How Can EVIL In Art Be Used for GOOD?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 พ.ค. 2023
- Depictions of evil in art are far more alluring than depictions of good, which is why evil is much more prevalent in the world of art. Are there storytelling contexts in which evil can be utilized to serve good purposes?
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Hahaha "33% from critics, and 97% from humans" such an underrated jab at critics. We love you Andrew 😂
It's idiotic.
Yep. That's the best part.🙂
Critics aren’t humans. Great analogy 😂😂😂 👌 👌
The movie is terrible
@@Anthonycheesman33 the movie is great! 9/10.
"The descent to hell is easy and those who begin by worshiping power, soon worship evil."
C.S. Lewis
Yep. Pope John Paul II talked about this in his letter to artists. He discussed how it is legitimate for artists to depict evil so long as it points to redemption.
❤😊
I’m not a “twilight zone” expert, but I’ve seen a few of those stories, and to me it seems that they also use horror or fear to share a moral message. I really enjoy them.
Horror stories often carry moral messages under the surface. That's why sex and drugs will get you killed in a slasher film, overused as it is.
A lot of the original Twilight Zone can be summed up by "This is the story of the folly of man's own designs." So many of the stories deal, in one way or another, with those notions. Of arrogance, ego, vanity, paranoia, corruption, and the real cost isn't the spooky monsters or anything, it's the souls of the characters and their downfall.
Which is why Twilight Zone is one of the best TV series ever made. Maybe the best. It's always telling great stories. The original black and white version, I mean.
SEAN PATRICK FLANERY DESERVES AN OSCAR NOMINATION. But in the likely event that he won't, the producers of NEFARIOUS should still engage in a media campaign during awards season if only to get many more people to watch their film or simply remind the public that Hollywood rejects and hates them. Instead of "FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION", the ads would declare : "NEFARIOUS TERRIFIES HOLLYWOOD" and "OSCAR FEARS NEFARIOUS".
This reminds me of when I was a teenager, I subscribed to Ellery Queen’s Mystery Magazine. I ended my subscription when it got to the point that most of the stories in the magazine were not mysteries, but murder stories. You would see the murderer’s motives, watch him plan the murder and carry it out. Then the story just ended there. There was no mystery, only evil.
"The only mystery Ellery Queen couldn't solve was why a man was named Ellery!"
Were you heartbroken like me when you found out that Ellery wasn't real?
@@jessicawurm23 not really. Because it wasn’t just a pen name, it was also the main character in the books. I was more surprised to find out that it was two guys.
EXCELLENT point about small budget films! In the end, it's THE QUALITY OF THE WRITING that counts. And you write in the knowledge that the budget is what it is.
Having played Sweeney, the value is showing how revenge leads us down a road of self destruction- it’s all about intent- the cautionary tale.
"Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not that much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make for a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway."
- JRR Tolkien, the Hobbit.
I first read this when I was twelve and it's stayed with me ever since because of the truth of it.
Dean Koontz depicts evil VERY CLEARLY
and from the sympathetic vantage of INSIDE
the evildoer's head... good wins in the end but
its quite difficult and evil has the upper hand
until it loses... like the CS Lewis
quote about dragons
13:11 So, what I hear you saying is that evil, in art as in life, should illuminate the good in the same way that Anna Karenina, even in the first chapters, illustrates the goodness of marital fidelity by showing how nasty and selfish adultery is.
Imaginary evil makes for good storytelling. Real evil is stale. Imaginary good is stale. Real good is divine.
Imaginary good is more difficult to depict, but it need not be stale.
I don't care for books that have no characters I like and admire. Unrelenting evil is stale even in fiction.
Yeah if you do it wrong
I ended up reading this comment twice about the “real evil is stale” comment. That’s such a wonderful way to put it because it really is stale. It’s the exact same predictable formula on repeat throughout the history of humanity. The Devil really isn’t all that great an innovator.
@@evermoremystic17 "I'll show you the aesthetic of a true villain!" -some babysitter
you are describing what is known as the banality of evil.
I loved Nefarious so much I'm going to see it again. Probably one of my favorite movies of all time!
Klavan is one of the best philosopher/writer of our time.
I love your analysis. Please keep it up.
