In the Uk we think of him as a British composer and are vaguely taken aback to remember that he was German, but out of German and Italian baroque a style, he created the British style first after the Elizabethan (England did have a style) and Dunstable - that was distinctively English too. Funny; the Dutch don't seem to have Their Composer - after Sweelinck.
These categories are misleading anyway. It makes more sense to show under which kind of musical influences composers were (teachers, role models, folk music, etc.).
Is Delius an English composer? Born in Bradford, he spent most of his life in France after an influential year in Florida working on an orange plantation.
Completely agree that composer's nationality should be based on musical rather than political (i.e., jingoistic) interests. And yet I think this topic is more complicated and fascinating than that. For example, I like to make the distinction between German and Vienna schools b/c I think the latter (Haydn and Mozart) introduced an Italianate lightness to the German Lutheran school. Next, Handel is not easily characterized as British when you consider the influence on him of German composers like Telemann, to say nothing of his long Italian apprenticeship. And what about Gluck, a German guy who wrote for Italian librettists, then abandons that for French? or take Chopin, is he with his mazurkas and polonaises Polish or as the son of a Frenchman who spent his productive life in Paris, of the French school? and on and on. Great fun topic, given the proper context though by no means put to rest by this chat.
Of course it's more complicated! You are totally correct. I am merely talking about silly comments by people who think place of birth is more important than musical school when speaking of the composer's style.
I’ve come across people who claim that Vivaldi wasn’t an Italian composer and Bach wasn’t a German composer because there was no state called “Italy” or “Germany” at the time. The argument is pretty silly. What are we to make of Bach’s "Concerto nach Italienischem Gusto" (Concerto after the Italian Taste), or Purcell’s trio sonatas “after the Italian manner”? In Bach’s “Entwurf” of 1730 he mentions that there are Italian, French and Polish musical styles, and that he has to train his German musicians to perform in all of these varied styles.
Yeah, good point. I watched a video once where this person said the same thing about Leonardo Da Vinci: he shouldn't be considered italian because Italy wasn't unified back then... what was he then, an alien? 🤣 Jeez, some people just have too much free time on their hands
Maybe it’s the matter of national pride, not about musical school. People are not happy when the composer whom they are proud of is mentioned as other nationalities. But I understand this channel is about music and other things are not so important. According to Wiki, Bartok was born in Romania, brought up in Ukraine and educated in Slovakia and then move to Hungary. We can easily find that kind of information but about musical views or insights, this channel is the best.
It IS national pride, I'm afraid. That Dave does not care is what irritates the nationalists, with the "Great Britain" music collectors most easily put off. (Sorry, friends in the UK).
Agree 100%. It *is* national pride, a force not to be underestimated. We Europeans had 2 big wars over exactly this in the 20th century. And, with great respect, I wonder if it's easier for Americans to care less about this than Europeans (OK, maybe not the MAGA Americans) since America is large in so many ways and has such a strong cultural identity - compared to, say , Belgium or Denmark. But I wonder if nationalism still wouldn't matter if I said Bernstein or Copland were Canadian?
I organize my book(really CD)shelves by -ics. Germanic, Italianic, Frenchic, etc. Quite a large section for Scandinavianic. However Hungarian is just Hungarian. They are often the exception.
I would say "French school" "German school" "Italian school", which is mostly the way I organized my classical library. That said, I would also avoid misrepresenting someone's nationality. As someone whose nation still lacks its own independent country, and which can find hard to exist on the international stage (Poutine is from Québec, not Canada!) it erases the distinctions and importance of minor nations. Nations are not political constructs, countries are. Nations emerge from a shared cultural heritage, and the inspiration for comopsitions often (not always) is drawn from this heritage.
Sorry, poutine is from Canada, and the distinction only matters if you live in Canada, and no one cares about that (unless you live in Canada, which no one cares about).
@@DavesClassicalGuide Which illustrates my point: a nation without a country (an arbitrary political construct, as you say) is invisible on the international stage. Which is a valid reason to make the distinction when one is able, or go with composition schools if you don't want to make the effort. Also, Québec Libre, esti!
