I did what you did ~2010. Now I'm getting ready to upgrade again because LEDs have come so far. They are now efficient and have a wider spectrum source than fluorescent - so they're more like sunlight or a good incandescent. Light loss from fixtures does figure in, but you can just look for ANSI-spec. It measures fixture lumens rather than bulb lumens. I'll probably install the 44watt CREE CR 4' LED troffers which give 4,000 lumens at 4,100Kelvin which is a near perfect "sunlight" white.
Thx 4 a wonderful video.After reading many posts about T12,T8, and T5, I finally understood the whole deal from your clear and simple explanation. You inspired me to install work lights in our garage and to switch an existing T12 48" 2 Lamp fixture in our laundry room to a T8. The part no. for a 2 lamp electronic ballast is QTP2X32T8.In Dec 2012, prices on T8 shop lamps have come down. For an American T8 Fluorescent PPS232RC PPS 2 Lamp Shop Light at Ron's Home & Hardware, the price is $31.00.
It seems almost every video you make is something I needed to know more about. Thanks for all of your selfless contributions. I came to your same conclusions about LED's vs. fluorescent bulbs from my research as well, plus the quality of the light is better too.
Thanks for this video. We needed brighter lighting in our retail store. Easier to swap out the ballasts than we thought it would be. There are videos that show how. Found the electronic ballasts at 1000bulbs at about $12.50 each. We used the 5000K T8 bulbs Litetronics L-337 - F32T8/850 and have been amazed at the difference. The front of our store is all glass and the new lighting makes it look like the daylight extends throughout the store. Saving on the electric bill is a bonus.
You rock Ben! Just a quick note about retrofitting older magnetic ballast to new electronic ballast. If anyone is planning on doing this please do your research first before changing anything. One thing to keep in mind is the type of existing magnetic ballast whether it is rapid start or instant start. Rapid start magnetic ballast are wired differently from instant start. If you don't change the wiring at the "tombstone" pin socket it may still run but it will shorten the life of the bulb considerably. Look up shunted socket vs non-shunted. You can either add a jumper or change out the socket. Also don't just throw in t8 bulbs without changing the ballast. The bulbs won't last very long.
Excellent video. Purchased the recommended ballast on eBay and exact bulbs at Lowes. Incredible lighting upgrade for only $29 total cost. It's like daylight in my garage!
Im looking for one that works good for terrarium. This tutorial was among the best. It really covered a lot of relevant territory with just the shop light function alone.
This video was posted in 2011. It is very much OUT OF DATE because of the substantial increase in the performance of LEDs and the reduction in price of LEDs. I would suggest that you get your information regarding LED choice and decisions from RECENT sources.
Bulb: (Electricity): a. the glass housing, in which a partial vacuum has been established, that contains the filament of an incandescent electric lamp. b. an incandescent or fluorescent electric lamp. ;) hope that helps. it suprised me as well :D
I replaced T-12 for T-8. The ballast wire colour change out was kinda goofy: Yellow is common (no problem) BUT the "other ends" of the T-12's, there you find TWO pairs per bulb. (I had two blues, two reds, two greys, and two browns.) On the new electronic ballasts, you have two reds and two blues, just four wires, not eight. Well, you just tie the pairs together, run a red to one tube, a red to another, a blue to one, and the last blue, and you are all set. I like a LOT of light, the T-8's rock!
You are the smartest man on TH-cam but this video, (and your shop lights) which was fine in 2011, might need an update to the glowing diode light source for 2019.
T5 stays mostly in the undercabinet light market (due to size) as well as the professional warehouse/highbay units as they have high light output similar to HID and LED. I have a T5 fixture in my washroom and it works great.
I think one thing to consider about the t5's is the restrike (I think that's what it's called). Because of their smaller diameter, the light they put off is not blocked by the bulb, so more light is transmitted.
4:04 how far we've come, and I just got done putting tunable LED strips in my garage to supplement the old tubes. 10w for what literally looks like more light
I installed T5's in my garage. Although they work OK and give sufficient light, I would install T8's if I would do it again. The contacts on both ends of the T5 tubes are very close together and that means they are more susceptible to stress when you turn them. I have had to bend them a little bit on occasion because they got crooked when I turned them fast or loose.
I thought I'd seen every one of your videos...! At my last job (as a maint tech)...in a sheet metal working shop, they had about 120 fixtures, each had 4, 4ft T12's.....previous maint guy installed fixtures with 277 only electronic ballasts on 208 circuits....about 1/2 the lamps didn't work....I changed the power input to 277, changed all the lamps to T8's (4200 K color..daylight white).....pretty much fixed the problem, except I had to replace about 15 electronic ballasts...I used the same Sylvania multi-volt....they work on anything from 120 to 277.....
T12 lamps with a magnetic ballast is the way to go. i still have fixtures from the 50s that still work like a charm. the electronic ones fail to last 5 years most of the time.
Thanks for saving me several valuable weekend hours! I am doing much the same thing with my shop and have had the same questions. It is bizarre to see the 'metrics' used. Try buying a humidifier....just plain silly. Thanks again.
I just fitted out a new shop - LEDs were many times more expensive than the fluro and really not that much less energy. People quote "10000hrs" or whatever for the leds, but in my experience, MTBF has been far lower in the real world, so fluorescent it was. The electronic balasts are really cheap these days, even the cheap fixtures come with them.
just put all LED lights in my shop....they are the same shape as the old lights and arranged in the same tube shape and now i never have to change another one of those bulbs again, super happy
In South Africa, yes. Did a shop referb about 6 months ago that involved about 30 fixtures, so I ran the numbers - 5 foot T8 won. And I'd have fitted magnetic ballasts if I could find them - 40 year life (just replace a R2 (USD 0.20) starter every 20 years), vs 10 years for electronic.
panaxion have to disagree. Have been running LEDs non-stop for several years now with not a single failure. Now, I’m 2018, they draw WAY less power, have comparable color quality and often last beyond their quoted specs. In fact, whenever they *do* fail it’s almost always the power supply which can easily be fixed if it’s an indoor light. Outdoor supplies will often be filled with potting compound like fluorescent ballasts. But the power supplies for them are now almost as cheap (if not cheaper in many cases) than fluorescent ballasts.
