things. It would be like educating teachers without any classroom management classes or student teaching!
The ICOC became that way, at least for a time. I personally know about a dozen ministers in the ICOC and they are keenly aware of their denomination's past and are all trying very hard to steer their churches away from that ugly past.
It will also hopefully help to set many people free if they read...Christ Rescued the Thief's Testimony from the "Church of Christ" by Lee Anne Ferguson, for it reveals what the CoC has been hiding for centuries concerning these crucial issues.
They are! Sadly, too many behave more like managers rather than pastors of the flock who provide spiritual care. I'm grateful to work with a wonderful group of spiritually sensitive elders!
@@faithinthefolds2034 , I agree a lot of churches of Christ are falling away. And when you add mechanical instruments to worship, they cease to be the Lord’s church. And one try’s to change Jesus to fit them. It looked like you were speaking against sound doctrine, and the church of Christ that God intended worship to look like.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Sir, being SAVED means knowing that the work the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross was FINISHED and completed. THAT is the only WAY God WILL accept for entrance into heaven
@@faithinthefolds2034 please read and study Paul's gospel given to him by the Lord Jesus Christ --- he said it was a mystery that was NOT known before. Right now Jews and gentiles can be saved completely by HIS finished work for salvation. After the rapture God will go back to HIS plans and promised to HIS chosen remnant of Israel
New Covenant Whole Gospel: Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary? What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below. Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36) We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. 1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Watch the TH-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
to me, having the perspective of one sitting in the pew, the big over arching problem that is the gravest matter for all groups of Christ followers is the culture war. The outer societal culture is now at direct odds with Christianity on ever single item. And its impact on churches is at the root of most problems that are being faced now. It's not a new phenomena by any means, but have to go back 2000 years to see the analog - or to places in the modern world like North Korea or Iran vis-a-vis the adherence to the gospel of Christ. To a lot of ears that will sound as hyperbole but it's really not at all. To downplay it is to merely be the ostritch putting its head in the sand.
Culture is definitely turning farther and farther away from even a passing acknowledgement of Christian virtues. Honestly, I'm not sure what is the best way to engage culture at large.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Well, the degeneracy secular values of the Woke Marxist culture of the aggregate West are anti-civilizational. IOW, they can be out reproduced. E.g., the Amish are doubling their population every 20 years. And even though they allow their teens to make a choice of whether to embrace their culture (their church) or drift into the outer culture, they appear to have relatively high retention. To the extent that Christians embrace the same narcissism as that of the outer culture, the same fate will befall - as results from their dead-end, self-extinguishing ideologies. The Woke Marxism culture has to engage in radical subversion to try to increase its adherents as left to itself it would wither away. The large urban areas are clearly the worse. Christians need to recognize these factors and adjust their life choices accordingly. And really it would be helpful to have frank discussions in churches about these matters - but that will never happen as there is too much fear of stepping on the toes of congregant members (that have absorbed some or much of the outer culture ideology). The Didache was literally quite correct in asserting that the ways of the outer culture lead to death.
The Didache does an excellent job of plainly laying out the "way of life" and the "way of death." It does seem like many are embracing the way of death and hoping for some other outcome, but they are sorely mistaken.
The churches of Christ have been in decline for years now and continue to go that direction. The churches of Christ members were also know for knowing their Bibles which is not true any more. Their children are not remaining in the church and leaving by greater percentages. Churches rely too much on a preacher to tell them what is in their Bible and are unable to guard against divisive hobbies. Most churches grow as a result of sheep moving to another group and not because a church is growing by reaching the lost.
In a nut shell... they,'ve lost that life saving message of the gospel of Christ (1Cor.15:1-5 & the requirement for that salvation....Jn 6 : 28,29 & lots of other denominations are dying or already dead for the same reasons....nuff said
Elders are established in the New Testament. Our modern concept of “located ministers” is not. I think it is permitted but there are always problems when man substitutes his way for the Bible way. (Is it a desire to be like those around them?). Most preachers preach in small congregations in small towns and either work a full time job outside the church or have retirement income. You have a lot of opinions about what should take place. Let the elders make those decisions.
One thing I'd like to talk about in the future is the relationship of elders and ministers. You're right, the way we often do it in our churches is not exactly what we see in the Bible.
The “located ministers” we mostly see in the churches today are not the same as apostles or evangelists we read about in the New Testament. I think many preachers over estimate their own importance and position in the church. There is no such thing as evangelistic oversight.
The “located ministers” we mostly see in the churches today are not the same as apostles or evangelists we read about in the New Testament. I think many preachers over estimate their own importance and position in the church. There is no such thing as evangelistic oversight.
The “located ministers” we mostly see in the churches today are not the same as apostles or evangelists we read about in the New Testament. I think many preachers over estimate their own importance and position in the church. There is no such thing as evangelistic oversight.
The “located ministers” we mostly see in the churches today are not the same as apostles or evangelists we read about in the New Testament. I think many preachers over estimate their own importance and position in the church. There is no such thing as evangelistic oversight.
This is the first time I have viewed a video by "Faith in the Folds!" I am a long time member of the church. I have certainly attended a significant number of c's oC in my time since 95. My roots are in the "old school" brotherhood and it is there that I experienced the most natural and organic of Christianity. Early on, most of which I came across in the brotherhood were those men that displayed an intrinsic interest in Christ, the God head, the Bible and the doctrine of Love in how it serves as the very fabric of the faith, and by which all the other doctrine of Christ is upheld. This Spiritual content of the heart, as when it is ever present in the hearts of the members of the body has always shown to be the platform of Spiritual atmosphere that served as the least instigater of the problematics that have formed within congregations of the coC over the years. Interest in the faith came from (and must always come from) a strong and internally driven interest for the love of God and the existence of an all encompassing truth that is attached to the creation of the greatest gift ever afforded mankind in the salvation of the souls of men, and that is God's love for His creation in man. This love from God towards uswards is the incredibly great and sublime lengths He went through in order to bring about a path of reconciliation with Him and then the greatness that that reconciliation brings to the faithful in both this earthly life and the one to come in eternity! In the old school versions of the faith, I witnessed a vast pool of deep abiding love for the Spirit which is the Life of a true Christian! This intrinsically brought with it a strong vein of Biblical knowledge that was generated by the high quality teaching, that included great discernment and conveyance of God's love as its platform, by the brotherhood within the individual churches of Christ and the desire of the members to learn and absorb it and make it into a transformative experience for each member and that grew their desire to support the cause of Christ, which can only be bore as He bore His own cross. Very every very much to the detriment of the organic nature of the faith, the manner that the seeds of Biblical truth are planted into the hearts of it members and further then nurtured with the nourishment of individual and congregational study and prayer, fruitful fellowship with church members, genuinely Spiritual acts of the worship service that actually generate the Spiritual sacrifices that are inherent to true worshippers, and then just all the things God provides for His children to grow as faithful members of the body, are devoid and as such have given way to a very sterile and intellectualized version of the faith, which I interpret as not being the faith at all. This sad, self-destructive condition in all its civility, its intellect, its academic fashion has quickly degraded the authenticity of the Spirit in some, and actually many congregations just turning them out to be just another empty bag of Spiritually dried out bones! From my first experience with this "Faith in the Folds" I see a great example of exactly this same degree of carnality in attempting to address the issue of the diminishing supply of preachers! The whole perspective is way off base and is no where near the real problem. Oh well, yeah, it does a great job of intellectually dissecting the issue in the same carnal manner one might address an issue in a worldly organization, but it's a far cry from an understanding of the organically Spiritual nature of the body of Christ! But, it is a superlative example of why the problem that is the topic of the video, and nonetheless, the majority of all the other problems as well: total Spiritual depravity! Carnality is a faith killer and the overintellectualizing of the Spirit is undercutting the heart strings that are the very connections that human beings form within themselves that connect them at the deepest spiritual level gut wrenching level that really means something, and creates the mesh between the human spirit and the Spiritual that is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit! I fully understand that formal education can and should have a positive role in the church, and at one point in its history I believe it did, but clearly those days have long since passed and as such education has generated carnality in the minds of the educated, as well as the leadership, and injected this carnality into what is inherently the sublimely altruistic nature of what "the faith" is actually composed and has created a corrupted counterfeit version devoid of the system of faith Christ founded. This is the the same FAITH by which we are supposed to be tending to and contending for, but instead we are breaking it down and equating it to a worldly organization of intellectualized existence tainted with the common and typical errors and imperfections that permeate man-made ideations! Then when you couple the intense beat down of carnality that comes overtly from the outside world from many different fronts on the church, and then the loss of the old school ways which clearly were much more in line with the natural order of the faith (which is the way, the truth and the life of Christ), you have what we have today in the churches of Christ, an inocous, inert, ineffective, sterile facsimile of what once was the one true church that one reads about in the Bible. You sir, YOU need to dumb down YOURSELF, stick a pin in that grotesque and extreme display of pride I witnessed in this video, and pull an Obi Wan Kenobi and lose yourself in the deep desert of Dantoinne until you rediscover what it really takes to be a Christian in this modern world, and what it really means in any and all worlds, because the Spiritual body of Christ is not of this world and its issues are Spiritual in nature and can only be addressed and corrected by applying the Spiritual salve of the Spirit thru scripture, not the overintellectualized carnality of your super-duper smartness! Oh and be sure you take your Bible with you, you surely need it! 😢
First of all, thank you so much for watching the video and commenting. Every time someone watches and comments, it helps boost my channel's visbility, so I really appreciate your help. Next, I respectfully decline to stick a pin anywhere. You've accused me of pride, which we both agree is a terrible sin. So I don't fall into that trap again, will you comment at what specific times in the video I display pride? Thanks!
I found out the churches of Christ are really brazen and belligerent about things they are absolutely sure of, but when it comes to the Book of Revelation and their Amillennial beliefs, which are a direct heritage from their Presbyterian background, which inherited it from the Roman Catholic Church, makes the churches of Christ extremely cautious and very unwilling to let their eschatology and their understanding and interpretation of the Book of Revelation follow anything resembling the CENI rubric. They excommunicated me out of their church in 1983 and it was like a ton of bricks was taken off my shoulders and I spread my wings and flew away from them. Every now and then I will visit a church of Christ, but their appeal to me is completely gone and shall never return as long as I live.
