Castle Super Beast Clips: Devil May Cry 5 - Spoilercast
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 เม.ย. 2019
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Hope you enjoy these moments from the show! For those wondering about full episodes, unfortunately, posting them in full to TH-cam would hurt not only the audio podcast itself but also this channel directly in a not insignificant way. For the full podcast, please play or download it, or watch our full video archives on twitch. - เกม
![เจอประจำ ตอน พักเที่ยง [EP.32]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jvqk6uJoVks/mqdefault.jpg)
Lowkey MVP of the whole incident was the Redgrave Telephone Company. Those guys made phone lines that can outlast a demonic invasion.
Redgrave Telephones vs Nokia.
Wait did I just spoiler the next Wrestlemania's main event?
Now, I need to know who it was that made those phone lines work literally everywhere. Even if they aren't in the forefront, they seem like they deserve some credit, since cell phones weren't a thing.
@@luvhair255 How do you think Sparda got all the money for his giant manor in the center of town?
@1Way Road
Probably funded by the Speedwagon Foundation.
@@randominternetsurfersurfin7595 no you just spoiled the next death battle
"Trish, when I'm depressed I eat pizza."
- "Dante, you eat pizza all the time."
[thousand yard stare as Dante crams three slices into his mouth at once]
Hello darkness my old friend
woohoo pizza party...
Injects an organic strawberry sunday into his bloodstream to feel a small sugar high
“When I’m depressed I crave power”
“But Vergil, you’re constantly craving more power”
“...”
Mmh whatcha say
Mmh that you only meant well?
The fight between chaotic pizza and lawful weeabo is a age old conflict
You're missing something important Woolie, considering you read the prequel novel. Before Nero came back with the breakers, V actually spent that whole month defending Redgrave from Qlipoth alone.
as his demonic energy diminished over the course of a month
@《 Platinum Breaker 》 Does that mean Nero singlehandedly depopulated the blitz who should have been in Redgrave while missing an arm? Because that would lend a lot to their unstoppable octoroon demon children theory.
@@Famygdala How the fuck Nero killed all blitzes without able to do double DT busters.
@《 Platinum Breaker 》 He had no charge shot. No Devil Breaker.
@《 Platinum Breaker 》 Nico uses demon parts as reference not a material. She analyzed the stuff that Blitz uses to create electricity and built her own version of it into Overture. So Nero only needed to kill one Blitz in the Forest near Fortuna.
I find it hilarious that Vergil held so much salt in his heart towards Dante that splitting himself in two with the freaking Yamato can't get rid of it for either half.
A bit of that and probably because that the only way for him to survive. Remember his condition when he take Nero arm. He need to do that, he need to split himself just to keep alive. If there is other way he probably wouldn't do that.
He split himself to survive mundus's corruption.
Legallyallowedtotouchchildren You should check out Visions of V. He totally does it because he can't hold that L
@@malikoniousjoe If he didn't split himself he would have died.
@@malikoniousjoe That manga came out a day before the fucking game was released lmao good it wasn't after so they would have to retcon it.
"I wanna see what happens in the DMC universe when nothing's going on"
DMC Anime: *EXISTS*
Totally, its pretty much how normal days are
I love how absolutely wiped Dante is by Trish and Lady in the anime.
David Crespo ...pardon my ignorance, but “wiped”?
Grabnok The Destroyer my bad meant to say whipped
Funimation doesn't have all the episodes 😭
There May be no pizza in hell but there also isn’t any debt in hell.
Forget about having to flush those toilets!
I like to imagine that since they have Yamato everytime they get hungry they just pop a portal near convinience store, grab something to eat, drink some coffee outside and then go back to hell.
Yeah but again no pizza... truly an empty victory.
@@luvhair255 And no hellish birthday party either.
Woolie you are super wrong about there not being a moment where Dante goes from being depressed to whacky almost instantly.
Because there is. The end of DMC 3.
He is literally crying and shouts "oh, I love this, I'm absolutely crazy about it"
To me that always screamed "I kill demons in whacky ways to cope"
Are...are we just style-beasting to hide the trauma..?
*Oh god it's setting in*
Another example, but much more subtle:
Take a closer look at Dante's face after he beats Urizen. He has a look of exhaustion, and sort of hollowness on his face. The very second he hears Nero coming up to him he frowns, pushes down everything he’s feeling, and quite literally slaps a smile across his face and then says something irreverent about 'you're late, i'm just finishing up'. He looks like he's struggling hold up the facade by the barely contained irritation he expresses whenever Nero opens his mouth to ask him more about Vergil.
@@ItsJustAJVJ I guess it's kinda like how I pop wake up supers... I I mean it's for the *style* points
i think hes mainly killing demons cuz its the only thing that makes him kinda feel human.
as dante thinks of himself as a freak
That what lady does she just kill demons just for her depression
You know, the real tragedy of the ending of DMC5 is that Dante never returned Lady's guns
He took both and he never gave them back
Well. Nico did a new better than the old one in like an hour. I think she is fine.
@@itsallfunky4591 Yeah but I think that was out of Lady's wallet, so that's money lost.
Well, that's like taking the rebellion away from dante, that gun had sentimental value.
Although it is possible that he left it with Lady cannonically before the fight.
I guess trish won't be getting sparda back either since dante ate the sword.
Plus...
...
...V outright states ("protected and loved") his whole motive was survival, as in the assault on Manor left Vergil completely left supernaturally powerless and mortally vulnerable, a son of a demon knight, and that on a young child would cause them to see power as the avoidance of that state again. Urizen reflects an extremely version of this same instinct, but he clearly can't remember why, because the half that feeling was born in is not there.
@Sara Galindo
Exactly!
Vergil's entire rivalry with Dante is not rooted in an inferiority complex like some fans may think. It's based on a pathological, trauma-based need to protect himself from ever being traumatized again. Dante - his true equal - is the only thing standing in his way from fulfilling this desperate need.
I don't think Vergil consciously realizes this about himself, though. I'd argue that it's hidden from his awareness, buried deep in the pit of his heart. He most likely convinced himself that he needs power because of his demonic pride and nothing else. He convinced himself that he only cares about being THE son of Sparda, and so any form of weakness in him is too shameful and intolerable.
It's important to note that Vergil didn't become obsessively fixated on defeating Dante until he was finally free of Mundus' control.
Think about it: why wouldn't he?
If Dante hadn't refused to give the amulet to Vergil; Vergil wouldn't have been forced to fight him for it.
And what happened to him after he lost that fight? (a loss he blamed on his own humanity and on Dante): His worst nightmare! He had to re-live his trauma by being tortured and enslaved to the very demon who caused his childhood trauma in the first place!
If Vergil wasn't deeply wounded after his fight with Dante - a fight he felt Dante forced on him - he would be able to kill Mundus (the pre-DMC5 novel pretty much says so).
And who ended up defeating Vergil AGAIN and finishing off Mundus once and for all? Dante!
No wonder his traumatized, dying, corrupted mind could only think about defeating Dante at that point. It's not like he was in any mental or physical condition to think rationally about it or about anything else.
Once Vergil had the chance and the time to reflect on his life choices - by living as V - he didn't even bother to point his sword at Dante. Dante was actually the one who started the fight! And Vergil didn't look eager about it at all. He chooses to back out of the fight and went to reflect more on his life. That's something Vergil would NEVER have done in DMC3 or at the beginning of DMC5.
Sure, he ended up fighting Dante anyway; but everything about his chill and reflective demeanor prove he was no longer obsessively fixated on defeating Dante, he just wants to settle things between them and be over with it. He just wanted to find out if accepting his humanity will really make him stronger. For the first time in his life, he was honestly willing to consider his humanity as a possible source of strength!
But it still wasn't a wise decision! Because by seeking that "proof" in that fight; Vergil would have lost his own life or Dante's life. A cost too high for both of them. The winner of that fight would have been more traumatized than ever before.
That's where Nero steps in to finally beat some sense into both Vergil and Dante.
I can't believe V was the friends we made along the way.......
I mean..
I don’t think Vergil has ever *personally* killed anyone, but he has shown gross negligence for human lives on a tremendous scale. You don’t just open two massive portals to Hell and not expect crazy collateral damage.
Not to mention he stabbed the shit out of Arkham and Dante both, no doubt expecting them to both die especially in Arkham’s case. Vergil himself may not be a murderer on the scale of thousands, but he definitely never gave a shit about anyone’s life except his own until the end of 5.
