Me: "I like the colour scheme, looks pretty nice" James: "The blue, the silver and the black don't work for me. It's not beautiful as a kind of colour palette to me." Me: "Oh yeah, I don't like that at all"
These grinder and coffee related reviews have reached the level of Hi-Fi reviews, with charts and all. Both are convoluted, potentially expensive and I have no complaints.
and like HIFI sets, unless you have heard 100 different sets and hear these two side by side, you probably can't tell a difference...G.A.S. is a real thing
@@tstanley01 This comment is an extreme exaggeration, but not entirely untrue. Depends on how badly you've destroyed your hearing and how controlled your environment is, but I'd argue most people could tell the difference between some random two pairs of headphones/IEMs as long as they don't have pretty similar profiles. The same logic can be applied to coffee. If you insist on milk and sugar and want to drink it just shy of boiling, you're not likely to tell a difference in coffee much at all, but if you try the coffee in an isolated situation and allow for the difference to shine, you don't need any experience to differentiate as long as your taste buds work and you're not sick or something.
There is a difference between having no “deal-breaker” level complaints vs having absolutely no complaints whatsoever (i.e. it perfect) about a product. Few new products in life are perfect out of the gate but some are good enough that you can ignore the more minor complaints overall and recommend it overall. Now because this is a product review, we expect him to point out the minor issue he might have with the product even if non of them prevent him from recommending the product. Thus “I have no complaints, that doesn’t mean I have no complaints.” Is just another way of saying “the only complaints I have are relatively minor overall and don’t preclude me from recommending the product.”.
15:26 well yeah but he's talking about the burr set at first, then about the machine as a whole. "I have no complaints about the quality of the filter coffee from the Niche Duo with the filter specific burr set. This is a very light roast, quite hard to extract coffee. It's done a really good job with it here. On that front, I have no complaints, but that doesn't mean I have no complaints. "
@@markberger2061While we are nit-picking, the rest of the English speaking world would greatly appreciate the demise of the Americanism "could care less" when what you mean is "couldn't care less".
I don't "like" it either, but that wouldn't have been my largest consideration. Yet, after the original beautiful Niche Zero, I can see it being distracting. The original is like a work of art for a grinder. I haven't had, or seen nearly as many to compare, but it is probably the most beautiful appliance I have. I'm normally a function over form guy and I love the reddit BIFL forum, but the original set an unusual president in this area; It was/is both and most likely BIFL too! I mean I grind under 40 grams a day, on burrs that were meant to be used commercially, grinding, possibly, many pounds a day for what years? Will any of us, ever need to change the burrs? I wouldn't think so, but I haven't done any math. 😋😀
As a data nerd, I would've loved to see the difference between the espresso burrs and the filter coffee burrs in the particle analyzer! Also a comparison with the EG-1 particle profile would've been great to learn why that grinder is able to make both great espresso and filter coffee, while the Niche filter coffee burrset wasn't. It's a good video, but I would love to learn a bit more and dive a bit deeper into the analysis to understand what variables are responsible for making great coffee.
This is actually the answer. All our favour TH-camrs are only a single person reviewing stuff. Looking at the data in depth and then a bunch of blind tasting (actually blind grind analysis would be interesting too - can we actually see a consistent difference?)
@@dtonpbacI understand your point of view, but isn't the whole premise of the Niche Duo that you have two different burrsets? It seems so clear to me to test the differences so you'll know if it is worth an upgrade from the Niche Zero. James uses the particle analyzer to compare one of the burrs with the EG-1, so clearly he has thought of doing some comparison, but I can't help but feel the video was a bit rushed as there is so much more to explore to give a proper review. Especially since he has the equipment to test it.
that little bean will never fulfill its aromatic life purpose 😢. poor little dude will probably work an unfulfilling office job for the rest of its life until retirement, wondering what its life would be like if only fate brought it a few centimeters closer to its target.
”We’ll pull some shots, we’ll taste them. We’ll make some filtercoffe, we’ll drink that too”. This cadence, almost poetry like, really stood out to me, just now, as a marker of the thought and quality that separates you from the rest of the field. Keep on rocking!
I cannot believe how excited I get when I see a new Hoffmann video drop especially because of how basic of a coffee drinker I am. French press is about all I do and drink it black but damn do I love a good Hoffmann vid.
Same here. Actually I just made a pour over following James’s technique, and reminded myself how much better press style coffee is. But I still love the videos.
Finally, I've been waiting for this! Small comment on the catch cup: They actually did change the cup a little. The external shape is identical, but it is now rounder at the inside on the bottom and the little ridge is no longer on the inside. Both had a habit of retaining grounds, so that is no issue anymore.
@@docfink yeah they changed it a while ago and both machines now come with it, but James has got the old cup in his Niche Zero, so to him this cup should be new.
Niche Zero owner here, thanks James for the review so I can resist the itch to upgrade. My next upgrade will be variable speed, larger burr and flat. I also think particle analysis for grinders is a must in the future, so people can quantitatively evaluate and compare each. After watching this video, I feel like watching other coffee reviews about the duo and see what they say lol
Have to agree with your gripes here. 1 - we want a grinder that can be good (not perfect) in both filter and espresso without changing around burrs 2- I wouldn’t change burrs no matter how simple, on a daily basis, eg. between having a wake up espresso then filter at lunch 3- living in Norway it’s super common to make a 1L can of coffee to enjoy over time, the dosing cup is then kind of useless 4 - the blue burr would wreck my head. Conclusion - this is not the grinder for me
@@billhanna2148 Me not. I just want more flexibility and/or a different interpretations of espresso compared to the Niche Zero. I will try the Duo espresso stock burrs and maybe will find something different to James (will see). But would also be interested in more alternative espresso burrs
I noticed that the espresso burr seemed misplaced in that the SET on the burr should be up at the white dot according to Niche as that is the best position for a burr set planarity if I understand their manual. Second I cut a simple rubber disc to cover beans as it grinds, keeps th epopping contained. Yep, I own one and do notice the similarity in the burr sets but also taste a difference, could be me, the beans and who knows. That said I am watching those who are giong to or have installed different burrs sets....interesting. Great review and good points made
Something that has also been catching on is mechanically adjusting (via a washer, paper, tape, etc.) the anti-popcorn wheel entry-hole size on the Niche Zero for a slow-feed effect. This reduces fines even more and I can attest to noticing an improvement in espresso clarity and pour-over clarity. Without that popcorn wheel in the Duo this mod is not possible. This continues to prove what James posited years ago in his re-grinding video.
After one year of using the "Niche-killer", AKA DF83, or as I call it, the "POS", I went ahead and bought the Zero. I should have done this one year ago and couldn't be happier with that damn, cute and functional espresso grinder!
@@jeremypaulskinner Get over your “envy”. It’s a Chinese-designed and fabricated piece of ill -constructed junk. There’s a reason there’s a Gen 2 and completely redesigned Gen 5. I’m serious. It’s loud, completely misaligned out-of-the-box and a waste of $650. YMMV
I have the Zero version as my first every grinder. Having to switch out the burrs makes it an immediate no-go. The zero was nice because you can change coffee types and brewing styles almost per cup. Making it the easiest way to try out new stuff as a beginner
I'm well versed in coffee making but chasing these tiny incremental gains is ridiculous. The data shows there's little difference in particle size. It's all placebo
Yeah except you're forgetting that most of the "coffee people" it isn't actually there goal to reach some objective "best" coffee I mean that's the aim but nobody expects to actually reach that, the incremental imrovements are a hobby in and of themselves.@@davidarrowsmith865
There no clarity enhancement it’s an odd thing to state with 151B burrs that are very conical in taste in fact this is true with Mazzer 83mm espresso burrs in general
Your picture in the background (coffee landscape) would make a great jigsaw puzzle, and hence a great gift. Recommend you possibly follow-up on this idea. Ask your subscribers if they would buy this.
If you're partial to this you may also like the official 2024 Olympics poster which for me has a similar style and I believe is available as a 1000 piece puzzle.
Wonderful, deep review. But re. graph at 9:50 comparing particle size distribution between Niche Zero (conical) and EG1 (flat), the different peaks of the larger particles almost certainly has to do with the grind setting on the two machines and not conical vs. flat burrs. Without a way of standardizing grind settings between machines (not easy), all you can really do with these graphs is compare the shape of the distribution, not where the peaks sit along the x-axis. Looking at the shapes, I agree that the peaks of the flat burr profile are closer together.
You can sort of standardise (or at least make comparisons) by dialing them in with the same coffee, time, dose, ratio etc. I think they probably did do that, but it's not perfectly clear.
@@jackaw1197Exactly! And he does actually mention that that is what they did. If you start at the beginning of the chapter it's the intro before the graphs. The graphs don't reference that, though, so it's easy to get lost in the graphs and miss the pre-explanation.
@@PhillipLangenkamp You could also set one grind as your baseline, and then adjust the other to align the two as closely as possible regardless of the setting.
I bought the Niche Duo as I was struggling to get a great espresso with a lighter roast coffee using my Niche Zero. I am really pleased with it, actually. I was able to get that excellent espresso and a higher degree of consistency to my shots than i did with the Zero. I sold the Zero to a friend. I don’t miss it, the workflows and quality are the same. I only grind for espresso with the Duo. I have a different grinder for filter. YMMV but after 5 months of daily use I’m confident that it was the right decision for me. I’m getting consistently great shots across a range of beans.