First of all, let me say thank you for watching! I've been in Churches of Christ my entire life and I'm sad to say I know far too many people who have been burned and won't come back. I think you have accurately captured what the problem is with many Churches of Christ, they are certain about things to the point that they are unwilling to give any grace to those who are just unsure about something in Scripture, much less to those who disagree. But because I've been in this church fellowship since birth, I am grateful to know there are many Churches of Christ out there (like the one I currently work for) that are gracious and far from being brazen or belligerent. I actually taught on Revelation at our church a couple of years ago and a man came up to after the first few classes to tell me he had avoided Revelation for years because he had seen people nearly come to blows over it, but he was so glad to hear how we were teaching it graciously at church. Wherever we land, I pray we remain faithful.
@@faithinthefolds2034 OK, l could not say all churches are equally intolerant. I visited Nashville after my disfellowship and truly enjoyed myself. I visited Crieve Hall and sat under the teaching of Tom Holland. I really think the churches need to use CENI to sift through issues of eschatology and get clear of Amillennialism.
Many unqualified elders bow to member's pressure to allow unscriptural pleasantries be allowed in worship. Preachers are faced with supporting heresies or else. Then they resign and move on to more solid congregations.
Me too, and sadly, there are few Churches of Christ that do well at those things. But, in God's patience and grace He works with us wherever we are to help us grow in Him.
@@faithinthefolds2034 if I may, I’ll give a quick insight and then a question. From atheist to believer about 3.5 years ago, and slowly and painfully growing. Visited my grandmothers coC and was given a laundry list of things to do/not do and minor lectures on tenses of Greek and Hebrew after I asked for a Bible study. Trying to “get myself together” in a way became literally impossible. I’ve tried to do the things they’ve told me to do and I’ve failed to the point of feeling suicidal and unworthy of even going to any church or sharing my story because I now doubt that I’m saved. One thing that stood out apart from those things is they told me that spiritual gifts are done. My mother is Pentecostal, but I was new, so I accepted that tongues were gone away with because “the perfect” had come. Problem is, I went to my mother’s church and something told me to talk to God,,, so I did. It started in English and ended with me speaking in tongues. I still doubt sometimes it really happened because of this person who gave my Bible study, but I mean… it happened to me. So my question is, if the coC IS the only true church, and they deny that the spirit can do this, yet it 100% happened to me… where am I supposed to go with the rest of their teachings? I’m truly asking because I want Jesus more than life itself. Literally. I just feel fear because of the coC is correct then my experience is…. Idk. It is false? Like something that happened to me didn’t happen, or am I to simply think every OTHER thing they teach is true and they just missed this one thing. I hope any of that makes sense. Thank you for your time and God bless.
@@faithinthefolds2034 because they believe water baptism is salvific. It’s similar to Catholics believing transubstantiation (communion being the actual body). Or the Pharisees who believed circumcision is salvific. All those things are symbolic to what the creator does in us. 1 Peter 3:21 “…water now symbolizes….”. Paul denounces this heavily because they are works based. Romans 4:4-5. Of course you have to harmonize this with James 2 but if John baptizes you with water but he knows someone who is coming who will baptize me with the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16)ain’t no way I can put water baptism in my sotierology
I don't think 1 Peter 3:21 says "water now symbolizes." Paul is pretty clear about how baptism is how we participate in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. As Christians, we ought to speak as highly about baptism as the New Testament does.
@@faithinthefolds2034 youre right it say and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves... My point is it's not about water baptism but about BAPTTISM
@@lotusjumpingspider8761 but baptism with the Holy Spirit is connected with water baptism in Acts 2:38. In Acts the Samaritans are baptized but don’t receive the Spirit until Peter and John go up to Samaria. In Acts 10 Cornelius receives the Spirit and Peter immediately says “What prevents them from being baptized?” If we take the Bible seriously, as you and I both do, then we can’t neglect the importance of water baptism, right?
I find it frustrating that prosperity televangelist have millions if dollars while preachers and speakers in Churches of Christ live sparingly. Guess our societal focus on success measured but how big your home is, how nice a car you drive and other trappings of the world. Scripture tells us to be content with your wages. God may have had enough of this blessed nation turning away from Him, and has taken His word elsewhere.
Preachers need to learn the absolute truth and quit adding and taking away from the scriptures and my experience listening to preachers over the years and I'm including the Church of Christ preachers because I am a member of the Church of Christ which is not of this world because Jesus is the head of the church but let me tell you I have heard things from preachers that are not 100% accurate now I don't know if they just were ignorant to it cuz I know they've been talking to college and different things but preachers need to take what they're learning from the Bible and if the Bible don't say it then they need to quit saying that it's a fact and also you know people need to treat preaching more than just a job you know people should be willing to preach for free because that is what serving God is about teaching people and preaching and you know and all that we got to be trying to win people to the truth before it's too late for them we never know when the world is going to end only God the Father Knows and we don't know when we're going to die so we always need to be right with God and so we need to try our best to reach other people to make sure that they can be right with God and also by the way the elders are supposed to be qualified by what the Bible specifies them to be like just because you're a good person and a Christian does not equal them to be elders and the elders is over the preacher and the deacons and the men of the church is the over the preachers as well the preachers are only supposed to be there teaching the truth and trying to help people learn about God
@@jamessheffield4173, it’s beautiful what God can do with anyone. But let’s not forget Paul was a highly educated Pharisee and God used him too. Thanks for tuning in!
I am sorry, my brother, but the egalitarian position is unbiblical. The relevant verses are easy to find. Everyone who is honest knows them but are choosing to ignore them. The Word of God is firm, and there is no excuse to place tradition above it.
I didn't advocate for either egalitarianism or complementarianism. You're certainly right, the relevant verses are easy to find but interpreting in their proper context and how that applies to day is sometimes tricky. For an analogous situation, I think Paul's instructions about head coverings in 1 Corinthians 11 is helpful: those verses are easy to find, but what exactly did they mean then and how to apply them today is not as easy.
@@faithinthefolds2034Sorry that my friend is using a bit of harsh language there. My experience growing up in the COC is that you have to believe it was founded by Jesus and has existed for 2000 years - this seems obviously false but many COC's - I guess by democratic vote in being the majority? - will consider you a heretic if you deny it. Given that the Bible doesn't give you a list of what is necessary for salvation and what's not, I wonder who is right on this issue? The one thing Jesus prayed for about His mystical body is that it be unified, but I saw that everytime people tried to refer back to the bible to answer these types of questions, it wouldn't be a cause for unity, but it would tear the Church apart even further. For me, it is indicative of a fundamental problem when the thing you base your religion on tears it apart from within. I ended up deciding that the Catholic Church was the right way, and that in the authority of the magistirum alongside scripture was the only hope for unity. And it actually makes sense to say the Catholic Church has existed for 2000 years.
But Jesus said that he will build his church. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18
I think there is a fairly simply answer to the question... people are falling away from truth... the wide gate and broad way can seem very appealing to some people. Strict adherence to the word is becoming increasingly rare. Pay shouldn't have any bearing on the work... we should not go into the ministry for personal reward... our reward awaits us in eternity.
Bring some guitars and tambourines inside the church and you will find some new followers that will stick around. Sunday has become a show and you can't compete.
The pressures of ministry are insane. Especially in small towns. What are now insane expectations are baked into Scripture. The practice of ministry might have been workable in the 1st Century, but 21st Century secular management styles clash with 1st Century understandings of spiritual leadership. The pastor is supposed to do it all. It’s impossible. Beating up the pastor is blood sport in many congregations. Not just Churches of Christ. Ministry doesn’t work anymore, especially with the politics of rage and selfishness that have consumed our public discourse. I no longer go to church. I do watch it’s demise with sorrow. Regardless of Jesus’ original intention, today’s church no longer has anything beneficial to say to the culture. People outside of the church are watching, shrugging their shoulders when they see congregations that look like scolding, negative, judgmental people who don’t even get along with each other, and then they head over to Sunday morning goat yoga. Speaking of which, it’s Sunday morning. Gotta get to goat yoga.
Sadly, so many people have left church because of church. Could I recommend you watch my interview with A. J. Swoboda? He offers a great perspective on what to do when we question and doubt: th-cam.com/video/oc6haM6-PGI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=VnYrtkIdvTCNoKwW
Ño. Even in the most dystopian of AI driven stories, the AI is more relatable than any purpose bred antipathetic sadist from the Stone-Campbell movement. I mean, you are the religion who place the most value on inflicted cruelty, right?
That's right, NOT the United Church of Christ. I'm talking about those Churches of Christ which remain largely committed to the American Restoration Movement principles which came about during the Second Great Awakening (19th century).
@@faithinthefolds2034Where in the Bible does it say all churches are to be autonomous? With no bishops over multiple churches? - and if you can't prove that from the bible, isn't that a man-made tradition?
I recently went to a church of christ and had several conversations with the pastor and he admitted I knew more than him. Not good. He was not very good at greek or the history behind prostylte mikvah and baptism. It is very dangerous to not only reject the spirit's direction as if he doesn't exist, but also to reject knowledge about the bible. It is shameful for pastors to not be experts in the greek, Hebrew and aramaic. Do not teach God's word if you do not even know it. You'll lead people to hell. The English translation is not the bible.
Hiow does an elder rule a man called by Gid himself, paul told Timothy and Titus to choose elders, meaning that Timothy and Titus must rule over the elders 😢
No Paul sent timothy and titus to set things in order because the church was just getting started and just like sheep need a shepherd the church ⛪️ need shepherds. Acts 20:17-18,28 Acts 14:23 Titus 1:5
One quarter of all Catholic priests in my Archdiocese under the age of fifty are ex protestant ministers. When they get to know God in a deeper way they are drawn to Catholicism .... just in the last 2 years 3 Church of England Bishops have given up such power status and wealth to become Catholic -- 2 have now become Catholic priests.
Hi Betty, thanks for watching. By "sect" it's meant that whatever particular religious group is in question, that group believes it and it alone represents the true expression of that religious faith.
@@bellcoolmountain6650, there are probably as many people in Churches of Christ who believe they're the only ones going to heaven as those who believe are saved from different denominations. I believe God saves people across denominational lines.
Hi Raiyan, thanks for listening and commenting - that really helps pump up the visibility of the channel! You may find some helpful information here about the growth of Christianity: research.lifeway.com/2022/01/31/7-encouraging-trends-of-global-christianity-in-2022/#:~:text=As%20Christianity%20continues%20to%20grow,in%20non%2Dmajority%20Christian%20nations.
