Making a pass, being told no and then both moving on and letting it be... sounds pretty much like asking someone out on a regular date to me! If there are career consequences for saying no, though... that's the line being crossed into an exploiting of power.
Your comment that everyone always knew about Levine is spot on. I was a student in Cleveland and took some courses at the Cleveland Institute of Music in the late 60s where Levine was the conductor of the student orchestra. He had his inner circle of followers known as the Levinites who followed him like a cult and who received preferential treatment. His position as assistant conductor to Szell at the Cleveland orchestra gave him great power. There were dark rumors that were never exposed until 40-50 years later when the extent of his manipulations finally came to light before he died.
I heard 2 members of the Ravinia Festival board joking about what we all suspected back in 88. If knew they definitely know and helped cover it up and pay off the abusers. Happened more times than anyone knows about. Levine wasn't a great talent with one bad flaw. He was a flawed person with one great ability.
I'm curious to see what the response of the critical community to his recordings will be in light of this. A couple of months ago, Gramophone put three - THREE! - of Roth's recording in their top 20 Ravel recordings, including his abysmal Daphnis. Will they keep doing that? Or are his recordings suddenly no longer that amazing?
The abuse of power is the issue. The worst people are attracted to positions of power like flies to dogshit. The best people tend to avoid power like the plague. So, we tend to end up with the worst people in positions of power EVERYWHERE. Not sure how we deal with this beyond watching and listening to The Marriage of Figaro or Don Giovanni where Mozart deals with this issue most directly. We're all tempted to abuse what power we have, be it little or great, and we have choices to make. We can do the right thing and end up in a good place or do the wrong thing and end up in a bad place.
Good people are attracted to community.... similar to birds that are forming a community and they fly to same dirrection. Dr. Joe dispenza says: "In community of people nobody is a leader, everybody is leading."
As you briefly noted, this is not limited to the classical music sphere. History makes evident that people in power positions often use that power to arrogantly indulge their vices, unconcerned with who gets hurt. It never has been right, and never will be, but I don't see it ending in the foreseeable future.
I’ve been in this business all my life. I could tell many stories, straight and gay big and small. Professors with their students, conductors, stage directors, even orch musicians themselves with orch musicians. I was on orch committee. So many singers and DANCERS came to me and secretly complained.I said if they don‘t file a complaint then there was noting we could do. They answered, if they file then they would not be engaged for the next season. Only solution, carry a hidden microphone.
Thank you for bringing this up. I've always thought that there were strange paradoxes about the music business. On the one hand you have to be single minded, in a way that probably only an olympic athlete would understand, in order to make through the ruthless competitiveness. On the other being a good musician requires sensitivity to nuance. Those two things do not sit happily alongside each other and when you add . power imbalance and superstar pulling power it's easy to see how it becomes a toxic mix. As with all these things, there are always victims, whose feelings are brushed under the carpet and who have to live with the consequences. Exactly what "artistic truth" means in all this is anyone's guess.
This chat comes at an interesting time for me, since I think I am finding myself in that situation. I am a young orchestral musician, trying to get my career started. At this stage it's very casual but I'm cautious. I'm hoping it's a kindred spirit type of thing. I would hate to have to leave the orchestra if it starts getting weird. We will see...
As reported by VAN Magazine, two journalists of Le Canard enchaîné spoke with seven musicians who had allegedly received “undesirable messages” from Roth while working with him. Further, between 2005 and 2010, some young players in Les Siècles were allegedly warned not to respond to Roth’s messages, which often and quickly contained inappropriate content. According to Le Canard enchaîné, other players saw the messages as a rite of passage that had to be accepted. The Le Canard enchaîné journalists obtained the text messages and photos corroborating the musicians’ accounts. They also cited a letter (viewed by VAN) from an orchestral musician to Stefan Englert, the head of the Gürzenich Orchestra, complaining of the workplace’s sexualized atmosphere.
Its not just about conductors. There have been quite a few articles eports about inappropriate sexual issues within the classical music world. Is this unique or a reflection of human relations across ALL employment categories.
They never learn & have always been this. Klemps was attacked in a concert by Elisabeth Schumann's husband & Scherchen was notorious for having 'offspring in every European capital.' And let's not go anywhere near the ballet conductors...
