That side piece of plywood that had rot in an inner ply..an old house flipping trick is to simply add another piece of 1/4" plywood onto that one, with epoxy in between. The epoxy in between part definitely is not a house flipper trick! Having these reconstruction videos will absolutely increase the value of your boat. So the extra time you're taking to create and edit these videos is not only bringing in a revenue stream now, but a lump sum when you go to sell. Brilliant!
I agree with Hoffman's comment. I love the videos even though I will never be retrofitting a sailboat. I especially enjoy the humorous comments. Keep the videos coming.
Eric Hoffman My husband and I have decided that it is because he is adorable. He is so friendly and upbeat AND he is doing one of our favorite things (working on a sailboat)
We used to mix resin and cheap ground limestone(talc) from the garden center to make a general purpose pourable filler, or add a little cabosil to thicker . Looks like it was better than foam that you knew was going to be all wet! Cures nice and hard if well mixed. It would be a green gray color. A very similar mix is used ( behind clear gelcoat) in all those cheap marble lookalike sinks and countertop you buy at the home store , they just start with white stone powder and add color streaks. It’s a cheaper than depont corian and much easier to customize the colors. Looks to me like you should do nothing but I’m sure you are going to make a project of it. Cheers warren
I am in the process of remodeling my bathrooms and have been removing and installing doors and hardware. I have an old set of NiCad drill and driver and the batteries were always discharged and would take a long time to charge so I spent a lot of time chasing extension cords for a corded drill and hand driving screws. After watching you doing so much work with your Bosch tools I went out bought some 12v tools for myself for the rest of my remodeling. You may have never promoted Bosch but you do make a good case for their tools. As for glorious sanding my joy is limited to hand sanding walls and trim before painting. I guess I will have to continue to live vicariously through your videos.
Hi Mads - May I suggest that water from the cockpit leaked on to the rutter stabilizier shelf and puddled rotting the corner of the shelf, the adjacent port side wall of the engine compartment wall and was beginning to rot underneath the rutter bushing bracket. Regarding the diesel fuel damage to the port side engine compartment wall. I suggest using your router to remove a layer of 6.5 or 5mm deep damaged plywood and replace it with fresh plywood. BTW, you do an excellent job with these sorts of repairs. Apparently it’s a good thing you are digging so deep into Athena’s hidden corners. You keep findings things amiss that need repair. Keep up the excellent work.
I know you have found quite a number of surprises, but nevertheless, you are doing the things the proper way. Well done. PS: I have seen your videos for more than a year now and decided to go back to 2016 to see how it started
I really enjoy your videos I know English wasn't your first language because I remember the bloopers where you correct yourself on how to say things, but I'm glad you do it in English
Mads. I have witnessed 2 boat projects (new buildings) from an empty shell to finish. One was a 36 foot and the other a 40 foot. I don't want to sound negative, but I think that unless you start to radically prioritize, this boat is not going to be ready for this summer. If you are worried about the rudder, make a mold of it, take measurements and make a new spare rudder when you have time. Use this one for time being as it is, to win some time. My boat has seen quite an overhaul this winter but it's NOTHING compared with yours. I have guys working full time (including my self) from time to time on it and it's still going to be some what tight. If you complete Athena for the comming season, with the fidelity you have and the precision you leave behind, you are a Superman! (well... a Superman you are, but still...)
If the core is what I think it is, I have used tonnes of it. It's a volcanic sand used as a filler with epoxy when you cast solid things. An alternative would be Spherical fused silica. Yet another alternative often used is aluminium hydroxide (hydrated alumina) since it keeps the heat down in bigger solid castings. The mix varies if you want to cast a new rudder, but you need to make it kinda dry. If you ram it up and get a glistering surface you have too much epoxy in the mix. It just has to form a clump when you squeeze a lump in your fist.
My cousin made an entire, 40ft yacht from ferrous concrete. Every other owner in his marina used to be greatly concerned when he used to return from a day's sailing having sank several glasses of wine! It looked like a yacht but was actually a battle tank in disguise!
Hey Mads! Just discovered those net sanding disks too; love the P40 for antifouling! Just please make sure you're using one of those protective disks in between your sander and the disk... already ruined one of the 'sanding disks/saddles?' before I discovered those things exist!
I would really like to meet you on the 18th of March, but we will have out of town guests that day. I'm so bummed! I thoroughly enjoy watching your progress though. On a separate note, you should be aware that the LA Marathon is being run that day. People may have trouble getting to you, depending on where you decide to meet up. Just thought you might like to know.
Yeah, I agree fully. I was being sarcastic when I questioned, "what could happen...?" The answer is that the boat can be left with virtually no directional control, under sail or under power. In storms the loads on the rudder can be immense and rudder failures are not uncommon. In my opinion any ocean-going boat should have some sort of back-up provision for emergency steering if the rudder fails.
Another awesome video. Yours is the best boat DIY show on the internet, hands down. Your videos and Follow The Boat are the two must-see videos I follow where I can't wait for the next episode. Good thing you tore out that plywood. You learned that the delron bearing/bushing was shot and it needed a new seal. Without tearing that out you probably would not have been able to replace the delron piece since it was trapped by the epoxy. I figured that you could just patch that rotten corner but you were absolutely right to keep on taking it apart and fixing everything inside. I was wrong. Can't wait to see what happens with the rudder. Looks a lot like you are going to need to just put it back together wet-ish or totally start from scratch and build a whole new rudder. That's going to be a hard decision. I would lay money on you doing "the right thing" as you always do when it comes to Athena.
