Cutting Techniques & Muscle Use with Swords, Axes, Kukri, Knives etc
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ก.ค. 2020
- Looking at some of the different ways of cutting with swords, knives, kukri, axes, etc and how different cutting angles may deploy the muscles and body mass in different ways, with different advantages and disadvantages.
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A big biomechanical point that adds to the discussion:
Muscles have an optimal length where they produce the most force. If they stretch or contract beyond the optimal length boundaries, they start producing less force. For the peak muscle force at impact (and past impact), then, the elbow joint shouldn't be fully extended, and the shoulder joint shouldn't be too flexed (the upper arm shouldn't be too high, such as straight ahead, but angled down, as if you were keeping the elbow closer to the body).
However, it's all about whether you want the most force AT impact vs PAST impact. To get the tip to its fastest speed may require putting muscles beyond the range of optimal length. Faster tip = more force at impact. More muscle force (as mentioned above) = more force past impact (and also at impact, but a slower tip would counteract this to a lower total force at impact). For nimble swordplay, you want peak force at impact, and you don't worry too much about beyond the impact as you intend to quickly bring the weapon back for defence. For chopping, the most important part is what happens after the impact, so you want the muscles to be at the optimal length to produce and transfer the most force to the blow after the edge touches the target.
The force at impact vs past impact discussion, btw, is also incidentally why shorter weapons are better at chopping, despite longer weapons having faster tip speeds. As we know from mechanics, when you apply force to something, there is also a "negative force" applied back. When you hit the target, your weapon becomes a lever (negatively) transfering force back to your muscles. A longer lever will have more force AT impact (faster speed), but the negative force transfer will be higher and your muscles will be weaker, leading to a weaker force PAST impact. As such, the negative force will be much weaker on a short lever, and you'll be able to transfer much more force PAST impact, even though the force AT impact will be lower due to lower speed. Think of it this way, it's much easier to bash aside the tip of the weapon (long lever) than the forte (short lever).
This could also have something to do with what makes a kukri/forward slanted blade cut so well: the point of impact is a few inches ahead of where it would be with a more conventional blade, meaning the muscles in your body haven't quite stretched/contracted to their maximum extent, and therefore give a little more oomph to the hit after impact.
All true and I'd simplify that by saying that the optimal point for muscles and body structures universally coincides with the most relaxed 'mid-point' .. they are literally set up to work that way. In the case of the Kukrax it allows the 'bite' point to be brought closer to the relaxed centralised position of the wrist (the rest depends mainly on technique) meaning that you can keep the kinetic chain pushing through from the core and feet.
By contrast if you are flicking the weapon you initially develop momentum using the kinetic chain but at the extremes that momentum isn't linked to the core.
Edit:Typo
Also inertia. When Matt chops with an axe it seems very little muscle effort goes into compensating movement of his arm. Intended target would be hit before inertia kicks in because of the range of movement. I wonder what would put more strain and feel more tiresome after 100 cuts: cutting from the wrist or that round axe chop. As Matt said it not necessarily greater at chopping but the movement itself could give more buck for its money being efficient energy wise if not time wise. In many situations longer reach would be greater, in many situations less tiresome action could be helpful.
Great little thread going here. To add to the more force at impact Vs more force after impact discussion. This doesn't just affect cutting ability, but also cutting utility. Mainly being the difference in stopping power. Optimum force couples, a shorter lever and a softer impact reduce the chance of triggering the inverse stretch reflex which would force the muscles to relax/fail. This increased headroom before failure makes it possible to brace for impact before draw cutting, or strike/push the opponent back using your body mass whilst draw cutting.
This is actually how I was taught to draw cut. I was told to avoid using tatami mats for practice as they're more for practicing "clean" cuts which are undesirable in a charging scenario . The last thing you want is the dead weight of a full grown adult and their amour, flying towards you at sprint speed.
„They were cutting all sorts of things.“ One thing they didn’t cut were hardened steel plates. Take note Hollywood
Why cut them when you can effortlessly stab right through and out the other side?
@@hendrikvanleeuwen9110 No point in wearing physical armor at all. All you need is Plot Armor ™
one of the things the netflix marco polo show got right.
Chinese dao versus combination of mail and steel plates doesnt end well.
Led bars though...
@@rubbers3 There's a good reason no one made armor out of lead though - it's softer than your fingernails. :)
i really like that "let's talk about X and Y" before the intro, you can check if this is the topic that you are interested in within seconds
Matt Easton, carrying out cutting-edge research.