I just dropped a nuke in New York I didn't kill anybody c'mon.
DMC 3 for Vergil was literally, "fuck everything and everybody, Dante get up here so I can kill you." NOthing else, he was literal had no regard for what he was doing or who he might hurt. He just wants to take Dante's side of Sparda's power.
@@GR_Stryder also, when Vergil "killed" Arkham, he said: "now that the final door is open, i have no use for you", i think that's a very evil thing to say. Even if Arkham was not dead, it still counts as a kill.
@@venomfuryx3250 I like Vergil, don't get me wrong, but he was definitely a bad person who has a lot to answer for.
VenomFuryX To be fair, Arkham is the most unambiguously evil character in the game. It could have just as easily been Dante who did the deed, like with Sanctus in 4
I wonder if this is the beginning of Credoposting.
"Go make those superdemon babies, Nero. Pull your Devil Trigger inside my sister's womb."
What have you unleashed?
SEX STREAK
EXSEED
WOMB BUSTER
CHARGE SHOT
EXPLODER
Hold up going to /v/ to credo post real quick.
"Nero. Do not attempt to contact Nico. I have destroyed her Van with my angelic spear."
FUCK, I DIDN'T KNOW I WANTED THIS
Griffon says it himself in V's first mission, "You and I like to exist, so get rid of those demons quick."
V doesn't want to die. Griffon doesn't want to die either, but as long as he exists, Vergil coninues to suffer, so... yeah. But mainly, V doesn't want to die. Capcom made sure that was clear as day.
Yet Pat and Woolie will still over analyze and misinterpret it like they always do
@@crazygamer4260 It's mostly Woolie that truly overanalyzes everything. Really speaks volumes when Pat of all people has to reign him in sometimes.
Even if urizen didn't plant the tree himself. He actively prevented Dante and the others from cutting it down and saving lives. The damage would have been far less if he didn't get in the way, and other demons actively tried to hunt for blood for him.
Hard to blame Virgil for Urisen.
If you yourself cut out all the sides of your brain that said "don't be an asshole" you'd likely kill a few people.
The sons of Sparda have way more power than you so the "few people" becomes "a shit ton of people"
I don't know. Dante doesn't have an axe nor a bunch of nidhogg hatchlings. They went straight for a man isolating himself from the world with a dimension seperating blade. He just wanted to sit in his chair.
We don’t actually see him directly commanding any of his underlings tho! It could simply be a “well we gotta curry favor with the strong guy!” sense of initiative on their part
Also Dante, Nero, and V don’t seem that concerned with cutting down the tree, just going after Urizen for their own totally personal reasons, so it’s not like he was directly in their way of the tree beyond getting the Yamato to close the rift, I guess.
@@christianhansen2569 Also, other demons are actively trying to usurp his shit and want to get the fruit first.
Listen, I’m not saying Vergil did nothing wrong...
But dante is troubled child
"I didn't shoot them, the gun did!"
1 he has an excuse. 2 he wasn’t even in. 3 was his fault. 4 wasn’t his fault, but he did have premarital sex. And 5 was completely his fault.
you can some up dmc as "daaaad why'd you give vergil the cool sword"
At least he didnt bust out his trusty sniper rifle.
Pat: Dante and Vergil's face are the same in this game
Crazy Talk strikes again
They actually are. Beat Bloody Palace with Dante and slick back hair Dante looks just like Vergil
@《 Platinum Breaker 》 they aren't though.
They literally have different faces. They used different people to scan the faces. Look at imdb or the game's credits.
@@CVVK2501 Like....no he totally doesn't at all. Vergil has a huge fuckin chin and totally different cheeks yo. Them being identical twins has basically been retconned.
CVVK2501 Look up videos I where people have done face model swaps. They are completely different.
I took the "somebody's gotta look after your old man" to mean that dante wanted to make sure nothing bad happened to vergil since the last time he saw him fall into hell resulted in nelo angelo.
Also to make sure he ain't a prick.
I really feel like Woolie is intentionally trying super hard to ignore the scene of Dante sitting in the dark in his office doing NOTHING because it goes against his narrative.
fighting shirtless in the rain intensifies
But its one scene. What's more annoying is people trying to push this depressed doomer Dante narrative. As if he's some nonfunctional mope whenever he's not on camera playing through a DMC story. Its ridiculous, tumblr-tier headcanon.
@@laughingocelot2097 People don't have to be "some nonfunctional mope" when they're depressed, it shows itself in many ways. Dante clearly deals with a lot of trauma, from losing his family to then finding out Vergil is alive but "evil" and losing Vergil again, he death of Nell Goldstein, etc there is so much, and his change of moods from 3 to 1, to 2 and from the first half to the second half of 4 are pretty clear and reflect the things that are happening around him and in his life. Not diagnosing Dante with depressions, but it isn't as farfetched as you're making it seem
It’s a good he didn’t learn what sex was.
Just saying, he probably would go through a few bad relationships.
Nero has the benefit of being around his foster sister wife his whole life. And uh, Vergil nut and bolted. Probably leaving that mother with a lot of hurt.
@@lucaspinotti3283It explains a lot in a reasonable arc for DMC1/2/anime Dante, and we have plenty of evidence that Dante is at his happiest when fighting powerful foes. Look at how he barely talks at the start of DMC4 until he fights Nero. He actively stays out of the fight in DMC4 after letting Nero take the Yamato until Nero gets absorbed and he’s forced to step in. Dante wants to have fun, but most things just don’t seem to satisfy him. Look at how he and Vergil grin madly when he fights him in 5. And how fatalistic he is about killing Urizen who he thinks is a lost Vergil.
Pat at last showing his true colors as a full Griffi- I mean Vergil apologist.
Vergist
Really, the way that Nero and Dante treat Vergil is like an addict. If you replace every instance of the word "power" with "meth" it works just fine. And Yamato is just the crack pipe. Vergil didnt intentionally kill anyone, his methhead alter ego Urizen did. And Vergil is fine, but if hes left to his own devices maybe he'll relapse so Dantes there to keep him straight edge
*Scratching his neck* Come on, baby. I just need a little more power! Just a drop! Come on, Dante! Don't do me like that! I need that POWER! I'll SUCK YO' DT!
@@JoseRS1186
"I'll suck your DT!"
Great. Now I know what those nobodies are and what they were doing.
Also dont let just anybody suck you DT that's how you get SDTs man.
Dennis Newman what’re you gonna do with all that meth, huh?
Dude was literally hooked up to blood from the qliphoth like a dude injecting himself with drugs.
Until he got the fruit which gave him an everlasting high until dante knocked it outta him.
"Ahh Brother, you cut off your own son's arm for more meth and you still ran out"
I think these guys underselling how good the story and characterization of 3 was
I think they just mentally wrote it off as dumb video game bullshit because otherwise I dunno how you can sell that it had a worse story than 5. 5 clearly has too much left vague about its plot and it shoves Lady and Trish in there with nothing to do while Neros motivation is in a totally offscreen Kyrie and Credo who died in the last game without anyone really giving a shit. Meanwhile we actually see Lady/Arkham and Dante/Vergil interacting throughout the game.
Though they could also still just be in the honeymoon phase of their feelings towards the game.
@@Tamacat388 they are not gonna come out with the negative towards this game in a long time, hell pat is still blind as shit when it cames to how undercooked REmake 2 is
Totally, I still think 3 has a legitimately great story and is the best in this series
@@7U57HTJRYGHG How is REmake 2 undercooked?
@@christianhansen2569 3 definitely has the best story. Best in the series tho...not so much
The one thing with the human/demon hybrids being stronger as they get more and more human, is that they get more and more vulnerable. Dante and Vergil, being half and half, shrug off stabbings and getting sliced in half on the daily. In DM4, Nero gets stabbed and he is on the brink of death. At the beginning of DMC5, he's screaming on the floor and passes out from getting his arm ripped off. So while Nero (and potential future Sons of Sparda) have a greater potential for power, they become almost as vulnerable as humans when not in their DT.
I think you're right, as even when neronisnt in his st in the fight against vergil, he gets stabbed, but then stabs yamato back at vergil.
I think nurture is also a factor because when dante was neros age he was already pretty roughed up.
They really like to bring up the "Sayain genetics" deal. They're conviently forgetting that the only quarter-Sayain we ever meet never transforms, and in Dragonball Online, sayains have bred with humans and watered down that Sayain genetics so much that, while they're stronger than other humans, they explicitly need a wish from a magic dragon to get to transform.
