Three Great Ways to Create Tag Droppers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2022
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Find the companion Troutbitten article here . . .
troutbitten.com/2022/09/20/vi...
With three good solutions for creating tag droppers, there’s a method for every moment. And by getting each of these under your fingers, by practicing them and being comfortable, you’ll find uses for all of these methods as you work up a river.
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Dom - กีฬา
![บุษบา - มอส รัศมี [COVER VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_n0yENSl8d8/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey now!! Great tips and amazing video quality. The TROUTBITTEN crew has the best tactical approach. Keep ‘em coming!
Cheers. Thanks
Thanks for the detail. Definitely a knot fan. Still have all the books from the days before video. Appreciate the work that went into making the short film to go with the article
Thank you.
Ditto on what everyone else says here. Much appreciated! Give me something to practice in these winter months.
Thanks very much. I appreciate it.
Awesome thanks. I'm going to check out that orvis knot. Have been using surgeons knots but like the idea of an upward tag. The layover method is also new to me.
Cool
Great tips Dom! I like the layover!
Cheers. Me too.
Like your vids. Been flyfishing60+ years. Been a 3 fly guy since day one taught by my dad and his best friend. Did tags or droppers for years. Still do once in awhile. Now instead I simply tie tippet to the eye of each fly
Not the bend of eac hook. This allows each fly to move and not trail the other. Works like a dropper and I have had doublesmany times. Just musings of an old guy.
Hi Glenn. Thanks.
I agree with you, and I prefer to tie out of the eye if I'm coming off the hook. I do that sometimes. And to your point, the fly to move more than coming off the bend. By that same logic, tags are a better option, in my opinion -- even more motion.
Article here
troutbitten.com/2016/03/18/tags-and-trailers/
@@Troutbitten I only switched from tags maybe 10 or so years ago. As we age, fingers dont work as well as they used to and neother do eyes🤣
@@glenndotter5065 Right on. Whatever it takes!
Big help, thanks
Cheers
Great tutorial
Thanks
Great video! Will try the Orvis tippet knot next time I'm fishing as the nymph on the downwards facing tag from double surgeons knot keeps spinning around the main tippet. Some people have suggested to tie a half hitch knot around it to make it hang closer 90 degrees but I feel like that would compromise the knot strength too much.
Yeah, there's no good reason for that half hitch. The reason we like the Orvis Tippet Knot in the first place is that you can use the UP tag. Do it!
Very nice
Cheers.
Another great video, I appreciate you taking the time to educate us. My problem is trying to get a tag to come out close to 90 degrees with tippet. I can do it with heavier material like most of the videos show but with tippet it seems to droop, whether it's a Orvis tippet knot or a triple surgeons. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again and keep the videos coming.
I would not worry about that. Tie the Orvis Tippet Knot and use the up tag. That's the best you can do. What the line drifts in the water, everything opens up anyway.
Cheers.
throw a half hitch on it afte you tie....will cause it to stick out a bit
@@Troutbitten
I have been using the surgeon's and the bloodknot. The bloodknot because it comes straight out. Will try the orvis one, feel like I am waisting to much tippet with the bloodknot. Best from Iceland.
Right on. I feel the same.
Hey Dom. Just wanted to say I've learned a ton from your videos and your articles and wanted to thank you for putting all of this good information out there for free! Im also curious as to why with the add on dropper that you must use the down tag? Will the up tag snap off with a uni knot just like a double surgeons?
Thanks. I'm glad you found Troutbitten.
Yes, an up tag will break on a Uni Knot used as an add on line.
Excellent tips! Been using all three methods running 3 nymphs but with the double surgeons knot. I'll have to give the orvis tippet knot a try for the first two options.
Right on
I have always just used a double surgeons knot and have had no issues with it. I can typically rerig my setup if I break at the knot in less than a minute. I do it mostly for trout but also use it on steelhead and again no issues. To each their own
Good stuff, Corey. Splice or layover? Up tag or down tag?
Spin
?
@@Troutbitten I always thought using the up tag would break or open the knot with tension, whereas the down tag would tighten the knot. Is that correct?
@@FabMason Hi. That's very much my point about using the Orvis Tippet Knot. You CAN USE THE UP TAG. With a Surgeon's Knot, you are correct, it will break on a good fish.
Hope that helps.
Cheers.
Hello Dom, Shared the "Layover" with a friend. I think the up tag is a great improvement...they were concerned the up tag was much weaker than the down tag. Please comment...Love your content, learned a lot from you, many thanks, Mike
To add, My friend was referring to the Figure 8 knot having a weaker up tag. He believes the OTK and the Figure 8 are the same which you concur with however From reading the comments the Orvis Tippet knot is a "Double" Figure 8. Perhaps that explains the difference...