As a Niche Duo owner, I agree with several of the points in this video. While swapping the burrs is relatively easy, I rarely do so and find myself either enjoying espresso or filter coffee for any given day, but rarely both. I would really love to see a universal burr option from Niche. For the slightly aggravating popcorning, I've resorted to using an upside-down backflush basket to keep my beans in the hopper. Works great when I remember to use it!
I want to say I originally found your channel because of the Niche! Back when I bought a thrifted (and cheap) flat burr grinder and started my way down the coffee rabbit hole. I ended up putting my money toward a 1zpresso hand grinder, but I still really like the Niche's design and the company's focus. I appreciate it's not just a black or silver box either, it's a fun and lively shape for a grinder. If I ever do pony up for an electric grinder it's probably going to be a Niche. On the subject of the dosing cup, they really should just make a wider cup that fits that larger indentation on the wooden puck there. When you see that it really seems like that was their intention. I'm surprised they haven't done it already, especially if they were going to come out with a filter focused burr set.
Hi James! Great video as always. Thank you for your analysis. If possible, I’d love to see the particle analysis of the filter burs vs the espresso burs
I bought a Niche Duo on launch. I was a previous Niche Zero owner for espresso use and was mulling buying an Ode 2 for filter coffee as I was more and more disappointed with filter performance on the Zero. The Duo turned out to be right what I want: similar espresso performance (it does taste different in the cup to me than the Zero, but it's far from dramatic) and much-improved filter performance. Plus, no second grinder on the counter. I've got no regrets about my purchase, but curiousity will likely get the best of me at some point and I'll throw some SSP burrs in here to see how it does.
I have the Niche Zero, and recently for the past year I’ve made nothing but Pour Over coffee and have thought about getting a flat burr grinder and was leaning towards the Ode Gen 2. Your video basically has confirmed that is the right choice. It’s half the price of the Duo and much smaller.
@@Madskills-hw2oxRight? I have a 12 year old Breville 450XL that I’ve been looking to upgrade. It’s a surprisingly capable conical grinder (for its price) but suffers the following problems: it can’t grind for espresso or Turkish (I got a J-MAX a couple of years ago for that and travelling); is super loud; is a highly retentive, non-single doser (I almost never drink the same coffee twice in a row), and I have to beat the snot out of it to get everything out - i.e. lousy work flow and more noise. And I just murdered it yesterday. So now my leisurely “ if I see the right grinder and have the money” search has become a little more urgent. Granted, I still have the J-MAX, so I won’t let myself be rushed but I’m not going to put up with perpetual hand grinding for long. But I still REALLY don’t know what to get.
I have a Specialita for espresso and a Fellow Ode 2 with SPK burrs for pour over. Very happy with the Ode and based on what James has demonstrated, I’d say, that’s the way to go.
@@richardjohnson4527 You are very wise with your choice of grinders. However, due to price point, Fellow has gone with a cheap Chinese motor in both Ode and Ode2 grinders that will fail long, long before the Eureka Specialita. On the same note, the touch screen on the Specialita will fail long, before the Motor does. However, no other grinder is built to last like a Eureka.
I've had the Duo for a few months, used exclusively for filter coffee which has been as good as any other grinder. I also have the Zero, and both are white. The Duo's white is much cooler than the Zero. The warm white of the Zero is more appealing. My only real complaints are the popcorning and the catch cup being too small for over 65g. The catch cup has slightly changed. I've been able to barely fit 80g in the new catch cup if I grind fine enough and shake the catch cup while it's grinding to settle the grinds and fill up any pockets, but that's not ideal. The old Zero catch cup is 110g while the new catch cup is 102-102.5g. I could never fit over 70g in the old catch cup. I did notice in the video that the espresso burrs were not aligned when the burrs were switched. The set sticker should have been at the top, the way it came from the factory. Though I don't know if deviating from factory calibration could affect particle size.
I have questions and a few comments after owning the duo for much of a year. Dear James, If blue is not your color... what color would you prefer? Q2: About the Duo... when will there be timber upgrades like the Z? (open question for anyone) I have enjoyed the past year and have changed the bur sets more than I thought I would. I have been very surprised that the grinding time using RDT can take a VERY LONG TIME for beans to start catching. It's like they are lubricated and are taking their good ol' time before they catch. Once grinding, they go fast. I get negligible static with RDT and the DUO. There is little to bellows out, but some. I agree with many of James' observations. Spot on. But, I do not have any problem with the blue carrier. It would be nice if Niche sold white, red, yellow carriers w/o burrs for the use of different sets. Well, it would be nice. And if there were optional empty carriers, it would be obvious that there would be the need for extra containers. One would not suffice. I too have been trying to figure out an alternate pour over grind cup. I have a generic Weber shaker knock off on order to see if it'll serve the need. All in all, I'm happy with the Duo. But if only dark roast espresso drinks were to be made... I would highly recommend the Z.
Imagine you have guests and someone asks for an espresso. Then you get your little screwdriver and your burrs set and you change them to make the coffee. You'll look like the biggest dork ever
Do you have the uniform? I found the noise was just atrocious, really detracted from the experience, the coffee was good but I’ve since switched to the Timemore 078, I don’t make espresso, and it’s gorgeous
@@non-newtoniandruid I have one and I agree the noise is bad. I am pleased with the coffee it makes so it's still my daily driver. Also unlike James, I prefer that the scale is also the lid as it makes for a clean setup instead of having 'another' device
@@non-newtoniandruid Yeah, have had it for a while, use it mostly for pour-over v60 or chemex. The noise is not great, but mostly content with it, how are you finding the time more? I'd be interested to know how an older grinder compares to some of the newer ones, beyond the ux.
A few months ago, I stumbled across this channel. Shortly after losing myself in a Hoffman binge I splurged on a lelit bianca v3 and this grinder 😅 So coming in from a cold start and just starting my real journey into the world of brewing, this grinder def met my expectations.
I have a Mid Century Comet Aluminum 7 Cup Dripomatic Coffee Pot. What say you, James? I don't think it's capable of overbrewing, it doesn't require any filters or fancy, well, anything. As long as you have a decent grinder and of course the all important bean, you have a nice couple cups of coffee and an all-around pleasant experience.
Little tip about presenting particle size data, particularly with an image analyzer: when comparing multiple distributions, the cumulative distribution view can be very helpful and less "messy" than the standard presentation.
Wow your video people popped off. The contrast and colour in this a-roll is like candy it’s perfect and so tasteful. Love the lighting, audio is mint. God bless
I'm a pure espresso drinker. Light roast almost exclusively, Weber basket. I've got both the Zero and Duo - this is baffling to me, because I think they taste very different. The Duo tastes far "flatter" than the Zero, there's no particular dominant peak. I had the Zero stored in a cupboard upstairs for about 6 months. Considering selling it, I decided to put it back on the counter to see if it provided something I'd forgotten about. It took a single tasting for me to decide, "No, the duo is much more pleasant". My gripes with it: the popcorning - it requires some add-ons to minimise to stop bits of bean flying even out of the lid. Also, the espresso range, Between 0 & 4 seems to do everything. That's a tiny fraction of the available range, and a finer thread on the grind adjustment would have made a big difference to the usability. I am very curious to see what installing SSP burrs would do (besides void the warranty), but that's an expensive experiment for another time.
Thanks for sharing. I agree that it should be evaluated with your own tongue, if you are interested and can afford. That being said: Beans might matter more then any grinder at or above this level
Has to be mentioned the burrsets provided are manufactured by Mazzer and they happen to be the same ones of the Major V and ZM. Mazzer already produces 3 x 83mm burrsets which can be used in the Niche Duo: - The espresso one (Major V Electronic, burrs 0151A/251A ) - The Hybrid (ZM, good for filter and espresso, K151L) - The Filter (ZM, unimodal geometry with the intent of producing less fines, filter coffee purposes 151F/K151F) which are extremely cheap compared to burrsets from other manufacturers. *Mazzer produces 6 or even more 83mm burrsets aside the ones mentioned above Aside the fact SSP produces an 83mm burrset compatible with Mazzer, hence Niche Duo. As you said looking at the grinder per se, it's like "it could have been better", especially considering what's around already. But the possibilities after the purchase are endless, could potentially end up being in between the best "domestic" single dose grinder with "commercial" quality.
Some Mazzer burr sets are for 3 phase and would stall when fitted to a single phase (household) grinder. I have a Mazzer Major with titanium burrs, and they stall if I fill the hopper. Single dosing is fine however.