Walking glass cannons
I disagree with the part that they got more characterization than in the prior games.
Trish? Sure. But Lady absolutly not. What you see here is only the aftermath of what happened in DMC3.
lady telling nero that he would never get over killing his father while she looks off is enough for me. confirms that shes still fucked up about it and does the wahoo act just as good as dante to hide trauma.
dricsi07 I think woolie mixed up lady and Trish again, and even them Trish had some character in DMC1
I assumed they were talking about games where they didn't have major central story roles, mainly just DMC4.
@@shooterb0y23 That was obvious since 3. You know where she broke down and started crying after she unloaded a full round into him?
@@dricsi07 That's true, but from 4 and the anime, you were never sure if she eventually moved on. 5 makes it very clear that she hasn't.
37:31 There actually is a moment when Dante takes the magazine off his face when Morrison is talking and he just stares down all sad like. He was probably expecting "rent's due, deadbeat, pay up" as the good news and "sorry, no new jobs" as the bad news.
I'm sick of this stupid headcanon I'm seeing everyone post 🤣 sorry buddy, just watched the scene and Dante looks pretty chill. He in no way goes from a normal state to something resembling sad. His demeanor is relatively unchanged.
I think we need to stop forcing our insecurities onto Dante's character. He's not depressed all the time, he is indescribably bored. He's saved the world, he's practically invincible. He honestly does not give a damn about mortal contrivances such as "rent" and "utilities".
Learn to separate the video game format from the narrative details. Do you also think that every video game doesn't use the bathroom because its not explicitly shown?
Woolie: "What are the concequences for Vergil letting the Qlipoth grow and killing an entire city?"
Pat: "It's as simple as he is good now and he is a changed man"
*Moments later*
Pat: "Dante is depressed because when Morrison goes to him he is sitting alone on a dark office not doing anything. He only goes 'wohoo pizza' when he is killing shit"
Woolie: "Well, DMC is not a series where that kind of depth is needed"
I love these shitlords, but sometimes they make me go *OOF*
It’s part of their charm
@_ scüp and sometimes it malfunctions, wait scratch that, it mostly malfunctions.
Lmao ikr
About that "empty city" bit with Teminnigru, there were demons appearing in large droves the night it rose(even before it appeared proper), and from the fluff text Dante has at the bar/strip club, it suggests that a lot of the citizens in the surrounding area were killed by the reaper demons.
P.S. The implication that this was going on before Dante even got out of the shower makes the bit where Dante turns down the following phone call VERY dark.
"Sorry, not opened for business yet," may have been the last words someone heard in their last moments. Their last Hope crushed into a horrific despair because Dante was being a selfish asshole.
Damn, that is fantastic point good sir or ma'am. Vergil has directly and indirectly caused a massive loss of human life multiple times.
Oh maybe they thought it was a pizza place...mm
@@TheOneAboveACoupleOfPeople Yamato as well.
Now I'm wondering why bother giving out your business's number when it's not open yet?
@@redgrave4492
Dante was working jobs before he got the office, so it's possible some potential clients got it when asking some of his associates like Morrison.
To me the moment v fuse with urizen, vergil got hit with the Point of View Gun
When vergils "alpha and omega" title card comes up, I love to imagine him having all the memories pour into him and him mentally screaming HOOOOLLLLY SHHIIIIIIIIT
@@chainsaw1016 "okay look.
I MAY have gone a little too far in some places..."
Dac85 In all due fairness...he didn’t kill a baby (while still in the womb) with a semi-automatic.
Chain Saw that look of genuine confusion on his face still kills me.
Jordan we can now add Virgil to the list of people, along with people who are drunk and Steve urkel, who can genuinely think “did I do that?????”
Here's how I take Vergil's responsibility, just because it simplifies things:
V is Vergil. Literally. When Vergil stabbed himself, his consciousness went to V. V's "oh shit" face is Vergil's immediate regret over what he's done, and all of V's actions are Vergil fighting not only to stay alive, but fix his shitstorm he started.
Why does everyone blow off Vergil's guiltiness at the end? Because he's clearly the addict who's chosen to go to rehab. As others have said, he's a crackhead, and power is his pipe. He can't be trusted to be left alone for now, but he also deserves a chance to stick to his program and kick his habit.
Power is Vergil's drug, it satisfies his demonic urge for supremacy and his human desire to feel safe and never feel pain again
How is Lady better in this game then in DMC3 cuz she says that Nero shouldn't kill his dad? Wasn't her crying after killing Arkham enough to show that she didn't like it? Like, understand what they meant with Kyrie but Lady? What? She was already a great character.
She was completely wasted in this game. They pissed on her
@@punishedfist Kinky
@@Tamacat388 that was cut from PS4 and Xbox versions but apparently will be on the switch
@@punishedfist
Godammit.
@@punishedfist its fine the DLC will take on expanding lady's and trish's character, well at least we hope it will
Stoic hero and wild villain? I’m super surprised Woolie didn’t say Jotaro and DIO.
Jotaro didn't really go wild until after he got that Joseph blood. I forget if it's Pat or Woolie who once said that they're favorite version of Dio is at the end of Phantom Blood, where he's just a head, when he's at his most calm.
I feel like looking at redemption as a thing that a person 'deserves' instead of something a person 'choses' is the problem tbh.
Vergil may not "deserve" redemption,but he clearly wants to redeem himself. Dante was gonna kill him but Nero giving him the chance and him willing to take it is why they dont wanna end him now. It's clear that he's not gonna go crazy over power anymore,so what should they do at that point? Team up to kill him anyway?
Besides,Redemption was a huge goal for V,does V not deserve the chance after everything he did?
The way I see it, whether or not a person wants redemption is only a valid point in fiction. Woolie is coming at this from a real-world perspective, in that if you do/cause an action then you automatically deserve the consequences regardless of whether or not you're sorry for it. People get redeemed all the time in fictional stories...sometimes a little TOO MUCH, but in reality a person's feelings doesn't change the gravity of what they've done. Being repentant doesn't mean you get to walk away scott free.
Then comes in Pat who argues that Vergil didn't TECHNICALLY kill anyone. He then compares Vergil to Dragonball Z characters, which is funny to me because there definitely aint no wish granting dragonballs to bring all those innocent people back in Devil May Cry.
@@chainsaw1016 killing him won't bring them back to life,and ultimately letting a man like him who clearly wants to make amends more than anything now is the better option than executing him and gaining nothing.
Besides,Vergil could end cancer and his victims still wouldn't forgive him cause forgiveness is a choice more than anything.
Yes what Vergil did was drastic,but he's also willing to make drastic improvements. Which is what redemption is about,personal salvation,a choice only he could make.
Besides,Dante and Nero already kicked his ass.
@@chainsaw1016 Redemption and repentance isn't just about feeling sorry for what you've done, though. It's also about making amends for your crimes. Condemning someone to death, when they have actually turned themselves around and could do good in the future, is just plain stupidity. You kill a criminal when they are still a danger to society and have no interest in redemption, in order to prevent them from performing future crimes. While criminals should still face consequences for their actions, killing them when they have no interest in performing more crimes is just a waste.
I like how in this and the LP that they just assume anyone showing any sort of religious beliefs that they're from Fortuna. Giant demon tree pops up anywhere there are going to be people who assume that it's something from god and are going to pray, they don't know what that shit is.
They don't even have to assume it's from their god. They might be praying to send the demon plant away.
@@FrozenOver0 I really love these guys but sometimes they just say the dumbest shit
The Fortuna religion is the only one that's ever been shown in the games, right? I can see where someone would get the idea that any religious reference would be to it.
@@Ketsuekisan There's dialogue, which is in the trailer for 4, that emphasizes the people of Fortuna are an isolated cult. All the imagery is "Catholic" which would imply a large following and an assumption of widespread influence, but the actual plot dump states they are a smaller sect and not the defacto religion of the DMC setting.
Of course, it's also been a decade since anyone saw those trailers and people aren't expected to remember every detail of a YahooPartyTime game. It also doesn't help that DMCV clearly wanted to make reference to all the previous games, so why wouldn't they make the religious radio lady an implied Fortuna zealot?
also in the prequel novel that they both claim to have read
Vergil may have never killed anyone directly, but it's obvious Vergil has no problem with killing anyone in his way for power(Arkham). The summoning of Temen ni gru totally killed people in 3. It's not shown directly because of limitations of games back then, but you do see blood stains in the Love Planet. Even if the qliphoth tree was naturally occurring, Urizen stood in the way of Dante and the gang from cutting down the tree in the beginning which caused more causalities. Vergil may have not directly killed anyone, but his action have caused many deaths
But then Dante's responsible for all the people who got fucked by the Fortuna incident because he didn't go and immediately solve the problem like he could've.