I'll throw my lot in with others requesting that you revisit this topic. Also, I'd be interested to see your take on the electromagnetic energy that comes off of the florescent tube lights.
seeing as how this video is old I wonder how you feel about led lights now. I just purchased two plug and play led lights that look like the fluorescent light pack for $45. They are much brighter then what was there before, and accorind to the box the whole unit burns 30 watts.
BY the way, I hear that T-8 is ALSO going to be phased out. But I can't find that "for sure" in print. My wiring info was for a four bulb fixture, by the way. I do SMD work, mostly under a 10X microscope, but prefer a LOT of light in the shop anyway, because those little (2mm) SMD components are getting harder to see (and easier to lose) under the guise of my fifty-two year old eyes. Vacuum tubes were so much easier to NOT lose! :-) Times change.Will I kick the bucket before LEDS arrive?
Good to know, Thanks! I'm afraid that I've seen TOO MANY "format" changes in my life, but the newer ones (like changing from NTSC to Digital TV, or the T-12 to T-8) no longer are "backward" compatible, such as when we went from B&W TV to Colour TV... I guess time marches on, and I really don't miss those Quadraphonic 8-Tracks much, but I really DID like those Glowing Vacuum Tubes... The LED lights will, I am sure, be GREAT once they solve the heat dissipation problem, as I am sure they will.
Where with florescent bulbs need to buy a ballast that waste electricity and some times needs replacing, LED tubs can be feed 120v strait from the mains. The rating on the LED bulb is what you get, no need to add a power supply correction factor, it is already factored. I realize that I am writing 2 years after you posted this, but even then LED's were nearly twice as efficient as fluorescent. Today, If a shop is running 3 shifts, LED tubs will have a short period to where your $ ahead.
I am getting ready to light up my new shop. We retrofit about 500 T12/magnetic fixtures to T8/electronic fixtures about five years ago where I worked. The change was great, power use went down, light quantity and quality went up. We didn't even consider LEDs at the time because the cost was way high. We couldn't consider changing the fixtures because they are vandal proof rated, this is in a detention facility, and mostly in the cells. The one thing that almost no one talks about with lighting is aging. Fluorescents age down to somewhere around 60-70% of light output and also the Kelvin color temperature by the time of their actual fail. So, if the average life of a T8 bulb is say three years, the amount and quality of the light slowly diminishes to where it is less than required and you 'live with it' because it still works. LEDs on the other hand, have at that time only about a 5% degradation in light quantity and hardly any color shift. NOW in 2017 the prices are coming down as the competition ramps up. It is very important to get QUALITY equipment. Shopping for lights should NOT involve the MalWart school of thought. LED lights are only as good as their power supplys. If you find a good DIMMABLE LED fixture or bulb, you will normally get a better power supply. It will cost more, but in the end, cost less. Overkill the quantity of light and dim the fixtures down to the light amount that you need and they will last longer with a 'bright boost' to see the dust in the corners. I had incandescent lights in my old garage with dimmers, didn't change a bulb in 12 years. MY new shop? I bought 5 400w metal halide high-bay lights for $15 each at auction, will re-bulb them. They will supply general BRIGHT lighting for cleaning, etc. I have a number of old 4' T12/magnetic strip lights with extended reflectors that I will rebuild with T8/electronic innards in two strips the length of the shop, but only about 12' from the floor. I will relamp some of these fixtures with LED strips for specific job lighting at benches and some of the power tools. Also some screw in LED bulbs will undoubtedly be used in places. I already use some T5HO fixtures for grow lights and other specific stuff where color temperature is important and very bright lighting is required but metal halide / sodium is overkill. To maintain color temperature bulbs need to be changed at about 1000 hours or so. A lot of lighting is how picky you are and knowing how to feed your fickleness, LOL! T12s worked fine when they were new, so do T8s, so do LEDs. Think about it.
If you want a higher CRI with a similar if not greater efficacy you could always try electronically ballasted ceramic metal halide lamps. I've been using a 70w one as a desk light and it's a compact, high output light source.
Just upgraded the rear of my shop from T12 to T8 LED. no contest, the LED is amasing, front of my shop is all T8 electric balast fixtures and the LED's seem to have the edge in light output overall and use half to a third the power. however all the t8 fittings start fast and work well so for now they stay, but soon as one faulters they will all be swapped out for LED. New LED lamps work with no balast atall, you bypass the balast (or use the fake stater that comes with them if your not confident rewiring and have mag balast) and they just work. If your fitting is electric ballast you either bypass the balast, or get one of the more specialist tubes that work in an electric balast fitting (philips do a good one) cost was about £15 per tube (in the UK) almost worth it for the good cold light output and fast start alone. Keen to see how they last over the years, but the office lighting is LED and been up 4 years and still perfect I even bought some spare fittings expecting failures.
Very informative and well done. I'm not quite there with regards to needing this level of efficiency. I was hoping to find a comparison of the light brightness of the T8 vs the T4. My main interest is in reliability in cold weather (my shop is unheated) and longevity of the bulbs. Other than that I'm pretty much in the stone age with regard to my lighting and expect to remain there.
Just a bit of advice. In my experience of the T8 electronic ballasts ive installed, they severely hinder AM/FM radio reception. I'm not sure why but when I turn the circuit off the radio is fine, when I energize the radio goes out.
e ballasts produce a radio interference somewhere in the AM range. i hate them. i have also never heard of electronic as running more consistantly than magnetic. magnetic also makes lamps live longer cos its more stable
Check to see whether you're running Residential or Commercial rated ballasts. Interestingly enough, the commercial ballasts are less regulated and produce more RFI. A few years ago the ARRL actually called out Home Depot for recommending commercial ballasts to residential customers because of it.
Wow, awesome overview! LEDs keep getting better. Isn't the real value actually installation cost + operating cost over the life of the light source? I think LEDs might be closer in value that you seem to suggest but there are other considerations... LED life is highly dependent on LED quality. LED light output can also change over time. How much have LEDs improved over a year compared to T8's in terms of lifetime cost and light output? Just food for thought. No need to reply.
lm/W should be a good metric, but it ignores where the light is distributed (or even if it lost before leaving the fixture). LEDs typically aim their light out of the fixture more effectively than other lamps, so a setup with 1500 lm of LED light will be brighter than 1500 lm of fluorescent light.