Nefarious was really well done, and the acting is top notch. It’s really more of a psychological thriller than a horror movie.
It’s real purpose is to show that what we’re truly up against is evil itself.
I wasn't the only one watching the psychiatrist thinking "Michael Knowles is acting again"!
😄
What an excellent video. Just the most thoughtful analysis of these important ideas. Everyday conflict mixed up with spiritual warfare mixed up with art. These are things that pass through my own mind frequently, as a Christian artist and writer, but I've never strung them out so neatly and logically. Thank you for this, Andrew.
WAIT...this was made by the filmmakers of God's Not Dead, and yet somehow it's GOOD? And it specifically AVOIDS all the creative sins of the God's Not Dead films?!😳
I saw it in theaters and it is not good.
Yes, it's much better then most of these Christian movies. The performance of the main actor is excellent.
The dialogue is outstanding worth watching.
Isn't good? I am glad that they are getting better
its a dumb film
The critics were probably rooting for the demon.
My favorite villains are the ones that are evil because they want to be. It makes their downfalls all the sweeter.
to hold the world hostage.. for ONE MILLION DOLLARS!
15 minutes well spent as always, ty Andrew
Klavan, you still impress me with your insight. It's important not because of your knowledge, but your contribution to actual self realization of true conversation. Let us consider the truth of the matter.
Summary was generated by Summatim, let us know if there are any inaccuracies! 🤖
0:15: Movie Review: Nefarious
10:50: Depictions of Evil in Storytelling
11:47: Sweeney Todd and Love
12:49: Sweeney Todd's desire for revenge
12:58: Love your enemies
13:08: Enjoyment of corruption
13:18: Horror of revenge
13:37: Retreat into the world of the spirit
14:18: Conservative art
The problem with many of Christians ✝️ including yourself is that you find goodness in weakness and 🐑 sheep or lamb 🐑 is definition of goodness for you.
The good man is a capable man who craves power and executes it in righteously 💪🏼 a warrior for the sake of righteousness like King David
But Christianity ✝️ historically tends to find its virtue in weakness and
That is a big factor that differentiates Judaism with Christianity
I thought he looked like Knowles too while watching the film! Glad it wasn't just me.
I really loved the film and think it has one of the most powerful pro-life scenes I've seen on the big screen.
My Mom took me to see it the day I came home from university (Ave Maria in Florida), and my first thought upon seeing James was that he reminded me of Michael Knowles.
I'm fine with Satanic elements being in a show so long as it's the good guys' punching bag.
That's missing the point entirely. That basically does away with 90% of morality tales, parables, and all cautionary tales.
The whole movie of Nefarious is the very world around us is corrupt and twisted. Even those claiming to be of the church don't actually believe. One of my favorite scenes is the scene with the priest who says in not so many words "I don't believe in demons, we've evolved past that notion" and the demon smiles to himself knowing all he has to do is play along for a minute and he can go back to doing what he was doing. It's a great moment. We deny the existence of evil because we think we're "Better than that" now.
Love, love, love Sweeny Todd. It is ultimately tragic, which as you said, really drives the deeper moral point home.
I very much enjoyed Nefarious. Sean Patrick Flannery did an absolutely stellar job. I thought there were a couple of moments that I was saying were kind of like political talking points, but I think you found the right word which is "preachy." My only criticism of those moments is that someone looking to have a critical eye of the messaging, might easily fixate on those moments. But hopefully, the average movie goer hoping to see a horror flick, will come out thinking differently about the reality of the interaction between the spiritual and physical realms.
Considering how you've discussed the character Renfield at length in the past, can you review the new action/comedy Renfield with Nic Cage?
I appreciate the quality of thought in your videos so much. Your analysis on power and the infatuation with evil characters explains a lot. Thank u
Seriously love this type of content from Klavan!! Thanks again!
i think what he's describing about the boring, plodding sensation of evil reminds me a ton of how Crime and Punishment feels. the tedium and dullness of a life full of a slow march towards evil. never noticed that before
When a Jewish woman, Eliza Davis, who bought Dickens’ Tavistock Square house, chastised him, “whose works plead so eloquently and so nobly for the oppressed of his country,” for “encourag[ing] a vile prejudice against the despised Hebrew,” Dickens denied having anti-Jewish feelings and then went on to create the highly sympathetic Jewish character Riah in Our Mutual Friend, to alter some of the language in reprints of Oliver Twist, and to reckon more honestly with the run-of-the-mill antisemitism of his day. (“Charles Dickens and the Jews” by Lawrence Bush - June 11, 2017).