Not that I'm saying Vergil gives a fuck about the sanctity of life, because lmfao at that entire idea, but yeah...
Not only that, do you remember those tentacles that appear sometimes in DMC5 that give you green orbs? Those tentacles were shown killing people at the beggining of the game.
And you know who summons those tentacles, as if he were able to control them, in the middle of his fight with Sin DT Dante? Urizen!
They say it's a tree that grows in the underworld, which would make it naturally occurring but I dont think it can get into the human world without a big ass portal, and the only thing in the series that does that is the yamato. Urizen opened the portal 100%
TheIronMoose But then how did Mundus get the fruit (which can only grow from HUMAN blood) before Sparda made the Yamato?
I love this discussion I think it’s fascinating how incredibly ambiguous it all is
@@christianhansen2569 I was just reading the case files in DMC 5. There wasn't a barrier between the human and demon back before Sparda defeated Mundus and sealed the two worlds off. Nero says in game Yamato did this, and when we see the portal it looks exactly like a Yamato portal.
Nero still didn't get stabbed by Yamato when he gained his DT, he got stabbed by a bunch of Angelo lances and a Gladius.
Fact checking will ruin this podcast
Its crazy how many people think Nero got stabbed by the Yamato
Funny how Pat would discard Woolz theory as reading into it too much, considering he's a psych major and Virgil's arc is literally Jungian integration of the subconscious and mastering of one's shadow.
That's because Woolie goes off on longwinded tangents over every little thing. Watch his Nier: Automata playthrough for the ultimate version of it. Boy gets lost in his own train of thought and completely forgets his initial point.
one of the aspect of Psych is that things are deeper than it seems and things are also simpler than it seems. Woolie is digging so deep that he's hit the earth's core.
@@Caidezes Woolz not knowing how to frame his idea in a few words isn't the same thing as him being wrong.
@@Zach0451 Then it's a good thing I didn't say he was wrong about something, huh? Not sure where that came from.
@@Caidezes Nah, you only implied it
I would say that the two times that Dante got into Nero's face in 5 definitely played more into the "Dante's more serious than you'd think" narrative- he drops the act and gets tough with him because hey, it's no time to fool around.
Regarding whether or not Urizen counts as Vergil, we must remember that he explicitly states he does not remember the childhood he had with Dante. I think that's indication enough to say that, when split, the demon side of Vergil had his own motivations and plans that the human side of Vergil would not allow due to the huge amount at the loss of life. I don't think this means Vergil is averse to killing Innocents though, V stole money from a man after murdering him with Griffon, I just don't think Urizen's actions regarding the Qliphoth is what Vergil himself would do.
I don't exactly remember but I think he just beat his ass badly not kill him (besides Griffon kinda can't kill him)
@@itsallfunky4591 Yeah no you are correct. He didn't kill that man. He just beat him up badly and stole money while using Griffon.
Tfw getting mugged by a little chicken talking mad shit at you while Kylo Ren reads a shitty haiku at your expense
I mean Urizen still remembered Dante and has the line about “you never lost anything” (how would you know if you can’t remember?) so it’s possible “have no memory of this place” is just another way Urizen is casting off/downplaying his former humanity
I think it's more that Urizen has feelings about Dante but without any of the memories or experiences to give them context.
Dante and Vergil's face models are explicitly different, Pat. There's even a mod that gives Dante's face to Vergil.
Pat is correct though in saying that they look similar ENOUGH that when Dante slicks back his hair in his Bloody Palace taunt, he does look like Vergil.
@@ExaltedUriel They have similar silhouettes, skin, and hair color. Other than that, they're very different looking, considering Vergil's face model is Russian, and Dante's is British, but those are just surface level.
Though, sadly, the animations don't always work. Vergil with Dante's face leads to really tight lipped movement and puckered mouth animations. Dante with Vergil's face ends up looking high/sleepy/kinda unsettling.
@@rampant1apart This as well, during the pre-fight cutscene with Dante when it shows him smiling in profile view, it looks like he has a noticeable underbite / Beavis chin.
Of course it was Yamato. Vergil gets the sword, stabs himself, Urizen then HAS YAMATO and uses it to open a portal so the tree can come into the human world. Vergil uses Yamato to close it in the ending ffs. If it wasn't Yamato that opened it, why wouldn't anybody mention it? Nero even says "Yamato did this". What more ya want?
There ya go. You solved it. An hour and 13 minutes for nothing .
Wait what?
@@leowagnerr hey man, wassup?
Not saying you're wrong. But why would he need the tree need to come into the human world?
Is it for the blood?
@@rebound1266 yeah, the tree sends out those spiky tendrils which kill people and drain their blood. If the tree is in the demon world it can't do that, so needs to come here where humans are
Why is woolie so adamant on everything being connected to fortuna and worship of the saviour even though it’s already established that Fortuna itself is a closed off community that *rarely* lets outsiders in, meaning that the order of the sword is most likely confined just to Fortuna. I doubt anyone in Redgrave even knows about the saviour or the order. I get that woolie was a church kid and DMC4 was some power fantasy trip for him about sticking it to the church but it’s..... just not that deep
The literal only connection is Nero and Nico
The fact Ebony & Ivory have proper spelling finally makes me think Nell took a look at what her kid wrote, and was like "That's adorable but stupid."
Nell's son fixed the spelling years later for Dante because the "Wark" always bothered him, if that's what you're wondering.
Saying that Kyrie and Nero left the church after fortuna is 100% plausible, I can totally see that. Saying that Nero is straight up atheist is like saying that Bayonetta doesn't believe in magic. They spend the game fighting *demons* through the entire thing with giant magic flowers and flying shadows and they go "Yeah, but god doesn't make sense tho".
This is the same issue you run into when making an atheist dnd character lol
Well there are no angels in this universe.....soooo. And Nero NEVER believed in the church's beliefs, nor did he follow most of their ways, he was only there to protect humans and protect kyrie. SHE was the believer, not him
Gtl Ridge You are hearing a sermon about God in church and Jesus descends from heaven and shoots your priest in the face. First thought is “Damn, I guess the church was wrong.” Not “Damn, I guess he doesn’t exist.”
@@clockworkphysicist THE ANCIENT TEXTS!
I really hope they really do release that "ladies night" dlc and a Vergil dlc and just call the game with the dlc "Special edition" instead of us having to wait years to buy the game again
OH BOY DO I YHAVE NEWS FOR YOU.
not great ones, though.
Woolie, you can still believe in a religion even of you don't like the temporal institutions or the current hierarchy of that religion. Nero makes his peace with "God" the savior, whatever, at the end of 4.
It literally happens all the time in any institution, secular or religious, that become corrupt but the principles are still sound.
Exactly. You can still believe in the good things Jesus taught while denouncing how corrupt current church leadership is, for a real world example that has occurred multiple times.
THIS
Jackpot
I think at the most Nero and Kyrie are agnostic since in the end of the very canonical novelization of DMC4 nero's okay with god after they killed Sanctus
the only good god is a dead god, and Saviour is a damn good god
honestly hearing those 2 arguing about nero's and kyrie's stances on faith gave me cancer
@@7U57HTJRYGHG yeah just let them be agnostic or unknown what they stand on.
@@22srs22 i think woolie let personal feelings get in the way of the discussion since they spent a good chunk of the podcast lowkeying bashing against religious folks
Maybe thats something that is gonna happen everytime woolie visits his family
But their "god" has been proved, they personally know god's son and now have confirmation that Nero is his grandson. What they also know is that it was a dumb religion since Sparda was just a dude and the followers were crazy.
“Buster and ragtime are busted.” - Oh are they Pat?
Pat and Woolie you guy's are wrong about Dante. He did not stay with Vergil because he didn't trust him. He stayed behind because he has regret's for the last time he left him in hell and Mundus tortured him. Vergil also was lonely so now he is happy he gets to be with his brother.
ALSO Woolie i don't know what crack you are smoking but you need to STOP devil may cry 3 has a amazing story search it on youtube someone will explain the depth to ya.
I personally feel like it was for both reason for Dante wanting to stay with Vergil... but yeah.
