The Legendary Lord that BUTCHERS Warhammer Lore - Total War Warhammer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- The writing, voice acting, and implementation of Throgg the Troll King in Total War Warhammer Mortal Empires completely missed the point of the character and butchers established Warhammer Fantasy lore. Let's discuss how it misses the mark, and why it's important moving further into the combined campaign for Total War Warhammer 3.
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When I found out Throgg was supposed to be a well spoken intellectual in contrast with his appearence I was actually heartbroken, they had such an interesting character to bring to life and they just assasinated him. I hope they'll redo his voices eventually, even if I don't know how much I want to believe in that
I wonder how hard it would be to mode in new voice lines.
@@DaemonPrimarch Audio modding is highly limited, though its possible to replace sound files. There is a mod on the workshop looking for a Throgg voice actor to give him new lines, though I'm not sure anything ever came of it.
If we look back at trolls and giants from various folklores and myths, a key character of them was often that they were highly intelligent. E.g. Utgard-Loki who was a great illusionists. Or the cyclops, who depending on the version, either had their own society or were even the main craftsmen of the weapons of the greek gods.
I highly appretiate seeing these creatures as intelligent and cunning, especially as much of modern fantasy goes the big=dumb route way too often. Thus I also miss my smart Throgg
They Absolutely will not lmao
"I was heartbroken"
Fuckin cringe dude. It's just a video game ffs.
don't forget Wulfrik, whose role and ability are changed, turning him into a infantry killing specialist on mammoth instead of a duelist. He has no gift of tongue, hunter of champion is an all around hex debuff that benefit all friendly units instead of just Wulfrik, and his campaign mechanic does not allow him teleport around the map, nor does he receive quests to slay certain champion by the chaos gods themselves.
SFO fix all of this.
Speaking of Gift of Tongues, allways though Wulfrik deserved way better diplomacy voice lines to represent that.
They could’ve had gift of tongue work similar to rampage except the target only attacks him and have it limited to heroes and lords.
It would be cool for wulfrik to be able to see the location of legendary lords to go on his epic duels.
@@DerOrk Especially when they make mention of his ability to challenge others in their language in the loading-screen lore.
Throgg is suppose to be like Smaug. Both surround themselves with the trappings, territory and possessions of a king, without exactly knowing what to DO with them. They’re also just as eager to accept a challenge of riddles as they are to eat you. You WILL be eaten in the end, but still.
Throgg chuckled, the escape of pressure before an eruption, a volcanic pledge.
‘I have another riddle for you, Max. I am your best friend and your worst enemy, I am privy to your darkest secrets and yet still they surprise me, I know every man you know, but not one of them knows me.’ A pause, a weighted challenge. ‘Who am I?’
@@DerOrk oooh I have read that book but doesnt remeber the answer. What is the answer? 😀
@@sytlig ‘You are me,’ said Max softly
Gotrek fighting Throgg in his treasure room was an amazing scene. As the fight goes on, Throgg is getting more enraged that Gotrek is breaking precious paintings and statues than he is at taking damage in the fight.
It's really sad what happened to Throgg. Hell, he could have had a cool "Mage hunting" mechanic where he takes defeated mages prisoner in an attempt to make more trolls like himself, with the eventual reward being Troll units with high leadership and a sort of "disciplined" trait to show that these are finally successfully enlightened trolls like Throgg. God I pray he gets some touch up unique to himself if Norsca ever gets reworked.
I like the enlightened trolls quest idea. The lazy solution would be to replace all Fimir with troll versions of those units (maybe make Throgg unable to recruit Fimir so he has a difficult Skarsnik-style campaign), keep all the special abilities except for 'From the Mist' (replaced with regen).
Or other troll characters possibly
could come with a major rework of norsca.
So glad you made a video on this. Throgg has always been a favorite of mine and I held on to hope that someone would change his voice with mods but that day never came.
Iirc At least in 1 and 2 voice files were near impossible to find and mess with
My headcanon is that Throgg is so intelligent he pretends to be an idiot so his opponents lower their guard.
Do you guys have any spare copium btw?
Want some of mine?
Sorry, used up all of mine a while back with Activision/Blizzard.
No, all used because of Lizardmen state in Warhammer 2
Warhammer 3 hit like a truck, im all out of mine bro
You could explain his battle speeches as he's adressing trolls. Eloquent speech would just confuse them.
Considering Norsca should be a great candidate for a Beastmen-level rework, particularly with their close proximity to the Chaos wastes interacting with so many new factions, hopefully if the community really pushes for a lore overhaul on Throgg we can make this happen. Not gonna be high priority, but I can see it happening in a year or two if they actually start listening to content creators as promised.
I'd love it if they did. Does seem like a lot of effort to please a comparatively small part of the community though. Also the lore-enthousiasts aren't really as 'loud' (by lack of better wording, English is 2nd language x]) as the people raging and throwing tantrums on the reddit and the TW forums. I'm probably a bit biased, but it seems like the two parts of the community have at least a 10 year age gap.
You know his voice lines remind me a lot of trundle from league of legends… I wonder if they saw “a troll king that’s much smarter than regular trolls” and thought they’d just go the same route as trundle than what throgg actually is.
whats sad is trundle's rework made his dialogue very smart. So even league of legends is doing throgg better than warhammer
@@CornRecords972 Hard no. They replaced a brave highly regenerating troll who took curse to save his tribe, to a brute ice king who serves Dark Powers(Lissandra). So, they ripped off Throgg before Throgg came to be in TWW.
