It would just be a case of Pat saying he thinks something will happen, or something symbolized something & Max being like "I think you're a bit off base here. What made you think that?" because he's too polite & well-mannered to say "You're so wrong, it's funny."
@skieth9999 I think that idea is interesting, and would play well with Sephiroth further taking advantage of Cloud's trauma/memory repression. It would also go to explain better why Aerith doesn't try to dissuade Cloud from going to meet sephiroth and instead making him promise he'll stop seph when she's previously been trying to help Cloud improve his mental health.
@@UltimateAnimeGamer it’s interesting in the sense that it justifies why Cloud sees Aerith without it just being her ghost in the life stream that he can see. Like, the idea that Red sensed Aerith in the end because Red also has jenova cells is kind of copium. But I think given that the last thing we see is Aerith watching the tiny bronco fly off even without Cloud around to be hallucinating her undermines any validity of that theory. I think the reason Aerith is okay with Cloud going off to fight sephiroth is because she’s trusts that he’s strong enough to handle the trauma now. I don’t think they’re going for the plot twist as much as the straight punch. The only real mystery is the black material cloud has
@@skieth9999 I really hope max is right because I think cloud a man who gaslit himself so hard he convinced himself he had the life of another person rather than accept the trama of being powerless to save his home town being manipulated by his inability to accept the trama of aerith's death and dening it but over the 3rd game growing to accept that Aerith is gone would be an amazing character arc for him.
Pat's conversation about judging things differently based on the expectations it sets up for you is interesting to think about. Like, if he viewed it (and the game itself presented it) as being a faithful remake, he would have different "wants" and standards that he would see if it met them.
I always saw it as more Star Trek 2009 style remake, we doing basically the same story just updated and while yes that’s disappointing for some who wanted completely different story beats, I personally don’t mind. There definitely should be 1 to 1 remake/remaster tho
Part of the issue is that it's also a sequel to a game that made a point of telling you that the events of the original game wouldn't constrain the events going forward
Considering all the articles before FF7R's release keep using the words "faithful remake" (you can search this in google, there are articles on IGN, the guardian, gamespot, gamesradar, etc) you would expect that people going were expecting a fairly faithful remake with expansion upon existing themes, locations, and characters. They weren't expecting time ghosts and major plot changes. Of course, fanboys will try to gaslight and say they never promised that, but I can link articles that prove it.
@@skieth9999 But everyone in these comments is arguing over what's going to happen in part 3. If what you said was true then everyone would know what happens.
I feel like killing cloud would have sucked because his whole development is finding self worth and living despite losing 2 people who made him happy only to kill him as a twist.
@@TheShockVox After trying so hard to focus her to the point of ditching other side quests, you really have to fuck up as an anti-rizz lord to get Nanaki instead.
@@crazygamer4260 She isn't hard to get. The only concern is that if you do all quests before Nibelheim, Aerith & Red will be higher in affinity, but once you do Fluffy, Tifa should be ahead. Even moreso if you do the Dustbowl & Choco Race ones. Pat will consistently deny that Infinite Wealth completionism played a part in him caving to side quest tax, but Pat's a fucking liar, so don't get it twisted.
I was thinking the whole set up was leading to Tifa being killed at the end, she got wayyyy more development through the game than Areith did so genuinely couldn't believe they didn't go for that
Tifa was more being built into a biggest warrior for the Planet, while Aerith was left open to being in her own other Journey instead of all offscreen Lifestream existence. Which reflects the other marketing image for Rebirth with Tifa and Aerith on different ends.
They definitely use too many dramatic Sephiroth entrances. In part 3, if Cloud... no... if ANYONE sees a black feather drifting down in front of their face, they should immediately attack upward and have Sephiroth be shocked they saw him coming.
@@attackofthecopyrightbots I want to see him frustrated at least once near the end. See him lament over how he lost again despite restarting everything. Especially since Rebirth barely has him deviate from the OG. Like, maybe part 3 will have the deviations, see the rest of Deepground and the Tsviets (Rebirth could have had a scene where Glenn tells Rufus about them).
Once the choice to do something other than a normal remake was taken, then yes the FF7 games should have gone more into the plot deviations proper. Full derailment really. Instead we have this half and half approach that only limp wrists everything in trying to please all sides/have their cake and eat it.
I agree I just feel that they wanted to appeal to OG fans but wanted to gain new fans as well with the new story stuff. FF7R trilogy is an interesting experiment in terms of the topic of what defines a “REMAKE”
This pretty much sums up my thoughts towards the narrative. The ending of Remake seemed so adamant that things were going to be different going forward and, while deviations and additions were certainly present in Rebirth, the vast majority of the game followed the OG. It felt a bit disappointing, honestly, which was not helped by the rather meandering middle section of FF7 anyway. A real shame since the combat is so exciting. Not sure which way they’re going to lean for part 3’s story.
@@TylerRuinsI definitely wouldn’t call it disappointing, Aerith’s death in particular is important and it’d be more disrespectful to the original game’s legacy to fuck with it.
that goes for both extremes im seeing in the comments here. the people here i think you're referring to *are* here, of course. people using what Pat's saying to justify calling the game "garbage" are also here.
For me, its two things: 1) Backloading all of the deviations for the last hour, and 2) introducing even more ambiguity about the literal, tangible narrative events. These together feel like the remake is lacking conviction in a narrative direction, like they're just waiting to decide what the 3rd game is based on how they react to the ending of the 2nd. That makes me less excited, and a greater portion of my engagement is "I need some gd answers".
Initially I thought they’re gonna have a big change and Tifa and Cloud die this time, but playing the original again on Steam, Aerith’s death is too important to be screwed with. Especially since so many new people are playing it now.
Ultimately, it will come down to whether or not part 3 can stick the landing. 3.0+1.0 managed to save the whole thing, despite the awkwardness of 3.33.
Other way around. 3.33 tried to save and make sense of 3 which was good until they did the same thing again and threw in more twists again halfway through
the Midgar section of the OG game really goes off the rails when you think about it. from: "hey we're eco terrorists hellbent on destroying the evil corporation" to: "omg this eldritch space alien x infamous war hero duo is going to literally DESTROY the planet with a meteor" it's completely absurd. They kept all of that in there, but added a good amount of filler AND time ghost plot stuff that was at least interesting. with 7R2 they decided to take 60 of the 100 hours in a playthrough and stuff them with LOTS of filler and that's it.
@@fpejanoviceh, at least most of the filler was at least decently enjoyable. The worst was the expanded dungeons (square enix trying their damnest not to make another monster filled hallway with no meaningful puzzles) and some of the chadley stuff that got really repetitive
I can respect Pat’s opinion through most of this, even though I personally loved more or less everything about this game, including how long it was. The only thing I can’t stand is at the end when he does the PAT thing he does and says, “I’m not remotely excited for the next game because I think this one didn’t properly deliver on a thing I expected. I now think they never should have made these games this way to begin with now.” He does this shit all the time where he claims that something in a game/movie/whatever ruins or invalidates the experience, and that means it never should have been made to begin with. It’s the one “Patism” I have NEVER been able to get used to. Drives me crazy every time.
Pat has consistently always had a "if it doesn't meet the standards, why ever bother trying?" stance I've seen now as a pattern with different things he talks about. Music remixes, fighting game stories, and now this. It's a weird stance contrasting from my personal views, don't get me wrong, but it is a consistent trait.
Oh my god thank you, I've been noticing him doing this more and more recently like with FF16 and Dragon's Dogma 2 and it has been driving me absolutely insane. Not liking a game is one thing, everyone likes and dislikes different stuff. I hate all 4 of the Eva rebuilds and feel like I wasted my time watching them, but I'm not gonna fight Pat over him liking them. But the way he says things like "FF7 Rebirth existing makes FF16 pointless why did they even make this" is an insane statement, it would be like me saying the ORIGINAL Evangelion was pointless because the rebuilds exist, which would be an INSANE stance if you liked those movies or not.
@@leithaziz2716 I honestly get it to an extent, like why do a thing if you're not gonna do it *better* but at the same time like... what was the standard to meet for FF7R? I get that he wanted more new stuff, but I feel like the story can only diverge so much while still calling it a remake
@@RahkshiMaster This. It is just ane insane statement. Because while I love all of them KH's combat is still better than FF7R and 16 to me. Doesn't mean the others can't exist and be good in thier own right. Which they are.
I mean, Remake set Rebirth to fail with its hyperbolic ending statement. You don't make that sort of declaration to then go on to copy-paste OG FF7 for 95% of your story (I'm taking Pat's statement at face value here, I haven't played Rebirth and have no desire to). Calling it an unknown journey pretty much burned the bridge with folks that wanted a faithful remake and set the imagination of those that wanted change on fire, it's too late to thread the middle ground now. Of course, you've got to keep in mind Pat's love for hyperbolic statements but still, I get what he's saying here.
Reception to the ending of Rebirth has proven decidedly mixed, moreso than I expected even after the divisive response to Remake. As someone with no personal investment in the original FF7 and no interest in playing the Remake Project after bouncing off the first game very early, the response has been interesting to watch unfold.
Go check them out man, I cared nothing for any Final Fantasy or JRPG but fell in love with 7 when I played it on the PC and cried when I lost save files (I got back to where I was later). Even my brother who had no personal investment checked it out and actually liked it. I recommend the Switch version because you can just fast forward through stuff and regenerate health and limit with the analogue sticks.
I think the underlying issue is that the devs are kind of trying to have it both ways with it being a new story vs being a remake of the original and I'm not sure they're threading the needle very well.
@@leithaziz2716Do it. I used not give a single fuck about JRPGs but I played FF7 on Steam and fell in love. The Switch version is more user friendly tho.
Remake fundamentally damaged the story for me, so Rebirth already had its path tainted. Making FFVII a meta-narrative what if Kingdom Hearts concept just ruins the characters and themes for me beyond repair.
Y'know to each their own, but I really disagree with Pat on this one, I much prefer rebirth to Remake, and I'm glad it was more normal for most of the game, because the way it goes nuts at the end hit that much harder for me and really made me unsure of how part 3 is gonna end.
This kind of feels like the same problem where he refused to finish Edgerunners because he basically decided ahead of time that it was going to be Gurren Lagann or Kill la Kill and then proclaimed it not worth watching when it wasn't balls to the walls absurd. His repeat prediction that Cloud was going to die and Zach would take his place for the third game lasted through the whole playthrough and screams that again. Ending didn't do what he predicted, so everything up to it was not enough, and now I don't care anymore. The all or nothing hyperbole is frustrating.
@@Madman6884I think it was smart that game makes you think Tifa will die this time instead of Aerith before Aerith herself makes sure that doesn’t happen.
@@Madman6884I feel like everyone assumed that that would be the case (I think there were even false leaks close to release claiming that that was the case). I don’t even understand why you’d be disappointed that that DIDNT happen, because I sure as hell don’t want to be stuck playing as Zack for most of Pt. III lol
I'm someone who has never played the og ff7 but generally knows the story. I played remake and thought it was pretty good but not great I mostly finished it out of the hope that the remake trilogy might have cross game saves, which I was real dissapointed when they announced that you would not be able to carry your remake save to rebirth. I bought rebirth out of a feeling obligation that I went through all of remake. I might as well try rebirth. I say this to highlight how huge of a suprie to me it was when I absolutely fell in love with rebirth. It might be one of my top 3 games of all time. So, to say the least, I think Pat is absolutely crazy for thinking remake is better than rebirth.
I mean, MGS1 is also that, as was MG2. Hell, from MG1 to MGS2 it's all basically the exact same game and plot structure just with better design and graphics.
Lots of sequels are just redoes of the first one. Super Metroid for example continues the story directly from 1 and 2, but the game itself might as well have been a remake of 1 for the new hardware.
Remake now seems like a Last Jedi situation, where it says, "We're going in a new direction with new things." then they get cold feet due to fan divisiveness and the next installment is a remake that causes even more disappointment.
I think Rebirth's issue was that it was always part 2 of 3 and the decision to make part 3 NOT completely swerve like EVA 3.33 was made early enough in conceptualization that it forced Rebirth to be normal. With Rebirth hinting at Huge Materia, Aerith dying, Cloud starting to go nuts, and the devs outright saying Wutai is being integrated into main plot, it's pretty obvious Part 3 is going to go with the same template as Rebirth. It's probably going to be 70% old/reinterpretted, 25% new but sane, and 5% multiverse shit.
@@Vanity0666 Cloud should get Indiana Jonesed in Rocket Town like Palmer did and get reincarnated in a high school and the game turns into a dating sim but it still has the same combat system and Queen's Blood.
Yep. Nomura and Kitase have said in an interview that the remake trilogy is still going to lead into Advent Children no matter what in the lead up to Rebirth, which makes it more jarring the ending of Remake was hyping up the idea of "fates been broken, anything could happen!".
Cant believe i find myself fully agreeing with a Pat take but stranger things have happened. Rebirth had one question to answer: Does it deviate from the original story drastically enough to pay off Remake's ending, or doesn't it? It's a yes/no question, yet the developers spent pretty much the entire game bending themselves into pretzels looking for a third answer. Its hard to be excited when the games are trying to bait you into this wacky mystery story but the developers are sat in interviews telling you that its all smoke and mirrors and that it's not going to be that different. Hard to be more excited than exhausted.
Personally, I was never down with the whole "alternate timeline and characters are aware of it" direction Square went with remaking FF7. Especially if it's a self-referential sequel, meaning you're still expected to play the original to get the full grasp of everything. Hearing Pat say how part 2 is backpeddling by staying faithful instead of diving deep into the new stuff, makes me think Square is no longer confident with the direction they initially chose.