Madds, I just found out on Friday that my rudder is made with the same stuff. A sistership of my boat was wrecked in Hurricane Irma and is being parted out. I went to pick the bones and found the owner had cut the rudder off the post. And there was this grey, concrete material firmly attached to the fiberglass skin. So, I'm in the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp. And since I've seen what 39 years has (Or, in this case, hasn't done) structurally to the rudder, I'm happy the way it is. You might want to check the 'repaired' area at the foot/forward ... Or Not!
A good way of cleaning up old metal is leaving it to soak in white vinegar for a few days with the occasional wire wool scrub. Takes off rust & grime to make it look new. Plus it's cheap.
That engine room is starting to look spiffy. I can wait to see it painted. Careful with the delrin bushing for the rudder. Allow for some expansion when it gets wet. If it's machined too exact it will bind the rudder tight. Also keep any petroleum based liquid far away too from the delrin. It's a great material otherwise.
Mads, I hope you think about where this is going. I rebuilt my rudder with a new post, fingers, and foam core. I used half the original shell and laminated the rest. If I had to do it again, I would built a mold for a new rudder using the original as a mold. I posted pictures on your FB. BTW, I find that wedges work well for separating stuff. They spread the load.
It may well be some kind of sand/resin mix. We have an internal lead keel inside our solid GRP hull. After we fitted the poured lead keel into the hull we poured a mix of dry blasting sand and resin down one side of the keel and waited for it to rise up on the other side, giving us a complete encapsulation of the lead. You may have something similar in your rudder.
They seemed to have used any powder they can get hold of in the 70's. Mine was the same with various filler powders mixed with poly resin in various places for various filling type jobs. I have no idea what the powders were but it was a long time ago and things have changed and new ways invented so you just have to use whatever the modern equivelant is. I'm sure some of it was sawdust but who knows.
It has got to kill your OCD Mads to look at (13:32 in vid) the windvane backing blocks not being 90deg. I agree Spoon trick for the fillet is a great trick. Keep it up!
A note on the 3M 6000 series filters. There should be dust pre-filters that you snap onto the actual carbon filters. The part numbers are in the paperwork with the filters. Without the pre-filters the actual carbon filters will plug up and loose much of its life.
Good point. The pre-filters are cheap although the plastic holders that snap over the organic cartridges to hold them on are easily damaged when in confined spaces and are hard/expensive to source on their own. Mine end up getting taped back together with electrical tape before too long. They sometimes don't even last any longer than the pre-filters themselves. :( 3M makesround dust filters that are pink in color and have some ability to filter out the "nuisance" toxic chemicals. Not as effective as the organic cartridges but helpful if what you are sanding is just a bit smelly, or you are not in a confined area. Also, there are much nicer "deluxe" masks in the 3M 6000 series that are so much more comfortable and handy. I have the 6503QL Rugged Comfort Quic-Latch mask which has a much nicer and comfortable silicone mouthpiece for more comfort and the quick-release latch which allows you to just drop the mask off of your face with a flick of your thumb, and then relatch it just as easily. It's only $20 and is worth the upgrade. The masks tend to fall apart fairly quickly after about a hundred hours on your face in my experience and need replacing or at least internal parts replaced. Buying the replacement parts like the inner disc valves and the elastic head straps costs more than just buying a new $20 mask. IMHO you might as well upgrade to a nicer model like the quicklatch version while you are at it if you are wearing one for any length of time doing a lot of glorious sanding or painting coat after coat of luxurious but toxic paints. Just the added comfort of the softer silicone up against your face is worth it, not to mention the quick-latch feature. a.co/5h0bsbn
Ferrous Concrete would be what i am think, as well, but the slate dust sound good.,,and just to say you do a darn good job with the videos you allways make it easy to see what your are doing, hey thanks for sharing.
Im looking forward to your Rudderseal, I work at a sealing company in germany and maybe can help if there is an issue finding the right seal. I love your videos :)
hi Mads.. I am new to watching your rebuild.. catching up on your TH-cam clips... just to add a small trick to your pipping bag. put the plastic bag in a cup with the bag pulled over the sides. then you can use the edge of the cup to scrap the filler into the bag -clean & tidy... keep up the good work.. and will see you out on the water sometime in the future....
I had Marble dust grout in mine or so I was told, I built new from scratch, stainless and HD foam. Be careful though my new rudder was lighter and when I look at my trimaran it looks as if it sits higher in the stern now.
Dough moulding compound (DMC) it’s heavy and is sometimes mixed with fillers? It’s essentially a fibreglass strand mixture that is hot pressed in a pre shaped mould press! Just a thought!
If it were my rudder in this condition, first I would anchor the post, and torque test it to check for any movement between the post, and rudder. If it's solid, I wouldn't go any further opening it up. Then I'd drill a few weep holes through the outer layer, and set it over or near a heater for a few days to drive out the moisture, then reseal the holes, the cutout work, and especially where the post enters the rudder body. Then maybe a layer of glass cloth and resin overall, and paint and re install. Should be good for normal sailing conditions.
Most likely the filling is a mixture of polyester and sand. It is an old method that have been used a lot on many boats. I bet you have the same filler in the skeg area. You might want to check the skeg again. I think I saw it flexing quite a bit when you pulled on it.
Second thoughts on that rudder. First is that pilot hole should have been drilled into the bottom of it before it was dropped to inspect for water intrusion. Oh well. I believe what you could be looking at there is a ferro cement rudder core. I would not chisel into it any further unless your idea of a repair is to replace the rudder entirely. You may need some "milk" compound here which is used to insure adhesion of old mortar and cement to new. Then you will need a very small batch of ferro cement or grout or whatever that is. Fill in what you dug out and patch up the fiberglass skin. You could drill a test hole to see if any water comes out after the rudder has been stood up for a week. My guess there is that you are not going to see any water coming out. After patching up what was taken out I would simply trust that any water intrusion to the rudder tang welds is at best quite minimal and that no corrosion of the stainless steel welds exists. IF that cement compound is in fact really nothing but a total sand consistency with no bonding left, well, if that is the case then you just bought yourself a new rudder or made one. You just haven't gotten around to the work/expense of doing so yet.
