MMOs Built Different | Castle Super Beast Clips
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@A_D_Art - เกม
Woolie, a fighting games fan, finding out what happens when a game makes money.
XD
This comment is unironically one of the best posts I've seen in years. This made me cry pure salt as my water reservoir had completely depleted. God damn. XD
That's one way to just murder Woolie dude
This hurts in my soul, because I know it's true. But also I live ffxiv so that dulls the pain a bit!
Musta been a godamn culture shock
Remember when Blizzard "lost" the source code for vanilla WoW,
and then private servers reverse-engineered it on their own time to make vanilla WoW work,
and then Blizzard used those reverse-engineered codes for their legacy servers?
Pepperidge Farm Remembers.
Did they? WoW Classic is actually built on the modern game server and client code, because it needs to hook into the new battle.net and .casc file system they use. It's literally a branch directory in the retail client that shares resources. Maybe they referenced private server code to make the classic tweaks, but they also recovered some of the lost source code from hard drives in storage and used that. There was a lot of inaccurate stuff on the private servers that they fixed.
Woolie can't process the fact that it is now completely plausible to support a game forever.
Forever is never plausible
@@ZomifiedHam It absolutely is, but at some point the game will by necessity get Ship of Theseus'd to make up for technical debt
I will never be not flabbergasted by the fact that Masayoshi Soken wrote "To the Edge" in a goddamn hospital bed while fighting cancer. christ.
That fucking song personified his fight with it, and the fact that he still lives on proves how much of a Warrior of Light that man is.
What I want is for disheveled torn clothes Hildibrand to have the same textures and when he switches to normal Hildibrand, he jumps forward like 2 generations in graphics. That’s all I want.
Same with Godbert, but opposite. He strips down and becomes a PS5 Demon’s Souls model
im late to this but im realizing that it is totally within their power and sense of humor to use the "square enix hire this man" style they said they werent doing for a joke in hildibrand
"The most popular items will be getting their HD textures first."
The elated cheers of a million catboys in Limsa wearing Thavnairian Bustiers was heard across the cosmos.
that and the 2B bottoms.
this pleases my DNC brain.
But it's not very hard to mod in HD texture packs. I haven't played for a while but when I was, I used an HD texture pack and shader mods. Textures and armor models are client side so you can completely change a piece of armor if you wanted to. Though, only you will be able to see it.
Carried on Dynamis
@@mazazon A considerable portion of the playerbase plays on console, can't forget that.
18:12
Imagine playing MSQ durning rollout and see which character will die, judged by the quality of their model.
At then there's all the ARR characters who you assume are immortal cause they use player-shared clothes and faces and then whoops- there they go
a lot of npcs (like, most of them, especially the generic nobodies) use character creator generated faces, so they'll most likely get updated with the player models
Yoshi-P is a Primal and as long as we gorge him on prayer and aether, he and 14 will never die and I'm definitely not Tempered why do you ask?
The infidels will be purged from the land as he delivers us to salvation.
Again, totally not tempered
Square Enix headquarters = Tower of Babil
@@sleepythemis That dungeon would have hit real different if Anima were throwing the Tower of Babil at us like the Nier Raid
Yoshi-P and Soken are the Primals of Vision and Sound respectively. Kinda like Hydaelyn and Zodiark, except the work with each other. We never stood a chance. Glory Be...to our Lords.
Primals except the crystals are meth
Everytime woolie talks about 14 I can see it in his eyes. He's gonna give in. One day.
Didn't he actually try playing FF14 but he spoiled the ending for the event and got mob by Twitter.
I can see him playing Monk, Red Mage, or Gunbreaker.
MNK because fighting games, RDM/GNB for style.
Woolie does have a history of taking a long time to come around on certain genres of games. I remember 8 years ago in the Perfect Dark Brawl he admitted to pat that he was so unfamiliar with FPS that he didn't know where the term Noob Tube came from.
It was only last year he started playing FPS games like COD and Halo.