@@7U57HTJRYGHG theyre not backpedaling at all though. the ending to me seemed to be doubling down on all that. the reason remake was so much more different imo is because the game was adapting the smallest (time wise) section of the game. midgar is not that long in the OG. this game's problem was it was adapting most of the road trip stuff. a lot of big plot stuff, even in rebirth. doesnt really happen until the ending. i suspect things to be a lot different in the next game. also, imo thechanges in this game were about on par with remake when it comes to quantity and quality.
@maxinesmith1966 honestly I feel they made you think we could change it in remake then rebirth says no it happens and then part 3 is gonna be about how sometimes bad things happen and you can wonder what if forever or accept it, pick yourself up, and keep living.
Having now played the original and the remakes, I can easily say the Sephiroth stuff is the least interesting part of the story. The party and relationships is what makes FF7 the best imo.
To be fair, Sephiroth is not that interesting of a villian. And he's not entertaining in a "show-stealing" manner the way Kefka is. He's intimidating, that's always been his strength, but beyond that? Hmm.
@@leithaziz2716I think what makes Sephiroth interesting isn’t his strength but rather is pettiness. He’s salt he’s a genetic baby, he’s salt rookie Cloud beat him and he’s salt Tifa keeps getting in the way of him messing with Cloud. If they leaned into that aspect more rather than just treating him like pretty Darkseid I’d be more satisfied.
@@leithaziz2716his design is literally indicative of him projecting the aesthetic of strength and power outwards while being essentially being a broken child on the inside
man has never been more than a cool design and boss music riding the coattails of a really good protagonist, jenova was always a more interesting antagonist
The third part has the highest chance of going completely off the rail. If you add in Zack and DOC i have hope the last installment will be weird. Hell, even add the sephiroph trio.
On the other hand Cid might actually have charactet depth unlike the original and actually earn his place on the team instead of suddenly being elevated to leader our of nowhere despite being an asshole.
Honestly, I think Pat needs to stop streaming long games at this point, or really just focus solely on them until it’s done. Calling Remake better is wild to me, I could barely finish Remake because I found it so monotonous at points, whereabouts Rebirth had an almost Nintendo esque “Keep it fresh and surprising every step along the way” that is almost completely alien within the JRPG genre at this point where almost every degree of side content is legit MMO style fetch quests. Also, I put way more stock in character than plot, so I don’t really give too much of a fuck on that front as long as I find the characters compelling, and this game absolutely nails that in almost every respect.
I totally get what Pat is saying and where he's coming from but also HOLY SHIT THEY BASICALLY MADE THE FINAL FANTASY GAME I'VE BEEN DREAMING OF FOR 20 FUCKING YEARS
FF7 Remake/Rebirth has an issue for me where it's completely uncritical in the way it looks back at FF7. Like when you watch Rebuild Evangelion, you can tell that Anno is reflecting on who he was when he first made Eva and how he's changed and its legacy in pop culture and its influence on him as an artist. Remake/Rebirth almost feel more like a 'greatest hits' after subsequent albums failed to sell much. It's sincere but shallow
Still it’s important to note that last Rebuild got underwhelming reaction. Glad Anno got his life around but there’s such a thing as being too sanctimonious. Shin Godzilla is good movie but Minus One has the much better message imo.
@@li-limandragon9287 For sure but that's also a good comparison: Let's compare Godzilla Minus One to Godzilla x Kong New Empire as an analogy for Rebuild vs FF7 Remake/Rebirth Minus One is creators (not even the original creators) going back to what Godzilla originally meant and symbolized nearly 70 years ago to Japanese people and approaching that same idea with modern sensibilities and perspective on things like the Japanese government, the Imperial army and the war effort against the allies. That's in the same space (albeit executed better) than Rebuild 3.0 and 4.0. There's at least some story merit there. FF7 Remake/Rebirth honestly feels more like Godzilla x Kong New Empire. It's Fan service from top to bottom without really a strong point or reason to exist in the first place. It's basically all fluff and no meat, as far as having a distinct message or perspective from the OG 1997 game.
@@erevgd I think Remake was the wind up for something big the same way Evangelion Rebuild 1.0 and even 2.0 are the set up for some big changes in 3.0 and 4.0. I can accept that. I think The issue is Rebirth was where they needed to make big changes or deviations to have their own story to tell and they didn't.
@@skieth9999No Rebirth definitely has heart, only a person that doesn’t give a single shit about the FF7 characters or at least thinks the original game had enough (a shallow take imo) would call it all fluff. Trust me, I’ve lost saves files on the original and cried. The Remakes definitely have shallow fanservice but the character development and dynamics are 1000 times better than Compilation which is trash.
Can’t tell anyone how to feel, it’s always good to hear differing perspectives. That said, at least in my case, it’s clear there’s a difference in what’s valued in terms of new content and its impact on things. He’s not entirely wrong that it’s like 90-95% the same path you take compared to OG but for me personally that 5-10% that’s different holds a TON of weight to where it effectively “feels” like the % is different than it actually is. I really am intrigued by that 5% because I feel like game 3 is where it’ll throw it’s weight around to lead to an instance where on paper it’s the same plot beats but in PRACTICE it’s gonna lead to some massive emotional and cathartic moments.
Most boring and easiest to break minigame. The AI farts and shits itself if you start deleting its cards and loses 95% of the time unless they SPECIFICALLY have a deck that takes advantage of it. You never have any reason NOT to build a deck around killing your own and your enemies cards to just get a 28+ score in one lane and make the entire match pointless.
@@wardy4903 You get Mindflayer, Flametrooper, and Midgardsormer cards in Junon. All three of those are core to a removal deck. That's the second zone in the game.
@@li-limandragon9287that was super weird as a new fan. I listened to castle super beast first and then looked up on the catalog of Super Best Friends videos. I think both MK9 and MK10 I remember him being happy with the stuff in the let’s play. Then in the podcast during MK11 and MK1 he acts like it’s been garbage since MK2. He really does flip flop on a lot of opinions from what I noticed
@@crazygamer4260 The wording was strong, but personally I would have much rather just gotten a full, faithful comic adaptation since we haven't seen that on screen before
the mistake was ever diverging in the first place, Remake makes a loud statement "this is not gonna go the way you want it and too bad if you complain we are going places we never went to before", the whole time ghosts shit, i hated it, HATED IT with a passion but as a metaphor for the devs telling you shit will change works fine enough and 4 years later after 100 or odd hours hour Playthrough and shit DIDNT change enough im upset they didnt had the balls to fucking thrust deep and harder its weird to feel like this
my biggest gripe is that the plot all leads up to THE big change... only for them to get cold feet at the last second, so the 95% unchanged felt even worse
I really don't see how Remake was that much different from OG compared to Rebirth. If anything I'd say its mostly the same ratio but Rebirth has more "deviate" moments sprinkled throughout the game plus pretty much every area or plot beat gets the expanded Wall Market treatment from Remake so that's still a new take on old stuff. I get that's not exactly what Pat wanted but he's really acting like Rebirth did absolutely nothing new. Personally when it did start to deviate I thought it did so in more interesting ways than Remake did I'm still pretty excited for part 3.
Yeah I don't agree with pat at all about the ratio business. It has the same amount of exposure to new fucky plot ghosts stuff that remake had. Gongaga is completely expanded as well
Setting expectations wrong and getting people upset that way seems to be the name of the game in general. After all Remake already wasn't really a remake but a time/dimension-loopy sequel instead of a remake. But because of the name people expected a remake and were then upset when those expectations were not met. Not the expectaions were that it's gonna be different but it wasn't so now people can be upset because of unemt expectations again.
Really looking forward to Woolie finally playing through it, this feels like a fairly pointless discussion to have without both having the full context of completing the game.
@@Madman6884 honestly it might actually work out for the best as a form of tempering expectations, kind of exactly like what happened with FFXVI and Pat complaining incessantly over the poor quality of the side content.
I honestly don't understand the complaint of it wasn't different enough, there was plenty of new stuff that still leaves up in the air whats happening so idk what people want outside of killing off everyone but cloud like they originally were gonna do for the original game
The absolute worst thing that can happen is Gackt walking through a portal with young Sephiroth and telling Cloud they all have to kill god. I don’t trust square Enix enough to say that isn’t a possibility.
I feel like Pat stares At should just Become Pat crys At, Everytime I hear him talk lately he's just discontent about everything, and whenever I hear his reasons I really try to see things from his view, but I feel like none of his critiques are ever objective, just him saying "but I wanted...." And describing a super specific experience he wants to have that sounds like it's less about a good experience, and more about him wanting a design that doesn't affect his "mind goblins"
I found myself really satisfied with the plot because it's been decades since I played the original game and most of this comes off as "I don't remember this at all." The minigame bloat is a problem tho.
I'll always respect Pat and Woolie for being Ok and even encouraging change even when most of their audience is like, no just give me the thing I already like again because they themselves even understand that point a view and like pat said, its easier to accept change when they just go through with it and not half ass it like they're afraid of alienating people, FF is about taking Risk more than most series so taking a Risk just to walk it back feels cowardly even if the reason for doing so is to appease those that came before
Walk what back? There's still mystery because of deviation. Tell us what's going on with aerith and Zach. Because this is nothing like where they were at thus point in the og.
I agree with Pat. They either should have made a faithful remake for the trilogy with new stuff like Roche and slightly influence some scenes to fit the overall canon or gone full insane in rebirth. That a nice boat. It would be a shame if it was sinking thanks to sephiroth Or nibelheim started burning again once cloud and the party visit. Or Dyne through a butterfly effect, lived. They didn't commit to either a faithful remake or the unknown journey.
I think the biggest issue with the R project is Square being unable, or unwilling, to retcon Advent Children out of existence. They've made sure to leave nods to pretty much the entirety of FF7 related material, and as an accomodation to every kind of fan, it is great. But 'FF7 Compilation' does not fit into a single, cohesive whole any way you look at it. And both R games so far didn't rewrite it all to fit, they have instead been forced to fit themselves into being a sequel to Advent Children. Which hurt everything across the board, in my opinion. Individual segments have a lot of good storytelling stuff, but the overarching plot is left hanging in a vague limbo that doesn't look like it is going to have a satisfying resolution in the remaining game.
I wrote it in my review of Rebirth, but it felt like Remake was an significant look at the nature of remakes and nostalgia from the perspective of the creator, wanting to make something new and invigorating then rehash the past when no matter what you can’t recreate FF7, especially it’s impact. Reminded me a lot of The Matrix Resurrections, yet Rebirth lacks that bite and confidence Remake had
Was part of the criticism of nostalgia the 5 tedious dungeons where you had to pump cranks/move robot hands/connect electricity? Because those were dire, and Rebirth was a joy to play
@@adammaunz8230 Rebirth also drags heavily as well as struggles with tone, Barrett’s chapter is a prime example. I agree Remake had bad filler but that doesn’t also mean Rebirth is flawless, that and I was mainly discussing narrative
Except, this is a video game, the one media format where a flat out remake makes sense. Same story, new visuals, new gameplay, with maybe some extra new stuff added in to better tie in sequel content or retcon some bad writin or fix poor translations or whatever. The GameCube remake of Resident Evil or the GBA remake of Metriod are both damn near universally praised for a reason.
Complaining that the game is too faithful when so much of the content is expanding the scenarios and character moments that did NOT exist in the original is crazy to me. Sure not so much plot ghost stuff but to say that it’s all just the same game remade is wild. The characters get so much more time to breath and interact and each set piece is huge. Sure it’s technically the same beats but way expanded. And the changes are more subtle, Cloud is way more affected by the Jenova shit, his visions are different, he remembers Zack etc. the additions aren’t in your face but they’re there
Cloud is remembering more stuff and Tifa is out here telling him not to talk to anyone about it but her and also telling others not to confront him about anything cause she wants to handle it like gurl you aren't his keeper! So these changes are happening but not being talked about among the cast, leaving this strange tension. I want to see how it pays off later now that Cloud can communicate with Aerith in the other timeline.
I understand Pat's reaction and it's fair, but honestly I've been saying Remake is 95% faithful and then a swerve at the end and the devs have been saying for 4 years that the story will follow the same beats, but put in some extra stuff to keep it exciting so I felt like they kept that promise. All the extra character moments and fleshed out events and wacky anime side stories on top of the main story is what I was looking for. But I can't get upset at Pat or anyone since it's not like everyone reads those interviews and they put Zack in the cover so I have to agree thay they do want to pretend that they were going to go into a crazier direction, even if that was never the intention.
Agree, the party and their relationships are what makes FF7 for me, I don’t need alternate timelines and characters dying/coming back to life to enjoy it
I mean they do kinda go into a crazy direction its just that's its sprinkled throughout the game in bits and pieces and then you get a big chunk of it at the end. I'm fine with how everything was handled I liked the game a lot but they could have utilized Zack a little bit more or at least not split up his sections as much as they did. Its insane that they made an entire moveset and mechanics for Zack and you don't even get the tutorial for him until you're literally fighting the final boss.
@@Wiffernubbinpretty common in the forums is just another way to say a vocal minority is mad. "Yo this game that has 90+/90 critics and user scores is actually not that good though"
@@DemonFireRain I think you're being unfair too, though. I think Rebirth is a 9/10 video game experience but I think that the lack of clarity in narrative direction is almost crippling in my experience of the story. Like, 4 years ago the fanbase exploded with debate about the 'Unknown Journey' and initially I hated the Remake ending but warmed up to it. But despite promising an 'unknown journey', Rebirth follows the story more closely than the story BEFORE the Harbinger was killed and freedom became 'boundless'. It comes off as murky and confused. Saying that people's criticism is hyperbolic and unfair because gaming journalists came to roughly the same score is quite dismissive.