THANK YOU finally. Yeesh, some of this spoilercast was rrrroughhhh. Neither were really respecting the other's theory, while from an outsider's perspective I could see where both were coming from.
"Someone will explain it to ya" = "you didnt like the thing i like so you must be dumb"
TheAkatsukiKnightz wow, stay salty bruh
they're both so wrong about everything about DMC that it blows me away
It seems that Woolie is coming at this from a critical/art perspective and Pat is coming at it from a pragmatic/business/meta perspective. Both are valid-but kind of irreconcilable-lenses that you need to clearly state before arguing as they have different axioms.
Kinda fitting since they're talking about a series where the greatest rivalry comes from two valid but irreconcilable lenses.
>DMC characters were not deep before five
So god damn wrong
It's God of War all over again.
@@JaXonSlade "Kratos is such a bad hero". That's because he's the villain. Making him Joel from Last of Us isn't shakespeare.
@@overkillery I'd say Kratos was the hero in the first GoW. He clearly felt super guilty for what he had done, even if his motivation was less about redeeming himself and more about getting revenge and hopefully getting rid of the nightly consequences of his guilt. Ultimately, he was still putting a stop to a deranged god causing mass death and destruction. 2 was definitely him just being a dick, though, basically being the deranged god he killed in the first game.
Dante and Vergil don't have the same face in 5, unless you're trying to tell me Adam Cowie and Maxim Nazarov are the same guy.
I mean, think about it, have you ever seen them in the same place at the same time?
One of them is batman I swear.
"What do you think about Vergil's DT looking like, the Savior?" Answered by Nico's theory in this game, that demons change based on their desires and wants.
This is not a "Griffith did nothing wrong" thing, Vergil did not release the Qlipoth. If it needed to be released by Yamato, it was Urizen that did so. What is Urizen? A demon more bereft of humanity than other demons, because he was specifically severed from that, directly and literally. He's got less personality, less motivation, less anything than other major demons in the series that we see/fight. Sparda was a demon that "awoke to justice" and that implies he is in some way humane. Demons like Berial and Mundus have personality in a way that Urizen doesn't. Urizen is Vergil's fixation, not Vergil. He's an obsession for power, and he got it, Vergil didn't. Vergil ultimately benefits from that, but only because his humanity, V, is desperate to survive, desperate to *protect* his own life and spent a lot of his short life protecting the lives of people in the city because as another comment here says, V was protecting the city from the Qlipoth alone for a while. Vergil doesn't just benefit from his fixation's success, he benefits from his humanity's survival and more importantly growth. Pat's actually right here, Dante wants to keep an eye on Vergil because he's his brother and doesn't want to risk Vergil doing dumb shit like he did after DMC3. But this time if Vergil was on his own and did dumb shit again it wouldn't just be that Dante loses him, Nero would lose the father he only just realized he has this time too.
There is absolutely a redemption story taking place in Devil May Cry 5, but it's not centered around Vergil, Urizen, or V it's about the family, as a whole. We see it through the lens of Vergil's struggle because it's still active and he's still lashing out because of it but Dante still has his own subdued trauma over losing his family. Nero's struggle in this context doesn't start until he realizes who Vergil is and then resolves to protect not just his father, but his newfound family from itself.
@WastingAway the argument falls apart even more with the existence of 3. Vergil has done this type of scheme of his own accord before. Had he not have been on death's door he may have done it himself from the get go
In 3, the tower idea was orchestrated by Arkham, and Vergil had to be convinced to come on board for Sparda's power. In the history videos in 5 it's stated that Arkham manipulated him and Vergil ultimately helped kill him because he was a huge threat to everything, and in 3 itself you can constantly see Vergil getting pissed off as Arkham goes on his tirades about demons and evil. It seems like he was misled about what would happen, but continued with the plan after the fact in order to recover Sparda.
Also, Urizen isn't half of Vergil. He has Vergil's obsession with power and his pride, but nothing much else. V is the one with all of Vergil's memories and he shares his motivations. One of the main themes of the game is the idea of people having a unique "qualia", the collection of experiences thoughts and feelings subjective to their perspective that makes them who they are. V has Vergil's "qualia", Urizen does not. In this way V is far more Vergil than Urizen could ever be.
Saying it doesn't work because of 3 means you didn't pay attention to either game. Likewise saying Urizen is 50% Vergil ignores all of V's own growth all throughout the game compared to Urizen having no growth (because he's so little of anything that he can't grow) and literally all of the dialogue. Urizen doesn't even seem to have thoughts of anything other than Vergil's obsession for power and not wanting to lose against Dante. That's not 50% of anything, that's a singular obsessive fixation. Woolie says it himself in this clip, Urizen is literally nothing, and that literal nothing gets its ass kicked. The moment Urizen post-defeat merges back with V with all of his personal growth, Urizen is functionally dead. Dante doesn't get to think about this in the moment it happens, but his attitude clearly changes by the time he fights Griffon, Shadow, and Phantom, and gets to the top of the Qlipoth to fight Vergil for real. He asks for Yamato without a fight first. Their fight at the end of the game is the result of the lasting shared trauma that was never dealt with, especially on Vergil's end.
Dante goes with Vergil in order to make sure history doesn't repeat, but the history he doesn't want repeating is losing his brother. In the same vein he doesn't want Nero to lose a parent the way he lost both of his. He's protecting his entire family in going with Vergil just as Nero protected his entire family by stopping Dante and Vergil from killing each other. The game's story is about healing the entire family. Vergil is restored and incidentally gains the object of his obsession with all the personal growth that allows him to self-reflect in a way he never allowed himself to before in addition to a son he didn't know he had. With the way Vergil idolized his father Sparda in his younger years, it's significant that he accepts he himself is a father too. He leaves his book with Nero specifically to leave some connection with him and to allow Nero a way to get to know something about his father. Nero (mostly) regains a parent, and realizes exactly what he gained in meeting Dante at all. Dante gets his estranged brother back with all the time in the world for them to finally, really bond. The Mission Select menu shenanigans after you beat the game even tease how Vergil has come around and finally grown back into his own family.
@@Archdaemos Your in depth explanation and slight headcanon(that part referring to Dante going to hell to avoid losing his brother again) are both really thought out and a great way to look at the ending and story as a whole...except that's not the part I'm arguing.
Like it or not, Vergil showed he was capable of doing heinous acts without regard to other people's well-being to serve his own agenda. Whether it was Vergil or Urizen, Vergil himself showed in 3 he had plenty of motivation *insert voice clip here* to do what had happened in 5 BY DOING LITERALLY THE SAME THING. And reviewing your op I know disagree EVEN MORE. This IS the Griffith Did Nothing Wrong argument because you're even doing the "well, it was Femto who raped Casca, Not Griffith even though that's totally something he'd probably do considering what happened when she was nursing his wounds at camp after his rescue" defense. While we're at it, I can also compare him to Majin Vegeta, the guy is literally having a midlife crisis and decides to let his mind get invaded to finally get an edge up on his rival and causes countless deaths (some directly in cold blood) as a result.
Look, dude. No way around it, the guy is a degenerate but no one's saying there aren't good things about him, but you're justifying things that can't be. And take this from someone whose favorite fighting game character is Jin Kazama, the guy who literally sent the world spiraling into chaos. He's still a good guy with redeeming traits, but what he did to try to get what he wanted was horrible, even if it had done what he had hoped that would still have applied. Disregarding such a thing as not the character's fault leads me to believe it is you who did not understand the games.
Griffith was never split into two pieces, one his fixation with conquering the world and the other everything human about him. Griffith just always *is* who he is. Cause and fault are both laid at his feet because he made a conscious decision as he was. Vergil did too, to split himself up. We have far less basis to say Vergil knew how things would turn out with Urizen and the Qlipoth than we do for my reading of Dante's motives. The cause is Vergil making that decision and as much responsibility as can be taken for splitting himself up to live longer like that should be taken, but the fault lies with Urizen who is now beaten and for all intents and purposes dead. Legally speaking he'd still be totally culpable, you're right, especially because society doesn't really take into account this sort of fantasy bullshit. But unless we get a little more later about how the Qlipoth was part of Vergil's own plan pre-split, Vergil as a whole person is not (yet) to blame, and 50% culpable doesn't stand up to any kind of critical thought about the things he was split into. My reading of Dante's motivations is every bit as much headcanon currently as saying Vergil, and not Urizen, is responsible for the Qlipoth tearing apart the city.
