Interesting note on Radagon: Godfrey is always addressed as first Elden Lord, while Radagon is addressed as second Elden Lord only to be descriptive, it's not titular. His title is often primarily being her Consort. Him being Elden Lord comes off like a technicality or an afterthought. He's primarily First Consort
I have an alternate explanation for Radagon and Marika that contradicts what Sophie thinks. I think that Radagon and Marika were always the same person and then at some point Radagon split off from Marika and got his own body, but then when Godfrey lost his grace Marika recalled him and fused with him again. My main evidence for thinking this, at least from in-game lore, is Rennala's amber egg. Miriel, the Pastor of Vows, says that Radagon "bequeathed" Rennala the amber egg when he left her, and the Great Rune of the Unborn's item description says that it is the amber egg clutched by Rennala. Why would Radagon have this? This egg appears to actually be a Great Rune, something that should be part of the Elden Ring, and yet Radagon already has it way before the Elden Ring is shattered since he gives it to Rennala before he leaves her to become the second Elden Lord. If Radagon is just a champion of the Erdtree, a stooge for Marika to boss around, then why would he have a fragment of the Elden Ring on hand to pawn off to Rennala as an apology for cucking her? I think that Radagon was always part of Marika and that as part of her plans she used the Great Rune of the Unborn to split off a part of herself, shaped it into Radagon, and gave it life and thoughts of its own. Tellingly, the Twinned set (the D twins' set) states that "They are of two bodies and two minds, but one single soul." We know from this that it's possible for Radagon and Marika to have very different personalities and motivations even though they share the same soul and are fundamentally the same person. Furthermore this would explain their relationship dynamic and how Marika was able to compel Radagon to return to Leyndell and become her Elden Lord even though he was apparently very happy with his union with Rennala. This also explains why the Golden Order would look so favorably on the state of D's bodies and soul when the rest of the world shunned the twins as an aberration.
Yes, finally someone else who also sees this. I've been thinking about this forever. I actually think that the reason the Mohg and Morgott and Melania and Miquella are born with these ailments/curses is because the Rune of the Unborn was removed from the Elden Ring as it is responsible for perfect births.
I agree with this theory and would like to add to this,1: I suspect that radagon was originally the balance rune around all the others and was created near the end of the war of the giants to protect marika from the gaints curse.2: marika creating radagon with the balance rune may have been the catalyst for the two fingers to help in the creation of the godskins to take marika down
The actual timeline for the "shattering" of the Elden Ring is so weird, I mean half of the lore acts like Marika did it after the death of Godwyn but there's so much evidence she was doing it beforehand, through both the Amber Egg and through the removal of Destined Death. I also wish they would at least hint at how the shardbearers got the shards; were they called by Marika and she gave them one, or what? I can't imagine how awkward that family reunion would have been since Mohg and Morgott would have been imprisoned for a long time leading up to that... Regarding the D twins, I pick up an implication that they are some kind of artificial life, such as an Albinauric or Silver Tear. If you watch the video where Zullie goes over their face data, both have pale skin, white hair, and pale eyes. This may help explain why they are 2 bodies with a single soul and why D's brother is found in one of the Eternal Cities.
@@TheBboySpooky I agree that is why I subscribe to the idea that radagon was created from marika using the balance rune to protect her from the giants curse, it helps give reason for stuff down the line, like why marika went down the path to trying to understand the golden order most likely by slowly taking the elden ring apart and why the two fingers helped to create the godskins as they were opposed to what marika had done
im still watching this video but i want to say thanks to everyone in the comments (i think i read them all so far) for the kind words about the new art! love you guys!
This is probably the subject I’m most wanting an answer for in Elden ring , I want to know why I must get hammered by a redhead who from my understanding should want the default ending, all I want to do is fix the shiny thing and give stone lady bac her hed man
Honestly thinking more about it I think there is a simple answer: we swung first. It didn’t open the door when we knocked, so we burnt its house down, then came in to say hi. So that’s a fairly reasonable reason we get our face hammered in by a pious ginger. The more interesting question then is why weren’t we let in? Was it waiting for a specific person? Was it just content to have us kill the demigods? Was it preoccupied somewhere else? Idk.
Marika wants to usurp the greater will, radagon is the other half of Marika that was cast away by removing the rune of balance, and he wants to serve the greater will, radagon lives his life to be with renala but is called back to Marika to be the next elden lord. Radagon doesn't want to but they are the same soul so he must return, yet leaves the rune of the unborn as a parting gift for renalla. Because that rune is left with renalla Marika can no longer have a perfect birth because of that missing rune, creating the omens and cursing miquella and malenia. Radagon at the end seems to be totally missing half of his body during the final fight, me thinks Marika is still out there, happy that the greater will has been conquered, and is ready to pounce.
@@georgev3433 radagon locked the erd tree up. Look at the radagon statues and the design of what's behind him. It's the same as the the statues and matches when he grabs the hammer in the fight.
yeah.. i'm still gonna die on the Hill of ''Radagon was always Marika''. Enia says, the dami gods are all the direct offspring of Marika, including radagons kids. so yeah
I am of a mind that Radagon was created by Marika using parts of herself, parts loyal to the Golden Order, that she puts aside when she dove into the deeper mysteries of the Golden Order.
A small addendum to the whole stasis idea the end of the podcast: I don't think its coincidental that attempting to burn the Erdtree doesn't work until Destined Death is unsealed. So my take would be that even the Erdtree itself was caught in the same stasis as the rest of the lands between, where things don't really change, or if they do it takes eons. Plus with stuff not dying properly, the whole aspect of the Erdtree consuming the dead might be frozen as well. Which sort of makes me thing that Marika removed the Rune of Death not simply a way to keep her children / herself from dying, but as a way to possible subvert the Greater Will's plans, or at least stall "it" until she "search(ed) the depths of the Golden Order".
Love the new pixel art! ✨ Low key, it’s kind of amazing Sophie predicted the Marika/Radagon gender fluidity all the way back at the announcement trailer. It’s kind of bonkers to realize how much that initial announcement told us and how consistent it was with the final game.
I happened to be rather bummed out about lower back pain. So the reminder to stretch and hydrate and keep posture felt so kind it was just what I needed. Really warmed my heart and gave me peace. This lore videos are always a cozy comfy happy time.
I've watched this one several times over at this point, and now I can't stop saying "spice, spice baby" anytime I hear the song, which has suddenly started showing up randomly around me in my life. Funny/sus how life works like that sometimes. 😂
The earliest history of Radagon comes from his marriage to Rennala. There's zero information about Radagon prior to his marriage, and even then he had a secret to hide. I still think that Radagon was always an aspect of Marika. The dialogue in the bedroom is cryptic. "Thou art yet to become me," this is a confusing way of saying "You don't have full control of my body." It's possible she was afraid the Radagon part of her personality would completely take over, which is why she says "Let us both be shattered," and shatters the Elden Ring. "Leal Hound of the Golden Order" doesn't necessarily mean he is loyal to Marika. The Golden Order is a set of laws, Marika is a person. It's clear by the end of the game that Marika is at odds with both Radagon and the Golden Order. My theory is that Radagon manifested when Marika began to have doubts about the Golden Order, so it's like the Elden Beast's influence trying to force her will.
You guys make my life better. Always puts a smile on my face when I listen to your stuff. Plus, regardless of any dlc proving Sophie wrong, the lore theories are amazing.
radagon has a hammer... marika taught him the ways of the elden ring.... she's the katekyo... he's the hitman.... depending on your ending, you/they get reborn.
I sorta think the key thing about the echo of Marika in the Bedchamber is that she says, while Radagon is yet to become her, or a God, he's already her other half. Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half I suppose that could be because they were already married at that point, but. It doesn't seem to be the case that Godfrey ever fused with Marika and Miriel is confused about why a "mere champion" like Radagon would be worthy of marrying her. My take is that Radagon is. Or, was. Basically Marika's Mimic Tear. The Mimic Veil is an item we know is associated with Marika. We find the Mimic Tear in an Eternal City with the Numen. Marika is a Numen.
The people of the Eternal City are not Numen; they're called Nox in game and their body template in the character creator is called "Nightfolk." Marika's Hammer's description specifically says that the Numen hail from a land outside of the Lands Between. I don't know where people are getting the idea that the Eternal Cities are connected to the Numen but as far as I can tell there is no support for it in the game itself.
@@quintonhoffert6526 In the game files, all the Nox NPCs are called stuff like "MarikaLineageMan", "MarikaLineageWoman" and "MarikaLineageSlime". (Ah yes, the three genders) Then there's the cut questline involving the Silver Tear, Asimi th-cam.com/video/1z9IG6Rnnac/w-d-xo.html ...Then there's just the fact that Marika and Radagon look kinda look like they're made of some sort of metal or stone, just like the mimic tears and silver tears do. "Far outside the lands between" could probably mean "straight down" just as much as any of the cardinal directions. I don't think we ever really go under the Lake of Rot for example.
Godfrey was aware of Marika's plot to betray the Greater Will. She tells Godfrey that he is divested of grace, will fight and die elsewhere, and finally return to reclaim the Lands Between. Cut dialogue from Godfrey basically spells out the plot for all Tarnished to return to the Lands Between and claim the Elden Ring, implying he knew of Marika's plot and was complicit in it. Marika is also the one extending grace to the player character, not the the Erdtree/Greater Will, and curses Hewg to create a god-slaying weapon, implying again that she wants the Greater Will out of the Lands Between.