I've been looking at Charles Roworth's Art of Defence on Foot with Broad Sword and Sabre from 1798 for a while now, which has a very wrist-centric approach to cutting, and he does make a note that broadswords with complex basket hilts don't work with his system. An interesting point of contrast that I've also looked recently is Angelo's Infantry Sword Exercise of 1817 which is all in the elbow.
Maybe the complex baskethilts don't allow much wrist flexibility. And they may have been designed around a different undocumented system.
Video games should take notes on content like this, definitely want more HEMA representation
I agree.
Mr. Pants we just have to do what we can to demonstrate how cool HEMA stuff is and bring attention to it, I definitely enjoy doing this as an endeavor
@@knightshousegames I agree, it's a very hard work. Also I think that in some cases too much detailed control over main dummy (character) can make the game unplayable. Sometimes people want more details in the game and when it's added gets bored of quickly.
For Exemple:
"Oh nööö I wanna fight with eyh big swörd, I don wanna wrestle when a heavy armored opponent shöws up. Wreslin is böring, lock up on floor för eyh minute. It's eyh borin game, too manyh keys and combinationss "
:) or maybe it's just my imagination.
The way you use the kukraxe reminds me of how I was taught to use a hammer on a blacksmithing course I did. Instead of using your wrist and flicking it out, you use your shoulder and back to lift up your whole arm, and pretty much use the weight of your arm to strike down. It's far less tiring and doesn't strain your wrist or joints. It also allows for greater accuracy in the strikes, which sort of translates to the edge alignment point you mentioned.
From a very simplified perspective of this video: Weapons are extremely varied and were created to be handled in certain ways to address certain advantages or disadvantages within certain combats. So yes, there is obviously not one way to cut or use all weapons. I'm not sure why people would even assume that kind of a nonsense mentality.
More broadly, you would not use a rapier to chop saplings or branches when a falchion or kopesh-style blade would be way more effective. To cut a tatami mat, requires a narrowly specific style of blade to manage that, like common long swords, certain falchions, and of course katanas. To attack specific points using agility and precision is geared more toward the basket sword or rapier than a langmesser or greatsword. So, again, yes, there isn't one way to attack anything, each weapon type encourages certain attack/defense advantages depending on the specific scenario.
Coming from a Filipino martial arts back ground, there is a primary focus in short weapons. The most notable is the kris-style straight blade that is typically about 28 inches long in total. The particular style I studied, Pekiti Tersia, encourages the kukri axe form you displayed, where breaking the wrist is not encouraged and all movement is focused on the body and footwork. This helps maintain the form of the arms to remain in a very strength-based defensive shape while maximizing the striking motion by keeping the elbow locked between about 75 - 120 degrees. One generates the power and force of attacks and defense through manipulating the shoulders, body position, and body height. Analyzing what happens If one extends the arm beyond the 120 degrees causes the arm to be far more exposed to possible counter attack as well as severely minimize the effectiveness of strength, though point precision is very good here. Also, by collapsing the arm to less then the 75 degrees reduces the ability of strength to maintain distances and control of the effective striking range. This striking method is mainly used in close quarter combat as it helps manage distance while also maximizing a blades cutting effectiveness to use far more of the weapon through long circular slices. With the kris blade, those waves on the blade, in a long slicing arc, allow for much better cutting and slicing through clothing and flesh than a simple chop type strike you see more commonly in longer, straight European weapons.
When you break the wrist (extending the weapon forward by dropping the wrist downward from the rest of the forearm) then the motion encourages you dismiss the effectiveness of strength in form for agility and precision, which you see in two types of attacks, 1) a precise lunge that targets a specific point, like a kink in the armor or an exposure in a flesh target that might cause an impairment, or 2) a snapping form of an attack in which power is generated at the end most point of the weapon in a quick extended arc. This is great for hitting extended limbs like the wrist if it's not supremely protected or targeting straps of armor which one can especially effective at cleaving through them to weaken the opponents defense. Leather can be fairly resistant to simple slicing and cutting but a forceful snap can be similar to an axe on a chopping block. In many HEMA forms you see long arcing strikes which result in a small blade area striking or chopping against a target, and having a longer blade sees a larger striking surface, but I haven't seen many of these forms use long blade slices that maximize the whole of the blade, it's a more of a point strike or chop and is unlike how that talwar is using the whole blade.
Facing against a tatami mat encourages a very specific style of cutting and the use of certain styles of blades to more effectively make that cut. This doesn't translate to all situations. In other scenarios, other types of blades, or even completely different weapons, are preferred as well as the techniques behind it. Blunt or piercing weapons against heavy armored opponents, for instance. Again, it's why we see so many different types and styles of weapons, they each provide some form of advantage or capability that others don't. It seems weird that a community devoted to these kinds of weapons can't comprehend the variability.
