Choosing Greens or Blacks - House of The Dragon
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2024
- Greens or Blacks - House of The Dragon
So I’m sure by now you’ve probably made your decision on who you support based on what you watched in Season 1 of House of The Dragon. Either you support The Greens with Aegon as King or you support The Blacks with Rhaenyra as Queen…But I’m gonna give you a quick argument for what I believe are the best reasons to support The Greens, and then I’ll give you a quick argument for wht I believe are the best reasons to support The Blacks, and at the end, I’ll tell you who’s obviously the right choice. And you can tell me in the comments what you think.
#gameofthrones #houseofthedragon #georgerrmartin #asoiaf - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Having to make a choice as a viewer is somewhat stupid, when the whole idea of the story is to show that both sides were flawed and had legitimate reasons to fight.
That doesn't seem to be the choice in the stupid show
They've got rhaenira set up as the damn massiah who only wants to rule to save westeros from the white walkers blah blah blah
Took away all her pettiness and layers of stupidity and cruelty
The war between the blacks and greens is far bigger than Rhaenyra vs Aegon. It’s why the blacks forces kept fighting after Rhaenyras death. It’s why Cregan came down south and the hour of the wolf happened. It’s why Aegon was poisoned and his daughter was shoved out a window. It’s why Viserys was rescued from Essos and installed on the throne.
This is just a fun gimmick to let fans participate. To show them this is what the dance was like. Most houses had to pick a side, only special houses were aloud to sit out this war.
If you lived in Westeros during the dance and either Vhagar or Caraxes were circling your fields and city, you’d 100% bend the knee and align yourself with whoever came flying over first.
@@joshuaadams6565 good assessment lol I’ve always supported team black since George seemed to write with that bias in mind. That being said, it’s much more nuanced than just picking a side lol. Like you said, if Vhagar popped up at my castle, id probably bend the knee, or die lol.
@@impostor6982 I think the showrunners are doing this to make her fall more shocking? We'll have to wait how the showrunner will handle her reinforcing male primogeniture for everyone but herself (and her hilarious "bastard tax")
I’m taking Shireen Baratheon’s view and not taking a side. “When people started declaring for one or the other, their fight divided the kingdom into two.” It’s crazy how black and white the fandom still sees this whole debacle and ASOIAF in general
People are still stuck in having to have clear protagonist/antagonist story-telling, when many book lovers have moved far beyond those kinds of restrictions. I'm tired of the same old story being depicted, which is why I love George's work.
I don't know if any of the text from Planetos is ever going to be depicted to a T. Which really bums me out sometimes. I wanted the mess, the no real clear choice to root for. I want to feel conflicted. I even want to feel horrified and grossed out by both sides. I want to feel like I'm being swept away in the chaos, just like any civil war.
Anyway, Team Small Folk. The real victims here and the only right answer if you had to choose.
Neutrality in the face of injustice is not brave or noble, its cowardly
@@LuziFearon Lmao. What injustice? Calm down, bro. It's just a show.
Screaming injustice within a monarchic system that is already foundationally bullshit is peak cringe.
@@LuziFearon The books are far less cut and dry. But there are some things they have to depict and next season will have you questioning everything. I promise you that.
@LuziFearon recognising multiple perspectives at once isn't cowardly, it's wise, and the only true way to peace.
I have to disagree with your Laenor point. They couldn't tell anyone he wasn't dead. That would defeat the whole purpose of faking his death. It was done so he could escape that life. Princess Rhaenys aka The Queen who Should've Been might have ok with him running off to do his own thing, but with how Corlys is about honor and Velaryon legacy, I don't think he would've been ok with it. I liked Leanor. I'm glad he got to go live his best sailor/pirate life. I'm curious to see how they're going to handle Seasmoke since his bonded rider is still alive.
I'm on the team everyone always forgets, and the one that gets the worst of it in every war - Team Smallfolk. And in this case, Team Dragon, too. One of the most tragic aspects of this story is that this pointless power struggle kills nearly all of the dragons left in the known world. I'd rather keep the magnificent beasts alive than worry about who's on the throne!
The Wars of the Roses is more the basis for recent events in the GoT universe. Dance of Dragons is more like Matilda's claim.
I’m going to say this to correct you from early. Viserys actually was trying to change the precedent of male primogeniture to the iron throne specifically. In his conversation with Corlys when they discussed laenor wedding rhaenyra and who would rule after them, he specifically states that regardless of gender the firstborn child will rule.
More points for good old Vizzy!
Was just about to comment this. I’m glad someone beat me though!
Interestingly Rhaenyra did undo this. When she betrothed Jace and Baela she said to Rhaenys their sons would be heirs to the iron throne. Only the sons, not the daughters.
@@danika9411 She was talking in emotions. No way to say what would happen if Jace firstborn was daughter.
I was just about to comment this.😂
The Greens would also further the Hightower and Maesters agenda of destroying dragons …. That’s a plot point missing here IMHO
Because it's a fan theory it could be true could just be fan theory and even if they showed it why would it matter nobody found out
@@beckjayjohn5781it's a theory like evolution is a theory only ignorant people deny it and it matters because dragons are cool and lead to relative stability.
it's a fan theory
@@maxcritchley619 those aren't the same though evolution isn't a fan theory, and is also taught in schools, the maester conspiracy is a fan theory
@@maxcritchley619 not really. the dragons died bcs of the dance like the chances that the maesters play a MAJOR role in it is unlikely
The show makes it clear you are suppose to root for the blacks. I would say that is one of my minor complaints about the show is this idea that it is suppose to be ambiguous who are the good guys ... for the most part it's pretty clear in that it is the blacks (again at least the show wants you to think that).
Several members of the Greens are straight up Monsters, and even Allie the most sympathetic of all Greens literally drew blood on Rhaenyra before the war even started.
Damon is the only possibly "bad guy" on team black, while team green has several.
Besides people doing the "Well actually Little Finger is a hero" kind of click bait-y analysis, it is objectively seen as Team Black is who you are suppose to root for.
Aegon is objectively a bad guy, he ignores and possibly abuses his wife, he raped a maid, he watches the children beat each other to death (and it is suggested some are his children). No one could see Aegon from the show and legit go "yep, that's my guy, he should be king."