Great video, very informative but I do have on question. Did you have to remove or replace the starter on the new t8 light fixture when replacing the ballast?
I've been wrong before, but I don't think things like 3D and 4k HDTVs are going to catch on. 1080p already looks awesome and any additional improvements will be marginal and truth be told, a solution looking for a problem. The glowing vac. tube amplifiers are great. I think the sound produced is richer, plus I like the glowing visual effect. I don't see how LED heat dissipation problems can be completely solved. Small things get hot when there's lots of energy in a small space.
Thank you! So I just need to make sure the ballast is for the correct voltage--120 or 277? I'm assuming I can't use a 120V ballast for a 277 V building? Of course I don't know what our building's voltage is however. Is there an easy way to find out (with a multimeter or something)?
The way you quoted the efficiency numbers, it sounded like performance is pretty universal within a particular bulb type. Is it just the bulb diameter that controls that, or is there some other design element in the standards that really gives you the efficiency, and the diameter is just a convenient way to differentiate?
our shopping centers in Lithuania use t5 and our school are converted in t8, I never seen any store or any other building that uses t12, except for some school, they uses t12
I cant tell you how many calls I've been on because someone put T8 lamps in a fixture with T12 ballasts. Same goes for a high pressure sodium ballast and someone puts in a metal halide lamp.
Ben, I live in central Minnesota and I want to intall fluorescent fixtures in my shop. I have two questions for you: What's "better" to install, one eight-foot fixture or two four foot fixtures? and I want a ballast that will start the bulbs when my shop is really cold. I've heard that there's "high output" ballasts. I think someone else called them "All Weather" ballasts. I've heard that they're very expensive (around $35 I believe). Is the "high output" ballast the same thing as the electronic ballasts you're using? I'm guessing not because you said you only paid $15 for them. Excellent video by the way, just perfect all the way around!
The new led tubes I heard to be much better. You don't need a ballast or anything. I haven't tried it out yet, but I will eventually. I am running nasty t12's and they suck.
The Dollar/Lumen calculated directly for a Fluorescent is not at a good measure. Almost 50-65% of the lumens created are lost in the fixture. Also, LEDs have not only fallen in price by now, they also produce alot more in terms of Lumen output. We have tubes now that produce 130 Lm/W system efficiency. Also, while Fluorescents might still be cheaper, the LEDs can by far outlive their useful life. So replacement costs are not considered in the lumen/dollar calculation.
T-5 lighting is intended for specific users. T-5 lights smack down T-8 & T-12 bulbs when it comes to growing with them and not lighting your office or shop. LEDs produce the best output in the PAR range and not lumens, again a specific feature of one light that cannot be compared to the other. Apples and oranges. I burn 22K watts hourly with T-5, 900w LED panels, & 1,000w HPS. The light output from a 4' T-5 exceeds a T-12, cost is secondary. When growing, I make the cost up at harvest 10X over!
Can one use a 4 bulb electronic ballast in a 2 bulb fixture and just not use the other two connections? I have a mix of existing two and four bulb units and can get quantity discount of I purchase a lot of one kind.
Thanks for the vid... when I started researching T5 vs T8 my head started hurting with all the different variables when comparing... I was about to purchase T5s until I wathced your video. Now I am confident in my purchase and will be purchasing basic fixture with your electronic ballast hack... would you do anything different since it is 5 years on? thanks
thank you youve answered my question supplyers wont tell me they use alot more mains current than flourecent tubes every body is quoting the secondry side after step down wattage wich has nothing to do with supply wattage used thanks for vid
Great Video Ben. Question , I've seen other videos were some people changed the ballast other videos just got rid of it all together. I wanted to know whats the difference and if their are any potential safety hazards or other things that make keeping or losing the ballast the way to go?
+fieldN Target All fluorescent tubes must be used with a ballast. T5, T8, and T12 tubes all are installed in fixtures that have an electronic or magnetic ballast. Compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs) have an electronic ballast in the base of the bulb. If you try to run a fluorescent tube without a ballast, it will draw a huge amount of current, and burn out immediately.
One problem with electronic ballast compared to magnetic ballast is it's reliability. Electronic ballast fails much quicker than magnetic ballast, some last only 3-5 years, sometimes tubes outlive the ballast.
I bought some shop lights from Home Depot for $22, can I wire them to a standard power cord? The power cord just has two wires, but no ground. The strip lights I bought from HD have 3 wires. Do we have to ground them? Also, how can you tell if the strip lights have an electronic ballast at the store? Does it say on the box?
T5 or LED is the way to go! Philips has a LED Instant FIT, check it out. They are also coming out with a 200Lm/W TL which smokes everything out in 2015
They are no where close to the regular T8. They are getting better, but still have a huge gap to close. Maybe in 5 or 6 years they will be a viable choice. I am looking forward to that.
craigsbully Huh? LED bulbs are more efficient and longer-lasting in both the A19 and T8 form factors. There's less LED options in T8 form factor compared to A19, but in general LEDs have higher LPW and CRI than florescent versions, and they last longer, are harder to break, flicker less if at all, and are often dimmable in the A19 format. To compare somewhat fairly, I'll use the Philips 32w 4ft t8 as a baseline. It has 2800 lumens which makes 87.5 LPW (lumens per watt). It has a CRI of 78/100 (color rendering index - an incandescent would score 100). There are multiple options from Philips to replace a florescent T8 bulb, so I picked two to mention. One has 1600 lumens, consumes 12 watts, and has a CRI of 82. (I consider 80 the minimum acceptable, but you can't get much higher in daylight colors, since CRI is based on an incandescent bulb.) That's a LPW of 133- pretty good! (133 is 152% of the florescent). Users don't complain about the lower brightness, but if you want something likely indistinguishable from the florescent baseline, there's another Philips LED with 2500 lumens, drawing 22.5 watts, with an even better CRI of 85. The LPW is a mere 111- only 127% of the florescent. :) Anyway, with their longer life and better light quality, I'd pay a little more to not have to replace bulbs as option, and to draw less power while they are burning.