When I studied eastern martial arts, my instructor was very strict on using the indian style draw/push cut to the flicking motion. He claimed the flicking motion led to lost power due to less stable structure.
Whilke true in my experience (cutting from the elbow does impart a more powerful cut), it sacrifices a lot of reach. In my personal experience (started in kenjutsu and sparred a lot with a high level shaolin guy, later sparred with an escrima guy), a lot of Asian systems do not put as much emphasis on reach as HEMA.
I remember when I switched to British saber (largely due to discovering Matt's channel years ago), the distance become much longer, and it took a bit of time to adapt.
I went back and sparred with a couple of my old kenjutsu buddies, using my practice saber against their bokken, and it wasn't really fair. They just couldn't conceptualize the longer range.
Depends on the sword and style, multiple Indian styles...
This is the type of content I love. trully interesting and thought provoking.
Thank you Mr Easton
I took some art classes and similar concept was applied there too...you can draw much straight and smooth lines if you keep your wrist locked, relaxed and draw from elbow. Also if intended drawing is tiny and small you can move your wrist freely and not draw from elbow
P.S Great Video : )
Sometimes you can have two different cutting methods with the same sword type, in the same region and time period. For example: recently, I've been working on some Japanese sword methods. Different schools of Japanese swordsmanship often differ substantially, despite the fact they were all using pretty much the same type of sword.
There are two prominent, different styles of the high-ready posture ("jōdan no kamae"). One version (meant to be compatible with a Japanese helmet) holds the sword nearly vertical with the hilt slightly forward and above the forehead. The other version is meant for unarmored swordsmanship and slopes the sword back at a substantial angle (the hilt is held at approximately the same spot as the first version, except for the difference in angle). The method to perform a vertical downwards cut from the first version makes the sword more-or-less fall into the cut, while the common method for the second version flicks sword forward, somewhat similar to casting a fishing rod, causing the tip of the sword to follow a nice arcing path. It's possible to use the first version of the cut with the second version of the posture, but trying to pair it the other way around just leads to an awkward, ineffective cut.
More than two really, for example with the Katti I use I can do casting cuts, draw slices and snap cuts. Same is true with Shamshir since they have a more open hilt construction...
I always love your videos that bring up the topic of biomechanics. The human body is made to move a certain way and it shows when a swordsman uses proper form for the weapon being used.
Excellent video sir. As a backyard guy figuring ot all out on my own, I learned quite a bit from this video...
Fascinating video!👍
Great video. Thank you for the content.
Great job!
My chiropractor( sports specialization), has spoken to me at great length about the importance of keeping a closed shoulder joint to increase stability and power in any activity. I 100 percent agree with this conclusion you have made.
Brilliant commentary and theory I am very eager to hear what input viewers have.
Great insights, great ideas.
First off, I think you're 100% right. Obviously we can't know for sure, but thank you for confirming my biased supposition haha. Secondly, I wanted to point out the way that competition Choppers move when they perform. It very much syncs up with the idea of utilizing the bigger muscle groups to effect a more adequate chop with less worry needing to be paid to facilitating momentum or keeping Edge alignment.
Discussing movement and orientation is a topic that should be often revisited. Please do another one. Maybe talk about "Tennis Elbow," and how to avoid or mitigate repetitive stress injuries when operating a weapon that requires impact to function. I do a lot of axe and knife work in the form of woodcarving, and good ergonomics is essential to being able to do it for long periods.
All of this reminds me of the series of videos you made 2 years ago about Waite's Treatise and body mechanics with Jim Good. To be honest - what it reminded me most of all was the *shoveling technique.* I guess now I need to rewatch all of those.
It would be interesting to see you using both cutting methods on each of these blade types.
Technique is the new context?
Funnily enough, I was thinking about something similar as I review Dao and Jian for Tai Chi and trying to figure out why I am doing what I do. Lot more "draw cuts" with the Dao than in Jian. And that there's a lot more emphasis on the sinking action than a Jian that seems to emphasize an accelerated tip to cut from further.
Of course, I am working from a weird Americanized, does lots of things with longswords perspective, and really need to find good replicas to test cut with to see if actually works, so huge caveats here.
There are just as many variations of dao and jian as there are in any other class of weapon and many different ways of using each of them. Techniques that work extraordinarily well for an ox tail dao will not work at all for a willow tail dao, etc, etc. As for draw cuts with the jian, they are legion, no less than with the dao just applied differently as it's a different weapon, please don't limit your use of the jian in that way or you will not be using the weapon to its full potential. When playing your forms with each weapon please try the variations that Matt outlines: rotate the weapon primarily from the wrist, rotate the weapon primarily from the elbow. I think you will find new paths of study in this way as no matter which version of jian or dao you favor there are many variations just from that alone.