Woolie is an adult and should know better than just listening to a single opinion (Pat), he is gonna be fine I promise. Also even if he does end up sharing Pat's feelings towards rebirth, it really isn't that big of a deal, it's just a video game.
@@ItsCassius I would only not be dismissive if there was a massive disparity between the critic and user scores, but there isn't. Negative forum posts from a vocal minority don't supersede user review metrics everywhere else. Of course there are things to criticize about the game, I'm not denying that. I've got complaints too. But I'm not going to pretend that the "forum" people are being fully fair and non-hyperbolic too. You can see it in these comments right now, people saying the game is trash, etc. There's also a vocal minority that hates everything regardless of the actual quality of the thing. I dismiss those opinions when I don't think they're actually valuable or reflecting the reality of the product. what I've learned throughout my life: not everyone's opinion is worth listening to.
As far as i know, the thing that most people praise about FF7 Rebirth is the "open field" exploration and side quests, the combat, mainly because the new gameplay mechanics and playable characters (if FF7 Remake combat was great then FF7 Rebirth combat is greater), the party interactions in dialogues and cutcenes, and some bit and pieces of the main story but not complete story as a whole and sadly, the most important part of it, that being Aerith's demise, didn't stick the landing which is the major point of criticism that most people have.
It's a part of why I haven't jumped in on these games at all. Like, if it was just a straight remake there wouldn't have been a problem, but then I caught wind that it was actually a stealth sequel to the original, which I haven't gotten around to beating yet. Oh, and apparently now I'll have to have played Crisis Core Reunion and Dirge of frigging Cerberus too? Thanks, Nomura.
@jimmynicol7942 You’d have to possess insane “not all the treasures in heaven could satisfy me” Smash Bros fan mindset to say it’s completely unsatisfying the character dynamics alone are worth it for me. It’s conflicted yes and they should definitely just made remaster years ago, but I’m happy with we’ve gotten. AC and Dirge are nowhere near as fun to play.
I remember reading an interview with one of the devs saying that the story is still on track towards the Advent Children story. If that's the case, why include all of the extra plot ghosts and the fate stuff and the subtext with Aerith and Sephiroth?
Pat's going to be pissed when Rebirth wins GoTY and he realizes he let his mind goblins ruin one of the best RPGs of the last decade for him. Woolie's going to pass on rebirth until it wins and realize he let pat talk him out of playing an amazing game. Kinda disappointed he didnt dig in and press pat for some positives, force him to talk about the amazing combat/music/visuals/characters/VA work... you know... the actual meat of the game.
He said it ended strong. The point is that you can be disappointed with something on the whole, even if it had really strong moments. You literally missed the forest for the trees
@@minigmaenigma i don't think anyone in the comments is saying the game is perfect or without flaws. I loved the game but if course it has issues. I think some people just find Pat's hyperbole and "Pat-isms" tired at this point.
I never played the original _Final Fantasy VII,_ so when I heard that it was getting remade, I was intrigued. But then I heard that the remake also changed significant plot pints and also demands that you have played the original to understand how the story has changed, which, I didn't play the original, so I guess I would have trouble following the new one? I honestly don't know how familiar you have to be with _FF7_ to be able to follow this new game.
@li-limandragon9287 Playing the remakes first will spoil major late game reveals almost 100 hours before they happen. It will make your experience of the remakes more confusing because they reference events you have not seen and will spoil major parts of the original early as well. It literally makes both versions worse if you play the remakes first. The original game is not that hard to pick up and play, I played through it for the first time on an emulator on my phone when I was 13.
Honestly, you should just go ahead and play them. You're playing these games for the characters. You don't need to worry about spoilers. People like to say that remake and rebirth spoil so much about FF7, but that's not really true. The things people see that they claim are "spoilers" won't mean anything to someone who doesn't know much about FF7. I have friends who are having a great time with the remake series and they've never played the original. Hearing their theories is exciting because they know nothing about what's coming and I think that's a good thing. So try them out! Enjoy the characters, explore the combat and materia system, have a laugh, fight a house, and ignore the fanbase lol your experience won't be tainted. If anything this might encourage you to play the original after these games
@thatoneguy5969 I think it's worth pointing out that the original FF7 has a very strong story in addition to a great cast of characters. I have never heard anyone say this stuff about "only coming to this game for the characters" said in reference to the original Final Fantasy 7.
@@1wayroad935 The thing X-2 is that it follows up after a point that is framed as a conclusion to the story, that being the ending of the 1st game. It was gunna rub you the wrong way no matter what. (This is not me talking about the concept of sequels. I mean that the OG game gave the impression that you weren't ever gonna see more of this world.)
I appreciate that the ending of Remake made people think they were gonna go crazy and take it in an all new direction, but what I felt at the time was that every change made in Remake was made to justify them only having the money to make one small part of the original game. For practical reasons, you know. "The original content isn't enough for a full priced title, so we gotta pad it out with sidequest hubs. Gotta have extra time with this or that character, gotta do this or that pointless side character's backstory. We need some extra sewer tunnels over here. We need this lab part to be a couple hours longer". The main new plot thread with the ghosts is there for a very obvious reason: Gotta set something up so there's a more climactic final boss than a robot on the road - "How do we get a Sephiroth boss in this game?". That's all they were doing, and they just chose dumb "personification of metaphor" stuff to make it work, 'cause this is the kinda bs they write in, like, most of their games. Of course the heroes weren't gonna go on some entirely brave new story afterwards, besides where they need to because the next game also only covers a portion of the original, and needs its own intro and climax and stuff to be functional. Their problem was not being able to just remake the whole game in one go. If they had been, I'd bet everything I own that they'd never have included that ghost nonsense, the sidequests, the early sephiroth boss etc begin with. It's not some artistic decision to re-examine the story or whatever. It's part of a practical solution to the problem of not being able to make a game as long as the original FF7 with the modern fidelity they wanted to portray it with. I'd argue they should've remade it like Link's Awakening was remade instead, but I guess that wasn't an option for them. I can understand their decision since I get the appeal of a 3rd person action rpg showing off the setting like that, but to me the tradeoffs weren't worth it in the end.
I get Pat's baseline premise. But I disagree with it because the context in which these story beats happen is even more dramatically different than Remake let on even if the story beats themselves are not really much different. It's the difference between romancing Garrus and not romancing Garrus, not much is actually that different besides the new smoochin' bits, but the contextual read is VERY different. The primary problem is as Pat said, the back-loaded bits maybe should have been implied a little bit fucking sooner. That said I would *hope* Part 3 actually follows through and GOES FARTHER.
As someone whose never played og ff7 I much prefer rebirth over remake as a game. The missions were trash, lack of diversity in locations, Midgard as a whole is not interesting enough of an area to have 40 hours of gameplay dedicated to it. Whereas rebirth was more expansive and had more lore for new fans to get into.
I'm not sure how much I trust Pat on this, his takes have been BAD as of late, and by as of late I mean his entire life. That being said, HEY FIGHTING GAMERS! WHENS MAHVEL!?
It’s just a bit too cluttered. What makes it so effective in the original is the minimalism. Still I think they were trying to make players second guess whether she’d die or not right up until the last minute
Everything from when Sephiroth appeared after the temple of the ancients collapsed had me confused which really ruined the emotion of the scene for me "Why isn't the gang immediately stopping cloud from going to sephiroth, does only cloud see him?" "Is aerith alive or not alive?" "Is this actuality Sephiroth Prime or Jenova?" So many questions and as the credits rolled I was kinda pissed. I wamted answers and all I got was a bunch of "I dunno" Looking back at the scenes I can see a bunch of the subtle details and hints that are interwoven nicely with the actual plot and the meta-plot. But as a player in the moment? It was just frustration, confusion, and disappointment. They ended it poorly by having no clear answers and mixing it into what was once an important emotional scene. How can you be emotional if you don't know what even happened?
@@miguelnewmexico8641 I mean, it's not like it's the first time that team pulls that stunt. Kingdom Hearts has literally been keeping hostage its fanbase with the ol' mystery box trick for almost 20 years now. Even the long awaited KH3 ended up creating more questions than it answered despite being the end of a saga.
Pat is actually insane. Rebirth diverges WILDLY from the original, the only similarities that exists are the core locations EXIST to some degree, and a handful of events that you expect to occur happen. That accounts for about 15-20% of the game, and it's all PERFECTLY ENJOYABLE. The core experience is the ONLY GOOD THING IN THE GAME. That parts that drag it down is literally everything else. How overdrawn and painfully stretched each section is because you can literally feel the devs desperately trying to extend the length of the game without having the courage to actually delve into characters like they did in remake. You go to kalm, things happen pretty much the same, and you leave and get a laundy list of Assasins Creed area objectives before moving on to the next setpiece. They TEASE some new and expanded lore, with the scene with tifa on the roof, and the ex-soldier innkeeper, but you can taste the cowardice as these plot points are dropped and the much easier safety move of Empty Open World Objectives is shoved in your face. Imagine if they expanded the flashback in Kalm to an entire chapter of content. Imagine if Kalm had actual named characters with some story and a reason to stay there for longer and it wasn't just filled with UE4 NPC assets in modern street clothing.
I never wanted an evangelion in the first place so everything pat says just sounds appealing to me. People saying that a 1:1 remake would be boring sound crazy to me because they KNOW the original game is nuts and theres so much you can do with that while still being faithful.
Yeah, don't get the wrong idea. Pat is totally wrong about how faithful Rebirth is. It doesn't have as many massive changes as Remake, but it is littered with smaller changes that REALLY add up add the game goes on. You seem like you have played the original, so I'll give an example below so people casually scrolling don't get spoiled. SPOILER: After the Kalm flashback there is a cutscene where Tifa and Aerith are alone and Tifa turns to Aerith and just outright tells her that she never saw Cloud at Niebelheim and that he sounded insane. She might even name-drop Zach but I don't remember for sure. I assume you've played the original, so I'm sure you can understand how dramatically that changes the way the story is told even if it is a seemingly small detail and doesn't TECHNICALLY change the timeline. Also there is an annoying sequence where Shinra raids Kalm searching for the party and you have to escape, and it's basically an elongated forced walking section where you just follow an npc. It's basically stuff like that throughout the game in addition to the outright timeline changes that are there. It is NOT a 1:1 and people saying stuff like what Pat said is what led to me picking the game up and being super disappointed. DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKE.
The problem is that it's way too late for that at this point. The first game already made a hard declaration on how this wasn't going to be a faithful remake and how the future was going to be wildly different. They can't really back down from that, they've already alienated anyone that just wanted a remake. Except they backpeddled anyway and now nobody's satisfied.
@@theredcomet5670It’s not disappointing, it’s just both it and Remake expect you to know the original story. I mean Tifa just does what Hojo does. revealing the twist too early. I don’t like it but it doesn’t ruin the game for me.
@li-limandragon9287 I just think it's a less interesting way of telling the story, even if you do know the story already. Plus I don't think there was any benefit to writing the game with the assumption that everyone playing already knew the story of FF7. Why spoil it for new people to begin with? I always thought it was more interesting on replays just seeing the different pieces that didn't line up that you never noticed on the first run. It felt like the game was inviting you to really engage with its themes and story in a way that I think the remake games totally fail to capture.
I actually think ogFF7 still holds up pretty well even today, so when remake went “this is actually a sequel, and from here onwards big plot changes can happen” I was actually excited. So yeah when this game ended up basically being the same as ogFF7 , but more complicated, I wasn’t a fan. Don’t get me wrong, the game is good, and what they added to the story was good, but every change except for Zack being alive (and even that ends up not being a big deal), doesn’t CHANGE anything, it just adds details. So now I have no expectations. If I go in expecting it be like rebirth, and go basically the same path as the OG with extra steps and padding, cool I guess, but honestly I’m fine with just going back to the original for that, especially after what part 1 set up, and if I go in expecting actual changes like I did with rebirth, I’m just gonna be waiting for something to happen and get disappointed when nothing does. I’m still gonna buy part 3 because I’m too invested now, and I REALLY hope they surprise me, but I expect disappointment. Now big caveat if part 3 does go hog wild, and executes the stuff set up in part 2 well that would absolutely retroactively change my opinions on rebirth into being just a banger of a set up, because it still is a really good game, it just didn’t use what remake set up very well.
so, hi guys, ya boy beat original ff7 maybe a year ago; are the remake editions straight up like alternate timelines of what the og story does? like that's the implication i've seen brought up a bunch but almost no confirmation? help
Kinda. FF7 Remake Intergrade actually screams "I'm a sequel". It has many "new" characters and concepts added into the story that come from FF7's many post game novels & side content, plus alterations to canon events that to stay spoiler free just can't be there any other way.
I have to agree with pat because the problem is not that is similar to the original story but that not enough new crazy stuff happens. I would rather way more new stuff than side quests.
I said it after I finished remake: They're gonna go off on new story beats like the ending promised, and piss off even more fans. Or they're gonna change basically nothing but add in some random things to justify the ending, which ultimately makes the entire point of remake's story pointless. Either way, it'll fail at what it's trying to do. Seems like I was right.
yea 15 wasn't great. 16 was a bit better. there is disappointment in 7R2 not actually being different. I mean what, the last good FF game was like 15 years ago with FF12
I like how this clip has no mention of Rebuild in it at all. I get the comparison between Remake and Rebuild, but at least have the clip directly compare them because I don't even think it touches on the problem of Rebuild, if anything it does the opposite.
it's kinda a spoiler, no? I don't think Pat wants Woolie to know it's almost/kinda/but not really a 3.33 scenario. Pat WISHES it was, and is disappointed (like i am as well) that it's not.
