Building the Palestinian State With Salam Fayyad
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- “If only we had a partner for peace.”
That’s been the refrain in the Israel-Palestinian conflict for as long as I’ve followed it. But the truth is you don’t need just a partner - you need two partners able to deliver at the same time.
So you could see it as a tragedy of history that Salam Fayyad joined the Palestinian Authority in 2002, at the height of the second intifada, just as Israeli society shifted hard to the right.
A Western-educated economist, Fayyad is a technocrat at heart. And as the Palestinian Authority’s finance minister, and then as prime minister, he dedicated himself to the spadework of state-building. His theory was that instead of waiting around for the peace process to deliver Palestinian statehood, he would just build a state - institutions, infrastructure, security, sewers and all - and then statehood would follow.
And by many measures, he was remarkably successful. The economy boomed, crime plummeted, and in 2011 the United Nations declared the authority ready to run an independent state. But in April 2013, Fayyad resigned. And today, the Palestinian Authority in tatters, widely seen by Palestinians as corrupt and a failure.
Fayyad is now a visiting senior scholar at Princeton. And I wanted to have him on the show to talk about his time building a Palestinian state. What did he learn working with the various factions - including Hamas - in Palestinian politics? What did he learn working with Israel? How did we still end up here? And what, given all he’s seen and done, does he think should happen now?
Mentioned:
Into the Breach: Salam Fayyad and Palestine (successfulsocieties.princeton...)
“A Plan for Peace in Gaza (www.foreignaffairs.com/israel...) ” by Salam Fayyad
Book Recommendations:
Why Nations Fail (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson
The Arabs (www.hachettebookgroup.com/tit...) by Eugene Rogan
On The Trails of Mariam (nadiaharhash.com/books/on-the...) by Nadia Harhash
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-....
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero.
People misunderstand that when he resigned, they said to him out of respect for his courageous personality, "You're Fayyad".
Isn't that from Orange Don's the Apprentice? 🤔
His name is Salam. That's already a good start.
Salaam-Shalom
@@SuperMCFIVE yup. That's where the word comes from.
What about aggression by Israel. Why do we expect everything from one side and don’t ask other to back down.
Isreal withdrew 2005 , including forcably removing all the illegal settlers . What happened is Hamas , took over a forming government by violence and and have been running it ever since , obviously not with a clear plan to stop killing people and get on with government.
Because if Hamas and Fatah laid down arms the war would be over and if Israel laid down arms the Israelis would be massacred. Have you ever heard about Oct7?
Israel has to release Marwan Barghouti, let him take over the Palestinian authority and then start negotiating with him. That's the only hope they have for a future without Hamas in charge of the Palestinian side.
Why would a convocted terrorist be any better?
No ! Palestinians need to be free to choose, and that starts with acceptance of Israel as their neighbour, and banning of extreme parties in both countries.
Why? He murdered personally multiple people, does not recognise Israel, supports Hamas and calls for a 3rd violent intifada.
This was fascinating 😊
Wow. I am so impressed. And hopeful. Your podcast is really one of the best. 🙏
NYT no longer holds any credibility for many.
That's okay! The NYT, much like the Ivy League Universities don't really care. They're all quite well financed.😊
To reveal all comments - sort by "newest first".
🎉🎉🎉
Does Hamas want a 2 state solution?
Though the Israeli prime minister dismissed this at the time as an attempt by Hamas to “fool the world”. Since the latest conflict began, Hamas leaders have taken a harder line in public, now explicitly calling for the destruction of Israel (and therefore openly rejecting a two state solution).
Has Israel ever accepted a two-state solution?
Israel. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly and emphatically rejected a two-state solution.
Not a fan if hamas ir any Islamist grouo. Though Hamas agreed in two state solutions on 2017. But Israel denied every political and peaceful approach for the palesistinans to have their kwn state in every mean. They have even Killed any Israelis and jailed them who would think of outside the rqdical ethnic cleansing idiology stream.
And is not calling for the destruction of another state "genocide" ?
Maybe Netanyahu didn't, but Israel has been open to the 2 states solution since it's conception.
@@Thenoobestgirl So open to the solution that it keeps building illegal settlements in West Bank!
Rabin's 2 state solution was not an actual state for Palestine, but the regurgitation of Begin's autonomous regional Palestinian areas. He has been quoted repeatedly after the Oslo Accords stating he's done everything he can to ensure there will not be a Palestinian state.