In general jian cuts more from the wrist and dao cuts more from elbow and shoulder. You can especially tell after long practice sessions from which muscle groups hurt more. Of course, that's only if your form is correct
Early on Matt hypothesized that the short handle & confining pommel of the Viking sword might have been intended to promote the use of the draw cut. Later he found ways of positioning his hand to get enough room to extend the blade further out (casting). If the Viking sword hilt & basket hilt both encourage draw cuts this hints that a single system of use/training might connect the to, in an evolutionary line.
I'm tempted to take the underlying truth that it is difficult for people who practice/train/teach extensively with one physical technique to adopt a clearly distinct approach. In other words: it's far easier to learn a new skill if you don't have to unlearn a similar yet distinct alternative. And then go on to argue that the stability of a practice/training/teaching system tends to override and outlast minor variations in the design of tools/weapons. So the evolution of swords should be couched in terms our usage, rather than form. The DNA runs through the techniques more strongly than the technology. However, insofar as one must infer the techniques used, based on the form of the artifact, this becomes a rathe circular line of reasoning.
I am honored to be watching and learning from your posted vids.. A lot of learning and experience there.
Are there any records from people who fenced with Richard Burton, the explorer and bladesman? Sadly he didnt finish his treatise on sword as far as I can tell..
I personally would look further into weight and balance dynamics and it's effects on your bio mechanical movement in cutting movements. I'll say no more. Thanks for a really interesting vid again matt
Thank you for having read and considered my opinion.
The hammer fist action, is the most natural and instinctive movement a human under stress can make. We have a proclivity to smash(not poke or jab), basically because it's the simplest and most efficient way to deliver force in rapid succession with our arms. In my opinion it's also the safest way to strike things without taking unreasonable damage. Any design which accentuates a natural action we're all programmed with and which we're all built for has got to, by definition, be more efficient I would think. Maybe not the most effective in every situation but when it all hits the fan you can always depend on "hulk smash".
Regarding the kukrax: that's an interesting hypothesis. You could test it fairly easily by trying to chop some wood with a regular hatchet using the same body mechanics and comparing the results to the kukrax.
Even the recurve knives I have seem to cut "easier", I rekon because of how the target gathers behind the curve and as you cut it pulls the belly of the blade deeper through the target, well that and the body mechanics you mentioned.
I think you're right. Especially when you start to consider what material you're cutting. When you make a wrist cut you have a larger tip velocity while elbow cuts you have a lower tip speed but more mass behind it. When you're cutting an impact resistant material (something hard) you do best with an elbow cut, while a softer flexible material you need a higher cutting speed which a wrist cut would provide. Each is more practical than the other in its own context, and if that is considered then the fighting method adapts to the tool used, much like what you said the kukrax "forces" you to cut in its proper way.
I think it makes sense. My experience with body building says so, I have a smaller build and I usually prefer elbow and shoulder cuts. Those cuts are slow, my sword work is slow, but I like measured and determined swings. Basically control over speed.
Free play of the wrist and adjusting technique to accommodate the angle of the shaft are both important
-Matt mentions skinning a cat
-Cat Easton has not been seen in some time
DARNIT, MATT
Skinning cats requires a completely different blade.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot something tells me that different blade comes from Tod Workshop...
@@chengkuoklee5734 😂
IMO fencing in the style of George Silver was exactly that way, especially in Open Fight and Guardant Fight - to Cut with the Ellbow. That delivers much power into the cut and often overwhelms the guard / parry of the other fencer. I use this style of cutting with basket hilts with much succes, especially from Open Fight. The combination of Open with an Ellbow Cut delivers so much power that many fencers cannot defend against such hits and you cut straight through their parry. And even if they parry this delivers nearly always a good opportunity to go in infight and Close Fight because they are stunned / cannot free their sword and bring it moving fast enough again.
Wow that's interesting! I've wondered why so many short swords on effigies have baselard hilts. Maybe it's for this cutting motion.
I'd love if you did a video on how it feels to go against a longsword with, say, sword and buckler, and vice versa. What are the advantages of the person with the 2-handed sword? Of the person with two weapons? How does it feel in the bind? How effectively can the longsworder break the other's guard?
Great talk, with lots of information and things to think about. It was much to short for the size of the topic, though. There's hours or even days worth of material, there. That's not based on what I know about the subject, but on the number of things I now realize that I don't know. I believe I'm one of those Matt referred to, who pointed out the body mechanics of using the "kukrax", but, for now, I have nothing further to contribute, other than more questions than I can be bothered to type out...