My personal interpretation of Marika and Radagon relationship is that at some point in the past Marika created Radagon from splitting away something of herself (Kami-sama Piccolo style) and set him out into the world and kind of forgot about him for a while, maybe he wasn`t what she expected, he wasn`t a God, but then Radagon started having babies with Renalla and Marika realized she could make Empyreans with him so she called him back and essentially married herself. I think that explains why their children came out with birth defects, it was technically incest, twincest at that.
The 2 are like Adam & Eva. But in this case Marika was born first, then she created Radagon (or the Greater Will split their Avatar into 2 as a prevention measure)
What seems to be interesting is that Order and the Golden Order might be two slightly different things. The Elden Beast is supposed to be the embodiment of Order in the Lands Between and Marika is its chosen champion. The early days are the days of blind belief in Order. What seems to happen then is that Marika wants to understand this Order. She fuses with Radagon who develops the Golden Order, together with its tenets of regression and causality. All of the Golden Order items are related to Radagon specifically and not that much to Marika. Also, Golden Order incantations all rely on both intelligence and faith. I wonder why Radagon was the key to understanding Order. Does it have something to do with his relationship with Rennala and with him studying at Raya Lucaria? Was incorporating sorceries (which rely on intelligence) and star-related things into the Order a part of understanding Order as a whole, resulting in the creation of the Golden Order?
I feel like the warrior jar's assimilation of champions into their crucible bellies is related to the fusion of Radagon and Marika. In the ending boss cinematic Radika's arms even look like the molten arms of the jars. Also, something about Marika's words about Radagon not being ready to become her reminded me of the words you find on the jarwright puppet, "You are not yet ready to join the warriors inside. No, you must apply yourself! Better yourself, and one day I will return for you." It's also a bit reminiscent of her send off to Godfrey. Anywho, this chat was very enjoyable - gave me lots to think on. 😊
Lmao your Spanish "pyromancer academy" break legit made open my eyes, roll over, look directly into the light, go blind & then become VERY MUCH CONFUSED lol that there is no skip ad button, yet the title is the same. Bravo! Lol you got me
It took me some time to fully construct this idea. I've watched all of your videos since the dawn of time and I've been watching other people's videos on Elden Ring as well. I think I have a good idea what's up. Miyazaki-san has always leaned into Alchemy since early days, some of it is in the background of Dark Souls even. The alchemical idea at play for Marika and other Empyreans - those born of one god - is the homunculus. Originally a concept of tiny human beings (pygmy?), homunculi are seen as created beings. Homunculi are seen as analogous to Golem. All empyreans are created beings, like how the Albinaurics are created beings; Albinaurics were created by humans, not gods. My theory is that Marika created Radagon. Radagon begot Ranni on his own while charming Rennala; all done on Marika's orders. I believe her inspection of the Golden Order was a sign that she wanted to be free of the Greater Will, that the Elden Beast influenced the Lands Between through Marika and often without her consent - Marika was a puppet. Her act of creating Radagon allowed her to split the Greater Will's influence and control into two beings, weakening its power over her. Ranni's creation would bring about an age of Night that would see the Greater Will's influence cleansed from the lands. Her plot set in motion the undesired but needed deaths of Godwyn's soul and Ranni's flesh - this is her betrayal of Malekith. And though she knew Godwyn would die, her favored son from the times she thought the Golden Order might be just, she knew from the birth of Morgott and Mohg that something was wrong and that ill omens were on their way. She still wept for Godwyn despite knowing that this plot was hers. My only evidence I can think of off the top of my head is the principles of alchemy and the dialog in the chambers from Melina. The address to Radagon by Marika in their bedroom, "Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half". He's already her other half without becoming her yet. It could be a poetic phrase (other half like how we describe our spouses) that I've misinterpreted or it could be bad localization but I will ago with a strict reading of the dialog. That she acknowledges that he will become one with her AND he is her other half at the time of the dialog. Before the giant's curse, Radagon's hair was gold. Since this is George R.R. Martin we're talking about writing the lore, it might also be that Marika and Radagon shared a single placenta and were born twins from one god - each the other one's other half. The incest-adjacent disfigurements could be the cause of Malenia and Miquella's congenital defects. A demigod is not a god. An empyrean is not a god. Only an Empyrean may ascend to godhood - though it seems a bit more democratic at that point (and it seems that an empyrean can only ever wield a true gods power (become their vassal) while never actually becoming an actual, otherworldly fifth dimensional being themselves.)
One of the best lore videos I’ve seen on elden ring. Please keep it up! I’d love to see a video discussing all of the outer gods, the origins of the divine towers and/or the two fingers or something like that. Great stuff though 👍👍
Your description of the golden order and the legion of erdtrees on other planes or planets is a direct parallel to the hraangan hiveminds from GRRM thousand worlds universe. I don’t think that’s a coincidence at all (at least in their purpose and function within the narrative)
I need a new age of the order of the Little Slug (I LOVED so much this video, Best lore and Best jokes all together, that's the true perfect balance of the world!)
The Golden Order itself was also created by Marika. Enia tells us that the Rune of Death was plucked by the Golden Order upon its creation. Before Marika edited the 'program' to her liking, the Elden Ring was probably just pure Order. Which is represented in the 'Primordial Colours' of Red + Gold, that the Crucible Knights present in their weapons and armour.
I absolutely love listening to your channel~ I planned on sticking to your Bloodborne and Dark Souls content at first, because I couldn’t get my fingers on a copy of Elden Ring right at the release. I didn’t want to spoil anything for myself, but it turns out the lands between are so vast: and it has such an abundance of fascinating characters and enemies…. I feel lucky to have your interpretations and explanations to listen to! The sneak peek I listened to only made me feel a bit more prepared to take in the experience. You are always so thoughtful and articulate, I’ve reached new levels of appreciation for my favorite games- all thanks to you sharing these lovely conversations! Thank you so much!
I've been avidly listening to your lore since jsf was doing Bloodborne up close and bickering with Redgrave. Everytime you two post a new video you make my day :>
so glad I found this channel during the elden ring lore-splosion. You guys make a great team and I've gone back now and listened to a ton of the old stuff too. Sure. Maybe I am in the group of people who listen to you long form at work
Another interesting circumstance with Renala and Radagon is him leaving the great rune of rebirth with her. I agree that they would have to be different people for the reason Sophie stated. Maybe just how she created Radagon? Great podcast!
I think this might be the first time my interpretation of events differs from you guys so much. I think it's because so much stuff is still up in the air.
There was something about Radan learning from the sorceres of Sellia something about 'what lays in the stars' and that he decided to use his knowledge of gravity magic for holding the stars. Can't find the source ATM but I don't think I've just dreamed up that info.
The Remembrance of Radahn says that he learned gravity magic in his younger years in Sellia, while some gravity sorceries mention he was trained by an Alabaster Lord specifically. His original motivation per the Remembrance was to continue to be able to ride his beloved, scrawny horse, but from my knowledge nothing in game tells us outright why he challenged the stars and kept them still.
Your retention rate comment made me feel like one of the cool kids, cuz I'm new but can't stop listening to these all the way through, even if I wanted to (I don't want to though lol).
Like the Erdtree, like the Glintstone, like the Scarlet Rot, I see Radagon as a parasite, embedded into Marika to consume her from the inside out. Maybe the Outer Will could not remove Marika as a God once she had been established so the next best thing was to have a chosen loyalist consume her form to carry the Golden Order, not unlike the Erdtree possibly consuming the Crucible to exist.
Never noticed the 2 and 3 fingers on Radagons hammer slam design as I never got a good look. It's interesting because beast gained intelligence when they got five fingers and it seems they have a big association with 5 fingers which we know about from the beast dagger that I dare not spell here because I'm too lazy to google the item name.
Just my personal headcanon: Marika and Radagon have always been the same being. Two bodies with distinct minds and wills, but share the same soul. This explains why Ranni is a Demigod even if Rennala isn’t. It’s because Radagon is her father. I think that after the Greater Will made Marika the Queen Goddess, Marika separated from Radagon to further her machinations using Godfrey’s strength to remove any and all opposition. After Marika had no further use for him, she revoked his Grace making him the first tarnished. Had Maliketh defeat the Gloam Eyed Queen to take the power of Black Flame from her since black flame could kill gods. Imbued the rune of Death into Maliketh’s sword and had him guard it so no god could be killed. Radagon was called forth to replace Godfrey as King consort and second Elden Lord allowing Marika to be both queen and king simultaneously. Tasked smithing master Hewg with making a weapon to slay a God to end the Elden Beast thus removing herself from the Greater Will’s hold over her. This would allow her to Rule alone and unopposed but little ambitious Ranni had plans of her own that came to be known as the Night of the Black Knives. She stole a fragment of the rune of death to kill her empyrean body and place her soul into a doll while simultaneously killing her stepbrother godwyn’s soul but not his body. All this to sever the Greater Will’s connection, control and influence over the lands between. She envisions a new age, The Age of Stars.