You are just wonderful!!! All the very best and please continue...you have indeed helped me in my discovery of Artists Performances "The best of" ....thank you so much...to Support your view" I don't care a flying f....where a composer was born....what is significant is what and how he or she performed or composed music!!!! The very best to all!!
I remember the first time I heard a record of Bizet's Symphony in C and thought it sounded really German. It was discovered by the conductor Felix Weingartner, and I thought he could have just as easily passed it off as a previously unknown symphony by Schubert.
This is a really interesting topic. How about the Scandinavians (esp Sibelius onward), would they constitute their own school? Or would they be an extension of the German?
Genuine question: what about Liszt? He was born to German-speaking Austrians in Hungary and seemed to consider himself an honorary Hungarian and he lived in Budapest later in life. But his career was international, almost like Stravinsky's. He spent large amounts of time in both France and Germany, but I'd find it hard to say that he was really part of either "school". Curious to know your thoughts.
I'm not a nationalist (or so I think), but I will say that Spanish classical music has enough personality to be considered a musical school in its own right, with genres such as zarzuela, bolero dance, guitar music... And this does not mean underestimating French and Italian influences. By the way, Scarlatti was an Spanish composer :)
I disagree. The Spanish elements all come from popular music. I love Spanish music because of it’s distinctive personality, but the forms of classical music did not originate in Spain. They are largely Italian.
Dave you're a wealth of musical knowledge and wisdom I have learned so much in the last year from watching your videos. It's like taking a course in classical music. Thanks to you I've become alot more selective in music purchasing and have built a nice collection based on your recommendations.
What about John Williams? American? (If there is such a thing)... I would think the late-romantics-because essentially he assimilated the styles of golden age Hollywood composers, who in turn were part of the German late-romantics-to form his own personal style which is also informed by jazz harmony. Interested in your thoughts!
If the music is good and the performance is solid, then we have no cause to criticize the provenance. I just started listening to the Beethoven symphony cycle by Paul Kletzki with the Czech Philharmonic. Kletzki was Polish and the Czech Philharmonic is, well, not German. This is like saying that Szell was Hungarian (I guess) and his recordings of the same works are played by an American orchestra (the Cleveland Orchestra) -- again, not a German or Austrian orchestra. Both are beyond complaint. (They sound different, and they are contemporary). I have no complaints. If I am delighted, then what complaint do I have?
I used to have an art teacher who would tell us at least once a week,"I'm an Italian painter. Sullivan. Italian." Same concept: he painted in the Italian style, and being Irish had nothing to do with it.
And there's really nothing Irish about Sullivan's Irish Symphony. But when his operas required Irish music (Emerald Isle), or Scottish or Persian or Italian or Japanese, he wrote in those idioms. Superbly and convincingly. But he was the quintessential English composer in the 19th century.
Re: Your comment about American music was German and then became French. Ned Rorem wrote about how “…The entire universe is torn between two aesthetics: French and German. Virtually everything is one or the other. Blue is French, Red is German…No is French, Yes is German. The moon is French, the Sun is German…If French is to be profoundly superficial, like Impressionism, which depicts a fleeting version of eternity, then German is to be superficially profound…”
Bravo! That needed to end with a mic drop….or a tam tam drop. One question though: Scandinavian composers. Are they their own school? Or an offshoot of the German or the Russian school.
@@benjamingreenfield9569 If you want to be broad, you could say that: the Northern European composers often used the german composition style, so they are at least influenced by the german school. For example, they often composed symphonies, which are mostly absent from the French, Italian and Hispanic schools, which would favor opera and theater music.
And Prokofiev was Ukrainian, so there!! 😅😅 I rather imagine Benjamin Britten would have declared himself a Suffolk composer, too... These are treacherous rabbit holes down which to descend! 😂
@orlandofurioso2034 Not sure of the relevance. The fact is, Prokofiev was born in Sontsivka, which is in Donetsk, which is in Ukraine. At least for now. My parents came from London and Portsmouth: I'm still a man of Kent. The joke, of course, being that I agree with David.
