How SWORDS HANDLE / Feel in the Hand Vs a STICK!.....
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- When we express how swords 'handle', what are we actually comparing to? Some thoughts he about how sticks are a common analogue for how weapons of leverage feel in the hand.
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We should totally talk about Sicilian bastone fighting some day :)
Do I smell a crossover?
@@Vlad_Tepes_III I'm probably One of the slowest youtubers on the face of the Planet at getting collabs done but Hey! I'm Always Happy to work with proficient people like Mat.
@@metatronyt I have been hoping you would get around to talking about Sicilian martial arts for a while now.
@@metatronyt Well, you've done it before (I believe), so why not again?
And Venezuelan (Caribbean) those are interesting as they were partly the practice version of swords and machetes.
I take this video as proof that we were all correct when we saw a stick and thought "That would make a good sword!"
Indeed!
Yeah, fighting with stick swords basically describes my childhood.
Maybe the first ever idea for a sword was, after metallurgy began, someone thought to make an extra-powerful stick out of metal.
A sword is nothing but a sharp stick 🤷🏼♂️
"Typical Garden Machette" should be your first album of weapons based ballads.
And he should hire Danny Trejo to stand in a garden holding a watering can for the album cover.
@@a-blivvy-yus Great idea!
I find it really interesting that so many people are biased toward hilt-heav swords. As you mentioned, there are advantages to having the weight higher up the blade, but for a long time I couldn't articulate why. I spent a lot of time training with people who insisted on using swords with a balance point at or near the guard, and I was told that was the "proper" balance point and any sword balanced otherwise was poorly made - but that always felt "off" to me. I consistently performed badly when learning to fight with these swords, and I had a sense that the balance of these weapons, as right as it was for other people, wasn't right for me. I rematched when I got a more blade-heavy weapon, and "magically got better overnight" by using a weapon that would be worse in their hands.
People like hilt heavy swords due to the ease they can be moved quickly...looks flash...good for re enactment. Not so good for armed battle.
10th and 11th century swords were heavier towards the tip....designed to fight against mail .Earlier swords with more pommel weight were fast and agile...but hit with less force...ok against unarmed peasants...big angry bloke in battledress and mail not so much . migration era swords again tip heavy...designed to be brought down on top of head....so it seems that weight distribution preferances has varied over time...a gladius would be quite tip heavy...and those greek bronze girders they called swords....and those egyptian curved tip thigs...must have been very blade heavy.
just a thought
Skol
Wulf
@@marcoftheshaw There are valid advantages to both balance points, it's just that my personal preference seems notably different from most, and I find it interesting :)
@@a-blivvy-yus I have to agree with you about advantages to both balance points.
I too like to train with a blade heavy sword and would definately prefer one in actual battle (unless i could get my mitts on an ulfbehrt).
a badly aligned cut with a light blade and it could bounce out of your hand...without injuring opponent....a tip heavy blade will break bones if not cut....therefore more dependable as a weapon.
As our friend in the vid says...springy little thin blades do little damage.
Those battle of hastings era swords...the start of diamond cross section tip on an otherwise viking style sword...just heavier to smash through mail to get to the soft gooey bits...a light springy sword there is a bit like attacking a tank with a penknife....or a stick....ineffective ..and pointless...(pardon the pun!)
Skol
Wulf
Great analysis overall. The part about rotational inertia around the center was especially interesting. Cheers!
I had taken eskrima for many years and had been told the stick was a stand-in for the blade. Then I spent a summer clearing Douglas Fir saplings and gods-please-damn Scotch Broom with a machete. Cutting them, limbing them and getting branches and vines out of the way with one machete and cutting them with the other to clear trails. The It wasn't just the different torque between a stick and a blade that was different. It was edge awareness, a non-round handle, and the difference between drawing or slicing and thumping. My blade work was improved more by that than by hours and hours of seminars. It didn't just affect my FMA. My European and Indonesian blade work also benefited tremendously.
And, of course, our arboreal past subjected us to millions of years of pitiless natural selection that evolved our hands to be able to strongly and deftly grasp sticks. The ones who couldn't fell out of the trees and died. These days we stand still and swing the stick instead of the stick holding still while we swing from it, but the biological machinery is still firmly in place. The stick really is the fundamental non-projectile weapon.
my "basic" sword trainers, for kids & overly energetic army buddies, is either 1/2 inch PVC pipe what has been crushed a little (2 flat sides) or a dowel that I hit briefly on 2 sides with a belt sander. Yes they are shit, yes they break easy, but at ~0.15 USD each, it beats letting those heathens break my expensive shit.