The thing with Trundle though is that he actually wants his enemies to think that he is just some dumb troll. His backstory explicitly tells us how he became king by being smart and his abilities all have some kind of 'subtle' or 'subversion' element to them.
Meanwhile Throgg uses his intelligence and shows it off but got done dirty by CA in the game.
You made my heart hurt. Trundle was my guy back in the day. Then they "updated" him...
@@ZergleJerk “time to troll!”
When TWW3 came out a lot of people pointed out that Kostaltyn had gotten a similar treatment, since the art portrayed him a lot more benevolent than the crazy version that went into the game. Almost like someone last minute wanted to make him a more obvious antagonist to the Ice Court rather than a legitimate alternative interest. Feels pretty similar to the Throgg thing, like a last minute adjustment of existing art and writing towards a more one-dimensional character.
Overall Kislev feels somehow like a joke faction compared to others. Bears, bears everywhere. Where are european bison? Where are ice dragons? Where are brown bear?
I dunno what happened while they were writing him but there's such a disonance between his cinematic nad him ingame
@@indrickboreale7381 Same goes for Cathay, DRAGONS DRAGONS DRAGONS, DRAGONS MIXED WITH PEGASUS
@@axelNodvon2047 Not really. Cathay is rather new country in Warhammer. It isn't fleshed out realm yet. Unlike Kislev
@@saggi201 Even in game, his faction isn't realized; he can recruit ice witches (who ride bears) despite being against the convent, no unique units or mechanic, what a shame. He would have been better served as a DLC character, where CA could have fleshed him out a bit more and given him a proper mechanic, and simply included Boris next to Katarin as the starting LLs.
Throgg is on par with gorilla-Grodd. If a character offers Grodd a banana, he is offended, just as Throgg is offended by being used as purely a monstrous warrior
If Norsca gets content at any point that doesn't include a Throgg overhaul it's going in the book.
They have wronged us...
I don't like Greasus' look at all. He should be on an opulent throne carried by gnoblars, with gold coins up to his knees. If the tech is there, even make a "slime trail" (like Ku'Gath) with coins falling off behind him.
Instead he looks like a joke character for your stereotypical walmart mobility scooter user thrust into a medieval fantasy setting.
I really like Zhao Ming but it seems like they did not go far enough in making him seem truly corrupted by Warpstone. There's hints here and there that he is a little off, but for the most part he just seems like what I imagine a centuries old shapeshifter ruler would act like (extremely prideful), but a bit desperate to seek validity from his father (which I definitely like that aspect of his character, its unique).
I don't think he should seem truly corrupted by warpstone. Hes already very different compared to many other dragons (all being prideful and cold, while he in description is someone who shares drinks and jokes with his human companions). There are signs that he is off, but overall, hes probably the nicest ruler in Cathay, which is one of the biggest difference between him and almost any other legendary lord currently in Warhammer 3
Honestly I think Zhao Ming and Kostaltyn show a problem with the original characters in game 3; they have an interesting idea there but they need to push it significantly further for the characters to be interesting.
Look up the greasus reskin mod It's fucking amazing. Made me actually want to start a campaign as him this time because I couldn't stand the way he looked like you said
@@Guaguadeath agreed. Even though he’s not supposed to walk, because he’s too rich to walk, I’d much rather have him walk than ride a mobility scooter. It just reeks of not putting in the same amount of effort or being rushed, and I kinda figured that would happen if they were made the preorder.
Its definitely not an excuse because CA should already do plenty on what modders accomplish and not take this Bethesda approach they've had but there are mods to remedy this. ChaosRobie has Gnoblars carry him around on a wood board with all his gold. As for someone who desired him to walk, there is a mod for that as well that gives him a really badass look. They should both be on the most popular page in the workshop right now
Maybe a voice actor could channel their best Hannibal Lecter and give Throg some better voice lines.
Benedict Cumberbatch has shown he can play intelligent monsters, considering how he played Smaug. Bring him in to give Throgg a voice.
Hell, keep the old voices, but have it be the less intelligent, more bestial lines come from the mouth on his gut
They're not paying for that
Malekith is an intensely fascinating character to me who felt like he was never quite done justice.
His arc seems to set up for a perfected Kylo Ren: a conflicted character who rules his land in a nuanced fashion, and operates according to a twisted code of morals. With the lessons in generalship, personal combat and elven honor he learned from his father, as well as statecraft, sorcery and manipulation from his mother on top of his long life, he would be one of the most well-educated, well-rounded and intelligent rulers in Warhammer. In other words, there’s room for a true ‘lawful evil’ ruler, with an opportunity for subtlety that we rarely see in the series.
Imagine Naggaroth not as a blasted wasteland full of slaves and wolves, but as a near-paradise, transformed from its nearly untameable state by the hand of a capable ruler who is even still grinding his teeth because his kingdom, built from his own sweat and blood, can never quite match the opulence and grandeur of Ulthuan, the Empire, or Brettonia due to their dearth of natural resources.