@@fpejanovic It doesn't really spoiler specific elements to compare the 2 conceptually, by this point mot people know what rebuild did, its moreso that the comparison isn't even drawn at all, which would have been more interesting that the Force Awakens one.
I think Rebirth is a fantastic game, but Pat's main criticism is correct. It does feel like a retreat from the courageous battle charge against the de facto lore of FF7 that Remake was. I'm certainly committed to seeing what the next game has, but if it disappoints me by doing what this game did I'm going to feel like I wasted my time and emotional energy on it.
The game definitely had side content issues. It tries doing EVERYTHING from side quests, challenge fights, and open world mapping. These things are all fine, but the amount there is drowns out the draw of the story players started the game for. Either cut down the amount of stuff, or reduce the number of side activities to one or two. 70% of your story-focused game shouldn't be spent doing side content. As for the story, the whole semi-remake premise seems shaky. I think FF7R was always going to be structured in separate releases, but the devs didn't want fans to wait 8 years for a story that came out complete in its original release. So their solution was to add the Whispers to add enough intrigue for long-time fans to wait while telling the original story as closely as possible.
but pat what about the whole cissnei segment? Idk at this point pats just being picky there’s plenty of stuff they changed. Weird standards guess you can please everyone all of the time
I mean I don't really have much of a problem with the remakes even though I love the OG dearly. I think things are going in a fine direction. Game was fun and kept me hooked enough to basically 100% the game. Either way we would have some camp of people that were disappointed.
I'm waiting for the steam release but I would be lying if I said I was really looking forward to Rebirth. I like Pat, will try to grind everything and it pains me to admit that it's probably not worth it for this game. Still, it's FF7 tho, so what can ya do?
I think it’s funny how despite calling it the “Rebuild of Evangelion” problem, Evangelion is like the only series to pull it off by the end that doesn’t leave a bad taste in your mouth for wanting what you were originally sold. It’s the most psychotic brain-melting divisive example, but that’s pretty much Eva’s M.O from the very start. Unless you’re really on point catching the tiny details, the rug-pull hits so much better.
Not to say FFVII or Scott Pilgrim Takes Off etc aren’t still awesome, but I know Scott Pilgrim is a huge example of “love what we got but wish we got what we love”.
Eva has the OG series + DoE for the people that like that, and then for those that (also) want something different there's the rebuild - which is an absolutely bonkers wild adaptation/retelling/sequel. It keeps all of the same energy of the OG series and just goes left where the OG went right. I agree with Pat that it would have been awesome if 7R2 had done that. The problem with making it a 95-5 RE style remake is that there's just too much bloat. It works for 7R1 because it needed some fleshing out and even the side quests don't overstay their welcome. Rebirth just drowns you in world intel and campy johnny nonsense for 60 of the 100 hours.
not different enough??? did we play the same game here or whats going on? Did the whole changes to the story in Junon, Gongaga (best zone in the game too btw, if he had trouble navigating it lmao thats too bad for him), the origins of the Black Materia, Nibelheim , the Temple, and the very ending fights not feel different enough for him? Also funny considering this is his take considering his high disappointment at the recent Scott Pilgrim series for being different lol
it was pretty clear from the first episode that remake was going in this direction dunno why anyone would be surprised 1:53 its cos of all those people that got mad at the first episode
I am gonna straight disagree with Pat that Remake is better. It's good but Rebirth takes all the concepts that Remake had and ran with them. I also found the stuff that tried to diverge from the main story way too convoluted and stupid. It's really uninteresting because it tries WAY too hard put out confusing twists so that they can keep you hanging for the third and final instalment.
We know the solution... Its demon's souls, dark souls, bloodborne elden ring. Its familiar, but different. You can let go and do something similar while telling a more realized story.
Xenogears/saga/blade does it too. I’m only through chapter 3 of Chronicles 2 and there is so much of the same storytelling and foreshadowing from gears. Unfortunately the serious parts and cringe are always minutes away from eachother.
@@TheMilhouseExperience If you're early on with Xenoblade 2, I highly recommend pushing forward. That game is infamous for having a really bad start that doesn't reflect the quality of the rest of the journey.
@@TheMilhouseExperience Yeah, don't know about cringe, as it isn't really cringe that much or at all, in all honesty. At least it's better than introducing a character, and dropping them all entirely for the rest of the game, the moment their arc gets done, of what little there is. And then they just sit there, in your party, the whole game. Looking at you Xenogears and Saga. Nothing is more cringe than that, and how many times that happens.
personally i love rebirth slightly more than remake but idk how you could realistically do a game that fully departs from the original without pissing off alot of people, the compromise that the game makes ultimately make alot of sense imo
Woolie I hope you read some of these because I have to state that the way Pat experienced it, as in under time limits and a nice chunky break inbetween playing it, definitely skews things in a negative light.
The more hype/ talk he hears about a particular piece of media the less likely he is to engage with it before 5-10 years pass Hipster's razor, so to speak.
@@BigOtakuGamerSHAWNY yes he got hands on with the demo. Here, he simply has pat and Twitter grapefruiting the shit out of square which means he will never touch this game
It'll be what always happens, Pat played new big game, Woolie plans to get to it in 3-5 years. Pat beats big game, has weird Pat reaction to big game, unloads it on Woolie in the podcast and completely colors Woolie's opinions on it and then Woolie goes into it eventually, if at all, with that preloaded opinion.
Rebirth, completely exposes the fact that, the deviations of remake were just made so they can bait and create a false mystery to sell you 3 games. They never had anything to say using the og story, this remake trilogy is just a product
Woolie, please don't let Pat's negative takes on Rebirth and not being hyped for the third game taint your experience beforehand. Check out Max's non-spoiler review to see just how much a hyper fan of the original game absolutely loves Rebirth. He's even said that the more he sits on and thinks about it, the more he finds to love it and get excited for the end of the trilogy.
as someone that share's Pat's disappointment in the ending being basically the same as in OG, i have also gotten around to being cool with it because of the added character development they did for everyone in the party - particularly Cloud and Aerith who are absolutely tragic characters in retrospect.
I wouldn't recommend Max's videos on the game. I like Max and have a lot of respect for him, but he genuinely comes off as being incapable of critical thought when it comes to the remake project. I don't think his feelings are inauthentic or anything, I just think that he loves these characters and world so much that he would be happy with pretty much anything as long as the game got that mostly right. Woolie is not an FF7 super fan, and I am positive that many of the design and narrative choices in Rebirth will not be his cup of tea no matter how fun the characters are in isolation. It is better for him to go in with low expectations and be pleasantly surprised than go in with high expectations and be disappointed.
I love Pat. I haven't finished Rebirth yet, I just kind of dropped it 'casue I wasn't having fun haha. I don't hate it! But like, it's not as good as Remake in my eyes.
Man i jumped when pat mentioned RE remake, i use to compare that game withFF7R in the basis of rythm. This game simply has none of that, and although i loved the start and the end i was so deflated at the end that i kind of need to replay the story and JUST the story of rebirth. Not to make justice to the game, but to make justice to my expectations. Idk if this even makes sense but eh.
The rebuild started with subtle changes that fueled natural speculation. Meanwhile, remake blows it's load on your face leaving only schizo ramblings based on nothing to make any of this interesting.
I don’t get this complaint. You get a genuine remake, a remake with new story content that can fit into the original, and the meta timeline “what is a remake” shit Like, why are you complaining? They did both, like you said. You can do both. They did. Most of the actual story content is changed if you actually look back at it, granted a lot of it fits into the OG games continuity It’s like 65/35 in terms of major story content changes, idk what he’s on about it being so little. and like 95/5 in favor of the changes for gameplay additions. Some people just can’t accept too much of a good thing
he's upset because the rate of change in plot deviation was stead in Remake leading up to a totally different "ending" than what happened in OG, with the explicit promise of things CONTINUING TO CHANGE. with the *hint hint nudge nudge* being Aerith's death. Pat had a fantastic prediction when the game was release that they'd have her survive and Cloud die instead, with Zack taking over his gameplay/combat role. That is some 3.33 into 4.0 level shit that could have totally worked. Yea it'd be way more divisive but it'd be COOL. Then part 3 would have been completely unpredictable, new, and different.
Max & Pat deserve medals for the mental gymnastics of justifying this game’s story. A sequel to FFVII with timetravel & mystery would be great (was it Aerith or Sephiroth?) instead of the same narrative mistakes they made with DoC, AC & Crisis Core but in a often meandering 7 years to get to the end series of games.
No Dirge’s narrative mistakes were the characters all suck, the villains are awful and it’s based around a character who’s got little beyond edgelord coolness. In Rebirth I care about everyone and love all their character development, it just doesn’t take the risks or deviations that it was implying it would take.
I would love to see a discussion between Pat and Max on FF7 Rebirth. Polar opposite sides of the spectrum
It would just be a case of Pat saying he thinks something will happen, or something symbolized something & Max being like "I think you're a bit off base here. What made you think that?" because he's too polite & well-mannered to say "You're so wrong, it's funny."
For what it’s worth, max is kind on his own delusional takes with the Jenova/Aerith idea
@skieth9999 I think that idea is interesting, and would play well with Sephiroth further taking advantage of Cloud's trauma/memory repression. It would also go to explain better why Aerith doesn't try to dissuade Cloud from going to meet sephiroth and instead making him promise he'll stop seph when she's previously been trying to help Cloud improve his mental health.
@@UltimateAnimeGamer it’s interesting in the sense that it justifies why Cloud sees Aerith without it just being her ghost in the life stream that he can see. Like, the idea that Red sensed Aerith in the end because Red also has jenova cells is kind of copium.
But I think given that the last thing we see is Aerith watching the tiny bronco fly off even without Cloud around to be hallucinating her undermines any validity of that theory. I think the reason Aerith is okay with Cloud going off to fight sephiroth is because she’s trusts that he’s strong enough to handle the trauma now. I don’t think they’re going for the plot twist as much as the straight punch. The only real mystery is the black material cloud has
@@skieth9999 I really hope max is right because I think cloud a man who gaslit himself so hard he convinced himself he had the life of another person rather than accept the trama of being powerless to save his home town being manipulated by his inability to accept the trama of aerith's death and dening it but over the 3rd game growing to accept that Aerith is gone would be an amazing character arc for him.
Pat's conversation about judging things differently based on the expectations it sets up for you is interesting to think about. Like, if he viewed it (and the game itself presented it) as being a faithful remake, he would have different "wants" and standards that he would see if it met them.
I always saw it as more Star Trek 2009 style remake, we doing basically the same story just updated and while yes that’s disappointing for some who wanted completely different story beats, I personally don’t mind.
There definitely should be 1 to 1 remake/remaster tho
@@li-limandragon9287 Of course. Everyone wants things differently, and for reasons that are mostly all valid.
Part of the issue is that it's also a sequel to a game that made a point of telling you that the events of the original game wouldn't constrain the events going forward
Considering all the articles before FF7R's release keep using the words "faithful remake" (you can search this in google, there are articles on IGN, the guardian, gamespot, gamesradar, etc) you would expect that people going were expecting a fairly faithful remake with expansion upon existing themes, locations, and characters.
They weren't expecting time ghosts and major plot changes.
Of course, fanboys will try to gaslight and say they never promised that, but I can link articles that prove it.
@@skieth9999 But everyone in these comments is arguing over what's going to happen in part 3. If what you said was true then everyone would know what happens.
I feel like killing cloud would have sucked because his whole development is finding self worth and living despite losing 2 people who made him happy only to kill him as a twist.
Pat didn't get the Tifa date so Cloud must die
@@adammaunz8230did he really not earn the date?
@@TheShockVox After trying so hard to focus her to the point of ditching other side quests, you really have to fuck up as an anti-rizz lord to get Nanaki instead.
@Rixstarian I somehow managed to get tifa so seeing 2 streamers get red is funny
@@crazygamer4260 She isn't hard to get. The only concern is that if you do all quests before Nibelheim, Aerith & Red will be higher in affinity, but once you do Fluffy, Tifa should be ahead. Even moreso if you do the Dustbowl & Choco Race ones. Pat will consistently deny that Infinite Wealth completionism played a part in him caving to side quest tax, but Pat's a fucking liar, so don't get it twisted.
I was thinking the whole set up was leading to Tifa being killed at the end, she got wayyyy more development through the game than Areith did so genuinely couldn't believe they didn't go for that
Tifa was more being built into a biggest warrior for the Planet, while Aerith was left open to being in her own other Journey instead of all offscreen Lifestream existence. Which reflects the other marketing image for Rebirth with Tifa and Aerith on different ends.
They definitely use too many dramatic Sephiroth entrances. In part 3, if Cloud... no... if ANYONE sees a black feather drifting down in front of their face, they should immediately attack upward and have Sephiroth be shocked they saw him coming.
He would be shocked for a literal second, twirl around, smile at cloud like he always does lol
@@attackofthecopyrightbots I want to see him frustrated at least once near the end. See him lament over how he lost again despite restarting everything. Especially since Rebirth barely has him deviate from the OG. Like, maybe part 3 will have the deviations, see the rest of Deepground and the Tsviets (Rebirth could have had a scene where Glenn tells Rufus about them).
@@chrisdaughen5257Just one moment of him freaking out like when Cloud beat him the first time. Dunno why have keep him smug all the time.
Once the choice to do something other than a normal remake was taken, then yes the FF7 games should have gone more into the plot deviations proper. Full derailment really. Instead we have this half and half approach that only limp wrists everything in trying to please all sides/have their cake and eat it.
