That was really insightful. In fact Kevin blew me away with his great explanation of EV repair. We need way more straight talking highly knowledgeable EV mechanics out there to give people confidence that EVs aren't a scary black box of failures, there is a real lack of knowledge, even in the car community. In fact give that man a job, he needs an Autotrader slot to get the world up to speed on EV repair and whats happening in the real world, far away from the fake world of dealers, company cars and warranty. Dude was a legend!
He's not a 'mechanic'. At best he's an auto electrician... He does repairs, so asking him how many he replaces makes no sense, really, as that's what manufacturers do as it's quicker and more cost-effective compared with the time, space, parts and expertise needed to do repairs/refurbs. Yes, this is a carefully worded, dumbed-down report for the layman and those that don't want to do the research.
@@DavidSmith-rk7tf great service but if insurance companies don't start using them we will still see EVs written off because of a scratched battery casing. If such repairs were within £5k that would keep many cars on the road.
@@DavidSmith-rk7tf biggest issue there is training of techs At the moment there is a big tech shortage, not just for EVs, but the car industry as a whole The car industry has been behind for a long time, training standards are poor, where I got trained for the first couple years, the teachers would pretty much do the students assignments/ tests for them, as they got pay/funding for the amount of students that passed, so if they hit/exceed the quota, they get more money = bonus, they eventually got shut down I'm COVID after being found out, but as a result, thousands of people got engineering and vehicle technician degress that didn't have no clue what they were doing, and after working at several garages and getting work from other garages, it really shows how poor the over all knowledge is and quality Also, one of the biggest issues, pay I currently am on minimum wage, I do servicing, repairs, clutches, engine swaps etc, I buy all my own tools, and I'm currently looking for a different career, as all other garages are the same except main dealers which have unrealistic expectations or just outright lie about what to expect, they may say you'll get 35k a year, but 5k of that is bonuses if you hit targets, and the conditions and work load are brutal, I'm 26, my back aches, I have an issue with a old injury from a ruptured abdomen, my shoulders and wrists ache, and I have nothing to show, I'm struggling to get by So why would anyone who sees the harsh working conditions and work load, intense levels of experience and knowledge required, and piss poor pay and paying for your own tools, want to do the job, when even basic jobs will pay you more? The industry needs major changes before anything can truly progress, because as you see in this video, all these EVs are about, but there's fuck all people who can fix them, and no one wants to be trained up to do the job
@@ProXcaliber We're both wrong: they're called "Autocare Technicians" these days, they even get a certificate, though from looking at the services Cedar Electric offer, there's f*ck all that needs an experienced mechanic tbh, I guess you looked at the services? It's why my local garage are planning to wind down and close, they don't touch electrics, can't afford the EV training and equipment, and can't make enough doing EV MoTs...
Fantastic series Rory. It’s done a lot to discredit a lot of the misconceptions around EVs. I’d have more faith in a 200k mile EV than a 200k mile ICE car.
well clearly you dont know cars well if you noticed theres many cars still on the road with 200k plus long as you service it any car will last even 500k even higher then that i sold my picanto 1.1 with 140k i brought it with 60k and still on the road when i sold it 2yrs ago
@@watchanything-c7r I know cars fairly well, which is why I know how much Turbos, DMF/Clutches, EGR Valves, DPF’s, timing chains etc etc cost to fix. Manufacturers don’t build cars to do 200k+ miles anymore, why would they?
@@watchanything-c7r They didn't say that an ICE car can't last that long, they just said that they would trust an EV with 200k miles more than an ICE car with 200k miles.
Facts are that most dealerships dont have the facilities or staff training to deal with EV battery repairs or finance installing all the necessary safety kit so they go for a full battery swap.
It relates to all aspects of maintenance provided by dealerships. It's not just about facilities or staff. They don't make money on parts being refurbished but always want to sell new and replace. The more the better even if it's unnecessary... That's why when the warranty expires no one visits them anymore...
@@barneyrubble9309 Simpler than you might think, actually. No, you don’t unleash a novice on a battery swap, and yes, you need a special battery lift and safety equipment to isolate the pack. The actual process for my Volvo has a book time of 1.4 hours, and the manufacturer provides training videos and full diagnostics. So definitely quicker than engine or transmission replacement. Dealers are reluctantly getting up to speed, knowing that they won’t make the money from maintaining an EV that they do from ICE. And I imagine that specialist companies as well as manufacturers will get into the business of refurbishing batteries and electronics so the prices will moderate, but I don’t expect things to ever be bargain basement cheap. And for what it’s worth to the die-hard ICE fans, despite 90%+ of new car sales being EV in Norway, 70% of cars on the road are still ICE. And let’s not forget that this was about changing a battery after how many miles?
@@davidcottrell570 Not a single manufacturer is willing to share those training videos or tools for a reasonable price. And they make it very hard for third parties to repair or replace the battery, as their software is required to program the battery. Clearly the manufacturers care more about profits than the environment.
10 year old Prius taxi drivers do not take them to Toyota, they take them to a backstreet garage, every town has one. This will be where we will take evs that are out of warranty
We already have two very nice shops in my city that work on EV's and batteries and I don't live in a big city. As time goes on they will be everywhere.
I know a guy locally that rebuilds batteries. He helped me build a charger for my electric motorcycle. It was $600 to fix my ex's Prius battery. This is not a thing I'm worried about.
My Prius battery on my 12 year old CT200H Lexus was replaced for £710 by a specialist. (Japanese reconditioned rack). This is Malaysia where mechanics are great value and knowledgable.
I got a used 2021 Tesla model 3 for $17k last month. Three weeks later, battery failed. Car had 65k miles. Tesla replaced it with a brand new 2024 LFP battery and it gave me 100 more miles than the car I bought. They gave me new upgraded suspensions and tire alignment. I did not have to pay a dime. I can now enjoy traveling much farther distances. ------------- EDIT: because I keep getting alerts with all the new comments - the LFP battery still works great. No, I don't have any affiliation with Tesla. Just sharing my experience. Do your research cause if you're getting used, get low enough mileage so your warranties are not expired. The battery is hit or miss. Let me tell you, I was stressed so much the first month I had the car because my battery was draining like crazy. I could only do one trip a day and I would lose 15% just idling in a parking lot for 30 minutes. If there wasn't a total battery failure, I would have been stuck with this or perhaps it would have been a fight to convince Tesla there is a problem. Looking back, I got very lucky but it was a very risky situation. So if you're looking to buy one, run every test you need to regarding the car's battery health. And then do everything to maintain the battery's good health.
The upgraded suspension is because the new LFP battery is a lot heavier than your failed NMC pack. Suspension has to be adapted to the higher weight. And Tesla replaces the old, 44 kWh NMC packs with newer, 60 kWh LFP's because their supplier doesn't build the old small NMC pack anymore - 60 kWh of LFP being cheaper to build than 44 kWh of NMC.
I am a fan of EVs but I must say I learned a lot from this video series, most importantly that batteries can be repaired not just exchanged for new ones. Thank you.
Really interesting video. Having just dipped my toes in with a plug in hybrid im really enjoying driving on ev for most of our driving. Not to mention im already saving a fortune on fuel. I was blown away that a tesla is still performing strongly at such high mileage.
independent experts and backstreet garages will soon be banned to work on your EV, the same as only qualified Gas Safe registered engineers can carry a Gas repair in your home.
@@ironman8257 yes, of course, but because the technology is so advanced, so will the training be for a hefty price of: ££££££ How many will be able to afford it? And then, they will pass their certification fees onto EV owners. You go today to a specialized ICE garage, they will charge you an arm and a leg to cover the training of their staff. You go to a backstreet ICE garage where the mechanic learnt how to fix a car on his uncle car, he will not charge you a dime for his training, and so his fees are much lower. That's why so many people can afford ICE cars today. How many people will afford EV cars in the future, when half the price you pay for repair-or-maintenance will go towards training and certification?
what car have you got that costs half the list price to swap an engine? 😂😂 short blocks for most common hatchbacks are a few grand and the same again for fitting
@@PsychedMedia and thats the problem when a lot of people make comparisons to electric cars. They compare the reliability of an EV against a Toyota. The cost of maintanence against a Honda. The performance against a Lambo. The fact is that you can't get the best of all worlds anywhere.
@@knight2425 Reminds me of my mother in-law. Why do I need a smartphone when this flip phone works just fine? I don't care whether you buy EV or not, but if everyone followed this logic, technology would never progress.
@@Ryan-ff2db so your saying that modern ICE vehicles are the same as outdated flip phones? Pretty poor comparison and what rubbish technology wouldn’t progress
Spot on Rory, you have got those numbers out there for everyone to understand. If circa £5K looks like the going rate to do a repair, about twice the value of my wife's car, then hmm I am sure I am not going to rush into EVs for a while. Well done. Hopefully things will get better, but it is going to take a long time, if ever, for things to get realistically cheap.
Keep in mind that this is after 400k miles, and that this vehicle was used and abused as a taxi during its usage. If used normally, this car likely could easily reach more than 500k miles and see a decade or more of use before even needing to consider that 5k repair.
Excellent video as always. Here is another example, last year Canadian guy in British Columbia was quotes almost 60,000 Canadian dollars to replace the battery in his Ioniq 5 because of under carriage scratches.
There's been aftermarket battery sources for hybrids for years now which are quite affordable. Per the ICE, as long as it is well-maintained (e.g. oil changes), it will more than likely outlast an ICE on a petrol-only car. I have two friends with Prius's that lasted over 200,000 miles.
Lexus hybrids are not considered ‘high mileage’ until 250,000 miles. Hybrid engines last longer because the ICE engine and the electric motor share the wear and tear. They do need regular maintenance like any car.
@@madmcadder4536 You said you were worried about hybrid vehicles, so I dealt with that. My answer addressed your worry directly. More taxi drivers use hybrids than EVs. That’s a clue to their reliability and high mileage capability.
A great review Rory as always, well done and thank you. We sold our 8 year old first gen Mercedes B Class EV with 65k, only lost £3k over five years, it was still returning the same range (100 miles) as when we bought it second hand with 15k and was still a joy to drive, just had a poor range in the mountains where we live and slow charging and we wanted a more modern EV. We replaced it with a SMART #1 which was cheaper and better (in our view) than any comparably priced European made EV. A year later we are still happy with our choice and will never go back to driving cancer inducing diesel ICE or petrol. Too many critics out there that haven’t actually lived with an EV for a reasonable time to make a valid judgement and therefore scaremonger the public. We had numerous warranty claims on our previous ICE cars and some very hefty bills, so it is a false claim against having EVs as there are simply less parts to go wrong!