I think he'll get into it eventually, but not for a while
@@XoftheTITANS He looked ahead and openly discussed data mined information on parts of the Nier event that wasn't publicly available. Not only is that a big no-no in polite MMO society, but also gives Square the legal grounds to indefinitely ban Minh's account for breaking the terms of service.
So it wasn't "just" spoiling the ending, we were trying to protect Minh from Woolie's colossal balls up.
Or maybe pso2 new genesis
Woolie learning an entire culture with mmos from pat
"Get into Massive Multiplier Online Role Playing Games" t-shirts coming soon...
It feels like Woolie's begging and pleading for the answer to his question to be "yes" so then he can be assured that one day XIV will die and then Pat'll stop talking about it lmao
man i wish too
I don't understand Woolie's confusion outside of the assumption that he's just literally never paid attention to any other MMO ever. WoW has existed for almost 18 years. Everquest, Runescape, EVE Online, etc. FF14 isn't even close to the oldest one of these by a long shot.
I get Woolie's point about the engine/tech debt eventually reaching a breaking point, but like, that's already happened to XIV. It's how we got A Realm Reborn.
After playing ff14 they are for sure some technical stuff that show their age, compare that to wow where if a world boss gets pulled by 30 people in an MMO the entire zone lags and make gameplay near impossible due to huge amounts of lag. Mind you when they release a new patch a new endgame zone it also includes a world boss so when you want to do the new shiny zone where all the players get funneled to becomes unplayable for minutes at a time when the world boss is being attacked.
Another thing while endwalker for sure had launch issues with huge queues once you got it in the experience was smooth as hell. Compared to wow where launch queues were shorter but once you get in the game it would lag everywhere again making it unplayable unless its like 5 am, or even worse when they have a bottleneck in the leveling experience and it bugs out like in warlords with their player housing so people literally couldn't play their character for the first week
It is kinda wild that they've gone on for 10 years now with so few missed dates or delays. YoshiP must be a s ranked management master if he isn't killing his team while producing quality content on time
I mean according to pat he likes to play Black Mage
The unofficial FFXIV Dev motto is "Rage, rage against the dying of the light"
It comes through.
dang we're on 24 now
@@Lunarice98 fixed
Woolie pining for the timeline where Third Strike still gets new content to this day
Its funny but also sad to hear the fighting game brain struggle with a game being supported and financially successful for so long and planned to be supported for as long again.
The Vietnam Vet looking at his great grandkids using vine
"If God wants me to quit he needs to yeet me himself"
-Yoshida
the shadows changes was also due to yoshi-p: he was on the moon and thought the shadows there were awful, and brought that up to the team
Also the reason why houses cant have glamour dressers in 14 is because other people can enter your house and apparently if someone else uses your glamour dresser, it would crash the server lmao
Cant they make it to where non FC members can't interact with it. They might have change the name of the furniture like name it the "Glamour Closet" or something
@@RebornDust I think it's more that anyone other than the pc causes the crash haha
Regardless of who they are.
MMOs are wild like that, yeah. Apparently Everquest is still getting new expansions and got another level cap increase back in December. Ultima Online's also still chugging along. And I think Square Enix was thinking about shutting down FF11 but Yoshida stepped in and stopped them from doing that so that people could still enjoy going back to FF11 if they wanted to (and presumably also because FF11 costs basically nothing to run and still generates a decent chunk of cash from subscriptions).
FF11 has never been in danger of being shut down. It still has something like 100,000 active subscribers even on bad months, so that's a few million dollars a month in take.
@@Longlius I do remember when they finished the storyline of FF11 they were planning on bringing down the servers and releasing an offline version after a couple years of the finale being out, and that was a while ago so I suspect that Yoshida did actually step in on that.
my favorite is how STO is still getting so many updates and graphical overhauls but people only seem to complain about not getting free T6 & legendary ships.
Ragnarok Online still out there, even despite various mobile remakes
Think about it Woolie, FFXIV is, to date, one of the longest running live service games out there, THIS is why they all run around chasing that money.