@@wouterdemuyt1013 A product of marketing and corporate invention, lacking in substance, either in measure of talent, or personality, is akin to an organ-less robot lacking that unique characteristic that distinguishes us from something non-living. I found it to be a provocative thought, and not the cheap shot it might appear to be at face value. The joke is on the machinery, not the person.
Not involving musicians so off topic, but another conductor, Jan-Latham Koenig has received a suspended sentence for child sex offences -numerous reports in the UK press.
Lots of great points here Dave. The industry does tolerate this behaviour and I’ll reckon this is the tip of the iceberg. In other, more affluent industries such as professional sports I’d expect that the behaviour is endemic and hidden from view more successfully because the sums of money involved within those industries are far larger.
"This can't happen with Makela because he has no genitalia." A choice quote among a video full of choice quotes. Glad you're addressing this perennial BS about "the Artist personality". It's total bulls hit. A leftover from the Beethoven legacy about how artists are above everybody else. Then Liszt cemented it with his inducing fainting spells among his female groupies. (Just to mention a few highlights of the history of this myth.
That's why I still admire Sir John Eliot Gardiner, who just punches musicians in a fist of temperament for artistic perfection, instead of sexual harassment for self-gratification.
As you pointed out, the problem is the misuse of power. There are a lot of very good trained musicians and only a few possibilities to earn enough money. Especially if you are a member of a small ensemble and the success is mostly depending on the success of the conductor. It is sad but it isn't only happening in the art and nobody is talking about. Think about cleaning women and all the people working under a very unsafe status and poor payment. Very sad
I am not even a little surprised anymore when revelations surface about bad behavior by conductors. I do wonder how many working conductors who are awful humans have been able to keep thing quiet through money or intimidation?
Solti had a reputation in his Chicago years for being a bit of a letch. Reportedly a Chicago area soprano who sang under him (in concert) (maybe in other situations) would not wear underwear with short dresses and would lean over scores to allow him a good look. A NYC-based soprano told me everyone knew about David Daniels' predilections. She said even female singers were warned not to be alone with him. That was the rare case where someone actually got jail time for their actions.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Ofc there is! I knew there could’ve been, you’re very outspoken and I value your opinions. I’m watching it now and I can’t wait to hear what you have to say. Btw, I can’t believe they’re letting him in the CSO. I hope mikela has a good career there but I’m not very hopeful.
Three comments: 1) I do not disagree with Dave's general take 9n the situation of power abuse. 2) I am a musician living in Cologne and have many friends in the Gürzenich orchestra. I had never heard about this, so maybe it's not an "everyone knows" situation. 3) wouldn't it be significant to know how FXR behaved subsequently towards those who declined his advances? As in the case of Ludwig/Solti.
Regarding #2, what I mean is that the administration is almost always aware of what is going on. What matters is how they choose to deal with it (if they do). As for #3, exactly right, as I mentioned.
At 2) I'm a musician in the Gürzenich-Orchestra. „Everybody“ knew about this behaviour and - as far as I know - many women in our orchestra got strange messages from Roth.
Thank you, Jörg, for the clarification. In the meantime I have been hearing (from reliable sources like yourself) more about his behavior and have to say that the questions I have had have been answered, and not to the benefit of FXR.
I like his (non-period instrument) 5cd Strauss box and some of his Les Siècles recordings have been very well recorded and are interesting (Le Sacre du Printemps and the Symphonie fantastique). But your results may vary.
I appreciate your thoughtful exploration of this topic, which I felt genuinely changed my perspective on it. I still feel that, for people in positions of power in the performing arts, there should be greater trepidation (maybe fear?) about going after and sexually pursuing subordinates. I have to imagine, in every other line of work in any industry, that employers and managers trying to get with (usually much younger) employees is a no-no. This may seem severe, but in those other industries, conflicts of interest are taken seriously. Why should it be different for classical music? Maybe I'm being idealistic.
Sorry Dave never heard of him ? As for James Levine enjoy his Mahler symphonies box set this has ofcourse always went on in human behaviour i admire Sinatra as a song stylist but hear he wasn't a very nice man and not let's not forget Politicians hahaha 😉
If the media was less interested in sex "scandals" and more interested in things that really matter, and also let people take care of their own problems, we'd live in a much more interesting culture.
How dare the media report on powerful people victimizing less powerful people who would like to keep their jobs. Why the quotes around scandals, you think getting a text from your boss with an unsolicited picture of his genitalia isn't scandalous, but just part of having an "interesting culture"?