First of all, whether or not I like your videos or not, I always hit like just to mark the ones i've watched. I like them all anyways and Ill be watching them for ever. BTW my bosch power tools have never let me down yet so no worries with yours. Cheers
Mads is the sandy stuff possibly Gurit Foam core or a similar material. I'm lead to believe that "true" Gurit is impervious to water so a cheaper substitute might be what you have to deal with Cheers Eric
Mads, You are going to need 2 to 4 more 4 holes in shelf. Two are for a support bracket to which the autopilot system is mounted and two where for hose clamps. These last two should not be needed as there are much better ways to route the cockpit drain pipes. I'm sure you will do your drill-fill-drill number.
Just about sailing did the same thing with his rudder! I'd just put 3 or 4 more layers of fiberglass over it and I'm sure it will last as long as you have the boat!
it looks like a substance... called gypcrete, a polyester resin, mixed with gypsym and fine sand. used to level floors in old factories, being converted to condominiums, can be like butter, like gelatin, or like water, so that it can find a preset level, being gray, and sand like could be. or something else, but it would make sense, if that boat was built in the 80's, it was really popular then, especially in construction.
Hi Mads - Great update and I will not add to the rudder fill material is - it seems to have been well covered by ‘Just about Sailing’ and others. If you decide to stop the archaeological dig and patch the rudder up how about bagging it up, heat pad and vacuuming it down to remove the moisture?
l know nothing about boats except they should mostly float except when they ruin your day and don't. but I have worked with stuff that looks a lot like what you showed and if I'm right it's called " Stone Cast." it's used for all sorts of concrete and stone repairs and surprisingly a variant of it is used to make expensive shower tray's. it's incredibly strong with varying amounts of ductility depending on how it's mixed all the way up to super hard but more brittle for surface endurance.
It might be Vermiculite. It was used in the construction of some boats in the 70’s and 80’s. J24 keelboats often had it on top of the keel. It looks like concrete
Mads! I know it’s gone one year now (found you just a week ago) but what you did with the play wood, I’m not sure if it was a good idea. How are you now gonna change (I didn’t notice that you did) change the gasket that is under the waterline? I’m thinking of the “pipe” that the roder is coming through? That is way more important than the one above waterline you are going to change. I hope you can change it from the outside... I can be wrong, but pls check it up
OK....so...what keeps the epoxy "plugs" from popping out? I ask because I need to do something similar on my boat...and I'm not glassing over the hole because it's covered under a spot light.
The Thickened Epoxy "plugs" are there to prevent any water intrusion into the core. Its actually a pretty common practice, but I've seen people dig out a bit of the core as well so the thickened epoxy is "locked" in by the top and bottom skins. That's how I've done it and it's a real PITA...but I'm worried that a "plug" could just pop out.
Hi Mads, this „concreate“ is a mix from Polyester an dryed sand. They did it to fill any compartments. Because of the sand the polyester didn‘t heat up during the hardened process. You will find this tool despiding filling also below your maststep on Obelix. I promise you that you will have fun with this stuff; I can tell you. Better think about a new rudder or leave it as it is. good luck Sören
I had to remove this kind of stuff some years ago on my Albin Ballad. I started with angle grinder and ended up with a big hammer. Finally I cut a huge hole into the hull to remove the complete maststep through the hull. This stuff is horror for all kind of tools!
Some rudders are filled with concrete. the theory being that the additional mass keeps the rudder tracking with more stability. takes more effort to get it there, but inertial keeps it there so it reduces control flutter. It's probably damp, and it probably isn't going to affect anything at all that it is damp. If you go digging for the rudder structure, you are going to end up having to refill it, and if you do, you need to match the density of the material because otherwise it will be lighter on one side and tend to want to pull one way or the other. I would probably avoid opening it up further personally, and if you do open it, be prepared for a very significant amount of work for no return. You are literally talking about air chisles and jackhammers here.
I would think that a rudder should be as light as possible. Neutrally buoyant really. Would you want to try to control all that extra weight? I think Mads might want to make a mold from this rudder for the rebuild. But I dont know how hard it would be to remove the material that is in there.
I'm with Tim on this stability is very important and a big thing for control surfaces even those used on any kind or aeroplane whether its 747 or a cessna. I would be careful opening it up.
Tim, are you saying that he should hope that the rudder is fine because it would be too much work to repair it? He should not check out a 30 year old rudder because it is difficult? I dont understand....
Mads, it looks exactly what I found in my rudder (check my January (2) video - horrible to watch). I have been told that it is slate dust plus some sort of polyurethene resin mixed together. It s like concrete. Mine is a 1976 UK built boat - so maybe it was common back then. If I could have my time again, I would make a mould from the old rudder and make a new one, and not split it at all. Unfortunately I am too far down the track to do that now. Good luck!!!!!
British boat builder from that era were notorious for some of the shortcuts used. So this doesn't surprise me at all. I've also seen no backing plates or even penny washers, loose ballast, encapsulated nuts and bolts for deck hardware, missing tabbing. On my Eygthene 24 the wooden stringers that the keel bolts go through became detached from the keel when she was towed on a road trailer, underneath them was filled with old screws, scraps of sandpaper and other construction junk. Things have come a long way!
I agree (with the solution...I have no experience with this materal)...the easiest thing to do, in this case, is to make a mold of the rudder and make new one...I would salvage the rudder post though.