Just replaced my 2005 ford mondeo 1.8 petrol had 116k miles on the clock.went for a tesla model3 2021..if I get 19years out of it like the ford I'm well happy...o tesla comes with 100k miles or 8 year what ever comes first warranty aswell .electric for the win!
People complain about £5k (and thats for a Tesla module), but how many wet belts are causing replacement motors to be scrapped out? That tesla has covered HALF A MILLION MILES and still has almost 200mile range.
A refurb for an EcoBoom engine for a Ford won't cost you £5k! No it wont do 190 miles on a single charge with 72% of battery health remaining. You shouldn't be charging it above 80% and should not let it drop below 20%. So you actually have only 60% of the 190 miles remaining, which is just 114 miles. So it's become a town runabout!
@@grahamdyke6612id still take the Tesla and the performance and the half million miles over any ICE. And remember, almost every EV owner has owned an ICE. And the GAS SAVINGS would more than cover that 5k. I save ~2k per year on my Tesla. I’ve already saved enough to pay for a new battery.
Im calling garbage that this car is original at all, this whole thing stinks to talk people into EVs. Older Teslas had so many issues with motors and batteries failing that its highly unlikely all original
Thank you Rory for this-and thank you Kevin for creating this gap business in the channel. I wish you had an operation in Salt Lake City ;-) The real question for me, is really how often do batteries/cells fail? I ask this as my next car-I hope- will be an EV (R1T). Of all my friends who drive EVs (20%) there are no reports of failure, just happiness.
So the conclusion for this video: An independent specialist is going to be cheaper than going to a main dealer. So business as usual then. And when it comes to battery replacements, I try to keep in mind that the battery is the equivalent to an ICE's engine; ie the component that generates the motive power for the final drive. A replacement engine is always the big ticket item in an ICE so I'm going to guess the prices are going to be similar.
pretty much, with chance of failure being around the same level but an ice engine usually degrades in performance linearly with EVs being more step by step but each step beyond the top one really means a repair is necessary.
@@withoutwroeirs Technically speaking, yes you are correct, but that misses my point in trying to set equivalents for ease of comparison in terms of mechanic time and complexity.
@@deaks25 I don't know how two different functions can be considered as equivalent. There been more battery changes than ICE engine changes in the short life of the EV industry, but no alarm bells are ringing.
Thanks Rory for highlighting and sharing especially these days as cars should not be chucked away especially when they used to last very long if looked after and if we honest unloved when we were younger
Rory is a Ev man. He was before he appeared on Topgear and talked about Evs on the show. My friend paid 3k for his 2014 Nissan Leaf and that is thanks to you Rory. Rory Can you put a list of every car you have owned since you passed your test to the present day as this would give us a idea of car taste.
What would be awesome, is, if you could not just replace the battery, but when you do so upgrade it. Imagine taking a 60 kWh car to 85 kWh because of new battery technology. It’s like an engine swap for your car , but better :)
The problem is that battery packs themselves aren't always guaranteed to fit into different models. This is due to the fact that there isn't really a standardized battery design. I'm sure in the future this might become much more common, but for now I think the best route is to just make better batteries in general.
@@davidlewis4399 if you paid attention to the video, you can see that a battery swap doesn’t either… And yes, if you do a new engine, it might very easily cost you 20k, its just that nobody does, because why would you?
Tesla actually has done this with several models, the Model S and X in particular even got this badge change and the model change in the infotainment system to match. Also when we are 10 years down the road, its likely for the same physical volume of a battery today you'll probably only need 70% or less of the same space for the same amount of power as battery tech gets better and better.
Skillset nails it - many mechanics wouldn’t have a clue with electronics so modular replacements are the “easy” options - same as brake calipers etc being replaced when refurb would be a better option. Same problem in the heat pump industry where the average gas fitter doesn’t have the skillset to transition easily to fitting heat pumps…
Hang on... a replacement *hybrid* battery is ~22k, but a replacement BEV battery is ~14k... the Hybrid typically only has a 10-15kWh battery (compared to e.g. 75kWh for the Tesla)... so why the heck is it so much more expensive? It's certainly not the cost of the cells (new cells are ~$50/kWh... even at $100/kWh that would only be $7,500 for a Tesla, or $1,000 - $1,500 for the Hybrid... apologies for using dollar-values, but that's the currency cells are quoted in, from what I've seen). Either way, it's clear automakers are trying to take people to the cleaners with those hybrid pack-prices.
The Tesla battery was a refurbished unit, the others were new batteries. Tesla offer a battery exchange where they take and refurbish your old battery. Much like if you bought a reconditioned engine from a specialist verses a new one from the manufacturer.
That is insane! I had a 2021 Acura RDX (I believe it uses the same engine as the Civic Type R) and it started having issues around 30k to 40k. I ended up getting rid of the car and bought an EV to replace it just this year, and I can't say I regret my decision.
This was a great set of videos, and something that should reassure used EV buyers. It should be noted, that apart from some of the old, unmanaged batteries of the past, most EVs will never need battery repair in their lives. But if they do, then it isn't going to break the bank. I think that maybe the biggest weakness will be the screen and software behind it will get old before the end of the life of the car, but this would also apply to ICE cars, that also rely on similar hardware and software.
Evs are cheap second hand. 15 to 20k buys you a low mileage second hand one. I would do that thanks. I have done that with petrol cars. My car had a fault, I was honest and told the dealer and part exchanged it. I had a 500Sl Mercedes with engine faults and changed it for a 320 Clk and all is good. You can always change your car. It does not have to cost that much. A Ev with 90000 miles on the clock I would change for a 3 year old one with 30k on the clock.15 to 20k to do it all. Yes please. Then I get a car with relatively new suspension, steering and running gear as well. Yes please!
Great series about old Teslas from AutoTrader! I Bought 2017 Model S with 135.000 km 1.5 year ago after owning i3rex and i3S for 5 years, I like this car a lot, not much has gone wrong with it so far, mostly typical maintenance stuff. Not afraid of it and prepared for eventual battery repair that's all, same as I would have to be ready to change the engine or gearbox in one of my petrol BMWs in the past. Most people these days seem to be going for new EVs with PCPs, don't want to deal with issues, and replace it with another/different car 3 years later.
Interesting - I bought a 100D from Autotrader last December with similar mileage. I've put 20K miles on it so far and my max range bounces between 306 and 310. What's your range?
@@ElMistroFeroz My one is 75D, difficult to compare range. Usually around 310km mixed driving in good weather(~20 deg.C), mild winter ~240km on full charge.
I would love to see some statistics on miles driven between mechanical faliure on the average ICE car vs miles driven between battery or drivetrain failure on an EV with associated ave repair costs for each. Having owned both I suspect electric cars will win over as they are much simpler and have less moving parts. Dealerships generally do not like selling electric cars because they know they will not be back for services and they are less likely to go wrong.
2000€ for my 530e for 3 new cells from BMW. Battery capacity went up from 7.4kw(when new) to 9kw. Not bad at all considering also a 2 year warranty on the new cells.
Good review as usual Rory. My wife has a 2020 530e. She has a BMW warranty that covers the electric battery and other high end electric component's specifically. Its not expensive. If your gonna buy electric cars you need to protect against big ticket items or your asking for troubles.
So let me get this right. Dealer replaces your battery, hits you for 15-20k for the privilege. Takes your battery, fixes it for probably a few K, then I imagine reuses that and charges another customer 10-15k for a refurbed unit ? So they basically double dip.
@@GuyFerguson I was refering to the main dealers not the repair outfit in the video. If I had an EV I'd take it to these guys to get fixed, It seems if you go to a main dealer they can't fix the battery on site so they hit you for a new battery, take your old one and repair it offsite and then more than likley re-sell it.
@@w1ldwesty You are correct, at least according to this video. I would agree that taking it to a third party to get it repaired instead of replaced is a more cost-effective option. However, I'm assuming that having a brand-new replacement would also be a nice option if you want the original range of the vehicle back and likely have the original warranty back as well. Personally, if I know I've owned the car for say 10 years, and I want to keep it for longer, I would not mind paying the premium to get back the original range of the car. But that also assumes that battery technology hasn't improved in that time span, which likely also wouldn't be the case.
@dogsbodyish8403 Oils, grease, brake dust, road grime...all present on and in suspension and drivetrain components of EVs just the same as in ICE cars. A good mechanic / technician would clean themselves up before touching a car's interior etc. - I do.
@@clivereid True, but routine maintenance (if needed) doesn't involve the 'orrible engine oil change. Not to mention lack of such items as timing chains, wet belts, camshafts, turbos etc.
Not Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Chevy, or Chrysler. What manufacturers are you talking about? Tesla has 8 years on the drivetrain only. (EDIT) I’m wrong. I was talking about ICE powertrain warranties. Sorry
That's what makes the battery life naysayers so dumb. They think manufacturers sell EV owners a car with a battery that won't last four years when it's guaranteed for twice that long. If Jeremy Clarkson was telling the truth then all EV owners would get free replacement batteries under warranty for all eternity. That would make the manufacturers as dumb as the naysayers.
I just saw this Model S in Manchester on M60 motorway. Had to come back to this video to double check number plate that it was same model S. Going strong with more miles adding on. Had my model 3 for 2,5 years and can’t praise it enough. Most economical car I ever owned especially with 7p per kW on octopus tariff.
Ev suks battery chemistry a mistery the gauge tells you whatever it want to tell you how can you verify it is true or not? You cant see in the gas tank there is no gas tank
The battery health after such insane mileage is simply amazing I’ve been driving for over 30 years and I have not done that many miles across all cars combined (6-7)
That was a really helpful episode. I have googled this very question and it’s frustrating how online the reply you get to this very reasonable question is “don’t worry, EV batteries don’t die” which is total BS. This episode, however, has answered all of my questions in plenty of detail.
It’s not just the charging and repair infrastructure that’s lacking, so is the third party service infrastructure. There just isn’t enough HEVRA accredited garages out there to do simple servicing, and the garages around me won’t even come out and look at it - one wouldn’t even MOT it. The only choices I had here in the lakes was a 100 mile round trip to a main dealer, or Cleevely’s mobile. I obviously went with the second option, which to be fair I’d probably of done anyway even if the dealership was closer, better to have experienced professionals look after your car, than one that may only see an EV very occasionally.
This is such a great series!! Entertaining and informative at the same time, especially as more used EVs are coming into the market and prices are dropping like a rock for them. Thanks for this!