@@cuprajake1interesting! The ones I've mentioned the codes of though are for single phase mazzers. As previously said though, if single dosing should be fine no matter what geometry
Yes. If Niche owner is in contact to the market, it should be quite easy to add some more options considering burrsets. If coming from Mazzer, than they should be of decent quality while still being affordable. This could potentially change the entire perception of the Niche Duo with a snap of a finger
I'm late on this, but I enjoyed watching it. Thank YOU James. I own a Niche Zero, thanks largely to James and his vids. A couple of things that I wish he would have touched upon. One, I bought my Niche after the Kickstarter, but still many years ago now. Mine came with the anti-pop-corning disk, but none of the vids used it in testing (that I recall) because the original, didn't come with it. I know he liked it better, but offhand, I don't know how much difference it makes, and I'm not sure he went into any detail in that, nor did he mention it here in the comparison. Two, he did a particle comparison on the espresso but not the "filtter" coffee. I use mine for siphon coffee daily. I can't afford the Niche Duo, currently, but there was much less comparison on the filter, than on the espresso to me. Lastly, I wish there were, recommended burr test. Like, You could use X or Y burs to achieve filter or espresso or combination. (maybe that's too large a field or something you could do later). I don't honestly know how many reasonable compatible bur-sets are out there . Still love the VID/Review 😀👍! Oh, during closing/summary James(you), forgot or didn't recommend Niche selling without a bur set, he (sorta) did in the beginning. I wish he had recommended that. 😉 I did get that without a different burr set, and/or my anti-pop-corning (plastic disc), it's doesn't seem to be a recommended upgrade, even for just filter. It's a shame that this one gets pop-corning beans in between the lid. I've never had that happen on the Zero (that I can remember). I looked on my Zero and there doesn't seem to be any room for the bean to escape between the funnel ridge and the top, without the lid being "popped" up. I'm curious if the Duo's lid is popping up, or if it doesn't have the close tolerance the Zero does.
Duo user here. This is my first grinder so nothing to compare but I have found it reliable so far, giving consistency and a nice easy workflow (I use it with the Robot). I will say, I don't find that the water is required. I have the white version and see very little in the way of static. With the filter burrs I did notice some retention, but discovered a way to help with that (see my "bellows" video!) and with that it seems fine now. Espresso burrs did seem to choke on the extremely fine setting (5) which was worrying. Overall, happy with it.
You got one thing wrong. You said the dosing cup hadn't changed. It did. About a year after your original video Niche changed the cup to have a nice rounded inside base, no sticky corners. I bought my Niche Zero about 3 years ago and still love it for espresso. Not great on V60 filter though so I recently bought a 1Zpresso ZP6 which I'm delighted with. Finally sweet and clean filter coffee - from a conical burr set! You should review it, you'll be surprised! Oh and it does superb Moka Pot drinks too which is awesome as the Moka is my travelling "espresso" stand in.
I have a 1zpresso k max and I'm very happy with it. It's manual, which means I use my upper body every day, and it's essentially silent. I don't drink enough coffee to feel the need to upgrade to a motor. But I'm curious whether/ what I'm missing. The coffee I make is streets ahead of what I can typically buy from cafes, not that it's a very high bar to clear.
Same, k-max is my first proper grinder and it's amazing. I don't see any big reason to upgrade, very happy as it is (I only do filter, so maybe for expresso it would be more tedious to grind)
Exact same observations here...using a Comandante C40. Can't justify the price of these electric grinders...particularly when it's more than I paid for my coffee machine.
You would be better getting a zp6 for the different flavor profile. Otherwise if you want a real improvement jumping to electric, timemore 078 or something 64mm with ssp mp
I have a niche zero, tempted to buy a duo, but didn't because of the dedicated burr for espresso and filter. I wonder if with the same burr set as the weber EG, the performance is the same ? I think that's a question that need an answer, and I might buy a duo. Anyway, like every time, great video and thank you for your work !
I have had the Duo for almost a year now and I relly like it. I dont usually drink filter coffee, so I only got the espresso burrs. It is my second, specialty coffee dedicated grinder, next to my large boy who carries my daily goto coffee. In terms of taste, it is hard for me to compare it to the zero, because I only tried it once. However, I have to slightly disagree with your statement on how the taste is closer to conical, for me it has the clarity profile of a flat, but indeed it took some seasoning; I'd say about a solid 10-15kg
I own one of each. The "Zero" was the first serious grinder I purchased, and I was only about six months into my home barista experiment when I got it. Your review, along with a few others, was extremely influential in my decision to get the Zero, and I have no regrets. It's a highly capable grinder, and other, marginally-more capable and marginally-better priced grinders that have come along since (for instance, the DF64) do not offer the same degree of workflow enjoyability. I purchased the Duo without waiting for anyone's review. And I do not regret the decision at all - it's wonderful having a few grinders to work with. Why? It's less about wanting to compare three different grinders, a/b/c/; that has a limited appeal. It's more about being able to have multiple different dial-ins so I can have a regular espresso, a decaf espresso, and a seasonal rotation - the single origin of the month. Trying to grind all on the same grinder means having to adjust the grind, and, despite the low retention, there is inevitably some cross-contamination (not a horrendous problem) but worse, there could be coffee waste (which I try very hard to avoid). I think your review of the Duo is very accurate. It's a highly capable grinder, but in some ways it's a step backward; it's louder, bulkier, and offers a bit less value-for-money. But, I was happy with my purchase, and I don't regret it.
Thanks for the review. I was really hoping this would be a good multitasker--i do espresso, my wife likes filter coffee. Our Eureka mignon is not ideal for this setup, but i got it because its easy on my ears and doesn't flare up my tinnitus. For this to be louder and more expensive than the zero, and still not nail both is disappointing.
Keep the mignon and get a manual grinder for filter. I gave that combo, Silenzio + 1Zpresso Q2. Couldn't be happier, 320€ for both. And many manual grinders can also do espresso so then you would also have a backup espresso grinder and a different style of burr. Manual grinders are stepped so you can write the settings down, which is a bit hard on the Mignon. 1.1 and a slight nudge to the left and then an even slighter nudge back to the right aaaand nope that was too fast... the knob is the one thing the Mignon does badly. But it's okay.
X-Pro would be my choice today but the Q2 has been a faithful filter grinder for years now and I'll probably gift it to someone as ab excuse to get a slightly fancier 1Z. And it's a breeze to grind not like the old manual ones that felt like crushing stone and screeched like a dying cat.
So I replaced my niche zero and fellow ode with this grinder. To me, it’s a great balance of making great filter coffee, as well as bodied espresso, which is what I was looking for. I immediately noticed my filter coffee was better than either the fellow ode and the zero. It also makes it really easy to clean the burrs, so I do it much more often. If that’s your use case, I think it’s a great all in one product. But admittedly, it might be a niche one. :)
Thanks for commenting this, I’m somewhat similar, I’ve bought a duo but it’s not here yet. Are you able to elaborate on the difference you noticed between ode 2 and duo filter burr? Cheers!!
Spraying my beans before grinding makes such a big difference in retention and static - so much less mess both in my hand and electric grinder. (I do occasionally have to tap the electric grinder to stop beans sticking)
Awesome and a little shocking as I've been waiting for you to review the Duo James. I purchased my Zero in July 2021 when we had to check for inventory daily LoL. I found a very nice heavy rubber bellows on Etsy that comes with a little clip to keep the microswitch depressed. Allowing for hot loading. As I only make espresso I will be hanging onto my Zero, thanks again.
I had a CEADO E37Z naked which unfortunately arrived twice damaged and it was just gorgeous to use. Al be it broken. Returned the second one and bought a WW EG-1 and never looked back. Interestingly I use the ULF burrs for my filter. Think it brings out more clarity. Thank you for another great video.
I love this channel. I do have a coffee grinder , Im quite happy with, I dont intent to buy a new one - yet still I love these videos. On a side note. Why are there so many youtube videos on coffee vrewing and coffee equipment, but so few on coffee? I mean, isn't the choice of your coffee the most decisive thing when it comes to whether or not a cup tastes good?
I would have loved to see the granulometry comparison chart between the filter burr and the Zero... Thanks for the great video as always, and now I know which one I am going to choose....
I mean, it's not their best album by any means (though I still think it's quite good), but sophomore slump? That assumes that the first album was better, which is...a take.
@@tcmotter yes, the first album is demonstrably worse. But the joke still landed for me, and though Trespass has a few cool moments, they'd get markedly better from then on. Anyway, most people don't even know about that album, so it was fun to see it!
@@RebelMagpieOn Revelation, you can tell they were still trying to decide how to get away from their Moody Blues inspiration. Trespass, in my opinion, was the first "real" Genesis album.
I have a niche zero, use it daily to make my coffee (on a moka pot) very nice to use although the coffee beans get stuck in the input funnel when watered which is required if i don’t want grind coffee being spelt all around from the output. Apart from that and given the reasonable price and the great looks, using it is a lovely everyday day experience.
I can't fathom how people are experiencing coffee flying everywhere when grinding with the Niche Zero. I've never had this issue, or I've just never noticed it after using it for two years now. Might be because I am grinding coarser for pour overs and immersion brewing.
@@Amandus. I grind strictly espresso with my Niche and I don't have a problem with coffee flying everywhere either. Maybe it's because I'm in the Midwest where the humidity is a little higher than most of the country. Not really sure why some Niches do and some don't.