Imagine a skilled diplomat who knows, after the accumulated experience of thousands of years, when to pick up the pen and when to use the sword. He rules as a Machiavellian prince. Perhaps not particularly loved his subjects and the outside world, but respected; for his ruthlessness, cunning, and administrative prowess carved the druchii out a kingdom from nothing.
Imagine that the druchii, instead of being wholly obsessed with betrayal and backstabbing, were actually competent in some ways, Malekith’s rulership allowing the arts and scientific innovations to flourish somewhat, even in Naggarond’s harsh and hostile climate.
Everyone knows, however, that Naggarothi citizens are only kept from reverting to their bloodthirsty nature by the iron fist of her ruler, and imagine Ulthuan’s desperation to remove Maliketh from the picture and plunge the north into anarchy.
Finally, imagine the conflict and dissonance that must rage within Malekith at wanting to reclaim his birthright vs. upholding the kingdom he has now. Who has to navigate the conflict between his obsession for revenge and the duty he has to his people. The delicate balance he has to keep in between managing his people, remembering his fathers principles, dealing with his mothers’ manipulation, and convincing the world stage that he’s a legitimate ruler. What kind of effect does that have on someone after thousands of years? Perhaps we see hints of instability and insecurity in this great ruler. One who’s conflicted between the right choice and the expedient one, that takes him farther from his goals. It’s a fascinating question to me.
Instead he’s kind of turned into Badguy Mcbad, and is really evil for no reason and it’s really unclear how he manages to rule such a vast empire where half the population is killed at happy hour every week.
He’s prime material for an almost GoT type novel full of subtlety and intrigue, but I doubt we’ll ever see anything like this in the future.
Fascinating but it's not Malekith, he's chaotic evil if you want to try and wedge someone into a stupid alignment system
@@chrisporter8120 True I don’t love the alignment system, but you get the idea. It’s good for quick communication.
I know my ideas are not really true to his character as GW wrote him, but that’s kind of the point. I think Malekith is a missed opportunity to make a different kind of villain in a universe where basically every villain is chaotic evil because “The chaos gods pissed on my goldfish last week. I MUST BURN EVERYTHING”.
Still think his design is awesome though, and dark elves are one of my favorite factions. I love them despite the fact that they seem like a bunch of edgy 14-olds.
@@martyparty52 Truee! I also fail to see how the hell can Naggaroth even closely rival Ulthuan when they have a lot worse climate, less recourses and are obsessed with selfish goals, betrayals and murders. Such a society has no realistic chance to amount to anything since they would implode on themselves, meanwhile they have been defeated so many times and for some reason their numbers are endless lol, also there is no real explanation as to WHY would those people even picked to side with Malekith, other then a dictatorship what else can he provide them? I understand their minds were corrupted by the Sword of Khaine that Anerion wielded in the presence of their ancestors but still... How can they be selfish af but then loyal to a single cause at the same time? - Two completely opposite things. Not to mention that they were blasted to hell when Malekith's spell was flung back at him from the Great Vortex. :]
I mean we already have 1-dimensional races like the Orcs and Skaven, Ogres who have absolutely no redeeming qualities and are just there to be assholes lol.
@Ivanus59 how are Skavens 1 dimensional?
Sigvald is a character that I think also has some problems. Despite being a character known for finesse and beauty, they gave him the same animation set as a basic chaos warrior. I hate watching him wield his rapier like it’s some heavy cleaver, and I’ve heard that in lore he’ll hover over the ground because it’s beneath him to walk.
This is largely just a symptom over CA not being as good at character design back then as they are now, but I do hope we can see him in all his splendor someday.
I think that CA assumed trolls didn't speak at all whatsoever or anything and just made grunting sounds and whatnot. So then an "intelligent" troll to them is how they made throgg, who could speak like how you'd think a troll might and lead an army and called it a day
A giant-well-spoken Troll with glowing eyes, sitting on a Throne in a cold dark big room is very terrifying when you think about it
i would pay for them to redo throggs voicelines and just remake him from the ground up to be lore friendly, game 3 should tie all loose ends on every mistake they've made in the previous games. This is the last warhammer fantasy tw we're getting. they need to go all out, in fact i would argue they owe it to us as a community.
How do you know that it’s the last TW war hammer game?
@@kluasvt828 because CA said it is a trilogy
Here's an idea. His plotline in the game is that he's trying to get his crown back, the thing that makes him intelligent. Have it so before he gets it back he sounds like this, then afterwards he has a new voice more befitting him.
@@kluasvt828 It's the last TW warhammer fantasy game but they could do a 40k and even an age of sigmar game as well
Instead they made another bunch of mistakes. Nice !
I don't now the Lore well but I heard he was supposed to be smart/sophisticated. was wondering what was going on with his in-game persona. Thanks for explaining and shining some light on this!
That final image of Throgg and Sigvalf seems very revealing to me. Didn’t Throgg beat Sigvald into a pulp and urinate on his corpse during the End Times?
He certainly doesn’t look this intelligent according to these stories. So I guess CA misrepresented him based on GW’s own misrepresentation of one of their lesser known characters
Throgg is intelligent, but that doesnt mean he still has beastly habbits. He urinated on Sigvalds corpse, because Sigvald, as a Champion of Slaanesh, was a pretty boy, and so Throgg pissed on him to dishonor and insult him
We really bringing up endtimes lore as "good examples"?