What if the line Marika says of both being shattered is when the split happens? Maybe she separated part of herself in that moment and expected Radagon to be like a loyal puppet before calling him back
Very cool, thanks for doing this! I had come up with a different interpretation that is a lot, lot less kind to the Golden Order, but ends up being more of a tragic love story. The Golden Order sucks. It is super into labeling all kinds of things as heresy, blasphemy, impure, or cursed. They’re kinda fascist, when you get down to it. But a lot of the things they call heresy, like having aspects of the Crucible, are also crucial aspects of the Erdtree, which they see as the symbol of perfect order. Their ideology is incoherent and about to collapse under the strain of its own contradictions. Their central principals are causality and regression, but the secret of regression is that regression uses intelligence, not faith, and is therefore “heretical.” Regression, the tendency of things to break down into past forms, kinda like entropy, sounds a lot like the frenzied flame desire to destroy differences and reduce all to one unified whole. This state of all life being mixed together into one also sounds a lot like the Crucible. It is as if the Two Fingers and the Three Fingers are both representations of Causality and Regression, respectively, and life exists in the pull between the two impulses. Perhaps this is an epiphany to Markia while she investigates the depths of her faith, and she realizes that her perfect order is a lie and the children she rejected as cursed were in fact just different. To truly embody the true order or the world (and maybe punish herself out of grief about needlessly torturing her children), she needs to embody this push and pull, this breaking and making. Marika says to Radagon that she wants to become one with him by shattering themselves. A shattering may be a kind of regression, of returning to constituent parts, which can then be mixed together and remade. And Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, so shattering her also is shattering the ring, as we see in the cinematic where her own body crumbles while shattering the ring. Perhaps Marika and Radagon become one by entering a Crucible-like mixed together state, which is a heretical act according to the Golden Order, but also necessary to embody the true nature of their order. Marika shatters each of them and Radagon reforges them, together. But it doesn’t totally work out and they are reforged as an empty vessel, with the ring shards scattered already. The only rune in the Erdtree is Marika’s rune, which the now unified Marika/Radagon is hanged from (maybe a rune of resurrection? The symbol of Marika hanging from the arc mirrors her rune image on her scarseal and soreseal, and is also the stake that brings players back to life in the world). An embodiment of a dying, empty order, after all. But they have each other, in a (perhaps rapturous) state of being mixed together, and Radagon seals the Erdree door to reject every part of the world other then themselves. When thev player arrives with the runes, the ring is restored in Radagon.
Nice. Well thought out and backed up. I sided with ranni because she was blue and offered to take me to the moon. Also she played super hard to get and talked down to me until I win her over through gratuitous violence
After listening to many lore vids, from you guys I have noticed a trend in communication style. It is Simply Positive! Sin uses "Thank You" (Great Respect) often and Sophie uses the "Yeah" acknowledgment, a ton. Is this your deep-down secret subliminal good vibe technique.? Seriously it really works! Pass one of those special brownies, Please. So Yeah, Thank You!
You gotta think Marika and Rennalla were at war for many years then there's a peace and she marries someone from the golden order then he leaves and breaks he heart and everything changes but notice that there are no Stakes of Makria in her Academy not even broken ones so Rennalla never got over her anger for Marika so she never had any stakes installed in her academy during her marriage because of her hatred
omg this was great, i love the style of the presentation and the art, and you were both really fun to listen to. It also helped me nail down my thoughts about marika/radagon. I kinda disagree that they started out as strictly two different people, but only because i think part of the point is that we're supposed to argue about that? Like it's a reference to different christian sects arguing about whether jesus is literally god come to earth or god's human son or prophet or something in between. In my mind Marika and Radagon are like a mix of the archetypes of god the father-god the son, the king who disguises himself as a commoner to walk among his people, the girl who lives in the guise of a man/soldier, and just sort of a general divine androgyne. I think i find the idea of them being in some way truly one person playing two roles, who also sometimes thinks of themself (and apparently talks to themself) as if they truly were two more interesting than just having radagon be some poor sap marika assimilated yknow? so basically i think ur initial genderqueer prediction was just fully 100% on the money lol
Elden Ring has simple chronology, thankfully. Merika took the Grace from Godrfrey & his army after they defeated the giants. Now without grace, she banishes them as Tarnished & orders them to one day return seeking to conquer the Lands Between. When Merika breaks the Elden Ring, it fuses her & Ratagon together backwards in time with the Elden Ring Itself as represented by Causality (Merika) & Regression (Radagon). Make sense? Redahn froze the stars to protect the Sorcery Town of Sellia from divine punishment & live happily with his horse (because his is powerful but shortsighted) but this prevented Miquella from becoming a god so Malenia bloomed in Caelid, leaving herself in a coma & Redahn crazy with grief, so Mogwhyn snuck past sleeping Malenia & stole Miquella.
I too thought maybe Godfrey rejected the concept of merging with Marika. Perhaps she was in fact his last great opponent & this was why he was banished. Her concession to the Tarnished perhaps showing that despite his refusal she still had love for him or something. So happy to be able to enjoy these now that I've finally finished the game! Loving the new animation ☺
I am inclined to agree, even though I think there just isn't enough evidence to be certain. I think the problem with them being separate entities is Marika's motivations. Why would she claim him in the first place? It seems to me that its not clear if the Golden Order itself is the reason Marika concentrated that much power (and wage so many wars). Marika's investigation of the Golden Order doesn't seem to just be a philosophical understanding of the laws of the world, it looks like its also an exploration and an introspection on the desires to conquer and expand her influence: are these desires Marika's own ambitions or is it the Greater Will's ambitions embedded within the ring? I think that is left open to communicate how abstract the question of agency really is, specially given the immaterial nature of the Outer Gods. Because of her being suspicious of the order and Radagon being loyal to it, the ambiguity of Marika/ Radagon at the same time humanizes and abstract both characters. It seems to offer an interesting parrallel to DS's lore, where, to an extent, Gwyn and the lords take the power of the fire for granted.
I think she knew she would lose grace from her plan being enacted and after her 1st husband refused to fuse and break the Golden Order's... Well, order's... And went to Radagon because he would have no choice but to obey. After the plan was enacted and the Elden Ring was broken, she knew she'd lose grace so she fused with someone that would be able to still manifest the Elden Ring and obey her commands instead of being an independent Elden Lord. Thoughts?
I'm a devoted listener, and this is great and thought-provoking, but I dispute elements of this theory because I think the obvious reading of Radagon's obsession with secrecy regarding his marital affairs when he was married to Rennala is that he was Marika at that time. Also, the description for the "Occult Marika's Hammer" suggests that Radagon's warhammer during his campaigns was in fact a version of Marika's weapon. (Accordingly, I think this has impact to how we understand Ranni's parentage.)
knowledge of that which is absolutely true is restrictive; the darkness of uncertainty is that which forms the backdrop for the certainties of the Golden Order. the Law of Regression is shown to be associated with hidden things and convergence without understanding, while the Law of Causality represents its opposite: it only functions once it is True that you have been Damaged beyond a given Absolute Value that allows the spell to function. Radagon is clearly indicated to be aligned with the Law of Causality: he Breaks the Golden Order, which irreversibly increases the entropy of the Order itself (the fly in the ointment, as it were) and moves time forwards, while Marika is consistently coded using the Law of Regression, associated with That Which Was and That Which One Returns To; she is if not the very one, among the First names you learn, and the Last about whom you learn anything or, for that matter, get to interact with. Putting her back together - an act of Regression in defiance of Causality - is the core act of basically every ending; how you do it and whether or not you have any intention of doing so in the first place are the core questions that determine your ending, after all, aren't they? Marika is Radagon, yet they are separate and required reunion, like how for every tick there is an accompanying tock. She ticks, and when she runs out of momentum, he tocks; when he is done, she may tick once more. She is the Most Godlike Character in the Pantheon, and he is the Least Godlike: zenith and nadir of the Sphere of the Celestials created by the Greater Order's existence. There's no better reason, if she sought to understand herself and the Elden Beast whose darkness keeps her blind to the existence of the other Erdtrees, ironically enough, because the room was filled with too much light to see them - an error the Beast corrects by spewing out plenty of astral darkness at the beginning of your fight. It no longer seems to matter whether or not they were originally separate people. Maybe Radagon was where her timeline began, and when he ascended to the throne of Elden Lord, he satisfies the closed loop of their own existence and bootstraps their paradox into at least semi-rational spacetime. He became a god, and while that is true, he may regress freely to the state of being Marika, which she always was and was waiting for him to learn over the course of his finite existence before apotheosis (still fulfilling "thour't yet to become a god; thour't yet to become me") She was holding the second hand on a clock representing their collective experience as they are iterated through and then become part of the Greater Will just to figure out how it works, how much driving force does it have? Will the Hand break if I do this? And that will was manifest within Radagon, within the universe she had come from when once known by that name, to the point where she needed to accept who she was in order to keep the clock ticking. The Greater Will is just the automated control of the Outer Gods after all; the Elden Beast, one of theirs sent to clean up this corner of the Lands Between without being bothered enough to handle it directly, and Marika only considered "of another world" rather than being a more home-grown type of god for being the only one we are told directly houses the Greater Will; this is what makes it so interesting that it was found in the darkness inside Radagon rather than in plain sight where we expected and were indeed told we would find it. Knowledge of that could blind nearly everyone into believing Marika was born of another world, yet she bears more resemblance to those who live in the Lands than the Gods with whom she is associated. She is Other, Radagon is Not. Kind of eggy vibe, is it not? 🥚😘✨️
2 things: 1. The war with the Dragons was probably first because the dragons had control of the elden beast before Marika. Why would they let Marika take control from them and then like 40 years later declare war? 2. The golden order being flawed is because of a fickleness of the Gods not of the demi Gods. So Either Marika, Radagon or the Greater Will was too fickle not the demiGods.