@@faithinthefolds2034 So; Mr. TH-cam has brought me to this video... Just to make me to sadly understand that whatever the Christian denomination, including my own Roman Catholic Church, the problems are the same... It only changes the details... And the lack of a big schism in my Church, at least for now... Surely whatever that link states about Christianity growth OUTSIDE the west is true... But one just needs to understand why this difference. Where is the Church declining? On the most developed, richest countries where the average life expectancy is higher, the academic level is higher, and the technology access is larger... Me thinks Christianity was not able to adapt itself to those 3 challenges. Now it is perhaps too late. Come the day the African societies evolve a little bit more and they'll to have the same problems there. My teen family members are stating they don't want Church anymore... Because they see themselves as capable to have a long healthy life, going to the University and enjoying their world from their smartphones! That will be the trend. Adapt or die is the unique choice for Church. Too late, IMHO... Have a nice day!...
What we need in the church isn’t paid preachers, we need truth to be taught and men to have enough knowledge and faith to preach or teach it! I have attended many congregations both with and without a full time preacher and I am not seeing growth in either! Its very sad here in New Mexico! Very few young people are being brought up in the church. I have also been witnessing men that just don’t want to do the work of the church. We can’t expect young people to do what they don’t see being done. This is my observation and it makes me so very sad.
Gretta, it breaks my heart too to see so many men ignore the work of the church, and you're absolutely right when you say "We can’t expect young people to do what they don’t see being done."
It's hard to say "they" and mean one group because Churches of Christ have a congregationalist structure, which means each church can teach something different.
Former youth minister here. I went to a CofC university, received my Youth and Family Ministry Degree, and went into ministry for roughly 5 years (2 full-time). Coming from a Catholic background I was very inexperienced, only being a member of the church for 4 years before beginning ministry part-time. Here are the challenges I faced: 1. I was single; no church would hire me full-time unless I was married (this was a pre-requisite), but I found a church that took a chance on me, and I was grateful for it. 2. Lack of compensation is real: first full-time job making $30k/year. The government then takes $7k of that once tax season rolls around and you have to be disciplined enough to save, which is already hard enough on that salary. 3. Unrealistic expectations: I understand this isn't everyone's experience, but I was expected to grow the youth group from the outside instead of nurture the relationships that I had already established inside the church.
These are just a few examples of why I chose to leave ministry and go into secular work only after 6 years of graduating college. The church I attend now has at least 7 former preachers/youth ministers and all of their stories are similar to why they left.
As for a lack of young people going into ministry to be "trained". I'm not so sure it's needed as much anymore because of the plethora of free resources we have at our fingertips. Not to mention, say ministry doesn't work for them, they feel they have no safety net as a backup.
I love the church, but we have a reputation of being extremely dogmatic in our teachings and lack the love and compassion for people who think differently that us.
Being a "paid" minister is hard work, because there are a of external forces that influence our decisions. Many are ran out because of hard headed elders, and many leave because our members are not very supportive of someone who doesn't have extreme conservative values.
The culture is changing, and I do feel we need to change with it, or there will be extreme ramifications.
Thanks for sharing. Your experiences are so similar to many others I've heard from.
Yeah, the dogmatic teaching is really off putting as a Church of Christ member. Reading that line from Muscle and a Shovel where Randall says he thinks everyone not in the Church of Christ is going to Hell was eye opening. We say we don't say it, but we do say it. And I've read several Church of Christ websites this last week that say "We are Christians alone and the only Christians" in response to folk who say "We are Christians alone, but not the only Christians." I mean, let's just pretend for half a minute that group is right. There's more sensible ways to say "We are right, you are wrong, you are damned, hahaha." That reasoning pushes me away, even as a member.
At any rate, salvation is not in a church. If that were the case, I'd go be a Catholic. Salvation is in Christ alone. And now with WVBS, Apologetics Press, and other teaching offices putting out more and more content on "You can't go to Heaven if you drink" or "You can't go to Heaven if you don't dress up for worship" (A slight embellishment, but you get the idea), what exactly is salvation becoming anyway? It's like we threw out grace, threw out Jesus, and replaced both with a list of works you do and you just "might" make it. That's the very thing Jesus and the apostles were attacking. For being "Bible only Christians" we sure have a lot of publications like House to House and Truth Magazine to make sure we follow the correct interpretation. Gives me Watchtower vibes.
If the Church of Christ is really serious about autonomy, then it needs to stop bashing congregations that use instruments and stop its unscriptural authority of demanding a person be rebaptized for the "remission of sins" if they previously were baptized for the reason of obeying Christ.
Catholic here brother who left the CoC. Please look into whatthe ancient church teaches. Nowhere in the bible are we told that the bible (written word) is the last authority for faith. In fact the bible tells us in 2 Thess 2:15 that the traditions (oral) are also necessary. Your native Church, the Catholic, with all its problems, can be traced back 2,000 years with witness and evidence at every step. And the apostles passed on authority by the laying on of hands has continued. The church could not have been started in the 19th century by a scottish preacher because She is One, Holy and Universal. She is not autonomous anywhere in scripture or tradition. Seek out the history and pray as I will pray with you. I too was in the coc and the Church, not the bible is the "pillar and ground of faith" 1 Timothy 3:15. God bless you and take a second look at the CHurch.
@@RedRiverMan Any recommendations on good history sources? Currently working my way through Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, plus Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years by Diarmaid MacCulloch. (Wouldn't recommend it because the author's noticeably biased, but I paid for it so I'm invested.) I've got a kindle wishlist of a bunch of early Christian writings. Just finished reading a translation of the Didache. I have to keep it quiet though- living with family, plus many preacher relatives. Mostly sticking with what I can find on Kindle for that reason.
Current noninstitutional member, on the conservative side. I'm trying to learn church history and it's been an... interesting... experience. I was always taught we were what Jesus actually founded and then the churches combined into Catholic/Orthodox, which wasn't supposed to happen. The real church survived and supposedly we've always been around very very quietly. I've heard one preacher slightly imply we came out of the Restoration movement. The rest claim we're the originals. An Orthodox friend about had a stroke at that, then again with our stance on religious holidays and crosses. Pretty funny reaction tbh. I bring it up once in a while to watch his head explode.
I can't get past some of the Catholic beliefs, but I could see myself converting to some flavor of Orthodoxy someday. Who knows. Both of y'all make a lot more sense when we're not strawmanning you.
After ten years with a congregation, I was fired by an "Eldership" after showing them Biblically how to distance themselves from a divisive antagonistic "brother". After the person left, the "leadership" held this wolf in their bosom. On a Sunday before I was to preach, an "elder" put his finger in my chest and said I was no longer the minister because I'd "disparaged the leadership".
Later they told the congregation that I couldn't "control my wife" and had served the Lord's Supper on a Wednesday at a nursing home five years ago.
I was told I was a "poor excuse for a preacher and a Christian." I was then served with an eviction notice violating my contract (they also refused to pay severance dictated by the contract). installed security cameras facing the parsonage, reported on our progress moving and who was helping us. The "elders" also informed the congregation that anyone who disagreed with them was no longer a member.
I performed a Baptism for a candidate using another congregation's baptistery. My wife posted it on FB. Word got back to the "elder" who fired me. His response to a midweek class? "I'm gonna call them and tell them about (MY NAME)."
BTW - The woman who cleans the building did a dance outside our home singing "You ni%%ers" have to go!"
My family and I were completely cut off by our "Christian Family". Also heard another nightmare story where a preacher was fired because he joined a "singing group"
This is from the people who claim to be the "True Church". What a joke!
Denominations treat their ministers better. The world treats workers better.
Why are the churches of Christ losing ministers? Because of ungodly and illegitimate leadership!
Because of grudge-holding, malicious and vindictive people.
If you claim to be the "Lord's Church" act like it!
The COC bashes denominations but we've had a Catholic Dr who visited the congregation give us money and food.
It allowed me to talk to her about Mary's next Annunciation. Think about it - If Catholics love Mary they must love God and Jesus too.
By the way, the wolf/divisive person is now the preacher.
I tuned in for a midweek class online and heard him declare, "In the Old Testament you could work your way to Heaven."
The "eldership" had no response.
What a joke!
I hope all is well with you. My Dad (he is 78) preached all his life. I am 58. I would never put my families livelihood in the hands of a church.
It breaks the heart to hear and read of such things going on in a congregation. In my 56 years as a christian I have come to conclude that problems exist in a congregation to the extent that the members are biblically knowledgeable and sound. When members don't study and know the word, they're not going to practice what they don't know. As a result, elders are selected by members who are not knowledgeable of the Word and either do not know or do not care, or both, to ask the hard questions and discern a man's qualifications. When, not if, the wrong men become 'elders', all sorts of things go askew and often people don't even recognize it. From what you describe, the Lord may have removed His lampstand from their midst long before they mistreated you. What many 'members' do not realize is that they've placed their trust in an institution they've formed to their likes and their comfort level, and fail to realize the implications of (ESV) Matt 13:41 - The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers... THEY WILL GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM! Many members of the church, including elders and deacons who are practicing lawlessness, will be harvested out of His kingdom and cast into the furnace. My advice to preachers is to screen a congregation well, screen the elders, and be as sure as you can that it is a congregation that is striving to be the body of Christ. I hope you heal spiritually and mentally from such mistreatment, and differentiate between congregations that can be characterized like one of those errant ones in Revelation and those who are genuine.
@@garywells3763 Thank you Brother for your encouragement, knowledge, words and service in Him!
@@drebaselius9160 They do bash other denominations, Baptists especially. 🥺
As a former CofC preachers kid, I hear ya. I don’t think it ever got this bad for my Dad, but many many times church members hurt us. No surprise I have NEVER set foot back in that place. Even when I was told I was going to hell….still not coming back. I’ll take my chances at another church.
I left CoC because of how much they claimed that they were the one and only true church and that everyone else were on their way to hell, lost. the church of christ is all those who have repented and have believed on our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not a building!
Are you sure they were referring to the building or were they referring to all those who are "in christ".
@trevorbostwick8894 they were referring to those who attend the church of Christ congregations. Pastor says it is the only true church, since Acts time. 🙁
Sir, you are most fortunate to have a job and a church that loves you. You aren’t homeless, hungry, sick, or being called upon yet to risk your life for the Lord.And you aren’t afflicted with chronic mental and physical pain like so many people. You sound so fortunate. Praise the Lord!
God has blessed me and I acknowledge that in the video. But I should also point out when churches mistreat their ministers as Jesus pointed out when religious leaders mistreated the people.
Wow.
Please.