@@tincano-beans2114 throgg piss was the only good part of the end times. it was a good end for sigvald's story
Today I just found out that Throgg pisses on Sigvald's corpse and that's awesome
@Evan Mauger Well I don’t know, I don’t think he sounds *that* stupid even in the TW games.
From your comment though, it feels like this still could be a basis from which CA built the character instead of the Black Library Novels. He looks more like the average Chaos Lord here, petty, vengeful and quite beastly, rather than the tortured philosopher Indypride describes
I didn't know much about Throgg, i knew he was the Troll King, and had a Crown that he wore on his tusk that made him intelligent.
But I never played him in total war, because he just seemed like, a Troll
If his intro thing had him spouting some Philosophy. I would 100% have played him immediately
A troll that speaks like a Victorian Gentleman, hell yeah I'm seeing whats going on with that properly
His crown isn't what makes him intelligent. It's pretty much just an ordinary crown. His intelligence was the result of a mutation from the Dark Gods, hence why he follows them
Same reason as everything else they screw up: CA is too big, and their communication is broken. A passionate and talented employee does hours of research and writes Throgg's quotes, then an exec meets an aspiring actor at a male strip club and offers him a role in the "new game I'm making" and lets him do all the writing and voice acting, suppressing all internal complaints and suggestions.
I feel like a lot of the characters in W3 have this issue. Zhuao Ming sounds bored, Kairos sounds actually sane which threw me off, Greasus is a shrewd talker. Don’t get me started on how grating Kostaltin is, for Warhammer 1-2 characters I don’t have as many complaints except for Throgg. Great video.
I mean, Greasus is supposed to be shrewd and cunning for an ogre, isn't he? He manages to bribe enemies and make even a greater fortune than most ogres because he knows more besides just eating and killing without thinking about anything else (Though he is still an ogre so his thinking doesn't go too far either)
@@versok2999 exactly, he’s like a loan shark pretty much, and he doesn’t have any of the charm I think the Warhammer worlds biggest mobster deserves
@@versok2999 Yep. Also sounding sane dosent mean that he is sane and remember that he is still the greatest of the lords of change and a greater daemon of tzeench, Imagine that the only reason he would seem more insane after the coming out out of the wheel is because his two heads have a bit of a disconnect as both can't see in the "now" so they can't speak like a normal person.
Just take skaven voice acting from mark of chaos and compare it to total war. CA didnt make justice to the setting in the voice acting department.
One game 2 voice that kinda bugs me is Sniktch. Dunno why, but it just doesn't sound right. I think his voice is just so much lower than any other Skaven that weirdly it ends up sounding comical rather than threatening.
When I first got into total war warhammer (2, I came in to the series fairly late), norsca called to me as a faction. I love the monsters, I love the trial-by-strength/combat viking-style marauders, and my love of werewolves in general sealed the deal when I saw skinwolves for the first time.
But, knowing next to nothing about the lore, I only ever played Wulfrik. I wasn't a fan of what appeared to be just a stronger version of the trolls. I don't like having an army of competent men and mindless monsters being led by a sub-par mind (orks get a pass on this because they're idiots across the board).
If Throgg had been done justice, if we had gotten to see the fire in those eyes the lore material sparked in him, I might have thought differently. I might have enjoyed a Throgg campaign or two.
Same
would have been cool if wulfrik could speak different tongues when addressing certain factions during diplomacy.
There's a few things in Mortal Empires that totally miss the mark. First of all, there's also the issue of Throgg's body. His model is shredded, in stark contract to the dumpy gut that every other troll has. It's obviously a cost and time saving measure to just reuse a regular troll as the base for Throgg, but it's still something that could and should have been done right.
Next up is the biggest pet peeve of mine: Vlad von Carstein's face. He looks like he was just dug up from a shallow grave and has been rotting for a week. If you look at his model and all of his art, he's not supposed to look like rotting corpse; Vlad is supposed to look like bat-faced monster. Admittedly the art can look confusing and inconsistent. But if you look at the model, the primary source CA uses when designing in-game models, Vlad has no wounds on his face and his nose is flattened and upturned like a bat's. His cheeks don't have holes in them, they're sunken and gaunt. There's the additional problem of his sword, which appears to be a small rapier or broadsword in-game while Blood Drinker is supposed to be a massive great sword. Like Throgg, this was clearly a money and time saving measure: Vlad is clearly based off of the Empire General and shares animations with him and was the first FLC lord at a time when the game was much smaller in scope. But it's something that both could and should have been done better.
Then there's Alith Anar's voice. Dylan Sprouse is a fine voice actor, but he simply doesn't have the voice to sell an Elf that even the Witch King himself fears. He comes off more like an edgy teen trying to sound like the scary killer in the shadows. There's just frankly nothing intimidating about his voice and I find the character worse off for it. Something more akin to the voice of Celebrimbor in the Shadow of War games would have fit High Elf Punisher much better. There's also the minor issue of his head just looking... weird. It's too big or maybe misshapen or something, but it doesn't look right.