Well, there's one thing. As a cat person, I can contribute this little tidbit: The funny thing about how a person skins a cat is that, regardless of all the many different ways it can be done, it's always done in exactly the same way that I'll skin the person, if I catch the person skinning a cat. A curious coincidence, that.
Ok I openly admit to not being any kind of sword cutter but I do use many different styles and sizes of blades for lots of cutting tasks. Listening to your description of the 2 techniques I believe that the elbow focused 1 is focused on tool like efficiency, like how a blacksmith sets his anvil to keep his swing at a very similar angle. Holding the edged item of choice in this position allows for easier use for extended periods of time.
Would help explain hammer grip usage on "Viking-Era" sword types. Brill. Thnx mate. Stay safe in StabbyLand...study that Ringen and dagger. I'm working on all that and Messer ;D
15:38 "and in some cases sticking the thumb up there ar..."
where are you going with this Matt?
"e treaties recommending..."
phew.
I thought that was going to be a bit risqué even for Matt.
I think thats true in some sense. When I trained cutting with finnish brushing tools and axes I found out too that the curvature of the blade truly affected the proper way and posture to cut with it. To be able to save stamina and cut more easily, you had to switch the way you hit wood with the arm and body when using differntly curved brushing tools, which most of the curve outwards at the end but some have a straight blade and some curve backwards a bit.
Hey Matt, what is your opinion on old swords and the M1909 Argentinian sidearm? Just got one and it seems very nice. Love the vids!
I believe the angle the edge impacts the target also plays a significant role in cutting ability. Edges that are cast far back or forward, automatically create a "guillotine" like shearing action. The edge of a guillotine is angled like that for a reason.
I think one often understated factor of weapon and tool design is tradition: It's easier to think of variations of what already one knows than to bring a completely new design. That could be why certain designs once popular in ancient times get "lost" and don't reappear until much later, when someone makes a new revolutionary design or adapt a foreign one. It also can explain why neighbouring cultures tend to converge on similar designs, too.
In the case of the Kukrax and axes, not using that curved design historically on axe-using cultures could be just because initially it was too difficult to get good curved handles consistently, sticking with straight ones for availability reasons and much later, when curved handles could be easily manufactured, nobody thought about doing it.
He matt I tryed this out and I noticed something if you keep your wrist loss your cuts are way quicker in movement but the follow through of the weight will face full ressistance of the target and almost nothing to fight back from your body. Sow all of the power is in the impacts and then get's lost. But If you keep your wrist stiff the impact will be a lot less powerfull cause you won't be able to cut at the same speed, but in the follow through your body is stiff like a board and all of the weight will push through instead of being lost in the resistance of your target. If you have a punshing bag try this make a fist but keep your arm loss then hammer slam it full power. Second make a fist and keep your arm and elbow stiff do the same thing. Which punch moved faster and impacted louder and which one moved slower but caused more movement in the bag. This probebly works the same with weapons one clearly just slams down on a target while the other hammers down on a target. Maby that's what causes the difference one just splits the thing in two with a extreemly powerfull impact while the other one just pushes the thing apart with force. One way of cutting is like a whip and the other like hammer both effectif in diferent way's.
Also going to throw in Chinese practice (taiji / wushu) in which sabre and jian practice is "all about" driving power up the legs through the hips, and *with the waist*. Lots of direction and technique in the wrist, but power comes from the waist.
It's much like when punching someone I'm the face ..Its always good to aim for the tree behind the head of your opponent,and pass your fist or palm through your opponent face to git the tree ..
The sweet spot meets the target ahead of the blow . The blow pushes the sweet spot on through
( thoughts on the shape of the kukri and body mechanics of the talwar palwar family of swords, and weapons )
For splitting firewood I've found it easier & less tiring to face the piece squarely, sinking with my knees right at the moment of impact. This allows the momentum of the axe to combine with the weight of the body for an easy, clean split. The only thing you need to concentrate on is edge alignment. With good edge alignment the axe wedges the wood apart along the grain making the piece just pop in two.
I teach both types. My influence is mainly Filipino Kali which that area of the world has a lot of Asian and European influences. One system in particular reinforces the 90deg of the wrist for the strong structure when meeting a strike. So the attack contains a defensive barrier to it.
We teach the “cast” not so much for the reach but for the ability to cover distance quickly. The weapon is projected tip first to quickly get inside or draw a reaction from the opponent.
As a thought on the kukraxe.