So glad for this review and when Buying my ODE 2 I struggled with if I should wait for this one. Fantastic grinder but thanks for reinforcing for me at least that I made the right choice in the ODE 2 (I’m filter coffee only )
So glad my fomo is relieved. I love my niche zero, but of course I was curious about the duo. I use the zero mostly for filter brews, but also for occasional espressos, and it has been very satisfying for both uses. I am not surprised that the flat burrs for filter on the duo give better results, but it seems clear this would not really work for my needs, as I do like to make espresso from time to time and I sure as heck am not going to swap the burrs to do that. So I will stick with my zero and continue to be happy. Thanks for the great review!
Love these videos James, my only question is, which electric grinder would you say is the best value for purely filter coffee without going to crazy prices?
I’m sorry but Trespass is far superior to From Genesis To Revolution. You could argue that Trespass is actually Genesis’s true first album (stylistically anyway)
I'm about to watch this video even though I already own a Niche Zero for espresso, and I have no plans on replacing or updating it any time soon because it meets all my needs. This is a valuable use of my time. I do agree with James here. Even though it's just one screw and a minute or two of screwing, I can't see myself constantly changing burr sets. Doing espresso every morning already takes me around 15 minutes, so the relative cost of 3 minutes is a 20% increase in the time I spend every morning. I just don't see that much value in adding another step to my morning workflow. I own the Decent Espresso DE1, so changing the brewing profile or grind size or dose has a huge impact on the flavor output. If I want something different, I'll be able to use different beans or a different brewing profile to get a better taste, rather than spending minutes changing out a burr set. That being said, having user replaceable burrs is quite nice. I can see the long term maintenance value of having easily replaceable burr sets. But I can't see spending hundreds of dollars just to avoid changing out a few screws every few years. Definitely an interesting option for people with lots of money to spend on coffee, but I think I'm already at my coffee spending limit with my current equipment. Right now I'm focusing on trying out more types of beans, and practicing with brewing profiles, rather than trying to upgrade my equipment. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of getting better at brewing, and it costs me relatively little.
When I bought my ECM classika it came with a mid wight metal tamper. I took the hopper off my Ceado E37S grinder and placed the ECM tamper over the grinder funnel opening- and presto! single dose grinder ;)
Quick change is terrible for perfect tolerances. Quick change systems generally rely on slop to make it work properly. Not necessarily impossible but close enough
James, as you talked about wanting a bigger dosing cup, your coffee cup was standing just next to the grinder and my intrusive thoughts just got the best of me😬
I’m a Niche Zero owner. My next grinder is likely to be the Mazzer Philos. I want the alignment of metal, not plastic. I also want a controlled feed rate of an auger, and the ability to clean the grinder without touching the alignment or getting grinds into the adjustment threads.
@@JonFairhurst Of course not. The carriers are made of an aluminum alloy, the part you are talking about is only the cover over it (blue for filter or black for espresso)
Weirdly this review made me very happy, I was worried I would get some sort of fomo from owning the zero and wanting the duo but you just laid my fears to rest. I am very happy with my Niche Zero and will probably stay happy with it for a long time still to come.
Thanks James, appreciate the review. Now that this grinder didn’t deliver on your expectation (great allrounder for espresso & v60), are there any alternatives that you are aware of? (Aside from that 3k+ monstrosity 😉)
“Thank you so much for watching, and I hope you have a great day.” I look forward to that tag line every time. It feels so genuine. James, I’m thinking the best solution is for you to team up with Niche or produce your own grinder.
i have zero idea if comment under month old video will be read, but i can give suggestions for swaping burrs... hopper could be pop-in type, but that could cause problems with grind setting, since it could lose it's alignment... but thing that should be doable is making burrs a set, so you can pull out single part and swap that, screwdriver would be needed to disassemble it instead of swapping bottom burr, that ought to make whole process way easier
Hey James, thank you for this - as an owner (a happy owner!) of the Niche Zero I've been curious about this new grinder. I'm particularly interested in the filter burr set. From your particle analysis of the espresso burrs I felt like an upgrade would be... well, not an upgrade. But unless I zoned out, I didn't see a similar analysis of the particle size from the filter burr set - is there's a marked difference and a more consistent distribution as you would expect?
Moved from Fellow opus with conical burrs to Niche duo with flat burrs and aside from workflow improvements and almost zero retention, i felt the extraction of the beans initially felt slightly muted. I thought this is because its due to unseasoned burrs on my new Niche duo, but im not sure if it is now. Still feeling a bit muted after using it for 1 month and few kgs. I do love the quality of the espresso it produces though and man the workflow just feels such an upgrade
If you looking for a a better espresso and pour over setup I recommend the DF83V Variable Speed Coffee Grinder which is a 83mm burr setup as well at $799. Not to mention multiple burr sets available like the Sweet Labs 83mm which does both espresso & pour over the best in my opinion or go SSP MP 83mm which is another great option. The best thing I like about the DF83V it has the variable speed motor which is awesome for pour overs less fines. You can switch the stock dosing cup with a Blind Tumbler that will hold 40g with ease. This has been my best upgrade for end results and work flow. Don’t think of DF83V being poorly built it is not zero issue extremely solid build.
That was my impression as well. Same for espresso as the Zero, way better for filter with the filter burr. Do keep in mind that it’s easier with this grinder to go back and forth if you’re trying new burrs and want to compare in quick succession.
It needs speed control. I have a df83v and so far is working well for espresso and filter. But i'm very early on with it. Just set it to 500rpm and probably wont change it for a while.
Oh boy my opinion on the Niche Duo has finally dropped
Same
Me: "I like the colour scheme, looks pretty nice"
James: "The blue, the silver and the black don't work for me. It's not beautiful as a kind of colour palette to me."
Me: "Oh yeah, I don't like that at all"
@@photonicpizza1466😂😂
Same. I was absolutely fine with it until he mentioned it and now it repulses me.
@@tomspotley5733I mean yeah because if James Hoffman told me to jump off a bridge I probably would
These grinder and coffee related reviews have reached the level of Hi-Fi reviews, with charts and all. Both are convoluted, potentially expensive and I have no complaints.
and like HIFI sets, unless you have heard 100 different sets and hear these two side by side, you probably can't tell a difference...G.A.S. is a real thing
@@tstanley01 This comment is an extreme exaggeration, but not entirely untrue. Depends on how badly you've destroyed your hearing and how controlled your environment is, but I'd argue most people could tell the difference between some random two pairs of headphones/IEMs as long as they don't have pretty similar profiles.
The same logic can be applied to coffee. If you insist on milk and sugar and want to drink it just shy of boiling, you're not likely to tell a difference in coffee much at all, but if you try the coffee in an isolated situation and allow for the difference to shine, you don't need any experience to differentiate as long as your taste buds work and you're not sick or something.
“I have no complaints, that doesn’t mean I have NO complaints.” A very coffee person thing that should be on a shirt.
Something not having anything wrong with it is very different from something doing everything right.
That would be great if it wasn't quoted incorrectly.
There is a difference between having no “deal-breaker” level complaints vs having absolutely no complaints whatsoever (i.e. it perfect) about a product. Few new products in life are perfect out of the gate but some are good enough that you can ignore the more minor complaints overall and recommend it overall. Now because this is a product review, we expect him to point out the minor issue he might have with the product even if non of them prevent him from recommending the product. Thus “I have no complaints, that doesn’t mean I have no complaints.” Is just another way of saying “the only complaints I have are relatively minor overall and don’t preclude me from recommending the product.”.
15:26 well yeah but he's talking about the burr set at first, then about the machine as a whole.
"I have no complaints about the quality of the filter coffee from the Niche Duo with the filter specific burr set. This is a very light roast, quite hard to extract coffee. It's done a really good job with it here. On that front, I have no complaints, but that doesn't mean I have no complaints. "
james get this on a shirt and you'll be rich
Genuine LOL at “I don’t like the blue”, never change James, never change….. (happy Niche Zero owner with no buyers remorse after seeing this!)
You LIKE the blue ??😲😱😮
@@billhanna2148I could care less to be honest, simply the usual James details that’s the chuckle 😅
@@markberger2061While we are nit-picking, the rest of the English speaking world would greatly appreciate the demise of the Americanism "could care less" when what you mean is "couldn't care less".
I also don’t like the blue and almost three years into Zero ownership I have found reaffirmation in my choice to keep it
I don't "like" it either, but that wouldn't have been my largest consideration. Yet, after the original beautiful Niche Zero, I can see it being distracting. The original is like a work of art for a grinder. I haven't had, or seen nearly as many to compare, but it is probably the most beautiful appliance I have. I'm normally a function over form guy and I love the reddit BIFL forum, but the original set an unusual president in this area; It was/is both and most likely BIFL too! I mean I grind under 40 grams a day, on burrs that were meant to be used commercially, grinding, possibly, many pounds a day for what years? Will any of us, ever need to change the burrs? I wouldn't think so, but I haven't done any math. 😋😀
As a data nerd, I would've loved to see the difference between the espresso burrs and the filter coffee burrs in the particle analyzer! Also a comparison with the EG-1 particle profile would've been great to learn why that grinder is able to make both great espresso and filter coffee, while the Niche filter coffee burrset wasn't.
It's a good video, but I would love to learn a bit more and dive a bit deeper into the analysis to understand what variables are responsible for making great coffee.
This is actually the answer. All our favour TH-camrs are only a single person reviewing stuff. Looking at the data in depth and then a bunch of blind tasting (actually blind grind analysis would be interesting too - can we actually see a consistent difference?)