Can you make a video about Nakai, in the lore he was portrayed to be also an Albino spawning, and had a magical weapon called the Sacred blade of quetzl with also Forest powers. Now he's stuck being a very bad lord.
man this makes me want to see throgg return in age of sigmar either abandoning chaos for the great troll hordes or as a new chaos beast leader
I never knew how interesting Throgg was supposed to be, I thought he was just smart by troll standards. I really liked the character in game but knowing more about him now I can't help but hope he'll get a retouch to bring him up to scratch.
thanks so much for covering throgg. he is easily my favourite lord and faction in the game despite the arguably immense gameplay problems. i really love his 'monsters and madmen' line but one line of dialogue doesn't make up for his actual character to be completely devoid of origin.
Yeah, CA did him dirty. But you have to admit, "serpent-sluts" is a wicked sharp insult and would be fitting for lore Throgg to utter. Let us hope that even if CA doesn't rework his voicelines, that we are eventually able to mod in something more fitting his lore.
Maybe too crude. "Serpent-slatterns" has more of an intellectual ring to it.
It's kinda weird that pretty much all the "bad guys" in TW Warhammer have that gravely distorted voice. Some more so than others, but they're all really shades of the same voice style. When I think of iconic villain voices, there are so many other types that spring to mind; soft spoken, manipulative ones like Thrawn, deep, commanding tones like Vader, sarcastic and cruel voices like Scar, maniacal sadists like the Joker, the list goes on. Don't get me wrong, there absolutely are characters who should speak like that, such as Skarbrand, but really the only ones that truly break the mould are the Skaven.
Also N'kari in WH3. Feels weird to have this Ancient Demon who is supposed to be the personification of alien, terrifying Grace and Beauty talk like an Orc or Troll. I mean, his faction is literally called "Seducers of Slaanesh", that doesn't really match well with a rough and hard voice.
I'd have loved for Slaaneshi demons to have some layered voicelines; both male and female.
And not to mention Be'lakor. His voice and model in-game are not bad by any means, but to have one identical to the new model (which looks much more majestuous, intelligent and intimidating at the same time) and a voice more like the Dark Lord from Doom Eternal would have been more appropiate
@@felixsylvester4266 that's (imo) one of the most effective ways to convey a strange alien tone in voicework. If you've ever played Vermintide 2 and heard the Tzeentch laughter they have in that game, you'll know how effective it can be.
I think Sigvald the magnificent has a pretty unique and character appropriate voice/demeanour.
@@RandomerThings96 I mean he's not supposed to sound too menacing. He's Dark Gods' punching bag after all
Also, they did Khalida dirty. She, as a human was capable of going toe to toe with not only a vampire but the mother of all vampires and quite possibly THE sinle strongest vampire in the history of the setting, push her to her limits and then deny her blood kiss. But in game she is a wet noodle, loses to some hybrid melee mage casters and is a massive disappointment. When they add Neferata I hope they overhaul her and do sumn about that pathetic excuse of a Khalida interpretation.
While his dialog is quite well spoken, i do imagine how much more terrifying he would be if he spoke these words in the voice we hear in the game, also It's my own head cannon that in war he speaks like a savage only so any survivors of the enemy armies won't tell of his true intellect because he wants his foes to underestimate him
Imagining how terrifying it would be to see a Troll coming at you with this gigantic hammer.
And then, it starts speaking poetically to you like a Victorian Gentleman
@@kharnthebetrayer8251 "I have often pondered precisely on the nature of souls, on whether ghosts are truly the remnant of a deceased person's spirit or if they are merely the imprint of a tragic death upon the ether. I suppose you will be my next active experiment in this field: I shall begin by pulping your feet, moving upward until you eventually expire. And we shall see if such horror creates a ghost."
All said in that rumbling burble while he hefts his giant-ass hammer.
Thank you for covering this.
I truly believe CA were going to make him intelligent, or at least closer to what he is in the lore. But higher ups in the company vetoed this decision, they didnt believe people would buy a DLC featuring a intelligent troll, which is just ludicrous.
I'm mostly shocked GW let this through. When Vermintide 2 added their new Warrior Priest career, they wouldn't give him the option of a singular flail due to lore restrictions, but they'll let CA completely change/destroy Throgg?
I somehow doubt there was some high-level conspiracy against Throgg. CA just missed the mark.
@@Shotgunkjell perhaps they learned from the Throgg mistake.
What basis does that idea have?
@@Donnie8888 Maybe so, haha. I'd certainly hope so, especially considering that this mess is a considerable step above just letting someone use another weapon. the WP in Vermintide can even use a flail + shield, just not the flail alone.
🫡 I weep for the troll man. He was a good lad, may he be remembered for his brains, and how they contrasted his brawn.
Warhammer total war hasn’t been the best at representing characters (Grimgor, Orion, teclis, queek,etc.) but it did open my eyes to others and reading up about them. Such as wolfruk who I knew almost nothing about but after playing as him I was bored overall but after researching and reading his novel I found him to be extremely fun to read about. If it wasn’t for warhammer tw I wouldn’t have known much about them so I’ll take them being poor takes on the characters because it’ll give me a chance to learn more about them after playing them then not having them at all.
I felt like tomb kings were bland and too similar as well. They made all the minor factions hollow I think, personally.
The fact Throgg went so far to try and find a way to make more of his race gain the wits he himself possesses, only to murder the one and only specimen that achieved that end mere seconds after meeting it in an impulsive fit of envy and selfishness toward another of his kind sharing that intelligence, _as it is blubbering and crying like an infant now that its simple animal worldview had been corrupted and broken by such a raw force,_ hits me in a profound and incredibly disturbing way.