👏👏👏Well done! You really parse ideas clearly.
I like it when evil wins at the end of a movie. Stories should not be so predictable. The Omen was a good example.
It is more frightening that way.
@@williamerickson520 Indeed!
That was a great commentary. Thanks.
I get what you're saying- and I've thought similar things about context and message of bad and vulgar things used for a story, but even within using it from the realm of love and that perspective- isn't there still a line to be drawn within that as well? For example: I've always said that the villian song in a musical doesn't have to be as bad as many of them are just because it's the bad guy, but then as I watched clips this past Easter from Transformation church with so many villian songs....there seemed to still be an element of glorifying that, even as they had a consequence in the end. I had never thought of the 2 realms thing though, that makes a lot of sense. As someone getting more into screenwriting I would read a book on that if you wrote it!
Drew you should review Bram Stokers Dracula.
The Coppola film? Tes, but along with the actual novel as they differ in some fundamental ways
After watching Tim Burton’s adaptation of “Sweeney Todd”, I loved it even though the themes of cannibalism are disturbing. It’s a fantastic cautionary tale of the cost of revenge!
The dialogue is outstanding.
I appreciate this video but I also feel that a lot of art glamorizes evil behavior and justifies it by showing that the villain fails at the end. There is so much screen time demonstrating how fun and attractive the evil behavior is. I loved Sweeney Todd as an adolescent but looking back it's extremely graphic with gore and murder and you're rooting for him to get his revenge.
Breaking Bad is one of my favorite shows of all time but the concept certainly glamorizes the lifestyle regardless of the ending.
How do you figure that Breaking Bad glamorizes that life style? You'd have to be an absolute loon to think that. How many people, that we're shown explcitly, getting murdered or gravely hurt, or locked up for life, or being forced to go on the run, as a result of Walter White's decisions? How many innocent people die along the way? Jane and her father are two early prime examples of the result of entagling in that world.
And the same for Sweeney Todd, as Klaven points out, in the end everything Todd does results in the destruction of himself. He's not a good person anymore. He's a horrible monster.
@@OpenMawProductions "At the end" of Sweeney Todd, yes, it shows that he fails at the end. Like with most media, it shows a jaded regular guy get wronged, who gets revenge on someone, or the world or himself by living as a degenerate and committing heinous acts. And yes, of course what happens throughout the show or movie is tragic and horrendous but often times, despite this, we, the audience, are still rooting for them almost until the very end.
I'm not saying I don't love and enjoy the media. I would literally say Breaking Bad is in my top 3 favorite shows of all time. I'm not even arguing that this is a story that shouldn't be told, I'm glad it was.
But there are a lot of people out there where that lifestyle looks attractive to them, whether it's because they're unintelligent or in already poor living conditions. I personally know several people that got developed drug habits (not because of the show, obv) but would often reference the show.
It's honestly not the best example because it does show the negative aspects more often than not, there are far better examples of shows that are literally just degeneracy disguised as a drama (Shameless, Sex in the city, I guess almost any modern show)
The general point that I'm making is that this trend in media to portray realistic degeneracy is normalizing it by teaching us about something that we otherwise wouldn't have even cared about.
The media isn't evil inherently, it's just some writers cooking up interesting ideas for entertainment. But humans are capable of evil, and our brains are often weak, malleable and looking for any justification to make poor judgements with the right encouragement.
Klavan - I appreciate you so much
Klavan is the man.
Re: submission in marriage: You have to remember that it's more a _dance,_ than a _drill._ If you see someone getting frustrated, it's generally because one partner or the other _refuses to learn the steps._
Gyah, nowhere to watch this near me, can't wait for it to get to streaming, looks awesome.