Then the video would have been too long. I think he also didn't want to go too nerdy or get overly technical about a single grinder.
I’m interested in this too! Come on James go all Lance Hedrick on this topic man! The nerds demand this! Respectfully of course.
@@dtonpbacI understand your point of view, but isn't the whole premise of the Niche Duo that you have two different burrsets? It seems so clear to me to test the differences so you'll know if it is worth an upgrade from the Niche Zero.
James uses the particle analyzer to compare one of the burrs with the EG-1, so clearly he has thought of doing some comparison, but I can't help but feel the video was a bit rushed as there is so much more to explore to give a proper review. Especially since he has the equipment to test it.
Yes!!!!
that single missed bean at 4:04 saddened me
Bean Not Found.
that little bean will never fulfill its aromatic life purpose 😢. poor little dude will probably work an unfulfilling office job for the rest of its life until retirement, wondering what its life would be like if only fate brought it a few centimeters closer to its target.
LOL@@DavidOakesMusic
it was picked up off camera and dropped in when no one was looking. (It wasn't, but worried about people sleeping tonight)
That bean made it into the grinder just not on video, James misses nothing!
”We’ll pull some shots, we’ll taste them. We’ll make some filtercoffe, we’ll drink that too”.
This cadence, almost poetry like, really stood out to me, just now, as a marker of the thought and quality that separates you from the rest of the field. Keep on rocking!
It's the meter I think you're referring to rather than the cadence
@@TheOriginal_BigMac everyone's a critic 😅
I cannot believe how excited I get when I see a new Hoffmann video drop especially because of how basic of a coffee drinker I am. French press is about all I do and drink it black but damn do I love a good Hoffmann vid.
Same here. Actually I just made a pour over following James’s technique, and reminded myself how much better press style coffee is. But I still love the videos.
Finally, I've been waiting for this!
Small comment on the catch cup: They actually did change the cup a little. The external shape is identical, but it is now rounder at the inside on the bottom and the little ridge is no longer on the inside. Both had a habit of retaining grounds, so that is no issue anymore.
My new Zero has the same new cup.
The round bottom was already a thing.
@@docfink yeah they changed it a while ago and both machines now come with it, but James has got the old cup in his Niche Zero, so to him this cup should be new.
Early Zeroes didn't have this cup, but they updated to what comes with the Duo a couple years back.
Niche Zero owner here, thanks James for the review so I can resist the itch to upgrade. My next upgrade will be variable speed, larger burr and flat. I also think particle analysis for grinders is a must in the future, so people can quantitatively evaluate and compare each. After watching this video, I feel like watching other coffee reviews about the duo and see what they say lol
I love that your sweaters keep getting bigger
Yeah, to hell with the cups, I want a link to that gorgeous chunky sweater!
(The cups are lovely really)
I’d love to see the particle analyser data of the thickness of the knit compared to jumpers from previous videos.
@@mattscarf TOAST do a very similar jumper but without the cable knit.
it's the same sweater through the last few years. maybe James is shrinking? 🤷🏻♂
Thank you, James. You've convinced me that the Niche Zero is a better choice for my needs, and saved me a bit of money in the process! 👍
Have to agree with your gripes here.
1 - we want a grinder that can be good (not perfect) in both filter and espresso without changing around burrs
2- I wouldn’t change burrs no matter how simple, on a daily basis, eg. between having a wake up espresso then filter at lunch
3- living in Norway it’s super common to make a 1L can of coffee to enjoy over time, the dosing cup is then kind of useless
4 - the blue burr would wreck my head.
Conclusion - this is not the grinder for me
Totally agree with you on all points
@@billhanna2148 Me not. I just want more flexibility and/or a different interpretations of espresso compared to the Niche Zero. I will try the Duo espresso stock burrs and maybe will find something different to James (will see). But would also be interested in more alternative espresso burrs
I noticed that the espresso burr seemed misplaced in that the SET on the burr should be up at the white dot according to Niche as that is the best position for a burr set planarity if I understand their manual.
Second I cut a simple rubber disc to cover beans as it grinds, keeps th epopping contained.
Yep, I own one and do notice the similarity in the burr sets but also taste a difference, could be me, the beans and who knows. That said I am watching those who are giong to or have installed different burrs sets....interesting.
Great review and good points made
Something that has also been catching on is mechanically adjusting (via a washer, paper, tape, etc.) the anti-popcorn wheel entry-hole size on the Niche Zero for a slow-feed effect. This reduces fines even more and I can attest to noticing an improvement in espresso clarity and pour-over clarity. Without that popcorn wheel in the Duo this mod is not possible. This continues to prove what James posited years ago in his re-grinding video.
Sounds like an audiophile lol
You have no idea how much my wallet is thanking you for confirming that my Niche Zero is still a great choice 😂
I'm waiting for the price to drop now and get a Zero without the fomo.
lol my thoughts exactly
After one year of using the "Niche-killer", AKA DF83, or as I call it, the "POS", I went ahead and bought the Zero. I should have done this one year ago and couldn't be happier with that damn, cute and functional espresso grinder!
@@docfink what didn't you like about the DF? I have the Niche Zero and definitely experience 'flat-burr envy'.
@@jeremypaulskinner Get over your “envy”. It’s a Chinese-designed and fabricated piece of ill -constructed junk. There’s a reason there’s a Gen 2 and completely redesigned Gen 5. I’m serious. It’s loud, completely misaligned out-of-the-box and a waste of $650. YMMV
I have the Zero version as my first every grinder. Having to switch out the burrs makes it an immediate no-go. The zero was nice because you can change coffee types and brewing styles almost per cup. Making it the easiest way to try out new stuff as a beginner
I watch this channel semi regular and oh boy did he just put his coffee thru a particle analyzer? Thats more effort than I put in anywhere xD
4:04 Anybody else twitching at that bean that made a break for it? 🤣
the fact that it isn't on the counter in the next shot makes me hope he grabbed it off camera and tossed it in before grinding
No bean left behind!
Gosh. Been watching this dude for 5 years
This is hilarious. I've seen so many Reddit comments about the clarity enhancement 😂 and it's virtually no different.
😂😂
Taste is subjective. But I do know when a coffee tastes like shit.... keep that in mind when making coffee...
I'm well versed in coffee making but chasing these tiny incremental gains is ridiculous. The data shows there's little difference in particle size. It's all placebo
Yeah except you're forgetting that most of the "coffee people" it isn't actually there goal to reach some objective "best" coffee I mean that's the aim but nobody expects to actually reach that, the incremental imrovements are a hobby in and of themselves.@@davidarrowsmith865
There no clarity enhancement it’s an odd thing to state with 151B burrs that are very conical in taste in fact this is true with Mazzer 83mm espresso burrs in general
Your picture in the background (coffee landscape) would make a great jigsaw puzzle, and hence a great gift. Recommend you possibly follow-up on this idea. Ask your subscribers if they would buy this.
They already sell the coffee city print on their shop.
Agreed, a puzzle version would sell. Would occupy an afternoon around Xmas time with family on a rainy day.
That is exactly what I was thinking! Wow
If you're partial to this you may also like the official 2024 Olympics poster which for me has a similar style and I believe is available as a 1000 piece puzzle.
he literally advertises it at the end of the video
“I want an easy life. I am a lazy man!”, says James. What does that make the rest of us?!
Wonderful, deep review. But re. graph at 9:50 comparing particle size distribution between Niche Zero (conical) and EG1 (flat), the different peaks of the larger particles almost certainly has to do with the grind setting on the two machines and not conical vs. flat burrs. Without a way of standardizing grind settings between machines (not easy), all you can really do with these graphs is compare the shape of the distribution, not where the peaks sit along the x-axis. Looking at the shapes, I agree that the peaks of the flat burr profile are closer together.
You can sort of standardise (or at least make comparisons) by dialing them in with the same coffee, time, dose, ratio etc. I think they probably did do that, but it's not perfectly clear.
@@jackaw1197Exactly! And he does actually mention that that is what they did. If you start at the beginning of the chapter it's the intro before the graphs. The graphs don't reference that, though, so it's easy to get lost in the graphs and miss the pre-explanation.
@@PhillipLangenkamp You could also set one grind as your baseline, and then adjust the other to align the two as closely as possible regardless of the setting.
i also made a similar comment. He got this wrong
I bought the Niche Duo as I was struggling to get a great espresso with a lighter roast coffee using my Niche Zero. I am really pleased with it, actually. I was able to get that excellent espresso and a higher degree of consistency to my shots than i did with the Zero. I sold the Zero to a friend. I don’t miss it, the workflows and quality are the same. I only grind for espresso with the Duo. I have a different grinder for filter. YMMV but after 5 months of daily use I’m confident that it was the right decision for me. I’m getting consistently great shots across a range of beans.
Thanks for sharing. I have a high respect about James opinions but am also willing to find my own
As a Niche Duo owner, I agree with several of the points in this video. While swapping the burrs is relatively easy, I rarely do so and find myself either enjoying espresso or filter coffee for any given day, but rarely both. I would really love to see a universal burr option from Niche. For the slightly aggravating popcorning, I've resorted to using an upside-down backflush basket to keep my beans in the hopper. Works great when I remember to use it!