YES! Another episode of Woolie versus MMOs.
All anyone has to say is Maple Story lol. That game will never EVER die. MMOs are just an entirely different beast.
Another thing to add about the console versions - the licenses are 'shared' across the entire platform. So if you owned the PS3 version, you also owned the PS4 version when that became available and if you own the PS4 version, you have a license for the PS5 version. So when the PS4 version gets deprecated, if you don't want to move to PC, you just literally have to buy a PS5 and you can keep playing.
(Also the Mac version still exists, they just started cutting support for older versions of OS X)
As an outsider to MMO's who learns about FFXIV through the podcasts, I gotta give it to Yoshi-P and the team. It seems like a dream project that's been going strong for several years and will keep going strong for the forseeable future. With barely any corporate meddling might I add.
The fans are happy and don't seem the toxic type (compared to some online focused games), the developers are passionate and don't seem to suffer from burnout, sales are high, updates and communication is constant and reliable. FFXIV might be the one online/live service games I know in my life that has everything going for it, and that's a damn admirable achievement amongst the game industry in this day and age. I may never get into MMO's, but I'll be satisfied with knowing a game like FFXIV exists.
I can say as someone immersed in the community that there's definitely a "toxic positivity" sort of vibe all throughout player circles but still not nearly as bad as pretty much any other game I've played in my 30-something years.
Yoshi P has likened his ideal dev/player relationship as that of a government. This shows in how open and communicative they are with us, and in the fact that they do go out of their way to enforce their ToS in regards to toxicity. The end result is a playerbase who all behave like adults. IMO, this game proves that toxicity is a solvable problem in online games, its just gotta come from the top.
@@sleepythemis Yeah, maybe I was overselling it. I've only been watching the game from the sidelines, so I have very little experience with the community itself.
I’m about 18 hours in but having fun with it. I was like you - I had no interest in FF14 because it was live service and I just prefer games that will still work just the same in 10, 20, 30 years. But this game is just, built different, y’know? It genuinely feels like something made with a lot of passion, not just as an MMO but also a mainline Final Fantasy title. I’m really excited for when I reach the later content eventually, but it’s good to know that it will still be there by the time I do.
Woolie. Comic books.
When do you think DC is going to get tired of making Batman, and want to move onto the next thing?
I mean, they frequently do, and then after they get bored of that things go back to normal until they get bored again, shake things up again, Batman is now Dick Greyson, now he's back to Bruce, now he's the Flash, now who knows!?
But there's always "Batman", you see?
Sometimes it's Bruce Wayne (classic) flavor, sometimes it's 'Pralines and Dick' flavor, but it's always "Batman".
Often times, there's several Batmans (Batmen?) running concurrently.
They will never tire of making it until it stops making money.
Runescape's a good example of this. Game's been running since the stone age, it gets engine upgrades and changes to the way the game plays but it is still the same game.
There is a lot of people that would disagree with "the same game" bit.
Reminder that Jagex, simultaneously, support the running of both New and Old-School Runescape. All costs, server, patches, etc; Simply BUILT. DIFFERENT.
Maplestory 1 outlived Maplestory 2.
Maplestory 2 had to compete with Maplestory 1 and it just couldn't. Maplestory 2 lasted 2015-2017, with Maplestory 1 2003-present. It has been out for almost 20 years and is still going and doesn't seem to be going anywhere soon. The Korean version only just got the 64-bit client with the global version getting it this summer
This is an interesting thing that I've noticed with a few franchises. Idk about Maplestory specifically, but I imagine the sequel failed mostly due to a relative lack of content. Maplestory had 12 years to build on itself, and no sequel can compete with that at release. Its no surprise from an outside perspective.
@@johnromero6315 That's a pretty common point of contention between fans in fighting games, where the previous games has had multiple revisions to add on top of a game, while the sequel starts from scratch and tends to offer less at launch. I don't play RTS games, but it SEEMS to be a simillar situation with Total Warhammer, with TW2 having lots of DLC and content that TW3 in comparison may not seem appealing in comparison.