Matt, have you ever read a book called The Filipino Martial Arts by Dan Inosanto? It's been out of print since the 1980's and the last one I saw (used) on Amazon they were asking $450 USD for it. I have seen some pdf copies online though and it's actually the only book I've seen that you could actually learn a martial art from. Inosanto argued that once you've learned the basics with stick fighting that the foot work and angles of attack will make learning bladed attacks much easier.
there are certain concepts shared among all martialarts. such as understanding reach or how to move without telegrafing. how to break or counter your oponents posture or the concept of tempo. what he said was not wrong but it's also correct viceversa. it's not a perk of learning his system but that of almost any system
Oh, I recognize that name. Dan Inosanto was one of the students of Bruce Lee!
This seems like the perfect opportunity to talk about sword dynamics; about the mass distribution and pivot points. But aside from a few mentions years back, no one talks about it anymore, even though it's super useful.
Excellent video Matt, when I train with a Jo, I can train sword and spear with the same stick. I find top heavy weapons, axe etc more difficult to replicate with alternatives, due to the momentum but just as importantly, muscle, tendon and skeletal development. I also think that training with a sharp weapon adds another aspect mentally. Stick training is great as a stand alone art or for practicing sword if one keeps in mind that every time you hit yourself with the stick, that could have been a sharp edge. I guess, always practice with the purpose in mind, if your using a stick as a stick, that's great, if your using it as a sword, imagine and believe it's a sword.
I have a hell of a lot of training with primarily four types of "sticks" - varieties of police batons - first was the standard US Army Military Police Baton, very similar to a Bobby Stick, about two feet long, with a shaped handle at one end, second it's replacement - the ASP or Monadnock expandable batons, which is more or less a steel equivalent, third one I trained on was the PR-24 (viewed as the "classic police baton" in the US) - and it is really just a hard plastic tonfa, and I have trained with the riot baton, which is much longer than a belt carry baton, and used more like a tipless spear, in conjunction with the riot shield.
I can use all of the types with proficiency, but I prefer the PR-24/tonfa for handling purposes, however as stated - there is always a trade off, and the side handle makes for awkward carrying - which is part of the reason the PR-24 is much less popular than the expandable baton (ASP, etc) these days. The other reason being, the PR-24 has a *notorious* reputation in the US from the Rodney King incident, now almost 30 years ago.
Riot batons are approximately "walking stick" length, about four feet. Too short to be considered a "staff" but far too long for practical, everyday patrol carry.
What I like about sticks, is that they do not have to be indexed to an edge like a sword, so it can be advantageous when people are expecting you to use "sword like" movements - and you come at them from a completely different angle.
It's funny, nothing really changes over time as much as we think things have changed. Today's modern equipped riot response officer, is more or less equipped, trained, and used, like a Roman Legion formation - our training even directly acknowledges it with movements like the Phalanx used to break apart riot hotspot, and different marching techniques (like echelons) to move the crowd in the directions we want them to go.
Hey Matt, hope you are doing well! This video raises a point of debate I've had with Star Wars for a long time. Do you think lightsabers should have 'weight' to them? Certainly the props do when the actors fight. If a lightsaber didn't have weight or balance at the hilt, how would people be able to duel with them? Would be really interesting to hear your thoughts on it in a video one day!
I have done a few vids on this - if you search in my videos I hope you'll find some answers.
This is the first time I see anybody talking about the benefits of rotational inertia of the crossguard. I believe it is even more important than its protective quality, because more knights were wearing hand protection, more the crossguards became even longer, so it wasn't purely a matter of protecting your hand, but how handy the weapon was. Sticks are too light though, they need to be much thicker than blades to provide the same impression or be made of extremely heavy wood.
so the dao handles like a dowel :)
They handle similarly in the mouth too...
That's a daoel
@@oldschooljeremy8124 or a dhal/dahl
@@a-blivvy-yus that's what she said
@@Almosteasyese Someone had to say that, didn't they? xD
I don't think I've ever seen you handle so many different swords in one video, very enjoyable!
Try it with a traditional walking stick with the curved handle. If you hold it at the end near the handle you get a point of balance very close to the hand. Hold it by the other end and its balance is more like a light axe or hammer. It's very noticeable how it swings differently in your hand.
Can't wait for the Soaring Sky review, Matt..if you're planning to do one in the future
Thanks - I am.
That's my pick up line for the ladies "We are gonna talk about my humbe stick !" 😂😂😂😂
Last time I was this early Matt was uncomfortable with the innuendo.