Really need more independent shops for electric cars. My Taycan had a battery repair not replacement and that was $42k. Right now repairing electric cars, at least in the states, relies on the manufacture and their absurd pricing.
To be fair, it is a Porsche. But I get where you're coming from and totally agree that more independent shops and more widely available parts for EVs would be amazing. This would likely also help bring insurance costs down and make throwing away an EV after an accident a thing of the past.
My 9 Yr old / 170,000 Outlander Phev battery just had a cell go down (which was likely due to me missing fact the AC needed regassing). I could have DIY repaired for £30 (yes, thirty) pounds with a single cell replacement, but actually upgraded to a later pack with low miles / higher rated capacity for £1300. If you can do a clutch, you can do battery work: just make sure you understand and respect the safety side. The physical work is straighforward (and nice and clean!).
Hi, who is replacing cells on Outlander Phevs? I've got a 2016 that has a supposed battery health 64% last time I checked. Manage to get around 20 miles during warmer days and a little less during winter.
I've got a 2016 BMW 330e and it's lost 50% of it's battery range. I want to get it repaired but I cannot justify spending 5k on it. Better to just run the car on petrol even if it's less efficient. I'm still saving on road tax (£0) and I mostly do motorway miles. Or is it worth me looking into it?
if you do mostly motorway miles keep it like this. It will be very hard to get your money back in fuel savings. You still have 50% range so drive it like a normal hybrid . For 5k you can buy 3500l fuel :))
You all also have to consider the fact that year-to-year maintenance for an EV is drastically reduced, especially if you avoid going to the dealership out of warranty. The small costs of ICE vehicles adds up over time too, you just don't think about it. My 20 year old grand Cherokee drove fine and was fairly reliable, but I still spent plenty of money across the board with replacement parts and my car was one of the cheaper cars to source and repair. It may not break even because of battery costs but for the insane repairs for all new cars, its better than you think.
My brand new Audi came with 5 years free servicing so maintenance costs are very small. People that do well with cars know when to buy them and when to sell them which means they lose very little with depreciation and if you buy correctly you can sell cars for what you paid or even more which I’ve never seen with an EV.
@@knight2425, as EVs have scaled I'm not seeing what I used to do. Buy and run an EV for 2 years, put 15k miles on it and sell it for what I paid. I did this with a Renault Zoe. Now due to large fleets used values are down. But it's great if you want a used EV. Bargains galore 😊
@@HairyCheese I bought an RS3, has 5 year warranty and 5 years free servicing, will sell it soon for a new one and get close to if not all my money back and it will be sold with 3 year warranty and free servicing, don’t know of any EVs that could have done that for me.
@@knight2425 EVs are currently a tech product, and as such, once the new ones are out, the old ones drop in value drastically. Another reason is due to how quickly they improve, and not just on the feature set alone.
The first question you need to ask, how many people will really drive their vehicles, much less an EV to 200k miles, then, 300k miles, then 400k miles? If that's me, just buy another new one because it would have paid for itself more than once already.
@@davidlewis4399landfill? The battery and metals recyclers are practically begging for these to hit EOL, every metal in an EV is fully recyclable and reusable. EVs don't make it to the landfill, its full of desired metals.
I get your point but when I have free supercharging on my old model s, I am keen to keep this saving so for me it will be battery repairs for as long as I can get them unless a similar car is presented with a recent battery swap or repair at the right price that at 6k for a repair is unlikely.
2018 model 3 long range rwd with 145k here and going strong lol and plan to keep driving it as long as the vehicle and battery continue to hold up. Been a great reliable car for me and my last vehicle was a 2019 Lexus ES300h
Repair businesses always appear where needed but they do lag behind the need. They flourish where new items are either unavailable or unaffordable. In Cuba for example American cars of the 50s and 60s were still going long after the same models had disappeared in the US. Battery cell format and chemistry is changing at a very rapid pace, and although some pack formats might be retrofitted with present-day cell types, the move to structural packs will make that harder, if not impossible. I suggest that EVs can serve well both affluent and poor countries: latest and greatest for the former, and standardised packs in utilitarian, endlessly renewable, vehicles for the latter. The repair businesses that will disappear are the dealerships, although that worst-of-all worlds, the hybrid, should keep them going for a while ...
What a good informative video by Rory. I still wished you'd put the old S against a new Y or something with 800V architecture. My I-Pace is the same from 2018 to 2024 except the entertainment system changed.
@@wsu8568 no they don't. Do your research Mr Diesel Troll. Oh and by the way, diesel sitting in a tank will also go off pretty quickly (look up diesel polishing). And Petrol goes bad too. So what?
@@ouethojlkjn He’s right that there is some component of calendar aging in the battery lifecycle. But for many modern batteries, the calendar aging aspect could be well over a decade before it’s an issue, so far out that we don’t even have good data on it yet.
Hasn't the Tesla with more miles ever changed like 4 motors and 3 batteries? What was the total cost+ car cost+ maintenance cost + electricity consumption /per mile driven?
@@goldenturdZeniru The vehicle featured in this video is running on the original motor and the original battery pack. And completed 430,000 miles. So let's do the math. The total cost of replacement of battery pack is Zero and the motor was zero. Add them up and you get zero. Of course during this 430,000 miles, the Tesla will also have burned through a number of replacement exhaust systems, gearboxes, clutches, turbos, timing chains, brake pads, brake disks, engine oil, oil filters, impossible to get at oxygen sensors, high temp hoses, radiators, fuel pumps, water pumps and alternators. Just like any other car.
The comparison to ICE car repairs is spot on. Just like with an internal combustion engine, EV components can be repaired or replaced as needed. The key is to have access to skilled technicians and affordable parts, which is becoming increasingly available in the EV space.
Sadly, any modern car is not really built for maintenace or repairs, not only EVs. My father in law bumped a trailer in front and smashed the headlight lens on his 2016 220d, FOUR AND A HALF GRAND LATER he got the car back! Apparently there are all sorts of other gubbins and sensors and wires and whatnot plus a lick of paint and a buff up.
@@ouethojlkjn You're absolutely right about the high cost of repairs, especially for modern cars with complex electronics and safety systems. It's no secret that traditional automakers make a significant portion of their profits from their parts business, serving the existing fleet.
Great content. About time someone busted all the b.s myths about battery life and repair costs. I've been in numerous debates with people harping on about the same thing. I've always said it is far more expensive to replace an ICE unit than changing modules in a Battery pack. Even a few years ago a normal engine would be upwards of £10k for a run of the mill mass produced car/van. And trust me those things go bang a hell of a lot more frequently than a Battery pack...
Tesla are sneaky, it's been proven that they have a very large buffer in the battery pack with many over the years being able to unlock extra capacity for a fee. With the over the air updates they can easily tell the software to unlock some of that extra capacity to hide the degradation.
£5k is a lot cheaper to repair that to buy a new battery, but it's still a lot of cash and then nothing to say another module won't fail. Especially bad for people on lower incomes I should think.
I think a £5k repair on a 400k mile car = scrap yard in reality. It had an amazing run, but it's the equivalent of a head gasket going on a super high milage ICE car
Ok, but that money you spend on battery repair/replacement is outstandingly less then what you will spend on gas in an internal combustion vehicle. My father and I have done the math and for our last gas car (a 2016 Subaru outback) we would spend 24,000 dollars on gas over the lifetime of the vehicle. However our Tesla model Y would be 5000 dollars on electricity. So that leaves you ahead $19,000 from gas alone not to mention not doing oil changes and other small repairs. The EV package is way better than anyone gives it credit for.
A new cell for my 2020 Kia E Niro is £45. Its unlikely (because of the way the pack is laid out) that I'd need to replace more than 3 of them at once. It's a repair I'd tackle myself. I know I'm unusual in that, but it won't be long before the sort of specialists like existing gearbox and engine rebuild houses pop up everywhere for battery rebuilds. These guys can charge £5k at the moment, but it won't be long before basic repairs are under £500 (on cars like mine which have easy to work on batteries - not the sort of glued together packs on the latest Teslas). BTW my car is at 90k miles with 100% battety state of health.
Thanks, the information and discussion is great. This idea is also wide spread, send the vehicle to the manufacturer and pay more, versus, the mechanic down the street. As a vehicle enthusiast, gaining extra power by fine tuning different aspects is what is sought, like crossing the electrodes for twice the power, which takes the batteries out of + and - alignment. Vote, elect ions.
Many EV’s on the road today are still under the 8 year battery warranty. As for replacing it outside the warranty- there are refurbished batteries available for £6k-£10k. A refurbed Porsche Taycan battery is just £8k, No one needs to spend £20k, £30k, £40k+ on a battery replacement after 8 years, for any EV !
Now see what happens if you hit something on the road and dent the battery pack which has happened a lot and requires replacement. Likewise lets see who wants to buy your used EV at the end because it dealerships dont want them and neither do private sellers. Tesla wont even warranty the battery unless its resold through them.
@@whatcouldgowrong7914Hey genius do most people drive those very expensive EV without having insurance? If the battery is damaged most insurance companies will not take any risk and right off the EV and give you a payout! Wow amazing!
@@SDK2006b If the outer casing is dented then the battery is damaged, this has happened numerous times already with Hyundai being the most prominent writing off the vehicle cost wise.
@@gregb1599 You seem to think insurance claims are a free ride when it drives up premiums for everyone and writes off the entire vehicle which is completely contrary to your green garbage movement. Insurance will not repair them and write off the vehicle
Great to Kev from Cedar garage. Levi’s the business head behind Cedar, Matt is the tech wizard!! Arguably one of the best gragesin the UK. After all they did win Garage of the year award 👍
My Model Y 1 year old. Now its 27.000km and we will go more kilometers. I like electri car. If you have one time a electric car, you cant turn any benzin/diesel car again...
Time, I have a random monthly round trip of up to 1500 km. There is almost no rural charging beyond level 2, and sometimes not even that. Some level 3 charging is only available at 50kW, I have spent hours charging in strip malls or gas stations. Hotels often advertise charging, only to find it’s a single level 1 or two stall, and someone is already camped out there for the night. This is time my work does not recognize, so I don’t have an extra day or two to get my work done, I have to burn my vacation time. Totally not worth it.
I would be very careful with the Chinese BYD as their batteries are fixed together by structural glue which makes them almost impossible to repair unless it's BMS issue .. We need trained competent people to repair battery packs with spare parts available to these people I still think 5000 pounds too much for a repair
@@joedarkness808 Lots of manufacturers. Chinese or not are now starting to use structural batteries, this is one of the reasons even Telsa's non LFP batteries aren't repaired at site. The same goes for a lot of modern batteries.