Well that certainly answers for the weight. This is certainly getting interesting. It looks like it was poured with a concrete or more probably grout. I would core down to a rudder tang weld and check for corrosion near the bottom. If there is no corrosion I would fill it all in and call it good.
Well that is a surprise in the rudder. No idea what that is although it looks like cement...why would anyone use cement? Well I for one can't wait to hear what it is because I have no idea... I expected foam. The new ply support for the rudder looks super spiffy and great job as usual. Needed doing.
Hardly. So they supplied a couple hand tools. He acknowledged that. He used a lot of their tools previously. For the amount of money he has invested in the project, the value of the tools is miniscule. You could accuse him of having a huge West (edit) System advert because he shows their stuff all the time as he uses it. His videos are a great diary and source of information for all those who are interested, and looking for a resource for information on how to reconstruct a sailboat.
WEST System epoxy isn't made by West Marine, although they sell it. Two totally unrelated companies. West System epoxy is an industry standard, they don't need any advertising. Plus, if they were providing free swag to every amateur TH-cam Channel out there doing boast repairs with West Epoxy they would be bankrupt.
What I think is funny is that you have people who obviously look forward to seeing your video on a Sunday, but only 1 in 3 put a thumbs up, funny isn’t it.
Jonathan Tithecott not really, a thumbs up puts it into a list of favorite videos, then you have all these favorite videos that you can put into other lists but that’s just bore to do. So you favorite video list of useless as special ones you want to go back to, dunno xmas I doing it wrong! Cheers warren
I think he mentioned this before. There are rust stains on the rudder which leads to possible corrosion on the tangs inside the rudder. This would be a dangerous situation if they break and then had no control of the rudder while sailing. I saw a good video from Andy from boat works today where he slices away the fiberglass and replaces the high density foam...it shows a good peek of what is inside a rudder
Thrilling! Is it same kind of concrete as on a ferrocement boat? Or is more like gas-concrete? Or is it just a heavy density foam that’s plastered with fine concrete?
What is the Caramba. Is it a penetrating oil? We use a lot of PB Blaster here in the USA for penetrating oil purposes. It works well but sometimes I find items that need to be treated repeated over a period of several days (or even a couple of weeks in difficult cases) to allow the penetrants to seep into joints.
Quick tip about the 3M mask, get pre filters for the larger filters, it will save them from dust, and let them just absorb fumes, you will want this even if you are just painting, seeing as there is a lot of dust just hanging around in the air . Second keep them in a bag when not in use, and if you have them trow in a pack of "do not eat" (desiccant pack from some other random parcel), this will keep them from absorbing moisture when not in use, and will help in getting more life out of the filters.
Marius Egeland. I worked with full face masks, and from experience I can tell you that filter + pre filter your breathing becomes harder and get exhausted faster.
Well I only used them for around 2-3 hours at a time when welding and sometimes when we did painting work where I worked, so never really tested without the pre filters. I just wanted to give my to cents
I think it would make perfect sense for a yard to fill the rudder with concrete... It's very stable and never rots or rusts.. But I have no clue as well.
That side piece of plywood that had rot in an inner ply..an old house flipping trick is to simply add another piece of 1/4" plywood onto that one, with epoxy in between. The epoxy in between part definitely is not a house flipper trick!
Having these reconstruction videos will absolutely increase the value of your boat. So the extra time you're taking to create and edit these videos is not only bringing in a revenue stream now, but a lump sum when you go to sell. Brilliant!
I agree with Hoffman's comment. I love the videos even though I will never be retrofitting a sailboat. I especially enjoy the humorous comments. Keep the videos coming.
A couple years later, but I needed to say what quality work you do!
Also how much work you saved me ! ! Thanks for your whole program. Wm.
How to rebuild a boat one board at a time! You are awesome! Really looking forward to the day you arrive in a beautiful warm, sunny clim.
i can't explain why this channel is so frickin entertaining
Eric Hoffman My husband and I have decided that it is because he is adorable. He is so friendly and upbeat AND he is doing one of our favorite things (working on a sailboat)
BrightSEALAB i would have to change mine from adorable to admirable lol
also helps that he has amazing audio and video quality and editing that doesn't leave too much out
We used to mix resin and cheap ground limestone(talc) from the garden center to make a general purpose pourable filler, or add a little cabosil to thicker . Looks like it was better than foam that you knew was going to be all wet! Cures nice and hard if well mixed. It would be a green gray color.
A very similar mix is used ( behind clear gelcoat) in all those cheap marble lookalike sinks and countertop you buy at the home store , they just start with white stone powder and add color streaks. It’s a cheaper than depont corian and much easier to customize the colors. Looks to me like you should do nothing but I’m sure you are going to make a project of it.
Cheers warren
I am in the process of remodeling my bathrooms and have been removing and installing doors and hardware. I have an old set of NiCad drill and driver and the batteries were always discharged and would take a long time to charge so I spent a lot of time chasing extension cords for a corded drill and hand driving screws. After watching you doing so much work with your Bosch tools I went out bought some 12v tools for myself for the rest of my remodeling. You may have never promoted Bosch but you do make a good case for their tools.
As for glorious sanding my joy is limited to hand sanding walls and trim before painting. I guess I will have to continue to live vicariously through your videos.
Good thing that original yard is closed, otherwise you’d put them outta business pretty soon with all your findings! Keep up the great work, Mas!
We're enjoying watching your progress. I hope we live long enough (I'm 62) to see you go around the world!
Hi Mads -
May I suggest that water from the cockpit leaked on to the rutter stabilizier shelf and puddled rotting the corner of the shelf, the adjacent port side wall of the engine compartment wall and was beginning to rot underneath the rutter bushing bracket.