Rhaenyra is NOT great, she is the Westeros Karen, she doesn't show any real plan to make the Kingdom better, but feels she is entitled to the throne because her daddy promised it to her.... I mean he did, even if she is the rightful heir, in the words of GRRM.... what does that tell us about her tax policies?
As a viewer of the show, I am reluctantly team black, but I know it's because the show wants me to be team black.
If I was a citizen of Westeros, I would super not care, one stuck up dragon rider is the same as the next, maybe I'd be team green just because I was raised to think men are suppose to be rulers, but all in all, I'd just want food and to not get burned by a dragon. Who ever gets me that has my support.
Depending on how they present the rest of the story from the source material, I believe you’ll reconsider your outlook on the Blacks. It just depends on how we analyze one atrocity compared to another.
Im team black but honestly because i find them more interesting. Not because i believe they posses any moral high ground whatsoever.
To be fair, the dance of the Dragons is more inspired by “the Anarchy” between King Stephen and Empress Matilda. Not so much the war of the roses.
Yeah I literally was randomly reading about past kings and queens of England and as soon as the Anarchy was described I was like "wait a minute..."
@1:00 incorrect. Daemon WAS the male heir, by all rights, he should have been Crown Prince. But Otto hated him and pushed for Rhae... until he got his daughter in the marriage bed. Then became all 'by the blessed precedent of the sacred great council of 101...' because his grandson would be king.
Listen further
Otto trying to make V believe Daemon would kill him made no sense to me cause Daemon had years to do this but never did.
You can also notice the opposite is true of Daemon as well, somewhat. He went from "I want crown" to supporting Rhaenyra and her son as soon as it advantaged him as he'd be closer to power.
@@Voidwurm1701 Daemon had ample opportunity to take the throne multiple times....why didn't he? The moment he married Laena he could have annihilated them and forced them to bend the knee. Who could stop him? Laena had Vhagar, he has Caraxes, Rhaenys has Meleys and Corlys has the Velaryon fleet. Daemon wasn't even going to stay in Westeros after Laena's death, but Rhaenyra begged him to stay and marry her. He didn't want his daughter raised in that insanity.
The Daemon wanting power schtick is old now because we never actually see him plotting to do anything, whether it is against Viserys or Rhaenyra. It's like people just run with this narrative without fact checking.
Slight correction at 7:18 you say that daemon according to tradition would take the thrown over rhaenyra, but as is shown with Alys karstark a daughter takes precedence over an uncle, so otto was in fact keeping to the tradition when he had rhaenyra proclaimed heir.
Yes, this. In andal law it's sons before daughters, before uncles, before cousins.
People have an understandable aversion to the idea of Aegon as king, but the more you actually analyze the story, the more you see that the Greens are probably better for the stability of the realm, which should matter more than the who the "rightful" heir is.
It’s all out the window now. Who was initially right and wrong doesn’t matter once both sides declare war. Hopefully this is explored in the future of the series.
O.o
Aegon is a vicious idiot
At best he would have ended up in the bracket of Aegon IV probably with enough great bastards to rival
At Worst... Aerys II though I think Aemond would dispose of him if it got that far
@@davidlewis5312 Aemond would never Kill Aegon 😭😭 lol
@@dre5714 he kills a nephew, he kills an uncle, he tried to kill a cousin. Do you really think brother if that brother was a threat is that far removed?
They started a war...does not make them seem to be those Great stabilizers
I support Helaena
I would add the caveat that Rhaenyra doesn’t want to rule just to rule. She believes the Song of Ice & Fire prophecy and believes the Prince who was promised will come through her line. She said as much to Daemon. Ultimately, it’s about protecting Westeros and the world, not just gaining power for herself.
Also I’m not sure Aegon would give more stability. Unlike Rhae who attended the council meetings and learned to rule, Aegon is largely untutored. At best he’d be a puppet to House Hightower, which would cause dissent, or he’d be an absolute monarch with no knowledge of how to rule.
An Aegon Kingship would have bumps for sure, but Rhaenyra's would be a roller-coaster. Westeros values stability, tradition, and honor, but her being a woman already guarantees she'll be judged far worse than a king ever will, and petty Lords talking dissent behind her back.
Along with the rumors of her being "spoiled" before her marriage to Laenor, the dubious legitimacy of her children, the mysterious assassination of both her husband and Daemon's wife, Daemon being Daemon sits Rhaenyra's Queenship on a powder keg as she breaks too many of Westeros values.
Maybe Aegon's fratboy behavior would cause some trouble, but that weapon between his legs ensures it'll only be minor trouble for Otto and his mother.
@@lemoncash2787 Rhae would be judged harsher, but she also already knows how to rule. Aegon’s frat boy behavior is a problem for everyone because Westeros is an absolute monarchy. He would be making the laws and doing whatever he wants. Otherwise Otto Hightower would be doing that. The other great houses wouldn’t be too keen on Hightower supremacy.
Side note, speaking of tradition, they’ve even changed the traditional Targaryen colors and sigil.
@RiseeRee Aegon doesn't care about ruling he only cares about assaulting women and his dragon. Apart from that, he would mostly be a figurehead doing whatever Otto or his mother wanted, both of which were basically in charge of the kingdom at the later part of Viserys rule anyway, and not much dissent arose from their overtaking of the throne anyway.
While Aegon still might cause bumps, there's nothing that dooms the Kingdom to rebellion. He's not a bastard who caused the Blackfyre rebellion, holds traditional Targaryen customs (not taking another wife or otherwise provoking the faith), and isn't sadistic like Joffery.
He would have to be incredibly retarded to somehow mess it up. Maybe sleep with some high Lord's daughters or name one of his bastards.
I know the book. Both aren't very good rulers, but Aegon actually proved to be better than Rhaenyra. Even if just a little bit. Rhaenyra didn't care about the people and had a "if they don't have bread they should just eat cake" mentality and was really far removed from how people live.
Mild spoilers, no important plot points of the story mentioned:
She f.e. taxed having illegitimate children. People couldn't pay their taxes and starved and she was having a birthday party foe her son ect. I'm not going to say anymore. But she had no idea about how people actually live and how her rules will affect them.