I'm a bit late to the party 🥳🎉🎉 buuuuut I've officially given up all hope of getting a PC that can handle this beastly game. Console is maaaaybe possible, but I've given in to any and all spoilers/theory's....so go nuts #SnackCovenant !!!
Hi Sofie! I appreciate that little break there. I'm new! I wanted to ask if you're a fellow Aussie? This is totally interesting btw. I'm itching to get back into my game but I can't play much atm 😅 *Edit. "... and that's when the Golden Order pisses off." Bahaha-! Howdy fellow Aussie! Hope you're doing well out there ^u^
Hi welcome to the snack covenant! :) Yes Sophie is from Australia. If you like our stuff, feel free to look around, grab some snacks, we have a discord and stuff! Make yourself at home!
@@SinclairLore i was just watching the Winter Lanterns video until I had to go looking for Bayu Bayushki Bayu. I love the format and how y'all bring up possible connections I've never thought of! Was trying to find correct spelling for names lol, it's Sophie and Sin? Thank you very much. The statue sitting/standing joke made me LOL 😂🤭😆
@@madmorgo6233 Glad you like the stuff! Yup I'm Sin (Sinclair), and Sophie (Sophie Pilbeam) is my cohost :) If you're new, don't worry about all the inside references and random pixel characters, it will become clear when you watch the podcasts XD
Very interesting analysis here as usual. I think the idea that the Greater Will is colonizing other worlds with Erdrees is a huge reach though, it’s based off very little other than the imagery of the final bossfight (which could mean any number of things, I interpreted it as roots). There's nothing other than that to suggest that there are other worlds with Erdtrees on them.
LONG LORE THEORY COMMENT AHEAD there are some details in the game that make me think marika was grief-stricken by godwyn's _undeath_ rather than his death, and she actually wanted him to die to begin with, even if it may have been hard for her to make that choice 1. there's a spirit in limgrave that calls him "[marika's] unwanted child," which could imply some kind of emotional detachment, but i don't think so. it may just mean that godwyn should not be alive _right now,_ either because his current form is a curse to all life or because he was simply not meant to survive at all 2. the finger reader crone in deeproot depths doesn't lament that godwyn was supposed to live forever as a demigod, but that, as a demigod, he was supposed to _truly die,_ as "as a martyr to destined death." the finger readers you find are always fundamentalist dipshits that even get mad at you for crossing the forbidden lands, so that means the golden order _wanted godwyn dead_ 3. miquella created the golden epitaph sword when he was young, imbued with a prayer for his brother to "die a true death," but he also petitioned castle sol to bring an eclipse and revive godwyn, promising the head of the castle passage to the haligtree. we know that miquella used to be a fundamentalist and then left, creating his own order and generally going against the golden order. this means that, when miquella was with the golden order, he wanted godwyn's body to die, and after leaving the golden order, he wanted to revive his soul instead. it could be because those who live in death are oppressed by the order and the order of unalloyed gold would want to help them on those grounds, but given the deeproot finger reader's dialogue, there might be more to it 4. the black knife assassins are said to have personal close ties to marika. given the points above, plus the fact that they eventually go after ranni and their ringleader is imprisoned in carian territory, as well as the fact that maliketh apparently got betrayed by marika again _after_ she relegated him to the sole purpose of guarding death, i think the assassination was marika's own idea, and ranni was moreso responsible for the ritual than she was for the logistics of the plot my conclusion: marika wanted godwyn to die as a martyr to destined death, which seems to be in line with her rebellion against her previous role, bringing death to the age of glistening life and eternity. she chose a ring of fellow numen with close ties to her to carry out the deed, and ranni was involved as a co-conspirator to aid with the theft of the rune of death and imbue its power into their daggers. however, ranni only got involved because she had her own ulterior motives: having access with the power to kill a demigod and knowing exactly when another demigod would die, so that, when the time of the assassination came, she could use the rune of death on herself as well, making sure that the cursemark would be split in two and only killing her body, just like she wanted. this, as a side effect, sabotaged the plot to kill a demigod, turning what was supposed to become an icon of the power of destined death in opposition to the golden order into a show of horrifying defilement that only made the lands between _more_ stagnant than they already were, possibly even meaning that marika sacrificed her own beloved son for absolutely nothing. that's why she could have felt so desperate that she no longer bothered to plan a careful, meticulous plot against the greater will, and instead simply went and shattered the elden ring without warning
I think my interpretation of Marika is completely different. She seems more like a prisoner than the one who is pulling the strings. Marika is strung up on a half ring cross and stabbed by the Elden Beast to keep her in place. When threatened, Radagon steps in to try and stop you who is also helped by the Elden Beast. It seems that Marika is imprsioned by the Elden Beast. As an empyrean she is possessed by the Greater Will (an outer god) and a vessel for the Elden ring. It also seems like Radagon is more doing this for the Greater Will’s benefit more than anything. He is after all the high priest (for lack of a better term) of the Golden Order. And yes, Godfrey lost grace, but what’s to say that was Marika’s fault? It seems more like a mistake than anything. Godfrey purposefully took Serosh on his shoulder so that he wouldn’t be the violent Horoux Loux, not that he’s always after power.
Few thoughts: firstly, is there anyway to know that the fingers are actually interfacing with the Greater Will, or are we simply trusting intermediaries, mediums (finger readers), and the Golden Order. Also there's a weird part of the order that both kind of works like a static faith and a natural-science group. Regardless, the Greater Will seems to demonstrable to exist but the fingers seem unreliable. The game clearly insinuates that as well with Varre too, just in a certain context. Also what ever happened with that weird dagger that they patched out that was beneath the Beastial Sanctum that you had to parkour to that referenced something about five fingers? Why would they patch that out? I got it on my first playthrough but I wonder if that was intended. It seems relevant to the Fingers
Gold mask is a directly in touch with the greater will, he moves his arms to kind of get better connection to the will like an antenna. Not to different from how the fingers communicate
![Discussing Ranni's Age of the Stars [Elden Ring Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SZ7Wb7SuP04/mqdefault.jpg)
![Discussing Ranni's Age of the Stars [Elden Ring Lore]](/img/tr.png)
![Radagon and Imperfection: Can He Be Complete? [Elden Ring Lore / Analysis]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vq5lw5WziMU/mqdefault.jpg)
![fellow fellow - พรุ่งนี้ไม่มีใครรู้ feat. INK WARUNTORN [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QP6JyjYx_W0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 87 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องชัย vs โชคปรีชา"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YN6e7HVnekw/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Gloam-Eyed Queen: Why Did She Hold Death Before Maliketh? [Elden Ring Lore]](/img/n.gif)
► Please don't forget to 🌸Like🌸 and 🌸Subscribe🌸 it really helps us out
I love the new background with the erdtree and the Sophie and Sin characters in the costumes!!!!!
Marika is Velka
🧙♂️
@@ethanrumley746 don’t worry on this channel 5 years from now we WILL still be discussing these theories and I fucking love it
@@iseeopenings3921 I unironically think the Elden Beast is Mergo's Wetnurse
Interesting note on Radagon: Godfrey is always addressed as first Elden Lord, while Radagon is addressed as second Elden Lord only to be descriptive, it's not titular. His title is often primarily being her Consort. Him being Elden Lord comes off like a technicality or an afterthought. He's primarily First Consort
I have an alternate explanation for Radagon and Marika that contradicts what Sophie thinks. I think that Radagon and Marika were always the same person and then at some point Radagon split off from Marika and got his own body, but then when Godfrey lost his grace Marika recalled him and fused with him again.
My main evidence for thinking this, at least from in-game lore, is Rennala's amber egg. Miriel, the Pastor of Vows, says that Radagon "bequeathed" Rennala the amber egg when he left her, and the Great Rune of the Unborn's item description says that it is the amber egg clutched by Rennala. Why would Radagon have this? This egg appears to actually be a Great Rune, something that should be part of the Elden Ring, and yet Radagon already has it way before the Elden Ring is shattered since he gives it to Rennala before he leaves her to become the second Elden Lord. If Radagon is just a champion of the Erdtree, a stooge for Marika to boss around, then why would he have a fragment of the Elden Ring on hand to pawn off to Rennala as an apology for cucking her?
I think that Radagon was always part of Marika and that as part of her plans she used the Great Rune of the Unborn to split off a part of herself, shaped it into Radagon, and gave it life and thoughts of its own. Tellingly, the Twinned set (the D twins' set) states that "They are of two bodies and two minds, but one single soul." We know from this that it's possible for Radagon and Marika to have very different personalities and motivations even though they share the same soul and are fundamentally the same person. Furthermore this would explain their relationship dynamic and how Marika was able to compel Radagon to return to Leyndell and become her Elden Lord even though he was apparently very happy with his union with Rennala. This also explains why the Golden Order would look so favorably on the state of D's bodies and soul when the rest of the world shunned the twins as an aberration.
