The Train Route That Confuses Ticket Apps
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- When you try to use a ticket app to buy a ticket from anywhere on the Borderlands Line to the Hope Valley Line, they seem to get somewhat confused and give you very bizarre routes.. Let's do a more logical version of one of them!
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It's not that it confuses the journey planners, its more so that the journey from Penyffordd to Edale via Shotton/Manchester Piccadilly isn't a valid route, so it shows you the only trains running that *do* offer the valid route, which is via Wrexham and Chester instead.
It's not valid, ultimately because you're going further than you need to, (up to Shotton) but there's only 2 services in a day that allow the correct transfers at the right stations. TfW are the flow owners for this fare, so might be worth reaching out to them and getting clarification because it's always a pretty interesting topic
I see. This ‘valid route’ system is outdated, broken, and makes very little sense to regular travellers, let alone most enthusiasts like Nick… you literally have to find and read this microsoft excel document with tens of thousands of lines to be able to find what the valid routes are for your journey. I wish I was joking but im not. The infrastructure on our railway is excellent and so improved compared what it was 5-10 years ago, but the backend systems are as broken as ever.
@@Nooticus Don't be silly, they're not going to provide you with an Excel document with tens of thousands of lines...the Yellow Pages (what you refer to) is a 2,270-page long PDF document with 39 lines of routeings on each page! That makes, to my count... 88,530 lines. Ouch.
@@wintrwunderland indeed!! it was definitely about that many...
@@wintrwunderland What's really going to make the mind boggle is that in 1996, when the Routeing Guide first launched, there were 140 yellow pages with 72 lines of text on each, which is just 10,080 lines in total.
There are now 38 pages of 'easements', which are best read by computers, in comparison to the original 8 pages, set out by operator and including address and phone numbers for each 'pricing manager'.
The problem is not that the system is outdated, it is that it has become too complicated because of greed.
It is valid on JG+HO (changing between Routeing Maps at Stockport), and I cannot see an 'Easement' to forbid it.
The Journey Planners really are only as good as their programming. The current Routeing Guide is littered with 'Easements' that are there purely to help the Journey Planners work out valid journeys.
For those of us not familiar with the area, it would’ve helped showing some kind of map at the beginning of the video.
Yes. I have not clue what and where he was talking about, except for it probably being somewhere in the UK.
Google maps?
Nah, openstreetmap is where it's at.
Agreed! A nice map and route would be really helpful for such videos!
The TPE train getting cancelled twice and then the following train also being cancelled is the most TPE thing I've ever seen
Godspeed TPE, never change lol
TPE, never express and frequently not trans. Should be Cis Pennine Sluggish.
(This is in the Latin sense, nothing to do with sex and gender, just to be clear)
They must have looked at Southern and thought that's the way to run a train service 😂
Any split-ticket supporting journey planner actually does show this journey as they use there own routing algorithms rather than using the National Rail Enquiries one.
Broooo no way just I found this video lol
I put it in Google Maps and it recommended this journey - guess that's why!
their*
No different algorithm is needed; it's simply down to the TOCs being obsessed with not offering combinations of tickets. Except Chiltern do, but not as well as Trainsplit
Tricking the app into giving you the journey you want
is an art form in its own right
Trainsplit will do it; other ones don't come close
Merseyrail offers a great quirk for pricing. Chester to Blackpool is £37.00 return or thereabouts. Hooton to Blackpool is £25.00 and has a permitted route through (with a change of service in) Chester.
Did you check if the ticket office staff knew the straightforward journey? Apps are supposed to replace them, but the ticket prices from the ticket office are often cheaper.
Penyffordd station has no ticket office, no ticket machines, and no waiting room. Just a couple of bus shelters, a bike rack, and a car park. And a signalbox.
On National Rail enquiries the greenford line is not shown for West Ealing to Greenford, even though the branch is shorter and more frequent
Very little makes sense with the Greenford line, such as why GWR has hung on to it and not tried to pass it off to TfL as an Overground line.
@@metropod I bet noone wants the line, noone needs the line. It still open because it's London + it's way beyond beeching now
(Actually I bet it doesn't lose that much money right?)
I had a similar problem when trying to travel the Brigg line, National Rail wouldn't sell an 'any permitted route' ticket Nottingham-Barnetby, I'm guessing because of the limited service. Like you I'm finding I'm visiting a split level station much more than usual recently, in my case it's Tamworth. Keep up showing us the obscure journeys.
I assume the original idea was to do Hope to Hope. if not that would maybe be an interesting video idea
Stoney Middleton to Middleton Stoney appears not to be a rail route as only one has a station, but along the lines of the Liege Bastogne Liege cycle race there could be a Middleton Stoney Stoney Middleton Middleton Stoney cycle race.