That's all well and good. However I was also looking into the manufacturing cost and energy it takes to manufacturer LED light bars as replacements to fluorescents. The energy cost per lumen as compared to fluorescents is crazy out of Proportion. I wouldn't be so incredibly destructive to the environment just to have LED light source. That's the point I'm trying to make.
Who said anything about mercury? I'm not going to do your research. It's more powerful if you do the research and we the same conclusion. As for the lifespan. Indeed LED had a longer lifespan, they (LED) however uses more energy/lumen being manufactured and use more energy over there lifespan. It's cheaper and better for the environment to use fluorescents. Like I said in another post there are places to recycle them. Just like those ridicules CF bulbs.
My clothes closet has a 2 f36t5 tubes, and the ballast was really cheap chinese crap, so I decided to convert the ballast into the better one, but I couldn't find any, so instead I am using philips instant start ballast for 2 f32 t8 tubes and the f36t5 tubes are working really well, and they are even brighter that they were on the original ballast. (sorry if I make any mistakes, because I live in Lithuania and I don't speak English very well)
So here we are in 2018... the cost of LEDs has come way down, the demand for efficiency has gone up. I use them all over my house, but there are a few places where fluorescent bulbs still hold the edge.. The ones in this video were a mediocre ~86 CRI, but some of the best (aside from metal halide photography bulbs perhaps) non-incandescent lighting comes from 900-series phosphor tubes. They're pricey for fluorescents and not as efficient, but the Philips 209056 - F32T8/TL950 bulbs have an awesome 98-CRI. So if you want good lighting for photography, recording videos or painting, these are the ones you want. There are some LEDs that offer really high CRI too (I have some in my kitchen, made by Soraa), but they're waay too expensive IMO. And they're also less efficient. (for comparison, the Philips 32w T8 is almost $8/each... very high for a fluorescent. But the 95 CRI Soraa PAR30 flood with half the lumen output is $35)
Nice video, thanks. Very well spoken and provided a wealth of info. I have an old plug-in fixture and am looking to convert two single-bulb sockets to fluorescent. Will look at the T8 and T5 fixtures to see cost and bulb availability.
You might want to check out eBay for cheap, high-powered LEDs. For instance, you can get a 100 watt white LED, rated at about 9000 lumens, for ~$22. Obviously you need a power supply, mount, and cooling system, but these are not necessarily that expensive, especially if you're willing to build/salvage some parts (I've used old CPU heatsinks in my own projects). It's still hard to beat fluorescents in some areas, but LEDs beat them for many applications.
In your opinion, how has the state of LED progressed now that it's almost 4 years later? ...and now that four-foot T5 fixtures are increasingly common.
I haven't done a lot of research lately, but the prices that I have seen would indicate T8 is still much cheaper in operating and installation cost in $/lumen.
+VideoNOLA LED has made drastic improvements in efficiency and lifespan. Today's LED fixtures will last over 100K hours meaning less maintenance and upkeep. I helped replace 400W HID fixtures in a parking lot with 150W LED fixtures and got same Lumen output, not to mention the thousands in rebates offered by the electrical company to put towards the project. Don't forget to factor in the life of the product. LED last 5 times longer than T8.
Great video but I noticed you don't factor in the lifespan of LED lighting. Today's LED fixtures last 5 times longer than T8 bulbs. When you factor the lifespan and efficiency LED is the better overall cost (and requires less maintenance) in the long run.
I was all set to do this, then I realized my existing T12 fixtures are 8 foot models and they dont make T8 bulbs that size, soooo, Ill have to put in new fixtures. I probably put in something like 8 two bulb fixtures.
Lumens per dollar for installation cost is not a good metric. LED's may cost more upfront but they last much longer, where as you should add up the installation cost with florescent the many times you will replace florescent bulbs to match the longevity of a LED. Rework your numbers to Lumens per dollar per year for both florescent and LED.
Ow but one thing I don't know will the pins of a t5 fit in a t 8 socket prob not huh and I have seen at home depot multi purpose balast will run t8 t 10 and t 12 do they makes the for t5 also or is this a whole new ball club ??
I decided to change the lighting system from my kitchen with new T8 and new ballast. Big improvement,
thanks to this video.
This video should be revisited! Also add in any new lighting fixtures that you have in the shop
I did what you did ~2010. Now I'm getting ready to upgrade again because LEDs have come so far. They are now efficient and have a wider spectrum source than fluorescent - so they're more like sunlight or a good incandescent. Light loss from fixtures does figure in, but you can just look for ANSI-spec. It measures fixture lumens rather than bulb lumens. I'll probably install the 44watt CREE CR 4' LED troffers which give 4,000 lumens at 4,100Kelvin which is a near perfect "sunlight" white.
Thx 4 a wonderful video.After reading many posts about T12,T8, and T5, I finally understood the whole deal from your clear and simple explanation. You inspired me to install work lights in our garage and to switch an existing T12 48" 2 Lamp fixture in our laundry room to a T8. The part no. for a 2 lamp electronic ballast is QTP2X32T8.In Dec 2012, prices on T8 shop lamps have come down. For an American T8 Fluorescent PPS232RC PPS 2 Lamp Shop Light at Ron's Home & Hardware, the price is $31.00.
It seems almost every video you make is something I needed to know more about. Thanks for all of your selfless contributions. I came to your same conclusions about LED's vs. fluorescent bulbs from my research as well, plus the quality of the light is better too.
Thanks for this video. We needed brighter lighting in our retail store. Easier to swap out the ballasts than we thought it would be. There are videos that show how. Found the electronic ballasts at 1000bulbs at about $12.50 each. We used the 5000K T8 bulbs Litetronics L-337 - F32T8/850 and have been amazed at the difference. The front of our store is all glass and the new lighting makes it look like the daylight extends throughout the store. Saving on the electric bill is a bonus.