Yes, finally someone else who also sees this. I've been thinking about this forever. I actually think that the reason the Mohg and Morgott and Melania and Miquella are born with these ailments/curses is because the Rune of the Unborn was removed from the Elden Ring as it is responsible for perfect births.
@@MelancholicAwesomnes oh snap! That could be
I agree with this theory and would like to add to this,1: I suspect that radagon was originally the balance rune around all the others and was created near the end of the war of the giants to protect marika from the gaints curse.2: marika creating radagon with the balance rune may have been the catalyst for the two fingers to help in the creation of the godskins to take marika down
The actual timeline for the "shattering" of the Elden Ring is so weird, I mean half of the lore acts like Marika did it after the death of Godwyn but there's so much evidence she was doing it beforehand, through both the Amber Egg and through the removal of Destined Death. I also wish they would at least hint at how the shardbearers got the shards; were they called by Marika and she gave them one, or what? I can't imagine how awkward that family reunion would have been since Mohg and Morgott would have been imprisoned for a long time leading up to that...
Regarding the D twins, I pick up an implication that they are some kind of artificial life, such as an Albinauric or Silver Tear. If you watch the video where Zullie goes over their face data, both have pale skin, white hair, and pale eyes. This may help explain why they are 2 bodies with a single soul and why D's brother is found in one of the Eternal Cities.
@@TheBboySpooky I agree that is why I subscribe to the idea that radagon was created from marika using the balance rune to protect her from the giants curse, it helps give reason for stuff down the line, like why marika went down the path to trying to understand the golden order most likely by slowly taking the elden ring apart and why the two fingers helped to create the godskins as they were opposed to what marika had done
im still watching this video but i want to say thanks to everyone in the comments (i think i read them all so far) for the kind words about the new art! love you guys!
ty for ur amazing work on the pixels!
@@SinclairLore ♥♥
LOVE the new ER background, and the new little character Sprites for you ladies look so good! Love it
That ad got me 😂
hehe glad you liked it!
@@SinclairLore I was listening while doing an assignment and was like wtf I can’t skip this 30 min ad 😂
@@ultimatedespairgamer6722 lmao!!! welcome to the snack covenant
This is probably the subject I’m most wanting an answer for in Elden ring , I want to know why I must get hammered by a redhead who from my understanding should want the default ending, all I want to do is fix the shiny thing and give stone lady bac her hed man
He asked the Soul of Cinder advice for what to do when the PC has the same goal as you.
@@georgev3433 That adds up...
Honestly thinking more about it I think there is a simple answer: we swung first. It didn’t open the door when we knocked, so we burnt its house down, then came in to say hi. So that’s a fairly reasonable reason we get our face hammered in by a pious ginger.
The more interesting question then is why weren’t we let in? Was it waiting for a specific person? Was it just content to have us kill the demigods? Was it preoccupied somewhere else? Idk.
Marika wants to usurp the greater will, radagon is the other half of Marika that was cast away by removing the rune of balance, and he wants to serve the greater will, radagon lives his life to be with renala but is called back to Marika to be the next elden lord. Radagon doesn't want to but they are the same soul so he must return, yet leaves the rune of the unborn as a parting gift for renalla. Because that rune is left with renalla Marika can no longer have a perfect birth because of that missing rune, creating the omens and cursing miquella and malenia. Radagon at the end seems to be totally missing half of his body during the final fight, me thinks Marika is still out there, happy that the greater will has been conquered, and is ready to pounce.
@@georgev3433 radagon locked the erd tree up. Look at the radagon statues and the design of what's behind him. It's the same as the the statues and matches when he grabs the hammer in the fight.
yeah.. i'm still gonna die on the Hill of ''Radagon was always Marika''.
Enia says, the dami gods are all the direct offspring of Marika, including radagons kids. so yeah
Marika's body looks a suprising amount like rani's puppet/doll body. Maybe Marika was literally a vessel.
I am of a mind that Radagon was created by Marika using parts of herself, parts loyal to the Golden Order, that she puts aside when she dove into the deeper mysteries of the Golden Order.
that what it seems to be pointing to to me
A small addendum to the whole stasis idea the end of the podcast: I don't think its coincidental that attempting to burn the Erdtree doesn't work until Destined Death is unsealed. So my take would be that even the Erdtree itself was caught in the same stasis as the rest of the lands between, where things don't really change, or if they do it takes eons.
Plus with stuff not dying properly, the whole aspect of the Erdtree consuming the dead might be frozen as well. Which sort of makes me thing that Marika removed the Rune of Death not simply a way to keep her children / herself from dying, but as a way to possible subvert the Greater Will's plans, or at least stall "it" until she "search(ed) the depths of the Golden Order".
I’ve spent hours of my nights thinking about Marika and Radagon. Can’t wait to see what Sophie cooked up this week
Same dude!
Love the new pixel art! ✨ Low key, it’s kind of amazing Sophie predicted the Marika/Radagon gender fluidity all the way back at the announcement trailer. It’s kind of bonkers to realize how much that initial announcement told us and how consistent it was with the final game.
I love the new pixel art!!! Holdsy does it again!
Just found this channel yesterday and I gotta say the PSA's throughout are actually low key hilarious
Awww ty!
The new pixel art looks really cool, would love to listen to you guys thoughts on the moon/glintstones in the future >
They're drinking out of the egg 😭🤣🔥 I love it so much!!
I happened to be rather bummed out about lower back pain. So the reminder to stretch and hydrate and keep posture felt so kind it was just what I needed. Really warmed my heart and gave me peace. This lore videos are always a cozy comfy happy time.
I've watched this one several times over at this point, and now I can't stop saying "spice, spice baby" anytime I hear the song, which has suddenly started showing up randomly around me in my life. Funny/sus how life works like that sometimes. 😂
the new sprites are fantastic! and it goes without saying but, wonderful analysis work as usual you two!
Glad you think so!
@@SinclairLore honestly I get more excited for a new SL video than I do anyone else’s, Vaati included 💁🏻♂️✨
@@varden506 aww thanks!!
The earliest history of Radagon comes from his marriage to Rennala. There's zero information about Radagon prior to his marriage, and even then he had a secret to hide.
I still think that Radagon was always an aspect of Marika. The dialogue in the bedroom is cryptic. "Thou art yet to become me," this is a confusing way of saying "You don't have full control of my body." It's possible she was afraid the Radagon part of her personality would completely take over, which is why she says "Let us both be shattered," and shatters the Elden Ring.
"Leal Hound of the Golden Order" doesn't necessarily mean he is loyal to Marika. The Golden Order is a set of laws, Marika is a person. It's clear by the end of the game that Marika is at odds with both Radagon and the Golden Order.
My theory is that Radagon manifested when Marika began to have doubts about the Golden Order, so it's like the Elden Beast's influence trying to force her will.
You guys make my life better. Always puts a smile on my face when I listen to your stuff. Plus, regardless of any dlc proving Sophie wrong, the lore theories are amazing.
awww ty
radagon has a hammer... marika taught him the ways of the elden ring.... she's the katekyo... he's the hitman.... depending on your ending, you/they get reborn.
lmao!! perfect
I sorta think the key thing about the echo of Marika in the Bedchamber is that she says, while Radagon is yet to become her, or a God, he's already her other half.
Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half
I suppose that could be because they were already married at that point, but. It doesn't seem to be the case that Godfrey ever fused with Marika and Miriel is confused about why a "mere champion" like Radagon would be worthy of marrying her.
My take is that Radagon is. Or, was. Basically Marika's Mimic Tear.
The Mimic Veil is an item we know is associated with Marika.
We find the Mimic Tear in an Eternal City with the Numen.
Marika is a Numen.
The people of the Eternal City are not Numen; they're called Nox in game and their body template in the character creator is called "Nightfolk." Marika's Hammer's description specifically says that the Numen hail from a land outside of the Lands Between. I don't know where people are getting the idea that the Eternal Cities are connected to the Numen but as far as I can tell there is no support for it in the game itself.
@@quintonhoffert6526 7/11 Numen's runes in the game are found in the underground areas/eternal cities, that is a connection
@@quintonhoffert6526 In the game files, all the Nox NPCs are called stuff like "MarikaLineageMan", "MarikaLineageWoman" and "MarikaLineageSlime".
(Ah yes, the three genders)
Then there's the cut questline involving the Silver Tear, Asimi
th-cam.com/video/1z9IG6Rnnac/w-d-xo.html
...Then there's just the fact that Marika and Radagon look kinda look like they're made of some sort of metal or stone, just like the mimic tears and silver tears do.
"Far outside the lands between" could probably mean "straight down" just as much as any of the cardinal directions.
I don't think we ever really go under the Lake of Rot for example.
I’m italian and the fake add …did to my brain the same thing that this Marika/Radagon thing did
Godfrey was aware of Marika's plot to betray the Greater Will. She tells Godfrey that he is divested of grace, will fight and die elsewhere, and finally return to reclaim the Lands Between. Cut dialogue from Godfrey basically spells out the plot for all Tarnished to return to the Lands Between and claim the Elden Ring, implying he knew of Marika's plot and was complicit in it. Marika is also the one extending grace to the player character, not the the Erdtree/Greater Will, and curses Hewg to create a god-slaying weapon, implying again that she wants the Greater Will out of the Lands Between.