It does set a particularly forward from the center of mass location for the axe head. Setting the striking force in alignment with the strike; similar to how centered stabbing points translate the energy to stabbing vs off center curved points.
- Just for sending energy straight in instead of perpendicularly like a tulwar.
- Extra thought; could the contact be working a bit like accounts of tulwar giving point on horseback causing a double cut sawing effect through the movement?
- I wonder if someone would find something using high definition slow motion on the impact
From the curvature of the blade and the cutting style, I get the impression that the indo-persian style of sword fighting is optimised for infighting. Perhaps this is advantageous in tight formation fighting. It would allow denser formations and to some degree negate the advantages of other battlefield weapons, such as spears and maces.
If some knowledgeable person would care to comment, I would be grateful.
@Haider Ibn Akhlaq He didn't say that it was Indo-Persian in origin.
Matt, I bet if you reached out to the kinesiology department at your local university you might find someone who has studied this very issue. Lots of sports involve swinging a stick-like object at a ball/puck/shuttlecock/etc. I’d be willing to bet money that there has been at least a few studies on the biomechanics of striking things with bats/clubs/racquets/etc.
Logically, it makes sense that the basket hilt used the elbow as the primary joint of rotation earlier on, especially if you consider that Scots fought amongst each other quite a bit, so it would be baskethilt and targe against the same. And, as you know, the targe was normally held quite close to the body, unlike the buckler, so it implies a certain degree of expectation of getting hit with a shorter, stouter blow. Additionaly, the high degree of hand protection very much implies that the hand would be in a leading position, as the lock-wristed tulwar-like strike would be.
The Superdry shirt is back!
A possible scenario with, say, a sabre vs. sabre. You're looking to "throw the tip" when suddenly your opponent lunges/steps forward. So you change plans and "sink the hand" making it easier to keep your sword between yourself and your opponent's sword and add considerable force to your parry.
Can't comment on the bio-mechanics specifically, but I think you're right just due to regular mechanics/physics. Just by adding more of your body mass in the movement, F = m * a. More mass is more force (okay, it will translate to energy even if you stop accelerating, but it will translate to more energy either way).
Another aspect is angular speed/acceleration vs regular speed/acceleration. When you have a long object like a regular sized sword or an axe with a straight and longer handle, a cut done with more of the wrist works well in good part because the angular speed/acceleration of the tip is the same as that of the entire object, which means the tip is much faster/accelerating much more than your wrist in absolute values (m/s or m/s^2) simply because the length of the arc the tip makes in the same amount of time is bigger than that of the arc made by a point at the handle. This multiplies your force (it is a type of lever after all). With a short object, the absolute differences between the point of contact and the handle are minuscule, so you have got to compensate some other way. By locking your wrist, you move the point of rotation to your elbow, which increases the length of the thing being rotated (literally adding the length of your forearm) recreating some of that effect. That on on top of the aforementioned increase in the mass involved.
And of course, any benefit from the different musculature would only add more power.
Many of the American Ames versions of the 1796 LC saber have severly forward canted blades, illustrating these points.
You really mesmerize your public, cause nobody seem’s to noticed the moving (haunted??) sword in the background.... :)
now i can't unseen it
Most of us used to chopping wood with an axe, especially splitting, have learned to sink our weight, use our elbows, keep our wrists strong, and limited how much we use our shoulders. Overuse of the wrists leads to weak cuts and injury, overuse of the shoulder is simply tiring.
If muscle groups were the reason for Kukri chopping effected then you could use a hatchet with the same action to get the advantages.
The angle of the kukri gives extra leverage from the arm.
i will propose the argument that the shape is basically an accelerator lever, not unlike the siyah of an asiatic bow. it will accelerate the rotation somewhat ahead of the shaft, by rotating around it's center of rotation almost independently of the actual shaft rotation.
also the same principle used for lever delayed firearms like FAMAS, which by accelerating certain part of the bolt carrier group, it delays the whole bolt carrier, even when the total energy carried is the same
Indian footwork plays a very important role in our swordsmanship, and our kinetic linkage is usually superior to more linear styles...we use specific techniques to train them. Something I mentioned to you atleast a couple of years back. Attributes are important.
To be honest, I tend to cut with something that is a bit in-between the two. A lot of wrist play, but also drawing with the elbow.
When reach and finesse (war formation or in some, even light, armour) are less important, a powerful drawn cut is probably best. When dueling without protection, reach, speed , finesse and cover become more relevant.
In Fiore you almost always see the hands down after a hit or parry. To me this implies some power cutting motion more that wrist play. And this can be explained by the relevance of fencing in war and the frequent armoured fighting.