Regarding the diesel fuel damage to the port side engine compartment wall. I suggest using your router to remove a layer of 6.5 or 5mm deep damaged plywood and replace it with fresh plywood. BTW, you do an excellent job with these sorts of repairs.
Apparently it’s a good thing you are digging so deep into Athena’s hidden corners. You keep findings things amiss that need repair. Keep up the excellent work.
I know you have found quite a number of surprises, but nevertheless, you are doing the things the proper way.
Well done.
PS: I have seen your videos for more than a year now and decided to go back to 2016 to see how it started
I really enjoy your videos I know English wasn't your first language because I remember the bloopers where you correct yourself on how to say things, but I'm glad you do it in English
Religiously watch your videos every sunday, Love this project and all the DIY. Keep up the good work!
Mads. I have witnessed 2 boat projects (new buildings) from an empty shell to finish. One was a 36 foot and the other a 40 foot. I don't want to sound negative, but I think that unless you start to radically prioritize, this boat is not going to be ready for this summer.
If you are worried about the rudder, make a mold of it, take measurements and make a new spare rudder when you have time.
Use this one for time being as it is, to win some time.
My boat has seen quite an overhaul this winter but it's NOTHING compared with yours. I have guys working full time (including my self) from time to time on it and it's still going to be some what tight.
If you complete Athena for the comming season, with the fidelity you have and the precision you leave behind, you are a Superman! (well... a Superman you are, but still...)
If the core is what I think it is, I have used tonnes of it. It's a volcanic sand used as a filler with epoxy when you cast solid things.
An alternative would be Spherical fused silica. Yet another alternative often used is aluminium hydroxide (hydrated alumina) since it keeps the heat down in bigger solid castings.
The mix varies if you want to cast a new rudder, but you need to make it kinda dry. If you ram it up and get a glistering surface you have too much epoxy in the mix. It just has to form a clump when you squeeze a lump in your fist.
My cousin made an entire, 40ft yacht from ferrous concrete. Every other owner in his marina used to be greatly concerned when he used to return from a day's sailing having sank several glasses of wine! It looked like a yacht but was actually a battle tank in disguise!
Wha you've done with that piece of ply is called quality.. some might not want to go that far, but it is worth it in my book!
Hey Mads! Just discovered those net sanding disks too; love the P40 for antifouling! Just please make sure you're using one of those protective disks in between your sander and the disk... already ruined one of the 'sanding disks/saddles?' before I discovered those things exist!
I would really like to meet you on the 18th of March, but we will have out of town guests that day. I'm so bummed! I thoroughly enjoy watching your progress though. On a separate note, you should be aware that the LA Marathon is being run that day. People may have trouble getting to you, depending on where you decide to meet up. Just thought you might like to know.
Yeah, I agree fully. I was being sarcastic when I questioned, "what could happen...?" The answer is that the boat can be left with virtually no directional control, under sail or under power. In storms the loads on the rudder can be immense and rudder failures are not uncommon. In my opinion any ocean-going boat should have some sort of back-up provision for emergency steering if the rudder fails.
GREAT CHANNEL KEEP FOLLOWING YOUR INSTINCT ON DOING REPAIRS
Another awesome video. Yours is the best boat DIY show on the internet, hands down. Your videos and Follow The Boat are the two must-see videos I follow where I can't wait for the next episode.
Good thing you tore out that plywood. You learned that the delron bearing/bushing was shot and it needed a new seal. Without tearing that out you probably would not have been able to replace the delron piece since it was trapped by the epoxy. I figured that you could just patch that rotten corner but you were absolutely right to keep on taking it apart and fixing everything inside. I was wrong.
Can't wait to see what happens with the rudder. Looks a lot like you are going to need to just put it back together wet-ish or totally start from scratch and build a whole new rudder. That's going to be a hard decision. I would lay money on you doing "the right thing" as you always do when it comes to Athena.
Madds, I just found out on Friday that my rudder is made with the same stuff.
A sistership of my boat was wrecked in Hurricane Irma and is being parted out. I went to pick the bones and found the owner had cut the rudder off the post. And there was this grey, concrete material firmly attached to the fiberglass skin.
So, I'm in the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp. And since I've seen what 39 years has (Or, in this case, hasn't done) structurally to the rudder, I'm happy the way it is. You might want to check the 'repaired' area at the foot/forward ... Or Not!
A good way of cleaning up old metal is leaving it to soak in white vinegar for a few days with the occasional wire wool scrub. Takes off rust & grime to make it look new. Plus it's cheap.
That engine room is starting to look spiffy. I can wait to see it painted. Careful with the delrin bushing for the rudder. Allow for some expansion when it gets wet. If it's machined too exact it will bind the rudder tight. Also keep any petroleum based liquid far away too from the delrin. It's a great material otherwise.
Mads, I hope you think about where this is going. I rebuilt my rudder with a new post, fingers, and foam core. I used half the original shell and laminated the rest. If I had to do it again, I would built a mold for a new rudder using the original as a mold. I posted pictures on your FB. BTW, I find that wedges work well for separating stuff. They spread the load.
It may well be some kind of sand/resin mix. We have an internal lead keel inside our solid GRP hull. After we fitted the poured lead keel into the hull we poured a mix of dry blasting sand and resin down one side of the keel and waited for it to rise up on the other side, giving us a complete encapsulation of the lead. You may have something similar in your rudder.
Nav station looks awesome. Love the job your doing. I just bought a 1977 morgan s&j 45. Gonna follow your lead.
They seemed to have used any powder they can get hold of in the 70's. Mine was the same with various filler powders mixed with poly resin in various places for various filling type jobs. I have no idea what the powders were but it was a long time ago and things have changed and new ways invented so you just have to use whatever the modern equivelant is. I'm sure some of it was sawdust but who knows.