@RiseeRee Aegon doesn't care about ruling he only cares about assaulting women and his dragon. Apart from that, he would mostly be a figurehead doing whatever Otto or his mother wanted, both of which were basically in charge of the kingdom at the later part of Viserys rule anyway, and not much dissent arose from their overtaking of the throne anyway. While Aegon still might cause bumps, there's nothing that dooms the Kingdom to rebellion. He's not a bastard who caused the Blackfyre rebellion, holds traditional Targaryen customs (not taking another wife or otherwise provoking the faith), and isn't sadistic like Joffery. He would have to be incredibly retarded to somehow mess it up. Maybe sleep with some high Lord's daughters or name one of his bastards
You say the people would pick Aegon as their ruler because that's what they did in the great council but that doesn't mean that would just happen again here. Rhaenys wasn't made the legal heir like Rhaenyra was, it actually gives her legitimacy. Also, if you look at the war, most houses sided with the blacks anyway, so claiming they would not choose her in another great council doesn't exactly make sense and comparing this to the first one isn't totally fair imo
We’ll never know, but that’s a fair rebuttal.
Minor note: in the show, Viserys was absolutely trying to change succession to favor the first-born child regardless of gender. He said as much to Corlys. And with that in mind, I have to disagree with your comment about which claimant would create a stable realm. Yes, the lords of Westeros will always prefer a male heir, but that's no reason to accept their prejudice and just roll over. If everyone acts as you suggest and only goes for the path of least resistance, the realm will never improve. Women would always be inferior, bastards could never get more rights, and the smallfolk would always be stomped on. Change requires a willingness to upset the establishment, and making decisions based on not offending people means that things never get better.
Similarly, I think it's presumptuous to say that Rhaenyra being the heir is responsible for all the instability. Ultimately, the Hightowers, and her sblings, were the ones who chose to incite violence. People could be upset with her reign all they want, but if the prince they want to crown doesn't support them, there's only so much to be done. The war started because the greens wanted the throne despite Rhaenyra being heir, and they were willing to kill everyone to get it. That is on them, and Rhaenyra isn't to blame for not folding to their demands.
Also, I just want to note that Rhaenyra's children are not known to be bastards. Sure, there are definitely rumors, and those rumors are making people talk, but there is no proof. "Just look at them" is not proof, and short of either Laenor or Corlys insisting they're bastards (as the man claiming to be their father and the Lord of House Velaryon), there's no way to really get proof. Yes, the rumors would likely follow them, but they would never become more than that. Keep in mind, the history books continue to call them Velaryons, lords they met had no issue making betrothals with them (Lord Manderly was fine with accepting Joffrey for his daughter, Cregan Stark had no issue with betrothing his son to Jacaerys' daughter, and Borros Baratheon was fine with Luke marrying one of his girls). So while yes, the talk would probably be irksome, it probably wouldn't lead to anything without the greens fanning the flames and trying to rebel anyway.
Thank you for explaining that Westeros follows an absolute monarchy because fans are saying that Westeros is not an absolute monarchy, and some people are saying that the king's word is not law, which is dumb and idiotic.
But the Greens would establish the male-dominance law and in the eyes of many they are in the right because they are following tradition, but what they don’t understand is that same tradition is why there was so much friction in house Targaryen before and after Jaehaerys’s death and Aemma’s death. It was the reason why Viserys wanted his daughter to be his instead of his son he did it all out of love and guilt.
However, Rhaenyra’s claim was already challenged and questioned the moment Aegon was born. Alicent makes it clear as long as he’s alive he is a threat to her family and to her claim. Aegon is crowned as the king.
He doesn’t see his three Strong nephews as a threat. He sees his two younger nephews Aegon The Younger and baby Viserys as the threat, and no matter what the Greens offer they will always find a way to go after her two younger sons they will never let her live in peace, which is why I agree that she needs to fight for her claim.
Me too, I blame Viserys for ALL of it.
Daemon was right all alone, Viserys was weak.
System and Jaehaerys are too blame. Not Viserys.
Viserys wasn't chosen as a king because he was male. His competitor was Leanor, not Rhaenys. Even in the show you can make an argument that Leanor would inherit the throne eventually.
I’m conflating the show here a bit, but my point still stands with the decision to pass up Rhaenys when Aemon died.
Instead of killing each other the houses should have been able to vote .
I choose Cregan Stark to rule.
I’m just here because big dragons go brrrrrrrr 🙃🔥
Why is everyone claiming that the Great Council of 101 chose Viserys over Rhaenys?! Rhaenys was NEVER considered, she pressed her SONS claim, not hers. It was NEVER her vs Viserys, female vs male, it was Male vs Male, Viserys vs Laenor. And there were more reasons for the nobles to chose Viserys then just 'but hes a man!'. He recently lost his dragon and was considered less a threat by not being a dragonrider, also his line was the most senior under saelic law, even under semi-saelic law and Laenor was still a child, also Viserys has established himself as mildly mannered, a great point of concern for the nobles after Maegors rule was still fresh in his mind, and his wife was pregnant, so succession was safe, the very reason why Jaeherys called the council.
I’m doing this because I conflate the show and book. And the show isn’t explicitly clear about Laenor’s claim. But you’re not wrong about anything here
They did choose viserys over rhaenys
Why on earth then she is called "Queen who never was" even in the books I beleive
@@MsSourabh108 Mushroom, the court dwarf / jester, invents it as a prank bcz he knows it will get under her skin
Thank u so much of the video.
I only chose the greens because they know how to manage a kingdom unlike Rhaenyra given she gave the Greens 6 YEARS TO RULE.
Rt for all her good heart says she will create a new order but does nothing to help herself, her children, her relationship and image with the people over the course of when she is named heir.