Double Figure eight is the same as the Orvis Tippet Knot. And it provides a strong up tag. But if someone doesn't believe it, they probably never will. They will look to fill their own bias and beliefs. That's alright.. If they have another knot that works, why change?
Thanks Dom...Hoping to hook a big one to prove it out. also plan to use this to add a dry rather than tying dropper to hook of dry@@Troutbitten
Thank you for a great vid! I’m just starting back fly fishing after a 7 year hiatus, and never liked how I tied droppers. This is MUCH better.
Good stuff
Love the tips! What brand of line were you using there for green and red?
OPST Lazar Line
Hi Dom Would you consider doing another video on your (3) ways to ty on droppers .. the last one was hard to see...could you do it w/ a better backdrop or bigger line ? Thanks Brian Mac
Hey BMac. Good to hear from you. I'll be honest: probably won't be redoing that video. Just a lot of other stuff to get to first. Email me, and I can clear it up. The add on line is just a uni knot around the main line above a knot. Slide it down, and you're done.
Good info. I really do need to practice the Orvis knot.
What was Josh's question?
" how do you feel about........?? I couldn't hear it.
He asked how I feel about loop droppers. Ha.
Awesome video as usual. Hey, what glasses do you have in this video? I like the tint.
Thank you. Costa Fantail Silver Sunrise. Cheers.
Its a great video thanks man, but what do you think about adding a second fly on the tippet ring with a improved clinch knot? I tested it, I tied it on a 90degree angle and while I cast it doesnt move it stays on that 90degree, but ofcourse when a fish is on it will slip down. I think its a good way to save time and material.
(by 90degree I mean when you tie your tippet and but section on a ring its in one line, left and right you have a angle of 90degree)
I like the upward tag and you showed me a simple way, thanks. 😁
Thanks for your comment. Honestly, I think using tippet rings for tag droppers doesn't save time at all. Instead of tying one knot to form a tag, you have to tie three knots. Think about it. It's one of those things that seems like a good idea until you put it into practice. Here's a full Troutbitten article on the subject:
troutbitten.com/2018/03/21/fly-fishing-strategies-tippet-rings-for-tag-droppers-no-thanks/
Hey Dom, thanks for this and everything as always. I had a thought: wouldn't the "layover" method be an overall safer way to tie in droppers, to alleviate splicing two lines together whenever we do a dropper?
Hi, and thanks for your question. I had the same thought, initially. You would think the layover would be stronger. But it makes no difference. After thousands of break offs to compare, I can tell you that it doesn't matter. I guess either one is a knot in the line, right. All of these methods are useful though.
Dom, for the add-on line, since it is a uni knot, can't you just tie it the other direction in order to get the uptag? Like a backing barrel knot with a tag that faces upward?
You can, but will break on big fish. Yes, the Backing Barrel uses the same knot, but there's no stress on the backing barrel. Using the up tag on a uni-knot slices through itself under a lot of tension. That's my experience. Cheers.
As always great knowledge shared. I recently switched to the orvis tag and prefer the upward facing dropper "less snaggy".. Thanks for sharing👌
Steve @blackflycreations
Agreed. Good stuff.
Amazing content as always. Thanks for everything you do. I'd love to have an up tag instead of a down tag with the surgeons knot I usually do, so I've been practicing the orvis tippet knot at home and I'm having some serious issues. The second I pull on the up tag, it breaks. Obviously I'm doing something wrong, and it's impossible for you to diagnose my issue without you seeing me try to tie it. But do you have any advice? Between watching you tie it in this video and the two videos I can find (including Pete Kutzer's), my head is spinning with the possibilities of where I'm going wrong. It seems each video lays one hand over the other differently, and uses opposite directions with the loops. I can do it great with the splice, but when I try to do the layover method, it breaks immediately. Are you doing it backwards with the layover? Or am I overthinking this, as we tend to do. Haha thanks again.
Hi Joe. Not sure what else to tell you other than to keep trying. Many knots give people problems at first, and there's always a solution/reason. My Davy Knots broke easily for a while. But I knew it was strong knot that worked great for many people, so I kept trying. Eventually, I realized that I was slightly pulling on the tag while clipping it, therefore unseating the knot. Once I cleaned that up, my Davy Knot was great, and I've been using it ever since. Point is, as you already said, you're doing something wrong. But you can find it and fix it with practice and determination. I don't think anyone else can diagnose it for you, though.