Kevin, thank you for putting this together! This minister shortage has only recently come to my attention and has become a bit of a passionate concern of mine. 28:27 I love this idea. At the same time, I believe there is a great need for foundational biblical training in our adult member ranks. I believe many current adults have never been allowed or expected to step into a leadership gap for their congregation when a need surfaced, which has resulted in a lack on preparation, comfort, and willingness to lead. How wonderful would it be to see our elders and ministers engaging their congregations in practical, biblical leadership development. As a "layperson" in the church, this shortage has convicted me to re-engage intensive study in preparation for teaching; not due to any expectation of an imminent need, but rather to be a better and more prepared member of the body. I would love to see the Spirit ignite a passion for the future of the Chuch in the adults who attend.
Josh, great thoughts - and thank you for watching! I am very interested in how we can prepare anyone and everyone in the congregation to put their gifts to use. Since my own training is in biblical studies and teaching, I feel much more prepared to help others on that front-which is why my friend Luke Dockery and I have started a publishing house called Regnum Media to give "laypersons" good teaching material so they can feel more confident in teaching. (Here's the link to Luke's book if you're interested: www.amazon.com/Search-Significance-Study-Ecclesiastes-Biblia/dp/B0BW2BSXX4/ref=sr_1_1?crid=9EGTWQJAJI7Y&keywords=ecclesiastes+regnum+media&qid=1683916562&sprefix=ecclesiasted+regnum+media%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1) I genuinely appreciate your efforts to work on your own skills for serving, and I'd love to hear more about what you're going to do. Feel free to find me on social media or email my faithinthefolds@gmail.com.
He’s a spiritual puff! We’ve got Trans college students yelling and screaming on campus demanding their rights to come for your children and an anti-Christ President sympathizing with a mass murderer who killed Christian children because they deserved it for violating the pervert’s rights by disagreeing with him/her or “they”(oldest demon in the world by the name of Legion). We have young people rejoicing everywhere because they are free to kill their babies now since the Dems won the elections. The lawless rule the land now and you are worried about your raise. Don’t you realize that these people are demon possessed and they want us gone? Yet God still expects us to go into all the world to teach the Gospel to them regardless of how much self we have to lay aside to reach them?
I am so sorry to hear that. Although my former Free Will Baptist pastor who was a senior citizen earned a salary, had a free parsonage, & free car, the tiny congregation that he led could barely pay him. Consequently, he had to get a second job, which he did not want to as a school bus driver.
This has been a blessing. Thank you brother!
Thanks so much for watching!
Truth...what I have seen is the elders not being spiritually qualified and telling the pastor what he would and would not preach .. thus tying his hands preventing him from obeying God's call on his life
That happens sometimes. I'm hoping to have an episode in the future on elder qualifications and the scriptural relationship between elders and preachers.
I’ve seen these elders, sit and judgment of others like there’s somebody whether it’s a single mother just pisses you off not good human beings not good fathers not good husbands and they’re gonna try to sit in judgment of others ? No you’re not.
This is a very interesting topic. In the 80s there was every bit of 200 members attending every Sunday now there’s only about 25-30. I’ve seen marriages,divorces,babies out of wedlock, you name it. People are straying away from the COC and going to churches where they can get an emotional experience. The COC preaches sound doctrine and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it can be a bit boring to some people at times. I know that you shouldn’t go to church to get a “feeling” but people that have been through some serious issues want to go to church and feel God’s presence . The reason why the church of Christ isn’t growing is because they’re still debating over issues that don’t even matter. Issues like.. is it ok to have a choir, can a woman lead a song, can you clap in church, just little issues like that doesn’t even matter.
Sadly, there are a lot of CoCs out there that engage in fruitless debates, and you're right-it isn't helpful. We have to do better at emphasizing the good things of our heritage without feeling the need to condemn everyone who doesn't agree with us on everything.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Those problems listed by "Texasmade" are easily solved: just don't have a choir, don't allow a woman to lead a song in a mixed setting, don't clap after a baptism as if you are at an Alabama or Georgia game. Those are all the safe positions, and there is no need in trying to debate them. You are 100% correct on unqualified elders, and you described them to a "T".
The glue that ought to keep believers in Christ together despite debatable doctrines existing within the church is the love of God (1 Cor. 13). But if the church interprets the perfect to come in the chapter as anything other than the perfected love of God among believers, how can we expect growth, unity, and support? Didn't Jesus say that the world will know we are His by our love for one another? Didn't He pray for unity among His followers knowing full well we will disagree in doctrines? What is that perfect thing that trumps knowledge, prophesy, and tongues if not for the never-ending love of God flowing through His people?
@@sishrac "That which is perfect (or complete) is come" refers to the complete and perfect final revelation of God to man, which the church did not possess at the time the passage was penned. The church possessed bits and pieces and thus the need for the miraculous - the "in part".
It is true that the early church made mistakes (disagreed) on certain teachings. That means somebody was right - and somebody was wrong. Much of Paul's letters were an inspired effort to correct those in error - not to tell them to just love one another and agree to disagree on truth.
"People are straying away from the COC and going to churches where they can get an emotional experience."
So your solution is to create an environment which is more conducive to ... feelings. They, in some inexplicable way, "feel God's presence", but no two of them agree on exactly how that feeling came about. As for me, I have never in my life found a sound sermon to be boring. There are some speakers that are just naturally not great pulpiteers - and that has always been the case. As far as those few "issues" you cited, well, they aren't even issues. Why would a female leading a song even come up? On each of them, you tell me the safe position (and they all have one - and they are all easy), and you've answered your own question.
What has happened is this: we have raised several generations of young people who were never taught, and therefore simply do not know or respect the Scriptures as well as their grandparents did. Perhaps they wish they did, but just do not want to put in the study. I have personally never met a person who "studied" his way out of the Lord's church. In almost every case, the situation was the opposite.
Hey Kevin. Billy Wilson (from Scotland, currently preaching in Tucson) here. Loved your coverage of this topic. Great job. Furthermore, I appreciated greatly your overall spirit of delivery and balance. Thank you.
Ps. Of course I subscribed. 😂
Thanks so much, Billy! This is a serious topic and I hope I've shed some more light on how we can move forward. Blessings!
@faithinthefolds2034 I also think there's something to said about loyalty. I understand the treatment some preachers have had to deal with, but I'd be stretched to believe we should bail easily upon the family God placed us in. Regardless how badly I'm treated, the CoC are still the boat that pulled up and shared the gospel. That's not a value I'm willing to trade because a few on the boat beat me up. Never say never, but...
Tucson, AZ? Ik a few congregations there, Highland Church of Christ and Southside Tucson Church of Christ.
@lildurk3004 oh, I've moved to Texas now.
@@TheWilsonrfc nice, yeah ik the minister at Southside Tucson. Eugene Johnson, idk if hes still there though. Before him, it was Donald Priddy Sr.
Most today are "corporations" with CHURCH merely in the title! TRUSTEES job is to gaurd the corporation FOR THE STATE! Even Jesus taught when men link money making with His Father's house they show themselves in fact to be a DEN OF THIEVES!
Like all corporations, the corporation must be protected at all costs! They care not who they have to throw under the bus!
Really excellent! I appreciate your handling of the research and how you've woven together the assessments of others while offering insights of your own. My own anecdotal evidence confirms that in our branch of the Churches of Christ the problem is much the same. I'd say that one of the primary reasons that I personally considered pursuing congregational ministry as a vocation, was that I respected the lives of my leaders at a young age. I wanted to imitate their lifestyle, and recognized the real honor that it is to serve the body in this capacity. When they began investing in me, it only magnified and affirmed the Lord's calling in my life. It is my hope that I can invest similarly in the lives of other young disciples so that I can do my part to inspire the next generation of Church leaders.
P.S. 8:37 was my favorite moment of the podcast, I felt that in my soul.
Josh, I'm glad to hear you received such affirmation at a young age--that kind of affirmation is invaluable for raising up the next generation.
Was raised CofC, for 25years. Born again in November 2008, and was lead out in early 2009.
Dogmatism, moralistic therapeutic deism, and dead religion ruled the body I was lead out of. When the traditions of men are elevated above the Gospel and new birth, there is no life, it is a form of godliness that denies the power of God.
@@chestercobblepot7839 sadly, all of the things you mentioned can and do happen. I wish you well.
Wow, what a find. Some really good points raised here. This is certainly the case in the Caribbean right now.
@@trovelemmanuel5627 thanks so much for watching! I’ve got a few minister friends from the Caribbean-but I didn’t know they were dealing with the same stuff. Hopefully this little video can help us all think better about the situation.
@@faithinthefolds2034 thanks bro. I already circulated it to get some feedback, many so far think it's a direct reflection of what's happening here.
1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
To have a Christ church, members must be taught. Unlearned members come and go because they aren't grounded in the word. When grounded in the word they will know they too have a job to do in the kingdom. And not rely on the 'preacher' to do everything. When members are unlearned in the scriptures they mainly go to worship for a feeling. They want to be entertained! God is not in the entertainment business. Once those unlearned member realizes worship services are for God and not them they may stop leaving the church.
Amen, you’ve got it, brother. To be grounded, we recognise how unnatural it is to don the armour of God and think like Jesus. We awaken to God, treating our relationship with Jesus as if He is right by our side, and what I truly appreciate is that He can indeed be there if we desire it. So, in conclusion, let us be spiritually grounded. This is essential, regardless of our merits. Have a wonderful week, brother.
The ministers are having their eyes open to the Grace of GOD and learning how to rightly divide the word of GOD👏👍😀
Never seen a Holy Spirit led Church of Christ congregation, but see them bogged down in legalism. The legalism is of their own making. There is no spiritual power there, just their traditions.
Keith, thanks for listening! I’d say that’s an unfair blanket statement for all Churches of Christ. I agree there are many CoCs bogged down in legalism, but I know there are also many that walk in step with the Spirit.
@@faithinthefolds2034 I never found one in three states.
@@keithwolfe1942, my experience is limited, but I’ve lived in four states and found several in each one. I think that’s one of the dangers of generalizing: too many good people don’t get the benefit of the doubt.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Never, ever, heard a CoC person tell of a rebirth experience nor talk about a personal relationship with Jesus. Amazing that they can and do talk about minor issues and basically petty stuff. One can not get around their water baptism way of salvation, never even touching the Baptism in The Holy Spirit, which is what Jesus taught.
@faithinthefolds2034 I'm eager to hear the biblical response. I was added to the body after hearing believing confessing and being baptized for the remission of my past sins. My husband however has the same misunderstanding of who the baptism of the Holy Spirit fell on & why... I'm wanting a better way to explain.