@@leithaziz2716 Total Warhammer is not a really good example of this because these sequels are essentially "stand alone expansions" and they can be merged together to be just one game.
speaking of other old korean mmos ragnarok online has had 4 failed sequels and people would rather still play old ro 1
its so old that damage values are causing integer overflow so they had to mask the 64 million damage cap with fake "99999999 " values
@@TheGraveyarder True but the reason why RO sequels keep failing is not simply just because RO1 has more content.
The A.I. is really cool. FF14 being an MMO is why I've been hesitant on playing it. I only want the story so if they're gonna make it where I don't have play with people to xp. it I will jump in when that happens.
To be fair, even though you have to queue with people for dungeons before Shadowbringers, most of what you have to do is communicated so well and chances are the people you're running with are doing roulettes and have already done the dungeon and know what to do anyway, so in practice you rarely have to actually communicate with the people you're playing with. Unless you're screwing up majorly and get yelled at, but honestly just casually going through MSQ not many dungeons are "hard". Just read your tooltips, learn your combos and don't stand in orange and you'll be fine.
The way it works, when you solo queue for story stuff, you might as well be playing with bots. There's 0 interaction if you don't want to.
I always ask people what they'd do if a spider crawled up their urethra though
Yoshida will blow up the building with his loyal ninja dev team before he allows Squenix to ruin XIV like they did everything else.
"FF14 will gain bot support so you can play it as a single player RPG" lets fucking GOOOOOOO
Did pat not tell the redemption story that was ARR to woolie?
Yoshida literally and I mean literally took SE out of the fire.
Those FFXI updates are literally every month, btw. Not sure "few and far between" is accurate.
Much like yakuza I got into ff14 cause of these guys and I can see why it’s so popular
Pat was the real OG for introducing Yakuza to the Best Friends. I remember them making fun of how Pat was one of 5 fans in North America of the Yakuza Like a Dragon Series.
@@MLGHazrad for a crazy goblin Pat has real good taste
I wish the DBD devs had the same level of commitment to squashing spaghetti code.
Dude MMOs are fucking invincible. NCSoft tried their damned hardest to kill City of Heroes and it resurrected itself from the grave better than ever.
MMOs and specifically FF14 may be built different by always struggling with the ever progressing state of technology and engine issues in order to keep updating so peoples keep playing and all.
(Out of left field i know but) Skyrim, however.. is built different in that essentially the same game will keep being re-released for everything ever and the community scene keeps it alive while fighting to keep mods up to date with the new versions they release using the same engine that has existed for 10 years
most bethesda RPGs are like that. you still have a relatively active modding community for FO4, NV, oblivion & morrowind.
FO3 is largely the outlier because TTW, a mod that combines FO3 & NV into one game effectively made vanilla FO3 obsolete.
After avengers and balan wonderland sticking with a broken engine slapchopped together getting updates every month or so is better than trying something new right now.
"It pays for everything SE makes... and it runs on BS."
LMAO. What a gem.
Dude that trust system is gonna be awesome
Guild Wars 2's expansions cost the equivalent of the character slots they grant to a free account.
2:35 Given that FF11 is still being played, there will be no next game, certainly for Yoshida.
15:56 of all of the archaic BS that I've heard about ffxiv, this is probably THE most amateur thing I've ever heard. I didn't know that the damage from 1.0 went that deep.
I remember how the grand company system had you do dungeons with an AI-controlled party.
Trust has completely replaced it, but there are still listed Grand Company ranks that have been inaccessible for 5+ years.
Are there any plans to expand it?
Damn. The clip cuts right as Pat talked about the timeline.
Legends never die.
6:02 Team fortress 2 is jealous
Look.... I think woolie wants to play guild wars 2, but something is holding him back.
Wait, so... YAKUZE APPROACHING? I support this.