What about facebook scams....Where people steal a photo of some actor, singer or even Opera tenor and send private messages to people with their name asking money or something. Thankfully people are smart enough to ot believe it. and they inform the real artist about the poser. As some discussion on Google said Facebook has no email. You may report the fake facebook profile, but if Facebook has no email you can not say all the details. because the person may use the photos from Instagram or other platforms... You can not write all the info. You may only report the profile and expect that the editors of Facebook will investigate it by themselves. But they usually write back, the person broke no community rules. maybe thye didnt want to investigate it immediatelly so they send whatever answer. soi thye block the person later, even though he writes to old ladies "send me a friend request" Some tenor wrote dont replky to them, I dint write the messages etc. If posers may write these messages, about money scams or friend requests i would only believe sex scandals if they were diirect, not the ones from some unknown email.. because everybody may steal the identity of some ratist.
“What was Roth doing with himself?”
I was quite relieved when you followed that with a list of his current musical posts.
LOL!
"What most people call artistic temperament is just bad manners." - James "Jerry" Jerritt
Absolutely. It's like rudeness. Rich people aren't rude, they are eccentric. Only poor people are rude.
Making a pass, being told no and then both moving on and letting it be... sounds pretty much like asking someone out on a regular date to me! If there are career consequences for saying no, though... that's the line being crossed into an exploiting of power.
“The use and abuse of power..” excellently said!
Your comment that everyone always knew about Levine is spot on. I was a student in Cleveland and took some courses at the Cleveland Institute of Music in the late 60s where Levine was the conductor of the student orchestra. He had his inner circle of followers known as the Levinites who followed him like a cult and who received preferential treatment. His position as assistant conductor to Szell at the Cleveland orchestra gave him great power. There were dark rumors that were never exposed until 40-50 years later when the extent of his manipulations finally came to light before he died.
I heard 2 members of the Ravinia Festival board joking about what we all suspected back in 88. If knew they definitely know and helped cover it up and pay off the abusers. Happened more times than anyone knows about. Levine wasn't a great talent with one bad flaw. He was a flawed person with one great ability.
I'm curious to see what the response of the critical community to his recordings will be in light of this. A couple of months ago, Gramophone put three - THREE! - of Roth's recording in their top 20 Ravel recordings, including his abysmal Daphnis. Will they keep doing that? Or are his recordings suddenly no longer that amazing?
Interesting question!
Ohh hahah Dave please follow that and see if you can catch them on this
There is also the mess going on at The New York Philharmonic.
The abuse of power is the issue. The worst people are attracted to positions of power like flies to dogshit. The best people tend to avoid power like the plague. So, we tend to end up with the worst people in positions of power EVERYWHERE. Not sure how we deal with this beyond watching and listening to The Marriage of Figaro or Don Giovanni where Mozart deals with this issue most directly. We're all tempted to abuse what power we have, be it little or great, and we have choices to make. We can do the right thing and end up in a good place or do the wrong thing and end up in a bad place.
Good people are attracted to community.... similar to birds that are forming a community and they fly to same dirrection.
Dr. Joe dispenza says: "In community of people nobody is a leader, everybody is leading."
My newest fave Dave quote: ""Let's face it: most people are creeps." And I'm only part-way though the vid! p.s., the Makela quote!
😂😂
As you briefly noted, this is not limited to the classical music sphere. History makes evident that people in power positions often use that power to arrogantly indulge their vices, unconcerned with who gets hurt. It never has been right, and never will be, but I don't see it ending in the foreseeable future.
Of course it won't. People are pigs. Period.
Pop music, literature, art, politics, entertainment, commerce, academia... it's everywhere. Only poor, powerless people can't get away with it.
I’ve been in this business all my life. I could tell many stories, straight and gay big and small. Professors with their students, conductors, stage directors, even orch musicians themselves with orch musicians. I was on orch committee. So many singers and DANCERS came to me and secretly complained.I said if they don‘t file a complaint then there was noting we could do. They answered, if they file then they would not be engaged for the next season. Only solution, carry a hidden microphone.
Very solid take. Just as you say: It's never about sex. If it was just about sex, then it would be nobody's business. It's about power, and its abuse.
Thank you for bringing this up.
I've always thought that there were strange paradoxes about the music business.