My personal interpretation of Marika and Radagon relationship is that at some point in the past Marika created Radagon from splitting away something of herself (Kami-sama Piccolo style) and set him out into the world and kind of forgot about him for a while, maybe he wasn`t what she expected, he wasn`t a God, but then Radagon started having babies with Renalla and Marika realized she could make Empyreans with him so she called him back and essentially married herself. I think that explains why their children came out with birth defects, it was technically incest, twincest at that.
Another example of dual identities that I have yet to see brought up is Guraanq being Maliketh’s alter ego
Genuinely let out a roaring "HAH!" when I heard Sophie saying The Brilliant Goldmask in that voice 🤣
The 2 are like Adam & Eva. But in this case Marika was born first, then she created Radagon (or the Greater Will split their Avatar into 2 as a prevention measure)
I didn't understand what was happening during the ad section, but then I heard "dignity city" and I knew everything was going to be okay
Awww
What seems to be interesting is that Order and the Golden Order might be two slightly different things.
The Elden Beast is supposed to be the embodiment of Order in the Lands Between and Marika is its chosen champion. The early days are the days of blind belief in Order.
What seems to happen then is that Marika wants to understand this Order. She fuses with Radagon who develops the Golden Order, together with its tenets of regression and causality. All of the Golden Order items are related to Radagon specifically and not that much to Marika. Also, Golden Order incantations all rely on both intelligence and faith.
I wonder why Radagon was the key to understanding Order. Does it have something to do with his relationship with Rennala and with him studying at Raya Lucaria? Was incorporating sorceries (which rely on intelligence) and star-related things into the Order a part of understanding Order as a whole, resulting in the creation of the Golden Order?
I feel like the warrior jar's assimilation of champions into their crucible bellies is related to the fusion of Radagon and Marika. In the ending boss cinematic Radika's arms even look like the molten arms of the jars.
Also, something about Marika's words about Radagon not being ready to become her reminded me of the words you find on the jarwright puppet,
"You are not yet ready to join the warriors inside. No, you must apply yourself! Better yourself, and one day I will return for you."
It's also a bit reminiscent of her send off to Godfrey. Anywho, this chat was very enjoyable - gave me lots to think on. 😊
This is the best lore video I've seen yet
Hai Marc, ty :)
Look forward to catching up on the VOD, been a great month of content!
Lmao your Spanish "pyromancer academy" break legit made open my eyes, roll over, look directly into the light, go blind & then become VERY MUCH CONFUSED lol that there is no skip ad button, yet the title is the same. Bravo! Lol you got me
tyty! it was actually italian!
Tbh after hearing a lot of lore speculation, this take is the one I primarily find to be the most valid.
What do you guys think about a whole like 3 hr Soulsborne Q&A livestream for people with specific lore questions?
Thank you for the stretching interludes I do actually take the time to stretch!
It took me some time to fully construct this idea. I've watched all of your videos since the dawn of time and I've been watching other people's videos on Elden Ring as well. I think I have a good idea what's up.
Miyazaki-san has always leaned into Alchemy since early days, some of it is in the background of Dark Souls even. The alchemical idea at play for Marika and other Empyreans - those born of one god - is the homunculus. Originally a concept of tiny human beings (pygmy?), homunculi are seen as created beings. Homunculi are seen as analogous to Golem. All empyreans are created beings, like how the Albinaurics are created beings; Albinaurics were created by humans, not gods.
My theory is that Marika created Radagon. Radagon begot Ranni on his own while charming Rennala; all done on Marika's orders. I believe her inspection of the Golden Order was a sign that she wanted to be free of the Greater Will, that the Elden Beast influenced the Lands Between through Marika and often without her consent - Marika was a puppet. Her act of creating Radagon allowed her to split the Greater Will's influence and control into two beings, weakening its power over her. Ranni's creation would bring about an age of Night that would see the Greater Will's influence cleansed from the lands. Her plot set in motion the undesired but needed deaths of Godwyn's soul and Ranni's flesh - this is her betrayal of Malekith. And though she knew Godwyn would die, her favored son from the times she thought the Golden Order might be just, she knew from the birth of Morgott and Mohg that something was wrong and that ill omens were on their way. She still wept for Godwyn despite knowing that this plot was hers.
My only evidence I can think of off the top of my head is the principles of alchemy and the dialog in the chambers from Melina. The address to Radagon by Marika in their bedroom, "Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half". He's already her other half without becoming her yet. It could be a poetic phrase (other half like how we describe our spouses) that I've misinterpreted or it could be bad localization but I will ago with a strict reading of the dialog. That she acknowledges that he will become one with her AND he is her other half at the time of the dialog.
Before the giant's curse, Radagon's hair was gold. Since this is George R.R. Martin we're talking about writing the lore, it might also be that Marika and Radagon shared a single placenta and were born twins from one god - each the other one's other half. The incest-adjacent disfigurements could be the cause of Malenia and Miquella's congenital defects. A demigod is not a god. An empyrean is not a god. Only an Empyrean may ascend to godhood - though it seems a bit more democratic at that point (and it seems that an empyrean can only ever wield a true gods power (become their vassal) while never actually becoming an actual, otherworldly fifth dimensional being themselves.)
That is super interesting! Ty for watching us from the dawn of time!
anytime i start up a Sinclair Lore video i just get a big ol smile on my face
You’re the sweetest
One of the best lore videos I’ve seen on elden ring. Please keep it up! I’d love to see a video discussing all of the outer gods, the origins of the divine towers and/or the two fingers or something like that. Great stuff though 👍👍
And yes Godfrey was like no way will I fuse with you,youre insane.Probably did not like death being pulled out of the ring as well.
New pixel art is sick awesome job Holdsy 👍
Your description of the golden order and the legion of erdtrees on other planes or planets is a direct parallel to the hraangan hiveminds from GRRM thousand worlds universe. I don’t think that’s a coincidence at all (at least in their purpose and function within the narrative)
I need a new age of the order of the Little Slug
(I LOVED so much this video, Best lore and Best jokes all together, that's the true perfect balance of the world!)
Love that the Snack Covenant logo got altered so it can stay.
The Golden Order itself was also created by Marika. Enia tells us that the Rune of Death was plucked by the Golden Order upon its creation.
Before Marika edited the 'program' to her liking, the Elden Ring was probably just pure Order. Which is represented in the 'Primordial Colours' of Red + Gold, that the Crucible Knights present in their weapons and armour.
The new Elden Ring theme art is so good!
lmao I actually appreciate the water and stretching reminder
I absolutely love listening to your channel~ I planned on sticking to your Bloodborne and Dark Souls content at first, because I couldn’t get my fingers on a copy of Elden Ring right at the release. I didn’t want to spoil anything for myself, but it turns out the lands between are so vast: and it has such an abundance of fascinating characters and enemies…. I feel lucky to have your interpretations and explanations to listen to! The sneak peek I listened to only made me feel a bit more prepared to take in the experience. You are always so thoughtful and articulate, I’ve reached new levels of appreciation for my favorite games- all thanks to you sharing these lovely conversations! Thank you so much!
Thanks so much!
I've been avidly listening to your lore since jsf was doing Bloodborne up close and bickering with Redgrave. Everytime you two post a new video you make my day :>
awwww yey!
so glad I found this channel during the elden ring lore-splosion. You guys make a great team and I've gone back now and listened to a ton of the old stuff too. Sure. Maybe I am in the group of people who listen to you long form at work
Glad you found us!
Another interesting circumstance with Renala and Radagon is him leaving the great rune of rebirth with her. I agree that they would have to be different people for the reason Sophie stated. Maybe just how she created Radagon?
Great podcast!
I think this might be the first time my interpretation of events differs from you guys so much. I think it's because so much stuff is still up in the air.
There was something about Radan learning from the sorceres of Sellia something about 'what lays in the stars' and that he decided to use his knowledge of gravity magic for holding the stars.
Can't find the source ATM but I don't think I've just dreamed up that info.
The Remembrance of Radahn says that he learned gravity magic in his younger years in Sellia, while some gravity sorceries mention he was trained by an Alabaster Lord specifically. His original motivation per the Remembrance was to continue to be able to ride his beloved, scrawny horse, but from my knowledge nothing in game tells us outright why he challenged the stars and kept them still.
Your retention rate comment made me feel like one of the cool kids, cuz I'm new but can't stop listening to these all the way through, even if I wanted to (I don't want to though lol).
Aww ty
Like the Erdtree, like the Glintstone, like the Scarlet Rot, I see Radagon as a parasite, embedded into Marika to consume her from the inside out. Maybe the Outer Will could not remove Marika as a God once she had been established so the next best thing was to have a chosen loyalist consume her form to carry the Golden Order, not unlike the Erdtree possibly consuming the Crucible to exist.
"Spice, spice, baby" the classic single from renown rapper Mr. Cool Ice.
lol
Never noticed the 2 and 3 fingers on Radagons hammer slam design as I never got a good look. It's interesting because beast gained intelligence when they got five fingers and it seems they have a big association with 5 fingers which we know about from the beast dagger that I dare not spell here because I'm too lazy to google the item name.