1. Has 3 obvious bastards
2. which weakens Rt claims n creates succession crisis
3. Supports a law that mutilates people( it’s TREASON TO TALK ABOUT MY TREASON)
4. Marries a man who was DENOUNCED as Heir which is the SOLE REASON y she was named heir in the first place.
5. Encourages her uncle publicly in FRONT OF HER FUTURE IN LAWS n help say that rumor was TRUE in episode 5.
6. Makes EVERYONE believe she killed her HUSBAND INCLUDING HER FOMER IN LAWS.
7 and 8 Marries a man who killed his FIRST WIFE AND IS NOT ALLOWED IN THE VALE WHICH IS ONR OF THE SIX KINGDOMS SHE WILL GOVERN N NEED SUPPORT IN THE UPCOMING WAR.
9. Didn’t visit her father for 6 years
10. Didn’t visit king landing for 6 years the place she will rule later.
11. Let greens RULE THE KINGDOM FOR 6 years
12. Didn’t build any alliances for 6 years on dragonstone.
13. trying to USURP THE DRIFTMART THRONE
14 and 15 last minute marriage proposals that were denied by Alicent and Rhaenys
16. Advocated for the torture of her brother in episode 7
17. Didn’t visit her father until she needed something from him a man who is loosing body parts by the minute.
18. Didnt know who her Allies were before she went to war.
19. Sleep with men knowing if they r caught they will be tortured n killed. (Criston +HARWIN)
20. Sent her sons REMINDER LETTERS to the LORDS SHE WILL NEED TO MAKE ALLIANCES
21. Offered NOTHING IN RETURN FOR THE ALLIANCES / EMPTY HANDS.
Rt comes with to much baggage as an heir while Aegon faults are not publicly known and lets be honest Aegon will be doing what he and Rhaenyra was doing for the last 6 years lets Otto, Alicent, and the rest of the council do the work lol
I would still choose Aegon because he can be manipulated by his competent counselors. Rhaenryra had the chance to build alliances but instead had to rely on her father to protect her from all the mistakes SHE made.
I choose the side that will not destabilize the realm and that will respect the traditions and culture of westeros.....granted my choice would be Rhaenys over the horrible two choices of Aegon and Rhaenyra.
0:38 disagree! Westeros as a single realm started with Targaryens, and as Jaeherys choosed Viserys as heir and then he did the same. 1:35 Vaemond has no valid claim to Driftmark, after Laenor lineage Laena lineage should be included. For example, Cersei is the Lady of Casterly Rock and not Kevin lineage
Vaemond isn’t making a claim against Laenor or Laena, he’s making a claim because Lucerys is not a legitimate Velaryon.
Without the Green faction a rebellion would just be impossible, no one in the real would dare to go against a family with 20 dragons. If Viserys doesnt marry Alicent and remains alone until the end of his life nothing like a rebellion would ever occur.
Not in this generation, but Jace is illegitimate and has no claim to the throne. If legitimized he would be put in line of succession for Harrenhal, because Harwin was his father. And even if you say that Rhaenyras line is stronger than Harwins and put him in line of success of the iron throne, legitimate children come before legitimized ones. Meaning Aegon iii and Viserys ii are in line before Jace, Luce and Joffrey. Very mind spoiler Viserys ii is like a second Otto Hightower. He might accept Jace, but his children might not. The dance would have happened regardless, just 1-2 generations later. We have another incident like that with the Blackfyre rebellion.
So even if Viserys doesn't marry again, Rhaenyra planted the seeds for another dance already.
@@danika9411 i don´t think Rhaenyra marries Daemon if she doesn´t has the threat of the greens, i believe thats her only reason to do it. Look, to me the obvious thing if you are a good king is you marry your brother with your daughter, weird to say but thats what Targeryans do but even if he doesn´t do that, again, no reason for Rhaenyra to marry her uncle without the threat of the greens.
There was dozens of ways to avoid the conflict and they all went tits up. Such is the writing for a plot meant to be overly dramatic.
@@danika9411 100% Rhaenyra stupidly created a succession crisis within her own children and is too blind and naive to see what would happen. And you're right, the siblings might be close, but their children could be a whole other story. Orys and Aegon were close, but Orys' descendant ended up unseating the Targaryen dynasty. Shit, Alicent and Rhaenyra were close once, and look at what happened.
It only takes one disgruntled lord/lords to whisper in Aegon III's ear after he's had an argument with Jace that he's being usurped by a Strong boy and that the Iron Throne is his by rights. And are we so sure that Daemon won't be lobbying for Aegon and Viserys' rights as King and heir to the Seven Kingdoms?
So yes, Rhaenyra created The War of the Five Kings 1.0 because she'd rather pursue her selfish desires than do her duty with Laenor
Well I wasn't aware of everything that was shown in Dance of the Dragons till this. Haven't watched it fully yet. Fair case but if I were someone in the Seven Kingdoms during this time I would have supported Rhanerya since that was the oath I swore. Still this shows neither her nor Aegon were qualified to rule.
Team Black 🖤
calling rhaenyra selfish isnt true she doesnt want the throne for selfish reasons while she doesnt want to break the wheel she does want to uphold aegons prophecy and is the best choice for that she says this to viserys "if you wish me to bear it then defend me" she doesnt want to rule she just wants to do her own thing and not be controlled by customs and tradition which is the opposite of being queen this is a buden she accepts for the protection of the realm and her line does go on to produce dany and jon proving she was the correct choice prophecy wise
I suppose, but at what point does that itself become selfishness because she considers herself the only one who can do it?
@@Voidwurm1701 i dont think its selfishness if its true she is the only one who can do it as we can see by her line going on to produce dany and jon only one line can go on to produce azor ahai
I don't support the greens or the blacks. They are family, and they should be united. Targaryans are fighting for power. It makes me mad. Vicerys was a fool for not seeing what was coming. It cost the realm a lot. And about choosing someone good for the realm, Rhaenys would have been a great Queen.
I'm neutral on the whole Black vs Green conflict, but I will say this: the only character I can sympathize with is Alicent (and maybe Mysaria, although I'm not sure about her agenda). Don't get me wrong, they're all interesting, but not sympathetic. Alicent is caught between many rocks and hard places, trying/hoping to keep her friendship with Rhaenyra, trying to hold it together, although I assume she's going to adopt a more inflexible stance moving forward. This is something I really appreciate about Martin's writing: his understanding of historical tragedy, how events and other people can push you into conflict with someone you never wanted a conflict with in the first place. How you end up fighting against someone you never had a quarrel with in the first place or with whom sitting at the same table and just talking without others interfering, you might reach a peaceful agreement. And how events that didn't have to happen, that could have been avoided, did end up happening with all their terrible consequences.