It has got to kill your OCD Mads to look at (13:32 in vid) the windvane backing blocks not being 90deg.
I agree Spoon trick for the fillet is a great trick. Keep it up!
Thanks for another great video. You always brighten up my Sunday afternoon.
A note on the 3M 6000 series filters. There should be dust pre-filters that you snap onto the actual carbon filters. The part numbers are in the paperwork with the filters. Without the pre-filters the actual carbon filters will plug up and loose much of its life.
Good point. The pre-filters are cheap although the plastic holders that snap over the organic cartridges to hold them on are easily damaged when in confined spaces and are hard/expensive to source on their own. Mine end up getting taped back together with electrical tape before too long. They sometimes don't even last any longer than the pre-filters themselves. :(
3M makesround dust filters that are pink in color and have some ability to filter out the "nuisance" toxic chemicals. Not as effective as the organic cartridges but helpful if what you are sanding is just a bit smelly, or you are not in a confined area.
Also, there are much nicer "deluxe" masks in the 3M 6000 series that are so much more comfortable and handy. I have the 6503QL Rugged Comfort Quic-Latch mask which has a much nicer and comfortable silicone mouthpiece for more comfort and the quick-release latch which allows you to just drop the mask off of your face with a flick of your thumb, and then relatch it just as easily. It's only $20 and is worth the upgrade.
The masks tend to fall apart fairly quickly after about a hundred hours on your face in my experience and need replacing or at least internal parts replaced. Buying the replacement parts like the inner disc valves and the elastic head straps costs more than just buying a new $20 mask. IMHO you might as well upgrade to a nicer model like the quicklatch version while you are at it if you are wearing one for any length of time doing a lot of glorious sanding or painting coat after coat of luxurious but toxic paints. Just the added comfort of the softer silicone up against your face is worth it, not to mention the quick-latch feature.
a.co/5h0bsbn
Ferrous Concrete would be what i am think, as well, but the slate dust sound good.,,and just to say you do a darn good job with the videos you allways make it easy to see what your are doing, hey thanks for sharing.
I'm going to use your spoon method when i recaulk my bathtub. Thanks Mads.
Im looking forward to your Rudderseal, I work at a sealing company in germany and maybe can help if there is an issue finding the right seal.
I love your videos :)
hi Mads.. I am new to watching your rebuild.. catching up on your TH-cam clips... just to add a small trick to your pipping bag. put the plastic bag in a cup with the bag pulled over the sides. then you can use the edge of the cup to scrap the filler into the bag -clean & tidy... keep up the good work.. and will see you out on the water sometime in the future....
I had Marble dust grout in mine or so I was told, I built new from scratch, stainless and HD foam. Be careful though my new rudder was lighter and when I look at my trimaran it looks as if it sits higher in the stern now.
Your boat is a never ending list of surprises! Makes for a great series to see what next appears. ;-)
Your quite the epoxy and fibreglass expert Mads 👍🏼
Dough moulding compound (DMC) it’s heavy and is sometimes mixed with fillers? It’s essentially a fibreglass strand mixture that is hot pressed in a pre shaped mould press! Just a thought!
If it were my rudder in this condition, first I would anchor the post, and torque test it to check for any movement between the post, and rudder. If it's solid, I wouldn't go any further opening it up. Then I'd drill a few weep holes through the outer layer, and set it over or near a heater for a few days to drive out the moisture, then reseal the holes, the cutout work, and especially where the post enters the rudder body. Then maybe a layer of glass cloth and resin overall, and paint and re install. Should be good for normal sailing conditions.
Most likely the filling is a mixture of polyester and sand. It is an old method that have been used a lot on many boats. I bet you have the same filler in the skeg area. You might want to check the skeg again. I think I saw it flexing quite a bit when you pulled on it.
Second thoughts on that rudder. First is that pilot hole should have been drilled into the bottom of it before it was dropped to inspect for water intrusion. Oh well. I believe what you could be looking at there is a ferro cement rudder core. I would not chisel into it any further unless your idea of a repair is to replace the rudder entirely. You may need some "milk" compound here which is used to insure adhesion of old mortar and cement to new. Then you will need a very small batch of ferro cement or grout or whatever that is. Fill in what you dug out and patch up the fiberglass skin. You could drill a test hole to see if any water comes out after the rudder has been stood up for a week. My guess there is that you are not going to see any water coming out. After patching up what was taken out I would simply trust that any water intrusion to the rudder tang welds is at best quite minimal and that no corrosion of the stainless steel welds exists. IF that cement compound is in fact really nothing but a total sand consistency with no bonding left, well, if that is the case then you just bought yourself a new rudder or made one. You just haven't gotten around to the work/expense of doing so yet.
I had a similar material in the keel stub of a 1976 Catalina 30.
First of all, whether or not I like your videos or not, I always hit like just to mark the ones i've watched. I like them all anyways and Ill be watching them for ever. BTW my bosch power tools have never let me down yet so no worries with yours. Cheers
Mads is the sandy stuff possibly Gurit Foam core or a similar material.
I'm lead to believe that "true" Gurit is impervious to water so a cheaper substitute might be what you have to deal with
Cheers Eric
Mads, You are going to need 2 to 4 more 4 holes in shelf. Two are for a support bracket to which the autopilot system is mounted and two where for hose clamps. These last two should not be needed as there are much better ways to route the cockpit drain pipes. I'm sure you will do your drill-fill-drill number.