Later on as those two things become separate, first blood techniques become more and more prominent.
I believe the weight of the one handed tool and point of balance largely influences the technique or movement we understand to be effective, considering both the end result of the action and the energy required.
I think the forward blade angle causes you to engage more of the latissimus muscles, rather than your triceps and deltoids. Its more of a pulling down/in motion (like hammering) verses a flicking/swatting one (like casting a fishing rod).
Having used an axe to cut quite a lot of fire wood, and even bring down some trees, I can say that letting the wrist do much work would be a quick way to arthritis. Using an axe for wood the hand near the butt of the handle remains in one placeand the heavier muscles of the arm and shoulder are pulling the axe around and forward, the hand nearest the blade probably will start near the blade and slide toward the other hand guiding the axe blow and adding speed to the swing - cutting wood any way.
Here's my take on the topic (and it is merely additive to the points you made, not contradictory!): a non-straight blade swung in the natural arc of the arm will hit the target with the edge at an angle relative to the direction of the movement. This effectively reduces the angle of the edge geometry and "simulates" a finer edge that can dig into the target with less resistance. This applies to both forward- and backwards curving blades. To see why those behave completely differently, take a banana and slowly hit your finger with it curving fw and bw and follow through as if your hand had a lot of inertia. Curving backwards, the point of contact will immediately start moving around your finger and facilitate a long cut with increasingly shallow "slice angle" as the linear momentum gets converted into rotation. Whereas the forward curving banana blade will stay in contact with the same spot of the target during the follow through and additionally hook itself into the target against the curve of the swing.
I hope my metaphors helped you guys visualize what I'm talking about :D
a classical curved axe handle will do the same, same stiff grip and swinging from the elbow, literally just tested before writing this comment feels like what Matt describes. but i think a regular curved handle axe hits with more power since the head would travel a longer distance to target at a higher velocity, if you think about it its pretty genius whoever came up with it bent the handle one time for a stiffer grip, and a second time to straighten the overall line of the axe.
I wonder how much the material itself factored into the development of cutting style. Wootz steel, due to the impurity’s that created the beautiful pattern, could often break easily. A long blade with a strong curve didn’t put the same amount of shock on the steel with a draw cut as a somewhat straighter blade during a more chopping or casting cut. Interesting video, can’t help but wonder how much these factors influenced each other.
For the Casting the tip cut,simply call it the tap cut
not an expert in bio-mechanics or swords but the forward angle cut reminds me of the instruction for a powerful hook is keeping a bent elbow.
whilst a casting punch can and is effective (see fedor emelianenko and igor vovchanchyn); in boxing you see the stiffer bent armed hooks generating more torque which translates to the opponents jaw (see mike tyson).
boxing and sword-fighting have always shared commonalities so maybe there's something there.
Using a angeld hand is handel on a weapon, as with a "soft" weapon, it uses/agility "fighting" or figthingstyle like say "blunted" light longer handel jointed heavyer mace (0.5m) or big polaxed with a moving weight and (line placments) as bows/slings, arbalest, trebusches, nso.
In german academic fencing , which is cut fencing , the Korbschläger ( Korb- basket) is more common than the Glockenschläger ( Glocke- bell) .
Maybe in dueling, your intent is not to kill your opponent, only to "mark" him.
@@dougsinthailand7176 : The university students once used a smallswordlike weapon for fencing. In the 1820s ( 1830s ?) there had been a number of deadly incidents/ accidents so that the authorities in the german states wanted to forbid fencing for students ( in those days the students had not been liked by the authorities , because more and more students wanted democraty), and as a compromise a less dangerous fencing style was created. Up to the 1850 the students switched from thrust to cut fencing. The last deadly accident was in the early 1930s. So your comment is true, academic fencing is today a simulated/ritualiced duel.
With regard to the basket hilt, it probably has to do with how the weapon was being used. When a thrust is parried, it's easy for the blade to slide down and strike the hand. Likewise, while thrusts may be faster due to comprising a straight line, this also makes them more predictable than a cut and the outstretched hand makes a tempting target for the enemy compared to the relatively 3D movements of a cut.
The downward strikes using "elbow and shoulder" likely came from the need to close fight against armored opponents. The lighter longer wrist saber style was to get the added reach of forearm rather than locking it into the movement angle of the sword -- free movement was more prized, body armor had disappeared with early gun introductions, and lighter longer sabers offered an advantage.
Umm, replace "armor" with "shields" and we may have something here...
That is a nice basket hilt broadsword!