This is very reassuring thanks I plan on keeping my Subaru Solterra (rebadged Toyota BZ4X) for decades. We do cells as well so I'll never need to replave the pack, (maybe repair one day 30 years down the road) good to know! Great video!
the problem with module replacement is it took a long time for new battery to have a battery module failure, but replacing the failed module, you'll still be stucked with other failing modules that you don't know when they will fail, and it's soon
Knowledge and understanding as usual, seems to be a huge problem these days. People find it far to easy to just hate on something. I.c.e. cars cost a huge amount to maintain and repair compared to an ev but the facts are ignored every time. This is a fantastic series of videos and is hugely helpful and important so well done!
The spare parts for battery packs was interesting Governments need to enforce right to repair. Plenty of capable engineers and techs out there willing to learn and bring those repair prices down even further.
Worth noting that the BIG difference in cost between repairing an EV vs and ICE comes with the hugely simpler diagnostics required. If your ICE doesn't start or has a misfire, it could be one of about 100 different parts that have failed or worn. Diagnosing what has failed is complex, time consuming (and hence expensive) and often done very very badly (just google "my ecu needed to be replaced" for litterally thousands of stories of garages who have no idea what they are doing randomly changing parts that are totally fine......) With an EV, the diagnosis is simple, as really there are only about 5 failure modes, and the main, expesnive ones have full diagnostics coverage and are not interdependant, unlike in an ICE. Plug into the BMS on an EV and it will tell you EXACTLY how worn each cell in the pack is for example, what the HVcontactor life remains, or what the isolation resistance is etc
yea they really never bothered making the diagnostics with enough depth to make up for all the more parts an ICE vehicle has so less sensors at all the spots means you need a lot of knowledge and some trail and error to pick out what's really wrong. EVs are simpler and therefore diagnostics today really already do enough.
They will arrive for sure. There is a thriving industry of independents who like ICE before it, will help hapless customers avoid the stealership model.
The £5k cost to repair the RR was just for a hybrid battery. The repair price for a full BEV battery repair would be considerably higher. It's still considerably cheaper to replace individual components on an ICE car and also the infrastructure and expertise is widely available.
er, nope. Because a "cell" is a Cell and a "module" is a module, the only difference is the number installed in the vehicle. And with a PHEV and there relatively small capacities, each module gets worked a LOT harder and experiences a deeper DoD than for a full EV!
@@maxtorque2277 Full BEV batteries are far more difficult to access than on a Hybrid. A Hybrid battery can probably be accessed without taking it out of the car, a BEV battery would have to be removed. As a result, labour charges and testing would be at least double.
Did you not watch the video? A Tesla repair (full BEV) was around the same price as the hybrid battery. A battery pack is made up of individual cells/modules…it’s just how many that determine the overall size.
Fabulous series, Rory, and shows that batteries don't degrade as much as people fear. However that car was atypical. It would have been interesting to know: 1. What the average degradation is 2. What caused that car to be better? Was it the type of use? Or how it was charged? Also, repairing a battery is only the solution if something is damaged. With battery degradation, surely all cells will (roughly) degrade equally and so when it degrades to the point of being not fit for your purpose, the only solution is a full replacement. Which is also true of ICE cars, admittedly. Very interesting that charging performance degrades too. So there's kind of a double whammy there: need to charge more often and it'll take longer. However on the plus side, I fully understand your higher level of confidence in driving a high mileage EV rather than an ICE. I think I'd be the same knowing just how many bits can go wrong on a liquid fuelled car. There's a reason they hide everything in the engine bay under plastic these days.😂
@@GF-mf7ml, so instead of paying 5k to get a working car with controlled battery pack you pay 10k to get a car with unknown history and (mostly) unknown battery condition? Yeah, sounds reasonable... I ALWAYS repair my cars and try to keep them as long as I am just fed up with the platform. If the engine or transmission fail I repair them instead of scrapping the car and getting a new used one. Maybe the new used one will crap out the next day and what do I do then? Buy another one? If I do a full engine overhaul with new water pump, fuel pumps, injectors, plugs, pulleys, chains etc I know it will be basically as good as new for a loooong time. Costs a ton of money for an old car but if it works brilliantly after that then fine by me.
@@andrewm190E I have a 16 year old N/A N53 E92. New injectors were over 2k, also decided that probably some other moving parts will need replacement soon since it was nearing 180k so swapped other stuff as well. Put over 4k into engine maintenance/rebuild. So IMO 5k for a revamped battery is not a other worldly amount if you get back the range and have some kind of warranty also for the repaired pack.
They know they're on to a winner because the average time that someone owns a car before they replace it has traditionally been six years. The average time before the vehicle is scrapped is twelve years. With motors and batteries being so reliable (and getting moreso all the time) they can be confident that a lifetime warranty is a safe bet. Other concerns will prompt a change of car before the battery does. Just look at the Tesla Model S P85. It was supplied with lifetime free charging and 12 years later people are still running them and getting free charging with no sign that the car is about to die.
![Tesla Taxi FULL HEALTH CHECK: Is The Battery RUINED After 430,000 Miles? [Episode 4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/doAcNVuTnXU/mqdefault.jpg)
![Tesla Taxi FULL HEALTH CHECK: Is The Battery RUINED After 430,000 Miles? [Episode 4]](/img/tr.png)
![Are Used Electric Cars Much Worse Than New Ones? [Episode 3] | 4K](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/X7Ubex4KJrs/mqdefault.jpg)
This, is why you're the best Rory. Direct and precise information from a professional mechanic in basic and layman terms. Big up.
Absolutely agree. Thank you Rory.
He's not a 'mechanic'. At best he's an auto electrician...
@@LoremIpsum1970 there’s always one isn’t there lol, “erm actually🥸👆”
@@LoremIpsum1970 stop talking nonsense. Google Cedar Garage Ltd, they do mechanical repairs, plus ev repairs.
@@pgtips1199, thank you.
That was really insightful. In fact Kevin blew me away with his great explanation of EV repair. We need way more straight talking highly knowledgeable EV mechanics out there to give people confidence that EVs aren't a scary black box of failures, there is a real lack of knowledge, even in the car community. In fact give that man a job, he needs an Autotrader slot to get the world up to speed on EV repair and whats happening in the real world, far away from the fake world of dealers, company cars and warranty. Dude was a legend!
He's not a 'mechanic'. At best he's an auto electrician... He does repairs, so asking him how many he replaces makes no sense, really, as that's what manufacturers do as it's quicker and more cost-effective compared with the time, space, parts and expertise needed to do repairs/refurbs. Yes, this is a carefully worded, dumbed-down report for the layman and those that don't want to do the research.
@@DavidSmith-rk7tf great service but if insurance companies don't start using them we will still see EVs written off because of a scratched battery casing. If such repairs were within £5k that would keep many cars on the road.
@@LoremIpsum1970 It takes less than 1 minute to look up the name of the garage and see that they don't only do EVs. This person is in fact a mechanic.
@@DavidSmith-rk7tf biggest issue there is training of techs
At the moment there is a big tech shortage, not just for EVs, but the car industry as a whole
The car industry has been behind for a long time, training standards are poor, where I got trained for the first couple years, the teachers would pretty much do the students assignments/ tests for them, as they got pay/funding for the amount of students that passed, so if they hit/exceed the quota, they get more money = bonus, they eventually got shut down I'm COVID after being found out, but as a result, thousands of people got engineering and vehicle technician degress that didn't have no clue what they were doing, and after working at several garages and getting work from other garages, it really shows how poor the over all knowledge is and quality
Also, one of the biggest issues, pay
I currently am on minimum wage, I do servicing, repairs, clutches, engine swaps etc, I buy all my own tools, and I'm currently looking for a different career, as all other garages are the same except main dealers which have unrealistic expectations or just outright lie about what to expect, they may say you'll get 35k a year, but 5k of that is bonuses if you hit targets, and the conditions and work load are brutal, I'm 26, my back aches, I have an issue with a old injury from a ruptured abdomen, my shoulders and wrists ache, and I have nothing to show, I'm struggling to get by
So why would anyone who sees the harsh working conditions and work load, intense levels of experience and knowledge required, and piss poor pay and paying for your own tools, want to do the job, when even basic jobs will pay you more?
The industry needs major changes before anything can truly progress, because as you see in this video, all these EVs are about, but there's fuck all people who can fix them, and no one wants to be trained up to do the job
@@ProXcaliber We're both wrong: they're called "Autocare Technicians" these days, they even get a certificate, though from looking at the services Cedar Electric offer, there's f*ck all that needs an experienced mechanic tbh, I guess you looked at the services?
It's why my local garage are planning to wind down and close, they don't touch electrics, can't afford the EV training and equipment, and can't make enough doing EV MoTs...
Props to the Porsche dealership recommending these guys for the customer. Fairplay to them
For those curious... with as bad of short term memory as me, ha! 9:54
Fantastic series Rory. It’s done a lot to discredit a lot of the misconceptions around EVs.
I’d have more faith in a 200k mile EV than a 200k mile ICE car.
well clearly you dont know cars well if you noticed theres many cars still on the road with 200k plus long as you service it any car will last even 500k even higher then that i sold my picanto 1.1 with 140k i brought it with 60k and still on the road when i sold it 2yrs ago
@@watchanything-c7r I know cars fairly well, which is why I know how much Turbos, DMF/Clutches, EGR Valves, DPF’s, timing chains etc etc cost to fix. Manufacturers don’t build cars to do 200k+ miles anymore, why would they?
@@watchanything-c7r They didn't say that an ICE car can't last that long, they just said that they would trust an EV with 200k miles more than an ICE car with 200k miles.
@@watchanything-c7r That's the exception rather than the rule; most cars are scrapped at 14 y/o with an average of 130-140k miles.
@@watchanything-c7r 140k eh? only another 290k to go then to catch up. less than 30% through the race and you are already calling it a winner?
Facts are that most dealerships dont have the facilities or staff training to deal with EV battery repairs or finance installing all the necessary safety kit so they go for a full battery swap.
It relates to all aspects of maintenance provided by dealerships. It's not just about facilities or staff. They don't make money on parts being refurbished but always want to sell new and replace. The more the better even if it's unnecessary...
That's why when the warranty expires no one visits them anymore...
@@exs3574Also component level repair is often difficult to warranty unless you do it constantly.
Not YET. But doesn't take much vision to see that they all will have in future.