Just about sailing did the same thing with his rudder! I'd just put 3 or 4 more layers of fiberglass over it and I'm sure it will last as long as you have the boat!
it looks like a substance... called gypcrete, a polyester resin, mixed with gypsym and fine sand. used to level floors in old factories, being converted to condominiums, can be like butter, like gelatin, or like water, so that it can find a preset level, being gray, and sand like could be. or something else, but it would make sense, if that boat was built in the 80's, it was really popular then, especially in construction.
Hi Mads - Great update and I will not add to the rudder fill material is - it seems to have been well covered by ‘Just about Sailing’ and others. If you decide to stop the archaeological dig and patch the rudder up how about bagging it up, heat pad and vacuuming it down to remove the moisture?
It looking great! Great job! Well done.....
l know nothing about boats except they should mostly float except when they ruin your day and don't. but
I have worked with stuff that looks a lot like what you showed and if I'm right it's called " Stone Cast." it's used for all sorts of concrete and stone repairs and surprisingly a variant of it is used to make expensive shower tray's. it's incredibly strong with varying amounts of ductility depending on how it's mixed all the way up to super hard but more brittle for surface endurance.
Hey, I like the spoon trick for smoothing filets.
Indeed it does, but over a long filet you are likely to end up with a wavy and irregular fillet unless you have the steadiness of a surgeon's hands.
I've seen the comment Ferro cement rudder? and that was my first guess as well. Still just a guess however. Looking forward to the answer.
It might be Vermiculite. It was used in the construction of some boats in the 70’s and 80’s. J24 keelboats often had it on top of the keel. It looks like concrete
it could be vermeculite which was used mixed with resin as a filler in some keels... could have asbestos in it...
awesome video!
Mads! I know it’s gone one year now (found you just a week ago) but what you did with the play wood, I’m not sure if it was a good idea. How are you now gonna change (I didn’t notice that you did) change the gasket that is under the waterline?
I’m thinking of the “pipe” that the roder is coming through? That is way more important than the one above waterline you are going to change.
I hope you can change it from the outside...
I can be wrong, but pls check it up
from the looks of that stuff I think it might be easer for you to build a new rudder. you can cut the rudder post out and reuse it
Thanks for another fantastic video Mads :)
Quite a few comments last week about Grey Slate dust and resin
DAMN 2ND!!
FIRST!!! I DID IT!!
well done from 51st
OK....so...what keeps the epoxy "plugs" from popping out? I ask because I need to do something similar on my boat...and I'm not glassing over the hole because it's covered under a spot light.
Why were the holes drilled out bigger and refilled with epoxy? What does this do?
The Thickened Epoxy "plugs" are there to prevent any water intrusion into the core. Its actually a pretty common practice, but I've seen people dig out a bit of the core as well so the thickened epoxy is "locked" in by the top and bottom skins. That's how I've done it and it's a real PITA...but I'm worried that a "plug" could just pop out.
WreckDiver99 Thank you, that makes sense. I would think the epoxy will bond to the wood so it shouldn't pop loose.
Hi Mads,
this „concreate“ is a mix from Polyester an dryed sand. They did it to fill any compartments. Because of the sand the polyester didn‘t heat up during the hardened process. You will find this tool despiding filling also below your maststep on Obelix.
I promise you that you will have fun with this stuff; I can tell you. Better think about a new rudder or leave it as it is.
good luck
Sören
Sören Kuper - That sounded scary.
I had to remove this kind of stuff some years ago on my Albin Ballad. I started with angle grinder and ended up with a big hammer. Finally I cut a huge hole into the hull to remove the complete maststep through the hull.
This stuff is horror for all kind of tools!
Thanks Mads looking good, best of luck with th rudder no clue what that material is😐
Some rudders are filled with concrete. the theory being that the additional mass keeps the rudder tracking with more stability. takes more effort to get it there, but inertial keeps it there so it reduces control flutter. It's probably damp, and it probably isn't going to affect anything at all that it is damp. If you go digging for the rudder structure, you are going to end up having to refill it, and if you do, you need to match the density of the material because otherwise it will be lighter on one side and tend to want to pull one way or the other. I would probably avoid opening it up further personally, and if you do open it, be prepared for a very significant amount of work for no return. You are literally talking about air chisles and jackhammers here.
Correct 👌🏼
I believe it is hydraulic cement. sometimes it only goes part way up with the goal of creating neutral buoyancy.
I would think that a rudder should be as light as possible. Neutrally buoyant really. Would you want to try to control all that extra weight? I think Mads might want to make a mold from this rudder for the rebuild. But I dont know how hard it would be to remove the material that is in there.
I'm with Tim on this stability is very important and a big thing for control surfaces even those used on any kind or aeroplane whether its 747 or a cessna. I would be careful opening it up.
Tim, are you saying that he should hope that the rudder is fine because it would be too much work to repair it? He should not check out a 30 year old rudder because it is difficult? I dont understand....
As others have mentioned "Just About Sailing" did a rudder repair and found the same thing. Here is a link: th-cam.com/video/kBOuHxzNRcg/w-d-xo.html
Sailing Vessel Southern Lady i
Mads, it looks exactly what I found in my rudder (check my January (2) video - horrible to watch). I have been told that it is slate dust plus some sort of polyurethene resin mixed together. It s like concrete. Mine is a 1976 UK built boat - so maybe it was common back then. If I could have my time again, I would make a mould from the old rudder and make a new one, and not split it at all. Unfortunately I am too far down the track to do that now. Good luck!!!!!
Ha Ha I was just about to say check out just about sailing, I wish I had done a blog of my fishing boat rebuild, still its almost done now.
I was about to say somebody predicted what you would find in the rudder lol. You beat me to it haha.
Just about to say the same - Check out Just About Sailing.... Looks identical...
British boat builder from that era were notorious for some of the shortcuts used. So this doesn't surprise me at all. I've also seen no backing plates or even penny washers, loose ballast, encapsulated nuts and bolts for deck hardware, missing tabbing.