I think maybe it have to do with the weight of the sword in different age, the average low-mid end sword might be all a little bit heavier in earlier time, which make it more advantages to use the "draw cuts". Later when the lighter sword become more common, the flicking style become more advantages, and also at the later age, most of the people that you fight/sparring with will be using lighter and longer sword, which in a way make the flicking style even more advantages.
(opens a can of worms) Did Vikings use the draw cut as well? It would allow a "hammer grip", certainly as in tulwar technique.
Hello again...Matt,as per last nights comment my favourite armour is the English civil war thick leather coats, they are almost sword proof or are they?...when I cut up milk cartons I can get three cuts normally, usually they are pretty straight perhaps 15-20 degrees its usually on the backhand that I rise...cheers now
"Soft" armors like leather and gambesons generally seem to be quite vulnerable to thrusts, so I wouldn't call the buff coat "sword proof."
@@InSanic13 hello thanks for the reply...I get you, its not stab proof but its good against slashing, my original comment to Matt was regarding how a T-shirt may or may not affect a sword cut on a bottle, it doesn't of course T-shirts make crap armour...cheers now
Get two lengths of pipe and have one bent to resemble a kurkri. The try hitting a target with both of them. I have been working with a length of one inch iron pipe and was very surprised at how a shorter length of smaller diameter bent pipe felt in the hand.
That sword.....My gods its lovely. Then you break out the basket hilted beauty....Wow!!
There probably mix of various factor.. but physiological factor that lead to how we use our muscle.. definitely one of the biggest.
In unarmed martial art, we do lots of mental projection, like imagining the target is a inch further than actually are to increase the damage. Or how aikidoka, point a finger as mental direction..
This effect how we use our muscle.
Very interesting! Sounds like this theory could be informed by, or be an example of, J.J. Gibson's notion of "affordances" in psychology and design theory.
I think the difference of the English/French method vs the Middle Eastern/Indian method has to do with clothing. In the east they wear lighter clothing, and the Eastern method would give longer cuts, giving more grievous wounds. In the west they wore more layers, wool, thick overcoats, etc, so the longer slicing cut is less likely to get through all the clothing, while the chopping motion can.
Another tool with a forward curve is an ice tool (as opposed to ice pick) for ice climbing. I does swing a lot better than an ice pick.
yeah, it makes sense to lead with the pinky finger rather than the thumb when you have so much protection from the full basket hilt
I've heard you mention the Persian Shamshir...Shamshir just means sword in Farsi and so there are different types of shamshir, just as there are different types of sword in general.
I believe that you should look into physics for your answer for why having the blade in front of the hand is a better cutter. There are 2 concepts in physics that are applied here:
1. mechanical advantage
2. Since the blade of an axe is rounded, the target is always at a 90 degree angle perpendicular to the blade. So the maximum amount of force is used into the work.
So the weapon design decided the one suitable cutting method with it or could we apply different methods on to the same sword ?
For example if i used the cutting technique of the basket hilt with a talwar, would it give me the same result that i could achieved with the cutting method of the Indian ?
It really bug me alot because when i applied longsword cutting method on to chinese daos and japanese sword, it cuts wonderfully but when i tried to use the japanese method with a longsword, it felt really weird and screw up the cut really bad
M'lad this is truly a question of: captain context!!!
Love you babe. Never change.
It strikes me that somewhere to look for relevant insights would be research into the biomechanics of tennis. But I'm also thinking that there are likely to be sports scientists out there who would find this an interesting topic to research (I do also know someone from a military background who lectured in sports science for many years).
Here's a possible experiment:
Take the kukraxe and another axe with a similar blade length.
Then take a block of wood and place the bock on some kind of force-meter (or rather impact-force meter like those used in UFC punching tests, around $100 on amazon).
Strike the block with each weapon and see if the force-meter displays different levels of force with each weapon.
This should tell you definitively if the perceived difference in force is real or imagined.
This is a good idea, as long as you remember to collect many measurements for each. There is going to be a lot of human variation you need to average out. You would want to collect 5-10 samples from each of 5-10 people. Even more would be better. Given practical considerations it may not be possible to use that many people. This will give less reliable results, but would give some indication of the results.
See those warriors from hammerfell? Now they got curved axes... Curved. Axes.
After rescuing that stupid damn wannabe sneaking woman I always killed these guys because there swords are so weak and they ain't fitting into the whole scenery
@@shrimpysimon9424 maybe because theyre from an entirely different country...
Seems to be similar to throwing a hook or body shot in boxing. Keeping your hand and your elbow behind your body when throwing a hook gives much more power.
Another point to include in the context of fighting: the people who are fighting in hot weather are going to be more interested in getting more power for the energy they are expending.