The young Alicent maybe. Not the older version. She was turned into a manipulative witch by her meddling father. Not to say Rhaenyra is any better.
When given the choice people choose wrong
I am going with my girl shireen i choose neither
Team Black 👑⚔️🐉 The king named Rhaenera his heir so that's what it is he never wanted Aegon to succeed him and sit 🪑 the throne 👑
Traditionally the King doesn't choose his heir, he let's the natural succession laws take their course. Viserys choosing Rhaenyra doesn't settle the matter because that is not the tradition. Whenever a King choose an heir that would not otherwise have been the traditional heir, the realm ignores the King's unilateral choice and goes with tradition. We saw this when Maegor choose Aerea as his heir but when he died the throne went to Jaehaerys who as the last living son of Aenys was the lawful heir. Similarly when Aegon the Unworthy wished his bastard son Daemon to succeed him, the realm ignored the legitimisation decree and supported his legitimate son Daeron the Good who by tradition was the heir. It is the same thing here, Viserys says that Rhaenyra is heir but tradition says Aegon is heir and so it was.
He can name bloody Jamaican Mysaria his heir, that doesn't make it valid or viable.
@@Voidwurm1701 The king's word IS LAW! Whether u like it or not.
@@Voidwurm1701 keep your mouth close 😂😂
@@daryehl5910 If that's true, Daemon Blackfyre should be King and so should Joffrey, since that's Robert Baratheon's dying wish.
I agree, it was all Viserys’ fault without a doubt. Awesome character as well.
5:39 I'll say it. No. It's either Mace or Renly. Yes, I mean the book versions.
I am not standing with any of them. I only sympethize with Healena and dragons.
Aegon being named heir would not have prevented the Dance of the Dragons it would only have delayed it. There were too many Targaryens with too many dragons, there would have been a Dance either way.
Maybe, but it’s all hypothetical. So is my assumption of peace under Aegon. I can imagine Daemon’s response with Otto’s grandson as heir.
@@DCharles True, it is hypothetical. Although now that you mention it, the Dance might have happened in a different way since I could see Daemon trying to set up a kingdom in Step Stones rather than bending the knee to Otto’s grandson even if Aegon was named heir.
And if it's a question of legitimacy then name Aegon the 3rd king 👑
I support neither, targs were the worst thing to ever happen to Westeros. Their decimation was a massive net positive. Bobby B is Azor Ahai.
Ok, 2nd comment (supporting the algorithm here 😀) regarding cheating in royal couples. Yes, it's true, it is unfair morally, but on the other hand, there's an important practical reason why cheating Kings were treated with more lenience than cheating Queens. The theory is this: for a baby to be legitimate he/she needs the proper parents and only legitimate children should be considered for succession. When a King cheats, you see the baby coming out of the wrong woman, so it's clear that baby has no right to the crown. However, when a Queen cheats, it's harder to tell who the actual father is and this could give rise to succession crises/civil wars. I'm not saying it as an excuse for Kings, but it is something to consider why there's a difference in how they're treated. I know I wouldn't find it fun to die in a civil war just because a Queen fell in love with some guy and now multiple guys say they're the new Kings.
The Blacks have the right to rule because the king said so, but the king was a fool by not ensuring that all the noble houses would once more see Rhaenyra as the queen after the birth of his son Aegon II. All the houses in Westero as a whole are already in a male only inheritance. For the king to change that and not continue to support it after the birth of his son cause the war.
Aegon in this show also wasn't raised with love, proper guidence or wasn't even prepared to rule, Rhaenyra was. Fault is on Viserys, but if Alicent and Rhaenyra better talked about the matter they could have find common solution after Viserys died. If only they were more honest with each other the entire conflict never would have happened
True, but I doubt Rhaenyra was anymore prepared to rule than Aegon is. She spends most of her life as heir on Dragonstone and lets the Greens take over the Small Council and rule in the King's stead. Then her actions as heir seriously puts doubts on her capabilities as a ruler, I mean her Strong sons are evidence, and cutting out people's tongues for telling the truth and overall committing treason by usurping Driftmark from trueborn claimants like Baela.
none of the bastard points are relevant its not supposed to be obvious they are bastards thats the showrunners fault for making the velaryons black and giving rhaenys white hair
I've never ascribed to this whole Team green vs Team Black nonsense. It doesn't matter who we, as viewers, want on the throne. A wise fictional character once said "Whoever wins the war becomes justice"
Both sides have merit. Thing is Blacks wouldve had a claim if the queen accepted that her bastards were bastards. Male kings had bastards and they didnt try to make theim heirs to big lands. Thats what infuriated the other lords to start a rebelion
No, they wouldn't. Greens were plottng against Rhaenyra long before she had any child.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 no they did not. Since Viserys his wife was still alive.
@@Chickentorchic What? Greens wanted Viserys made Aegon heir when he was still infant, long before Rhaenyra had any child of her own.
Rhaenyra was the rebel and usurper
@@trifurobert1349 Absolutely not. Aegon was. Rhaenyra was declared heir by her father and she should inherited crown.
I’m a die hard Viserys defender. This was not his fault. More blame belongs to King Jahaerys. The Great Council was a mistake.
1. He should’ve made the call. He could’ve easily crushed any rebellion and those would be heirs were fond of him.
2. The great Council not only set precedent of primogeniture, it also set a precedent for nobility having a say. This moved from King’s word being final to, well the king has preferences but he’s not infallible.
3. Aegon and his sisters were co-rulers, crowning Jahaerys was the first time primogeniture actually occurred.
So to me, I think Viserys felt guilty about taking the thrown and saw Rhaenyra along with her marriage to laenor, being both symbolic and actual restitution, toward Rhaenys.
He made his decision in the way that Jahaerys should have. But it was too late.