I agree I just feel that they wanted to appeal to OG fans but wanted to gain new fans as well with the new story stuff. FF7R trilogy is an interesting experiment in terms of the topic of what defines a “REMAKE”
exactly, it just dulls the original story, with its bloat and flipin floplin, its just og history with worse pacing and worse stakes
@@GSLStreetFighterI honestly blame ubislop esque open world and over bloated minigames
This pretty much sums up my thoughts towards the narrative.
The ending of Remake seemed so adamant that things were going to be different going forward and, while deviations and additions were certainly present in Rebirth, the vast majority of the game followed the OG. It felt a bit disappointing, honestly, which was not helped by the rather meandering middle section of FF7 anyway. A real shame since the combat is so exciting.
Not sure which way they’re going to lean for part 3’s story.
@@TylerRuinsI definitely wouldn’t call it disappointing, Aerith’s death in particular is important and it’d be more disrespectful to the original game’s legacy to fuck with it.
People acting like he hated the game, he said he thought it was good just expected more.
that goes for both extremes im seeing in the comments here. the people here i think you're referring to *are* here, of course. people using what Pat's saying to justify calling the game "garbage" are also here.
@@miguelnewmexico8641 oh absolutely.
For me, its two things: 1) Backloading all of the deviations for the last hour, and 2) introducing even more ambiguity about the literal, tangible narrative events.
These together feel like the remake is lacking conviction in a narrative direction, like they're just waiting to decide what the 3rd game is based on how they react to the ending of the 2nd. That makes me less excited, and a greater portion of my engagement is "I need some gd answers".
Initially I thought they’re gonna have a big change and Tifa and Cloud die this time, but playing the original again on Steam, Aerith’s death is too important to be screwed with. Especially since so many new people are playing it now.
@@li-limandragon9287 What you want:
What the game actually does: *Very much not that, as it flip flops all the way through.*
See the problem?
Much game writing nowadays seems like it’s written for social media buzz than it is to tell a coherent story.
@@byronlyons3548Not flip flop, more of a bait and switch. Like Aerith herself thinks she’ll live this time and then she takes the stab for Tifa.
Ultimately, it will come down to whether or not part 3 can stick the landing. 3.0+1.0 managed to save the whole thing, despite the awkwardness of 3.33.
And I think Pat disagrees, based on the Brennan Williams episode of the podcast. Really wished they talked about it
"Save?"
I would argue that movie was the one to sink it all.
Other way around. 3.33 tried to save and make sense of 3 which was good until they did the same thing again and threw in more twists again halfway through
Thumbnail missed. Should have been Pat in profile staring up.
Rebirth was fantastic... but the problem I had with it was that the HIM sections should have been every chapter instead of like every 20 hours
Also Chadley.
tbf Midgar is also probably the most compelling and structured part of FF7 so you can mess with it more than the more standard RPG part right after
the Midgar section of the OG game really goes off the rails when you think about it.
from: "hey we're eco terrorists hellbent on destroying the evil corporation"
to: "omg this eldritch space alien x infamous war hero duo is going to literally DESTROY the planet with a meteor"
it's completely absurd. They kept all of that in there, but added a good amount of filler AND time ghost plot stuff that was at least interesting. with 7R2 they decided to take 60 of the 100 hours in a playthrough and stuff them with LOTS of filler and that's it.
@@fpejanoviceh, at least most of the filler was at least decently enjoyable. The worst was the expanded dungeons (square enix trying their damnest not to make another monster filled hallway with no meaningful puzzles) and some of the chadley stuff that got really repetitive
@@fpejanovic Hey remember "Oh god the plates is falling!! but first lets have wacky scooby doo ghost adventure!!"
The red ocean and the blood scar on the moon both where moments of just HOLD UP, WAIT A MINUTE!
and If I remember correctly Gendo gets the key of nebuchadnezzar early
I can respect Pat’s opinion through most of this, even though I personally loved more or less everything about this game, including how long it was. The only thing I can’t stand is at the end when he does the PAT thing he does and says, “I’m not remotely excited for the next game because I think this one didn’t properly deliver on a thing I expected. I now think they never should have made these games this way to begin with now.”
He does this shit all the time where he claims that something in a game/movie/whatever ruins or invalidates the experience, and that means it never should have been made to begin with. It’s the one “Patism” I have NEVER been able to get used to. Drives me crazy every time.
Pat has consistently always had a "if it doesn't meet the standards, why ever bother trying?" stance I've seen now as a pattern with different things he talks about. Music remixes, fighting game stories, and now this.
It's a weird stance contrasting from my personal views, don't get me wrong, but it is a consistent trait.
Oh my god thank you, I've been noticing him doing this more and more recently like with FF16 and Dragon's Dogma 2 and it has been driving me absolutely insane. Not liking a game is one thing, everyone likes and dislikes different stuff. I hate all 4 of the Eva rebuilds and feel like I wasted my time watching them, but I'm not gonna fight Pat over him liking them. But the way he says things like "FF7 Rebirth existing makes FF16 pointless why did they even make this" is an insane statement, it would be like me saying the ORIGINAL Evangelion was pointless because the rebuilds exist, which would be an INSANE stance if you liked those movies or not.
@@leithaziz2716 I honestly get it to an extent, like why do a thing if you're not gonna do it *better* but at the same time like... what was the standard to meet for FF7R? I get that he wanted more new stuff, but I feel like the story can only diverge so much while still calling it a remake
@@RahkshiMaster This. It is just ane insane statement. Because while I love all of them KH's combat is still better than FF7R and 16 to me. Doesn't mean the others can't exist and be good in thier own right. Which they are.
I mean, Remake set Rebirth to fail with its hyperbolic ending statement. You don't make that sort of declaration to then go on to copy-paste OG FF7 for 95% of your story (I'm taking Pat's statement at face value here, I haven't played Rebirth and have no desire to).
Calling it an unknown journey pretty much burned the bridge with folks that wanted a faithful remake and set the imagination of those that wanted change on fire, it's too late to thread the middle ground now.
Of course, you've got to keep in mind Pat's love for hyperbolic statements but still, I get what he's saying here.
Reception to the ending of Rebirth has proven decidedly mixed, moreso than I expected even after the divisive response to Remake.
As someone with no personal investment in the original FF7 and no interest in playing the Remake Project after bouncing off the first game very early, the response has been interesting to watch unfold.
Go check them out man, I cared nothing for any Final Fantasy or JRPG but fell in love with 7 when I played it on the PC and cried when I lost save files (I got back to where I was later).
Even my brother who had no personal investment checked it out and actually liked it. I recommend the Switch version because you can just fast forward through stuff and regenerate health and limit with the analogue sticks.
I've never played the original game either, so I can't add anything to the conversation. Everything I experience would be new.
I think the underlying issue is that the devs are kind of trying to have it both ways with it being a new story vs being a remake of the original and I'm not sure they're threading the needle very well.
@@leithaziz2716Do it. I used not give a single fuck about JRPGs but I played FF7 on Steam and fell in love.
The Switch version is more user friendly tho.
Remake fundamentally damaged the story for me, so Rebirth already had its path tainted.
Making FFVII a meta-narrative what if Kingdom Hearts concept just ruins the characters and themes for me beyond repair.
Y'know to each their own, but I really disagree with Pat on this one, I much prefer rebirth to Remake, and I'm glad it was more normal for most of the game, because the way it goes nuts at the end hit that much harder for me and really made me unsure of how part 3 is gonna end.
Same, to me rebirth hás way more mistery as well
This kind of feels like the same problem where he refused to finish Edgerunners because he basically decided ahead of time that it was going to be Gurren Lagann or Kill la Kill and then proclaimed it not worth watching when it wasn't balls to the walls absurd.
His repeat prediction that Cloud was going to die and Zach would take his place for the third game lasted through the whole playthrough and screams that again. Ending didn't do what he predicted, so everything up to it was not enough, and now I don't care anymore. The all or nothing hyperbole is frustrating.
@@Madman6884I think it was smart that game makes you think Tifa will die this time instead of Aerith before Aerith herself makes sure that doesn’t happen.
@@Madman6884I feel like everyone assumed that that would be the case (I think there were even false leaks close to release claiming that that was the case).
I don’t even understand why you’d be disappointed that that DIDNT happen, because I sure as hell don’t want to be stuck playing as Zack for most of Pt. III lol
I'm someone who has never played the og ff7 but generally knows the story. I played remake and thought it was pretty good but not great I mostly finished it out of the hope that the remake trilogy might have cross game saves, which I was real dissapointed when they announced that you would not be able to carry your remake save to rebirth.
I bought rebirth out of a feeling obligation that I went through all of remake. I might as well try rebirth.
I say this to highlight how huge of a suprie to me it was when I absolutely fell in love with rebirth. It might be one of my top 3 games of all time.
So, to say the least, I think Pat is absolutely crazy for thinking remake is better than rebirth.
is MGS2 the only time a game had it both ways of being a sort of meta remake of the events of the previous one, and a continuation of the story?
probably. but only because Kojima is an absurd genius
Yes.
And lots of people at the time HATED what it did
I mean, MGS1 is also that, as was MG2. Hell, from MG1 to MGS2 it's all basically the exact same game and plot structure just with better design and graphics.
Lots of sequels are just redoes of the first one. Super Metroid for example continues the story directly from 1 and 2, but the game itself might as well have been a remake of 1 for the new hardware.
Remake now seems like a Last Jedi situation, where it says, "We're going in a new direction with new things." then they get cold feet due to fan divisiveness and the next installment is a remake that causes even more disappointment.
Except multiple times before even remake kitase and nomura said we're not changing it too much and it still leads up to advent children
I think Rebirth's issue was that it was always part 2 of 3 and the decision to make part 3 NOT completely swerve like EVA 3.33 was made early enough in conceptualization that it forced Rebirth to be normal. With Rebirth hinting at Huge Materia, Aerith dying, Cloud starting to go nuts, and the devs outright saying Wutai is being integrated into main plot, it's pretty obvious Part 3 is going to go with the same template as Rebirth. It's probably going to be 70% old/reinterpretted, 25% new but sane, and 5% multiverse shit.
They should make Cloud wish for a world without SOLDIER and then he gets married to Jessie
@@Vanity0666 Cloud should get Indiana Jonesed in Rocket Town like Palmer did and get reincarnated in a high school and the game turns into a dating sim but it still has the same combat system and Queen's Blood.
@@zaneseibert Cloud should join the Imperial Japanese Flowers Division
Yep. Nomura and Kitase have said in an interview that the remake trilogy is still going to lead into Advent Children no matter what in the lead up to Rebirth, which makes it more jarring the ending of Remake was hyping up the idea of "fates been broken, anything could happen!".
Rebirth is such a full package in my eyes that the lighter swerves don't really bother me, and have me still interested in how this ends.
When's Marvel?!
Maaaaaahvel
Bring back Woolie's sign.
At some point, baby.
Cant believe i find myself fully agreeing with a Pat take but stranger things have happened.
Rebirth had one question to answer: Does it deviate from the original story drastically enough to pay off Remake's ending, or doesn't it?
It's a yes/no question, yet the developers spent pretty much the entire game bending themselves into pretzels looking for a third answer.
Its hard to be excited when the games are trying to bait you into this wacky mystery story but the developers are sat in interviews telling you that its all smoke and mirrors and that it's not going to be that different. Hard to be more excited than exhausted.
Tell us for sure then. Is aerith dead? Is Zach dead? If its the same then surely you know the answers to these questions.
Personally, I was never down with the whole "alternate timeline and characters are aware of it" direction Square went with remaking FF7. Especially if it's a self-referential sequel, meaning you're still expected to play the original to get the full grasp of everything.
Hearing Pat say how part 2 is backpeddling by staying faithful instead of diving deep into the new stuff, makes me think Square is no longer confident with the direction they initially chose.
its star wars sequel trilogy again just execs backpedaling decisions based on audience reception and the unwillingness to commit to a vision
@@7U57HTJRYGHG theyre not backpedaling at all though. the ending to me seemed to be doubling down on all that. the reason remake was so much more different imo is because the game was adapting the smallest (time wise) section of the game. midgar is not that long in the OG.
this game's problem was it was adapting most of the road trip stuff. a lot of big plot stuff, even in rebirth. doesnt really happen until the ending. i suspect things to be a lot different in the next game. also, imo thechanges in this game were about on par with remake when it comes to quantity and quality.
@maxinesmith1966 honestly I feel they made you think we could change it in remake then rebirth says no it happens and then part 3 is gonna be about how sometimes bad things happen and you can wonder what if forever or accept it, pick yourself up, and keep living.
Having now played the original and the remakes, I can easily say the Sephiroth stuff is the least interesting part of the story.
The party and relationships is what makes FF7 the best imo.
To be fair, Sephiroth is not that interesting of a villian. And he's not entertaining in a "show-stealing" manner the way Kefka is.
He's intimidating, that's always been his strength, but beyond that? Hmm.
@leithaziz2716 advent children and KH gassed him up
@@leithaziz2716I think what makes Sephiroth interesting isn’t his strength but rather is pettiness. He’s salt he’s a genetic baby, he’s salt rookie Cloud beat him and he’s salt Tifa keeps getting in the way of him messing with Cloud.
If they leaned into that aspect more rather than just treating him like pretty Darkseid I’d be more satisfied.
@@leithaziz2716his design is literally indicative of him projecting the aesthetic of strength and power outwards while being essentially being a broken child on the inside
man has never been more than a cool design and boss music riding the coattails of a really good protagonist, jenova was always a more interesting antagonist
The third part has the highest chance of going completely off the rail. If you add in Zack and DOC i have hope the last installment will be weird. Hell, even add the sephiroph trio.
On the other hand Cid might actually have charactet depth unlike the original and actually earn his place on the team instead of suddenly being elevated to leader our of nowhere despite being an asshole.