Just my personal headcanon:
Marika and Radagon have always been the same being. Two bodies with distinct minds and wills, but share the same soul. This explains why Ranni is a Demigod even if Rennala isn’t. It’s because Radagon is her father. I think that after the Greater Will made Marika the Queen Goddess, Marika separated from Radagon to further her machinations using Godfrey’s strength to remove any and all opposition. After Marika had no further use for him, she revoked his Grace making him the first tarnished. Had Maliketh defeat the Gloam Eyed Queen to take the power of Black Flame from her since black flame could kill gods. Imbued the rune of Death into Maliketh’s sword and had him guard it so no god could be killed. Radagon was called forth to replace Godfrey as King consort and second Elden Lord allowing Marika to be both queen and king simultaneously. Tasked smithing master Hewg with making a weapon to slay a God to end the Elden Beast thus removing herself from the Greater Will’s hold over her. This would allow her to Rule alone and unopposed but little ambitious Ranni had plans of her own that came to be known as the Night of the Black Knives. She stole a fragment of the rune of death to kill her empyrean body and place her soul into a doll while simultaneously killing her stepbrother godwyn’s soul but not his body. All this to sever the Greater Will’s connection, control and influence over the lands between. She envisions a new age, The Age of Stars.
it's interesting that placidusax, who was "Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree", also seems to be a fusion of two dragons.
He's missing three heads though. So originally he would have had five heads.
@@Cynder44 you're right, nevermind.
What if the line Marika says of both being shattered is when the split happens? Maybe she separated part of herself in that moment and expected Radagon to be like a loyal puppet before calling him back
the miyazaki bit was priceless
Very cool, thanks for doing this! I had come up with a different interpretation that is a lot, lot less kind to the Golden Order, but ends up being more of a tragic love story.
The Golden Order sucks. It is super into labeling all kinds of things as heresy, blasphemy, impure, or cursed. They’re kinda fascist, when you get down to it. But a lot of the things they call heresy, like having aspects of the Crucible, are also crucial aspects of the Erdtree, which they see as the symbol of perfect order. Their ideology is incoherent and about to collapse under the strain of its own contradictions. Their central principals are causality and regression, but the secret of regression is that regression uses intelligence, not faith, and is therefore “heretical.” Regression, the tendency of things to break down into past forms, kinda like entropy, sounds a lot like the frenzied flame desire to destroy differences and reduce all to one unified whole. This state of all life being mixed together into one also sounds a lot like the Crucible. It is as if the Two Fingers and the Three Fingers are both representations of Causality and Regression, respectively, and life exists in the pull between the two impulses. Perhaps this is an epiphany to Markia while she investigates the depths of her faith, and she realizes that her perfect order is a lie and the children she rejected as cursed were in fact just different. To truly embody the true order or the world (and maybe punish herself out of grief about needlessly torturing her children), she needs to embody this push and pull, this breaking and making.
Marika says to Radagon that she wants to become one with him by shattering themselves. A shattering may be a kind of regression, of returning to constituent parts, which can then be mixed together and remade. And Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, so shattering her also is shattering the ring, as we see in the cinematic where her own body crumbles while shattering the ring. Perhaps Marika and Radagon become one by entering a Crucible-like mixed together state, which is a heretical act according to the Golden Order, but also necessary to embody the true nature of their order. Marika shatters each of them and Radagon reforges them, together. But it doesn’t totally work out and they are reforged as an empty vessel, with the ring shards scattered already. The only rune in the Erdtree is Marika’s rune, which the now unified Marika/Radagon is hanged from (maybe a rune of resurrection? The symbol of Marika hanging from the arc mirrors her rune image on her scarseal and soreseal, and is also the stake that brings players back to life in the world). An embodiment of a dying, empty order, after all. But they have each other, in a (perhaps rapturous) state of being mixed together, and Radagon seals the Erdree door to reject every part of the world other then themselves. When thev player arrives with the runes, the ring is restored in Radagon.
Nice. Well thought out and backed up. I sided with ranni because she was blue and offered to take me to the moon. Also she played super hard to get and talked down to me until I win her over through gratuitous violence
After listening to many lore vids, from you guys I have noticed a trend in communication style. It is Simply Positive! Sin uses "Thank You" (Great Respect) often and Sophie uses the "Yeah" acknowledgment, a ton. Is this your deep-down secret subliminal good vibe technique.? Seriously it really works! Pass one of those special brownies, Please. So Yeah, Thank You!
lol ty
You gotta think Marika and Rennalla were at war for many years then there's a peace and she marries someone from the golden order then he leaves and breaks he heart and everything changes but notice that there are no Stakes of Makria in her Academy not even broken ones so Rennalla never got over her anger for Marika so she never had any stakes installed in her academy during her marriage because of her hatred
These videos make me so comfy. Even at work
You guys got Pruld to advertise Glockens Pyromancy academy thats fucking dope. Also great video i love you guys' lore dives (:
This is asmr to me plus I love learning more about elden ring
I wasn't expecting a fake ad in Italian lmao
omg this was great, i love the style of the presentation and the art, and you were both really fun to listen to. It also helped me nail down my thoughts about marika/radagon. I kinda disagree that they started out as strictly two different people, but only because i think part of the point is that we're supposed to argue about that? Like it's a reference to different christian sects arguing about whether jesus is literally god come to earth or god's human son or prophet or something in between. In my mind Marika and Radagon are like a mix of the archetypes of god the father-god the son, the king who disguises himself as a commoner to walk among his people, the girl who lives in the guise of a man/soldier, and just sort of a general divine androgyne. I think i find the idea of them being in some way truly one person playing two roles, who also sometimes thinks of themself (and apparently talks to themself) as if they truly were two more interesting than just having radagon be some poor sap marika assimilated yknow?
so basically i think ur initial genderqueer prediction was just fully 100% on the money lol
Elden Ring has simple chronology, thankfully.
Merika took the Grace from Godrfrey & his army after they defeated the giants. Now without grace, she banishes them as Tarnished & orders them to one day return seeking to conquer the Lands Between.
When Merika breaks the Elden Ring, it fuses her & Ratagon together backwards in time with the Elden Ring Itself as represented by Causality (Merika) & Regression (Radagon). Make sense?
Redahn froze the stars to protect the Sorcery Town of Sellia from divine punishment & live happily with his horse (because his is powerful but shortsighted) but this prevented Miquella from becoming a god so Malenia bloomed in Caelid, leaving herself in a coma & Redahn crazy with grief, so Mogwhyn snuck past sleeping Malenia & stole Miquella.
I too thought maybe Godfrey rejected the concept of merging with Marika. Perhaps she was in fact his last great opponent & this was why he was banished. Her concession to the Tarnished perhaps showing that despite his refusal she still had love for him or something.
So happy to be able to enjoy these now that I've finally finished the game! Loving the new animation ☺
You should do a video on FromSofeware recurring elements of soulsborne
Heheheheh, it looks like Elder Ring LORF with youtube’s time overlay on the titlecard
Who did the voice of the italian dignity city ad at 19:40 ?
beautiful bear in a tutu :) one of our earliest cultists
Wonder if the fire, twin thing, star thing and, fate thing related to twin flames story.
I am inclined to agree, even though I think there just isn't enough evidence to be certain. I think the problem with them being separate entities is Marika's motivations. Why would she claim him in the first place? It seems to me that its not clear if the Golden Order itself is the reason Marika concentrated that much power (and wage so many wars). Marika's investigation of the Golden Order doesn't seem to just be a philosophical understanding of the laws of the world, it looks like its also an exploration and an introspection on the desires to conquer and expand her influence: are these desires Marika's own ambitions or is it the Greater Will's ambitions embedded within the ring? I think that is left open to communicate how abstract the question of agency really is, specially given the immaterial nature of the Outer Gods. Because of her being suspicious of the order and Radagon being loyal to it, the ambiguity of Marika/ Radagon at the same time humanizes and abstract both characters. It seems to offer an interesting parrallel to DS's lore, where, to an extent, Gwyn and the lords take the power of the fire for granted.
I think she knew she would lose grace from her plan being enacted and after her 1st husband refused to fuse and break the Golden Order's... Well, order's... And went to Radagon because he would have no choice but to obey. After the plan was enacted and the Elden Ring was broken, she knew she'd lose grace so she fused with someone that would be able to still manifest the Elden Ring and obey her commands instead of being an independent Elden Lord. Thoughts?
The whole Marika/Radagon is so confusing it smells of another Kos fiasco
I'm a devoted listener, and this is great and thought-provoking, but I dispute elements of this theory because I think the obvious reading of Radagon's obsession with secrecy regarding his marital affairs when he was married to Rennala is that he was Marika at that time.
Also, the description for the "Occult Marika's Hammer" suggests that Radagon's warhammer during his campaigns was in fact a version of Marika's weapon.
(Accordingly, I think this has impact to how we understand Ranni's parentage.)
Actually makes sense because thats around the time his statue was built, that changes to Marika
knowledge of that which is absolutely true is restrictive; the darkness of uncertainty is that which forms the backdrop for the certainties of the Golden Order. the Law of Regression is shown to be associated with hidden things and convergence without understanding, while the Law of Causality represents its opposite: it only functions once it is True that you have been Damaged beyond a given Absolute Value that allows the spell to function. Radagon is clearly indicated to be aligned with the Law of Causality: he Breaks the Golden Order, which irreversibly increases the entropy of the Order itself (the fly in the ointment, as it were) and moves time forwards, while Marika is consistently coded using the Law of Regression, associated with That Which Was and That Which One Returns To; she is if not the very one, among the First names you learn, and the Last about whom you learn anything or, for that matter, get to interact with. Putting her back together - an act of Regression in defiance of Causality - is the core act of basically every ending; how you do it and whether or not you have any intention of doing so in the first place are the core questions that determine your ending, after all, aren't they?
