Opening up a 430V EV battery pack that has done 5 years and 115k miles on the road to see what its like inside and recycle the modules for a second life application.
Nice one Brad - very interesting strip down and discussion regarding the complexity of the pack for future maintenance. I've got a Tesla for work, so a four year hard test without the worry of a costly battery replacement! 😄
Cheers. For sure this MGZS pack has been designed with maintenance in mind, whether that’s down to them not having much confidence in the cells they have used or because it was cheaper to do this way I’m not sure. There’s no doubt Tesla are still the benchmark when it comes to EV’s but it definitely wouldn’t be this easy to strip down. Lovely machines too 👍🏻
Very interesting video. If this simple pack was the norm, local (properly trained) garages could check and swap modules easily and send the faulty ones to a specialist facility to be refurbished. It would bring down the cost of repair, provide good value work to local garages and greatly expand the life of cars and their batteries.
Thanks for the great comment and absolutely this pack was built to be serviceable unlike so many others. It does make you think about the true motives of some OEM’s for sure who would rather the battery (or even the car) be disposable.
There is not an overall benefit to be able to swap one module out. Too costly compared to just scrapping an entire pack and instances where can due this are extremely rare. Putting a new module into a pack with old modules will cause the pack to be very out of balance. Usually messes with the BMS who then thinks they have a lot of bad cells. As well as usually the old modules will start needing to being replaced in a year or two anyways. Better to just swap an entire pack when a module or cell goes bad.
@@Triplebengineering Please get rid of the music and re-upload, it doesn't add anything and makes the it quite hard to understand what most viewers are here for: learning from the experts.
6s is 3.65V x 6 = 21.9V module, charging to 25.2. (22V would be closer!) I've done this job on an MG5, it uses 6 x 16s 58.4V modules, charging to 67.2V. It had ~70 7mm bolts, I didn't use my fingers to count them!!!
11:11 now try dropping a spanner across the pack voltage, and you'll get a lot more than a "tingle"!!! more like a melted spanner, and possibly a large fire.☠😱 22:22 You should scrape the modules across the floor, they are machined flat, and clean for thermal contact to the box... Summary: cell 3.65/4.2V individual "cell" Module: 6 cells (6s) Pack, or BPC: all the modules, 108s, or 18 x 6s modules, giving 394.2V nom, charging to 453.6V.
Good to see the technology is quite simple clear. I'm driving a ZS EV for 4 years now. I really like the car, but a few miles extra on the battery would be ideal. I assume that CATL might have new cells with slightly higher capacity with the same dimension. Take out the old cells and replace them with a same size higher capacity, would that do the trick, of would the bms and electronics go out of their mind? Any thoughts on that?
hmmm, CATL cells and MG Rear Motors look well built too. I was leaning towards using EV6 modules for my conversion but if the motor will fit i may use these. Thank you
@@Triplebengineering Hi, wow, that was quick. I bought my 1970 VW Camper 2 years ago and have been ready to covert it and get back round the world with it every day since. Sadly most companies i've approached have been prohibitively expensive or just all talk, so i've been studying your trade every day since. I will still need a workshop and help which i'm still working on but would also still be up for just sticking it on a tow truck and sending it to a specialist if you know of either? I'm in Bucks. John P.s. if you have the dimensions of the ZS motor that would help greatly too. Cheers
It would be good to add a short section on the contactors and assiciated wiring and safety lock-out that are presumably hiding in that front section of the case under the orange cover. But good follow-up to the swap video
Hi Brad, I was wondering what sort of 'structural' protection element they have on the bottom of the battery pack against accidental road bumps and debris? Nice video btw!
@@reginalduy3678 just a large chunk of cast aluminium tbh is all that separates the modules from the road surface. The case is very solid and has energy absorption sections all over it so the modules are quite well protected in truth.
@@Triplebengineering Nice, thanks for the reply! I was asking because I am curious about Chinese EV's structural integrity. With Tesla's for example, it's quite proven that the underside belly protection is really tough based on various YT videos I've watched. Would you say it's comparable (not greater maybe, but just comparable) to the level of toughness that Tesla underside bellies have?
@@reginalduy3678it’s quite difficult to say for sure without doing a back to back comparison using a measured blunt force. Also the cell topologies are very different in these MG packs which use prismatic battery cells compared to a Tesla pack which uses cylindrical cells so the makeup is very different. From what I have seen, could you break the casing on the MG, yes I would think so but only with a direct and focused hit to the underside of the car because the pack is well protected between the chassis rails and such I would say it’s highly unlikely. Maybe we will cut one of the cases up and show you a cross section inside in a later video.
Similar, most likely but possibly not identical as depending on what version you have it could either be an LFP battery or an NMC battery so the designs will differ slightly. It’s fair to assume that the overall design concepts will be similar however.