All that waxing philosophy and ranting Throgg pontificates on about his admittedly selfless goal to raise his kind, already enthralled to his unnatural will, from the stupid beasts they are and always have been... undone in a mere moment by one of the more human of emotions in its purest and most malefic form wriggling its way to the fore of his freakishly intelligent, yet still all-too bestial brain. Reading that passage in _Kinslayer_ wrung my guts about for some reason.
I'd have been fine with Throgg's voice if he still spoke eloquently. The dichotomy of a rumbling, guttural creature barely able to properly enunciate words but he speaks with biting insight and can needle you with some ancient historical fact that your people had hidden out of shame. But he ripped it from a library his forces sacked and read it over the shoulder of his royal page-turner. Because of course he has a royal page-turner with mitts like those.
If he was so a troll king, you’d think he’d be able to recruit better units instead of Neanderthals you see in Tariff videos 😂😂
They did him so dirty 😂
actually, it's the very-reason WHY he WOULDN'T be able to recruit "better-units", he's basically the only intelligent individual among his entire race.
he wouldn't be able to recruit anyone smarter than a monke, because, well they're about as "smart" as you can get in Norsca
Despite everyone saying that Kinslayer is a bad book, the part that i liked the most was all the Throgg parts, he is super smart and knows that people think that all Trolls are stupid so he plays with them using that idea and taking them by surprise, i really want him to be a well spoken gentleman when the Norsca update comes
FINALLY a big platform voice speaking about my bois terminal brain freeze 🙌
For those just joining us there is a voice pack mod that is perfect that changes throgg to how he should be
Would be good to have a video from you on how you think they should handle nagash in game 3. Campaign pack, race pack lord pack etc.
Thank you for covering this subject! Awesome video. As always.
here's my thought's I don't mind Throgg's voice but what he say's always bothered me if I was someone new to this series and saw him in the lord selection I would think oh it's just a bigger stronger dumb troll and I heard him say something very very smart I would be shocked and I would be more interested in him and learning about him and might dive into the novels and other merch. If CA made the characters more like there lore counterpart everyone would be more interested and invest in them.
On top of all this, I wish Throgg got a special trait for defeating Sigvald. His entire implementation is a big F in the chat.
That's the thing, though. CA didn't miss the mark, they _know_ Throgg is supposed to be a very intelligent character, and they _made_ him a very intelligent character. Where they messed up was that they made him intelligent by _troll_ standards, when he's supposed to be the intellectual rival of dwarfen, elven and human scholars.
That’s what I assumed when I first saw throgg in wh1
"Do you know what wiped out the dinosaurs? THE ICE AGE!"
TO BE FAIR, some elements of his lore show that under the well spoken and kingly exterior he is very much a monstruous norse barbarian . The guy pissed on Sigvald's corpse after smashing his face into a pulp just out of spite. But yes... total war's Throgg would have eaten Sigvald or farted or something...
What I want to know is: where is Ulrika in the game? She's a recurring character in the Gotrek and Felix novels, and she has her own trilogy with interesting entanglements with the Lahmians and the von Carsteins.
It would be cool if she could be a Kislevite hero in the game, with an event that turns her into a vampire if you fail to save her ... and then she becomes a hero for the vampire counts ... or maybe the silver pinnacle.
I fully expect her to make an appearance as a legendary hero, similar to Gotrek and Felix. If not with the Neferata DLC, then at least later down the line.
Man you really nailed this one Indy, great job
I feel like Isabella Von Carstein is way too tame in the game. In the books she literally is like a psychopath who killed people because she needed to feel pretty. She was a lunatic for Vlad, and the funny thing was that Vlad never wanted her to become a vampire in the first place. Then when you see her in game she is the most regal and well spoken of the vampire counts. Weird to see someone who was being interrogated in a cell by being huddled in a corner with undying loyalty and trust in Vlad turn into just another lesser and weaker lord.
Those lines you highlighted at 11:00 are not Throgg's lines. They are a diplomacy_strings_string_CHAOS_MrdrChief_Dip_Rejection_Neutral_03
For some reason (bug) Throgg was saying them there.
Didn't know that about my favourite troll and he's gotten even better. thx indie
One guy was working on a mod for it. I even submitted my voice for it but never got back to me 😢
Very glad you did this one, it's true that artist interpretation is allowed to be unique and distinct, but following the tight guidelines between a character already written and how you wish to portray them in your own way should always lean more heavily towards the original character itself, especially as that character you're portraying is written in a way that made it popular in the first place. They Netflixed Throgg lol
"...that you feel completly missed the mark?"
A lot of VC stuff. Like, please, make Vlad/Isabella a legendary hero (depending on the lord you pick), make Mannfred and Kemler a bit less cartoonish, make Krell a legendary hero.
Oh, and Ghorst. Look, i love the memes, and Ghorst for AoS, but let's be serious, he barely even a legendary hero for Mannfred. Turn him into one.
Speaking of 3 game - PLEASE CA make up your mind about Kostaltyn. Is he raving zealot-lunatic or is he actually a smart, patriotic, faithful man, who is, perhaps, sometimes goes to far? He can't be both...