You rock Ben! Just a quick note about retrofitting older magnetic ballast to new electronic ballast. If anyone is planning on doing this please do your research first before changing anything. One thing to keep in mind is the type of existing magnetic ballast whether it is rapid start or instant start. Rapid start magnetic ballast are wired differently from instant start. If you don't change the wiring at the "tombstone" pin socket it may still run but it will shorten the life of the bulb considerably. Look up shunted socket vs non-shunted. You can either add a jumper or change out the socket. Also don't just throw in t8 bulbs without changing the ballast. The bulbs won't last very long.
Excellent video. Purchased the recommended ballast on eBay and exact bulbs at Lowes. Incredible lighting upgrade for only $29 total cost. It's like daylight in my garage!
Im looking for one that works good for terrarium. This tutorial was among the best. It really covered a lot of relevant territory with just the shop light function alone.
This video was posted in 2011. It is very much OUT OF DATE because of the substantial increase in the performance of LEDs and the reduction in price of LEDs. I would suggest that you get your information regarding LED choice and decisions from RECENT sources.
Definitely good advice.
but CRI is still worse for cheap LED strips, and I would also doubt significant price per lumen
LED lighting is pretty poor even in 2020 when compared to fluorescent strip lighting when used for working - in my opinion of course.
@@alanstarkie2001 unless you buy super expensive LEDs
Ben, great video. You really helped me out. I was ready to go buy whole new fixtures and this saved me a bunch of time and money. Thanks!
Bulb: (Electricity):
a. the glass housing, in which a partial vacuum has been established, that contains the filament of an incandescent electric lamp.
b. an incandescent or fluorescent electric lamp.
;) hope that helps. it suprised me as well :D
Nice clear picture, good lighting, & great sound on this video. Good job from a video photography point of view.
Very good information, thanks for posting. It helped me greatly in deciding which way to go for my shop.
Explained very well, I learned a lot. Thanks for making the video!!
grate video, i did not know T8 can fit in a T12 socket and now i do.
I replaced T-12 for T-8. The ballast wire colour change out was kinda goofy: Yellow is common (no problem) BUT the "other ends" of the T-12's, there you find TWO pairs per bulb. (I had two blues, two reds, two greys, and two browns.) On the new electronic ballasts, you have two reds and two blues, just four wires, not eight. Well, you just tie the pairs together, run a red to one tube, a red to another, a blue to one, and the last blue, and you are all set. I like a LOT of light, the T-8's rock!
Great video mate , I'm looking to install in my new shop and your explanation has been awesome, thanks a bunch
You are the smartest man on TH-cam but this video, (and your shop lights) which was fine in 2011, might need an update to the glowing diode light source for 2019.
T5 stays mostly in the undercabinet light market (due to size) as well as the professional warehouse/highbay units as they have high light output similar to HID and LED. I have a T5 fixture in my washroom and it works great.
thank you so much you helped me decide, thanks again for all your knowledge and research sir.
Good point!
Thanks Ben. Great video and explanation of the different options. I'm converting today!
I think one thing to consider about the t5's is the restrike (I think that's what it's called). Because of their smaller diameter, the light they put off is not blocked by the bulb, so more light is transmitted.
4:04 how far we've come, and I just got done putting tunable LED strips in my garage to supplement the old tubes. 10w for what literally looks like more light
I installed T5's in my garage. Although they work OK and give sufficient light, I would install T8's if I would do it again. The contacts on both ends of the T5 tubes are very close together and that means they are more susceptible to stress when you turn them. I have had to bend them a little bit on occasion because they got crooked when I turned them fast or loose.
I thought I'd seen every one of your videos...! At my last job (as a maint tech)...in a sheet metal working shop, they had about 120 fixtures, each had 4, 4ft T12's.....previous maint guy installed fixtures with 277 only electronic ballasts on 208 circuits....about 1/2 the lamps didn't work....I changed the power input to 277, changed all the lamps to T8's (4200 K color..daylight white).....pretty much fixed the problem, except I had to replace about 15 electronic ballasts...I used the same Sylvania multi-volt....they work on anything from 120 to 277.....
Great way to put it: "Long way to go in the way of price."
T12 lamps with a magnetic ballast is the way to go. i still have fixtures from the 50s that still work like a charm. the electronic ones fail to last 5 years most of the time.
Great video! I'm looking to upgrade and your report was just what I needed. Thanks.
Thanks for saving me several valuable weekend hours! I am doing much the same thing with my shop and have had the same questions. It is bizarre to see the 'metrics' used. Try buying a humidifier....just plain silly. Thanks again.
Ben, LED vary depending on manufactorer. LED's provide more lumens, more floor candles and use 65% less watts. LED's all the way.
So... still tube > LED in 2017?
Actually, I'd be happy to see an update on the subject too...
I just fitted out a new shop - LEDs were many times more expensive than the fluro and really not that much less energy. People quote "10000hrs" or whatever for the leds, but in my experience, MTBF has been far lower in the real world, so fluorescent it was. The electronic balasts are really cheap these days, even the cheap fixtures come with them.
just put all LED lights in my shop....they are the same shape as the old lights and arranged in the same tube shape and now i never have to change another one of those bulbs again, super happy
In South Africa, yes. Did a shop referb about 6 months ago that involved about 30 fixtures, so I ran the numbers - 5 foot T8 won. And I'd have fitted magnetic ballasts if I could find them - 40 year life (just replace a R2 (USD 0.20) starter every 20 years), vs 10 years for electronic.
panaxion have to disagree. Have been running LEDs non-stop for several years now with not a single failure. Now, I’m 2018, they draw WAY less power, have comparable color quality and often last beyond their quoted specs. In fact, whenever they *do* fail it’s almost always the power supply which can easily be fixed if it’s an indoor light. Outdoor supplies will often be filled with potting compound like fluorescent ballasts. But the power supplies for them are now almost as cheap (if not cheaper in many cases) than fluorescent ballasts.
I like flourescent in my shop, they seem to disperse more light if that makes sense. And also they don't blind me when I look over at them
I'll throw my lot in with others requesting that you revisit this topic. Also, I'd be interested to see your take on the electromagnetic energy that comes off of the florescent tube lights.
seeing as how this video is old I wonder how you feel about led lights now. I just purchased two plug and play led lights that look like the fluorescent light pack for $45. They are much brighter then what was there before, and accorind to the box the whole unit burns 30 watts.