Weird spot to end the conversation but oh well
I sorta think having main characters look a generation ahead is just good information for the player
My only experience with MMOs was me seeing two guys in DC Universe Online ERP in general chat for 30 minutes, so if FF14 going for a decade keeps these kinds of people off the streets so they aren't a threat to society then that's a net positive
It keeps them in the alleyways of Ul'dah and literally everywhere you look on a Sunday evening in Limsa
@@InternetShis catboys and bunnygirls were a mistake (unless I like the game then they are good shut up I'm not a hypocrite)
@@InternetShis only Sunday?
Friend of mine who's a guy, plays as a girl and erps as one with other people in FF14 to get easy in-game currency.
Hilariously sociopathic.
@@bahskintimulholde6191 nah I respect that, never stop the grind. If you're good at something never do it for free. It's the guys who do it for pleasure that scare me
It's crazy how much a solid foundation can keep a game alive. Yoshi P spear heading 2.0 has kept FF14 afloat for a decade now and no matter how bad WoW gets it has such a solid foundation that it's still better then 99% of MMOs even at it's worst. MMOs die left right and center but the good ones just keep chugging along.
I'll never not love how the FFXI devs had to buy used PS2 devkits in order to keep supporting the games, because they were the only things the game tools worked on
Everquest is still running.
The difference as to why Final fantasy 14 online is going to last for decades and decades, is because of not just a very dedicated fandom, but also the fact that no game can replace it, and as long as they continue content and a roadmap which they will, it will last forever, even when other new final fantasy games and remakes are out.
Final Fantasy 14 online is going to be in a stagnant amount popularity, just like other franchises like Minecraft, League of Legends,Gta V(until 6),Csgo etc. Not only do these other franchises have super dedicated fandoms, but also sense these franchises don't have sequels, they can never be replaceable this continuing there popularity. This is something majority of multiplayer games and fighting games cannot reach most of the time so they go do in popularity, and Project L will likely be the one to push the door open, which is good but sad at the same time.
what episode is this from? the twitch vods arent archived sadly
late to the party on this but 155.
I just started today with the free trial to check. Wish me luck...
youll know if you like it in either 10 minutes or 2 weeks. good luck bro
With the advent of the concept of DevOps in 09, making and creating and supporting this kind of stuff has become much easier. Not "easy", especially at this level of development, but much easier. Automation of code coverage, Continuous Integration, Continuous Deployment. All of it takes the amount of effort needed to just keep up to date with the changes in the system down several notches. Will FF 14 go on forever? No probably not, Square will probably mismanage it. Technologically, it could.
How is Pat "mind goblin" boiven, the reasonable one in this conversation?
Woolie your understanding of corporations seems to be completely backwards. Creatives are the ones pushing for new things because that's what matters to them. Corps are only concerning with generating steady, and if possible ever increasing profit margins. Which historically has always been easiest doing the same thing over and over forever.
Comics: let's just make batman remixes for 80+ years
MMOs: let's just have expansions and slight updates to the same game forever as long as people are buying subs or micros.
Movies: let's remake the same 3 marvel films over and over again because we perfected the formula for money.
Sports: football hasn't changed for over a 100 years, people still go to see every single game in a season and obsess over the details.
Probably the best example that is just sitting right under your nose. "Hey are we going to make Street fighter 3? Maybe later, let's just rerelease SF2 a dozen times with slight changes first until profits start to dip.
MMOs are *the* digital ship of fucking Theseus.
I want Woolie to be forced to look at EverQuest & more importantly RuneScape so it can drive him mad. Lmao
Don't get MMO addiction kids.
At what point will the meme win and we get Woolie VS FFXIV
Soon...
Japanese devs a different bred. "I will die before I change my project!" is a mood I wish American devs had.