So we have to pay $210 usd for the new stuff to pay off?
@@Djamp_htx grow up.
Honestly, I think Pat needs to stop streaming long games at this point, or really just focus solely on them until it’s done.
Calling Remake better is wild to me, I could barely finish Remake because I found it so monotonous at points, whereabouts Rebirth had an almost Nintendo esque “Keep it fresh and surprising every step along the way” that is almost completely alien within the JRPG genre at this point where almost every degree of side content is legit MMO style fetch quests.
Also, I put way more stock in character than plot, so I don’t really give too much of a fuck on that front as long as I find the characters compelling, and this game absolutely nails that in almost every respect.
I am firmly in the "They should've made it a straight up remake" camp.
I totally get what Pat is saying and where he's coming from but also HOLY SHIT THEY BASICALLY MADE THE FINAL FANTASY GAME I'VE BEEN DREAMING OF FOR 20 FUCKING YEARS
FF7 Remake/Rebirth has an issue for me where it's completely uncritical in the way it looks back at FF7. Like when you watch Rebuild Evangelion, you can tell that Anno is reflecting on who he was when he first made Eva and how he's changed and its legacy in pop culture and its influence on him as an artist.
Remake/Rebirth almost feel more like a 'greatest hits' after subsequent albums failed to sell much. It's sincere but shallow
This is a really interesting take. I would've disagreed at FF7 Remake but now... I think you're on the money.
Still it’s important to note that last Rebuild got underwhelming reaction. Glad Anno got his life around but there’s such a thing as being too sanctimonious. Shin Godzilla is good movie but Minus One has the much better message imo.
@@li-limandragon9287 For sure but that's also a good comparison: Let's compare Godzilla Minus One to Godzilla x Kong New Empire as an analogy for Rebuild vs FF7 Remake/Rebirth
Minus One is creators (not even the original creators) going back to what Godzilla originally meant and symbolized nearly 70 years ago to Japanese people and approaching that same idea with modern sensibilities and perspective on things like the Japanese government, the Imperial army and the war effort against the allies. That's in the same space (albeit executed better) than Rebuild 3.0 and 4.0. There's at least some story merit there.
FF7 Remake/Rebirth honestly feels more like Godzilla x Kong New Empire. It's Fan service from top to bottom without really a strong point or reason to exist in the first place. It's basically all fluff and no meat, as far as having a distinct message or perspective from the OG 1997 game.
@@erevgd I think Remake was the wind up for something big the same way Evangelion Rebuild 1.0 and even 2.0 are the set up for some big changes in 3.0 and 4.0. I can accept that.
I think The issue is Rebirth was where they needed to make big changes or deviations to have their own story to tell and they didn't.
@@skieth9999No Rebirth definitely has heart, only a person that doesn’t give a single shit about the FF7 characters or at least thinks the original game had enough (a shallow take imo) would call it all fluff.
Trust me, I’ve lost saves files on the original and cried. The Remakes definitely have shallow fanservice but the character development and dynamics are 1000 times better than Compilation which is trash.
Can’t tell anyone how to feel, it’s always good to hear differing perspectives. That said, at least in my case, it’s clear there’s a difference in what’s valued in terms of new content and its impact on things. He’s not entirely wrong that it’s like 90-95% the same path you take compared to OG but for me personally that 5-10% that’s different holds a TON of weight to where it effectively “feels” like the % is different than it actually is. I really am intrigued by that 5% because I feel like game 3 is where it’ll throw it’s weight around to lead to an instance where on paper it’s the same plot beats but in PRACTICE it’s gonna lead to some massive emotional and cathartic moments.
but what 5% is actually different? it's basically just the multiverse stuff, but the result of that leads to the same ending as in OG + Zack.
Queen's Blood for game of the year.
the music fucking SLAPS
Most boring and easiest to break minigame. The AI farts and shits itself if you start deleting its cards and loses 95% of the time unless they SPECIFICALLY have a deck that takes advantage of it.
You never have any reason NOT to build a deck around killing your own and your enemies cards to just get a 28+ score in one lane and make the entire match pointless.
@@Null_Experis You spend half the game without the cards needed to do that.
@@wardy4903 You get Mindflayer, Flametrooper, and Midgardsormer cards in Junon. All three of those are core to a removal deck. That's the second zone in the game.
@@Null_Experis Not better than the other decks you have at that point. Which you can also beat the entire mini game questline with.
Pat says he's super down for deviations and time ghosts here, but he was super dismissive of the same thing in the Scott Pilgrim anime.
Pat is king of being flippant. He loves Mortal Kombat one day, shits all over it the next.
"I dont think scott pilgrim deserves to have the rebuild treatment." Was wild to say
@@li-limandragon9287that was super weird as a new fan. I listened to castle super beast first and then looked up on the catalog of Super Best Friends videos. I think both MK9 and MK10 I remember him being happy with the stuff in the let’s play. Then in the podcast during MK11 and MK1 he acts like it’s been garbage since MK2. He really does flip flop on a lot of opinions from what I noticed
@@crazygamer4260 The wording was strong, but personally I would have much rather just gotten a full, faithful comic adaptation since we haven't seen that on screen before
@@StardustSynchronHe was probably just sick of NRS’ bullshit. Which is perfectly fine.
I hope Chadley is the final true boss of R3
He’ll be the final boss of the side content. Rebirth hinted at it during the Nibelheim Relic Quest.
@@chrisdaughen5257
I want it to be canon content. He kills sephiroth
the mistake was ever diverging in the first place, Remake makes a loud statement "this is not gonna go the way you want it and too bad if you complain we are going places we never went to before", the whole time ghosts shit, i hated it, HATED IT with a passion but as a metaphor for the devs telling you shit will change works fine enough and 4 years later after 100 or odd hours hour Playthrough and shit DIDNT change enough im upset they didnt had the balls to fucking thrust deep and harder
its weird to feel like this
Sounds like: "If you're going to fuck me, at least fuck me like you mean it!"
Go play the pixel remaster if you want the same exact 25 year old game. It's 15 bucks on steam and came out to zero discussion because nobody cared.
my biggest gripe is that the plot all leads up to THE big change... only for them to get cold feet at the last second, so the 95% unchanged felt even worse
I really don't see how Remake was that much different from OG compared to Rebirth. If anything I'd say its mostly the same ratio but Rebirth has more "deviate" moments sprinkled throughout the game plus pretty much every area or plot beat gets the expanded Wall Market treatment from Remake so that's still a new take on old stuff. I get that's not exactly what Pat wanted but he's really acting like Rebirth did absolutely nothing new. Personally when it did start to deviate I thought it did so in more interesting ways than Remake did I'm still pretty excited for part 3.
Yeah I don't agree with pat at all about the ratio business. It has the same amount of exposure to new fucky plot ghosts stuff that remake had. Gongaga is completely expanded as well
Setting expectations wrong and getting people upset that way seems to be the name of the game in general. After all Remake already wasn't really a remake but a time/dimension-loopy sequel instead of a remake. But because of the name people expected a remake and were then upset when those expectations were not met. Not the expectaions were that it's gonna be different but it wasn't so now people can be upset because of unemt expectations again.
Really looking forward to Woolie finally playing through it, this feels like a fairly pointless discussion to have without both having the full context of completing the game.
I'm just glad Woolie knows Pat's nonsense enough that he can go into it without all this hyperbole tainting his ability to enjoy it
@@Madman6884 honestly it might actually work out for the best as a form of tempering expectations, kind of exactly like what happened with FFXVI and Pat complaining incessantly over the poor quality of the side content.
I honestly don't understand the complaint of it wasn't different enough, there was plenty of new stuff that still leaves up in the air whats happening so idk what people want outside of killing off everyone but cloud like they originally were gonna do for the original game
The absolute worst thing that can happen is Gackt walking through a portal with young Sephiroth and telling Cloud they all have to kill god.
I don’t trust square Enix enough to say that isn’t a possibility.
I'll say this: each FF7R entry so far has a guy with a red color scheme join the party before the endgame. What color does G wear?
I hope it happens cause it's what people like Max who hate Genesis deserve
I feel like Pat stares At should just Become Pat crys At, Everytime I hear him talk lately he's just discontent about everything, and whenever I hear his reasons I really try to see things from his view, but I feel like none of his critiques are ever objective, just him saying "but I wanted...." And describing a super specific experience he wants to have that sounds like it's less about a good experience, and more about him wanting a design that doesn't affect his "mind goblins"
I found myself really satisfied with the plot because it's been decades since I played the original game and most of this comes off as "I don't remember this at all." The minigame bloat is a problem tho.
I'm so glad we didn't get a half-assed job like the RE3 Remake
RE3make makes me sad, it feels like a filler game when it had all the pieces to be amazing.
Hope the Code Veronica rumours are true.
For real what a bad remake that was
I'll always respect Pat and Woolie for being Ok and even encouraging change even when most of their audience is like, no just give me the thing I already like again
because they themselves even understand that point a view and like pat said, its easier to accept change when they just go through with it and not half ass it like they're afraid of alienating people, FF is about taking Risk more than most series so taking a Risk just to walk it back feels cowardly even if the reason for doing so is to appease those that came before
Walk what back? There's still mystery because of deviation. Tell us what's going on with aerith and Zach. Because this is nothing like where they were at thus point in the og.
Rebirth was fantastic
I agree with Pat. They either should have made a faithful remake for the trilogy with new stuff like Roche and slightly influence some scenes to fit the overall canon or gone full insane in rebirth. That a nice boat. It would be a shame if it was sinking thanks to sephiroth Or nibelheim started burning again once cloud and the party visit. Or Dyne through a butterfly effect, lived.
They didn't commit to either a faithful remake or the unknown journey.
I think the biggest issue with the R project is Square being unable, or unwilling, to retcon Advent Children out of existence. They've made sure to leave nods to pretty much the entirety of FF7 related material, and as an accomodation to every kind of fan, it is great. But 'FF7 Compilation' does not fit into a single, cohesive whole any way you look at it. And both R games so far didn't rewrite it all to fit, they have instead been forced to fit themselves into being a sequel to Advent Children. Which hurt everything across the board, in my opinion.
Individual segments have a lot of good storytelling stuff, but the overarching plot is left hanging in a vague limbo that doesn't look like it is going to have a satisfying resolution in the remaining game.
They think AC was some kind of achievement rather than an uncanny valley mess.
@@li-limandragon9287 you're thinking of Spirits Within.
@@miguelnewmexico8641They both suck. Even the RE CG movies are better.
I wrote it in my review of Rebirth, but it felt like Remake was an significant look at the nature of remakes and nostalgia from the perspective of the creator, wanting to make something new and invigorating then rehash the past when no matter what you can’t recreate FF7, especially it’s impact. Reminded me a lot of The Matrix Resurrections, yet Rebirth lacks that bite and confidence Remake had
Was part of the criticism of nostalgia the 5 tedious dungeons where you had to pump cranks/move robot hands/connect electricity? Because those were dire, and Rebirth was a joy to play
@@adammaunz8230 Rebirth also drags heavily as well as struggles with tone, Barrett’s chapter is a prime example. I agree Remake had bad filler but that doesn’t also mean Rebirth is flawless, that and I was mainly discussing narrative
@@charlestonobryant807 Barretts got some of the best parts.
Except, this is a video game, the one media format where a flat out remake makes sense.
Same story, new visuals, new gameplay, with maybe some extra new stuff added in to better tie in sequel content or retcon some bad writin or fix poor translations or whatever.
The GameCube remake of Resident Evil or the GBA remake of Metriod are both damn near universally praised for a reason.
Complaining that the game is too faithful when so much of the content is expanding the scenarios and character moments that did NOT exist in the original is crazy to me. Sure not so much plot ghost stuff but to say that it’s all just the same game remade is wild. The characters get so much more time to breath and interact and each set piece is huge. Sure it’s technically the same beats but way expanded.
And the changes are more subtle, Cloud is way more affected by the Jenova shit, his visions are different, he remembers Zack etc. the additions aren’t in your face but they’re there
Cloud is remembering more stuff and Tifa is out here telling him not to talk to anyone about it but her and also telling others not to confront him about anything cause she wants to handle it like gurl you aren't his keeper! So these changes are happening but not being talked about among the cast, leaving this strange tension. I want to see how it pays off later now that Cloud can communicate with Aerith in the other timeline.
I understand Pat's reaction and it's fair, but honestly I've been saying Remake is 95% faithful and then a swerve at the end and the devs have been saying for 4 years that the story will follow the same beats, but put in some extra stuff to keep it exciting so I felt like they kept that promise. All the extra character moments and fleshed out events and wacky anime side stories on top of the main story is what I was looking for. But I can't get upset at Pat or anyone since it's not like everyone reads those interviews and they put Zack in the cover so I have to agree thay they do want to pretend that they were going to go into a crazier direction, even if that was never the intention.
Agree, the party and their relationships are what makes FF7 for me, I don’t need alternate timelines and characters dying/coming back to life to enjoy it
I mean they do kinda go into a crazy direction its just that's its sprinkled throughout the game in bits and pieces and then you get a big chunk of it at the end. I'm fine with how everything was handled I liked the game a lot but they could have utilized Zack a little bit more or at least not split up his sections as much as they did. Its insane that they made an entire moveset and mechanics for Zack and you don't even get the tutorial for him until you're literally fighting the final boss.
WE DIDNT NEED TO THIS GUY
WE COULD JUST HAVE THE BEAT BY BEAT REMAKE AND EVERYONE WOULDVE BEEN FINE BY IT INSTEAD OF HALF ASSING THIS EVA REBUILD SHIT
@@7U57HTJRYGHG have you ever even seen the sun?