BY the way, I hear that T-8 is ALSO going to be phased out. But I can't find that "for sure" in print. My wiring info was for a four bulb fixture, by the way. I do SMD work, mostly under a 10X microscope, but prefer a LOT of light in the shop anyway, because those little (2mm) SMD components are getting harder to see (and easier to lose) under the guise of my fifty-two year old eyes. Vacuum tubes were so much easier to NOT lose! :-) Times change.Will I kick the bucket before LEDS arrive?
Good to know, Thanks! I'm afraid that I've seen TOO MANY "format" changes in my life, but the newer ones (like changing from NTSC to Digital TV, or the T-12 to T-8) no longer are "backward" compatible, such as when we went from B&W TV to Colour TV... I guess time marches on, and I really don't miss those Quadraphonic 8-Tracks much, but I really DID like those Glowing Vacuum Tubes... The LED lights will, I am sure, be GREAT once they solve the heat dissipation problem, as I am sure they will.
Where with florescent bulbs need to buy a ballast that waste electricity and some times needs replacing, LED tubs can be feed 120v strait from the mains. The rating on the LED bulb is what you get, no need to add a power supply correction factor, it is already factored. I realize that I am writing 2 years after you posted this, but even then LED's were nearly twice as efficient as fluorescent. Today, If a shop is running 3 shifts, LED tubs will have a short period to where your $ ahead.
Ben, how about this subject now, in 2020? Maybe you can put your 5 cents:)
Thanks Ben,that's the information I was looking for.
I am getting ready to light up my new shop. We retrofit about 500 T12/magnetic fixtures to T8/electronic fixtures about five years ago where I worked. The change was great, power use went down, light quantity and quality went up. We didn't even consider LEDs at the time because the cost was way high. We couldn't consider changing the fixtures because they are vandal proof rated, this is in a detention facility, and mostly in the cells. The one thing that almost no one talks about with lighting is aging. Fluorescents age down to somewhere around 60-70% of light output and also the Kelvin color temperature by the time of their actual fail. So, if the average life of a T8 bulb is say three years, the amount and quality of the light slowly diminishes to where it is less than required and you 'live with it' because it still works. LEDs on the other hand, have at that time only about a 5% degradation in light quantity and hardly any color shift. NOW in 2017 the prices are coming down as the competition ramps up. It is very important to get QUALITY equipment. Shopping for lights should NOT involve the MalWart school of thought. LED lights are only as good as their power supplys. If you find a good DIMMABLE LED fixture or bulb, you will normally get a better power supply. It will cost more, but in the end, cost less. Overkill the quantity of light and dim the fixtures down to the light amount that you need and they will last longer with a 'bright boost' to see the dust in the corners. I had incandescent lights in my old garage with dimmers, didn't change a bulb in 12 years. MY new shop? I bought 5 400w metal halide high-bay lights for $15 each at auction, will re-bulb them. They will supply general BRIGHT lighting for cleaning, etc. I have a number of old 4' T12/magnetic strip lights with extended reflectors that I will rebuild with T8/electronic innards in two strips the length of the shop, but only about 12' from the floor. I will relamp some of these fixtures with LED strips for specific job lighting at benches and some of the power tools. Also some screw in LED bulbs will undoubtedly be used in places. I already use some T5HO fixtures for grow lights and other specific stuff where color temperature is important and very bright lighting is required but metal halide / sodium is overkill. To maintain color temperature bulbs need to be changed at about 1000 hours or so. A lot of lighting is how picky you are and knowing how to feed your fickleness, LOL! T12s worked fine when they were new, so do T8s, so do LEDs. Think about it.
If you want a higher CRI with a similar if not greater efficacy you could always try electronically ballasted ceramic metal halide lamps. I've been using a 70w one as a desk light and it's a compact, high output light source.
A very helpful vid and a good hack! Thanks for sharing your research and info.
Just upgraded the rear of my shop from T12 to T8 LED. no contest, the LED is amasing, front of my shop is all T8 electric balast fixtures and the LED's seem to have the edge in light output overall and use half to a third the power. however all the t8 fittings start fast and work well so for now they stay, but soon as one faulters they will all be swapped out for LED.
New LED lamps work with no balast atall, you bypass the balast (or use the fake stater that comes with them if your not confident rewiring and have mag balast) and they just work. If your fitting is electric ballast you either bypass the balast, or get one of the more specialist tubes that work in an electric balast fitting (philips do a good one) cost was about £15 per tube (in the UK) almost worth it for the good cold light output and fast start alone. Keen to see how they last over the years, but the office lighting is LED and been up 4 years and still perfect I even bought some spare fittings expecting failures.
Very informative and well done. I'm not quite there with regards to needing this level of efficiency. I was hoping to find a comparison of the light brightness of the T8 vs the T4. My main interest is in reliability in cold weather (my shop is unheated) and longevity of the bulbs. Other than that I'm pretty much in the stone age with regard to my lighting and expect to remain there.
Just a bit of advice. In my experience of the T8 electronic ballasts ive installed, they severely hinder AM/FM radio reception. I'm not sure why but when I turn the circuit off the radio is fine, when I energize the radio goes out.
e ballasts produce a radio interference somewhere in the AM range. i hate them. i have also never heard of electronic as running more consistantly than magnetic. magnetic also makes lamps live longer cos its more stable
Check to see whether you're running Residential or Commercial rated ballasts. Interestingly enough, the commercial ballasts are less regulated and produce more RFI. A few years ago the ARRL actually called out Home Depot for recommending commercial ballasts to residential customers because of it.
Wow, awesome overview! LEDs keep getting better. Isn't the real value actually installation cost + operating cost over the life of the light source? I think LEDs might be closer in value that you seem to suggest but there are other considerations... LED life is highly dependent on LED quality. LED light output can also change over time. How much have LEDs improved over a year compared to T8's in terms of lifetime cost and light output? Just food for thought. No need to reply.
lm/W should be a good metric, but it ignores where the light is distributed (or even if it lost before leaving the fixture). LEDs typically aim their light out of the fixture more effectively than other lamps, so a setup with 1500 lm of LED light will be brighter than 1500 lm of fluorescent light.