Please can I ask what you make of the filter burrs? Info online is quite sparse so any info would be appreciated 😅
I want to say I originally found your channel because of the Niche! Back when I bought a thrifted (and cheap) flat burr grinder and started my way down the coffee rabbit hole. I ended up putting my money toward a 1zpresso hand grinder, but I still really like the Niche's design and the company's focus. I appreciate it's not just a black or silver box either, it's a fun and lively shape for a grinder. If I ever do pony up for an electric grinder it's probably going to be a Niche.
On the subject of the dosing cup, they really should just make a wider cup that fits that larger indentation on the wooden puck there. When you see that it really seems like that was their intention. I'm surprised they haven't done it already, especially if they were going to come out with a filter focused burr set.
Larger dosing cup would not work so smoothly with portafilters though
@@mf2825 The appropriately sized cups could be included with the burr set they're intended for.
At first read I thought you were saying something about "Nickel Back" in the first sentence 😂
Hi James! Great video as always. Thank you for your analysis. If possible, I’d love to see the particle analysis of the filter burs vs the espresso burs
YES! Been looking forward to this review since I saw the Duo on their website.
I bought a Niche Duo on launch. I was a previous Niche Zero owner for espresso use and was mulling buying an Ode 2 for filter coffee as I was more and more disappointed with filter performance on the Zero. The Duo turned out to be right what I want: similar espresso performance (it does taste different in the cup to me than the Zero, but it's far from dramatic) and much-improved filter performance. Plus, no second grinder on the counter. I've got no regrets about my purchase, but curiousity will likely get the best of me at some point and I'll throw some SSP burrs in here to see how it does.
I have the Niche Zero, and recently for the past year I’ve made nothing but Pour Over coffee and have thought about getting a flat burr grinder and was leaning towards the Ode Gen 2. Your video basically has confirmed that is the right choice. It’s half the price of the Duo and much smaller.
So, you say
the fellow ode 2
I’ll go watch James on that… again
Geez
I’ve watched so many videos my heads spinning
@@Madskills-hw2oxRight?
I have a 12 year old Breville 450XL that I’ve been looking to upgrade. It’s a surprisingly capable conical grinder (for its price) but suffers the following problems: it can’t grind for espresso or Turkish (I got a J-MAX a couple of years ago for that and travelling); is super loud; is a highly retentive, non-single doser (I almost never drink the same coffee twice in a row), and I have to beat the snot out of it to get everything out - i.e. lousy work flow and more noise.
And I just murdered it yesterday. So now my leisurely “ if I see the right grinder and have the money” search has become a little more urgent. Granted, I still have the J-MAX, so I won’t let myself be rushed but I’m not going to put up with perpetual hand grinding for long. But I still REALLY don’t know what to get.
I have a Specialita for espresso and a Fellow Ode 2 with SPK burrs for pour over. Very happy with the Ode and based on what James has demonstrated, I’d say, that’s the way to go.
If you don’t need espresso, ode gen 2 is perfect
@@richardjohnson4527 You are very wise with your choice of grinders. However, due to price point, Fellow has gone with a cheap Chinese motor in both Ode and Ode2 grinders that will fail long, long before the Eureka Specialita. On the same note, the touch screen on the Specialita will fail long, before the Motor does. However, no other grinder is built to last like a Eureka.
I've had the Duo for a few months, used exclusively for filter coffee which has been as good as any other grinder. I also have the Zero, and both are white. The Duo's white is much cooler than the Zero. The warm white of the Zero is more appealing. My only real complaints are the popcorning and the catch cup being too small for over 65g. The catch cup has slightly changed. I've been able to barely fit 80g in the new catch cup if I grind fine enough and shake the catch cup while it's grinding to settle the grinds and fill up any pockets, but that's not ideal. The old Zero catch cup is 110g while the new catch cup is 102-102.5g. I could never fit over 70g in the old catch cup. I did notice in the video that the espresso burrs were not aligned when the burrs were switched. The set sticker should have been at the top, the way it came from the factory. Though I don't know if deviating from factory calibration could affect particle size.
I bought this seven months ago and have been hoping for this review for so long!!
I have questions and a few comments after owning the duo for much of a year.
Dear James, If blue is not your color... what color would you prefer?
Q2: About the Duo... when will there be timber upgrades like the Z? (open question for anyone)
I have enjoyed the past year and have changed the bur sets more than I thought I would.
I have been very surprised that the grinding time using RDT can take a VERY LONG TIME for beans to start catching. It's like they are lubricated and are taking their good ol' time before they catch. Once grinding, they go fast.
I get negligible static with RDT and the DUO. There is little to bellows out, but some.
I agree with many of James' observations. Spot on. But, I do not have any problem with the blue carrier. It would be nice if Niche sold white, red, yellow carriers w/o burrs for the use of different sets. Well, it would be nice.
And if there were optional empty carriers, it would be obvious that there would be the need for extra containers. One would not suffice.
I too have been trying to figure out an alternate pour over grind cup. I have a generic Weber shaker knock off on order to see if it'll serve the need.
All in all, I'm happy with the Duo. But if only dark roast espresso drinks were to be made... I would highly recommend the Z.
Imagine you have guests and someone asks for an espresso. Then you get your little screwdriver and your burrs set and you change them to make the coffee. You'll look like the biggest dork ever
Plot twist: you are the biggest dork ever
Great video as always!
Would love to see you revisit the Wilfa Uniform, I believe it was part of your daily setup some time ago
Do you have the uniform? I found the noise was just atrocious, really detracted from the experience, the coffee was good but I’ve since switched to the Timemore 078, I don’t make espresso, and it’s gorgeous
Me too I would love to see a follow up , is it still part of your setup ? especially as I am contemplating/procrastinating buying a Wilfa Uniform.
@@non-newtoniandruid I have one and I agree the noise is bad. I am pleased with the coffee it makes so it's still my daily driver. Also unlike James, I prefer that the scale is also the lid as it makes for a clean setup instead of having 'another' device
@@non-newtoniandruid Yeah, have had it for a while, use it mostly for pour-over v60 or chemex. The noise is not great, but mostly content with it, how are you finding the time more?
I'd be interested to know how an older grinder compares to some of the newer ones, beyond the ux.
@@TheMrCazano what's your experience been in terms of its clarity? I'm really interested, as I have had mixed results over the years...
A few months ago, I stumbled across this channel. Shortly after losing myself in a Hoffman binge I splurged on a lelit bianca v3 and this grinder 😅
So coming in from a cold start and just starting my real journey into the world of brewing, this grinder def met my expectations.
I have a Mid Century Comet Aluminum 7 Cup Dripomatic Coffee Pot. What say you, James? I don't think it's capable of overbrewing, it doesn't require any filters or fancy, well, anything. As long as you have a decent grinder and of course the all important bean, you have a nice couple cups of coffee and an all-around pleasant experience.
Little tip about presenting particle size data, particularly with an image analyzer: when comparing multiple distributions, the cumulative distribution view can be very helpful and less "messy" than the standard presentation.
8:24 - "I was curious, so I immediately went to my particle size analyzer". Never change.
Wow your video people popped off. The contrast and colour in this a-roll is like candy it’s perfect and so tasteful. Love the lighting, audio is mint. God bless
I'm a pure espresso drinker. Light roast almost exclusively, Weber basket. I've got both the Zero and Duo - this is baffling to me, because I think they taste very different. The Duo tastes far "flatter" than the Zero, there's no particular dominant peak. I had the Zero stored in a cupboard upstairs for about 6 months. Considering selling it, I decided to put it back on the counter to see if it provided something I'd forgotten about. It took a single tasting for me to decide, "No, the duo is much more pleasant".
My gripes with it: the popcorning - it requires some add-ons to minimise to stop bits of bean flying even out of the lid. Also, the espresso range, Between 0 & 4 seems to do everything. That's a tiny fraction of the available range, and a finer thread on the grind adjustment would have made a big difference to the usability.
I am very curious to see what installing SSP burrs would do (besides void the warranty), but that's an expensive experiment for another time.
Thanks for sharing. I agree that it should be evaluated with your own tongue, if you are interested and can afford. That being said: Beans might matter more then any grinder at or above this level
4:04, bean not found.
Found the java programmer
I am not very interested in coffee. But this person's voice is very soothing.
Has to be mentioned the burrsets provided are manufactured by Mazzer and they happen to be the same ones of the Major V and ZM. Mazzer already produces 3 x 83mm burrsets which can be used in the Niche Duo:
- The espresso one (Major V Electronic, burrs 0151A/251A )
- The Hybrid (ZM, good for filter and espresso, K151L)
- The Filter (ZM, unimodal geometry with the intent of producing less fines, filter coffee purposes 151F/K151F)
which are extremely cheap compared to burrsets from other manufacturers.
*Mazzer produces 6 or even more 83mm burrsets aside the ones mentioned above
Aside the fact SSP produces an 83mm burrset compatible with Mazzer, hence Niche Duo.
As you said looking at the grinder per se, it's like "it could have been better", especially considering what's around already.
But the possibilities after the purchase are endless, could potentially end up being in between the best "domestic" single dose grinder with "commercial" quality.