Penyffordd - my home station! And good job on the pronunciation 🙂
Mine too,
Subscribed. Would have been good to have a map or diagram.
wigan wallgate to wigan north western
I’m surprised you didn’t do Hope (Clwyd) to Hope (Derbyshire)! 😜
He was beyond Hope
Or the two Shottons - the one in Wales and the one in County Durham - or other places that have identical names!
I did Moreton (Dorset) to Moreton (Merseyside) a few years ago
Pontefract Monkhill (or Tanshelf) to Pontefract Baghill would be a good "pointless journey" for the future. Monkhill to Tanshelf would be a bit uneventful of course!
6:15 is right as there is the holyhead - birmingham intl service that goes through chester via wrexham
This ‘valid route’ system is outdated, broken, and makes very little sense to regular travellers, let alone most enthusiasts like Nick… you literally have to find and read this microsoft excel document with tens of thousands of lines to be able to find what the valid routes are for your journey. I wish I was joking but im not. The infrastructure on our railway is excellent and so improved compared what it was 5-10 years ago, but the backend systems are as broken as ever.
Great video though btw!
One reason why I would never trust a single app for journey planning, but also check other sources of information such as National Rail Enquiries and Real Time Trains. Some of the results they come up with are totally weird and make no sense
An interesting anomaly - could this be a new series?
Can we up the ante on the Hope to Hope suggestion and do Whitchurch to Whitchurch to Whitchurch. Any order, I don't mind!
This might interest you: If you try Penyffordd to Edale in the journey planer of Deutsche Bahn (German Railways), it shows the route you took and even more. From the morning to midnight it shows more than 20 different travel times.
common DB Navigator W
@@subway8448 yep
Thought I'd check this out in the South Western railway app and that one does give you journeys via Shotton and Piccadilly and will happily sell you a ticket via that route
10am to 3pm.... least amount of busyness??? You mean.... off peak????
Another way to do this is Bidston, Lime Street, EMR to Edale.
Edit: Just put it into Google maps out of curiosity. It's the actual recommended route, and is only 3 hours and 2 minutes.
Journeys from St Budeaux are like that. Like many places the legacy of having two railway companies gave the village two stations. St Budeaux Ferry Road two platforms on Great Western and St Budeaux Victoria Road now a single platform on the old LSWR.
Fares vary from both stations despite being a few metres apart.
Unlike most multistation places that have an all stations ticket St Budeaux missed this luxury!
This situation perfectly sums up the ridiculousness of the rial fare system.
As do plenty of other things. My local station is Marple. A Marple to Shrewsbury return is £47.40 according to the National Rail site. Marple - Man Picc return is £6.70 and Man Picc - Shrewsbury return is £28.80 for a total of £35.50. Quite a difference. Totally baffling.
@@davidjackson2580 Brinnington here. there was a time not so long ago where, anyone wanting a train to Manchester had to get a train to Bredbury (one stop) make like a fully charged superhero to cross the pedestrian bridge to the opposite platform to catch the train to Manchester - because between 4 - 6pm, no trains stopped here for Manchester. even the frequency of trains from Manchester was screwy, with some terminating at Rose Hill and some going to Sheffield - and sometimes, with limited stops, if you were on the wrong train hoping to swap - you had to play it carefully. and the Sheffield train is always packed out and standing room only - both directions (and only 2 carriages... yeah, gotta love rail maths, right? 🤦♀)
if you're disabled - you're screwed.
the winner: stagecoach buses, £5 dayrider.
interesting station worthy of note: Reddish South. one train per week!
Try buying a ticket from Hull to Edinburgh for travel after 8am. LNER's website claims "No outbound trains match your search", results from Northern and Cross Country are variable.
We provide the journey planner for TrainSplit. As others have commented, via Shotton and Manchester isn't a Permitted Route. Our route diagnostics show:
Through Mapped Route
Checking SHT-CTR-G31-G78-G20-CLY
Off route at Chinley
Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route.
That's... weird. Back in the day (like, 25 years ago) I was a Routeing Guide expert, so I picked up the Routeing Guide again. The relevant Routeing Points are Shotton and Chinley, as you said; and the maps are JG+HO, JO+HO and MJ+HO. The really weird part is that HO, which covers the Hope Valley line, does not include Stockport-Manchester. Nevertheless, JG gets you from Shotton via Frodsham, Warrington BQ and Newton-le-Willows to Manchester and on to Stockport if need be.
So I can't figure out how the Routeing Guide prevents this -- is there a data error somewhere?