I second this
i third this
I really don't understand all the simping for Viserys. Harry Lloyd gave a amazing and powerful performance and there are many good things one could say about Viserys as a person and as a husband ,father, and grandfather. But a good King he was not. He made many huge blunders including but not limited to...
1. He only named Rhaenerya his heir to prevent Daemon from inheriting because Otto Hightower convinced him Daemon was too dangerous to be king. It wasn't because he saw any special ability in Rhaenerya.
2. He ignored Rhaenerya's bastards. It's understandable why he did it but ignoring them seriously undermined his credibility and Rhaenerya's credibility in the eyes of his vassels. A king who tries to put himself or herself above the law does so at their own risk.
3. He allowed too many dragonriders. Jaehaerys only permitted three out of his thirteen children to become dragonriders. Viserys let all of his children and grandchilden become dragonriders. The dance probably wouldn't have happened or at least not been nearly as destructive without so many dragonriders.
4. He renamed Otto Hightower as Hand of the King despite already firing him for being a scheming bastard. That was a stupid and very short sighted thing to do.
@@lordbrowningthank u idk how people can say king v was a good king, he wasn’t even a good husband to both his wives n was a terrible father to Alicent kids
@@lordbrowning As to your 3rd point, why were Laenor and Laena even given dragons? Yes they have Valyrian blood and their mother was a Targaryen Princess but they themselves were not Targaryens. That's like the US government giving direct control of some nukes to Texas or California. Way for a King to completely undermine his own base of power. Rhaenyra did the same thing too, now that I think about it.
Realm did not choose rhaenyra? Did not more than half the realm fought by her side?
They chose the king viserys , those who chose aegon actually chose aegon
Team Green 💚
Team green male promencalature set down by the great king jahareys himself who predicted house Targaryen will only destroy it's self
I think Aemond should be king.. so team green I guess lol. Also the war was ultimately lost when the common people accepted Aegon as king, you're right they never would have accepted a female ruler without some type of rebellion which they do when she does try to rule, they run her out of the city eventually.
Aemond is the one character I was most excited to see brought to life from the source material.
If I remember correctly, it has been a while since I read the book, they run her out of the city because she is tyrannical. The war had pretty much bankrupted her, so she imposed numerous taxes on the smallfolk to the point they were getting wrung for every penny, and that's why they rose up.
@@michaelbuick6995the war didn't bankrupt her.
The Greens stole the money from Kings Landing and sent it to hightower and The Rock.
@@michaelbuick6995 you are correct
@@michaelbuick6995 Close, but the taxes were implemented because Aegon had the city’s coffers emptied when he bounced, so she took over an already bankrupted city. The common folk obviously knew nothing about that & didn’t care
Team daemon and aemond 😂💯
You know those 2 look very much alike.
The Greens didn't kill a sleeping child.
Blacks did not send assasin for a child but for a king
There's a line from Viserys declaring that Rhaenyra's kids are his trueborn grandkids. I know he knows their true parentage, so I took it as "don't make me say naturalized." After losing so many babies with his first wife and the wife herself, he's just happy Rhaenyra survived three healthy births. He has the power to pardon Rhaenyra and naturalize her children, what the realm thinks be damned. That would cause chaos, true, but he could do it. If Robert can pardon Jaime of treason and regicide, Viserys can do this. Since he wants to preserve the peace of the realm he's just taken a "The King is speaking, that's that" kind of tone with everyone. Is he delusional about it working? Yes. Should he have arranged his daughter's coronation and abdicated in the same moment he crowned her himself to avoid the Dance? Yes. Would it have worked? Probably still no, but Otto, Alicent, and Cole would have to STFU and chew on that checkmate before rebelling. Viserys also has the power to pass Driftmark to Lucerys. Not that he needs to since Corlys knows the kids aren't his grandkids and doesn't care. No one who's opinion actually legally matters cares. The blood relation issue was fixed with the marriages to Laena's kids anyway.
For the people comparing Cersei's affair with Rhaenyra's, apples and horse pies. Rhaenyra is royal by birth and heir to the throne. Cersei is royal by marriage only. ANY kid Rhaenyra has is blood related to the King. Icky as it is to say, Cersei had one job, have the King's babies. The Greens are seizing on a law that wasn't written for this situation. Speaking of the law, making Ser Criston the Kingmaker a Dornishman was a silly change. Dornish succession is according to birth order and, according to Oberyn, bastards aren't hated in Dorne. Dorne had a Queen when Aegon the Conqueror came to Westeros. Also, honorable Ned Stark still made an effort to protect Cersei's kids before revealing the truth. I've seen the character and fandom Greens spit venom at the Strong boys like they were born bastards on purpose. I can say from experience, being hated for the circumstances of your birth can be traumatizing on an existential level.
As for Rhaenyra's lie to Alicent, which led to the green dress, there's a little more to that. Rhaenyra was covering Daemon and Cole's butts with that half lie as well. Alicent damaged the trust between them when she didn't tell Rhaenyra about the plot to marry Viserys. I'd probably lie too. Looking at the notes Alicent and Cole have to compare, they probably believe Cole was the second man she bedded that night, not the first and only, and she then used Moon Tea to get rid of Cole's maybe baby. Neither of those points came up, but it's probably adding to Ser Criston's hate and disgust. On the boat, he was probably freaking out about the possibility of her being pregnant with his child when he made his honor centric proposal. Rhaenyra's lie covers Laenor's gay butt and Harwin's treasonous butt, admittedly not very well. Personally, I would have enlisted the help of a man from the brothel who likes both men and women to chipmunk a kid into me if I were Rhaenyra, but that's nasty, resourceful me.
The green royal the black ops droll
Team Green. Sorry but Rhaenyra and her peoples have shown no sign of ruling competence.
Yey, Team Misogynist! I wonder when exactly Aegon show any competnce to rule, because both book and show are very clear he was incompetent drunk 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Choosing a side is dumb.
Esp the Greens. Like holy fk..Aegon is an actual pedi..smh
Looks like you already chose a side.
And it's the one of a woman who's pushing her bastard sons on the throne for prophecy which clearly states that her heirs need to be Targaryen, not Velaryons or Strong.
Rhaenyra and Daeron murdered a random innocent guy and framed someone else for it. I guess it depends what you think is a worse crime.