An interesting point to raise
Some Mazzer burr sets are for 3 phase and would stall when fitted to a single phase (household) grinder.
I have a Mazzer Major with titanium burrs, and they stall if I fill the hopper. Single dosing is fine however.
@@Gramayr the burrs in the duo are the 3 phase burrs
@@cuprajake1interesting! The ones I've mentioned the codes of though are for single phase mazzers. As previously said though, if single dosing should be fine no matter what geometry
Yes. If Niche owner is in contact to the market, it should be quite easy to add some more options considering burrsets. If coming from Mazzer, than they should be of decent quality while still being affordable.
This could potentially change the entire perception of the Niche Duo with a snap of a finger
I'm late on this, but I enjoyed watching it. Thank YOU James. I own a Niche Zero, thanks largely to James and his vids. A couple of things that I wish he would have touched upon. One, I bought my Niche after the Kickstarter, but still many years ago now. Mine came with the anti-pop-corning disk, but none of the vids used it in testing (that I recall) because the original, didn't come with it. I know he liked it better, but offhand, I don't know how much difference it makes, and I'm not sure he went into any detail in that, nor did he mention it here in the comparison. Two, he did a particle comparison on the espresso but not the "filtter" coffee. I use mine for siphon coffee daily. I can't afford the Niche Duo, currently, but there was much less comparison on the filter, than on the espresso to me. Lastly, I wish there were, recommended burr test. Like, You could use X or Y burs to achieve filter or espresso or combination. (maybe that's too large a field or something you could do later). I don't honestly know how many reasonable compatible bur-sets are out there . Still love the VID/Review 😀👍!
Oh, during closing/summary James(you), forgot or didn't recommend Niche selling without a bur set, he (sorta) did in the beginning. I wish he had recommended that. 😉
I did get that without a different burr set, and/or my anti-pop-corning (plastic disc), it's doesn't seem to be a recommended upgrade, even for just filter. It's a shame that this one gets pop-corning beans in between the lid. I've never had that happen on the Zero (that I can remember). I looked on my Zero and there doesn't seem to be any room for the bean to escape between the funnel ridge and the top, without the lid being "popped" up. I'm curious if the Duo's lid is popping up, or if it doesn't have the close tolerance the Zero does.
Duo user here. This is my first grinder so nothing to compare but I have found it reliable so far, giving consistency and a nice easy workflow (I use it with the Robot).
I will say, I don't find that the water is required. I have the white version and see very little in the way of static.
With the filter burrs I did notice some retention, but discovered a way to help with that (see my "bellows" video!) and with that it seems fine now. Espresso burrs did seem to choke on the extremely fine setting (5) which was worrying.
Overall, happy with it.
Seems to depend on beans, seasoning and humidity. According to Niche, RDT is not necessary nor recommended
You got one thing wrong. You said the dosing cup hadn't changed. It did. About a year after your original video Niche changed the cup to have a nice rounded inside base, no sticky corners. I bought my Niche Zero about 3 years ago and still love it for espresso. Not great on V60 filter though so I recently bought a 1Zpresso ZP6 which I'm delighted with. Finally sweet and clean filter coffee - from a conical burr set! You should review it, you'll be surprised! Oh and it does superb Moka Pot drinks too which is awesome as the Moka is my travelling "espresso" stand in.
Did I miss the particle size analyzer for the Filter Burr set? I'd like to know if there's an appreciable difference between the two burr sets.
definitely lacking some data
I have a 1zpresso k max and I'm very happy with it. It's manual, which means I use my upper body every day, and it's essentially silent. I don't drink enough coffee to feel the need to upgrade to a motor. But I'm curious whether/ what I'm missing. The coffee I make is streets ahead of what I can typically buy from cafes, not that it's a very high bar to clear.
Same, k-max is my first proper grinder and it's amazing. I don't see any big reason to upgrade, very happy as it is (I only do filter, so maybe for expresso it would be more tedious to grind)
Exact same observations here...using a Comandante C40. Can't justify the price of these electric grinders...particularly when it's more than I paid for my coffee machine.
You would be better getting a zp6 for the different flavor profile. Otherwise if you want a real improvement jumping to electric, timemore 078 or something 64mm with ssp mp
Been waiting so long for this!
I have a niche zero, tempted to buy a duo, but didn't because of the dedicated burr for espresso and filter.
I wonder if with the same burr set as the weber EG, the performance is the same ? I think that's a question that need an answer, and I might buy a duo.
Anyway, like every time, great video and thank you for your work !
I watch every video James puts out and yet I have a Nespresso Vertuo 🤣 and complain that the coffee isn't very good
Just get an xbloom. At least u be drinking decent coffee
I have had the Duo for almost a year now and I relly like it. I dont usually drink filter coffee, so I only got the espresso burrs. It is my second, specialty coffee dedicated grinder, next to my large boy who carries my daily goto coffee.
In terms of taste, it is hard for me to compare it to the zero, because I only tried it once. However, I have to slightly disagree with your statement on how the taste is closer to conical, for me it has the clarity profile of a flat, but indeed it took some seasoning; I'd say about a solid 10-15kg
Also, thanks for your work James, I love what you do and especially your integrity
You can taste the difference between burrs? Mind blown.
Love your work, please keep it up.
I own one of each. The "Zero" was the first serious grinder I purchased, and I was only about six months into my home barista experiment when I got it. Your review, along with a few others, was extremely influential in my decision to get the Zero, and I have no regrets. It's a highly capable grinder, and other, marginally-more capable and marginally-better priced grinders that have come along since (for instance, the DF64) do not offer the same degree of workflow enjoyability. I purchased the Duo without waiting for anyone's review. And I do not regret the decision at all - it's wonderful having a few grinders to work with. Why? It's less about wanting to compare three different grinders, a/b/c/; that has a limited appeal. It's more about being able to have multiple different dial-ins so I can have a regular espresso, a decaf espresso, and a seasonal rotation - the single origin of the month. Trying to grind all on the same grinder means having to adjust the grind, and, despite the low retention, there is inevitably some cross-contamination (not a horrendous problem) but worse, there could be coffee waste (which I try very hard to avoid). I think your review of the Duo is very accurate. It's a highly capable grinder, but in some ways it's a step backward; it's louder, bulkier, and offers a bit less value-for-money. But, I was happy with my purchase, and I don't regret it.
Thanks for the review. I was really hoping this would be a good multitasker--i do espresso, my wife likes filter coffee. Our Eureka mignon is not ideal for this setup, but i got it because its easy on my ears and doesn't flare up my tinnitus. For this to be louder and more expensive than the zero, and still not nail both is disappointing.
Keep the mignon and get a manual grinder for filter. I gave that combo, Silenzio + 1Zpresso Q2. Couldn't be happier, 320€ for both. And many manual grinders can also do espresso so then you would also have a backup espresso grinder and a different style of burr. Manual grinders are stepped so you can write the settings down, which is a bit hard on the Mignon. 1.1 and a slight nudge to the left and then an even slighter nudge back to the right aaaand nope that was too fast... the knob is the one thing the Mignon does badly. But it's okay.
X-Pro would be my choice today but the Q2 has been a faithful filter grinder for years now and I'll probably gift it to someone as ab excuse to get a slightly fancier 1Z. And it's a breeze to grind not like the old manual ones that felt like crushing stone and screeched like a dying cat.
@@221b-l3t Hey thanks for the recommendation! I like the idea.
So I replaced my niche zero and fellow ode with this grinder. To me, it’s a great balance of making great filter coffee, as well as bodied espresso, which is what I was looking for. I immediately noticed my filter coffee was better than either the fellow ode and the zero. It also makes it really easy to clean the burrs, so I do it much more often. If that’s your use case, I think it’s a great all in one product. But admittedly, it might be a niche one. :)
Thanks for commenting this, I’m somewhat similar, I’ve bought a duo but it’s not here yet. Are you able to elaborate on the difference you noticed between ode 2 and duo filter burr? Cheers!!
1:06, Trespass is among the peak (albeit quite different) of early Genesis. Will die on that hill.
Came here specifically for a discussion about early Genesis. Controversial opinion no.2: Wind and Wuthering also has its moments.
Indeed! 'From Genesis to Revelation' was the scribbles of teenagers learning to play.
Good on you for turning the top ring counterclockwise to locate the beginning of the thread before tightening the ring!
Sounds like you need to get your hands on the Timemore Sculptor 078 now
I have the 78 and 78s and I think I'm done
@@nickpelayo3172 any noticeable difference in the 78 and 78s? A preference?
@@nickpelayo3172 do you like both machines?
Spraying my beans before grinding makes such a big difference in retention and static - so much less mess both in my hand and electric grinder. (I do occasionally have to tap the electric grinder to stop beans sticking)
Awesome and a little shocking as I've been waiting for you to review the Duo James. I purchased my Zero in July 2021 when we had to check for inventory daily LoL. I found a very nice heavy rubber bellows on Etsy that comes with a little clip to keep the microswitch depressed. Allowing for hot loading. As I only make espresso I will be hanging onto my Zero, thanks again.