On the one hand you have to be single minded, in a way that probably only an olympic athlete would understand, in order to make through the ruthless competitiveness. On the other being a good musician requires sensitivity to nuance. Those two things do not sit happily alongside each other and when you add . power imbalance and superstar pulling power it's easy to see how it becomes a toxic mix.
As with all these things, there are always victims, whose feelings are brushed under the carpet and who have to live with the consequences.
Exactly what "artistic truth" means in all this is anyone's guess.
This chat comes at an interesting time for me, since I think I am finding myself in that situation. I am a young orchestral musician, trying to get my career started. At this stage it's very casual but I'm cautious. I'm hoping it's a kindred spirit type of thing. I would hate to have to leave the orchestra if it starts getting weird. We will see...
Hang in there and don't be afraid to set boundaries if things get weird. You owe nothing.
Speaking of cults, there is actually a James Levine cult on TH-cam that goes around advocating for his innocence.
Is there a Placido Domingo cult, too? 🙄
12:08 way to land on KM at the end! Thanks, Dave, I needed that.
Obviously, non-genetalian conductors and musicians are the future of classical music. Enjoy!
You expose indeed the matter with panache and good humor. There is no better way to do it Mr Hurwitz.
As reported by VAN Magazine, two journalists of Le Canard enchaîné spoke with seven musicians who had allegedly received “undesirable messages” from Roth while working with him.
Further, between 2005 and 2010, some young players in Les Siècles were allegedly warned not to respond to Roth’s messages, which often and quickly contained inappropriate content. According to Le Canard enchaîné, other players saw the messages as a rite of passage that had to be accepted.
The Le Canard enchaîné journalists obtained the text messages and photos corroborating the musicians’ accounts. They also cited a letter (viewed by VAN) from an orchestral musician to Stefan Englert, the head of the Gürzenich Orchestra, complaining of the workplace’s sexualized atmosphere.
Its not just about conductors. There have been quite a few articles
eports about inappropriate sexual issues within the classical music world. Is this unique or a reflection of human relations across ALL employment categories.
I thought Roth was a case of the Emperor's new clothes before this. Now I know he's a case. No loss in my book.
They never learn & have always been this. Klemps was attacked in a concert by Elisabeth Schumann's husband & Scherchen was notorious for having 'offspring in every European capital.' And let's not go anywhere near the ballet conductors...
Holy cow! That last comment…. 😹out of nowhere
Hehe.
I just spit out my morning coffee. Hilarious. Great observations too.
@@wouterdemuyt1013Makela is the Ken Barbie doll of classical music. The Ken doll has no genitalia!
@@wouterdemuyt1013 A product of marketing and corporate invention, lacking in substance, either in measure of talent, or personality, is akin to an organ-less robot lacking that unique characteristic that distinguishes us from something non-living. I found it to be a provocative thought, and not the cheap shot it might appear to be at face value. The joke is on the machinery, not the person.
Tachlis???? Not used to hearing that on a classical forum. Love it.
Not involving musicians so off topic, but another conductor, Jan-Latham Koenig has received a suspended sentence for child sex offences -numerous reports in the UK press.
Lots of great points here Dave.
The industry does tolerate this behaviour and I’ll reckon this is the tip of the iceberg.
In other, more affluent industries such as professional sports I’d expect that the behaviour is endemic and hidden from view more successfully because the sums of money involved within those industries are far larger.
"This can't happen with Makela because he has no genitalia." A choice quote among a video full of choice quotes. Glad you're addressing this perennial BS about "the Artist personality". It's total bulls hit. A leftover from the Beethoven legacy about how artists are above everybody else. Then Liszt cemented it with his inducing fainting spells among his female groupies. (Just to mention a few highlights of the history of this myth.
That's why I still admire Sir John Eliot Gardiner, who just punches musicians in a fist of temperament for artistic perfection, instead of sexual harassment for self-gratification.
I'm sure he harasses himself for sexual gratification.
That conclusion 😂👍 !
A new job could be professional photographer
There so many examples of this in conductors (even in one movie) and will have mores to come.
As you pointed out, the problem is the misuse of power. There are a lot of very good trained musicians and only a few possibilities to earn enough money. Especially if you are a member of a small ensemble and the success is mostly depending on the success of the conductor. It is sad but it isn't only happening in the art and nobody is talking about. Think about cleaning women and all the people working under a very unsafe status and poor payment. Very sad
I am not even a little surprised anymore when revelations surface about bad behavior by conductors.