@@barneyrubble9309 Simpler than you might think, actually. No, you don’t unleash a novice on a battery swap, and yes, you need a special battery lift and safety equipment to isolate the pack. The actual process for my Volvo has a book time of 1.4 hours, and the manufacturer provides training videos and full diagnostics. So definitely quicker than engine or transmission replacement. Dealers are reluctantly getting up to speed, knowing that they won’t make the money from maintaining an EV that they do from ICE. And I imagine that specialist companies as well as manufacturers will get into the business of refurbishing batteries and electronics so the prices will moderate, but I don’t expect things to ever be bargain basement cheap. And for what it’s worth to the die-hard ICE fans, despite 90%+ of new car sales being EV in Norway, 70% of cars on the road are still ICE. And let’s not forget that this was about changing a battery after how many miles?
@@davidcottrell570 Not a single manufacturer is willing to share those training videos or tools for a reasonable price. And they make it very hard for third parties to repair or replace the battery, as their software is required to program the battery. Clearly the manufacturers care more about profits than the environment.
10 year old Prius taxi drivers do not take them to Toyota, they take them to a backstreet garage, every town has one. This will be where we will take evs that are out of warranty
Yep, this ‘every EV will cost £20k to repair’ stuff is nonsense.
We already have two very nice shops in my city that work on EV's and batteries and I don't live in a big city. As time goes on they will be everywhere.
I know a guy locally that rebuilds batteries. He helped me build a charger for my electric motorcycle. It was $600 to fix my ex's Prius battery. This is not a thing I'm worried about.
Prius has a small battery. Although relatively the price tag for new replacement is huge.
My Prius battery on my 12 year old CT200H Lexus was replaced for £710 by a specialist. (Japanese reconditioned rack). This is Malaysia where mechanics are great value and knowledgable.
I got a used 2021 Tesla model 3 for $17k last month. Three weeks later, battery failed. Car had 65k miles. Tesla replaced it with a brand new 2024 LFP battery and it gave me 100 more miles than the car I bought. They gave me new upgraded suspensions and tire alignment. I did not have to pay a dime. I can now enjoy traveling much farther distances.
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EDIT: because I keep getting alerts with all the new comments - the LFP battery still works great. No, I don't have any affiliation with Tesla. Just sharing my experience. Do your research cause if you're getting used, get low enough mileage so your warranties are not expired. The battery is hit or miss. Let me tell you, I was stressed so much the first month I had the car because my battery was draining like crazy. I could only do one trip a day and I would lose 15% just idling in a parking lot for 30 minutes. If there wasn't a total battery failure, I would have been stuck with this or perhaps it would have been a fight to convince Tesla there is a problem. Looking back, I got very lucky but it was a very risky situation. So if you're looking to buy one, run every test you need to regarding the car's battery health. And then do everything to maintain the battery's good health.
@@Greatpics222 epic!
The upgraded suspension is because the new LFP battery is a lot heavier than your failed NMC pack. Suspension has to be adapted to the higher weight. And Tesla replaces the old, 44 kWh NMC packs with newer, 60 kWh LFP's because their supplier doesn't build the old small NMC pack anymore - 60 kWh of LFP being cheaper to build than 44 kWh of NMC.
Now THAT’S a win!
how come they replaced your used battery for free? Does the warranty carry over when buying used? That's awesome though! Congrats!
@@kriskale Battery warranty is 8 years
I am a fan of EVs but I must say I learned a lot from this video series, most importantly that batteries can be repaired not just exchanged for new ones. Thank you.
Really interesting video. Having just dipped my toes in with a plug in hybrid im really enjoying driving on ev for most of our driving. Not to mention im already saving a fortune on fuel. I was blown away that a tesla is still performing strongly at such high mileage.
First! Thanks Rory for being the best host, hand down
I like this dude. Nice to know we still have independent experts around in the UK.
independent experts and backstreet garages will soon be banned to work on your EV, the same as only qualified Gas Safe registered engineers can carry a Gas repair in your home.
@@robertanton1862 Wont all mechanics who are jobless get a certificate ?
@@ironman8257 yes, of course,
but because the technology is so advanced, so will the training be for a hefty price of: ££££££
How many will be able to afford it?
And then, they will pass their certification fees onto EV owners.
You go today to a specialized ICE garage, they will charge you an arm and a leg to cover the training of their staff.
You go to a backstreet ICE garage where the mechanic learnt how to fix a car on his uncle car, he will not charge you a dime for his training, and so his fees are much lower.
That's why so many people can afford ICE cars today.
How many people will afford EV cars in the future, when half the price you pay for repair-or-maintenance will go towards training and certification?
This battery replacement argument is foolish. Have you all priced out an engine replacement on a 50k car? My Audi is about 25k to replace.
Thats because its an Audi. People are comparing to a Civic or a Corolla
@@PsychedMedia try find someone who swaps an engine under 10k.
what car have you got that costs half the list price to swap an engine? 😂😂 short blocks for most common hatchbacks are a few grand and the same again for fitting
@@PsychedMedia and thats the problem when a lot of people make comparisons to electric cars. They compare the reliability of an EV against a Toyota. The cost of maintanence against a Honda. The performance against a Lambo. The fact is that you can't get the best of all worlds anywhere.
@@adamspencer95a few grand plus a few grand for work is already more than 5k. I doubt you could rebuild even a 4 pot VW Golf engine for 5k
As an EV owner for almost 3 years now, thank you for this video. Great work!
Seen this car pottering about in its home town of Chesterfield today - nice to see it on the road after watching this series 👌🏻
I hope this video enlightens a lot of people who were scared to buy electric. I've had electric for 4 years and I absolutely love it.
I’ve had ICE vehicles for decades and love them, don’t see why I need to think about EVs if I prefer my ICE vehicles.
@@knight2425 Reminds me of my mother in-law. Why do I need a smartphone when this flip phone works just fine? I don't care whether you buy EV or not, but if everyone followed this logic, technology would never progress.
@@Ryan-ff2db so your saying that modern ICE vehicles are the same as outdated flip phones? Pretty poor comparison and what rubbish technology wouldn’t progress
@@knight2425You will buy an EV in the future. Just 15 years after everybody else. You’ll be quietly surprised about how good it is.
@@hughmarcus1 I don’t doubt they are good but not buying an EV, I love my ICE vehicles and they are more engaging to drive
Spot on Rory, you have got those numbers out there for everyone to understand. If circa £5K looks like the going rate to do a repair, about twice the value of my wife's car, then hmm I am sure I am not going to rush into EVs for a while. Well done. Hopefully things will get better, but it is going to take a long time, if ever, for things to get realistically cheap.
Keep in mind that this is after 400k miles, and that this vehicle was used and abused as a taxi during its usage. If used normally, this car likely could easily reach more than 500k miles and see a decade or more of use before even needing to consider that 5k repair.
Excellent video as always. Here is another example, last year Canadian guy in British Columbia was quotes almost 60,000 Canadian dollars to replace the battery in his Ioniq 5 because of under carriage scratches.
What worries me even more is the hybrid vehicles. Effectively you have double trouble and ICE engine and a battery to maintain .😮
There's been aftermarket battery sources for hybrids for years now which are quite affordable. Per the ICE, as long as it is well-maintained (e.g. oil changes), it will more than likely outlast an ICE on a petrol-only car. I have two friends with Prius's that lasted over 200,000 miles.
The batteries will last much longer on hybrids because of just how it is used.
Lexus hybrids are not considered ‘high mileage’ until 250,000 miles. Hybrid engines last longer because the ICE engine and the electric motor share the wear and tear. They do need regular maintenance like any car.
@@hunterfunter47 the pure EV does not need so much maintenance.
@@madmcadder4536 You said you were worried about hybrid vehicles, so I dealt with that. My answer addressed your worry directly. More taxi drivers use hybrids than EVs. That’s a clue to their reliability and high mileage capability.
A great review Rory as always, well done and thank you. We sold our 8 year old first gen Mercedes B Class EV with 65k, only lost £3k over five years, it was still returning the same range (100 miles) as when we bought it second hand with 15k and was still a joy to drive, just had a poor range in the mountains where we live and slow charging and we wanted a more modern EV. We replaced it with a SMART #1 which was cheaper and better (in our view) than any comparably priced European made EV. A year later we are still happy with our choice and will never go back to driving cancer inducing diesel ICE or petrol. Too many critics out there that haven’t actually lived with an EV for a reasonable time to make a valid judgement and therefore scaremonger the public. We had numerous warranty claims on our previous ICE cars and some very hefty bills, so it is a false claim against having EVs as there are simply less parts to go wrong!
@@TJ-mb4qs can you advise what EV you ended up getting and currently still like?
@@Godsgraceish As I said, Smart #1
Just replaced my 2005 ford mondeo 1.8 petrol had 116k miles on the clock.went for a tesla model3 2021..if I get 19years out of it like the ford I'm well happy...o tesla comes with 100k miles or 8 year what ever comes first warranty aswell .electric for the win!
Driving experience must felt like a step into future.
Need more videos of this kind and great to know companies like Cedar are out there.
People complain about £5k (and thats for a Tesla module), but how many wet belts are causing replacement motors to be scrapped out?
That tesla has covered HALF A MILLION MILES and still has almost 200mile range.
A refurb for an EcoBoom engine for a Ford won't cost you £5k!
No it wont do 190 miles on a single charge with 72% of battery health remaining. You shouldn't be charging it above 80% and should not let it drop below 20%. So you actually have only 60% of the 190 miles remaining, which is just 114 miles. So it's become a town runabout!
@@grahamdyke6612id still take the Tesla and the performance and the half million miles over any ICE. And remember, almost every EV owner has owned an ICE. And the GAS SAVINGS would more than cover that 5k. I save ~2k per year on my Tesla. I’ve already saved enough to pay for a new battery.
It's used as an airport run taxi. It has SC1 free supercharger for life.
It's the toughest life you could imagine for ev. @@grahamdyke6612
@@shou635I’d still keep my high performance ICE vehicle over an EV any day
Im calling garbage that this car is original at all, this whole thing stinks to talk people into EVs. Older Teslas had so many issues with motors and batteries failing that its highly unlikely all original
Thank you Rory for this-and thank you Kevin for creating this gap business in the channel. I wish you had an operation in Salt Lake City ;-)
The real question for me, is really how often do batteries/cells fail? I ask this as my next car-I hope- will be an EV (R1T). Of all my friends who drive EVs (20%) there are no reports of failure, just happiness.
So the conclusion for this video: An independent specialist is going to be cheaper than going to a main dealer. So business as usual then.