Revan's comment above mine also explains what you're missing in 3 specifically. Vergil was manipulated into the whole thing and was pretty clearly against many of Arkham's personal antics. In 3 the cause is entirely Arkham, and the fault while not entirely Arkham's leans heavily onto him.
"Ladies of Devil May Cry spinoff game"
Darn, I want this now. DMC Charlie's Angels would be pretty cool.
Pathfinder Savant Trish, Lady, and Lucia working under Morrison. That's the good shit.
REAL BATTLE ON FILM Kyrie getting snagged
I think the Qliphoth has its own consciousness, kind of? In Nico's notes for Dante, it mentions how the tree was pumping demon blood into him to heal him. The exact words are “for some reason, the Qliphoth was pumping him full of demonic power the whole time.” Urizen would have no reason to heal Dante, so it makes me wonder if the tree just kinda... does its own thing.
The Order of the Sword believed in Sparda and not the Savior statue, so wouldn't meeting his son just strengthen Kyrie's "faith"? Abaddon the church but the faith could survive. Oh God, imagine if Nero didn't want Kyrie around Dante because every time she saw him after learning who he is she want "PRAISE SPARDAH!" and embarrass him.
Yeah, I'd be more surprised if Kyrie gave up her religion instead of seeing the Fortuna events for what they were: a bunch of crazy assholes hijacking a religion to become immortal demons.
Kyrie is a strong independent woman.
Shes deeply caring and will give life and limb AND religion to save someone.
Shes a wonderful influence on Nero, much like Eva to Sparda I expect.
Woolie is so in love with his own vision of Virgil and Dante that he refuses and actually gets angry at any other possible meaning.
He likes dmc4, give him a little time to accept reality
Agreed with Pat, the first thing I thought at the end of the game was "this is Dragon Ball Super, Dante is Goku, Vergil is Vegeta and Nero is Future Trunks. Dante and Vergil count wins against each other forgetting about the crimes against humanity, and now Nero is having daddy issues".
The Qliphoth is in the demon world. Urizen unleashed it on Redgrave by opening a portal with yamato beneath the city, the same the portal they go through at the end to kill the tree roots. It naturally occurs IN THE UNDERWORLD. Not in our world.
doesnt the qbert need human blood to thrive? Thats a pretty stupid tree to grow where it cant get food
It got into the human world for Mundus to eat the fruit, and that was before Yamato
@@TheComedicPCGamer Well, it made a lot more sense because before Sparda woke up to justice, the tree could just casually grow into the human world with no problem
It's the ten tails from Naruto, and urizen is kaguya
Wait a second.
Since Sparda is worshiped by Fortuna, and Nero is a blood relative of Sparda and with Kyrie being a Fortuna follower, wouldn't she be somewhat eager to be down to make a bunch of super powered demonic protectors of humanity? I mean I know she's probably not a huge follower of Fortuna's teachings anymore but I like to think some part of her would come into question lol
The main thing about the qliphoth being a natural occurance is the only reason dante wasn't able to just hop down into hell and sever the roots no biggie was because urizen and everything else in the way was there stopping him. the secret ending is literally "oh yeah urizen was defeated and everyone lived happily ever after" as if urizen was the only thing in the way of it.
Pat what about the temenn-word? A giant tower emerged from the bottom of the earth, destroying buildings and shit? Demons with giant scythes flying around? Did he summon it in the abandoned warehouse district?
No it's fine, nobody lived in that entire massive city that stretched towards the horizon it's fine.
Ethan N they built it as a joke.
Pat DOES acknowledge that its obvious his actions killed people, but the game itself is weird in that it never shows him directly kill people or have him acknowledge that his actions resulted in peoples deaths. There's no moment where you see him pull the trigger of the gun that killed that guy.
A good example would be when we SEE Agnus deliberately open the gate in 4 and see the demons start emerge from it and kill people. We can't argue then that he didn't do things that killed people because we SEE him do them. It's dumb but the game's storytelling is like that.
@@UltimateAnimeGamer the problem is, urizen links himself to the qliphoth, as shown by him being in control of the pool of blood around his throne and his tentacles being intertwined with it so he has to rip himself free to stand up and how vergil can summon a throne out of it before his fight with dante and nero. maybe the qliphoth is natural, but urizen is controlling it and can sense when the fruit is ripe through the tree, something dante couldn't do even in SDT, and SDT beats the shit out of urizen in terms of power.
that means all the people being killed by the qliphoth at the start IS urizen's fault, even if he didn't personally kill them. but the thing is, it's not VERGIL'S FAULT, urizen is part of him, but only a piece. do urizen's crimes and V's heroics counterbalance?
@@Yal_Rathol true. Another thing to consider is that V is Vergils humanity, which includes his memories, personality, interests, training, and everything that makes Vergil a person. It's shown that Urizen does not have most of the memories that made Vergil into what he was, but V does. This in turn makes Urizen just an embodiement of physical/magical strength and lust for that same thing. He's not really a proper being; just a shell with one desire and one personality trait: arrogance. In that case, I cant day that Vergil is directly at fault for Urizen's actions.
However, did he know that his other half would go this far? It seems as though V didn't expect how much of his old restraint he was losing by separating himself. How much did he thibk his plan through when hes at the cusp of death?
This clips are getting crazy, *Let's Rock*
Foolishness Dante... Pizza is nothing in comparison with the Japanese art of Sushi.
That honestly makes me want a spin off game where Vergil and Dante go to DMC's Japan equivalent to explore the origins of the Yamato. Imagine Dante and Vergil fighting yokai and Vergil weebing the fuck out; It can be his redemption arc.
Cooking Vergil OR Chef May Cry
@@austin9568AuraMasterDX Devil May Cook.
@@TheProfessor529 P-p-p-p-perfect!
Judgment cut them into perfectly sized portions.
Dante does wants to celebrate Patty's birthday, but he doesn't want to go to the party because he doesn't want to be surrounded by all of her friends cause he feels like a freak, and would rather celebrate her birthday with just her.
Okay if you wanna assume that Urizan didn't plant the tree, he stopped Dante and the crew from talking it down. So you can at least pin all the damage after that moment on him, cause that's more than just sitting in a chair.
Devil May Cry 3 actually had the best writing in the series and it worked so well with the gameplay. It's pretty much what a video game story should be.
48:50 But Nero wasn't stabbed with Yamato; he was stabbed by a Gladius. Yamato was still broken and floating in blue light when Nero got his DT.
V seemed almost debating with himself if he should die to atone for his sins despite his will to survive. I say this because he was ready to let Dante kill Urizen if needed, and that would have been the end of V too. It's only when Trish tells him that he himself needs to see this through that he finally makes up his mind about merging back with Urizen. He even quotes Trish's exact words later on: "I have a duty to see this through".
Where I'm at on the Vergil morality argument is that I don't even know if Vergil knew his demon half would do that. Like I think Vergil's plan was:
Step 1: Rip off Nero's arm to get back the Yamato
Step 2: Split myself into my human and demon halves because my mortal flesh is crumbling away
Step 3: ???
Step 4: profit
There is a look of surprise on V's face when he splits apart. It is my head canon that any part of the consciousness that was meaningfully Vergil all ended up in V, and that look was "Wait, I'm in the human part?" In attempting to make himself stronger, he actually removed all of his strength.
The Fortuna belief system is based around Sparda, and Kyrie now has living proof 3 times over that he existed. She's dating the grandson of her religion's central figure, who has personally met the two sons of Sparda, who can tell her what Sparda's wife had to say about him. Assuming she didn't already write off the events of Fortuna as a bunch of crazy assholes perverting the beliefs of the faith and Sparda's example, she could very easily have her faith restored by Sparda's still living family.
It'd be like if someone lost their faith because a weird cult said Jesus told them to sacrifice the lives of innocents to Satan, but then the person met Jesus's son who told them the cult was full of shit and Jesus never said to do any of that.
Actually that sounds fuckin sick hype
I will say one thing about Kyrie and ‘waiting for marriage’ - there’s zero guarantee that the order of the sword promotes sexual chastity.
An almost identical question came up in Warhammer 40,000 - Sisters of Battle are literally nuns in very obvious Catholic church expy called the Imperial Cult. Because there’s so much 40k material, the issue was eventually addressed - Sisters do *not* take a vow of celibacy or chastity. However, usually their strict regimen of duties and worship don’t give them the time or inclination to pursue romance, love or one-night stands. But there’s no rule there to keep that from happening, so it can and does happen.