AUSTIN BURKE TRIGGERED BY NEFARIOUS. Just mention Sean Patrick Flanery as a potential Best Actor contender in his Oscar predictions video and he gets so angry.
loved the insight
Klavan seems like such a great guy! Would love talking with him with some good coffee
I find that very interesting, because Andrew Klavan wrote the script for the American adaptation of the J horror movie one missed call.
I loved the movie. And Sean Patrick Flannery would win awards for his acting in it if it was a secular film.
A demon in possession of a man would desire his destruction, it wouldn't want to extend a life. So, I'm already over it. Theology is deep and beautiful enough to provide entertaining content, without distorting truth.
The demon in Nefarious did desire his destruction. He wanted the psychiatrist to find him sane so he could be executed…
Bit late, but the demon in this movie does want to be put to death so he can move on to another soul. That is part of the confusion of the atheist psychiatrist. He cannot understand that
Milton answered this centuries ago in the Areopagitica. It's only through the knowledge of evil that we can know good.
🤔
Nefarious was great. Not too preachy.
"Evil makes for good storytelling." It's almost as if, to enjoy a good dragon-slaying, there first _has to be a dragon._
Go figure!
Evil ... Have seen it several times in my life films have a hard time actually depicting it , I think because it is felt as much as seen and sometimes not seen till it's to late. But one of the few times I have truly felt it in a place was the old concentration camp Dachau.. I started to go thru it and got about 1/3 of the way and physically got sick . You could feel it . Heard the same and a couple of the others to .
Now I've been thru combat and killed had no problem with that. But there are some places that are bad places and I personally believe it has to do what has happened there and made those bad/evil places
Please do a video on Flannery O'Connor!
Planning on watching it seems cool.
5:23
Klavan is such a philosopher.
Why do I often confuse Klavan with James White? :)
Lol! Because Klavan looks just like him!
Simon Weil a beautiful soul
like Sir Klaven a Jewish convert to Christianity
the great T S Eliot read her work and loved it.
Nefarious was great!
just finished it, really make you think
Looks good!
See Revanche 2008 Austrian film. Not for the faint of heart but riveting. (Revanche = revenge)
Given the premise of the story, the light bulb bursts and the connecting thought is it must be a coincidence. The imagery is a whole story in itself.
Archetypical stories are fascinating and often contain evil as an intrinsic part. Without it the story becomes meaningless like a light bulb in a person's head that has nothing happening to it.
"Evil makes for good storytelling." I like your perspectives! The problem with "Christian" movies however isn't that they are "sugary sweet," but that they portray the wrong theme. The Gospel isn't about good vs evil-that is what the law is about. The Gospel is about law vs grace.
"The gospel is about law vs. grace" ? Sin is transgression of the law and the wages of sin is (eternal) death. Jesus died the second death to pay the wages. When we accept Him as our Savior, His death is credited to us, therefore the law is satisfied and we are free from the penalty. That is the gospel.
@@frontdesk3720 Indeed! The law is fulfilled. (Paul's exhaustive argument.)
Not to say one is good and the other evil, there's a sharp difference between living by grace through faith and living according to rules and regulations (Col. 2).
@@frontdesk3720Amen. Jesus paid it all - 100% - on the cross.
Philip Larkin said the reason for the darkness of his poems was that it is very hard to write white on white…..
I don't mind of an Athiest makes a strong case as religious people can make an equally strong case. but in both scenarios neither will EVER prove their point. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a being so omnipotent and superior it exists beyond your comprehension.
Nonetheless, I (and many men wiser than myself) have found there is substantial evidence for a being we call "God." I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Looks Great.... And Yeah, He Looks Like Knowles.
Diablo creators, Blizzard has an art book out for their new game Diablo IV. Extremely cool
Dickens ran into this dilemma. He was confronted that his widely remembered Fagin is anti semiotic. In response he created a good Jew, Riah in “Our Mutual Friend” No one remembers that character.
What is the act of courageous virtue in the background of Glengarry Glen Ross?