Rebirth was amazing I can’t believe what Pat said
Classic case of Pat being hyperbolic and negatively skewing Woolie’s perception
Nah Pats reaction is pretty common in the forums
@@Wiffernubbinpretty common in the forums is just another way to say a vocal minority is mad. "Yo this game that has 90+/90 critics and user scores is actually not that good though"
@@DemonFireRain I think you're being unfair too, though. I think Rebirth is a 9/10 video game experience but I think that the lack of clarity in narrative direction is almost crippling in my experience of the story.
Like, 4 years ago the fanbase exploded with debate about the 'Unknown Journey' and initially I hated the Remake ending but warmed up to it. But despite promising an 'unknown journey', Rebirth follows the story more closely than the story BEFORE the Harbinger was killed and freedom became 'boundless'.
It comes off as murky and confused. Saying that people's criticism is hyperbolic and unfair because gaming journalists came to roughly the same score is quite dismissive.
Woolie is an adult and should know better than just listening to a single opinion (Pat), he is gonna be fine I promise. Also even if he does end up sharing Pat's feelings towards rebirth, it really isn't that big of a deal, it's just a video game.
@@ItsCassius I would only not be dismissive if there was a massive disparity between the critic and user scores, but there isn't. Negative forum posts from a vocal minority don't supersede user review metrics everywhere else. Of course there are things to criticize about the game, I'm not denying that.
I've got complaints too. But I'm not going to pretend that the "forum" people are being fully fair and non-hyperbolic too. You can see it in these comments right now, people saying the game is trash, etc. There's also a vocal minority that hates everything regardless of the actual quality of the thing. I dismiss those opinions when I don't think they're actually valuable or reflecting the reality of the product.
what I've learned throughout my life: not everyone's opinion is worth listening to.
As far as i know, the thing that most people praise about FF7 Rebirth is the "open field" exploration and side quests, the combat, mainly because the new gameplay mechanics and playable characters (if FF7 Remake combat was great then FF7 Rebirth combat is greater), the party interactions in dialogues and cutcenes, and some bit and pieces of the main story but not complete story as a whole and sadly, the most important part of it, that being Aerith's demise, didn't stick the landing which is the major point of criticism that most people have.
Yeah, I wanted a 1:1 remake or something new, not this weird hybrid thing that leaves me dissatisfied with both aspects.
It's a part of why I haven't jumped in on these games at all. Like, if it was just a straight remake there wouldn't have been a problem, but then I caught wind that it was actually a stealth sequel to the original, which I haven't gotten around to beating yet. Oh, and apparently now I'll have to have played Crisis Core Reunion and Dirge of frigging Cerberus too? Thanks, Nomura.
@jimmynicol7942
You’d have to possess insane “not all the treasures in heaven could satisfy me” Smash Bros fan mindset to say it’s completely unsatisfying the character dynamics alone are worth it for me.
It’s conflicted yes and they should definitely just made remaster years ago, but I’m happy with we’ve gotten. AC and Dirge are nowhere near as fun to play.
I remember reading an interview with one of the devs saying that the story is still on track towards the Advent Children story.
If that's the case, why include all of the extra plot ghosts and the fate stuff and the subtext with Aerith and Sephiroth?
Pat's going to be pissed when Rebirth wins GoTY and he realizes he let his mind goblins ruin one of the best RPGs of the last decade for him.
Woolie's going to pass on rebirth until it wins and realize he let pat talk him out of playing an amazing game. Kinda disappointed he didnt dig in and press pat for some positives, force him to talk about the amazing combat/music/visuals/characters/VA work... you know... the actual meat of the game.
Bro acting dissapointed as if he wasnt crying at major moments on stream lmao
LOLL please give me an example
Knowing Pat he loved the ending until a youtube essay told him he actually shouldn't and now he's echoing that.
He said it ended strong. The point is that you can be disappointed with something on the whole, even if it had really strong moments. You literally missed the forest for the trees
y'all know you can really enjoy something but still have issues with it right? That's a whole thing you can do no one can stop you
@@minigmaenigma i don't think anyone in the comments is saying the game is perfect or without flaws. I loved the game but if course it has issues. I think some people just find Pat's hyperbole and "Pat-isms" tired at this point.
95% seems a bit high, in my opinion.
Pat literally only speaks in hyperbole. 95% translates to about 70% in human speak.
@@masterxl97 id say 70 percent is too much too tbh.but that is mroe a statement on the scale of this game.
Rebirth is an amazing game and I cant wait to see how the story end in part 3.
Hot Take: End of Evangelion *one* mecha fight (you know the one) is better than all the mecha fights of the Rebuild movies combined.
Yeah, I definitely prefer how fights were choreographed in the anime/eoe.
I never played the original _Final Fantasy VII,_ so when I heard that it was getting remade, I was intrigued. But then I heard that the remake also changed significant plot pints and also demands that you have played the original to understand how the story has changed, which, I didn't play the original, so I guess I would have trouble following the new one? I honestly don't know how familiar you have to be with _FF7_ to be able to follow this new game.
Don't touch it unless you play the original first.
@@theredcomet5670I think you can play the remakes first if you want. I love the OG but it’s not user friendly.
@li-limandragon9287 Playing the remakes first will spoil major late game reveals almost 100 hours before they happen. It will make your experience of the remakes more confusing because they reference events you have not seen and will spoil major parts of the original early as well. It literally makes both versions worse if you play the remakes first. The original game is not that hard to pick up and play, I played through it for the first time on an emulator on my phone when I was 13.
Honestly, you should just go ahead and play them. You're playing these games for the characters.
You don't need to worry about spoilers. People like to say that remake and rebirth spoil so much about FF7, but that's not really true. The things people see that they claim are "spoilers" won't mean anything to someone who doesn't know much about FF7. I have friends who are having a great time with the remake series and they've never played the original. Hearing their theories is exciting because they know nothing about what's coming and I think that's a good thing.
So try them out! Enjoy the characters, explore the combat and materia system, have a laugh, fight a house, and ignore the fanbase lol your experience won't be tainted. If anything this might encourage you to play the original after these games
@thatoneguy5969 I think it's worth pointing out that the original FF7 has a very strong story in addition to a great cast of characters. I have never heard anyone say this stuff about "only coming to this game for the characters" said in reference to the original Final Fantasy 7.
Sephiroth just wanted to be normal. i wish i could fix him
He deserves Tifa cucking him, he didn’t need to be such a douche.
He only wants Cloud to fix him and Tifa is cucking too hard to let that happen.
I like how their major complaint about Rebirth is that it isn't 13-2, but I'm also pretty certain that they haven't played 13-2
I pity anyone who’s played 13 or 13-2
A better comparison would have been X-2
@@li-limandragon928713-2 wasn’t too bad I’d it was best out of the trilogy
@@1wayroad935 The thing X-2 is that it follows up after a point that is framed as a conclusion to the story, that being the ending of the 1st game. It was gunna rub you the wrong way no matter what.
(This is not me talking about the concept of sequels. I mean that the OG game gave the impression that you weren't ever gonna see more of this world.)
@@leithaziz2716 i mean i enjoyed x-2 as a kid, it was fun. getting to see all the old gang and bounce around spira with a remix was cool.
Shinra Manor is in no way close to the more bloated parts of Remake.
I appreciate that the ending of Remake made people think they were gonna go crazy and take it in an all new direction, but what I felt at the time was that every change made in Remake was made to justify them only having the money to make one small part of the original game. For practical reasons, you know. "The original content isn't enough for a full priced title, so we gotta pad it out with sidequest hubs. Gotta have extra time with this or that character, gotta do this or that pointless side character's backstory. We need some extra sewer tunnels over here. We need this lab part to be a couple hours longer".
The main new plot thread with the ghosts is there for a very obvious reason: Gotta set something up so there's a more climactic final boss than a robot on the road - "How do we get a Sephiroth boss in this game?". That's all they were doing, and they just chose dumb "personification of metaphor" stuff to make it work, 'cause this is the kinda bs they write in, like, most of their games. Of course the heroes weren't gonna go on some entirely brave new story afterwards, besides where they need to because the next game also only covers a portion of the original, and needs its own intro and climax and stuff to be functional.
Their problem was not being able to just remake the whole game in one go. If they had been, I'd bet everything I own that they'd never have included that ghost nonsense, the sidequests, the early sephiroth boss etc begin with. It's not some artistic decision to re-examine the story or whatever. It's part of a practical solution to the problem of not being able to make a game as long as the original FF7 with the modern fidelity they wanted to portray it with.
I'd argue they should've remade it like Link's Awakening was remade instead, but I guess that wasn't an option for them. I can understand their decision since I get the appeal of a 3rd person action rpg showing off the setting like that, but to me the tradeoffs weren't worth it in the end.
I get Pat's baseline premise. But I disagree with it because the context in which these story beats happen is even more dramatically different than Remake let on even if the story beats themselves are not really much different. It's the difference between romancing Garrus and not romancing Garrus, not much is actually that different besides the new smoochin' bits, but the contextual read is VERY different. The primary problem is as Pat said, the back-loaded bits maybe should have been implied a little bit fucking sooner. That said I would *hope* Part 3 actually follows through and GOES FARTHER.
As someone whose never played og ff7 I much prefer rebirth over remake as a game. The missions were trash, lack of diversity in locations, Midgard as a whole is not interesting enough of an area to have 40 hours of gameplay dedicated to it. Whereas rebirth was more expansive and had more lore for new fans to get into.
I'm not sure how much I trust Pat on this, his takes have been BAD as of late, and by as of late I mean his entire life.
That being said, HEY FIGHTING GAMERS!
WHENS MAHVEL!?
😢 Scoob and shag
Why would anyone trust Pat's opinion on something?
@@invaderpez12 the ability of [Crazy Talk] sometimes makes him very convincing in the moment.
@@Gh0stWh33l oh fair point.
Don't trust him. He lacks integrity to his playthrough that just made me regret watching what I had, & not finishing it at all.
They ruined her death scene in my eyes, everything else aside I feel really weird about how much that moment has changed.
It’s just a bit too cluttered. What makes it so effective in the original is the minimalism. Still I think they were trying to make players second guess whether she’d die or not right up until the last minute
@@li-limandragon9287 Gotta fuel those lore videos on TH-cam to get the audience more invested in the next game somehow.
Everything from when Sephiroth appeared after the temple of the ancients collapsed had me confused which really ruined the emotion of the scene for me
"Why isn't the gang immediately stopping cloud from going to sephiroth, does only cloud see him?" "Is aerith alive or not alive?" "Is this actuality Sephiroth Prime or Jenova?"
So many questions and as the credits rolled I was kinda pissed. I wamted answers and all I got was a bunch of "I dunno"
Looking back at the scenes I can see a bunch of the subtle details and hints that are interwoven nicely with the actual plot and the meta-plot. But as a player in the moment? It was just frustration, confusion, and disappointment. They ended it poorly by having no clear answers and mixing it into what was once an important emotional scene.
How can you be emotional if you don't know what even happened?
@@Eidlones what a miserable thing to take away from that.
@@miguelnewmexico8641 I mean, it's not like it's the first time that team pulls that stunt. Kingdom Hearts has literally been keeping hostage its fanbase with the ol' mystery box trick for almost 20 years now. Even the long awaited KH3 ended up creating more questions than it answered despite being the end of a saga.
5:05 - That was a pretty long pause.
Pat is actually insane. Rebirth diverges WILDLY from the original, the only similarities that exists are the core locations EXIST to some degree, and a handful of events that you expect to occur happen.
That accounts for about 15-20% of the game, and it's all PERFECTLY ENJOYABLE. The core experience is the ONLY GOOD THING IN THE GAME.
That parts that drag it down is literally everything else. How overdrawn and painfully stretched each section is because you can literally feel the devs desperately trying to extend the length of the game without having the courage to actually delve into characters like they did in remake.
You go to kalm, things happen pretty much the same, and you leave and get a laundy list of Assasins Creed area objectives before moving on to the next setpiece.
They TEASE some new and expanded lore, with the scene with tifa on the roof, and the ex-soldier innkeeper, but you can taste the cowardice as these plot points are dropped and the much easier safety move of Empty Open World Objectives is shoved in your face.
Imagine if they expanded the flashback in Kalm to an entire chapter of content.
Imagine if Kalm had actual named characters with some story and a reason to stay there for longer and it wasn't just filled with UE4 NPC assets in modern street clothing.
I never wanted an evangelion in the first place so everything pat says just sounds appealing to me. People saying that a 1:1 remake would be boring sound crazy to me because they KNOW the original game is nuts and theres so much you can do with that while still being faithful.
Yeah, don't get the wrong idea. Pat is totally wrong about how faithful Rebirth is. It doesn't have as many massive changes as Remake, but it is littered with smaller changes that REALLY add up add the game goes on. You seem like you have played the original, so I'll give an example below so people casually scrolling don't get spoiled.
SPOILER:
After the Kalm flashback there is a cutscene where Tifa and Aerith are alone and Tifa turns to Aerith and just outright tells her that she never saw Cloud at Niebelheim and that he sounded insane. She might even name-drop Zach but I don't remember for sure. I assume you've played the original, so I'm sure you can understand how dramatically that changes the way the story is told even if it is a seemingly small detail and doesn't TECHNICALLY change the timeline. Also there is an annoying sequence where Shinra raids Kalm searching for the party and you have to escape, and it's basically an elongated forced walking section where you just follow an npc. It's basically stuff like that throughout the game in addition to the outright timeline changes that are there. It is NOT a 1:1 and people saying stuff like what Pat said is what led to me picking the game up and being super disappointed. DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKE.