Sticks are great! Thick, heavy sticks are clubs. Very long pointy sticks are spears. Light pointy sticks are javelins. Small, light, pointy sticks are arrows. Bendy sticks with string are bows. Hoorah for sticks!
Layered sticks are shields. Sticks with glass stuck in them are macuhuitls.
In my homeregion in Southwest Germany, it was in rural areas in 70s/80s rather common, that in old houses some thin sticks (Stecken) , hazelnut or blackthorn, had been placed near the backdoor.
@@nevisysbryd7450 Heretic! Go not the way of the plank, for the splinter can pierce the finest mail. Oh, sorry, that's an entirely different channel.
Funny that you post a video about this subject since for the past couple of months or so, I've been carrying a pair of rattan escrima sticks with me on my nightly walks around the neighborhood. I find that I naturally tend to hold them very close to the bottom and in a saber grip. I also hold them in the same way pretty much all of the time with a defined top and bottom of the "blade" because the sticks aren't perfectly straight and have a slight curve to them making them sort of like short, guardless sabers. Which is perfect for me since I really want to learn military saber some day.
Excellent. As wood mock-ups go I was thinking during your exposition of the movie Excalibur. Patric Stuart was wielding a blunted wooden lance balanced towards the ends.
I want to acquire, or if feasible fabricate one.
Hi Matt, I was just thinking this morning that you should do a video for those of us that can't get to your classes due to Covid (in my case) or those far away on basic sword exercises using a stick or something similar!
The sabre tooth certainly had it stuck to it with the 'humble stich.'
Huh, a real synchronistic video, Matt. I had just finished reading this pdf about the mechanics of using a weapon armor.typepad.com/bastardsword/sword_dynamics.pdf (can be viewed in browser). It's from 2002 and the mathematics is pretty easy to follow when it goes into it since it's really talking about inertia, momentum, and how different sizes and mass distributions affect the way a weapon moves and functions. I will say that I think the writer got too "lost" in the maths without enough real-world discussion but that's always a potential issue when reading research papers.
Anyway, great video. I would never have thought of using a stick but your explanation really highlights how doing so can give a novice the basic understanding of how a different weapon can move.
Thank you! I'm reading it now and sent the link to Matt via Patreon. It'd be fascinating to get his take on this research!
PS: What a fun community this is.
@@jamieg2427 You're welcome and I'd love to know what his thoughts are on it. Thanks for passing it on to him.
I’m more interested in learning wtf you did to your del tin spadone - the crooked hilt in the background has been bugging me for a LONG time, and it sounds like you managed to break something in it lol
It was slightly bent when I got it - but I paid very little for it luckily! It's been very useful for videos. The rattle is the loose guard, which basically all Del Tin swords get because the wood they use for the grips is too soft and the guards aren't forge-fitted to the tangs as they should be.
@@scholagladiatoria ahhhhh, I see. Plan on fixing it at all? Or Perhaps look into getting a new one?
Thanks for that.....I can't unsee it now, and you have wondering the same thing :)
Maybe, you could talk about Shaped sticks/practice swords? Like the Boken swords of Japanese use. I am sure there are English/European equivilences over the years. Talk about the "Impact Edge", Like Jourge's "wooden sword" from the slingshot channel. These "practice swords" can be pretty deadly too.
Excellent video. Subscribed as of now.
Most Asian martial arts use sticks, especially Silambam, Silat and Kali. I trained in Silat. Depends on length, the application is actually the same with parang (machete), swords and spear. I don't recommend using medium length stick for sword movement it is because of the balancing, real swords are balanced. Unless the stick being shaped into the sword, it will be unbalanced and you can injure your wrist swinging it. But shorter stick is more suitable to apply parang movements, you can even use two sticks like Kali practitioner did.
it's not anything new, for centuries people have been using sticks to learn sword fighting. In all cultures.
Yep
@@scholagladiatoria you would believe me,if i said that,when i was young,i used to play swordfighting with a wooden sword,Matt?
A bit more explicit demonstration of where the center of mass of the example swords, and the stick, to help explain *why* a stick can be a good "feel" analog of many different types of sword would have helped a lot, I think, for those of us who have not held the variety of swords you have.
if we can't afford a sword and the stick is so similar... some stick training exercises would be wonderful.
A stick is a perfect answer for someone who wants to be armed but is worried about norms and laws.
Cant believe they haven't banned this yet. Only a matter of time before they are used to harm people!
Or if you are Miyamoto Musashi.
It used to be but depending on which nation you live, you may still find yourself being arrested.