Our minister is a graduate of world Bible school. He does a great job. He is being paid part-time $1000 a month. He earns additional income by driving for Uber. At the same time he assigns members to preach and so there are two preachers to help him. He preaches twice a month, there is always in a church one who is capable of teaching not necessarily the minister. And teaching is being done alternately. What I’m saying is there is no need for a full-time minister. Every Christian has the Holy Spirit in dwelling in his inner being cool helps him understand the Scriptures more fully if he is diligently studying the Bible. At the same time he can work a secular job. Having a full-time minister is counterproductive, because other men will not strive to learn, and use their gifts in preaching and teaching because of depression of a full-time minister who studied in the ministry.
Hi, thanks for listening. I agree with on the importance of building up others to serve the church, but I don't think that has to mean having a full time minister is counter-productive. A full time minister can really benefit the church because he can have the freedom to study more deeply and help train others to do the work of the church. I don't think our choices have to be 1) either the full time minister does everything (which is counter-productive) or 2) the church trains its people with a part time minister; there's a third option.
Many problems are due to lack of funds. People are having a hard time just surviving. Preachers are paid by Church goers. Another issue so many want to bring the world into Church. Those of us know how God wants His Church to be run. Going by scriptures. Not a perfect Church but trying to do what our Lord wants.
Paul told Titus to, "Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you." (Titus 2:15 -- ESV) It seems that the preacher has a lot of authority, Paul telling Titus he had ALL authority.
I am a member of the C of C and there is no such thing in the NT about calling in a negotiating a salary for a man who
is given the task of being the church CEO while the so-called elders sit on there hands. Get rid of these "preacher/pastor"
"one -man-band" hirelings.
15 years ago, my small town assembly of God and the Church of Christ i belong to were FULL every sunday, (150 or so) community involved, sparked, and prospering. Today, each church has regular congregations of 20, plus or minus. Our Church of Christ hasn't had a full time (regular) pastor for over 2 years. Can't find one. I have no idea how the 7th day Adventist church stays open with thier 8-10 people. Used to be 80. The falling away is here. Society is in a moral tailspin. I volunteered at a special needs school for a couple years, and you can't mention God, salvation, or that boys can't be girls. The only dirty word to them is "sin", anything else is acceptable for table talk. I feel the crush of time. I can't see this lasting. We ARE in the days of Noah. There is nothing but evil in the hearts of men, and women. Man has made what was once a paradise into a dumpster fire. Come quickly, Lord Jesus. Please.
As a former CofCer and a long time evangelical, I see a similar issue in both traditions: if the church is to survive, it must stop fighting fights that no one cares any more about, and fight the fights that matter. There are many such topics, and the key is this: If the emphasis is placed on the old fights, the new ones do not get attended to. A church that does not teach about personal identity as a child of God and the glory of being washed of sin is condemned to suffer gender related issues (because they are deeply related). A church that does not teach about the beauty and deep value of famly life and mutual commitment of marriage will suffer divorces (because they are deeply related). A church that over emphasizes authority and scripture to the exclusion of any open discussion will suffer attrition due to a lack of any freedom of discussion or development of personal conviction regarding God's sovreignty and love for the individual (because one is a waste of time that should be spent on the latter). A church that gets tangled up in the fine points of Christology and the Godhead will inevitably weaken the faith of those who are seeking a Savior and a Lord in their lives rather than a high Christology and a firm understanding of trinitarianism. Fight the fights of faith and set your sights on the development and the salvation of souls, not on the development and growth of a church. One happens to be far more important, and is, ultimately, that upon which you are judged as a minister of the faith.
My early years (59'-72') as a believer were in the Churches of Christ family . I even graduated from one their colleges, San Jose Bible College in CA. After a number of years I came to realize that they where so far from being a "Restoration" movement to reclaim 1st century Christianity that I had to leave and never return. Sadly, they are now controlled by what Jesus said the , "traditions of Men" Sola scriptura is so far from the core of their churches it just tragic and sad. At the Bema Judgment Seat of Christ they will all have to give an account to Jesus face to face.
George, you are right: we will all face judgment. It saddens me too that so many Churches of Christ are controlled by human traditions, but I know many that aren’t.
I admit, I don’t know the San Jose Bible College. Is that affiliated with the traditionally-a cappella Churches of Christ?
Amen, I came out of protestantism bc of these reasons.
Bc the number 1 problem with protestantism is they all claim their being led to all truth by the Holy Spirit, John 16:12-13. But yet all teach a diff gospel, having 1000s of diff denominations. That's the complete opposite of all truth through the Holy Spirit.
Its all bc of Martin Luther sola scriptura, when that was never taught throughout antiquity.
So everyone became their own final authority reading the Bible alone, coming up with diff interpretations.
Once a prot starts being intellectually honest with themselves, they will start being convicted by the Holy Spirit, when they soften their hearts. Then they will realize yes this is a problem that they don't want to ignore it anymore. Which will make them start studying more, & asking questions on who canonized the books of the Bible, where did it come from, when did it happen, what did the early church teach throughout antiquity.
Once u start studying church history u cant go back, but only forward, then they will find themselves out of protestantism.
Lord bless u.. 📿🌹🇻🇦💪🏻🙏🏼💯
@@onlylove556 That kind of mentality will only lead one to papalism or the Roman Catholic Church.
@@brendanjobe6895 I don't know what u are trying to say.
So can u explain what u agree, or disagree with my comment?
@@onlylove556 I don't see what is difficult about it: a method of reasoning that you appear to possess will only lead one to papalism, or the Roman Papal System - a system in which someone else interprets the scriptures for you.
Great video Kevin
I scrolled through comments, I read many by people who have left the church of Christ. I’m just exploring church of Christ during my relentlessly unsuccessful church to find a biblically sound church term. I would love to hear from people as to which denomination they have found such a home.
Ha Ha!! All "churches" have issues. They are made up of PEOPLE!
Mayybe it's because of the low pay accompanied with the high stress. Many husbands want to be able to keep their wives home with their children; many churches of Christ likely don't pay well enough to do this without keeping their family in poverty. Also, when it comes to health insurance, the evangelist and his family - his children were on "state insurace" - so the congregation doesn't even provide enough for this familiy to have good insurance - meanwhile much of the full time working congregation likely has better insurance than the preacher. This, plus, some of the preacher's are literally "held back" by the elders. So a man comes in a church fresh with vision and heart only to find himself in poverty, and continually blocked from being able to help the church grow. It's really sad.
Isn't it interesting though, the Biblical example is for evangelists to set up churches and move on? Elders are supposed to be able to "TEACH" -- so really, isn't it the evangelist who makes a church and moves on and the elders now preach? Looks like something isn't in proper order.
Tenni, what you've described happens all too often. There is a real problem with how many elderships treat their ministers, especially when you and I know many of those same elders would never allow themselves to be mistreated at their own jobs. We do what we can to address these injustices, but we ultimately have to rest on the fact that God will right those wrongs in His time.
The evangelist's role in the New Testament is somewhat clear: the evangelist certainly preaches/proclaims, but I'm not sure if the evangelist always moved on to set up another church or stayed put somewhere-I just don't know for certain because we don't have a ton of evidence in the NT. However, you are certainly right that elders should be able to teach. Paul is very clear about that in 1 Timothy 3:2.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Mhmm - I don't want the elder punished, he is dear; at the same time; the time comes when an elder needs to step down. It might even be better for an elder "not" to act as secretary and "not" to act as handyman - as their role is supposed to be spiritual in nature - yes servants too - but then there is some point at which when one no longer teaches but they're still the secretary or advising and the time has come for them to retire or at least offer to step down. It seems like elders and other roles need a timeline nowadays - like - a 3 year term with revisit and revote - that way it's expected in advance. Otherwise, for the elders who don't offer to step down and the preacher who for some reason allows the improper actions to continue, (even if it's simply an elder who doesn't teach), it is so "not good" for the church to continue this way. It's hard to let an elder know that it's time for him to step down, it may hurt him very much; but that's where God's church needs to be first and they should be an example of humility and it should not be about "the elder" in the first place.
I think "term limits" for elders can be a good thing. You're right, some elders will be better at administrating and others will be better at teaching, but hopefully they will all be honest with themselves to know when it's right to step down. To be fair, that's tough for anybody in a leadership position though!
@gagged_user I've seen it where the congregation is more like 35 people, some retired, some with illnesses, varying ages and varying wages, college age to social security aged, there will be varying incomes and then there are taxes, costs of the church and plumbing and electricity etc., and then if the pastor is living in a high expense area - $60k is not enough for a pastor with three children and a wife. It's really sad when you see a paid pastor using the "state insurance" for their children. With pay so small, they also aren't able to plan for the future financially. But I can see how in a low-tax low-economic area of the country how $60k might work, but not likely in the big cities.
What's with the giggling?
Elect are drawn to faith and
Repentance without any
Minister preaching
Ones own testimony
Salvation came first
Then doctrine!
Thank you for watching!
I agree God draws us to obedience/faithfulness, but I don't think we can disregard the importance of preaching in that process. God in His wisdom has chosen to use people to spread His kingdom, and that includes ministers of all kinds, right? Preaching plays a huge role in the book of Acts, too.
A lot of us in churches from the Roman Catholic worship rite have been asking that same question since the days of saint Francis of Assisi. Since ministers are allowed to marry while seeing ministers now leave too now while witnessing our brothers and sometimes sisters too leaving the ministry too now we know for sure that it has nothing at all to do with the requirement for Roman Catholic priests to remain celibate. I wonder if the reason there is a growing shortage of main church leaders everywhere has to do with influences which caused the Great Schism too. Maybe today those same influences is found working most among those who trust far more in money and science instead of in god and in main church leaders. The same old thing was happening too way back when people were whispering gossip about saint Francis only being crazy or whatever after he had rehabilitated a wolf who had started preferring human flesh to eat. Since I too am not into overthinking about how any priest or minister does his work today too when for while I was working in an at the time that is now called an essential service I was not about to do the same when hearing that one of the ministers in the church I was attending at the time had left the ministry I was not going to be gossiping about that too. I don't know why the list of essential services thanks to experts in the secular world only is growing instead of getting shorter. How was I to know that being a shoe sales person would become on that list too?