@@Troutbitten I'll keep at it and continue creating this pile of tippet snips on my coffee table! Haha all the best
@@joehoward1618 Cheers. I'm sure you'll get it.
Question-using the upward facing tag from the Orvis tippet knot for your dropper, don’t you run the risk of it breaking if using light tippet? I get the fact it reduces wrapping around the main line. You could also take the downward facing tag, and put a single overhand around the main line to get it sticking out 90° and do the same?
Thanks for your questions. No. That's precisely my point about the Orvis Tippet Knot (Double Figure Eight). The up tag is STRONG. But the up tag on a Surgeon's is not strong. When you perform that single overhand knot as you mentioned, you weaken the Surgeon's knot even more. In my experience, the Orvis Tippet Knot up tag is stronger than the method you described.
Cheers.
Thx for clarifying!
How is the layover different from the add-on line? Is the only difference that the layover can be anywhere on the leader, and the add-on goes just above a knot?
Cool question. The add-on line is slidable. But you can't slide the layover method.
Make sense?
@@Troutbitten Absolutely! I’ll have to give them both a try. Thanks again!
What’s your thought on a tippet ring and just tying a piece of tippet to it for the tag?
If I understand you correctly, you mean using the ring for what I'd call a junction box. If so, I say no. I don't like it at all. I thought it would be a good idea, but after fishing it many years ago, I realized the problems.
It does not save time. Now you have to tie three knots instead of one.
I don't like the way the tag material angles off the ring.
And I just don't like dealing with extra hardware down there.
Yes, even with the 1.5 mm rings I use.
Here's a full Troutbitten article on the subject.
troutbitten.com/2018/03/21/fly-fishing-strategies-tippet-rings-for-tag-droppers-no-thanks/
Hope that helps..
Cheers.
@@Troutbitten I appreciate the reply and yes, I tried doing it last week and it did not work well at all!
I'm sorry, but I didn't really catch the difference in the first two.
Was it the direction in which the tippet knot was tied or in which line it was tied?!
Thanks for a great video, I think tho I missed something! lol
No problem. Thanks for asking. The companion article will help you out, I think.
troutbitten.com/2022/09/20/video-three-great-ways-to-create-tag-droppers/
Cheers.
I’m just learning to fly fish as well as tying flies. With these tag setup’s, are you using a split shot at the end of your main tippet? Additionally does that mean that if I have two different flies off the tags that they need to be the same size or are the tags adjusted to the fly size? ie, size 12 elk hair Caddis using 4x for the first tag and a #16 bead head nymph off a 5x tippet for the other tag and how does this impact my casting? Or am I just not understanding how this fly fishing thing works? Mega Thx for any assistance you can help me with understanding what I am trying to do!!!
Split shot at the end is commonly referred to as drop shot. I have a full, six part series on Troutbitten about Drop Shot. Find that here:
troutbitten.com/category/drop-shot-nymphing/
No, the flies don't need to be the same size at all. In fact, I'd rather have the lower fly be heavier.
I'm confused when you're talking about mixing in an Elk Hair Caddis up top. That would be dry dropper. I do have a full series on that -- both podcast and articles:
troutbitten.com/tag/dry-dropper/
I know it's all a little confusing, but I think i know where you are coming from and what you're aiming for. I recommend reading this article about Tags and Trailers.
troutbitten.com/2016/03/18/tags-and-trailers/
Then follow the links within that article and use the search page on Troutbitten and the menus to browse through 950+ articles. Lots there, if you want it.
If you are very new to fly fishing, I recommend the Orvis Learning Center. They do a great job of breaking down the basics.
Hope that helps.
@@Troutbitten Mega Thx for the advice, I’ll definitely look into your suggestions
@@hirkojs Right on. Keep in touch.
To clarify on the layover, you're making the up tag longer so you can use it instead of the bottom tag? Is that correct? Thanks again.
I'm making the up tag longer, yes. But I can use it because it's created from an Orvis Tippet Knot. If it was a Surgeon's, I'd have to use the down tag.
@@Troutbitten Right on. Thanks.
I would love to see some empirical evidence for the theory that upward facing tag droppers tangle less than downward. This seems based upon the idea that the nylon is somehow acting as a stiff boom, but it isn't, its nylon and pretty damn flexible. I have found that its more likely to end with the dropper being knotted around the mainline whereas downstream it merely gets wrapped around the mainline which I don't see as being an issue at all.