The Glenn Beck conclusion is soo cringe😂
I like Glenn, but not in movies…
I have little interest in seeing this movie, especially considering the people who made this made God's Not Dead, but you make interesting points about power and love. The phrase "rest in power" instead of "rest in peace" always rubbed me the wrong way because it implies that there is no peace without power. That is a recipe for corruption and evil, and it reminds me of the saying (which I will probably butcher) that the person who cannot control or find peace within himself will exercise domination and control over those outside of himself to find it. I don't begrudge the innocent intent of those who use phrases like "rest in power," but the root of that idea is toxic and harmful to the soul. A good marriage is a perfect example to how things ought to be. Feminists hate the idea of submission in a relationship because they only think in terms of power and the belief that hierarchical reality is purely about power and is inherently oppressive (as all radical leftists believe). When hierarchy becomes all about power, that is when it becomes abusive, corrupt, and tyrannical, but that's not the way it is supposed to be. That is how sin and evil corrupt reality and human relationships as they were intended. Hierarchy (and reality itself, which is inherently hierarchical) is properly ordered by love and service to others. In a healthy relationship, one does not submit to power. You are supposed to submit to love which is displayed through affection and self-giving service and received with gratitude and honor. I think both men and women are supposed to both give and receive love and honor, albeit expressed in their own ways, but this reality is why Paul tells wives to honor their husbands and tells husbands to love their wives. Love and honor are supposed to go hand in hand where you are meant to freely give and receive both, a kind of exaltation through submission to goodness.
one of the most challenging things to do is to integrate the desires of the body and the desires of the spirit.. much easier to be a prude (domination by the spirit) or an atheist (domination by the material.) Ultimately, the prude is being dominated by fear of the matter he's made of, and therefore is being dominated by the material as much as the atheist.
the best writers make their villains exceptional and their heroes unexceptional save for their example of goodness. if a writer has no faith in their OWN ability to reckon with evil, they they make their heroes overpowered and their villains one dimensional.
embodiments of evil/self serving force in film show a condensed version of the world we must contend with, and so we find them interesting. we don't find unsolved problems interesting.
This movie isn't yet on streaming platforms, right?
amazon
I'm glad I'm not the only one that couldn't stop seeing Michael Knowles lol.
Best horror movie I have watched in a very long time.
Don't you think they would have examined the defendant before he even went to trial to determine if he was insane? He couldn't even stand trial if he was adjudicated insane. So this fiction of examining him before the death sentence is a pure fiction for fiction purposes. AND you miss that?
Questioning if "evil in art" can "be used for good" is a part of why Christian movies and shows aren't as good as they could be, and I hope more of Andrew Klavan's audience take his advice.
Story is about a character trying to do something. If we add an adjective to that, then we can say that a good story involves obstacles, conflict, dramatic action, and dilemma. Andrew Klavan is right to point out how much of Christian media isn’t very good, but it’s not because of the parts that are too “preachy.”
Christian media’s problem is that it lacks any real stakes for the religious elements. Instead of presenting a challenge and depicting a character facing those challenges and overcoming it, we get over protected garbage like the kind that Marge Simpson forced the makers of “Itchy and Scratchy” do, only worse.
Because the Bible and Chrsitian faith are not allowed to be depicted in an honest, critical, or vulnerable way, therefore, the strawman “Atheist” in “God’s Not Dead” had to be someone who was just mad at God because of course he couldn’t -- in the sensibilities of the authors -- have made those conclusions had he just read and studied the Bible.
I suspect it has to do with Christian ignorance of the Bible and the much more elusive and mysterious but heretical textual criticism, and the fact that most believers are actually atheists when it comes to the God of the Bible based on their literacy. However, by protecting the religious elements of their stories, “Christian artists” become propagandists for Dormammu.
Just because an individual chooses faith over sight, darkness over light, and wants to pretend that there are no errors in the Bible or with faith in God, it doesn’t make it so. Even in a broader context there are greater concerns about faith in a Higher Power and religion than just the tragedy of existence or existence of evil in the hearts of other people.
When artists don’t know the boundaries and definitions of the possible errors of their own religion, they can’t produce anything remotely resembling compelling conflict involving these elements. They end up just protecting anything religious instead of allowing actual dilemma to bleed its way into their narrative.
It’s what made Superman boring (except for “Man of Steel” in this way in my opinion), it’s what makes Captain Marvel boring and Rey Palpetine (according to critics like the Critical Drinker). They were never in any real danger, and they don’t have anything to learn. As a matter of fact, everyone needs to learn from them the way that we’re just supposed to learn from God, the Bible, faith, religious figures, or religious rituals like prayer in Christian media.