The only category Haydn fits in is Haydn. He put classical music and form on the map as one of music's greatest innovators. Who cares if he was born in Austria and worked and lived most of his life in Hungary.
Thought you were going to rant about the equally nonsensical belief that a Russian piece of music can only be well-interpreted by a Russian musican etc..
Bax was Baxian! How dare you, Dave, insult planet Baxia by categorising Arnold as a brit.
The case of Handel is particularly interesting. Is he more German, Italian or British ? I think the answer is : he is European !
In the Uk we think of him as a British composer and are vaguely taken aback to remember that he was German, but out of German and Italian baroque a style, he created the British style first after the Elizabethan (England did have a style) and Dunstable - that was distinctively English too. Funny; the Dutch don't seem to have Their Composer - after Sweelinck.
These categories are misleading anyway. It makes more sense to show under which kind of musical influences composers were (teachers, role models, folk music, etc.).
He was Baroque!(?)
@@ayethein7681 Didn't Schumann say that England was the land without music and what did he actually mean by that?
@@ayethein7681 Yes we do. Hendrik Andriessen.
Is Delius an English composer? Born in Bradford, he spent most of his life in France after an influential year in Florida working on an orange plantation.
I've always thought of Delius as an Impressionist who had more in common with Debussy and Ravel than Elgar and Holst.
Delius was once quoted as saying "I don't claim to be a British composer."
Completely agree that composer's nationality should be based on musical rather than political (i.e., jingoistic) interests. And yet I think this topic is more complicated and fascinating than that. For example, I like to make the distinction between German and Vienna schools b/c I think the latter (Haydn and Mozart) introduced an Italianate lightness to the German Lutheran school. Next, Handel is not easily characterized as British when you consider the influence on him of German composers like Telemann, to say nothing of his long Italian apprenticeship. And what about Gluck, a German guy who wrote for Italian librettists, then abandons that for French? or take Chopin, is he with his mazurkas and polonaises Polish or as the son of a Frenchman who spent his productive life in Paris, of the French school? and on and on. Great fun topic, given the proper context though by no means put to rest by this chat.
Of course it's more complicated! You are totally correct. I am merely talking about silly comments by people who think place of birth is more important than musical school when speaking of the composer's style.
I’ve come across people who claim that Vivaldi wasn’t an Italian composer and Bach wasn’t a German composer because there was no state called “Italy” or “Germany” at the time. The argument is pretty silly. What are we to make of Bach’s "Concerto nach Italienischem Gusto" (Concerto after the Italian Taste), or Purcell’s trio sonatas “after the Italian manner”? In Bach’s “Entwurf” of 1730 he mentions that there are Italian, French and Polish musical styles, and that he has to train his German musicians to perform in all of these varied styles.
Yeah, good point. I watched a video once where this person said the same thing about Leonardo Da Vinci: he shouldn't be considered italian because Italy wasn't unified back then... what was he then, an alien? 🤣 Jeez, some people just have too much free time on their hands
I wish Dave was my tutor at university, I may have got a better grade in my history degree.
Maybe it’s the matter of national pride, not about musical school. People are not happy when the composer whom they are proud of is mentioned as other nationalities. But I understand this channel is about music and other things are not so important. According to Wiki, Bartok was born in Romania, brought up in Ukraine and educated in Slovakia and then move to Hungary. We can easily find that kind of information but about musical views or insights, this channel is the best.
It IS national pride, I'm afraid. That Dave does not care is what irritates the nationalists, with the "Great Britain" music collectors most easily put off. (Sorry, friends in the UK).
Agree 100%. It *is* national pride, a force not to be underestimated. We Europeans had 2 big wars over exactly this in the 20th century. And, with great respect, I wonder if it's easier for Americans to care less about this than Europeans (OK, maybe not the MAGA Americans) since America is large in so many ways and has such a strong cultural identity - compared to, say , Belgium or Denmark. But I wonder if nationalism still wouldn't matter if I said Bernstein or Copland were Canadian?