I think the Order is probably the same. No strict chastity laws, but a pressure to focus on religious stuff. I don’t know why Pat keeps calling Kyrie ‘basically a nun’ because other than being a worship leader, she’s kinda a normal member of the church. They don’t have a cloistered order.
TL;DR - I think Nero definitely knows what sex is.
It never crossed my mind before, but yeah...Urizen totally acts and looks like a Kamen Rider or Power Rangers villain. This game has all the references!
I never knew I needed a picture of Vergil in a pink shirt that says “Badman” on the back
Devil May Cry: Dark Knight Sparda
-a Prequel game showing Sparda's awakening to justice and his revolt against Mundus. it ends with him meeting Eva
Devil May Cry: Order of the Sword
-Like the 358/2 of DMC, introducing other members of the Order of the sword going on demon hunting missions. It shows them going to Mallet island and getting the busted Yamato, and even shows the moment Nero got the Devil Bringer.
Devil May Cry: Vergil, Son of Sparda
-A game detailing Vergil's life from the day he lost his family all the way up to the start of DMC3
I say name the Vergil game DMC: Darkslayer
The Qliphoth tree grows per several millenia i think, and my headcanon is that when Mundus takes advantage and whatnot of the fruit, Sparda who at that time was Mundus' right hand man helped him ripen the fruit. BUT, Sparda saw the what the tree did the cruelty to humans or maybe there are some humans who caused Sparda to woke up to justice.
So yeah i think Vergil/Urizen is kinda responsible for killing the humans even if in this situation indirectly causing them to get succ and die
We see that the Qliphoth produces ONE fruit. Any bets that Mundus rallied his army with some grandiose speech about "power for all who serve me" and at the end he goes "haha tricked y'all this was all for me" and Sparda compares all the suffering their campaign caused and one demon getting all this power basically for doing nothing, and goes "ah, right, fuck you then".
@@namillus9754 yeaah ikr exactly, but i think in the end sparda couldnt kill mundus and then was forced to just seal the underworld and take they key which is the yamato
I kinda liked more the theory of sparda waking to justice was because he met jesus
@@7U57HTJRYGHG uhm.. i think he IS jesus in DMC world
1:05:30 if Dante is Dark Souls and Vergil is Sekiro, does that mean that Hidetaka Miyazaki is Sparda? ☺
I love this
Nero is metal wolf chaos
So, is Nico Armored Core?
V is Bloodborne
Correct
Woolie seems to be missing the point. Pat is saying "Did Vergil do anything wrong?" not "Did Urizen do nothing wrong?" but every time Woolie goes "URIZEN IS BAD THO". Let's be clear, Urizen is a mass murderer whether the Qliphoth would have naturally occurred or not. VERGIL, however, I don't feel is responsible for the actions of Urizen.
Super Pochaco but he is though. Urizen wouldn’t have been birthed without Vergil’s separation. It is indirectly his fault.
@@brian.jrmontoya3227 Indirectly. But does that mean "Vergil killed a million people?"
Super Pochaco Vergil didn’t directly kill 1million people. But he’s still the cause
Einzy-chan can’t really blame the parent for the faults of the child
@@brian.jrmontoya3227 Yeah, she died so Vergil grew up without a mother... not her fault so I agree with that.
did Pat went full Griffith did nothing wrong?
And just like Griffith Vergil totally made tons of mistakes and killed people
@@toxiccorgi2108 Don't forget betraying his loved ones, inadvertently making a tree made from the lives of a whole city rise up, living in said tree, and forcing his closest friend to clean up the whole mess.
"I would never choke out a baby for diamonds, but I will take the diamond"
- Pat circa 2017
Well, I mean, Kratos got his *sort of* redemption, and he also fucked up like Vergil did.
Now I'm not saying Vergil can fix the damage he caused, but maybe he can do something in a future installment that will make him less awful.
@@astern.7425 The big issue here is that Kratos regrets everything he's done and is not only actively working towards being a good / better person, he's also creating goddamn Superman in the form of his son, Atreus. Vergil never shows any remorse for his actions and once he's reformed he immediately goes to fight Dante and ignores the whole "the worlds are collapsing" thing. He'd never work to better himself or to help humanity.
Also Kratos explicitly did NOT get redemption, he still sees himself as a horrible monster for his actions (which, once again, I'm pretty sure Vergil does not) and the game frames it as pretty much the truth.
Vergil (DMC3)
- Wasn't wrong in wanting power (Mundus is still around)
- Was wrong in the way he wanted to get it
- Sees his human side as weakness
Urizen
- Born out of Vergil's flesh with all of his power and became the Demon King in 1 month
- Still wants more
- Doesn't even remember why he needed power, just that he does
V
- Born of Vergil's memories and with so little power he lated 3 months to Vergil's 2 decades
- Actually NEEDS power or else he will die
- Literally forced to be on the other end, needing help of an "Awakened to Justice"
Urizen explores Vergil's blinding want of power
V explores his reasoned need for power
My only gripe is the line "Not to Dante".
It should matter who he loses to.
Meh, I don't think it necessarily specifies that he is fine with losing to anyone else. But an "especially" somewhere in there might have been better
@@Copperhell144 Especially would make it even worse. He shouldn't be okay with losing NOR have any emotional attachment to Dante, good or bad. That's V's side. To Urizen, Dante is nothing more than a test of strength. I think during the fight, he should have said something like "This sword, it shall be mine." or something. No matter how much he has, it will never be enough.
@@catsoup9870 Well, Urizen does mention how Dante is strong despite never having lost anything, so it's not like that line is the only place he is shown to have emotional attachment to Dante. But maybe that whole angle shouldn't have been in there. Or maybe you guessed wrong about him not remembering why he wants power and he does remember most everything (like V does) but acts like he doesn't care. "I have no recollection of this place or those events" as Urizen's equivalent of Dante's "I have no father, I just don't like you".
I love these guys, but this and their synopsis of the persona games have me convinced to never take them seriously when it comes to story and themes in games.
Pretty much. Specially persona.
@[A]ddiction that whole persona discussion was pretty bad. Someone needed to be there to rein them in a bit.
I wonder if we'll have the same happen when catherine full body gets released in the west.
I find it hilarious for some reason to think Dante is depressed, he did have a shit childhood.
Also i find Dante going with Vergil as an excuse to spend time with him, besides keeping in check that he stays a good guy, maybe tell him about what happened in dmc4...
I can believe it. Manic Depression is a thing
I always saw it as pre DMC3 Dante was bored but still woohoo yahoo pizza, he sees Vergil and then locks him in hell and is all like "Shit I am actually alone" and becomes super depressed until he fights demons cause "hey if they can get here Vergil can come back maybe" then at the end of DMC4 Knowing Nero is around he returns to his pre 3 personality where he is bored but Still Pizza boy. Then at the end of 5 he gets his brother AND his Nephew AND gets to fight demons and feels "hey now I'm Happy Woohoo Yahoo Pizza Boy All day long cause I'm not alone"
After everything, with the change of heart from Nero, he doesn't have to embrace his legacy so hard and can find some comfort from his brother, in whatever way they do.
Same with Vergil to an extent.
To be fair V was visibly shocked when his demon side went out of control which means Vergil had no clue it was going to cause this much destruction, I would say Vergil is completely redeemable because all he really does is cause Urizens birth by mistake, I doubt he killed anyone in DMC 3 ( Or well not that we see anyway ) and stops fighting so he could sever the qlipoth roots, Besides that i can see where Woolie is coming from
While I think you raise some good points, I would take issue with the idea that Urizen's birth was a mistake, because of how V tells Nero about how it was created:
"There is no demon named Urizen; just a man who threw away his humanity in an endless pursuit of power."
Vergil knew full well what he was doing when he split himself in half. It wasn't just because his body was dying, it also remains true to the idea he has had since DMC3: his humanity is what makes him weak. Vergil believed that by ridding himself of it entirely, he would finally be able to surpass Dante, and for a while, he was RIGHT.
I would say there were three things that caused Vergil to finally lighten up a bit and have a change of heart. First, the fact that Dante managed to surpass him AGAIN, even after he had given up his humanity, the one thing he always felt was holding him back. Second, V's experiences, and coming to realize just how much he had actually lost in being so driven by the need for power. And finally, Nero, this weird kid who Vergil knew about for around 10 minutes, who is apparently his son, and is only 1/4 demon, actually managed to defeat him in a battle (though Vergil was definitely tired at that point).