Growing up in the CoC, I would conclude that having "pulpit ministers" who are not also elders is an unsustainable model. It definitely gives congregations the idea that ministers are just hired guns they can fire if they don't like how they perform rather than spiritual leaders who they need to submit to by default. I saw it in my youth, and it wrecked my church (that and no clear delineation of what our beliefs were). In fact, the idea of a paid full-time minister not being also an elder is not seen in the NT, while an elder gifted in preaching and teaching being worthy of pay is discussed in 1 Timothy 5. From there, the lack of organization among CoC congregations and the denomination as a whole does not lend itself to having widely recognized or supported seminaries or preaching training so that students have a clear path to a preaching career, nor do congregations have clear sources of preaching candidates to look to when hiring. A CoC preaching career probably involves going to an expensive private CoC college without a clear pipeline to a career that wouldn't pay much thereafter.
….because they have finally smelled the roses and stopped drinking the Kool aid….?
Haha, some might put it that way. But the aggressively sectarian branch of the CoC is hardly our mainstream.
How can I locate Church of Christ in Qatar?
Just a comment on the very opening of your video; as someone who’s grown up COC, traveled to many states and worshiped many places, I’ve never heard a COC preacher called a minister. And I’ve never heard a COC preacher called the leader of the congregation. I e always heard Elders called ministers and leaders because they are the shepherds of the flock. The preacher is just a gospel advocate.
Last comment:
I really appreciate all your thoughts on this issue. And I agree with many of your proposed solutions. I’ll add my own biggest issue and solution. We have to stop treating preachers like elders. Stop asking them to “do it all” and work them to death with no appreciation. Instead, let’s dive into what the Bible says about the role of elders and deacons. Let’s explore how THOSE ministers can shepherd the flock, serve the church and love the body. Let the preacher be the gospel advocate without the added burden of being an elder too!
@@kazmynjohannes5163 That's a really great point. There is definitely some confusion about what elders, deacons, and preachers ought to do. I'm hoping to have a guest on the podcast in the future to talk with me about some of that. Thanks for watching!
And get treated like hired hands.
Interesting point. I think the dynamic of the elders and Evangelist in a local congregation needs to be revisited. Elders aren't the boss of anyone, the church isn't a business. We need to find a way for both to work as a team and one subservient to the other.
Good job, new subscriber!
Thanks so much!
When will figure out the way church is being done is carnal. Brethren please check out building your own house church the way the early church. Then egos, intrigue, greed, false doctrine won't have ample incentive and opportunity to flourish. When will we figure this out? Lord wake us up from our sleep and blindness.
What's that commentary of Acts you have in the background brother?
The big blue ones? Craig Keener's four-volume commentary on Acts published by Baker Academic. It's a beast! (but not the kind from Revelation 😁)
We don't need Paid minister's , We should be using the mutually edified
My brother in law Kerr is a minister and he comes off like such a nice guy and everybody loves him, but I see right through him. My sister Jane and I have been estranged since we were children and we live isolated lives today, and not once in 50 years has Kerr ever tried to do anything about this., for to help us mend fences and patch up. If MY wife hated her brother, then I'd hardly ignore the situation. Then he gets up in his pulpit and talks about people loving each other. Not only this, but about 30 years ago, I went through severe mental depression and I tried to turn to my family and Kerr could not more than pay me cheap lip service and refuse to become involved. Yeah, he's got Jesus in his life but not his own brother in law. He thinks he's better than me. Someday soon I want to hear what God has to say about all of this.
We will all be judged by God one day.
If we have not love for one another we are but a clanging symbol; so sorry your minister/brother in law treated you like he was better than you.
I am not an expert on the doctrines of the church of Christ, but here in the Philippines you have two kinds of Church of Christ both belongings to the same denomination.
One believes in Baptismal regeneration and other does not. One believes in use of instruments and one does not.
I believe the answer is to look at the reality of the situation and divide the two groups into separate denominations. Call one the Brethren Church of Christ and other one call it the Disciples Church of Christ. Let's remember that Paul and Barnabas had to be separated for the sake of the gospel.
Doesn’t the CoC believe that a person will burn in hell for worshiping God with a musical instrument?
Some people in Churches of Christ believe that, but definitely not all of us.
@@faithinthefolds2034 I must be meeting all of the ones who do believe this. So does CoC have different “denominations” or sects depending on what they believe? If so, what are they called?
@@gman1550 Since the CoC is congregationally autonomous, each one determines what they believe about a certain topic. The way of interpreting the Bible that led many to condemn instrumental accompaniment in worship was really popular about fifty+ years ago: since they didn’t see express commands to worship with instruments in the NT, they believed it was prohibited. There are MANY problems with that hermeneutic, and although some CoCs still adhere to that there are many still who simply choose not to use instruments because a cappella singing is a historic practice of the church and is quite beautiful.
Each one determines what to believe.
That's stressful. Shouldn't there be continuity of belief.
@gman1550 Do you believe you will be lost if you willfully worship in a way that God does not authorize? If not please explain.
I maybe wrong but. I did not hear one major problem. Multitude’s of people not wanting to go to church. That would be directly related to preachers. No people in the church no one to want to be a minister. Hosea 4:6.
Can’t make a living as preacher and no health insurance,who can live on $800.00 . I preached for ten years, the Bible is the best medicine for the preacher
Because people are coming to see how contentious and divisive the CoC really is.
It’s really tough to talk about “the” CoC like we are all the same. Are there contentious and divisive Churches of Christ out there? Of course. Are there Spirit-led Churches of Christ out there? Absolutely-I work for one in south Texas.
"Schools of Preaching" (can't use the word "Seminary" because that smacks of the denominations!) and Bible departments in colleges have traditionally done a very poor job of teaching what life is like as a preacher. Expectations and reality are two very different things. It would be like educating teachers without any classroom management classes or student teaching!
Why I learned in many videos is that icoc is a cult, or almost...
The ICOC became that way, at least for a time. I personally know about a dozen ministers in the ICOC and they are keenly aware of their denomination's past and are all trying very hard to steer their churches away from that ugly past.
@@faithinthefolds2034too late for that
It will also hopefully help to set many people free if they read...Christ Rescued the Thief's Testimony from the "Church of Christ" by Lee Anne Ferguson, for it reveals what the CoC has been hiding for centuries concerning these crucial issues.
Elders are Pastors!
They are! Sadly, too many behave more like managers rather than pastors of the flock who provide spiritual care. I'm grateful to work with a wonderful group of spiritually sensitive elders!
@@faithinthefolds2034 ,
Tou can’t get to heaven if you don’t live Christ’s doctrine and if you don’t ware Hls Name like Peter and Paul both did.
I agree 100% on the importance of living Christ's doctrine.
By "pastors" I take you to mean "shepherds." Am I right?
@@faithinthefolds2034 ,
I agree a lot of churches of Christ are falling away.
And when you add mechanical instruments to worship, they cease to be the Lord’s church.
And one try’s to change Jesus to fit them.
It looked like you were speaking against sound doctrine, and the church of Christ that God intended worship to look like.
Maybe they leave because they got saved
I don’t think that’s it. There are plenty of saved people in Churches of Christ.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Sir, being SAVED means knowing that the work the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross was FINISHED and completed. THAT is the only WAY God WILL accept for entrance into heaven
But being saved means being faithful, which involves doing the things Jesus taught us to do, right? I think James 2:14-26 is pretty clear about this.
@@faithinthefolds2034 please read and study Paul's gospel given to him by the Lord Jesus Christ --- he said it was a mystery that was NOT known before. Right now Jews and gentiles can be saved completely by HIS finished work for salvation. After the rapture God will go back to HIS plans and promised to HIS chosen remnant of Israel
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary?
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. What brings all local churches together into one Body under the blood of Christ? The answer is found below.
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? What did Paul say about Genesis 12:3 in Galatians 3:8? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The following verses prove the Holy Spirit is the master teacher for those now in the New Covenant.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Watch the TH-cam videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
to me, having the perspective of one sitting in the pew, the big over arching problem that is the gravest matter for all groups of Christ followers is the culture war. The outer societal culture is now at direct odds with Christianity on ever single item. And its impact on churches is at the root of most problems that are being faced now.
It's not a new phenomena by any means, but have to go back 2000 years to see the analog - or to places in the modern world like North Korea or Iran vis-a-vis the adherence to the gospel of Christ.
To a lot of ears that will sound as hyperbole but it's really not at all. To downplay it is to merely be the ostritch putting its head in the sand.
Culture is definitely turning farther and farther away from even a passing acknowledgement of Christian virtues. Honestly, I'm not sure what is the best way to engage culture at large.
@@faithinthefolds2034 Well, the degeneracy secular values of the Woke Marxist culture of the aggregate West are anti-civilizational. IOW, they can be out reproduced.
E.g., the Amish are doubling their population every 20 years. And even though they allow their teens to make a choice of whether to embrace their culture (their church) or drift into the outer culture, they appear to have relatively high retention.
To the extent that Christians embrace the same narcissism as that of the outer culture, the same fate will befall - as results from their dead-end, self-extinguishing ideologies. The Woke Marxism culture has to engage in radical subversion to try to increase its adherents as left to itself it would wither away. The large urban areas are clearly the worse.
Christians need to recognize these factors and adjust their life choices accordingly. And really it would be helpful to have frank discussions in churches about these matters - but that will never happen as there is too much fear of stepping on the toes of congregant members (that have absorbed some or much of the outer culture ideology).
The Didache was literally quite correct in asserting that the ways of the outer culture lead to death.
The Didache does an excellent job of plainly laying out the "way of life" and the "way of death." It does seem like many are embracing the way of death and hoping for some other outcome, but they are sorely mistaken.
The churches of Christ have been in decline for years now and continue to go that direction. The churches of Christ members were also know for knowing their Bibles which is not true any more. Their children are not remaining in the church and leaving by greater percentages. Churches rely too much on a preacher to tell them what is in their Bible and are unable to guard against divisive hobbies. Most churches grow as a result of sheep moving to another group and not because a church is growing by reaching the lost.
In a nut shell... they,'ve lost that life saving message of the gospel of Christ (1Cor.15:1-5 & the requirement for that salvation....Jn 6 : 28,29 & lots of other denominations are dying or already dead for the same reasons....nuff said
Not all CoCs. Each congregation is different, just like each Christian
Elders are established in the New Testament. Our modern concept of “located ministers” is not. I think it is permitted but there are always problems when man substitutes his way for the Bible way. (Is it a desire to be like those around them?). Most preachers preach in small congregations in small towns and either work a full time job outside the church or have retirement income. You have a lot of opinions about what should take place. Let the elders make those decisions.
One thing I'd like to talk about in the future is the relationship of elders and ministers. You're right, the way we often do it in our churches is not exactly what we see in the Bible.
The “located ministers” we mostly see in the churches today are not the same as apostles or evangelists we read about in the New Testament. I think many preachers over estimate their own importance and position in the church. There is no such thing as evangelistic oversight.