The Hope Valley stopper doesn't go via Stockport. It goes via Reddish North, and that's the problem. You can either switch from map JG to map HO at Stockport, or at Manchester. But if you switch maps at Manchester, it forces the route to go via Guide Bridge instead.@@alistairbell3935
@@alistairbell3935As you say, Shotton - Chinley is JG+HO, JO+HO, MJ+HO.
You have to switch to the next map at the earliest common point you go through. In this case, you have to switch to HO at Warrington as you have to go via Warrington (only route between the two maps) and that point is on both JG and HO.
This means you're limited to getting to Chinley via Manchester and Guide Bridge as HO doesn't contain Manchester to Stockport.
You wonder whether going to a ticket office (while you still can!) might have caused you to be offered this option. As far as I am concerned, a very-slightly-longer journey that has fewer changes is better for me and most passengers, because you can settle down for the journey and only have to pick up all your luggage when transferring.
Exactly, if a journey is more than 3 trains I generally won't bother and I don't really have the time or knowledge to be researching optimum routes - that's what the ticket finder algorithms are supposed to do for me!
If you're starting from Penyffordd, there *is* no ticket office.
Good luck if starting at (insert correct spelling of pennyford here) because apparently there is no ticket office there
Split tickets can be strange sometimes...
i live in Eastbourne on the South Coast and to travel across London they always tell you to use the underground which is another expense rather than using overground routes which you can get discounted fares on. I very rarely use the underground as i can go from Eastbourne to St Pancras, Kings Cross and Paddington by overground routes.
I regularly travel to Edale from Bootle to go hiking so found this video particularly interesting
This video could have benefitted from a map.
The SBB Mobile App does show the route via Manchester Piccadilly, probably because you can't by UK Tickets on there.
I actually found a route in Ireland which goes from one station to another 25 km away which you can go by 3 other lines to get there for the same price journey time 3 hrs plus
Which Stations?
@@haddockman30 Templemore to ballybrophy via Waterford back to Kildare to ballybrophy.
On a single ticket it's only one part of the day
The uk ticket 🎫 system is broken, way too complicated and expensive. God help the punter when they kill off what’s left of the booking offices. Not that many conductors left that will sell you a ticket over fining you for not having one. Try booking an rail and sail ticket to Ireland 🇮🇪 by avoiding online and a ticket office. The ticket vending machines can sell them but almost all of them don’t have the destination programmed in. I think the unofficial reason is that the ticket could be a lot cheaper than an local uk rail journey, so it makes sense to make the purchase of them so difficult 😥
Ime IF you seek out a conductor to obtain a ticket they are usually very accommodating. If you are a teen and not even bothered to do that expect them to be erring on the side of fare evasion
On a certain website, it follows the same journey you do with all-day services as an option 😂
I’ve been through penyffordd station on the borderlands line from Wrexham central-Bidston-Liverpool Lime Street Low Level.
I've had similar issues here in Germany, where the Public Transit Apps don't consider certain options, because their internal planning logic tries to reduce waiting times and/or increase connection security, making it give comical routes, which send you to the middle of nowhere since that way you spend less time waiting on a train, despite the arrival time being the same, and no alternate connections being available from there.
I actually like having a little extra time between changes for unfamiliar journeys in case my first train is delayed (very likely in the UK unfortunately) or if the change is a little tricky (some station layouts are a bit baffling if you're unfamiliar with that station). On the flipside, for journeys I know well, I'd like it to offer me the 5 minute change option so I can decide what's feasible for me.
@@hannahk1306 In the App I use, I can set my Walking speed (slow, average, fast). Since it actually considers how far different platforms are away from each other. Since I set it to high though, I sometimes get the instruction to just walk 5km since it's faster than waiting for the next train, which is funny.
@@tsume_akuma8321 Yeah, I've seen those settings too, but I'd rather it just gave me all of the reasonable options because walking speed I find is often the least relevant factor. Navigability of the station, how busy the trains/platforms are (it's irrelevant how quickly I can walk when there's a hoard of other passengers in my way), if it's a train where passengers are likely to have luggage, how close the platforms are and how they can be accessed (flat, stairs, escalators, lifts, ticket barriers) and familiarity with the station are all more relevant to me than how quickly I can walk (they also never give speed estimates with those).
The German app literally should promote itself with: "Nett hier - aber waren Sie schon mal in Neudietendorf" :D As the app will always try to send you there
Brilliant video Nick, Nice to see you finally got a 230 ride. Also I see TPE are still TPE lol.
Even though they now owned by the government
@@BMWM5sarecool 185s owned by Eversholt Rail, and same staff as before.