Even the US and EU vision of a Palestinian state today is essentially making permanent the current apartheid system.
You'd be completely shocked by the various ways and ideas Israel has tried to find ways to exclude Palestinians from any form of power in the occupied territories, and keep refugees out of Israel.
Been looking forward to an interview with Fayyad on this show. Finally, a Palestinian leader who seems to actually know what it takes to get them moving forward instead of just being stuck in the injustices of the past.
He is more than a decade out of the PA government. Unfortunately, not too relevant today.
@@constantineblyuz5786 Yeah, I wrote before I finished the video thinking he might be making some kind of comeback. That doesn’t appear to be the case, or at least there isn’t any indication as such in this interview. Shame.
“Stuck in the injustices of the past” Is the premise of the entire religion of Judaism. The innocent people of Palestine are experiencing a Holocaust encouraged by all “free countries”. Free Palestine from the River to the sea.
Some people expect me the Palestinian..to approve those who replaced and dispossessed me.
Sir or Madam... do u have any idea how untethered u are... from Palestinians and Israelis are now or twenty years ago?
@@AbuSous2000PR You sound pretty angry. What do you find so objectionable. You know nothing about me, so I can only assume my original post causes problems for you. Why?
THE PA NEVER RECOGNISED ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE ONLY SS A STATE OF ALL ITS PEOPLE
THIS IS AN IMPT DISTINCTION. FOR THEY KNOW ONLY TOO WELL THEY WOULD BE BEHEADED HAD THEY SAID "THIS IS THE LAND OF THE JEWS".
It seems that if Hamas would hand over the kidnapped hostages and give up their arms, they could greatly benefit the Palestinian Nation, don’t you think so? The war would end and Gaza could start to be rebuilt. But it does not seem that Hamas really cares about the Palestinian people, it has other more profound goals.
Yes, this.
Imagine the same comment, but at the beginning it says "it seems that if Israel would remove the settlements from Palestinian territory and leave the Palestinian territories all together, there could finally be talks among equal parties and maybe even peace.
@matangox That would be a fantastical position not at all grounded in reality. Hamas' position is that Israel can no longer exist.
You can see why this would be untenable. False equivalency.
Why should Palestinians be excited about rebuilding Gaza for fanatical religious Israeli settlers? The interesting thing when rebuilding Gaza in America's conversation is that it asks for input from everyone except for Palestinians. Imagine the West deposing Bibi and those other racists and installing a " better government to release the hostages ". None of you would agree with that, however much Israelis supposedly want Bibi gone.
@@matangoxThere was attacks on Jews before 1967 going back to the 1880s. Why does a Palestinian state have to be Jew-free? There are 2.1 million Arab citizens in Israel. 1.8 million Muslim citizens.
ezra good dhimmi klein
... corruption from top to bottom
.... give us more money
and this guy was the Finance Minister ...
Important conversation. So much wisdom here.
In a committee of the Israeli parliament in 1983, General Rafael Eitan boasted of his triumphs on the West Bank saying "All the Arabs will be able to do is scuttle around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle".
The insect metaphor sounds like it may have been dusted off by a well-known and well-loved Pulitzer prize-winning columnist writing exactly one week ago from an office not a million miles from Ezra's...
Lmao you should listen to an hour long Arab TV segment and what they say about the Jews, Israelis and Arabs are subjected to different moral standard in racism
@@Ihatehandlesfashyyoutube It seems you neglected to read the second half of my comment. Unless you can point to examples of the racism you rightly abhor making it onto the pages of the august "Newspaper of Record" under the byline of an opinion-writer who is afforded near-universal, sycophantic deference.
@@Ihatehandlesfashyyoutube BTW great to hear you understand Arabic. While reading it, don't forget to process the text from right to left. Otherwise you may get things backwards.
I'm guessing you never read Animal Farm, you must be poorly educated
@@Agtsmirnoff "I'm guessing you never read Animal Farm, you must be poorly educated"
All of Eric Arthur Blair's books are equally good. But some are more equal than others.
When Jews like Ezra Klein can run for Palestinian public office then I'll take seriously his pretension to being able to "build a Palestinian state." Until then he can screw off. But i always liked Salaam Fayed though. He's serious but Mahmoud Abbas is a clown. So are all the Fatah political leadership, assuming any others still exist.