I organize my book(really CD)shelves by -ics. Germanic, Italianic, Frenchic, etc. Quite a large section for Scandinavianic.
However Hungarian is just Hungarian. They are often the exception.
"Cesar Franck belged all the time". Classic(al!) 😂
I would say "French school" "German school" "Italian school", which is mostly the way I organized my classical library. That said, I would also avoid misrepresenting someone's nationality. As someone whose nation still lacks its own independent country, and which can find hard to exist on the international stage (Poutine is from Québec, not Canada!) it erases the distinctions and importance of minor nations.
Nations are not political constructs, countries are. Nations emerge from a shared cultural heritage, and the inspiration for comopsitions often (not always) is drawn from this heritage.
_"Poutine is from Québec, not Canada!"_ - I thought he was from St Petersburg ;)
Sorry, poutine is from Canada, and the distinction only matters if you live in Canada, and no one cares about that (unless you live in Canada, which no one cares about).
@@DavesClassicalGuide Which illustrates my point: a nation without a country (an arbitrary political construct, as you say) is invisible on the international stage. Which is a valid reason to make the distinction when one is able, or go with composition schools if you don't want to make the effort.
Also, Québec Libre, esti!
I've said it before & I will say it again....I wish I had you as a professor in college 👍
You are just wonderful!!! All the very best and please continue...you have indeed helped me in my discovery of Artists Performances "The best of" ....thank you so much...to Support your view" I don't care a flying f....where a composer was born....what is significant is what and how he or she performed or composed music!!!! The very best to all!!
I remember the first time I heard a record of Bizet's Symphony in C and thought it sounded really German. It was discovered by the conductor Felix Weingartner, and I thought he could have just as easily passed it off as a previously unknown symphony by Schubert.
I don’t think it sounds anything like Schubert.
Genuine question: where do you fit Brazil in those categories?
It depends on the composer to a degree, but the culture was Italian/French. Colonialism at its best.
This is a really interesting topic. How about the Scandinavians (esp Sibelius onward), would they constitute their own school? Or would they be an extension of the German?
I too was wondering where the Nordic composers would fit in. Grieg, Nielsen, Sibelius, Berwald etc. My guess would also be Germanic school mostly.
Genuine question: what about Liszt?
He was born to German-speaking Austrians in Hungary and seemed to consider himself an honorary Hungarian and he lived in Budapest later in life. But his career was international, almost like Stravinsky's. He spent large amounts of time in both France and Germany, but I'd find it hard to say that he was really part of either "school". Curious to know your thoughts.
And ended up at the Villa d'Este near Rome where he had become an abbe.
And if memory serves me, Liszt spoke little or no Hungarian.
I'm not a nationalist (or so I think), but I will say that Spanish classical music has enough personality to be considered a musical school in its own right, with genres such as zarzuela, bolero dance, guitar music... And this does not mean underestimating French and Italian influences. By the way, Scarlatti was an Spanish composer :)
I disagree. The Spanish elements all come from popular music. I love Spanish music because of it’s distinctive personality, but the forms of classical music did not originate in Spain. They are largely Italian.
Dave you're a wealth of musical knowledge and wisdom I have learned so much in the last year from watching your videos. It's like taking a course in classical music. Thanks to you I've become alot more selective in music purchasing and have built a nice collection based on your recommendations.
What about John Williams? American? (If there is such a thing)... I would think the late-romantics-because essentially he assimilated the styles of golden age Hollywood composers, who in turn were part of the German late-romantics-to form his own personal style which is also informed by jazz harmony. Interested in your thoughts!
Interesting question, but this is not the place to answer!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Fair enough!
Interesting that Bedřich Smetana grew up speaking German. He struggled to learn Czech speach and grammar in mid-life.
He likely lived in bohemia , which was once part of Germany, was German speaking, but became part of Czechoslovakia.