I’d have liked to have seen a bit of Queek chatting to his skulls. I love what they’ve done with him, but there’s none of that, and it’s such a big part of his character.. poor sleek sharpwit. “Queek will remember you”
Also he constantly talks about his trophy rack, but we never get this mechanic so Clan Mors is the most vanilla Skaven faction
@@indrickboreale7381 Fair point.. even if it was just something like Alith Anar's assassination mechanic, some incentive to have Queek hunt down and butcher enemy characters would be great fun.
@@32bitosserc84 Simple mechanic is better than nearly not-existent. Clan Pestilens proves it
@@indrickboreale7381 Very True.. I wish they weren't in such an awful start position so I might actually consider playing them.
That is so cool, I never knew that. I hope CA will remake these voice lines
Is it tough to bring in new voice lines ? I rarely see mods with unique voice lines
in terms of modding? not sure its even possible. TW game audio has been traditionally challenging to mod in the "modern" era from what I understand
It’s technically possible, but extremely difficult due to the program CA uses to compile voice lines. They would need to overhaul many parts of their engine to make it more accessible, so you probably won’t see many voice replacements in the Warhammer series at least
When Throgg talks to his army he is talking to lesser beings, beings that dont understand intellectual talk. I think the army will understand the guttering sillytalk better, rather than what he is capable of, and Throgg knows this.
That's actually a really good point you make there. It would still be nice to see how he was meant to be heard though
To counterpoint, part of Throgg’s character is that he is desperate for intelligent conversation. He hopes and prays that he can make his kin into intelligent, thinking beings, and not be the lone intelligent soul in a race of dumb brutes.
It doesn’t make sense for someone like that to talk dumb to his followers - rather, it makes more sense (and is more tragically ironic) for him to speak to them as if they are intelligent - only to get grunts and vacant expressions in return. That would be a far better characterisation, far more impactful than to speak dumb because it is practical (which it certainly would be).
I can see where you’re coming from, but his voice lines are equally stupid on the diplomacy screen, where he’s not talking to his army. So I don’t think they decided to make him talk dumb for the reason you’ve offered. Otherwise he would say smart things on the diplomacy screen.
Are single entities and ranged units also the most dominant units on tabletop like Total war?
dont think so. Single entities like Dragons would often get taken off the table by Cannons before even entering melee
I expected to see them do a if you are his enemy you see him as a generic brute but if you befriend/play him he is a 200 iq melancholic scholar surrounded by stupid
And i also expected to see 'the great maw' as a giant crator with crudely arranged stone teeth to look like a maw when you play anyone else but the ogre (or just cathay) and the one you have in the game when you play as the ogres
im at Zombieslayer but i just need hint is that Ulrika Magdova?
it is!
do you think Throgg should be fixed? or has he been in for too long to change him?
Teclis the amazing mage which has his weakness being feeble and frail being one of the best tanks on his phoenix (still fast on foot or on horse which they could have given him speed debuffs for th lore) Sigvalds connection with slaanesh and his facination for beauty does not really come forward at all. Morghur one of the most ancient BM and biggest threats to the WE with his reincarnation ater dieing, Grommbindal not bing more a horde like dwarf hero but a permanent dwarf hero. but the most egredious is manlet von Carstein being called mannfred von carstein and the inabilty to change that!
Grommbindal should act like the Green Knight
From what I have read of the Vampire Wars, Vlad comes off as a cartoonish COUNT competing with the Count from Sesame Street at times. In that set of stories the author pulled from traditional stories such as Dracula to give Vlad emotion and depth. The opening chapter is fantastic in showing you that the devil has come, and he has come to claim a kingdom. I agree with your assessment of Throg, always pains me when I hear him trottle off and scream and shout. Some characters come across as you say, the action figure, cause that was how they where designed. I mean Karl Franz has told me to bring him to his men 100000 times. Grimgor wants to be the biggest and meanest. Grom the Paunch I feel was given good voice lines and character when animating this greenskin, he is large and in charge and you feel it. Archeon doesn't have much depth either besides %$^$&#$&* SIGMAR. His book the Everchosen gave him more of a voice but I am not sure how they translate that into TW1-3.
Aren't the text lines for his diplomacy just generic Norscan ones anyways? I don't think that's CA dropping hints to his intelligence, so much as it's just CA not caring about Throgg :/
At least he has a few good lines like "You want to die now, or when my ice age comes!?"
Spot on video, good job Indie!
It would be kind of Cool if he had that same voice sound but with the Elegant words of his lore, like a smart person in a dumb body.
Do you think that maybe Throgg could be fixed in the future.
No one was butched this bad in Total War Warhammer. I really hope they give him a voice line overhaul when Norsca gets it update, he became one of my favorite lords after i learned bout his lore.
I personally love him. He is definitely clever compared to other trolls. The biggest travesty in my mind is that abomination Cylostra Direfin. Good grief CA had a chance to create an awesome character. A drowned siren. She could have had a wonderful ethereal, sad and foreboding character. Instead we got a joke.