Fayad has never had more than 2 percent support of the Palestinians. Terrorist Barghouiti in jail has majority support because every poll in the west bank shows over 80% of west bank palestinians support terror massacre october 7th and the west bank palestinians always poll that none of the hamas attacks were on civilians- so i giess ezra wants barghouti the terrorist in jail now should be head of the palestinian state.
😂
😂😂😂 Utopian fantasy!
This is the solution that seems to be the only one that will work . If the self-built state would be so strong that the security questions would be answered because the Palestinians would have too much to lose to go rogue.
Horsefeathers. That's what they thought about Gaza. The Arabs can never be trusted to act peacefully or rationally..
there was a persistent rumor a long time ago was that as a young young man Abbas was a membert of the Bahai faith. That he believed in politics and so he turned in his Bahai ID card and the rest is his history as a politician. There is no way to want to prove this rumor, as it could prove his assassination. I still believe in that rumor
Four proposals of one state solution
Palestinian one state
Unitary one state
Confederal proposals
Israeli assimilation
Al Sharq Strategic Research
A think tank that looks to undertake impartial,
rigorous research to promote the ideals of democratic participation,
an informed citizenry, multi-stakeholder dialogue, and social justice.
Waste of time, 0% chance it happens
@@Agtsmirnoff”if you will it, it will not be a dream”
I assume Israeli assimilation will be driven by hamas' charter and Palestinians objectives of a Sharia state.
@@evamurray2564 In Israel
In July 2014, during operation Protective Edge an Israeli-Arab Christian demonstration was held in Haifa in a protest against Muslim extremism in the Middle East (concerning the rise of the Islamic State) and in support of Israel and the IDF.[40]
Christian Arabs are one of the most educated groups in Israel.[41][42] Statistically, Christian Arabs in Israel have the highest rates of educational attainment among all religious communities, according to a data by Israel Central Bureau of Statistics in 2010, 63% of Israeli Christian Arabs have had college or postgraduate education, the highest of any religious and ethno-religious group.[43] Despite the fact that Arab Christians only represent 2.1% of the total Israeli population, in 2014 they accounted for 17.0% of the country's university students, and for 14.4% of its college students.[44] Christians are proportionally more likely to have attained a bachelor's or higher academic degrees than the Israeli national average. Christian Arabs additionally have one of the highest rates of success in the matriculation examinations, (73.9%) in 2017[45][46] both in comparison to the Muslims and the Druze and in comparison to all students in the Jewish education system as a group.[47] Arab Christians were also the vanguard in terms of eligibility for higher education,[47] and they have attained a bachelor's degree and academic degree more than the median Israeli population.[47] Christians schools in Israel went on strike in 2015 at the beginning of the 2015 academic year in protest at budget cuts aimed at them. The strike affected 33,000 pupils, 40 percent of them Muslim. In 2013, Israel covered 65% of the budget of Palestinian Christian schools in Israel, a figure cut that year to 34%. Christians say they now received a third of what Jewish schools receive, with a shortfall of $53 million.[48]
The rate of students studying in the field of medicine was also higher among the Christian Arab students, compared with all the students from other sectors. The percentage of Arab Christian women who are higher education students is higher than other sectors.[49]
In September 2014, Israel's interior minister signed an order that the self-identified ''Aramean Christian'' minority in Israel could register as Arameans rather than Arabs.[50] The order will affect about 200 families.[50]
The first local woman cleric ordained in the Holy Land was Palestinian Sally Azar of the Lutheran church in 2023. Wikipedia
@@Agtsmirnoff I should happen; the Jews have forfeited any sense of legitimacy to live in that region. There's nothing the world needs from Israel.
I don’t really think any 2 state solution can work if Israel continues to be a state that codifies Jewish supremacy. Israel must cement itself as a secular democracy or it will continue to devolve further into aggression and paranoia. It seems as though Palestinians and Israelis are so intertwined with each other, so fueled by hate and vengeance, so traumatized by the other side, at this point the only solution I can imagine is some sort of effort at unification. The Good Friday agreement comes to mind as a blueprint. If that means the effective “end” of Israel so be it. The Zionist project is clearly failing anyway.
I dont mean to say that issues only exist on the Israeli side, Hamas no doubt will also undermine any peace process. However, expecting Palestinians to reform their government in the midst of bombings and famine is naive to say the least.
@@camcaasi2685
They're not expected to reform, they're expected to surrender.
But all the Arab countries can be Theocracies, and Arab-centric?
@@shainazion4073Arabic is a language and anyone can speak it. Islam is a religion and anyone can follow it. There is so discrimination on any level here.