On my Eygthene 24 the wooden stringers that the keel bolts go through became detached from the keel when she was towed on a road trailer, underneath them was filled with old screws, scraps of sandpaper and other construction junk.
Things have come a long way!
I agree (with the solution...I have no experience with this materal)...the easiest thing to do, in this case, is to make a mold of the rudder and make new one...I would salvage the rudder post though.
Well that certainly answers for the weight. This is certainly getting interesting. It looks like it was poured with a concrete or more probably grout. I would core down to a rudder tang weld and check for corrosion near the bottom. If there is no corrosion I would fill it all in and call it good.
You know that he will rebuild the entire rudder. He can't help himself...and more episodes for us!
I see an air chisel coming to his boat very soon now. Maybe even a jack hammer.
You are doing a great job Mads, I'm sure you'll end up with a better than new Warrior 38,
I look forward to your videos every week :)
Looking forward to see the finished engine room.
I read about rudder having cement core in comment section of last video, very surprised that you are surprised.
concret ?
Well that is a surprise in the rudder. No idea what that is although it looks like cement...why would anyone use cement? Well I for one can't wait to hear what it is because I have no idea... I expected foam. The new ply support for the rudder looks super spiffy and great job as usual. Needed doing.
Hi Mads! Did you not receive any of my emails? Please send me a reply by all means!!
looks like ferrocement
I'm never first :( Thanks Mads, you are my favourite uploaded.
Great vlog as usual mads 😀😀 she will be a pretty solid boat when your finished with her ,better than new ,great vlog again from your friend in Ireland
You should get a significant Paycheck ... for it is a huge Bosch-Ad
He is being very transparent and I feel honest about this...he used Bosch before...I love that Bosch has provided him with some gear.
Hardly. So they supplied a couple hand tools. He acknowledged that. He used a lot of their tools previously. For the amount of money he has invested in the project, the value of the tools is miniscule.
You could accuse him of having a huge West (edit) System advert because he shows their stuff all the time as he uses it.
His videos are a great diary and source of information for all those who are interested, and looking for a resource for information on how to reconstruct a sailboat.
WEST System epoxy isn't made by West Marine, although they sell it. Two totally unrelated companies. West System epoxy is an industry standard, they don't need any advertising. Plus, if they were providing free swag to every amateur TH-cam Channel out there doing boast repairs with West Epoxy they would be bankrupt.
I hope he does. He deserves plenty for the effort he puts in to these videos. Very talented guy. Makes everything he does interesting.
thx. Brain fart. I meant to type "system". I realized it a few minutes ago, and you beat me to correcting. :-)
That stuff is called dough. There is another channel that have just done their rudder in a Westerley
The channel is called just about sailing 2018 rudder repairs
th-cam.com/video/kBOuHxzNRcg/w-d-xo.html
What I think is funny is that you have people who obviously look forward to seeing your video on a Sunday, but only 1 in 3 put a thumbs up, funny isn’t it.
Jonathan Tithecott not really, a thumbs up puts it into a list of favorite videos, then you have all these favorite videos that you can put into other lists but that’s just bore to do. So you favorite video list of useless as special ones you want to go back to, dunno xmas I doing it wrong!
Cheers warren
Why are you opening this rudder?
I think he mentioned this before. There are rust stains on the rudder which leads to possible corrosion on the tangs inside the rudder. This would be a dangerous situation if they break and then had no control of the rudder while sailing. I saw a good video from Andy from boat works today where he slices away the fiberglass and replaces the high density foam...it shows a good peek of what is inside a rudder
How was the diesel soaked plywood addressed in the end? [ i must have missed it]
Thrilling! Is it same kind of concrete as on a ferrocement boat? Or is more like gas-concrete? Or is it just a heavy density foam that’s plastered with fine concrete?
Nice, great inspiration!!
Ferrous Concrete? Just a guess.
Ferro cement rudder?
It just occurred to me that you're meetup in LA is the day after St Patricks.
Best advice: don't pick an Irish pub for your venue.
Dropped the rudder... hihi.
I work for Caramba. I'm proud to see it in my favorite youtube channel :-)
What is the Caramba. Is it a penetrating oil? We use a lot of PB Blaster here in the USA for penetrating oil purposes. It works well but sometimes I find items that need to be treated repeated over a period of several days (or even a couple of weeks in difficult cases) to allow the penetrants to seep into joints.
Early! Yay!
When Athenas refit is Sea worthy are you planning to eventually circumnavigate?
Quick tip about the 3M mask, get pre filters for the larger filters, it will save them from dust, and let them just absorb fumes, you will want this even if you are just painting, seeing as there is a lot of dust just hanging around in the air . Second keep them in a bag when not in use, and if you have them trow in a pack of "do not eat" (desiccant pack from some other random parcel), this will keep them from absorbing moisture when not in use, and will help in getting more life out of the filters.
Marius Egeland.
I worked with full face masks, and from experience I can tell you that filter + pre filter your breathing becomes harder and get exhausted faster.
Well I only used them for around 2-3 hours at a time when welding and sometimes when we did painting work where I worked, so never really tested without the pre filters. I just wanted to give my to cents
Ahh, a mystery substance in the rudder 😕⁉ Can't wait to find out what that is.
Mads - great work. Maybe you have said such already, but I assume you are using "marine" grade plywood.
I think it would make perfect sense for a yard to fill the rudder with concrete... It's very stable and never rots or rusts..
But I have no clue as well.
It'll be concrete, to add to the mass, density and weight of the rudder
Gets fantasy vacuum; uses it as a saw horse while saw and routing dust goes everywhere - lol
Another good video.