Marika is Radagon, yet they are separate and required reunion, like how for every tick there is an accompanying tock. She ticks, and when she runs out of momentum, he tocks; when he is done, she may tick once more. She is the Most Godlike Character in the Pantheon, and he is the Least Godlike: zenith and nadir of the Sphere of the Celestials created by the Greater Order's existence. There's no better reason, if she sought to understand herself and the Elden Beast whose darkness keeps her blind to the existence of the other Erdtrees, ironically enough, because the room was filled with too much light to see them - an error the Beast corrects by spewing out plenty of astral darkness at the beginning of your fight.
It no longer seems to matter whether or not they were originally separate people. Maybe Radagon was where her timeline began, and when he ascended to the throne of Elden Lord, he satisfies the closed loop of their own existence and bootstraps their paradox into at least semi-rational spacetime. He became a god, and while that is true, he may regress freely to the state of being Marika, which she always was and was waiting for him to learn over the course of his finite existence before apotheosis (still fulfilling "thour't yet to become a god; thour't yet to become me")
She was holding the second hand on a clock representing their collective experience as they are iterated through and then become part of the Greater Will just to figure out how it works, how much driving force does it have? Will the Hand break if I do this? And that will was manifest within Radagon, within the universe she had come from when once known by that name, to the point where she needed to accept who she was in order to keep the clock ticking. The Greater Will is just the automated control of the Outer Gods after all; the Elden Beast, one of theirs sent to clean up this corner of the Lands Between without being bothered enough to handle it directly, and Marika only considered "of another world" rather than being a more home-grown type of god for being the only one we are told directly houses the Greater Will; this is what makes it so interesting that it was found in the darkness inside Radagon rather than in plain sight where we expected and were indeed told we would find it. Knowledge of that could blind nearly everyone into believing Marika was born of another world, yet she bears more resemblance to those who live in the Lands than the Gods with whom she is associated. She is Other, Radagon is Not. Kind of eggy vibe, is it not? 🥚😘✨️
I can't believe I got got by GlockensPyromancyAcademy
2 things:
1. The war with the Dragons was probably first because the dragons had control of the elden beast before Marika. Why would they let Marika take control from them and then like 40 years later declare war?
2. The golden order being flawed is because of a fickleness of the Gods not of the demi Gods. So Either Marika, Radagon or the Greater Will was too fickle not the demiGods.
My Dose of elden ring lore is injekted ... ahhhh good Stuff😁 love it
I'm a bit late to the party 🥳🎉🎉 buuuuut I've officially given up all hope of getting a PC that can handle this beastly game. Console is maaaaybe possible, but I've given in to any and all spoilers/theory's....so go nuts #SnackCovenant !!!
The only Miyazaki game I want to look forward to is one in collaboration with junji ito
@41:35 What is that from? 😂 I can’t stop laughing from it but I have no idea why
hahaah its from the 12 monkeys series!
Thank you Sin! I’m a huge fan btw! I’m going to go watch 1️⃣2️⃣ 🐒 on Hulu 📺 right now!
@@Siculidee hype!!!
I am loving this XD this video is so charming! Thank you very much for putting it together. :3
Hi Sofie! I appreciate that little break there. I'm new! I wanted to ask if you're a fellow Aussie?
This is totally interesting btw. I'm itching to get back into my game but I can't play much atm 😅
*Edit.
"... and that's when the Golden Order pisses off."
Bahaha-! Howdy fellow Aussie! Hope you're doing well out there ^u^
Hi welcome to the snack covenant! :) Yes Sophie is from Australia. If you like our stuff, feel free to look around, grab some snacks, we have a discord and stuff! Make yourself at home!
@@SinclairLore i was just watching the Winter Lanterns video until I had to go looking for Bayu Bayushki Bayu. I love the format and how y'all bring up possible connections I've never thought of!
Was trying to find correct spelling for names lol, it's Sophie and Sin? Thank you very much. The statue sitting/standing joke made me LOL 😂🤭😆
@@madmorgo6233 Glad you like the stuff! Yup I'm Sin (Sinclair), and Sophie (Sophie Pilbeam) is my cohost :)
If you're new, don't worry about all the inside references and random pixel characters, it will become clear when you watch the podcasts XD
10:35 glad I’m not the only one who despises the Elden beast.
Very interesting analysis here as usual. I think the idea that the Greater Will is colonizing other worlds with Erdrees is a huge reach though, it’s based off very little other than the imagery of the final bossfight (which could mean any number of things, I interpreted it as roots). There's nothing other than that to suggest that there are other worlds with Erdtrees on them.
The transition at 34:20 is dope
ty
LONG LORE THEORY COMMENT AHEAD
there are some details in the game that make me think marika was grief-stricken by godwyn's _undeath_ rather than his death, and she actually wanted him to die to begin with, even if it may have been hard for her to make that choice
1. there's a spirit in limgrave that calls him "[marika's] unwanted child," which could imply some kind of emotional detachment, but i don't think so. it may just mean that godwyn should not be alive _right now,_ either because his current form is a curse to all life or because he was simply not meant to survive at all
2. the finger reader crone in deeproot depths doesn't lament that godwyn was supposed to live forever as a demigod, but that, as a demigod, he was supposed to _truly die,_ as "as a martyr to destined death." the finger readers you find are always fundamentalist dipshits that even get mad at you for crossing the forbidden lands, so that means the golden order _wanted godwyn dead_
3. miquella created the golden epitaph sword when he was young, imbued with a prayer for his brother to "die a true death," but he also petitioned castle sol to bring an eclipse and revive godwyn, promising the head of the castle passage to the haligtree. we know that miquella used to be a fundamentalist and then left, creating his own order and generally going against the golden order. this means that, when miquella was with the golden order, he wanted godwyn's body to die, and after leaving the golden order, he wanted to revive his soul instead. it could be because those who live in death are oppressed by the order and the order of unalloyed gold would want to help them on those grounds, but given the deeproot finger reader's dialogue, there might be more to it
4. the black knife assassins are said to have personal close ties to marika. given the points above, plus the fact that they eventually go after ranni and their ringleader is imprisoned in carian territory, as well as the fact that maliketh apparently got betrayed by marika again _after_ she relegated him to the sole purpose of guarding death, i think the assassination was marika's own idea, and ranni was moreso responsible for the ritual than she was for the logistics of the plot
my conclusion: marika wanted godwyn to die as a martyr to destined death, which seems to be in line with her rebellion against her previous role, bringing death to the age of glistening life and eternity. she chose a ring of fellow numen with close ties to her to carry out the deed, and ranni was involved as a co-conspirator to aid with the theft of the rune of death and imbue its power into their daggers. however, ranni only got involved because she had her own ulterior motives: having access with the power to kill a demigod and knowing exactly when another demigod would die, so that, when the time of the assassination came, she could use the rune of death on herself as well, making sure that the cursemark would be split in two and only killing her body, just like she wanted. this, as a side effect, sabotaged the plot to kill a demigod, turning what was supposed to become an icon of the power of destined death in opposition to the golden order into a show of horrifying defilement that only made the lands between _more_ stagnant than they already were, possibly even meaning that marika sacrificed her own beloved son for absolutely nothing. that's why she could have felt so desperate that she no longer bothered to plan a careful, meticulous plot against the greater will, and instead simply went and shattered the elden ring without warning
Wow incredible art n love the content and your Miyazaki impression.
Thank you so much 😀
I think my interpretation of Marika is completely different. She seems more like a prisoner than the one who is pulling the strings.
Marika is strung up on a half ring cross and stabbed by the Elden Beast to keep her in place. When threatened, Radagon steps in to try and stop you who is also helped by the Elden Beast. It seems that Marika is imprsioned by the Elden Beast. As an empyrean she is possessed by the Greater Will (an outer god) and a vessel for the Elden ring.
It also seems like Radagon is more doing this for the Greater Will’s benefit more than anything. He is after all the high priest (for lack of a better term) of the Golden Order.
And yes, Godfrey lost grace, but what’s to say that was Marika’s fault? It seems more like a mistake than anything. Godfrey purposefully took Serosh on his shoulder so that he wouldn’t be the violent Horoux Loux, not that he’s always after power.
Is there anything relevant about the ring on Miquella’s finger when we see his cacoon in Mohg’s palace?
NEW PIXEL ARE LETS GOOOOOOOOOO
Few thoughts: firstly, is there anyway to know that the fingers are actually interfacing with the Greater Will, or are we simply trusting intermediaries, mediums (finger readers), and the Golden Order. Also there's a weird part of the order that both kind of works like a static faith and a natural-science group. Regardless, the Greater Will seems to demonstrable to exist but the fingers seem unreliable. The game clearly insinuates that as well with Varre too, just in a certain context.
Also what ever happened with that weird dagger that they patched out that was beneath the Beastial Sanctum that you had to parkour to that referenced something about five fingers? Why would they patch that out? I got it on my first playthrough but I wonder if that was intended. It seems relevant to the Fingers
Gold mask is a directly in touch with the greater will, he moves his arms to kind of get better connection to the will like an antenna. Not to different from how the fingers communicate