Nothing's changed, so nothing's changed....
@andrewnelson4057 The trains may be owned by Eversholt, but the operator has changed which would usually see a full rebrand (e.g. Virgin Wedt Coast became Avanti)
@@andrewnelson4057 Well, they’re working on the training backlog, but the results of that won’t be seen until probably the end of 2024…
It does look odd seeing the Class 230 with 'normal' seating, as I have many memories of them in their correct form as the D Stock, going past my old school in Southfields!
Which school… if you don’t mind me asking 👀 (I also went to school in Southfields)
Wandsworth Boys School (1977-84)
Privitazaion, wonderfull ! Except, delays and cancelations wich are too common nowadays not bad result. Computer aren´t humans who are much less inteligent than. Disapointment, too narrow changing times, alternative routes, not the shortest wich allways the basis shortest time not always viable. That time for such short regional journey is really outrages, from london to edinburgh your just about the same what distance do we have than ?
Privatisation has meant money going out of the country. I believe most railway services are owned by foreign companies. Just re nationalise them
A map explaining all of this would be nice
Funny, this reminds me a bunch of how google maps often generates and recommends some very odd travel plans between locations in New York City because it tries to minimize the amount of walking distance before anything else. I recently was recommended a strange route going way out of the way and taking like 3 transfers which would have resulted in a a 30 minute trip to a local office supply store that I could have gotten to in 15 minutes without any transfers by walking 2 more blocks.
Great vid as always! 🎉
Same with me travelling too Leicester from NCL. I was having to go down to either KGX and walk too Paddington to travel back up or cross-country too chesterfield too swap too Leicester. Then found out there was a Birmingham to Gatwick train via Leicester and Peterborough while i was there ..Not on any Train apps.
Well, you can be glad that your journey planner is not as stupid as the german DB app... that DB app when you try to use the regional trains from going somewhere in the north to somewhere in the south will ALWAYS try to send you via a small 1 1/2 platform stop where you get greeded by a one car train similar to a pacer for then around 200-300 passengers...
I had a quick look on National Rail and (if I'd been in Penyffordd, which I wasn't) I could have done it it 2h 36m. But with 5 changes, and for thirty quid without my railcard. But it DID show journeys via Shotton and Picadilly as well.
Trainplanner allergic to Shotton shock - there needs to be an 'Expert User' mode on these apps, whereby you can suggest a route \m/
...when Wales starts this 20mph speed limit for ALL vehicles, does this include trains and boats/ships? (Asking for a friend)
You might want to include a map so people not familiar with the lines in that area know what the hell you're talking about.
Especially as you don't sound like you're originally from that area.
The issue you mention happens with train journeys all over the country, of course.
The best times to film are between 10am and 4pm on weekdays...
Funny that, as it seems to coincide with the times that people are usually working for a living.
5:38 I noticed on this video and whenever I ride a 231, but the voiceover says "Welcome aboard Transport for Wale" and it confuses me.
Did you say the planner was 3 stops. If so then if your elderly or a mobility disability All that getting on off will be bad any luggage or children/pushchairs will be hard to get off as well.
On a planner not can you ask them why it dose it (excuse maybe not a straight ticket£ and see if there is any other more routes like that as we need to eradicate this type a stuff
If you'd gone one more station down the line from Penyffordd, you could have done "Hope" to "Hope" and thrown in some "Hopeless" & "Hopeful" puns.
Dunno why you care. Trains suck. I wouldn't dislike them so much if they weren't so damn expensive.
For next point to point:
Newtonmore to Newton Abbott via Newton (Lanark), Newton-on-Ayr, Newton for hyde and Newton-le-Willows
I tried doing the journey Nick did on my journey planner app and I ended up with 6 different journeys I could do per day.
Brilliant nick! Well done
All very Jarvis Cocker in face, accent and manners. Don't worry, that's a compliment.
Finding direct journeys on SailRail from Manchester (preferably Manchester Victoria) to Holyhead for the ferry to Dublin is a real hassle on any app and with any train operator, as is going from Platform 13 at Manchester Piccadilly and changing at Chester is a real pain - many of these trains don’t even call at Deansgate/Castlefield which makes connecting with Metrolink Trams so much easier
Finally Nick gets his 230!
brilliant video
TH-cam is a strange place.
We are watching someone ride public transit.
I used to ride the 230 units when they were on the District Line before being refurbished and converted.
I find the modern trains are cold clinical excessively loud and unpleasant to ride over all.