The “located ministers” we mostly see in the churches today are not the same as apostles or evangelists we read about in the New Testament. I think many preachers over estimate their own importance and position in the church. There is no such thing as evangelistic oversight.
The “located ministers” we mostly see in the churches today are not the same as apostles or evangelists we read about in the New Testament. I think many preachers over estimate their own importance and position in the church. There is no such thing as evangelistic oversight.
The “located ministers” we mostly see in the churches today are not the same as apostles or evangelists we read about in the New Testament. I think many preachers over estimate their own importance and position in the church. There is no such thing as evangelistic oversight.
Wow. Common sense. It's about time.
Because of 2 of the reasons mentioned, Im a self supporting preacher (not evangelist).
@@lilfire1877 Honestly, that is sometimes the best way to go.
Jesus gives Elders as gifts to the church, to protect and guide His people. He is not giving them to this denomination. Maybe because He isn't there.
This is the first time I have viewed a video by "Faith in the Folds!" I am a long time member of the church. I have certainly attended a significant number of c's oC in my time since 95. My roots are in the "old school" brotherhood and it is there that I experienced the most natural and organic of Christianity. Early on, most of which I came across in the brotherhood were those men that displayed an intrinsic interest in Christ, the God head, the Bible and the doctrine of Love in how it serves as the very fabric of the faith, and by which all the other doctrine of Christ is upheld. This Spiritual content of the heart, as when it is ever present in the hearts of the members of the body has always shown to be the platform of Spiritual atmosphere that served as the least instigater of the problematics that have formed within congregations of the coC over the years. Interest in the faith came from (and must always come from) a strong and internally driven interest for the love of God and the existence of an all encompassing truth that is attached to the creation of the greatest gift ever afforded mankind in the salvation of the souls of men, and that is God's love for His creation in man. This love from God towards uswards is the incredibly great and sublime lengths He went through in order to bring about a path of reconciliation with Him and then the greatness that that reconciliation brings to the faithful in both this earthly life and the one to come in eternity! In the old school versions of the faith, I witnessed a vast pool of deep abiding love for the Spirit which is the Life of a true Christian! This intrinsically brought with it a strong vein of Biblical knowledge that was generated by the high quality teaching, that included great discernment and conveyance of God's love as its platform, by the brotherhood within the individual churches of Christ and the desire of the members to learn and absorb it and make it into a transformative experience for each member and that grew their desire to support the cause of Christ, which can only be bore as He bore His own cross. Very every very much to the detriment of the organic nature of the faith, the manner that the seeds of Biblical truth are planted into the hearts of it members and further then nurtured with the nourishment of individual and congregational study and prayer, fruitful fellowship with church members, genuinely Spiritual acts of the worship service that actually generate the Spiritual sacrifices that are inherent to true worshippers, and then just all the things God provides for His children to grow as faithful members of the body, are devoid and as such have given way to a very sterile and intellectualized version of the faith, which I interpret as not being the faith at all. This sad, self-destructive condition in all its civility, its intellect, its academic fashion has quickly degraded the authenticity of the Spirit in some, and actually many congregations just turning them out to be just another empty bag of Spiritually dried out bones! From my first experience with this "Faith in the Folds" I see a great example of exactly this same degree of carnality in attempting to address the issue of the diminishing supply of preachers! The whole perspective is way off base and is no where near the real problem. Oh well, yeah, it does a great job of intellectually dissecting the issue in the same carnal manner one might address an issue in a worldly organization, but it's a far cry from an understanding of the organically Spiritual nature of the body of Christ! But, it is a superlative example of why the problem that is the topic of the video, and nonetheless, the majority of all the other problems as well: total Spiritual depravity! Carnality is a faith killer and the overintellectualizing of the Spirit is undercutting the heart strings that are the very connections that human beings form within themselves that connect them at the deepest spiritual level gut wrenching level that really means something, and creates the mesh between the human spirit and the Spiritual that is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit! I fully understand that formal education can and should have a positive role in the church, and at one point in its history I believe it did, but clearly those days have long since passed and as such education has generated carnality in the minds of the educated, as well as the leadership, and injected this carnality into what is inherently the sublimely altruistic nature of what "the faith" is actually composed and has created a corrupted counterfeit version devoid of the system of faith Christ founded. This is the the same FAITH by which we are supposed to be tending to and contending for, but instead we are breaking it down and equating it to a worldly organization of intellectualized existence tainted with the common and typical errors and imperfections that permeate man-made ideations! Then when you couple the intense beat down of carnality that comes overtly from the outside world from many different fronts on the church, and then the loss of the old school ways which clearly were much more in line with the natural order of the faith (which is the way, the truth and the life of Christ), you have what we have today in the churches of Christ, an inocous, inert, ineffective, sterile facsimile of what once was the one true church that one reads about in the Bible. You sir, YOU need to dumb down YOURSELF, stick a pin in that grotesque and extreme display of pride I witnessed in this video, and pull an Obi Wan Kenobi and lose yourself in the deep desert of Dantoinne until you rediscover what it really takes to be a Christian in this modern world, and what it really means in any and all worlds, because the Spiritual body of Christ is not of this world and its issues are Spiritual in nature and can only be addressed and corrected by applying the Spiritual salve of the Spirit thru scripture, not the overintellectualized carnality of your super-duper smartness! Oh and be sure you take your Bible with you, you surely need it! 😢
First of all, thank you so much for watching the video and commenting. Every time someone watches and comments, it helps boost my channel's visbility, so I really appreciate your help.
Next, I respectfully decline to stick a pin anywhere. You've accused me of pride, which we both agree is a terrible sin. So I don't fall into that trap again, will you comment at what specific times in the video I display pride? Thanks!
I found out the churches of Christ are really brazen and belligerent about things they are absolutely sure of, but when it comes to the Book of Revelation and their Amillennial beliefs, which are a direct heritage from their Presbyterian background, which inherited it from the Roman Catholic Church, makes the churches of Christ extremely cautious and very unwilling to let their eschatology and their understanding and interpretation of the Book of Revelation follow anything resembling the CENI rubric. They excommunicated me out of their church in 1983 and it was like a ton of bricks was taken off my shoulders and I spread my wings and flew away from them. Every now and then I will visit a church of Christ, but their appeal to me is completely gone and shall never return as long as I live.
First of all, let me say thank you for watching!
I've been in Churches of Christ my entire life and I'm sad to say I know far too many people who have been burned and won't come back. I think you have accurately captured what the problem is with many Churches of Christ, they are certain about things to the point that they are unwilling to give any grace to those who are just unsure about something in Scripture, much less to those who disagree. But because I've been in this church fellowship since birth, I am grateful to know there are many Churches of Christ out there (like the one I currently work for) that are gracious and far from being brazen or belligerent. I actually taught on Revelation at our church a couple of years ago and a man came up to after the first few classes to tell me he had avoided Revelation for years because he had seen people nearly come to blows over it, but he was so glad to hear how we were teaching it graciously at church. Wherever we land, I pray we remain faithful.
@@faithinthefolds2034 OK, l could not say all churches are equally intolerant. I visited Nashville after my disfellowship and truly enjoyed myself. I visited Crieve Hall and sat under the teaching of Tom Holland. I really think the churches need to use CENI to sift through issues of eschatology and get clear of Amillennialism.
I went to a church of Christ last night and again enjoyed the worship. It was like the good old days. I'll be going Wednesday night, too.
@@markmountjoy3636 Good singing is such a blessing … it’s one of my favorite things about Sundays.
Many unqualified elders bow to member's pressure to allow unscriptural pleasantries be allowed in worship. Preachers are faced with supporting heresies or else. Then they resign and move on to more solid congregations.
Here am I
Because members Don't evangelize.
Sadly, that is often the case.
Id rather attend a church where Holy Spirit is welcome, where Christ is healing and speaking through his people prophetically.
Me too, and sadly, there are few Churches of Christ that do well at those things. But, in God's patience and grace He works with us wherever we are to help us grow in Him.
@@faithinthefolds2034 if I may, I’ll give a quick insight and then a question.
From atheist to believer about 3.5 years ago, and slowly and painfully growing. Visited my grandmothers coC and was given a laundry list of things to do/not do and minor lectures on tenses of Greek and Hebrew after I asked for a Bible study. Trying to “get myself together” in a way became literally impossible. I’ve tried to do the things they’ve told me to do and I’ve failed to the point of feeling suicidal and unworthy of even going to any church or sharing my story because I now doubt that I’m saved. One thing that stood out apart from those things is they told me that spiritual gifts are done. My mother is Pentecostal, but I was new, so I accepted that tongues were gone away with because “the perfect” had come. Problem is, I went to my mother’s church and something told me to talk to God,,, so I did. It started in English and ended with me speaking in tongues. I still doubt sometimes it really happened because of this person who gave my Bible study, but I mean… it happened to me.
So my question is, if the coC IS the only true church, and they deny that the spirit can do this, yet it 100% happened to me… where am I supposed to go with the rest of their teachings? I’m truly asking because I want Jesus more than life itself. Literally. I just feel fear because of the coC is correct then my experience is…. Idk. It is false? Like something that happened to me didn’t happen, or am I to simply think every OTHER thing they teach is true and they just missed this one thing.
I hope any of that makes sense. Thank you for your time and God bless.
False doctrine like baptismal regeneration and cessationism
I do believe cessationism is wrongheaded, but I'm not sure how baptismal regeneration is false doctrine.
@@faithinthefolds2034 because they believe water baptism is salvific. It’s similar to Catholics believing transubstantiation (communion being the actual body). Or the Pharisees who believed circumcision is salvific. All those things are symbolic to what the creator does in us. 1 Peter 3:21 “…water now symbolizes….”. Paul denounces this heavily because they are works based. Romans 4:4-5. Of course you have to harmonize this with James 2 but if John baptizes you with water but he knows someone who is coming who will baptize me with the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16)ain’t no way I can put water baptism in my sotierology
I don't think 1 Peter 3:21 says "water now symbolizes." Paul is pretty clear about how baptism is how we participate in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. As Christians, we ought to speak as highly about baptism as the New Testament does.
@@faithinthefolds2034 youre right it say and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves... My point is it's not about water baptism but about BAPTTISM
@@lotusjumpingspider8761 but baptism with the Holy Spirit is connected with water baptism in Acts 2:38. In Acts the Samaritans are baptized but don’t receive the Spirit until Peter and John go up to Samaria. In Acts 10 Cornelius receives the Spirit and Peter immediately says “What prevents them from being baptized?” If we take the Bible seriously, as you and I both do, then we can’t neglect the importance of water baptism, right?