You can also use well-made sticks for the purpose of weight training. Suburito and furibo for instance. Or even a kanabo made without the metal studs.
It's definitely for weight training, because we all know that hitting things with big bits of timbre isn't effective.
@@Meevious They're literally arresting people for saying words on facebook in australia right now. That's not the type of nation where anyone rational is voting lol. A nation if immature fearful kids voting for blankets. I know because I'm in Canada and the same thing is going on here now.
9:59 it made a shhhhing sound :P
one reason for grasping the stick at one end is to prevent grappling and stripping it/taking it from you, no space for your opponent to grip it
seems like for the common soldier the truism "Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder" has always been true.
Mmh, took some time to say 'a sword is basically an evolved pointy stick.'
When I train I use my steel sabre but when I'm just lite drilling maybe hitting the bag I'll use my stick.
What, in your opinion, is an example of the best combination of hand protection and blade handling? That is, if you were designing the perfect sword?
'Can't we do something else for a change, Mr.Easton ?'
'Like someone who attacks you with a wooden stick ?'
'Wooden stick? Oh, oh, oh. We want to learn how to defend ourselves against wooden sticks,do we? Getting all high and mighty, eh?
Swords are not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad.
When you're walking home tonight and some homicidal maniac comes after you with a kriegsmesser, don't come crying to me!'
'sallright, I got a plum
Thank you Matt.
Do you prefer bare hands over gloves/mittens?
Some athletes, chefs want to feel with their hands. Musicians never use gloves.
Do swords move more quickly through the air in the cutting direction because of the blade, than a stick?
I love this Brazilian nut pommel terminology, because it's so obviously modern...
Why not just get a curved stick :p tree limbs rarely grow straight without any taper. Great video Matt.
These ancient swords seem really practical for defense.
hey,a Campbell here
but i would not use a two handed swords,they look heavy and cumbersome
@@maximilianolimamoreira5002 Context! They're great for guarding narrow passes. You can use your surroundings, like a doorway, or fences, as defense, while you just bash through spears and shorter swords from a long range.
So can we have the dimensions and material of the "simple stick"? 😉 48" or 60"? Pine or larch? Hand carved with a spoke shave or turned on a lathe? 🙃 Maybe I'll just "stick" to a slightly sawn-off broom handle 😁
Good video, but one question: is your stick better than bacon? 😛
cant see it to clearly, but how are you liking that soaring sky han jian?
Matt can someone if skilled enough, use a stick to parry and defend and possibly unarm a opponent using a bladed weapon such as a sword?
Yes absolutely
donatello can.
xxvipxx I suppose god ninja turtle skills not with standing
Great White that’s crazy I know not all swords are equal in durability but still impressive.
@Great White Wow, shattering swords? That really is truely impressive bullshido. The Filipino Kool-Aid is strong with you.
I would mess around with a broomsticks and doing so has made me come close to buying a Bo staff.
all this depends on how thick your stick is.
What's that thing that looks like a wooden Maori mere?
Pretty sure that's what it is
which was the first widely used weapon? a humble rock or a humble stick?
Heh. If I recall Matt's shot with sling is not as good as he would like. Something about a lack of practice.
And I may add, thrusting attack.
Yikes, a timely notification!😮
the feast is mine,yikes and away.....
Jogo do Pau...Portuguese Traditional Stick Fighting...Check it out.
What is your opinion regarding polypropylene training swords (such as those made by Cold Steel)?
These can be crafted to closely resemble the actual swords but often their dimensions are wrong and they're relatively light.
I can't speak for Matt but the general consensus is usually that the poly trainers aren't a great choice, but that doesn't rule out all plastic swords. Plenty of nylon trainers out there, and probably other materials as well, not to mention lots of different construction methods. Shouldn't be hard to find the usual suspects giving deep reviews of Rawlings nylon trainers, for example.
@@johnladuke6475 Thanks for the reply. As a novice, I have a Rawlings nylon Trainer but also several polypropylene "wasters" which only seem suitable for solo drills and pell work.
I did find this scholagladiatoria video about training swords: th-cam.com/video/GE01-JgekkQ/w-d-xo.html
and also this video by Skallagrim: th-cam.com/video/0D0R_DJhCW4/w-d-xo.html
Matt seems to differ in his opinion from Skall regarding Rawlings vs Purple Heart/Black Fencer trainers.
Matt prefers the former for beginners because they're safer and don't need as much protective gear but Skall feels they're too flexible which adversely affects sparring.