And when it comes to battery replacements, I try to keep in mind that the battery is the equivalent to an ICE's engine; ie the component that generates the motive power for the final drive. A replacement engine is always the big ticket item in an ICE so I'm going to guess the prices are going to be similar.
pretty much, with chance of failure being around the same level but an ice engine usually degrades in performance linearly with EVs being more step by step but each step beyond the top one really means a repair is necessary.
The battery is the source of fuel like petrol. The electric motor is the ICE equivalent. The battery does not generate power, it stores it.
@@withoutwroeirs Technically speaking, yes you are correct, but that misses my point in trying to set equivalents for ease of comparison in terms of mechanic time and complexity.
@@deaks25 I don't know how two different functions can be considered as equivalent. There been more battery changes than ICE engine changes in the short life of the EV industry, but no alarm bells are ringing.
@@withoutwroeirs Their importance, the price, the regularity with which you should be thinking about replacing them.
A brilliant series! Can’t believe there aren’t more, similar offerings.
Nice to see an all original TESLA go the distance. I have a 2017 Model S with only 130,000km
What’s the status of your battery, original size kw/h and now seven years later?
@@905andersson mine is @470.000km , battery is @95%, rebuilt once.
@@Janez-h1e how much $ was the rebuild?
@@905andersson It was 5000€, including a re-insulating a motor.
Lol 5k
Thanks Rory for highlighting and sharing especially these days as cars should not be chucked away especially when they used to last very long if looked after and if we honest unloved when we were younger
Rory is a Ev man. He was before he appeared on Topgear and talked about Evs on the show. My friend paid 3k for his 2014 Nissan Leaf and that is thanks to you Rory. Rory Can you put a list of every car you have owned since you passed your test to the present day as this would give us a idea of car taste.
Lovely to watch. Feels like journalism again. Beautiful.
What would be awesome, is, if you could not just replace the battery, but when you do so upgrade it.
Imagine taking a 60 kWh car to 85 kWh because of new battery technology.
It’s like an engine swap for your car , but better :)
that is being done -in Australia by OzElectric Vehicles for Mitsubishis Outlander PHEVS and the IMIEV...also Nissan Leafs
The problem is that battery packs themselves aren't always guaranteed to fit into different models. This is due to the fact that there isn't really a standardized battery design. I'm sure in the future this might become much more common, but for now I think the best route is to just make better batteries in general.
Thing is an engine swap doesnt cost over 20 K
@@davidlewis4399 if you paid attention to the video, you can see that a battery swap doesn’t either…
And yes, if you do a new engine, it might very easily cost you 20k, its just that nobody does, because why would you?
Tesla actually has done this with several models, the Model S and X in particular even got this badge change and the model change in the infotainment system to match.
Also when we are 10 years down the road, its likely for the same physical volume of a battery today you'll probably only need 70% or less of the same space for the same amount of power as battery tech gets better and better.
Skillset nails it - many mechanics wouldn’t have a clue with electronics so modular replacements are the “easy” options - same as brake calipers etc being replaced when refurb would be a better option. Same problem in the heat pump industry where the average gas fitter doesn’t have the skillset to transition easily to fitting heat pumps…
Hang on... a replacement *hybrid* battery is ~22k, but a replacement BEV battery is ~14k... the Hybrid typically only has a 10-15kWh battery (compared to e.g. 75kWh for the Tesla)... so why the heck is it so much more expensive? It's certainly not the cost of the cells (new cells are ~$50/kWh... even at $100/kWh that would only be $7,500 for a Tesla, or $1,000 - $1,500 for the Hybrid... apologies for using dollar-values, but that's the currency cells are quoted in, from what I've seen).
Either way, it's clear automakers are trying to take people to the cleaners with those hybrid pack-prices.
The example in the video is for a Range Rover, so not the cheapest brand
@@David_Cabrita Yus, but the BMW hybrid price was similar... and that vehicle is in the same ballpark as the Tesla...
The Tesla battery was a refurbished unit, the others were new batteries. Tesla offer a battery exchange where they take and refurbish your old battery. Much like if you bought a reconditioned engine from a specialist verses a new one from the manufacturer.
@@kcebliks Ahh - good point on the refurbished Tesla pack.
Even being refurbished the Tesla price is really good compared to other manufacturers.
love this series, and love my 2013 Model S P85
Yes all mechanics should be put through that training
By far the best series on long term EV battery health and maintenance, well done Rory and team 👍
Had a 7yo Honda CRV 1.6d engine go at 70k miles, full Honda service history and it wrote the car off. Honda wanted £13k to replace.
That is insane! I had a 2021 Acura RDX (I believe it uses the same engine as the Civic Type R) and it started having issues around 30k to 40k. I ended up getting rid of the car and bought an EV to replace it just this year, and I can't say I regret my decision.
Those battery packs don't look quite so expensive now.
I got a honda jazz petrol with 325k miles on the same engine still going strong ...why would i want an EV... Madness
@@waynekerrr9027 congratulations
@@ianjames3078 your welcome
This was a great set of videos, and something that should reassure used EV buyers. It should be noted, that apart from some of the old, unmanaged batteries of the past, most EVs will never need battery repair in their lives. But if they do, then it isn't going to break the bank.
I think that maybe the biggest weakness will be the screen and software behind it will get old before the end of the life of the car, but this would also apply to ICE cars, that also rely on similar hardware and software.
Evs are cheap second hand. 15 to 20k buys you a low mileage second hand one. I would do that thanks. I have done that with petrol cars. My car had a fault, I was honest and told the dealer and part exchanged it. I had a 500Sl Mercedes with engine faults and changed it for a 320 Clk and all is good. You can always change your car. It does not have to cost that much. A Ev with 90000 miles on the clock I would change for a 3 year old one with 30k on the clock.15 to 20k to do it all. Yes please. Then I get a car with relatively new suspension, steering and running gear as well. Yes please!
Great series about old Teslas from AutoTrader! I Bought 2017 Model S with 135.000 km 1.5 year ago after owning i3rex and i3S for 5 years, I like this car a lot, not much has gone wrong with it so far, mostly typical maintenance stuff. Not afraid of it and prepared for eventual battery repair that's all, same as I would have to be ready to change the engine or gearbox in one of my petrol BMWs in the past. Most people these days seem to be going for new EVs with PCPs, don't want to deal with issues, and replace it with another/different car 3 years later.
Interesting - I bought a 100D from Autotrader last December with similar mileage. I've put 20K miles on it so far and my max range bounces between 306 and 310. What's your range?
@@ElMistroFeroz My one is 75D, difficult to compare range. Usually around 310km mixed driving in good weather(~20 deg.C), mild winter ~240km on full charge.
I would love to see some statistics on miles driven between mechanical faliure on the average ICE car vs miles driven between battery or drivetrain failure on an EV with associated ave repair costs for each. Having owned both I suspect electric cars will win over as they are much simpler and have less moving parts. Dealerships generally do not like selling electric cars because they know they will not be back for services and they are less likely to go wrong.
Much needed, honest coverage. Great series!
2000€ for my 530e for 3 new cells from BMW. Battery capacity went up from 7.4kw(when new) to 9kw. Not bad at all considering also a 2 year warranty on the new cells.
What is the year and mileage?
Good review as usual Rory. My wife has a 2020 530e. She has a BMW warranty that covers the electric battery and other high end electric component's specifically. Its not expensive. If your gonna buy electric cars you need to protect against big ticket items or your asking for troubles.
So let me get this right.
Dealer replaces your battery, hits you for 15-20k for the privilege.
Takes your battery, fixes it for probably a few K, then I imagine reuses that and charges another customer 10-15k for a refurbed unit ?
So they basically double dip.
EVs have so many fewer parts that dealers are losing money compared to ICE repairs. So they charge so much to make up for losses
@@w1ldwesty you’ve missed the point, they repair your battery pack with replacement parts or modules.
@@GuyFerguson I was refering to the main dealers not the repair outfit in the video. If I had an EV I'd take it to these guys to get fixed,
It seems if you go to a main dealer they can't fix the battery on site so they hit you for a new battery, take your old one and repair it offsite and then more than likley re-sell it.
@GuyFerguson. Nope - you have. Re read the comment...
@@w1ldwesty You are correct, at least according to this video. I would agree that taking it to a third party to get it repaired instead of replaced is a more cost-effective option. However, I'm assuming that having a brand-new replacement would also be a nice option if you want the original range of the vehicle back and likely have the original warranty back as well. Personally, if I know I've owned the car for say 10 years, and I want to keep it for longer, I would not mind paying the premium to get back the original range of the car. But that also assumes that battery technology hasn't improved in that time span, which likely also wouldn't be the case.
Rory’s Autotrader is top notch real informative stuff 👏🏾
The most tangible benefit I can see when it comes to EV vs ICE is that, the fingers of the EV mechanics are very clean 09:02.
Very handy if they're also doing heated seat repairs to someone's car...
Because of course, EVs don't have suspension or brakes that get dirty. 🙄
@@clivereid That makes the hands oily?
@dogsbodyish8403 Oils, grease, brake dust, road grime...all present on and in suspension and drivetrain components of EVs just the same as in ICE cars. A good mechanic / technician would clean themselves up before touching a car's interior etc. - I do.
@@clivereid True, but routine maintenance (if needed) doesn't involve the 'orrible engine oil change. Not to mention lack of such items as timing chains, wet belts, camshafts, turbos etc.
Brilliant mini series with an eye opening result. Thanks Rory & Autotrader 🙌🏻
Remember, most manufacturers offer 8 years 100,000 miles warranty.
Not Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Chevy, or Chrysler. What manufacturers are you talking about? Tesla has 8 years on the drivetrain only.
(EDIT) I’m wrong. I was talking about ICE powertrain warranties. Sorry
That's what makes the battery life naysayers so dumb. They think manufacturers sell EV owners a car with a battery that won't last four years when it's guaranteed for twice that long. If Jeremy Clarkson was telling the truth then all EV owners would get free replacement batteries under warranty for all eternity. That would make the manufacturers as dumb as the naysayers.
@@shwndhHyundai and Kia have entered the chat, with a vengeance
I luv ❤ my Hyundai and Kia BEV!!!
@@shwndh they do in the UE where it's by law to provide 160.000km or 8 years
I just saw this Model S in Manchester on M60 motorway. Had to come back to this video to double check number plate that it was same model S. Going strong with more miles adding on. Had my model 3 for 2,5 years and can’t praise it enough. Most economical car I ever owned especially with 7p per kW on octopus tariff.
FYI a brand new BMW b58b30a short block lists for £10,987.00
Greetings from SoCal, surrounded by thousands of Tesla❤
Ev suks battery chemistry a mistery the gauge tells you whatever it want to tell you how can you verify it is true or not? You cant see in the gas tank there is no gas tank
Think I'll keep doing those oil changes every 5K kms.