Artists have to be comfotable being vulnerable, and without actual stakes, we just end up watching Itchy pass Scratchy some lemonade.
The Exorcist is a good example imo, which is a horror movie but the foundation is based on goodness. Spoiler for those who haven't watched it yet
In the end father karrus sacrifices himself to save Regan. That, for me, beautifully depicts how to love your neighbor, atleast an aspect of it. Some might disagree as art is subjective but Atleast that's how I saw it. And it often tears me up.
No such thing as good and evil. We just are.
"There is no good or bad but thinking makes it so." - Shakespeare (I forget which play)
Love Sweeney Todd! Or do I hate it? Both. 😉
What an amazing video, so in depth and illuminating. Thank you Andrew!
Is the Sweeney Todd movie any good?
@Greg Elchert Agreed. The Burton, Depp and Carter combo is always a good watch. The film cuts out the choral parts, but I think they would be out of place on film.
"God's not dead" was a complete cheese factory and drove me kinda nuts (Christ follower here). i'm surprised it's the same director guy that made this!
Andrew there are stories of good vs evil that were written before the Bible was, you know that right?
What is your point?
Leave a comment for the algorithm
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Ephesians 6:12
What is left out of this powerful, but a bit confusing passage is the spiritual battle itself takes place in the physical world, in the flesh as it were. That's what makes it so compelling to us, the smirk of schadenfreude glee when a bully gets his or her comeuppance.
Glad you got over your bias long enough to watch it.
Nefarious. Best acting I’ve seen in a long, long time!
when i can tell your pushing a agenda in a movie it goes from interesting to boring real quick as soon as the explanation of atheist started i new something was up, more straw man arguments from the right, atheist don't reject the concept of a God/creator they reject the claims as they always come up short, if there's a list of explanations for the universe God/creator is on there but it's way low on this list and the top is always we don't know.
This was excellent and thought provoking. I still don't want to see the movie. The news is stressful enough
Don't you think we should be ruthless with evil?
Be careful fighting monsters lest you become a monster yourself. This is how good people turn evil.
@@williamerickson520 very profound, but sometimes it takes bad men to keep the other bad men from the door - Rust Cole in True Detective Season one, the best season, and one of the best television series ever, but noted. I am struggling with this same thought. But I think we need to get ruthless with these mofos, or else they might overpower us. Sometimes a little bad, a little dangerous, can be good, and do good. Just an opinion, up for debate. Ruthless is not necessarily bad. All the best to you.
@@williamerickson520 If nobody fights the monsters, they might prevail, and we can't have that. No sireee.
@@donvonfilms2937 Depends on what you mean by monsters.
@@williamerickson520 Evil people: The Hitlers, Stalins, Mengeles, oppressors, tyrants, bandits, thieves, from the person at the grocery store counter who tries to short change you, to the doctor who treats you unethically, right up to the government officials who try to limit your freedom. You can argue that they are not wholly evil, but then we have to fight the evil in them, the same evil that is latent in all of us. That is a very Protestant viewpoint, but that is because I am one, and have ample evidence from my own life that it is valid, and true. Some people are monstrous: the father who sexually abuses his daughters, the mother who neglects her children, the father who betrays his own son, doctors who sent Jews to the gas chambers, or abused them by performing medical experiments on them, or even doctors who mistreat their patients today, to the teachers who turn a blind eye to older school children abusing the younger ones in a hostel, one even going so far as to beat the young ones with a golf stick that he named Ernie, for example. All these are evil, whether evil through neglect of duty, or evil through active deeds. In my experience you have to be at least as strong, ruthless and cunning as them to stop them. And that is just on a small scale. Whole groups of people are being oppressed, targeted by unjust laws and harassed by racist government policies in all parts of the world. There are monsters aplenty. Heck, there might even be real ones if you believe some witches, wizards, and satanists who conjure up and work with these entities, let alone ol' Big Foot and Nessie herself.
Read berserk
I thought the movie kinda sucked.
I’m tempted to play devil’s advocate for critics to a certain extent (although most of them including those I have listened to previously have given in to current nonsense)
A little right wing preachy the whole movie is preachy lol.