@@Triplebengineering I think the MG 4 packs are 96 large cells in series and skip the module stage. Not sure if that makes it easier to tear apart in the future though. 🙂
Im interested to know if a newer pack 2020+ with higher kwh would fit the same frame or the frame is even the same size. If irs possible to switch a 44kwh with a 67 kwh or what ever size available to the same car model.
Great job, Replacing EV batteries with unsatisfied requirement is a very meaningful thing, If you also want to replace EV battery for your car, Pls contact us, we can provide the EV battery module of Nissan Leaf for you.
Great video although as you have said below, its a pity there was no obvious point of failure. Speculating here but would the overall BMS keep the modules at the same total voltage but there may be one (or more) modules which, while at 24v overall has one low cell and all the other cells at their maximum voltage ?
Each of the cells (all 108 of them) have an individual sensor monitoring that cell so the BMS knows all 108 cell voltages and keeps them in check when charging and discharging, the cables connecting each module daisy chain the BMS slave boards inside each module together so they can all communicate with the master BMS, at least that would be my guess :)
We suspect it may have been a faulty BMS or faulty software rather than a battery cell issue. It is worth noting that there could still be an issue with a particular battery cell or module that only presents itself under load so even though the module voltages tested good and more importantly, consistent to each other it’s not a an absolute guarantee of no defect.
That logic is sound but in reality some of those BMS “comms” cables actually have full pack voltage on them anyway as they do the cell monitoring so it wouldn’t make too much difference from a safety perspective. The reason we did it the way we did was to get nice clear access to the HV busbars by removing all the other cables first.
I have some experience with these. They use a ltc6813 afe in each master module using isospi they communicate with the bmu ( BMS) I wondered how they worked the cooling into the base would it be possible to slice or cut a segment of the battery case where the cooling is so we can get in idea on thickness of material used to make the frame and supporting base structure of the pack . ? What happend to this pack it failed but do we know exactly why.?
Hi. If I was going to scrap the Alley I would. But at the moment I am keeping the pack as a possible rebuild project. With some other cells. Keeping the exsisting bms. Etc. what I will say is I was impressed with the construction of the pack . The cast aluminium box is well ribbed to provide strength the battery modules are all bolted to the welded in base plate this I believe is more ductile than the cast case. So in the event of the pack some how being bent the outer case will crack and shatter and absorb Energey while the base plate will tend to hold things in place and Bend each of the module are conected with a flexible busbar so can move with respect to each other some small amount while bolted hard down to that base plate . But when you look at positioning of the battery between the steel rails mid part of the car it is going to be some serious collision before this start to be a problem unless the car is rolled over on to a bollard direct impact the the base of the battery . And in this I think this would still take some abuse .
Good to see you both continuing to play on Bill's old pack and the suitability for maintenance. I think at a module level you didn't find a duffer being all about 24.1V?
@Triplebengineering , did i hear Bill say he works with high voltage UPS battery systems? If so, would he mind if I pinged him a couple of questions re converting an apc surt20k xli ups to lithium?
@@dm-ebike1834 the smaller 6 cell modules from the standard range 44kwh pack are NMC chemistry. The larger 16 cell modules in the extended range 72kwh pack are also NMC chemistry however the later gen2 packs (50kWh for the std size) are now LFP.
Probem is that you, like myself are old school practical and very aware (but not over excited) by the BS. Of course it's safe as you have done it.
Tankyou sir next day work going on this it's useful me tanks lot❤🥰👍
Nice one Brad - very interesting strip down and discussion regarding the complexity of the pack for future maintenance. I've got a Tesla for work, so a four year hard test without the worry of a costly battery replacement! 😄
Cheers. For sure this MGZS pack has been designed with maintenance in mind, whether that’s down to them not having much confidence in the cells they have used or because it was cheaper to do this way I’m not sure. There’s no doubt Tesla are still the benchmark when it comes to EV’s but it definitely wouldn’t be this easy to strip down. Lovely machines too 👍🏻
Very interesting video. If this simple pack was the norm, local (properly trained) garages could check and swap modules easily and send the faulty ones to a specialist facility to be refurbished. It would bring down the cost of repair, provide good value work to local garages and greatly expand the life of cars and their batteries.
Thanks for the great comment and absolutely this pack was built to be serviceable unlike so many others. It does make you think about the true motives of some OEM’s for sure who would rather the battery (or even the car) be disposable.
There is not an overall benefit to be able to swap one module out. Too costly compared to just scrapping an entire pack and instances where can due this are extremely rare. Putting a new module into a pack with old modules will cause the pack to be very out of balance. Usually messes with the BMS who then thinks they have a lot of bad cells. As well as usually the old modules will start needing to being replaced in a year or two anyways. Better to just swap an entire pack when a module or cell goes bad.