The problem is that it's way too late for that at this point. The first game already made a hard declaration on how this wasn't going to be a faithful remake and how the future was going to be wildly different. They can't really back down from that, they've already alienated anyone that just wanted a remake. Except they backpeddled anyway and now nobody's satisfied.
@@theredcomet5670It’s not disappointing, it’s just both it and Remake expect you to know the original story. I mean Tifa just does what Hojo does. revealing the twist too early.
I don’t like it but it doesn’t ruin the game for me.
@li-limandragon9287 I just think it's a less interesting way of telling the story, even if you do know the story already. Plus I don't think there was any benefit to writing the game with the assumption that everyone playing already knew the story of FF7. Why spoil it for new people to begin with? I always thought it was more interesting on replays just seeing the different pieces that didn't line up that you never noticed on the first run. It felt like the game was inviting you to really engage with its themes and story in a way that I think the remake games totally fail to capture.
@@theredcomet5670In fairness, I was already spoiled on the major story beats by the time I played the OG.
I actually think ogFF7 still holds up pretty well even today, so when remake went “this is actually a sequel, and from here onwards big plot changes can happen” I was actually excited. So yeah when this game ended up basically being the same as ogFF7 , but more complicated, I wasn’t a fan. Don’t get me wrong, the game is good, and what they added to the story was good, but every change except for Zack being alive (and even that ends up not being a big deal), doesn’t CHANGE anything, it just adds details.
So now I have no expectations. If I go in expecting it be like rebirth, and go basically the same path as the OG with extra steps and padding, cool I guess, but honestly I’m fine with just going back to the original for that, especially after what part 1 set up, and if I go in expecting actual changes like I did with rebirth, I’m just gonna be waiting for something to happen and get disappointed when nothing does.
I’m still gonna buy part 3 because I’m too invested now, and I REALLY hope they surprise me, but I expect disappointment.
Now big caveat if part 3 does go hog wild, and executes the stuff set up in part 2 well that would absolutely retroactively change my opinions on rebirth into being just a banger of a set up, because it still is a really good game, it just didn’t use what remake set up very well.
so, hi guys, ya boy beat original ff7 maybe a year ago; are the remake editions straight up like alternate timelines of what the og story does? like that's the implication i've seen brought up a bunch but almost no confirmation? help
Kinda. FF7 Remake Intergrade actually screams "I'm a sequel". It has many "new" characters and concepts added into the story that come from FF7's many post game novels & side content, plus alterations to canon events that to stay spoiler free just can't be there any other way.
Did Woolie or Pat ever watch the last Rebuild of Evangelion movie?
Did anyone? I keep forgetting that 3.0 even got released outside Japan.
@@RipOffProductionsLLC i mean, anyone who wanted to watch it probably watched one way or another.
I have to agree with pat because the problem is not that is similar to the original story but that not enough new crazy stuff happens.
I would rather way more new stuff than side quests.
Queen's blood was amazing though
I said it after I finished remake: They're gonna go off on new story beats like the ending promised, and piss off even more fans.
Or they're gonna change basically nothing but add in some random things to justify the ending, which ultimately makes the entire point of remake's story pointless.
Either way, it'll fail at what it's trying to do.
Seems like I was right.
@@Eidlones it must suck being this cynical and bitter.
modern FF fanbase is just slopfiends. I will never forget how let down I was with XV, until I realized it was just a cult.
yea 15 wasn't great. 16 was a bit better. there is disappointment in 7R2 not actually being different. I mean what, the last good FF game was like 15 years ago with FF12
I haven't enjoyed any FF since 10 (aside from FXIV)
I like how this clip has no mention of Rebuild in it at all. I get the comparison between Remake and Rebuild, but at least have the clip directly compare them because I don't even think it touches on the problem of Rebuild, if anything it does the opposite.
it's kinda a spoiler, no? I don't think Pat wants Woolie to know it's almost/kinda/but not really a 3.33 scenario. Pat WISHES it was, and is disappointed (like i am as well) that it's not.
@@fpejanovic It doesn't really spoiler specific elements to compare the 2 conceptually, by this point mot people know what rebuild did, its moreso that the comparison isn't even drawn at all, which would have been more interesting that the Force Awakens one.
I think Rebirth is a fantastic game, but Pat's main criticism is correct. It does feel like a retreat from the courageous battle charge against the de facto lore of FF7 that Remake was. I'm certainly committed to seeing what the next game has, but if it disappoints me by doing what this game did I'm going to feel like I wasted my time and emotional energy on it.
The game definitely had side content issues. It tries doing EVERYTHING from side quests, challenge fights, and open world mapping. These things are all fine, but the amount there is drowns out the draw of the story players started the game for. Either cut down the amount of stuff, or reduce the number of side activities to one or two. 70% of your story-focused game shouldn't be spent doing side content.
As for the story, the whole semi-remake premise seems shaky. I think FF7R was always going to be structured in separate releases, but the devs didn't want fans to wait 8 years for a story that came out complete in its original release. So their solution was to add the Whispers to add enough intrigue for long-time fans to wait while telling the original story as closely as possible.
but pat what about the whole cissnei segment? Idk at this point pats just being picky there’s plenty of stuff they changed. Weird standards guess you can please everyone all of the time
I mean I don't really have much of a problem with the remakes even though I love the OG dearly. I think things are going in a fine direction. Game was fun and kept me hooked enough to basically 100% the game. Either way we would have some camp of people that were disappointed.
I'm waiting for the steam release but I would be lying if I said I was really looking forward to Rebirth.
I like Pat, will try to grind everything and it pains me to admit that it's probably not worth it for this game.
Still, it's FF7 tho, so what can ya do?
I think it’s funny how despite calling it the “Rebuild of Evangelion” problem, Evangelion is like the only series to pull it off by the end that doesn’t leave a bad taste in your mouth for wanting what you were originally sold.
It’s the most psychotic brain-melting divisive example, but that’s pretty much Eva’s M.O from the very start. Unless you’re really on point catching the tiny details, the rug-pull hits so much better.
Not to say FFVII or Scott Pilgrim Takes Off etc aren’t still awesome, but I know Scott Pilgrim is a huge example of “love what we got but wish we got what we love”.
That's only because the last movie stuck the landing. The waiting period after 3.33 was miserable.
Eva has the OG series + DoE for the people that like that, and then for those that (also) want something different there's the rebuild - which is an absolutely bonkers wild adaptation/retelling/sequel. It keeps all of the same energy of the OG series and just goes left where the OG went right. I agree with Pat that it would have been awesome if 7R2 had done that.
The problem with making it a 95-5 RE style remake is that there's just too much bloat. It works for 7R1 because it needed some fleshing out and even the side quests don't overstay their welcome. Rebirth just drowns you in world intel and campy johnny nonsense for 60 of the 100 hours.
@@fpejanovic there are lots of fair criticisms out there, and even unfair ones i could see; but how dare you talk about Johnny like that.
@@1wayroad935you are 1000% correct and I feel this is the most important point.
I have hope for FFVII but boy does it have to stick that landing
not different enough??? did we play the same game here or whats going on? Did the whole changes to the story in Junon, Gongaga (best zone in the game too btw, if he had trouble navigating it lmao thats too bad for him), the origins of the Black Materia, Nibelheim , the Temple, and the very ending fights not feel different enough for him?
Also funny considering this is his take considering his high disappointment at the recent Scott Pilgrim series for being different lol
it was pretty clear from the first episode that remake was going in this direction dunno why anyone would be surprised
1:53 its cos of all those people that got mad at the first episode
If squeenix straight up remade FF7, then how would they charge you $60 for every half hour of gameplay?
I am gonna straight disagree with Pat that Remake is better. It's good but Rebirth takes all the concepts that Remake had and ran with them. I also found the stuff that tried to diverge from the main story way too convoluted and stupid. It's really uninteresting because it tries WAY too hard put out confusing twists so that they can keep you hanging for the third and final instalment.
We know the solution... Its demon's souls, dark souls, bloodborne elden ring.
Its familiar, but different. You can let go and do something similar while telling a more realized story.
Xenogears/saga/blade does it too. I’m only through chapter 3 of Chronicles 2 and there is so much of the same storytelling and foreshadowing from gears. Unfortunately the serious parts and cringe are always minutes away from eachother.
Isn't that just...how all of FF works? Every game is a new setting with a new cast of characters.
It's not a groundbreaking solution to Square.
@@TheMilhouseExperience If you're early on with Xenoblade 2, I highly recommend pushing forward.
That game is infamous for having a really bad start that doesn't reflect the quality of the rest of the journey.
@@TheMilhouseExperience Yeah, don't know about cringe, as it isn't really cringe that much or at all, in all honesty. At least it's better than introducing a character, and dropping them all entirely for the rest of the game, the moment their arc gets done, of what little there is. And then they just sit there, in your party, the whole game. Looking at you Xenogears and Saga. Nothing is more cringe than that, and how many times that happens.
personally i love rebirth slightly more than remake but idk how you could realistically do a game that fully departs from the original without pissing off alot of people, the compromise that the game makes ultimately make alot of sense imo
Woolie I hope you read some of these because I have to state that the way Pat experienced it, as in under time limits and a nice chunky break inbetween playing it, definitely skews things in a negative light.
Has Woolie not played Rebirth yet?
The more hype/ talk he hears about a particular piece of media the less likely he is to engage with it before 5-10 years pass
Hipster's razor, so to speak.
@@tylerlackey1175 didn't he play Remake, at release?
@@BigOtakuGamerSHAWNY yes he got hands on with the demo. Here, he simply has pat and Twitter grapefruiting the shit out of square which means he will never touch this game
It'll be what always happens, Pat played new big game, Woolie plans to get to it in 3-5 years. Pat beats big game, has weird Pat reaction to big game, unloads it on Woolie in the podcast and completely colors Woolie's opinions on it and then Woolie goes into it eventually, if at all, with that preloaded opinion.
@@DemonFireRain that's called talking about something with a friend lol
Rebirth, completely exposes the fact that, the deviations of remake were just made so they can bait and create a false mystery to sell you 3 games. They never had anything to say using the og story, this remake trilogy is just a product
Woolie, please don't let Pat's negative takes on Rebirth and not being hyped for the third game taint your experience beforehand. Check out Max's non-spoiler review to see just how much a hyper fan of the original game absolutely loves Rebirth. He's even said that the more he sits on and thinks about it, the more he finds to love it and get excited for the end of the trilogy.
as someone that share's Pat's disappointment in the ending being basically the same as in OG, i have also gotten around to being cool with it because of the added character development they did for everyone in the party - particularly Cloud and Aerith who are absolutely tragic characters in retrospect.
So, instead of letting a biased take color his perception, he should let a more biased take do it instead?
I wouldn't recommend Max's videos on the game. I like Max and have a lot of respect for him, but he genuinely comes off as being incapable of critical thought when it comes to the remake project. I don't think his feelings are inauthentic or anything, I just think that he loves these characters and world so much that he would be happy with pretty much anything as long as the game got that mostly right. Woolie is not an FF7 super fan, and I am positive that many of the design and narrative choices in Rebirth will not be his cup of tea no matter how fun the characters are in isolation. It is better for him to go in with low expectations and be pleasantly surprised than go in with high expectations and be disappointed.
"Don't listen to this biased opinion that I disagree with, listen to THIS biased opinion because it's the one that I AGREE with".
Max doesn't get or understand FF7, it's clear on how much he loves this dumb FF13/KH nonsense that he never did
Well that’s quite the blow against people who say it’s entirely different, I’ll say
I love Pat. I haven't finished Rebirth yet, I just kind of dropped it 'casue I wasn't having fun haha. I don't hate it! But like, it's not as good as Remake in my eyes.
Man i jumped when pat mentioned RE remake, i use to compare that game withFF7R in the basis of rythm. This game simply has none of that, and although i loved the start and the end i was so deflated at the end that i kind of need to replay the story and JUST the story of rebirth. Not to make justice to the game, but to make justice to my expectations. Idk if this even makes sense but eh.
The rebuild started with subtle changes that fueled natural speculation. Meanwhile, remake blows it's load on your face leaving only schizo ramblings based on nothing to make any of this interesting.
I don’t get this complaint. You get a genuine remake, a remake with new story content that can fit into the original, and the meta timeline “what is a remake” shit
Like, why are you complaining? They did both, like you said. You can do both. They did. Most of the actual story content is changed if you actually look back at it, granted a lot of it fits into the OG games continuity
It’s like 65/35 in terms of major story content changes, idk what he’s on about it being so little. and like 95/5 in favor of the changes for gameplay additions. Some people just can’t accept too much of a good thing
he's upset because the rate of change in plot deviation was stead in Remake leading up to a totally different "ending" than what happened in OG, with the explicit promise of things CONTINUING TO CHANGE. with the *hint hint nudge nudge* being Aerith's death. Pat had a fantastic prediction when the game was release that they'd have her survive and Cloud die instead, with Zack taking over his gameplay/combat role. That is some 3.33 into 4.0 level shit that could have totally worked. Yea it'd be way more divisive but it'd be COOL. Then part 3 would have been completely unpredictable, new, and different.
Max & Pat deserve medals for the mental gymnastics of justifying this game’s story. A sequel to FFVII with timetravel & mystery would be great (was it Aerith or Sephiroth?) instead of the same narrative mistakes they made with DoC, AC & Crisis Core but in a often meandering 7 years to get to the end series of games.
No Dirge’s narrative mistakes were the characters all suck, the villains are awful and it’s based around a character who’s got little beyond edgelord coolness.
In Rebirth I care about everyone and love all their character development, it just doesn’t take the risks or deviations that it was implying it would take.