I find it frustrating that prosperity televangelist have millions if dollars while preachers and speakers in Churches of Christ live sparingly.
Guess our societal focus on success measured but how big your home is, how nice a car you drive and other trappings of the world.
Scripture tells us to be content with your wages.
God may have had enough of this blessed nation turning away from Him, and has taken His word elsewhere.
Preachers need to learn the absolute truth and quit adding and taking away from the scriptures and my experience listening to preachers over the years and I'm including the Church of Christ preachers because I am a member of the Church of Christ which is not of this world because Jesus is the head of the church but let me tell you I have heard things from preachers that are not 100% accurate now I don't know if they just were ignorant to it cuz I know they've been talking to college and different things but preachers need to take what they're learning from the Bible and if the Bible don't say it then they need to quit saying that it's a fact and also you know people need to treat preaching more than just a job you know people should be willing to preach for free because that is what serving God is about teaching people and preaching and you know and all that we got to be trying to win people to the truth before it's too late for them we never know when the world is going to end only God the Father Knows and we don't know when we're going to die so we always need to be right with God and so we need to try our best to reach other people to make sure that they can be right with God and also by the way the elders are supposed to be qualified by what the Bible specifies them to be like just because you're a good person and a Christian does not equal them to be elders and the elders is over the preacher and the deacons and the men of the church is the over the preachers as well the preachers are only supposed to be there teaching the truth and trying to help people learn about God
Seminaries are so much better that taking carpenters, fishermen, and tax collectors.
Hey James, thanks for listening. I'm not sure I get what you mean. Sorry!
@@faithinthefolds2034 Jesus was a carpenter, John and Peter were fishermen, and Matthew was a tax collector. Pax
@@jamessheffield4173, it’s beautiful what God can do with anyone. But let’s not forget Paul was a highly educated Pharisee and God used him too.
Thanks for tuning in!
@@faithinthefolds2034 Good point. Don't forget the early Methodist Movement. Blessings.
I am sorry, my brother, but the egalitarian position is unbiblical. The relevant verses are easy to find. Everyone who is honest knows them but are choosing to ignore them. The Word of God is firm, and there is no excuse to place tradition above it.
I didn't advocate for either egalitarianism or complementarianism. You're certainly right, the relevant verses are easy to find but interpreting in their proper context and how that applies to day is sometimes tricky. For an analogous situation, I think Paul's instructions about head coverings in 1 Corinthians 11 is helpful: those verses are easy to find, but what exactly did they mean then and how to apply them today is not as easy.
They're leaving bc ppl have the internet now and are informed on the history of their man made cult.
Thanks for watching! What did I say in the video to make you think about cults?
@@faithinthefolds2034Sorry that my friend is using a bit of harsh language there.
My experience growing up in the COC is that you have to believe it was founded by Jesus and has existed for 2000 years - this seems obviously false but many COC's - I guess by democratic vote in being the majority? - will consider you a heretic if you deny it. Given that the Bible doesn't give you a list of what is necessary for salvation and what's not, I wonder who is right on this issue?
The one thing Jesus prayed for about His mystical body is that it be unified, but I saw that everytime people tried to refer back to the bible to answer these types of questions, it wouldn't be a cause for unity, but it would tear the Church apart even further. For me, it is indicative of a fundamental problem when the thing you base your religion on tears it apart from within. I ended up deciding that the Catholic Church was the right way, and that in the authority of the magistirum alongside scripture was the only hope for unity. And it actually makes sense to say the Catholic Church has existed for 2000 years.
Losing preachers because people who can do anything else do it, seeing their way through the coc bs.
There is only ONE Church that comes to us from the Apostles - and it's NOT the "church of Christ", that was established in 1832.
But Jesus said that he will build his church.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18
I think there is a fairly simply answer to the question... people are falling away from truth... the wide gate and broad way can seem very appealing to some people. Strict adherence to the word is becoming increasingly rare. Pay shouldn't have any bearing on the work... we should not go into the ministry for personal reward... our reward awaits us in eternity.
Bring some guitars and tambourines inside the church and you will find some new followers that will stick around.
Sunday has become a show and you can't compete.
Don´t forget GarageBand. YOu make that music right on your iPad.
The pressures of ministry are insane. Especially in small towns. What are now insane expectations are baked into Scripture. The practice of ministry might have been workable in the 1st Century, but 21st Century secular management styles clash with 1st Century understandings of spiritual leadership. The pastor is supposed to do it all. It’s impossible. Beating up the pastor is blood sport in many congregations. Not just Churches of Christ. Ministry doesn’t work anymore, especially with the politics of rage and selfishness that have consumed our public discourse. I no longer go to church. I do watch it’s demise with sorrow. Regardless of Jesus’ original intention, today’s church no longer has anything beneficial to say to the culture. People outside of the church are watching, shrugging their shoulders when they see congregations that look like scolding, negative, judgmental people who don’t even get along with each other, and then they head over to Sunday morning goat yoga. Speaking of which, it’s Sunday morning. Gotta get to goat yoga.
Sadly, so many people have left church because of church. Could I recommend you watch my interview with A. J. Swoboda? He offers a great perspective on what to do when we question and doubt: th-cam.com/video/oc6haM6-PGI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=VnYrtkIdvTCNoKwW
Imagine if this robot was your dad or spouse.
@@AlanCanon2222 are you calling me a robot, lol?
Ño. Even in the most dystopian of AI driven stories, the AI is more relatable than any purpose bred antipathetic sadist from the Stone-Campbell movement. I mean, you are the religion who place the most value on inflicted cruelty, right?
@@AlanCanon2222 I think you’ve got us confused with something else.
@@AlanCanon2222 but I genuinely appreciate you watching the video and commenting-it helps boost the channel’s visibility!
@@faithinthefolds2034 of course! Having more examples available is what drives human progress.
I assume we're not talking about the UNITED Church of Christ here? It's a far different animal.
That's right, NOT the United Church of Christ. I'm talking about those Churches of Christ which remain largely committed to the American Restoration Movement principles which came about during the Second Great Awakening (19th century).
Churches of Christ!!! I thought Christ founded one Church?
Haha, well, the congregations of Christ!
@@faithinthefolds2034Where in the Bible does it say all churches are to be autonomous? With no bishops over multiple churches? - and if you can't prove that from the bible, isn't that a man-made tradition?
get started, eh..
Bibles are available Most can read
The Holy Spirit will guide teach
And comfort the elect!
Actually, a lot of America cannot read at their age level!
I recently went to a church of christ and had several conversations with the pastor and he admitted I knew more than him. Not good. He was not very good at greek or the history behind prostylte mikvah and baptism. It is very dangerous to not only reject the spirit's direction as if he doesn't exist, but also to reject knowledge about the bible. It is shameful for pastors to not be experts in the greek, Hebrew and aramaic. Do not teach God's word if you do not even know it. You'll lead people to hell. The English translation is not the bible.
Hiow does an elder rule a man called by Gid himself, paul told Timothy and Titus to choose elders, meaning that Timothy and Titus must rule over the elders 😢
No Paul sent timothy and titus to set things in order because the church was just getting started and just like sheep need a shepherd the church ⛪️ need shepherds. Acts 20:17-18,28 Acts 14:23 Titus 1:5
One quarter of all Catholic priests in my Archdiocese under the age of fifty are ex protestant ministers. When they get to know God in a deeper way they are drawn to Catholicism .... just in the last 2 years 3 Church of England Bishops have given up such power status and wealth to become Catholic -- 2 have now become Catholic priests.
Wow, that's interesting. I wonder why so many Protestants have become Catholic.
It's about serving God, saving souls, not salary. If you can't survive the oay, then try another. Not all CoCs are the same people.
Start your own church and teach, not preach.
Church of Christ is not supposed to be a sect, much less a denomination. Or are you talking about the Mormons or Episcopal?
Hi Betty, thanks for watching. By "sect" it's meant that whatever particular religious group is in question, that group believes it and it alone represents the true expression of that religious faith.
I'm pretty sure it's with the Mormons
@@faithinthefolds2034 Is your "Church of Christ" sect the only sect going to heaven? Also what about denominations? Can any of them be saved?
@@bellcoolmountain6650, there are probably as many people in Churches of Christ who believe they're the only ones going to heaven as those who believe are saved from different denominations. I believe God saves people across denominational lines.
@@faithinthefolds2034 ok, which denominations will be saved?
Christianity is dying, No doubt.
Churches are going down, And Mosques are bulding ❤❤🎉
Hi Raiyan, thanks for listening and commenting - that really helps pump up the visibility of the channel!
You may find some helpful information here about the growth of Christianity: research.lifeway.com/2022/01/31/7-encouraging-trends-of-global-christianity-in-2022/#:~:text=As%20Christianity%20continues%20to%20grow,in%20non%2Dmajority%20Christian%20nations.
@@faithinthefolds2034 So; Mr. TH-cam has brought me to this video... Just to make me to sadly understand that whatever the Christian denomination, including my own Roman Catholic Church, the problems are the same... It only changes the details... And the lack of a big schism in my Church, at least for now...
Surely whatever that link states about Christianity growth OUTSIDE the west is true... But one just needs to understand why this difference. Where is the Church declining? On the most developed, richest countries where the average life expectancy is higher, the academic level is higher, and the technology access is larger... Me thinks Christianity was not able to adapt itself to those 3 challenges. Now it is perhaps too late. Come the day the African societies evolve a little bit more and they'll to have the same problems there. My teen family members are stating they don't want Church anymore... Because they see themselves as capable to have a long healthy life, going to the University and enjoying their world from their smartphones! That will be the trend. Adapt or die is the unique choice for Church. Too late, IMHO...
Have a nice day!...
What we need in the church isn’t paid preachers, we need truth to be taught and men to have enough knowledge and faith to preach or teach it! I have attended many congregations both with and without a full time preacher and I am not seeing growth in either! Its very sad here in New Mexico! Very few young people are being brought up in the church. I have also been witnessing men that just don’t want to do the work of the church. We can’t expect young people to do what they don’t see being done. This is my observation and it makes me so very sad.
Gretta, it breaks my heart too to see so many men ignore the work of the church, and you're absolutely right when you say "We can’t expect young people to do what they don’t see being done."
@@nunagorasI feel your pain
Because they are teaching heresy
It's hard to say "they" and mean one group because Churches of Christ have a congregationalist structure, which means each church can teach something different.
HOw so?