Great video but please remove the background music. It's not needed and annoying
Appreciate the comments, just didn’t want it to be too dry so added the background 😊
@@Triplebengineering I had difficulty hearIng the conversation too.
@@briangriffiths1285 safe to say I know cars and electronics far better than I do video editing :) but we will keep learning as we go 👍🏻
@@Triplebengineering Please get rid of the music and re-upload, it doesn't add anything and makes the it quite hard to understand what most viewers are here for: learning from the experts.
@@vgstb appreciate your feedback 👍🏻
6s is 3.65V x 6 = 21.9V module, charging to 25.2. (22V would be closer!) I've done this job on an MG5, it uses 6 x 16s 58.4V modules, charging to 67.2V. It had ~70 7mm bolts, I didn't use my fingers to count them!!!
All very good apart from these 6s cells are Li-Ion 4.2V per cell so thanks but our voltage measurements are correct 👍🏻
11:11 now try dropping a spanner across the pack voltage, and you'll get a lot more than a "tingle"!!! more like a melted spanner, and possibly a large fire.☠😱
22:22 You should scrape the modules across the floor, they are machined flat, and clean for thermal contact to the box...
Summary: cell 3.65/4.2V individual "cell" Module: 6 cells (6s) Pack, or BPC: all the modules, 108s, or 18 x 6s modules, giving 394.2V nom, charging to 453.6V.
And how are you going to do that unless you have a 20” long spanner……the “pack” ends are nowhere near each other
Awesome and interesting video! Hope to see more videos in the future.
Subscribed!
Appreciate the comments. The next videos will show what we do with the old modules. Cheers
Good to see the technology is quite simple clear. I'm driving a ZS EV for 4 years now. I really like the car, but a few miles extra on the battery would be ideal. I assume that CATL might have new cells with slightly higher capacity with the same dimension. Take out the old cells and replace them with a same size higher capacity, would that do the trick, of would the bms and electronics go out of their mind? Any thoughts on that?
hmmm, CATL cells and MG Rear Motors look well built too. I was leaning towards using EV6 modules for my conversion but if the motor will fit i may use these.
Thank you
What conversion are you doing?
@@Triplebengineering Hi, wow, that was quick.
I bought my 1970 VW Camper 2 years ago and have been ready to covert it and get back round the world with it every day since.
Sadly most companies i've approached have been prohibitively expensive or just all talk, so i've been studying your trade every day since.
I will still need a workshop and help which i'm still working on but would also still be up for just sticking it on a tow truck and sending it to a specialist if you know of either?
I'm in Bucks.
John
P.s. if you have the dimensions of the ZS motor that would help greatly too. Cheers
It would be good to add a short section on the contactors and assiciated wiring and safety lock-out that are presumably hiding in that front section of the case under the orange cover. But good follow-up to the swap video
Thanks for the comment and good shout on the control box, we should definitely show you all what’s in that 👍🏻
Hi Brad, I was wondering what sort of 'structural' protection element they have on the bottom of the battery pack against accidental road bumps and debris? Nice video btw!
@@reginalduy3678 just a large chunk of cast aluminium tbh is all that separates the modules from the road surface. The case is very solid and has energy absorption sections all over it so the modules are quite well protected in truth.
@@Triplebengineering Nice, thanks for the reply! I was asking because I am curious about Chinese EV's structural integrity. With Tesla's for example, it's quite proven that the underside belly protection is really tough based on various YT videos I've watched.
Would you say it's comparable (not greater maybe, but just comparable) to the level of toughness that Tesla underside bellies have?
@@reginalduy3678it’s quite difficult to say for sure without doing a back to back comparison using a measured blunt force. Also the cell topologies are very different in these MG packs which use prismatic battery cells compared to a Tesla pack which uses cylindrical cells so the makeup is very different.
From what I have seen, could you break the casing on the MG, yes I would think so but only with a direct and focused hit to the underside of the car because the pack is well protected between the chassis rails and such I would say it’s highly unlikely. Maybe we will cut one of the cases up and show you a cross section inside in a later video.
Very Useful video, thanks for the attention to detail.
What is the dimension of the modules please?
Great video thanks chaps. Would it be too much to assume the one in my MG4 is very similar ?
Similar, most likely but possibly not identical as depending on what version you have it could either be an LFP battery or an NMC battery so the designs will differ slightly. It’s fair to assume that the overall design concepts will be similar however.
Thanks sorry silly me should have specified, it’s an SE model (basic) so LFP.
@@Triplebengineering I think the MG 4 packs are 96 large cells in series and skip the module stage. Not sure if that makes it easier to tear apart in the future though. 🙂
Im interested to know if a newer pack 2020+ with higher kwh would fit the same frame or the frame is even the same size. If irs possible to switch a 44kwh with a 67 kwh or what ever size available to the same car model.