'I blame Viserys for all' - Yeah, sure... Father is too blame because he chose daughter as heir. Why not blame... let me think... system? Or Jahaerys who could chose his granddaughter, but was prejudiced towards women and left everyone in complicated situation? Supporting Greens is supporting misog777y. Period. As for Rhaenyra covering Laenor's escape - that is EXACTLY quality you would want for ruler - to be astute and cunning. Rhaenyra knows that what officially happenend to Laenor will cause people to fear to turn against her... yet people can only SUSPECT her, none is able to prove her anything, so she remains legally innocent. BRILLIANT move. And no - she cannot tell Corlys and Rhaenys. None can knows for sake of her children by Daemon.
This is a really narrow way of viewing things. If supporting the greens is supporting misogyny, then supporting the blacks supports child murder. Have fun in season 2. Don’t mischaracterize what I said and then act virtuous by debating a point I’m not making.
@@DCharles Was Luke not a child then??? 😮 Greens were first who raised their hand at child. Yes, supporting Greens is misogyny and you are misogynist. There is absolutely NOTHING to debate here. 💁🏻♂ What Daemon did was horrible - but it still does not justify Greens STEALING crown of Rhaenyra with the ONLY reason being her gender and giving it to incompetent drunk. You are taking away lion's cub and you are surprised lions are angry at you? 😂😂😂😂😂
But they’re not stealing it because she’s a woman. They’re claiming she’s not rightful heir because she’s a woman as a way to give Aegon power and by marriage, power to the Hightowers. Probably too subtle for you to digest considering your very narrow interpretation. The system is misogynistic, and Rhaenrya is only fighting for her right to rule that system, not change it. You don’t know what you’re talking about, you don’t know what misogyny means. The Dance isn’t about women’s rights. Rhaenys was fighting for the claim to give the crown to Laenor as heir, not Laena. None of these women were fighting for women’s equality. If you want to do this virtue signaling nonsense, go find someone claiming women are inferior and irritate them. My goal is to have a nuanced perspective about a work of fiction.
@@DCharles 'But they’re not stealing it because she’s a woman. They’re claiming she’s not rightful heir because she’s a woman" - That is the SAME thing. By claiming she is not rightfull ruler they attempted to STEAL her inheritence.
@@DCharles 'Rhaenrya is only fighting for her right to rule that system, not change it. ' - Oh, so that means discriminating her because of her gender is okay??? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 Listen, none should expect her overthrown patriarchy over night. But how ANY change in future be possible, if don't start with such small steps as allowing woman to rule in first place?
I think a lot of support for the Blacks is precisely because Rhaenyra is transgressive. She breaks every rule, and for entirely selfish reasons, and tells bald faced lies about it, even going so far as to demand a child be tortured, and let people be executed, for calling her out. There's a misplaced sense of "fempowerment" here and I say misplaced because it's completely amoral.
I like that you led with the whole thing about Rhaenyra's sons being bastards, because that really is the clincher. Her father stepped on a lot of toes to make her queen but if she had true born kids, it would have been fine. A female heir is unorthodox, but not scandalous. Her father bent over backwards to put her on the throne and she squandered it. She completely failed to hold up her end of the deal, and even now she could just step down and let Aegon II have it. If she did she could still be on the small council or even Hand. But no, her father promised her a pony and seven hells she is getting that pony. It's still her being completely selfish.
Thank u for this comment couldn’t agree more
Someone summed it up best when they said that Rhaenyra is 'progressive' and Alicent is 'conservative' and so naturally those real-life factions trend towards each of those sides which are rough stand-ins for them. That's why you get a lot of the audience straight up ignoring and even justifying things like the Helaena kiddy death while at the same time saying that Aegon is bad because he SA'd a young maid. Basically, it's showing that people are wedded to their own side so much that they are *completely missing the entire point of the show* which is a 'race to the bottom' and a 'what we justify during war' theme.
If the writers ignore the fans on this one, then the fan reaction will actually serve to compliment the story, showing how realistic it is. If the writers listen to the fans, then they'll start to write one side as being more 'moral' and will basically tank their own show's central theme as a result, and we'll end up with a weird Danification thing where people are just utterly confused about what is happening like in Season 8 of GOT because she was essentially written to be a 'feminist icon' after the writers responded to fan outpouring, but she also needs to destroy an entire city in order to stay true to the narrative. Same with Sansa and the Sand Snakes - Sansa is a 'feminist girlboss queen' but also ends up watching a man get eaten by a dog and smiles. The sand snakes randomly kill their own family member and an innocent girl because "weak men (who brought stability) will never rule Dorne!"
Note that I'm not criticising the theme of a character, only when it's inconsistent and jarring to the narrative. If you want a write a feminist character, write a feminist character, but do not ruin the story to do it.
Pretending Rhaenyra having bastards is the thing that made the dance happen is such a dumb argument. All of rhaenyras kids could be legitimate and the greens were going to usurp her, that was the point, the greens were always going to find an excuse
@@09hicktown Its a key component as to y it happened though. If rt had legtimate kids i highly doubt alicent would have said no to the proposal to jace and helena and it could possibly change the driftmart incident. N without alicent or her kids, otto would be all alone n would not have a viable plan to overthrow rhaenyra. The Greens were only able to take control due to rhaenyra constant mistakes throughout her time as heir. Their is no worst enemy to the blacks but themselves.
@@jjosifovic Anything to simp for your faves huh?
Gotta disagree here. Your 1st point about “fempowerment” from a fan base standpoint is however, spot on. It was the same with Dani. So many cheered for her simply because she was a woman taking down men not because she was particularly correct. Rhaenyra has that same type of support but…😂
Ultimately Rhaenyra is correct. You discuss whether she’s selfish, which she is, but that’s not the point. Team Green is also selfish. Stop for a moment and think, only Alicent is a diehard believer in Rhaenyra shouldn’t be Queen because she’s amoral & her children are bastards. Otto and the rest of the power behind team Green are more concerned with keeping tradition and keeping the Hightowers in power. These are just as selfish reasons. If this group would lose their power and influence if Aegon became king do you really believe they would still back the Greens? No, therefore their motives are selfish. And as for your “pony” comment…how is it any worse for Rhaenyra to want what was promised to her than it is for Alicent to want what she feels was promised to her side. Remember, she switched up only because she believes that Viserys changed his mind on his death bed and decided to name Aegon his heir. Why is it not selfish for Alicent to be willing to go to war for her “promised pony” but somehow Rhaenyra is selfish for wanting the pony she was promised publicly and multiple times. The selfish argument doesn’t hold water.