Great video, very informative but I do have on question. Did you have to remove or replace the starter on the new t8 light fixture when replacing the ballast?
I've been wrong before, but I don't think things like 3D and 4k HDTVs are going to catch on. 1080p already looks awesome and any additional improvements will be marginal and truth be told, a solution looking for a problem.
The glowing vac. tube amplifiers are great. I think the sound produced is richer, plus I like the glowing visual effect.
I don't see how LED heat dissipation problems can be completely solved. Small things get hot when there's lots of energy in a small space.
Thank you! So I just need to make sure the ballast is for the correct voltage--120 or 277? I'm assuming I can't use a 120V ballast for a 277 V building? Of course I don't know what our building's voltage is however. Is there an easy way to find out (with a multimeter or something)?
The way you quoted the efficiency numbers, it sounded like performance is pretty universal within a particular bulb type. Is it just the bulb diameter that controls that, or is there some other design element in the standards that really gives you the efficiency, and the diameter is just a convenient way to differentiate?
our shopping centers in Lithuania use t5 and our school are converted in t8, I never seen any store or any other building that uses t12, except for some school, they uses t12
Excuse the pun Ben - a most 'illuminating' discussion. I may well consider a retrofit on my cheapie mag ballast units sometime.
don't buy the bs. magnetic ftw
pro! nice job stopping down your camera to show the differences!
You can put a 4 lamp ballast in a 2 lamp fixture? Do you just cap off the extra wires?
Very informative, thanks for sharing.
Not gonna lie, I kinda find that hum from magnetic ballasts kinda comforting
I cant tell you how many calls I've been on because someone put T8 lamps in a fixture with T12 ballasts. Same goes for a high pressure sodium ballast and someone puts in a metal halide lamp.
Ben, I live in central Minnesota and I want to intall fluorescent fixtures in my shop. I have two questions for you: What's "better" to install, one eight-foot fixture or two four foot fixtures? and I want a ballast that will start the bulbs when my shop is really cold. I've heard that there's "high output" ballasts. I think someone else called them "All Weather" ballasts. I've heard that they're very expensive (around $35 I believe). Is the "high output" ballast the same thing as the electronic ballasts you're using? I'm guessing not because you said you only paid $15 for them.
Excellent video by the way, just perfect all the way around!
The new led tubes I heard to be much better. You don't need a ballast or anything. I haven't tried it out yet, but I will eventually. I am running nasty t12's and they suck.
The Dollar/Lumen calculated directly for a Fluorescent is not at a good measure. Almost 50-65% of the lumens created are lost in the fixture. Also, LEDs have not only fallen in price by now, they also produce alot more in terms of Lumen output. We have tubes now that produce 130 Lm/W system efficiency. Also, while Fluorescents might still be cheaper, the LEDs can by far outlive their useful life. So replacement costs are not considered in the lumen/dollar calculation.
T-5 lighting is intended for specific users. T-5 lights smack down T-8 & T-12 bulbs when it comes to growing with them and not lighting your office or shop. LEDs produce the best output in the PAR range and not lumens, again a specific feature of one light that cannot be compared to the other. Apples and oranges. I burn 22K watts hourly with T-5, 900w LED panels, & 1,000w HPS. The light output from a 4' T-5 exceeds a T-12, cost is secondary. When growing, I make the cost up at harvest 10X over!
Can one use a 4 bulb electronic ballast in a 2 bulb fixture and just not use the other two connections? I have a mix of existing two and four bulb units and can get quantity discount of I purchase a lot of one kind.
I just purchased 4' replacement LED set. 4,500 Lumens for about $50 from Lowes. Works out to be 90 Lumens/$ in 2022.
Thanks for the vid... when I started researching T5 vs T8 my head started hurting with all the different variables when comparing... I was about to purchase T5s until I wathced your video. Now I am confident in my purchase and will be purchasing basic fixture with your electronic ballast hack... would you do anything different since it is 5 years on? thanks
Nice video, thanks!!
Any updates on this as we head into 2020? What are your current thoughts on this?
thank you youve answered my question supplyers wont tell me they use alot more mains current than flourecent tubes every body is quoting the secondry side after step down wattage wich has nothing to do with supply wattage used thanks for vid
what is the name and where to get the catalog
Great Video Ben. Question , I've seen other videos were some people changed the ballast other videos just got rid of it all together. I wanted to know whats the difference and if their are any potential safety hazards or other things that make keeping or losing the ballast the way to go?
+fieldN Target All fluorescent tubes must be used with a ballast. T5, T8, and T12 tubes all are installed in fixtures that have an electronic or magnetic ballast. Compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs) have an electronic ballast in the base of the bulb. If you try to run a fluorescent tube without a ballast, it will draw a huge amount of current, and burn out immediately.
Thank you for the quick response very informative.
60Hz lighting can be really annoying for video, especially if you're using a high-speed camera or if you're shooting a rapidly rotating subject.
Nice job, keep up the good work!
One problem with electronic ballast compared to magnetic ballast is it's reliability. Electronic ballast fails much quicker than magnetic ballast, some last only 3-5 years, sometimes tubes outlive the ballast.
I bought some shop lights from Home Depot for $22, can I wire them to a standard power cord? The power cord just has two wires, but no ground. The strip lights I bought from HD have 3 wires. Do we have to ground them?
Also, how can you tell if the strip lights have an electronic ballast at the store? Does it say on the box?
n33oh ppl
Why don't you try out a t8 wire wound magnetic ballest ?
T5 or LED is the way to go! Philips has a LED Instant FIT, check it out. They are also coming out with a 200Lm/W TL which smokes everything out in 2015
For the record if someone's just watching this video now, modern LEDs have improved and are worth checking out.