We expected amazing, they gave us diabetes
Honestly given how everyone else's dialogue is pretty bare bones and generic save for few exceptions. This didn't infuriate me really but I'm always on board with improvement. I think the best case of in depth dialogue we got is from Yuri. Probably because of the mini narrative they employed. If they mixed the sandbox with loreful objectives to achieve at your LEISURE. Adding some dialogue along the journey and god willing some nifty cutscenes. Even just ingame renders. It would lend a lot to the immersion and character building.
If Throgg is portrayed like he is in the lore in WH3, Norsca would be my go to faction. Just saying.
Spot on analysis and conclusion. Well done.
Great content!
I feel the same way with archeon he looks and sound silly tho at least the text tries to make him threatening
I would claim that the voice acting itself is fine. Throgg is a Troll after all, so he's bound to SOUND guttural and bestial, especially with a mess of tusks like that for a mouth. It's his voice lines that need improving.
Also, did Throgg ever use his vomit attack canonically? Seems like something he'd want to avoid as a self-styled intellectual.
Yes he has used it. Why wouldn't you right?
@@duckheadbob Well, considering that he views himself as a "thinking man", it seems strange to employ something so bestial. Then again, I seem to recall him losing his composure in one of the novels.
Wow I had no ideas about this deep lore I just thought Throg was wulfriks dad or something
I guess ist because we are playing total war warhammer and not total philosophy in form of a deep rpg or some sorts. Still glad that you shed a light of his true persona
I didn't know he called them "serpent sl*ts" lmao 10:00
Kinslayer is such a great book, culminating in snorri gut wrenching doom. Here I go crying again
If I can offer a counterpoint, I think it's important to remember Throgg's appearance in Gotrek and Felix was in the End Times, while TW:WH is set at Karl Franz's coronation. I can't remember where I read it, but I do recall reading that Throgg spent a considerable time just being a rampaging beast, exactly as he is portrayed, BEFORE growing dissatisfied and seeking more for himself and his species. Given CA's (and I'm sure GW's) aversion to using anything End Times in this game, they would have no choice but to use Throgg in his earlier, more bestial form. I don't necessarily agree with this, as End Times Throgg is certainly a more interesting character, but I do understand it.
Interesting point however vlad and Isabella von Carsten died long before the game but they added them. They were added because of the rule of cool in spite of it being a major lore break.
@@legiohysterius4624 That's a separate issue I think. They don't seem to have a problem with bending the lore to accommodate characters from the past (Repanse being another example), their beef seems to be about anything from the endtimes storyline.
I think about this on the regular, would've made Throgg immediately so much more interesting, such a cool character as he's originally written its such a shame that he's fumbled the way he is. Really just baffled as to why CA would make such a decision.
Maybe Warhammer 3's numerous delays are because they're trying to re-implement Throgg properly this time?
...Eh, let's face it, we all know they got Chaos Dwarves in the works for release...but they've got to do more bugfixing before they release any paid DLC. Mods have fixed the game for me and even I'm now learning how to mod too; here's hoping CA can bring out something!
For some reason this happens a lot in TWW, Azhag being another big example but a lot of Khorne daemons are also a lot dumber than they should be.
Khorne daemons are really inconsistent in the source material. Sometimes they are eloquent masters of war and brilliant tacticians that use brutality and terror they bring as efficient as possible, sometimes (just kidding, most of the time) they are KILL MAIM BURN murderhobos
yes... ending video with throg and sigvald on screen ticcled my fun bone... (who knows, knows)
Yeah i was massively looking forward to throgg, when it was released i felt insulted... also, now that there are more troll units, he still only has 2 troll units to recruit
Someone at reddit made a post regarding this, it got tons of likes. But the op decided to delete it.... I dont understand why.
I love his character in the gotrek and Felix book
one of the reasons i first played him. was literally the first legendary lord i played in WH2 no cap
Honestly if he was properly displayed in total war, Throgg would be one of my favorite lords....but we get a man who wishes to squash things into meat patties and his oh so favorite "i eat my enemies"
Honestly hope to see a them go back and touch up not only WoC but Norsca as well for TWW3, even if its unlikely. Maybe we get lucky and if it happens they touch up throgg. That or we can always fall back on the hope a modder fixes it.
The lore states that his crown made him smarter over time, and TW takes place well before the end times which is where hes so well spoken.
This isnt out of lore unless you dont know the lore like you thought...
The start date of the campaign is 2502, but using it as where the timeline for TW is, is pretty much pointless. There are hundreds of contradictions that make it clear (as CA have said themselves), that this is a "snapshot" of the Warhammer world, taking the parts and dates that make the most sense for each character on a case by case basis. Which is how Repanse is alive, and Vlad is alive, and Katarin is Ice Queen. Throgg's DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC (the thing that makes him unique as a Troll) is his intelligence, and in game, his writing and voice acting demonstrates almost none of that intelligence. There is nothing in the source material that shows he was stupid in 2502, and if you're going to bring him to life in videogame form, it makes sense to create the elements that actually...you know...make him unique. Especially when it wouldn't have been any more effort
I think they did a Great job with Sisters of Twilight, hope they keep that character, voice and feel on.
Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I think the disconnect here is that (I believe) CA has to model their lord profiles somewhat on what GW has in mind for characters based on their thoughts for how they'll behave in Age of Sigmar when they are (re)introduced into that setting. But who knows, I just heard that from my uncle, who works at Nintendo. Either way, I agree, dude was much cooler in the old world.