@@yusefkhan1752 I mentioned Nothing about the Arab language. There is No discrimination in Arab countries? Who are you kidding?? Iraq, Nigeria, Syria, Lebanon,.... etc
i love the gall of these men blaming the Palestinians for Israel's genocide. Unforgiveable and unforgettable.
There has Never been a genocide of Palestinians. If Israel wanted to Genocide the Palestinians, the IDF would not have made hundreds of thousands of phone calls, left phone messages, text messages, dropped flyers in Arabic, and set up information on Social media, as well as used their own forces to clear a humanitarian corridor leading to the South.
There was about 20,000 bombs dropped by Israel and about 26,000 killed, with about 9,000 combatants in the figures. That is 17,000 civilians dead for 20,000+ bombs dropped in a densely populated Urban war zone. That means there is less than 1 civilian dead for each bomb dropped in a densely populated Urban area. How is that a genocide.
Look up what the term genocide means, genocide needs intent. There was never the intention of killing every Palestinian. Israel could have easily done this at any time.
*Genocide?*
*_"The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group"_*
There has Never been a genocide by Israel on anyone. The Palestinians killed as the result of wars that they started, are not victims of genocide. The millions killed in Japan when the US dropped atomic bombs in WW2 are victims of genocide. The 1 million Armenian Christians murdered by the Turks are a genocide. The 800,000 Tutsi murdered in Rwanda are a genocide.
People who were killed in wartime by warfare are not victims of genocide, unless specifically targeted for destruction, which Israel has never done.
*Please buy a dictionary! Google is free!*
So unfair that Hamas' genocidal intent 4 months ago and since didn't lead to a peaceful Israeli response, right? Cry harder.
This is all part of the main problem: People from the outside trying to impose a solution on the Palestinians, including token people like the guest.
@@creativestudios3d”token people like the guest” is a hilariously deceptive framing of things lol.
HE IS RIGHT. NOT OSLO NOR ANYTHING BEFORE IT TALKED ABOUT A PALESTINIAN STATRHOOD SINCE ONE WAS ALREADY IN EXISTANCE, NAMELY JORDAN, ONLY ABOUT AN EVER FULLER AUTONOMY FOR THE HYBRID THAT IS THE PALESTINIAN SOCIETY. NOT RABIN NOR PERES EVER WANTED TO GIVE UP A CHUNK OF THE LAND OF THEIR ANCESTORS TO A NEW AND FABRICATED ENTITY SECURITY AND THE MINUTENESS OF ISRAEL ASIDE.
Indeed ! The powers that were in control at the time made the split. It's no good bemoaning the present day British or French governments ! What set the Arab Palestinians off to a bad start was, initially, poor leadership under Al Husseini, a rabid Jew hater who fully supported Hitler's plan to annihilate the Jews. Fundamental was their "all or nothing" stance, from day one, all the way through to the three "Nos" of Khartoum and continuing. The Jews reluctantly accepted their portion and created Israel. Many peoples have been displaced all over the world - look at the Germans and Polish after WWII. the difference is that they never became refugees and basically got on with their new lives. Given that the Arabs were apportioned Greater Palestine (look at the map) which was Jordan, Lebanon and Southern Syria, they potentially had the better start. Had they done so, Palestinians would have been assimilated into those countries - Zuheir Mohsen of the PLO admitted this : "The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese", though Palestinian identity would be emphasised for political reasons. In a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw he stated that "between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons"...
WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING
@@Thenoobestgirl It is easier for me to write in capitals. I think my message is important.
WHEN YOU HAVE READ ALL MY COMMENTS BELOW YOU WILL UNDERSTAND JORDAN'S ANXIETY TO SET UP PALESTINIAN STATE, FOR ABDULLA'S JORDAN IS SUCH A STATE, ENCOMPASSING 77% OF THE GEOGRAPHIC AREA CALLED PALESTINE; ISRAEL, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, INC THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, COMPRISES THE REST 23%.
GET REAL. READ ON MY COMMENTS BELOW.
Israel is Judea and Samaria, with Jerusalem as its eternal, undivided capital. Come back to the discussion when you have found an Arab state that will accept Jews and divide its capital between Muslims and Jews ...?
Zuheir Mohsen of the PLO : "The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese", though Palestinian identity would be emphasised for political reasons. In a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw he stated that "between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons"...
ezra good dhimmi klein
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