Unfortunately they use different battery chemistry and form factors so they aren’t cross compatible
Very informative thanks.
Great job, Replacing EV batteries with unsatisfied requirement is a very meaningful thing, If you also want to replace EV battery for your car, Pls contact us, we can provide the EV battery module of Nissan Leaf for you.
Hi, I like to use same pack for 48v solar system, how to connect it in parallel and lupe for master and slave to bms working properly ?
We can do one better than that. The next video will be on the home power system we built with these modules.
When this video will be released
@@YasirHabib93 we are just filming the next video now so after it’s edited it should be released in about a week or so 👍🏻
@@Triplebengineering its been a week reminder release date of video wen
Great video although as you have said below, its a pity there was no obvious point of failure. Speculating here but would the overall BMS keep the modules at the same total voltage but there may be one (or more) modules which, while at 24v overall has one low cell and all the other cells at their maximum voltage ?
Each of the cells (all 108 of them) have an individual sensor monitoring that cell so the BMS knows all 108 cell voltages and keeps them in check when charging and discharging, the cables connecting each module daisy chain the BMS slave boards inside each module together so they can all communicate with the master BMS, at least that would be my guess :)
Nice
Best💯 friend
So what was actually wrong with the pack? As they all seemed to be at the same voltage?
We suspect it may have been a faulty BMS or faulty software rather than a battery cell issue. It is worth noting that there could still be an issue with a particular battery cell or module that only presents itself under load so even though the module voltages tested good and more importantly, consistent to each other it’s not a an absolute guarantee of no defect.
wow, great job! could you elaborate on the dimensions of the pack please?
355 x 150 x 115. Mm. Length width hight
@@bill2960 thank you so much!
Wouldn't it have made more sense to split the pack first, rather than taking out the low voltage stuff with the pack at 400v?
That logic is sound but in reality some of those BMS “comms” cables actually have full pack voltage on them anyway as they do the cell monitoring so it wouldn’t make too much difference from a safety perspective. The reason we did it the way we did was to get nice clear access to the HV busbars by removing all the other cables first.
I have some experience with these.
They use a ltc6813 afe in each master module using isospi they communicate with the bmu ( BMS) I wondered how they worked the cooling into the base would it be possible to slice or cut a segment of the battery case where the cooling is so we can get in idea on thickness of material used to make the frame and supporting base structure of the pack . ? What happend to this pack it failed but do we know exactly why.?
Hi. If I was going to scrap the Alley I would. But at the moment I am keeping the pack as a possible rebuild project. With some other cells. Keeping the exsisting bms. Etc. what I will say is I was impressed with the construction of the pack . The cast aluminium box is well ribbed to provide strength the battery modules are all bolted to the welded in base plate this I believe is more ductile than the cast case. So in the event of the pack some how being bent the outer case will crack and shatter and absorb Energey while the base plate will tend to hold things in place and Bend each of the module are conected with a flexible busbar so can move with respect to each other some small amount while bolted hard down to that base plate . But when you look at positioning of the battery between the steel rails mid part of the car it is going to be some serious collision before this start to be a problem unless the car is rolled over on to a bollard direct impact the the base of the battery . And in this I think this would still take some abuse .
Good to see you both continuing to play on Bill's old pack and the suitability for maintenance. I think at a module level you didn't find a duffer being all about 24.1V?
That was the surprising thing, we expected to see a bad module but as you can see from the video they were all within 0.02V of each other.
@@Triplebengineering would the battery internal resistance be measurable? That could identify a bad cell/pack.
good work
@Triplebengineering , did i hear Bill say he works with high voltage UPS battery systems? If so, would he mind if I pinged him a couple of questions re converting an apc surt20k xli ups to lithium?
@@mechsmantg yes he does all that stuff so drop him a note. 👍🏻
@@mechsmantg @bill2960
@@Triplebengineeringthanks.
@@Triplebengineering can't seem to find him with that tag for some reason? Has Bill got his own channel or anything?
@@mechsmantg he’s in the comments section replying to a bunch of the threads here so have a hunt about and you should see the tag
Hi, who is the manufracturer of modules ?
I believe the cells are supplied by CATL and the packs are then built up by the OEM SAIC (Shanghai Auto) who own MG
Hi resolution photos of bms pcb available?
K
@@basilmathew9762 can be taken yes. We aren’t using the factory BMS in the secondary application but still have them.
Lfp or nmc battery ?
@@dm-ebike1834 the smaller 6 cell modules from the standard range 44kwh pack are NMC chemistry. The larger 16 cell modules in the extended range 72kwh pack are also NMC chemistry however the later gen2 packs (50kWh for the std size) are now LFP.
No safety
that cooling pipes around batery reforce that chinese cars are times bomb...
What makes you say that? Almost all high c rate batteries are liquid cooled and actually the cooling on this pack is quite well designed.