The battery health after such insane mileage is simply amazing
I’ve been driving for over 30 years and I have not done that many miles across all cars combined (6-7)
I love these series for Tesla model S and high mileage Teslas
That was a really helpful episode. I have googled this very question and it’s frustrating how online the reply you get to this very reasonable question is “don’t worry, EV batteries don’t die” which is total BS. This episode, however, has answered all of my questions in plenty of detail.
It’s not just the charging and repair infrastructure that’s lacking, so is the third party service infrastructure. There just isn’t enough HEVRA accredited garages out there to do simple servicing, and the garages around me won’t even come out and look at it - one wouldn’t even MOT it. The only choices I had here in the lakes was a 100 mile round trip to a main dealer, or Cleevely’s mobile. I obviously went with the second option, which to be fair I’d probably of done anyway even if the dealership was closer, better to have experienced professionals look after your car, than one that may only see an EV very occasionally.
Just buy one that doesn't need servicing, like a Tesla model 3. Cabin filters every 2 years, about £40 all in as a suggestion 🤷♂️
This is an industry in its infancy. They’ve only been around 10 years
This is such a great series!! Entertaining and informative at the same time, especially as more used EVs are coming into the market and prices are dropping like a rock for them. Thanks for this!
Really need more independent shops for electric cars. My Taycan had a battery repair not replacement and that was $42k. Right now repairing electric cars, at least in the states, relies on the manufacture and their absurd pricing.
Who paid that?
That’s Porsche for you.
To be fair, it is a Porsche. But I get where you're coming from and totally agree that more independent shops and more widely available parts for EVs would be amazing. This would likely also help bring insurance costs down and make throwing away an EV after an accident a thing of the past.
Awesome series! Thanks for sharing the reality of EV's that isn't commonly known.
My 9 Yr old / 170,000 Outlander Phev battery just had a cell go down (which was likely due to me missing fact the AC needed regassing).
I could have DIY repaired for £30 (yes, thirty) pounds with a single cell replacement, but actually upgraded to a later pack with low miles / higher rated capacity for £1300.
If you can do a clutch, you can do battery work: just make sure you understand and respect the safety side. The physical work is straighforward (and nice and clean!).
Hi, who is replacing cells on Outlander Phevs? I've got a 2016 that has a supposed battery health 64% last time I checked. Manage to get around 20 miles during warmer days and a little less during winter.
great service for the car community
I've got a 2016 BMW 330e and it's lost 50% of it's battery range. I want to get it repaired but I cannot justify spending 5k on it. Better to just run the car on petrol even if it's less efficient. I'm still saving on road tax (£0) and I mostly do motorway miles. Or is it worth me looking into it?
Replace it, bruh.
Have you looked at used battery prices? A few complete packs for plug in hybrids which I looked at were about £1200 or so.
If you mainly do motorway miles why would you get a hybrid over a diesel in the first place?
@@Birmingham_racing of course fuel savings and performance most likely.
if you do mostly motorway miles keep it like this. It will be very hard to get your money back in fuel savings. You still have 50% range so drive it like a normal hybrid . For 5k you can buy 3500l fuel :))
Really great series, loved every episode
You all also have to consider the fact that year-to-year maintenance for an EV is drastically reduced, especially if you avoid going to the dealership out of warranty. The small costs of ICE vehicles adds up over time too, you just don't think about it. My 20 year old grand Cherokee drove fine and was fairly reliable, but I still spent plenty of money across the board with replacement parts and my car was one of the cheaper cars to source and repair. It may not break even because of battery costs but for the insane repairs for all new cars, its better than you think.
My brand new Audi came with 5 years free servicing so maintenance costs are very small. People that do well with cars know when to buy them and when to sell them which means they lose very little with depreciation and if you buy correctly you can sell cars for what you paid or even more which I’ve never seen with an EV.
@@knight2425, as EVs have scaled I'm not seeing what I used to do. Buy and run an EV for 2 years, put 15k miles on it and sell it for what I paid. I did this with a Renault Zoe. Now due to large fleets used values are down. But it's great if you want a used EV. Bargains galore 😊
@@HairyCheese I bought an RS3, has 5 year warranty and 5 years free servicing, will sell it soon for a new one and get close to if not all my money back and it will be sold with 3 year warranty and free servicing, don’t know of any EVs that could have done that for me.
@@knight2425 EVs are currently a tech product, and as such, once the new ones are out, the old ones drop in value drastically. Another reason is due to how quickly they improve, and not just on the feature set alone.
@@ProXcaliber but that depreciation and the size of it is a huge turn off for EVs
nice that those services are slowly getting available and cost effective
Battery repair is still more than I'd ever pay for a car in the first place
and that's what gonna kill the EV market
A nieghbour of mine has an 8yr old Jag, new engine alone is 10k
Excellent report. There is hope rather than just replacing the entire EV battery.
Keep in mind that’s 5k now. That number may get even cheaper in the future(factoring in inflation).
Thank you for this series of episodes on this high mileage EV.
The first question you need to ask, how many people will really drive their vehicles, much less an EV to 200k miles, then, 300k miles, then 400k miles? If that's me, just buy another new one because it would have paid for itself more than once already.
Good call just get a new EV and landfill the old one
@@davidlewis4399landfill? The battery and metals recyclers are practically begging for these to hit EOL, every metal in an EV is fully recyclable and reusable. EVs don't make it to the landfill, its full of desired metals.
I get your point but when I have free supercharging on my old model s, I am keen to keep this saving so for me it will be battery repairs for as long as I can get them unless a similar car is presented with a recent battery swap or repair at the right price that at 6k for a repair is unlikely.
@@davidlewis4399 Which is precisely what happens to every Internal Combustion Car that was ever built. So your point is what exactly?
2018 model 3 long range rwd with 145k here and going strong lol and plan to keep driving it as long as the vehicle and battery continue to hold up. Been a great reliable car for me and my last vehicle was a 2019 Lexus ES300h
Great insights, thanks TOY, this is what keeping people away from EV, the cost on of repair.
Repair businesses always appear where needed but they do lag behind the need. They flourish where new items are either unavailable or unaffordable. In Cuba for example American cars of the 50s and 60s were still going long after the same models had disappeared in the US. Battery cell format and chemistry is changing at a very rapid pace, and although some pack formats might be retrofitted with present-day cell types, the move to structural packs will make that harder, if not impossible. I suggest that EVs can serve well both affluent and poor countries: latest and greatest for the former, and standardised packs in utilitarian, endlessly renewable, vehicles for the latter. The repair businesses that will disappear are the dealerships, although that worst-of-all worlds, the hybrid, should keep them going for a while ...
In theory IF new replacement cells are same voltage and minimum have same capacity it must be a easy task to keep battery pack infinitely repairable.
What a good informative video by Rory. I still wished you'd put the old S against a new Y or something with 800V architecture. My I-Pace is the same from 2018 to 2024 except the entertainment system changed.
I don’t think in 40 years of driving I’ve done 430000 miles. So at 70 years of age I’m never going to wear out my Tesla model Y.
Except the battery degrades just even sitting there
@@wsu8568 no they don't. Do your research Mr Diesel Troll. Oh and by the way, diesel sitting in a tank will also go off pretty quickly (look up diesel polishing). And Petrol goes bad too. So what?
@@ouethojlkjn He’s right that there is some component of calendar aging in the battery lifecycle. But for many modern batteries, the calendar aging aspect could be well over a decade before it’s an issue, so far out that we don’t even have good data on it yet.
Hasn't the Tesla with more miles ever changed like 4 motors and 3 batteries? What was the total cost+ car cost+ maintenance cost + electricity consumption /per mile driven?
@@goldenturdZeniru The vehicle featured in this video is running on the original motor and the original battery pack. And completed 430,000 miles. So let's do the math. The total cost of replacement of battery pack is Zero and the motor was zero. Add them up and you get zero. Of course during this 430,000 miles, the Tesla will also have burned through a number of replacement exhaust systems, gearboxes, clutches, turbos, timing chains, brake pads, brake disks, engine oil, oil filters, impossible to get at oxygen sensors, high temp hoses, radiators, fuel pumps, water pumps and alternators. Just like any other car.
You absolutely changed my mind About evs. Thank you
The comparison to ICE car repairs is spot on. Just like with an internal combustion engine, EV components can be repaired or replaced as needed. The key is to have access to skilled technicians and affordable parts, which is becoming increasingly available in the EV space.
Sadly, any modern car is not really built for maintenace or repairs, not only EVs. My father in law bumped a trailer in front and smashed the headlight lens on his 2016 220d, FOUR AND A HALF GRAND LATER he got the car back! Apparently there are all sorts of other gubbins and sensors and wires and whatnot plus a lick of paint and a buff up.
@@ouethojlkjn You're absolutely right about the high cost of repairs, especially for modern cars with complex electronics and safety systems. It's no secret that traditional automakers make a significant portion of their profits from their parts business, serving the existing fleet.
Great content. About time someone busted all the b.s myths about battery life and repair costs. I've been in numerous debates with people harping on about the same thing. I've always said it is far more expensive to replace an ICE unit than changing modules in a Battery pack. Even a few years ago a normal engine would be upwards of £10k for a run of the mill mass produced car/van. And trust me those things go bang a hell of a lot more frequently than a Battery pack...
I have driven my Tesla model S over 130000 miles ,and still as good as the day I picked it up .
Yup! Over 120k miles with mine and still almost good as new. Range dropped a bit but not enough to notice with actual use.
Tesla are sneaky, it's been proven that they have a very large buffer in the battery pack with many over the years being able to unlock extra capacity for a fee. With the over the air updates they can easily tell the software to unlock some of that extra capacity to hide the degradation.
Great video. It's always good to see people giving us lemonade.
£5k is a lot cheaper to repair that to buy a new battery, but it's still a lot of cash and then nothing to say another module won't fail. Especially bad for people on lower incomes I should think.
Not just lower incomes, the vast majority of cars out there are over 10 years old and killed by a £5000 repair.
I think a £5k repair on a 400k mile car = scrap yard in reality. It had an amazing run, but it's the equivalent of a head gasket going on a super high milage ICE car
Ok, but that money you spend on battery repair/replacement is outstandingly less then what you will spend on gas in an internal combustion vehicle. My father and I have done the math and for our last gas car (a 2016 Subaru outback) we would spend 24,000 dollars on gas over the lifetime of the vehicle. However our Tesla model Y would be 5000 dollars on electricity. So that leaves you ahead $19,000 from gas alone not to mention not doing oil changes and other small repairs. The EV package is way better than anyone gives it credit for.