I do wonder how many working conductors who are awful humans have been able to keep thing quiet through money or intimidation?
Solti had a reputation in his Chicago years for being a bit of a letch. Reportedly a Chicago area soprano who sang under him (in concert) (maybe in other situations) would not wear underwear with short dresses and would lean over scores to allow him a good look. A NYC-based soprano told me everyone knew about David Daniels' predilections. She said even female singers were warned not to be alone with him. That was the rare case where someone actually got jail time for their actions.
I wonder if it will affect the quality of his music making!?
Likely it already has.
If I admired him as a musician, I might be concerned. So far, I've heard nothing to recommend him. Quite the reverse, in fact.
omg speaking of klaus makaela have you seen that he’s coming to the cso?
Everyone has seen that. There's an entire video and discussion about it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Ofc there is! I knew there could’ve been, you’re very outspoken and I value your opinions. I’m watching it now and I can’t wait to hear what you have to say.
Btw, I can’t believe they’re letting him in the CSO. I hope mikela has a good career there but I’m not very hopeful.
Three comments:
1) I do not disagree with Dave's general take 9n the situation of power abuse.
2) I am a musician living in Cologne and have many friends in the Gürzenich orchestra. I had never heard about this, so maybe it's not an "everyone knows" situation.
3) wouldn't it be significant to know how FXR behaved subsequently towards those who declined his advances? As in the case of Ludwig/Solti.
Regarding #2, what I mean is that the administration is almost always aware of what is going on. What matters is how they choose to deal with it (if they do). As for #3, exactly right, as I mentioned.
Yes, thanks for the clarification. With James Levine the entire world of musicians knew?
At 2) I'm a musician in the Gürzenich-Orchestra. „Everybody“ knew about this behaviour and - as far as I know - many women in our orchestra got strange messages from Roth.
Thank you, Jörg, for the clarification. In the meantime I have been hearing (from reliable sources like yourself) more about his behavior and have to say that the questions I have had have been answered, and not to the benefit of FXR.
I'm curious. I've never listened to anything by Roth. What 's his real worth as a conductor?
That's an impossible question. You have to listen and judge for yourself.
I like his (non-period instrument) 5cd Strauss box and some of his Les Siècles recordings have been very well recorded and are interesting (Le Sacre du Printemps and the Symphonie fantastique). But your results may vary.
I appreciate your thoughtful exploration of this topic, which I felt genuinely changed my perspective on it.
I still feel that, for people in positions of power in the performing arts, there should be greater trepidation (maybe fear?) about going after and sexually pursuing subordinates. I have to imagine, in every other line of work in any industry, that employers and managers trying to get with (usually much younger) employees is a no-no. This may seem severe, but in those other industries, conflicts of interest are taken seriously. Why should it be different for classical music? Maybe I'm being idealistic.
Sorry Dave never heard of him ? As for James Levine enjoy his Mahler symphonies box set this has ofcourse always went on in human behaviour i admire Sinatra as a song stylist but hear he wasn't a very nice man and not let's not forget Politicians hahaha 😉
I have noticed that many of his recordings have popped up at Goodwill.
If the media was less interested in sex "scandals" and more interested in things that really matter, and also let people take care of their own problems, we'd live in a much more interesting culture.
How dare the media report on powerful people victimizing less powerful people who would like to keep their jobs. Why the quotes around scandals, you think getting a text from your boss with an unsolicited picture of his genitalia isn't scandalous, but just part of having an "interesting culture"?
What about facebook scams....Where people steal a photo of some actor, singer or even Opera tenor and send private messages to people with their name asking money or something.
Thankfully people are smart enough to ot believe it.
and they inform the real artist about the poser.
As some discussion on Google said Facebook has no email.
You may report the fake facebook profile, but if Facebook has no email you can not say all the details.
because the person may use the photos from Instagram or other platforms... You can not write all the info.
You may only report the profile and expect that the editors of Facebook will investigate it by themselves.
But they usually write back, the person broke no community rules.
maybe thye didnt want to investigate it immediatelly so they send whatever answer.
soi thye block the person later, even though he writes to old ladies "send me a friend request"
Some tenor wrote dont replky to them, I dint write the messages etc.
If posers may write these messages, about money scams or friend requests
i would only believe sex scandals if they were diirect, not the ones from some unknown email..
because everybody may steal the identity of some ratist.