In Japan, there's more of an expectation that when you get a job, you're going to stay at that company for a long time (or at least, that's the ideal). I can't blame anyone for not wanting to bust their ass for an employer that's very likely to lay them off next quarter to make the line go up. The games industry in particular has some horrific turnover and preys on young people passionate about game dev, before burning them out and replacing them with more young people fresh out of college.
name one game where that attitude would have improved anything and i will name 10 where it would have sunk entire studios.
i always find i funny how people romanticize "the artistic vision" but completely forget how george lucas or vince mcmahon ran their "babies" into the ground.
I agree with woolie, these games aren't finite. There is a point where the playerbase drops enough for it to be financially unviable to develop the initial Vs develop a new one
I can only handle Pat talking about 14 for so long lol
Chad MMOs
Woolie once again regretting engaging Pat to talk about anything to do with and mmo
And now part of the same FF14 staff is creating FF16, which is looking great!
Woolie vs MONEY
FF14 will never die lol. Ever
Woolie, go watch the Noclip Documentary about FF14 1.0, it's actually incredible. Worth the watch even for those who don't play FF14.
Graphics doesnt matter. Still cant get over how monotonous the questlines are in this game. Its like watching a anime that is 70% filler.
take whatever pat says about ff14 with a grain of salt and whatever about other MMOs with a very large grain of salt
I GET why people like (or want to like) the game, its just that its NOT an MMO. Its a live service FF game with (A LOT!) of extra doodads and nobs for people who want to pretend theres an actual world of things going. At least until the illusion is broken completely when you try to do anything as a group and find out most of it is done BY YOURSELF.
I mean, by that definition, there are almost no MMOs. Most MMOs have content that can be done solo.
How do you define mmo?
@@coldfrost3 Massively MULTIPLAYER. as in "Theres people and I can talk to them and we co op together for most or all of the game."
@@lordxmugen I mean you can but why would you if you want that pain go play 11?
@@ProvostZarakov Until he realises that trusts (the a.i system that the boys are talking about) are a system that started in ff11 and you can go to cap on them alone. So even ff11 "isn't an mmo" anymore. XD
Woolie has such a novel concept of product production.
Woolie. Video games take *MONEY* to *MAKE.* You have to pay *HUNDREDS,* sometimes even *THOUSANDS* of people, for *MONTHS* of development time. Everyone from the project leads on down has a paycheck that needs to be fulfilled. Then, after the game's development reaches completion, you now need to pay for that game to be rated by the ESRB (or equivalent), then, you need to pay for getting that game to your customers. Best Buy, Gamestop, any store that needs to shelve a physical copy of the game needs a physcial copy of the game to sell and that means paying for the production of disks, and cases, and then paying for the shipping of these things to stores, and many digital marketplaces charge for hosting the digital copy of your game as well.
Producing *ONE* video game takes a *LOT* of money. Once you've *SOLD* that *ONE* game you made, you don't get anymore money, unless you produce DLC, or, another game. The hope is that in selling a game that cost 1million dollars to make, to 8million people, you'll be able to make MORE than that money back.
But. What if instead of selling *ONE* game, *ONCE,* you instead sell *ACCESS* to a game. Yes, rather than selling *one* copy of Street Fighter 2: Turbo *once* per person, you sell *access* to Street Fighter 2: Turbo for a monthly fee? So, instead of *ONE* instance of 60 dollars (60.00 total), you get *12* instances of *15* dollars (180.00 total).
An MMO makes that dream a reality. No longer do you need to pay for the costly and lengthly process of game development. No longer do you need to wait to see your sales come in. No longer do you need to worry about wether the game will even sell or not -- you have a *RELIABLE* source of *BASE* income month by month from *EVERYONE* you sold the game to.
To put it another way, let's say Final Fantasy VI sold 3 million copies. 3 million people can now play Final Fantasy VI. Whenever they want, for however they want, with full access to every feature of the game.
Final Fantasy 14, if sold to those same 3 million people, will require of them to pay an additional fee, every month, to maintain access to the video game they purchased.
*TLDR:* Why would I want to sell you a new game when I can have you paying for the game you bought 10 years ago, for forever?