@@GonzoTehGreat Yeah, the usual complaint about poly in reviews is weight. Either for safety concerns, balance, or both. A poly sword with reasonably realistic balance and weight for the thing it's meant to simulate should do the job just fine for solo drills. But for sparring they seem to be a hospital trip waiting to happen - maybe even dumber than trying to spar safe with sharps. A nylon sword of any brand might give some nasty welts and bruises, but most poly models seem like they could break bones with ease.
We all started with a stick!
Matt should specify a stick length, diameter, and wood type and call it the "Easton" standard. See if it becomes the standard for sword review videos.
Ahh yes, the non-pointy stick!
Have you reviewed the Heavenly Horse dao yet? If so, I must have missed it.
It's coming up this week!
Pretty sure that was the heavenly dowel wasn't it? Ahuehuehue
I tried explaining to my friends the difference between sticks and swords and how it affects their use...they made fun of me and walked away. Yeah I'm fun at parties too.
The humble stick is the father of all pole arms in history.
So future review will have a "point of balance is here and it handles pretty much like a stick held at the 3/4 mark" or something? That could have value, for all of us sword interested poor people who can only afford a stick.
China and India has had some bad hand to hand combat with lives lost over border disputes. Always not dismissing the lives lost. The fights would gives us real good information on how combat of old was fought when lives were really being lost. That changes everything.
Stick? Fresh fruit not good enough for you eh? Well I'll tell you something my lad. When you're walking home tonight and some homicidal maniac comes after you with a bunch of loganberries, don't come crying to me!
I shall put my academic hat on for once. At the basic level there is physics, and then it becomes bio mechanics, but there are levels behind that which go into cognitive psychology and ultimately neurology. Interesting enough Engineer Ernst Kapp and media pundit Marshall McCluhan independently described the same phenomenon that has since been given credence from neurological investigation, that the brain assimilates any non biological extension within the motor homunculus and in effect it becomes a part of the bodies sensorium. That could be a hammer, a golf club, a tennis racket or of course a sword.
Could you point out a source for that? I would like to read more about it, especially from its neurological aspect. Thank you.
@@adlannur9350 Best thing I can do is give you a google scholar search URL as there is quite a lot of literature out there, you will University access for most of it though. scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=tool+use++%22fmri+study%22&btnG=
@@inregionecaecorum Hey that's good enough for me. At least now I got a pointer to search it further. Thanks!
So I'll say right out of the gate that single stick (rattan esp) feels nothing like a real broadsword or sabre. Super light. No inertia.
For a more complete description of what I mean (now that I have a moment to post):
The super light weight of single stick allows you to wield it in ways you can't with a real broadsword or sabre. With single stick I can stop a serious cut at mudpoint and redirect it to a new opening, whereas with a basket hilt broadsword it would take too long to muscle the extra mass to a stop and then get it moving in a new direction. It would be quicker to continue the momentum but alter it's direction, say with a moulinet (Roworth's cut 1 with recovery being a good example).
Maybe try a heavier stick...
There were bronze age rapiers!?
Don't get your hopes up - they're only the third best of rapiers.
@@kwanarchive Please explain, what are the first and second best?
@@johnhanley9946 Gold age and silver age.
@@kwanarchive Ha! Olympics joke! 🥇🥈🥉
Forget the sword reviews. Review a stick! : )
I believe he's already got a few videos reviewing test cutting with sticks.
He also did reviews of a few stick-like weapons in the past. Would be nice to see some more. He could stick to theme for a bit.
"Dao" and "dowel". Hmm...
Never been so early.🙂
Lightsabers are supposed to be heavy. No nimble sword handles like a lightsaber. vov
There's a difference between "heavy" and "has surprising weight to the blade" (the actual description). And people *imagine* lightsabers to be light simply because they are "light" sabers (as in photons without physical mass, or at best luminous contained plasma with near-zero mass, not the obvious pun).
Everybody knowns that staffs are sword-like weapons! /s rofl
Spear like lol close enough, it’s a knife on a stick lol just like arrows are longer thrown knives lol
Stick or wooden sword is not a sword - it felt wrong even on my first training, probably because of lack of mass. Mass though, isn't everything, I once knocked a man silly with a boffer - his just broke. And finally, if you drop your bastard and take a katana, it feels like stick.
Weight your wooden stick so it resembles a sword lol that also makes a much nicer club lol
@@widdershins5383 Why add weights to a stick, instead of taking a real sword, smartass?
@@tarapita were you not complaining about improper weighting when you were training? stick weights on the stick to make it a comparable to a sword while your training, so you dont necessarily injure the other person. i gave you an example of when it could be handy and you threw a fit lol fucking knob