Finally, your other random arguments pointing out Rhaenyra’s failings is fine as long as you also look at the failings of team Green. Such as the type of person Aegon is as a whole, the type of spiteful woman and bad mother Alicent has become and the complete shadiness of Otto & for having a ready made takeover plan setup. I think all of that balances out any failings Rhaenyra brings to the table and therefore we are left with the fact that throughout it all Viserys still chose Rhaenyra which makes her claim just and her side right.
Green💚
🤨😑 I’m team black because as much as I get the green arguments, at the end of the day viserys named her heir AND all the lords of Westeros swore fealty to her (even if they had no choice or if half of those who swore it died). Your last point well can be indeed moot about the greens creating stability when (even if we agree that the culprit of this was indeed veserys for being weak) they actually started the war with their coup and the killing of luke. Hell, when aegon was born Otto’s brother even planted the seed of discourse even if the other lords were bickering behind the scenes about a women on the throne. The legitimacy of Jace is another point that in the future can be addressed because even if he was a bastard, people know about Leanors preferences and how could it be possible for that guy to get it with a women after Jace was born and clearly didn’t resembled him? 3 was indeed a slap in the face to the whole look of the monarchy but rhaeneria was simply doing what viserys told her to do (in having heirs) but she was dealt a bad hand and had to do what she needed to do to have those heirs. If in season 8 gendry can be lord of storms end and even have a better claim to the iron throne than Joffrey and tomen (who was a bastard and even Ramsay Bolton be roose’s heir) why couldn’t Jace be king or Luke lord of driftmark? Driftmark is indeed a stretch but kings landing no as Jace is rhaenyra’s trueborn son. Another issue about a women on the throne is dorne. Dorne is the only kingdom that allows for inheritance of titles to women and (I’m not too sure here) they’re part of the kingdom, how could the fact of a women in the throne be a shock? And think about it. The great council was a pragmatic solution to avoid blood… BUT it also showed that the idea of a women not inheriting the iron throne was not a universally accepted concept because they had to let the lords DECIDE who will get the crown. Had that idea been out of the question, then, that council wouldn’t had happened at all and viserys would have been the heir or even leanor from the start. So a degree of mind convincing could have happened in letting a women sit the iron throne but (unless it’s in the book) we never would know if the decision was unanimous or Rhaenys claim simply was outvoted and viserys had a majority.
Disagree about Joffrey and Tommen - none could prove they were bastards. Robert was the only one who could denounce them, and this opportnuity died with him. Which means Joffrey and his siblings are legally over Gendry.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 🤨 what? Well, in the books…. Everybody knows they’re bastards and in the series there are hints as well. That book about the lineage could serve as proof as well as the bastards that Robert’s seed produced black-haired individuals not golden ones. The reason why nobody (and this is an inference of mine) is willing to openly call them bastards and denounce them is basically because of Tywin. It helps that your grandfather not only has a army but one of the powerful armies as well as the gold to back it up. Plus you’re already in the seat of power with a small armies around you to kill anyone who opposes you… plus people can tell. They could easily tell that Luke, Jace, and joff (from dance) we’re not Laenor’s true born sons so I can’t buy that line from your about them not being able to tell or even proof it. Stannis, Renly, and Ned (as well those who rumored) denounced them as bastards when they raised their banners (well renly and stannis) and challenged the authority of them and when Joffrey sent slynt to kill Robert’s bastards was also a way to legitimize gendry because he was rightfully so viewed as a threat to his claim to the throne
@@leonardoespino9780 O gosh... I am talking from LEGAL point of view. NONE can prove they are bastards, they can suspect this, but not PROVE.
'They could easily tell that Luke, Jace, and joff (from dance) we’re not Laenor’s true born ' - Yes, but because tey were recognized by Laenor, they are legitimate in eyes of law. Their look doesn't change a thing.
Team Green 💚💚💚
^ sexist
Claiming Viserys is responsible for Dance, because he did not Aegon his heir is incredibly NARROW MINDING and misogynistic.👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻 It's basically saying: 'we won't give woman her throne, because there could be unrest'. 🙄🙄EVERY social change can cause unrest. By thinking this way there will be no changes for better. And I am fully aware Dance is not about women rights - but even if Rhaenyra is not supporting women rights in 21st century sens, taking away her crown simply because she is woman is still MISOGYNY and should be called out. It is Jahaerys I that upheld this system - he is indirectly responsible for Dance, not Viserys. And Greens are ones who are directly responsible. There is absolutely ZERO justification for Greens action. If they let Rhaenyra to rule in peace and she turned out to be incompetent and they find more suitable heir - fair enough. But that was NOT what happened. They never let her rule and their own candidate was complete disaster. How could anyone defend them is ming blowing. 😳😳🤯🤯😆😆😆😆
That’s incredible! 🤯
@@DCharles What exactly is so 'incredible'? That Jahaerys was the one who started this all by favouring male heirs over female whole his life? Or that supporting incompetent man over woman who was rightful heir is misogynistic regardless wheter woman in question fights for women rights or not (since 'misogynistic' practice is something that denigrade ALL women because of their gender, not only women who are 21st century feminists)?
This is impressive! We need more like you! 🫡
@@DCharles I hope you are serious now. Anyway, though I always was Team Black, I truly see this matter clear after watching channel called Phoenix Ashes. I think her analysis of Rhaenyra are truly on point and I am more firmly in my stance thanks to her - I went to her thinking there is nunace, but she proved me there is no. Rhaenyra is the only rightful Queen and supporting Aegon inevitably means supporting misogyny.
I’m overwhelmed! Phenomenal performance. I can’t believe it! Just wow 🤯
Team green