I had a CEADO E37Z naked which unfortunately arrived twice damaged and it was just gorgeous to use. Al be it broken. Returned the second one and bought a WW EG-1 and never looked back. Interestingly I use the ULF burrs for my filter. Think it brings out more clarity. Thank you for another great video.
Have never clicked on a review this fast
Hahaha yes! That was me too 😂
I love this channel. I do have a coffee grinder , Im quite happy with, I dont intent to buy a new one - yet still I love these videos.
On a side note. Why are there so many youtube videos on coffee vrewing and coffee equipment, but so few on coffee? I mean, isn't the choice of your coffee the most decisive thing when it comes to whether or not a cup tastes good?
Nitpicks: anyone else want to see a 20 min video of nothing but nitpicks from James? Maybe a special video of nitpicks from life in general?
I would have loved to see the granulometry comparison chart between the filter burr and the Zero...
Thanks for the great video as always, and now I know which one I am going to choose....
I'm here for the Trespass shade
😂 As a fan, can’t say I disagree
I mean, it's not their best album by any means (though I still think it's quite good), but sophomore slump? That assumes that the first album was better, which is...a take.
@@tcmotter yes, the first album is demonstrably worse. But the joke still landed for me, and though Trespass has a few cool moments, they'd get markedly better from then on.
Anyway, most people don't even know about that album, so it was fun to see it!
Trespass so much better than Revelation
@@RebelMagpieOn Revelation, you can tell they were still trying to decide how to get away from their Moody Blues inspiration. Trespass, in my opinion, was the first "real" Genesis album.
I have a niche zero, use it daily to make my coffee (on a moka pot) very nice to use although the coffee beans get stuck in the input funnel when watered which is required if i don’t want grind coffee being spelt all around from the output. Apart from that and given the reasonable price and the great looks, using it is a lovely everyday day experience.
I can't fathom how people are experiencing coffee flying everywhere when grinding with the Niche Zero. I've never had this issue, or I've just never noticed it after using it for two years now. Might be because I am grinding coarser for pour overs and immersion brewing.
@@Amandus. That's because different beans behave differently, and yes your grind setting matters
@@Amandus. I grind strictly espresso with my Niche and I don't have a problem with coffee flying everywhere either. Maybe it's because I'm in the Midwest where the humidity is a little higher than most of the country. Not really sure why some Niches do and some don't.
@@illiniwoodI do live in Norway which has air humidity levels up in the 90% region (85% today) as well.
That particle analysis is crazy! You had one job, niche.
Truly they fixed what wasn't broken
I have the Niche zero. Fellow makes a really nice 3 micron mesh filter called the shimmy. Makes removing the fines super easy.
So glad for this review and when Buying my ODE 2 I struggled with if I should wait for this one. Fantastic grinder but thanks for reinforcing for me at least that I made the right choice in the ODE 2 (I’m filter coffee only )
I miss these review videos
So glad my fomo is relieved. I love my niche zero, but of course I was curious about the duo. I use the zero mostly for filter brews, but also for occasional espressos, and it has been very satisfying for both uses. I am not surprised that the flat burrs for filter on the duo give better results, but it seems clear this would not really work for my needs, as I do like to make espresso from time to time and I sure as heck am not going to swap the burrs to do that. So I will stick with my zero and continue to be happy.
Thanks for the great review!
I hate the blue too. Haha. It’s the first thing I noticed when it launched. Great review as always!
Love these videos James, my only question is, which electric grinder would you say is the best value for purely filter coffee without going to crazy prices?
Love the jumper 😍
Very glad that I bought the Zero a few during Thanksgiving. Thanks, James! Sounds like I didn't miss anything and saved some money.
I’m sorry but Trespass is far superior to From Genesis To Revolution. You could argue that Trespass is actually Genesis’s true first album (stylistically anyway)
Just watched 20min of this video and I enjoyed it so much even though I am very little interested of the subject😂 Great job, James!
It never fails, to me coffee is coffee. Yet I still love watching these videos.
I'm about to watch this video even though I already own a Niche Zero for espresso, and I have no plans on replacing or updating it any time soon because it meets all my needs. This is a valuable use of my time.
I do agree with James here. Even though it's just one screw and a minute or two of screwing, I can't see myself constantly changing burr sets. Doing espresso every morning already takes me around 15 minutes, so the relative cost of 3 minutes is a 20% increase in the time I spend every morning. I just don't see that much value in adding another step to my morning workflow. I own the Decent Espresso DE1, so changing the brewing profile or grind size or dose has a huge impact on the flavor output. If I want something different, I'll be able to use different beans or a different brewing profile to get a better taste, rather than spending minutes changing out a burr set.
That being said, having user replaceable burrs is quite nice. I can see the long term maintenance value of having easily replaceable burr sets. But I can't see spending hundreds of dollars just to avoid changing out a few screws every few years. Definitely an interesting option for people with lots of money to spend on coffee, but I think I'm already at my coffee spending limit with my current equipment. Right now I'm focusing on trying out more types of beans, and practicing with brewing profiles, rather than trying to upgrade my equipment. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of getting better at brewing, and it costs me relatively little.
Trespass is an amazing album. That is all.
Came to the comments to say exactly this!
It’s definitely better than their first
When I bought my ECM classika it came with a mid wight metal tamper. I took the hopper off my Ceado E37S grinder and placed the ECM tamper over the grinder funnel opening- and presto! single dose grinder ;)
Um, partially. Check about retention and how to get it out
Needing a screwdriver is a downer to me. They should engineer a quick change system, to make it more versatile.
Quick change is terrible for perfect tolerances. Quick change systems generally rely on slop to make it work properly. Not necessarily impossible but close enough
@@skeetsmcgrew3282 good point there
James, as you talked about wanting a bigger dosing cup, your coffee cup was standing just next to the grinder and my intrusive thoughts just got the best of me😬
Never been this early, oh my
I’m a Niche Zero owner. My next grinder is likely to be the Mazzer Philos. I want the alignment of metal, not plastic. I also want a controlled feed rate of an auger, and the ability to clean the grinder without touching the alignment or getting grinds into the adjustment threads.
Plastic? Where do you see any parts within Niche Duo relevant for alignment, made of plasic?
@@Martin-i8o8n - Aren’t the burr carriers plastic on the Duo?
@@JonFairhurst Of course not. The carriers are made of an aluminum alloy, the part you are talking about is only the cover over it (blue for filter or black for espresso)
Weirdly this review made me very happy, I was worried I would get some sort of fomo from owning the zero and wanting the duo but you just laid my fears to rest.
I am very happy with my Niche Zero and will probably stay happy with it for a long time still to come.
I would have loved to see you compare espresso made with the filter burrs.
And to see the particle size analyser of the fulter burrs too
Thanks James, appreciate the review. Now that this grinder didn’t deliver on your expectation (great allrounder for espresso & v60), are there any alternatives that you are aware of? (Aside from that 3k+ monstrosity 😉)
“Thank you so much for watching, and I hope you have a great day.” I look forward to that tag line every time. It feels so genuine.
James, I’m thinking the best solution is for you to team up with Niche or produce your own grinder.
i have zero idea if comment under month old video will be read, but i can give suggestions for swaping burrs... hopper could be pop-in type, but that could cause problems with grind setting, since it could lose it's alignment... but thing that should be doable is making burrs a set, so you can pull out single part and swap that, screwdriver would be needed to disassemble it instead of swapping bottom burr, that ought to make whole process way easier
Hey James, thank you for this - as an owner (a happy owner!) of the Niche Zero I've been curious about this new grinder. I'm particularly interested in the filter burr set. From your particle analysis of the espresso burrs I felt like an upgrade would be... well, not an upgrade. But unless I zoned out, I didn't see a similar analysis of the particle size from the filter burr set - is there's a marked difference and a more consistent distribution as you would expect?
Moved from Fellow opus with conical burrs to Niche duo with flat burrs and aside from workflow improvements and almost zero retention, i felt the extraction of the beans initially felt slightly muted.
I thought this is because its due to unseasoned burrs on my new Niche duo, but im not sure if it is now. Still feeling a bit muted after using it for 1 month and few kgs.
I do love the quality of the espresso it produces though and man the workflow just feels such an upgrade
If you looking for a a better espresso and pour over setup I recommend the DF83V Variable Speed Coffee Grinder which is a 83mm burr setup as well at $799. Not to mention multiple burr sets available like the Sweet Labs 83mm which does both espresso & pour over the best in my opinion or go SSP MP 83mm which is another great option. The best thing I like about the DF83V it has the variable speed motor which is awesome for pour overs less fines. You can switch the stock dosing cup with a Blind Tumbler that will hold 40g with ease. This has been my best upgrade for end results and work flow. Don’t think of DF83V being poorly built it is not zero issue extremely solid build.
James, love your understanding espresso videos! Any chance you can make a video about different cup styles impacting espresso experience? Thanks!
That was my impression as well. Same for espresso as the Zero, way better for filter with the filter burr. Do keep in mind that it’s easier with this grinder to go back and forth if you’re trying new burrs and want to compare in quick succession.
It needs speed control. I have a df83v and so far is working well for espresso and filter. But i'm very early on with it. Just set it to 500rpm and probably wont change it for a while.
I love the sweater you are wearing in this. Looks like looking down into my grinder and seeing the freshly ground filter coffee :D