Whats your beef with sprinters?! Defo not a real enthusiast XD
Hi Nick another excellent and enjoyable video and thank you so much for making them.
the chester line to birmingham international isn't wrong. i've taken it before.
wtf is wrong with UK and cancelling so many trains XD its actually hilarious
imagine if TFW had got a 3 car 150 to just troll nick
50 mins at Pic and you didn't do a Jen style Costa feature?!
Very excited to be doing the Hope Valley Line next weekend.
Put In Newmarket to kings lynn it can't find anything
Well at least you’ve solved the broader mystery - the algorithm targets speed. They need a button for “minimise cost”, or someone else can build that.
But yeah 2 choices per day is NOT appropriate. For each given minute of the day, at the destination, there is one “best speed” choice of journey from the starting point. Put all those in a list, delete the duplicates, and you’ll be left with dozens hopefully. Not two.
Wales is tbh the worst area in the UK its sooo run down and impoverished
England's network always amazes me in how bad it can be. TPE apparently has had cancellation rates as high as 30% over a month. In Melbourne the lower limit is 98% of services running (ignoring major upgrade works), and even then we complain.
Love Transpennine. Cancel the train and get your journey for free
great video nick
Hi Nick, do you ever use apps that work out the cheapest fares using split ticketing? I wonder if one of those would've spotted this route you took.
I tend to use TrainSplit to find out the most optimal split ticketing options, then book those. Unless there isn't a split ticket option for my journey, then I'll just use a TOC app.
No! You are the recipient of positive words
me when i fail my attempt at pickpocketing
Try Catford to Catford Bridge I race you
Lovely vid once again nick!
National rail app works fine
I always have issues with journeys to South-West from Waterloo. Even putting in the via it doesn’t want to give the options and you can’t buy one ticket either.
Worst I've ever had was from Virgin Trains' website about 15 years ago. It was so bad that I saved it. Runcorn East to Warrington Bank Quay. 7 minutes, no intermediate stations, piss-easy. Well:
Depart Arrive Travel by Duration
0708 Runcorn East 0715 Warrington Bank Quay Train 0:07
0715 Warrington Bank Quay 0749 Warrington Central Walk 0:34
0749 Warrington Central 0752 Padgate Train 0:03
Change train at Padgate - 0:16 connection time
0808 Padgate 0812 Warrington Central Train 0:04
0812 Warrington Central 0837 Warrington Bank Quay Walk 0:25
I found a ticket from penyfford to edale for £8.45 and is a pretty frequent service 1. 2FXX to Bidston 2. 2WXX to Liverpool lime st 3. 2AXX to Piccadilly 4. 2S82 to Edale albeit with a 4h 47 journey time... The journey in this video however is available on railboard and is a pretty neat little app that shows you all departures from a station as well as train heading codes for any train nerds such as myself! I reccomend checking it out if you get a minute (not sponsered lol)
Sounds like a tube train.
You arrived at Chester on 4A the back of it where you were sitting was on 4B. Manchester trains leave off 4A. The Birmingham ones leave off 4B. So it wasn’t wrong. Also, my new favourite train to drive are the 230’s. They’re quirky but rapid. Now they’ve lowered the max temp of the batteries they seem to be a lot more reliable. Still some issues to sort but they’re good.
I have noticed using Google for bus planning that one of the things it seems to quietly optimize for is short wait times for transfers. Most of the time I don't think it makes much difference but sometimes the recommendations are notably different than what I would choose.
If you try to go from Wolverhampton to Walsall or vice versa you need split tickets to do the shortest journey, changing at Tame Bridge Parkway. The cheapest journey takes twice as long via Birmingham.
I've just put in Penyffordd to Edale via Shotton into National Rail Journey Planner. Route shows up with a price £17,31 taking 3 hrs 41 min.
zour on a d train - ex D stock
Out of interest how common is it for the ticket apps to give unoptimised journeys (i.e. where the ticket for a given route could be bought for less if done manually with some tweaking)?
Nick, you can't buy a ticket between Runcorn and Runcorn East because they are considered interchange stations... Despite being about 5 miles apart and with no direct bus service between them either.
There seems to be a whole new genre of YT videos which might be called 'Nerds on Trains' - most are entertaining, but Steve marsh is the most entertaining I've found (he also uses planes, busses, shanks' pony and ferries).
I don’t trust train apps at all. I think that they are so confusing to use and most of the time they always get the information wrong. Same with bus apps as well.
you're probably not going to read this but here goes anyway;
the way to pronounce penyffordd is closer to nevord
I was even unable to find a route from Cheltenham to Great Malvern. Which should be straightforward - change at one of the Worcester stations. Which is (once more) why we still need ticket offices.
Train speedrunner guy