They are no where close to the regular T8. They are getting better, but still have a huge gap to close. Maybe in 5 or 6 years they will be a viable choice. I am looking forward to that.
craigsbully Huh? LED bulbs are more efficient and longer-lasting in both the A19 and T8 form factors. There's less LED options in T8 form factor compared to A19, but in general LEDs have higher LPW and CRI than florescent versions, and they last longer, are harder to break, flicker less if at all, and are often dimmable in the A19 format. To compare somewhat fairly, I'll use the Philips 32w 4ft t8 as a baseline. It has 2800 lumens which makes 87.5 LPW (lumens per watt). It has a CRI of 78/100 (color rendering index - an incandescent would score 100). There are multiple options from Philips to replace a florescent T8 bulb, so I picked two to mention. One has 1600 lumens, consumes 12 watts, and has a CRI of 82. (I consider 80 the minimum acceptable, but you can't get much higher in daylight colors, since CRI is based on an incandescent bulb.) That's a LPW of 133- pretty good! (133 is 152% of the florescent). Users don't complain about the lower brightness, but if you want something likely indistinguishable from the florescent baseline, there's another Philips LED with 2500 lumens, drawing 22.5 watts, with an even better CRI of 85. The LPW is a mere 111- only 127% of the florescent. :) Anyway, with their longer life and better light quality, I'd pay a little more to not have to replace bulbs as option, and to draw less power while they are burning.
That's all well and good. However I was also looking into the manufacturing cost and energy it takes to manufacturer LED light bars as replacements to fluorescents. The energy cost per lumen as compared to fluorescents is crazy out of Proportion. I wouldn't be so incredibly destructive to the environment just to have LED light source. That's the point I'm trying to make.
craigsbully
No mercury though. Link me where yo found that info, too. Is it adjusted for the lifespan of LEDs compared to florescents?
Who said anything about mercury? I'm not going to do your research. It's more powerful if you do the research and we the same conclusion. As for the lifespan. Indeed LED had a longer lifespan, they (LED) however uses more energy/lumen being manufactured and use more energy over there lifespan. It's cheaper and better for the environment to use fluorescents. Like I said in another post there are places to recycle them. Just like those ridicules CF bulbs.
The smaller tube doesn't block the light from coming out of the fixture as do the larger tubes.
Hmmm...I never thought of that.
My clothes closet has a 2 f36t5 tubes, and the ballast was really cheap chinese crap, so I decided to convert the ballast into the better one, but I couldn't find any, so instead I am using philips instant start ballast for 2 f32 t8 tubes and the f36t5 tubes are working really well, and they are even brighter that they were on the original ballast. (sorry if I make any mistakes, because I live in Lithuania and I don't speak English very well)
So here we are in 2018... the cost of LEDs has come way down, the demand for efficiency has gone up. I use them all over my house, but there are a few places where fluorescent bulbs still hold the edge.. The ones in this video were a mediocre ~86 CRI, but some of the best (aside from metal halide photography bulbs perhaps) non-incandescent lighting comes from 900-series phosphor tubes. They're pricey for fluorescents and not as efficient, but the Philips 209056 - F32T8/TL950 bulbs have an awesome 98-CRI. So if you want good lighting for photography, recording videos or painting, these are the ones you want. There are some LEDs that offer really high CRI too (I have some in my kitchen, made by Soraa), but they're waay too expensive IMO. And they're also less efficient. (for comparison, the Philips 32w T8 is almost $8/each... very high for a fluorescent. But the 95 CRI Soraa PAR30 flood with half the lumen output is $35)
Nice video, thanks. Very well spoken and provided a wealth of info. I have an old plug-in fixture and am looking to convert two single-bulb sockets to fluorescent. Will look at the T8 and T5 fixtures to see cost and bulb availability.
i don't know where the idea that magnetic ballasts flicker come from. i have a ton of them, none of them flicker.
I have a t8, 4 ft t10 and a t12, what the hell should I do?
You might want to check out eBay for cheap, high-powered LEDs. For instance, you can get a 100 watt white LED, rated at about 9000 lumens, for ~$22. Obviously you need a power supply, mount, and cooling system, but these are not necessarily that expensive, especially if you're willing to build/salvage some parts (I've used old CPU heatsinks in my own projects).
It's still hard to beat fluorescents in some areas, but LEDs beat them for many applications.
In your opinion, how has the state of LED progressed now that it's almost 4 years later? ...and now that four-foot T5 fixtures are increasingly common.
I haven't done a lot of research lately, but the prices that I have seen would indicate T8 is still much cheaper in operating and installation cost in $/lumen.
+VideoNOLA LED has made drastic improvements in efficiency and lifespan. Today's LED fixtures will last over 100K hours meaning less maintenance and upkeep. I helped replace 400W HID fixtures in a parking lot with 150W LED fixtures and got same Lumen output, not to mention the thousands in rebates offered by the electrical company to put towards the project. Don't forget to factor in the life of the product. LED last 5 times longer than T8.
what's cheaper, retrofit a T12 fixture to T8 or just buy a new T8?
Fascinating how things have reversed! Color rendering index is now important, so fluorescent peaks have made them unusable.
wait what kind of bulb???
FYI never leave a fluorescent lamp leaning against a wall or table. Always put it on a flat, balanced surface
Awesome video good detail!!!!
I'd want to know lumens per dollar per year, since lifespan is also relevant.
Great video but I noticed you don't factor in the lifespan of LED lighting. Today's LED fixtures last 5 times longer than T8 bulbs. When you factor the lifespan and efficiency LED is the better overall cost (and requires less maintenance) in the long run.
+Alan N The video is from 2011. Today's LEDs didn't exist back then.
Great Vid
I learned a lot!
Will t5 work in t8 light fixture
I was all set to do this, then I realized my existing T12 fixtures are 8 foot models and they dont make T8 bulbs that size, soooo, Ill have to put in new fixtures. I probably put in something like 8 two bulb fixtures.
Thumbs up and subscribe.. Thank you for spending your time on the vids.
Lumens per dollar for installation cost is not a good metric. LED's may cost more upfront but they last much longer, where as you should add up the installation cost with florescent the many times you will replace florescent bulbs to match the longevity of a LED. Rework your numbers to Lumens per dollar per year for both florescent and LED.
Ow but one thing I don't know will the pins of a t5 fit in a t 8 socket prob not huh and I have seen at home depot multi purpose balast will run t8 t 10 and t 12 do they makes the for t5 also or is this a whole new ball club ??