Vergil may not be a "killer" per se, but he had no regard for human life until the end of DMC5. We saw what happens when Yamato is used to open up a gate to Hell in DMC4, the same thing Vergil was trying to do in DMC3 before Arkham hijacked his plan. Let's not pretend that Vergil didn't know what was going to happen when he opened the portal to Hell. He just didn't care, because power was all that mattered to him. By the end of DMC5 he's redeemable, but he was still responsible for every innocent life lost in DMC3/5, and he still has a lot, A LOT, to answer for.
You have to keep in mind though, that when he split himself, he didn't know Urizen would do what he did. He split himself in order to fight Dante, but Urizen ignored that and went off to become king instead. From Vergil's perspective this would be incomprehensible, because he didn't think so much of his consciousness and motivation was born out of his humanity, so he didn't know that Urizen wouldn't share his desires. And it's shown that Vergil opposed what Urizen was doing because V, who has Vergil's memories and motivations, tries to stop him. Even to the point where, in the secret ending, he allows Urizen to be killed in the prologue without reforming into Vergil.
As far as why Vergil changes, the points about both V and Nero are basically correct. But as for Dante, it's actually because BOTH of their ideals were proven wrong. Urizen without Vergil's humanity was overcome by Dante who had to seek out more power in order to defeat him. This is why Vergil and Dante's DTs, which came about when Vergil had to embrace his human side and Dante had to embrace his demon side, are "Sin" DTs, because they were born out of a contradiction of their ideals.
Both Vergil and Dante are responsible for countless human deaths. Folks act like Dante's a saint or something. Dude literally stood around and watched while the Savior was slaughtering people in Fortuna. Hell, he was goofing off the entire time in DMC4 instead of solving the problem and saving lives. They're both assholes. Nero's the real hero.
He had to close all the demon gates. Did you forget that?
@@22srs22 The gates he could have dealt with easily much earlier than he did if he actually cared to? Yeah. DMC4 isn't the only time he's disregarded human lives either. Dante goofs off and takes his time 'cause he simply doesn't care enough to. He lives for fighting demons and his brother; saving people will always take a backseat to that.
How? He was making his way back bit by bit taking down the hellgates.
Well he could have taken down the hellgates before the Savior was ever activated, when Nero was going through the levels. We see Dante was in the forest at the same time as him.
Besides, it would make more sense to just fly over to the Savior, beat it, and THEN seal the gates.
@@RevanX77 No, because The Savior wasn't actually attacking people, it was the demons, if he went after the Savior first, they'd just lose some big ass protection.
DMC 6 is going to be about Dante and Vergil running a Pizza Shop in Hell and Dante keeps on eating the Pizza causing Vergil to attack Dante because he needs more profits.
Woolie: "I'm open to the possibility of being wrong."
Pat: "The game literally says the Qliphoth is naturally occurring."
Woolie: "No, shut up, Vergil planted the Qliphoth on purpose."
Okay.
Except its only because of the Yamato that the tree is growing into the human world. This is stated in the game by the characters. They both just forgot but Woolie somewhat remembered that it was somehow Urizens fault.
@@Tamacat388 "Except its only because of the Yamato that the tree is growing into the human world."
The only thing Vergil did with Yamato was to split himself in two. Urizen would have been the one to open the portal for the Qliphoth, meaning Vergil's complete self didn't intentionally bring the Qliphoth through. The question then becomes "is Vergil still responsible for what his desire for power at all costs did when it was knowingly separated from his caring/human side, even though Vergil himself didn't cause any deaths with his own two hands?" I think the answer to that is "yes": Vergil didn't intentionally bring the Qliphoth to the human world, but he did intentionally create the guy who did.
"Vergil didn't intentionally bring the Qliphoth to the human world, but he did intentionally create the guy who did."
Doesn't that make Sparda the one who's ultimately at fault though?
@@RevanX77 Who says the twins weren't an accident?
@@tripodranger7873 You think Sparda wouldn't have thought about "can I get this human pregnant?"
i think you can summarize pretty well the plot of the game and Vergil's inner conflict by saying "Vergil's humanity isn't strong enough to stop Vergil's demonic side from being awful, so he needs the help of his family to do so"
Dante absolutely goes "you need to die" to Vergil, that's why Nero intervened also id say Dante seems very depressed whenever he's in his office
Woolie had to bring up Cagalli.
Still goddamn mad.
wingedswordslayer Never gonna watch it so what happened to her?
If Virgil hadn't used the Yamato to open the underworld then the big evil plant wouldn't have been a problem. Every death caused by it is on him.
We technically dont know if it was vergil or urizen(vergils power boner cancer) who did it.
@@peterwhite6415 It didn't seem like Vergil had opened the portal before he created V and Urizen. So presumably Urizen opened it.
I'm pretty sure Urizen did that, though if you want to use that logic, creating Urizen makes him just as indirectly responsible as opening the portal himself. I think the point is he wasn't directly responsible but he is definitely at fault. The complete Vergil didn't do those horrible things but he did consciously throw away the part of himself that was preventing him from doing them.
Nope. In the prequel novel it explained that the portal to the underworld kept appearing in places like Fortuna and DMC2's island, signaling the coming of Qlipopth. Those openings is how Dante escaped hell in Dmc 2. Perhaps the shards of yamato caused it, but it wasn't Vergil who did it because Yamato was with Nero.
@@alastor8091 No one's saying he isn't, just that the reasoning was wrong. And I will say it's at least easier for me to accept Vergil's character development with the whole Urizen/V setup than I would if he had just had Urizen's role.
I really love how the temen ni gru is probably still standing in the middle of the city, we never saw it dissapear.
We did actually in the epilogue
@@astern.7425 it disappears?
@@xxianxx0 yeah after Nero's credits
@@astern.7425 no you are thinking about the qliphoth, I'm talking about the tower in dmc3
Oh.
Well in the ending scene, Lady and Dante look up in the distance, and Dante says "we should be fine for now" , the spot they're looking at is most likely where the tower was
I doubt Dante and Vergil are stuck in the demon world forever, portals kind of open randomly. I think that's how Dante escaped hell before. So they would probably hang out in hell until a portal opens.
Or until they're done sandbagging Mundus around hell.
@@Famygdala
"I HAVE RETUR-OH GOD NO!!!"
Yeah, weird for them to assume that Dante and Vergil are stuck there forever.
29:10 i saw it as dante making up for how last time in 3 vergil went to demon world he lost to mundus and got possessed, him saying looking after nero's old man was his way of saying he won't let him go alone like last time. Becasuse dante still feels responsible for when he murdered him as nelo. Also don't forget they have yamato and 5 takes place after 2 so im pretty sure dante and vergil can leave whenever they want
Well vergil does say he'll be back for the book
The tree naturally occurs... IN THE UNDERWORLD PAAT!!!
Sparda sealing the underworld makes the qliphoth not have access to human blood.
Well, it has been said that Sparda's seals weakened over the millennia. I don't think it's a coincidence that he settled in Redgrave, the place where the tree sprouts, close to when it was due to come back. He probably knew the next time it grew it could break his seal.
Woolie's "shut up and listen to me" thing can get annoying sometimes.
Woolie "bad things don't happen to good people" madden can't cope with the idea of urizen profiting off of a natural disaster, while not being the cause of said disaster.
V and Urizen are schrodinger Vergil, as in they are Vergil and they're not Vergil at the same time.
Pat got Nero's motivation for stopping the fight a bit incorrect.
Nero was mad that the Brothers, who was the only people who could stop the tree at that point, decided "fck everything, we need to fight"
That's part of it yeah but not exactly the main reason
When correcting someone's understanding of something, it's usually good to make sure you yourself aren't also incorrect.
@@pdragon619 we are just tumbling in circles goddamn
Much like how Credo died in DMC4 Nero was powerless to stop him from dying, so in that Nero wanted to depressingly stop the two bros from killing each other that's why he's mad he wants to prevent more people in his life (despite Vergil literally never being there for him aside from being V) to Die.
Would calling vergil a dead beat dad really count if he didn't know Nero existed and when he found nero he still didn't know he was his son
Plus he was dead/mind controlled for most of Nero's life.
@@Corrector1 that too
That's what really bothers me about the whole: "haha, Vergil is a dead beat dad/shitty dad". It's stupid.
Correction. In the novel Dante says to urizen he wants to finish quick since he has a birthday to attend to. (patty)
I was soooo looking forward to this podcast and it didn't disappoint in the slightest, listening to you guys talk DMC lore/theories is jist as fun as watching you guys play DMC.