@@Jack-b7e1h Did you use how many kilometers Subaru?
A new cell for my 2020 Kia E Niro is £45. Its unlikely (because of the way the pack is laid out) that I'd need to replace more than 3 of them at once. It's a repair I'd tackle myself. I know I'm unusual in that, but it won't be long before the sort of specialists like existing gearbox and engine rebuild houses pop up everywhere for battery rebuilds. These guys can charge £5k at the moment, but it won't be long before basic repairs are under £500 (on cars like mine which have easy to work on batteries - not the sort of glued together packs on the latest Teslas). BTW my car is at 90k miles with 100% battety state of health.
Thanks, the information and discussion is great. This idea is also wide spread, send the vehicle to the manufacturer and pay more, versus, the mechanic down the street. As a vehicle enthusiast, gaining extra power by fine tuning different aspects is what is sought, like crossing the electrodes for twice the power, which takes the batteries out of + and - alignment.
Vote, elect ions.
Many EV’s on the road today are still under the 8 year battery warranty.
As for replacing it outside the warranty- there are refurbished batteries available for £6k-£10k. A refurbed Porsche Taycan battery is just £8k,
No one needs to spend £20k, £30k, £40k+ on a battery replacement after 8 years, for any EV !
Now see what happens if you hit something on the road and dent the battery pack which has happened a lot and requires replacement. Likewise lets see who wants to buy your used EV at the end because it dealerships dont want them and neither do private sellers. Tesla wont even warranty the battery unless its resold through them.
@@whatcouldgowrong7914 - you think the battery pack is exposed under the car 🤣
@@whatcouldgowrong7914Hey genius do most people drive those very expensive EV without having insurance? If the battery is damaged most insurance companies will not take any risk and right off the EV and give you a payout! Wow amazing!
@@SDK2006b If the outer casing is dented then the battery is damaged, this has happened numerous times already with Hyundai being the most prominent writing off the vehicle cost wise.
@@gregb1599 You seem to think insurance claims are a free ride when it drives up premiums for everyone and writes off the entire vehicle which is completely contrary to your green garbage movement. Insurance will not repair them and write off the vehicle
Great to Kev from Cedar garage. Levi’s the business head behind Cedar, Matt is the tech wizard!! Arguably one of the best gragesin the UK. After all they did win Garage of the year award 👍
My Model Y 1 year old. Now its 27.000km and we will go more kilometers. I like electri car. If you have one time a electric car, you cant turn any benzin/diesel car again...
I did. Model 3 performance, 9 months, went back to petrol.
Time, I have a random monthly round trip of up to 1500 km. There is almost no rural charging beyond level 2, and sometimes not even that. Some level 3 charging is only available at 50kW, I have spent hours charging in strip malls or gas stations. Hotels often advertise charging, only to find it’s a single level 1 or two stall, and someone is already camped out there for the night. This is time my work does not recognize, so I don’t have an extra day or two to get my work done, I have to burn my vacation time. Totally not worth it.
a little vibrations won't kill you
@@thunderbug8640 Why did you turn?
@@wj9494 Which country you are living?
Always enjoy Lenny Henry’s videos, make me feel better about buying a good used Model S Performance in RHD, thanks Lenny
I would be very careful with the Chinese BYD as their batteries are fixed together by structural glue which makes them almost impossible to repair unless it's BMS issue .. We need trained competent people to repair battery packs with spare parts available to these people I still think 5000 pounds too much for a repair
I have seen the Thai's disassembling the BYD batteries and changed them blade by blade
@@PsychedMedia I have see the Atto 3 one and they are glued in also a chinese EV tech telling people not buy BYD due to battery and rust issues
@@joedarkness808 Among many, many other problems
@@PsychedMedia Yeah me too! Thai people are resourceful and can fix most things!
@@joedarkness808 Lots of manufacturers. Chinese or not are now starting to use structural batteries, this is one of the reasons even Telsa's non LFP batteries aren't repaired at site. The same goes for a lot of modern batteries.
This is very reassuring thanks I plan on keeping my Subaru Solterra (rebadged Toyota BZ4X) for decades. We do cells as well so I'll never need to replave the pack, (maybe repair one day 30 years down the road) good to know! Great video!
the problem with module replacement is it took a long time for new battery to have a battery module failure, but replacing the failed module, you'll still be stucked with other failing modules that you don't know when they will fail, and it's soon
Knowledge and understanding as usual, seems to be a huge problem these days. People find it far to easy to just hate on something. I.c.e. cars cost a huge amount to maintain and repair compared to an ev but the facts are ignored every time.
This is a fantastic series of videos and is hugely helpful and important so well done!
£5200 is better than £14000 but it doesn’t stop the fact you can buy a whole used ICE car in good shape for that money
What?! No way in hell you're getting a good condition ICE for that price, especially not something with space for a family (i.e. not a smart car).
This is a really interesting series. Thanks Rory.
The spare parts for battery packs was interesting
Governments need to enforce right to repair.
Plenty of capable engineers and techs out there willing to learn and bring those repair prices down even further.
The biggest thing is to stop this new wave of structural batteries which make repair a lot harder for small gains otherwise.
Yep, the EU is doing this with phones. They need to do it with cars too.
Packs should be swappable using non-specialised tooling.
@@drunkenhobo8020 even if the tools are specialised they should be standardized and easily attainable and not custom parts for their battery packs.
A Good balanced article well done Rory
Worth noting that the BIG difference in cost between repairing an EV vs and ICE comes with the hugely simpler diagnostics required.
If your ICE doesn't start or has a misfire, it could be one of about 100 different parts that have failed or worn. Diagnosing what has failed is complex, time consuming (and hence expensive) and often done very very badly (just google "my ecu needed to be replaced" for litterally thousands of stories of garages who have no idea what they are doing randomly changing parts that are totally fine......)
With an EV, the diagnosis is simple, as really there are only about 5 failure modes, and the main, expesnive ones have full diagnostics coverage and are not interdependant, unlike in an ICE. Plug into the BMS on an EV and it will tell you EXACTLY how worn each cell in the pack is for example, what the HVcontactor life remains, or what the isolation resistance is etc
yea they really never bothered making the diagnostics with enough depth to make up for all the more parts an ICE vehicle has so less sensors at all the spots means you need a lot of knowledge and some trail and error to pick out what's really wrong.
EVs are simpler and therefore diagnostics today really already do enough.
This information needs to be put out there... At least with Auto trader you are reaching thousands.... 👍
We need more EV/Electric/Mechanics like this. Providing battery module replacements instead of swapping the whole damn battery.
They will arrive for sure. There is a thriving industry of independents who like ICE before it, will help hapless customers avoid the stealership model.
Excellent informative review Rory.
The £5k cost to repair the RR was just for a hybrid battery. The repair price for a full BEV battery repair would be considerably higher. It's still considerably cheaper to replace individual components on an ICE car and also the infrastructure and expertise is widely available.
er, nope. Because a "cell" is a Cell and a "module" is a module, the only difference is the number installed in the vehicle. And with a PHEV and there relatively small capacities, each module gets worked a LOT harder and experiences a deeper DoD than for a full EV!
@@maxtorque2277 Full BEV batteries are far more difficult to access than on a Hybrid. A Hybrid battery can probably be accessed without taking it out of the car, a BEV battery would have to be removed. As a result, labour charges and testing would be at least double.
Did you not watch the video? A Tesla repair (full BEV) was around the same price as the hybrid battery.
A battery pack is made up of individual cells/modules…it’s just how many that determine the overall size.
Fabulous series, Rory, and shows that batteries don't degrade as much as people fear. However that car was atypical. It would have been interesting to know:
1. What the average degradation is
2. What caused that car to be better? Was it the type of use? Or how it was charged?
Also, repairing a battery is only the solution if something is damaged. With battery degradation, surely all cells will (roughly) degrade equally and so when it degrades to the point of being not fit for your purpose, the only solution is a full replacement. Which is also true of ICE cars, admittedly.
Very interesting that charging performance degrades too. So there's kind of a double whammy there: need to charge more often and it'll take longer.
However on the plus side, I fully understand your higher level of confidence in driving a high mileage EV rather than an ICE. I think I'd be the same knowing just how many bits can go wrong on a liquid fuelled car. There's a reason they hide everything in the engine bay under plastic these days.😂
These EV numbers are still astronomical! You cannot say “just” £5200 for a repair, that’s insane.
Fix an auto on a 10 year old BMW 7 series and you'll see that's what it costs.
5.2k add 5k and buy used EV. Don't repair it, throw away and buy another one.
@@GF-mf7ml, so instead of paying 5k to get a working car with controlled battery pack you pay 10k to get a car with unknown history and (mostly) unknown battery condition? Yeah, sounds reasonable...
I ALWAYS repair my cars and try to keep them as long as I am just fed up with the platform. If the engine or transmission fail I repair them instead of scrapping the car and getting a new used one. Maybe the new used one will crap out the next day and what do I do then? Buy another one? If I do a full engine overhaul with new water pump, fuel pumps, injectors, plugs, pulleys, chains etc I know it will be basically as good as new for a loooong time. Costs a ton of money for an old car but if it works brilliantly after that then fine by me.
@@andrewm190E I have a 16 year old N/A N53 E92. New injectors were over 2k, also decided that probably some other moving parts will need replacement soon since it was nearing 180k so swapped other stuff as well. Put over 4k into engine maintenance/rebuild. So IMO 5k for a revamped battery is not a other worldly amount if you get back the range and have some kind of warranty also for the repaired pack.
Love how you're comparing an EV with one of the most unreliable luxury ICE cars.
Yeah, very good vid mate, much appreciated👋
MG have just announced a lifetime battery warranty 👍
In Thailand right?
Wow that’s amazing. That said most Tesla’s have a 120,000 mile 8 year warranty which is way better than any ICE car. I do like the MG4.
MG lifetime is 200k miles.
@@davidbeppler3032 That’s so much better than an Audi or Porsche warranty
They know they're on to a winner because the average time that someone owns a car before they replace it has traditionally been six years. The average time before the vehicle is scrapped is twelve years. With motors and batteries being so reliable (and getting moreso all the time) they can be confident that a lifetime warranty is a safe bet. Other concerns will prompt a change of car before the battery does. Just look at the Tesla Model S P85. It was supplied with lifetime free charging and 12 years later people are still running them and getting free charging with no sign that the car is about to die.