Respectfully, I think that's exactly what I'm giving you -- empirical evidence. I and so many other anglers have fished both knots for a long time, tested them and seen the results. The up-tag tangles less.
If you don't like the knot or believe that it fishes better -- if it doesn't work for you -- then don't fish it. Simple as that, I think.
Everything works sometimes . . .
Cheers.
@@Troutbitten Sorry but that doesn't sound particularly respectful. It sounds like somebody who doesn't like being questioned!
Well that's not fair at all. You asked for empirical evidence.
That's exactly what this video gives you. Then I gave you more in my reply to your comment.
I'm also acknowledging that it might not work for you, and I think that's fine.
Not sure what else you're looking for.
I really enjoy hearing ideas and theories from other anglers. I think that's how we all improve.
Cheers.
Every time I try to fish with 2 nymphs, I feel like they spin around eachother and get wrapped up. I have a hard time casting it.
It doesn't have to be that way. I promise. Here's a good tip
troutbitten.com/2021/04/14/quick-tips-put-more-juice-in-the-cast-2/
I’m still on the fence with using dropper tags. I’ve extensively used both tags and put the flies directly on the tippet with my drop shot rigs. Ive never found my fishing to be more productive with tags. I’m beginning to think tags are unnecessary and a recipe for tangles and more time fixing messes.
Whatever works for you, that's good. For me, there's no question that tag rigging fools more of the trout I chase.
You keep mentioning being restricted in knots by tag up and tag down, but all of these methods could be tied to direct it up or down (including surgeons) you just need to plan ahead and lay your lines together to ensure the long tag is on the side you want in the end.
No, no. You're missing the point. I mentioned this in the video and in the article . . . If you use the up-facing tag on a Double Surgeon's knot it WILL break on a bigger fish. You can learn that the hard way if you do it enough. I made the mistake for years, before I realized what was wrong. And the Orvis Tippet Knot reverses and strengthens the knot when pulled from that direction. That's why I use it.
It's true. Give it a try. Glad you asked.
Cheers
I could be wrong but that Orvis tippet knot looks a lot like a Figure 8. The figure 8 is a oldie and a goodie. Here is vid showing its options.
th-cam.com/video/ELw2Wiyg9_g/w-d-xo.html
I agree with you. It's a figure eight. In this case, it's a double figure eight.
@@Troutbitten cool that’s a fav. Love your stuff thanks!
I've been doing it wrong this whole time!
Maybe . . .
Triple surgeon's knot. Eventually they break on me. Usually on the big fish...
@@matstaley388 Well, all knots break eventually, right? And there's always going to be something that's the weakest point in your line. I don't use a Triple because the Double works well for me. But I usually choose the Orvis Tippet Knot over the Surgeon's for other reasons. But I don't think either any of those knots is problematic. They are all time tested by many anglers over decades. But again, eventually, the line is gonna break somewhere. Here's an article about testing and knowing the strength of your tools.
troutbitten.com/2019/11/24/fighting-big-fish-how-strong-are-your-tools/
@@Troutbitten Would you use this to build a mono rig instead of blood knots?
@@matstaley388No, definitely not. This video is about creating tags in your tippet section. When building a Mono Rig, use blood knots for everything that is not the tippet section. Cheers.
Should have sat down at a desk and done the demonstration.
Nah. As I said in the video, this isn't for showing how to tie knots. You can find that elsewhere. This is a video that discusses different ways to create tags and why. The knots themselves are not the topic. Thanks for your input.
@@Troutbitten No probs 👍
I’d trust a Vegas call girl before I trusted an Orvis tippet knot.
Strange. I don't know anyone who has trouble with it. It is simply a double surgeon's, with the angle reversed.
I’m not a fan of giving these names that have nothing to do with the accepted knot name. Calling using an Orvis Knot “the splice” just weaves in a layer of confusion and honestly makes you come off as a little bit either disingenuously selling yourself or smelling your own farts.
Respectfully, you missed the point of the splice. You can splice with whatever knot you choose. I did NOT call the Orvis Tippet Knot a splice. If you have found another place that gives names to these three ways to create droppers, please share it here.
By the way, the Orvis Tippet Knot is just a double figure eight. Damn that Orvis company for smelling their own farts.
Technically if you are putting two things together
, like two pieces of line, you are just splicing it so....
And as OP mentioned with the orvis knot, it was just made popular as a tag knot and George Daniel's uses and calls it the orvis knot for dropper flies but it's not an orvis knot at all. Calm down my guy. There's no hard or soft rules for fishing. It's been around for thousands of years. Call it whatever you want as long as you know what it means when you use it.