If the music is good and the performance is solid, then we have no cause to criticize the provenance. I just started listening to the Beethoven symphony cycle by Paul Kletzki with the Czech Philharmonic. Kletzki was Polish and the Czech Philharmonic is, well, not German. This is like saying that Szell was Hungarian (I guess) and his recordings of the same works are played by an American orchestra (the Cleveland Orchestra) -- again, not a German or Austrian orchestra. Both are beyond complaint. (They sound different, and they are contemporary). I have no complaints.
If I am delighted, then what complaint do I have?
Ah ce soupçon.... Thank you for this breath of fresh air 👍
“Musically, I am never wrong. NEVER.” I petition that this be the title for every future video.
Just one opinion here--the defendant is not guilty of this charge
I used to have an art teacher who would tell us at least once a week,"I'm an Italian painter. Sullivan. Italian." Same concept: he painted in the Italian style, and being Irish had nothing to do with it.
And there's really nothing Irish about Sullivan's Irish Symphony. But when his operas required Irish music (Emerald Isle), or Scottish or Persian or Italian or Japanese, he wrote in those idioms. Superbly and convincingly. But he was the quintessential English composer in the 19th century.
Equally good advice for non-musical matters these days, as well!
Would you consider Sibelius as the German school?
He did. That was his market, and where he was published.
Re: Your comment about American music was German and then became French.
Ned Rorem wrote about how “…The entire universe is torn between two aesthetics: French and German. Virtually everything is one or the other. Blue is French, Red is German…No is French, Yes is German. The moon is French, the Sun is German…If French is to be profoundly superficial, like Impressionism, which depicts a fleeting version of eternity, then German is to be superficially profound…”
Bravo!
That needed to end with a mic drop….or a tam tam drop.
One question though:
Scandinavian composers.
Are they their own school? Or an offshoot of the German or the Russian school.
Definitely on their own
@ Well that’s what I’ve always thought but didn’t hear them mentioned and was curious where Dave would classify them.
@@benjamingreenfield9569 If you want to be broad, you could say that: the Northern European composers often used the german composition style, so they are at least influenced by the german school. For example, they often composed symphonies, which are mostly absent from the French, Italian and Hispanic schools, which would favor opera and theater music.
That's true, but there is (I think) a Scandinavian school as a distinct branch of the German.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I’m curious as to the specifics of why, but this makes sense to my ears.
Franck was naturalized French so that solves it 😁
"To be sure [the Duke of Wellington] was born in Ireland, but being born in a stable does not make a man a horse." --David O'Connolly
Kaiser Franz Josef of Austria regarded himself as a "German monarch".
One would think this was obvious. Good rant.
And Prokofiev was Ukrainian, so there!! 😅😅
I rather imagine Benjamin Britten would have declared himself a Suffolk composer, too... These are treacherous rabbit holes down which to descend! 😂
His father was from Moscow; his mother came from a Saint Petersburg.
@orlandofurioso2034 Not sure of the relevance. The fact is, Prokofiev was born in Sontsivka, which is in Donetsk, which is in Ukraine. At least for now. My parents came from London and Portsmouth: I'm still a man of Kent.
The joke, of course, being that I agree with David.
Bravo ❤️👌
I may be wrong, but I think German Handel was more English in his music. I agree that nationality doesn't matter, but influences do. Good video.
Italian melodies influenced Handel.
The only category Haydn fits in is Haydn. He put classical music and form on the map as one of music's greatest innovators. Who cares if he was born in Austria and worked and lived most of his life in Hungary.
And did some of his finest work while in on tour in London, to boot. Truly cosmopolitan.
Thought you were going to rant about the equally nonsensical belief that a Russian piece of music can only be well-interpreted by a Russian musican etc..
I already made that video.
What is the title of that video please? I would like to find it.
Favorite rant thus far. Amazing.
Sock it to them dave ✌
I love watching you talk. A great voice for classical music history and culture.
Thank you.