I feel like JD in later years can't "produce" the same results as he used to because the heavy toll it took to do it before. His team was the weaskest from TaekBangLeeSsang era he had to grind insane hours to reach his level. I remember BackHo interview from Teamliquid : Throughout the interview, Backho praised one player until his mouth was dry. He is the Hwaseung Oz Ace Jaedong. Backho alleged that there can be no one who can keep up with Jaedong in mental toughness. “There was a period when I thought, ‘Why can’t I play as well as Jaedong?’ When our team had a long break Jaedong still practiced a lot because he had to prepare for individual leagues. Honestly, a lot of other progamers and I would take some rests while practicing in that situation. But Jaedong didn’t do that. He practiced just like when he was practicing for a Proleague game and didn’t rest one bit. That’s really hard to do.” One day, Backho was so curious he asked Jaedong, “How could you practice like that?” Expecting some grand, ambitious answer, Backho was so surprised when he heard Jaedong’s answer. “Jaedong said one phrase, ‘It’s something I have to do.’ I realized then that Jaedong was born a progamer (laughs). If I have one regret as a progamer it’s that I didn’t live my progamer life as Jaedong did. Truly he’s a great player.”
He said on his stream recently he feels he's been playing way too passive in games. Definitely have to agree there, his trademark style was relentless aggression but nowadays (esp in tournaments) we don't see that a lot anymore. Players obviously improved as well and he isn't where he used to be physically with the speed.
The thing I found odd about this game was the fact that Speed never made another SCV after the 10 minute mark, despite still getting an expansion later on. I wonder what the reasoning behind that was.
microing wraiths the way he did is really hard and takes a lot of attention, he didn't have speed left (no pun intended) to also make scvs and tell them to mine
Talking about decisiveness, in chess there is a concept called the in-between move. Top grandmasters train themselves to STOP, find and make an in-between move instead, (if possible), whenever they are about to make a decisive move.
I agree 100% about what you said about Jaedong. Basically his way of playing requires him to play a LOT/understand a certain meta REALLY well to be able to play at his best (which is basically the best out of everybody). If he keeps taking the game seriously and is motivated he can become insanely good again for sure.
Always cool to watch "non-standard" games where players just have to play intuitively and make decisions on the fly. It's kind of like Fischer random in chess.
that was a wild game. Thought zerg had it in the bag due to wraith not doing enough and the supplies + worker count being even, but then zerg let the vessel count hit critical mass without really preparing or doing much with the mid game advantage. The wraith sacrifice damage into bio vessel push did way more than I thought it should have given the state of supplies and workers. I'm a noob but I feel like sometimes the tempo loss of hive teching and getting defilers + defiler spells is underestimated. Seen a number of games where zerg gets advantage mid game but then loses to vessel bio timing push right as they spent all the resources and time into hive tech, but don't yet have enough defilers so they just get irradiated and then all that tech did nothing.
Artosis. My dog will be celebrating his 14th birthday on 04/09. His name is Dirk Nibbler and I'm hoping you can give him a b-day shout out on his big day.
Artosis, thank you so much to your extra clean pronunciation, as far as I remember you're from Utah? You clean language is created for learning English at school!
Jaedong definitely has this very distinct style that makes it hard to keep up long term. Soulkey focusing on macro for example has clearly paid huge dividends. People have the timings down so well today that jumping on a bunker with lings for example is more of a death sentence than it is decisive.
JD won because he made spores. you can't expect someone to micro at such high intensity when they're older, and having spores really frees up a lot of micro time something very consistent with JD games is that he's _always_ playing at his limit of mechanical abilities. you see him going for these crazy attacks that would only work if he executed them perfectly
What a slugfest. I love the Hydra Defiler style so much. The problem with JD's play in pro leagues is that his older style of super tactical play, which is best represented by Soma in recent years, requires extremely precise and fast micro (JD used to do stuff like control 2 full groups of Mutas simultaneously as a single big ball), as well as finding weaknesses in opponents play. That sort of play is physically very taxing on his wrists and is not something you can keep doing forever. On top of that, as the average level of play has increased across the board, the weaknesses he relied on exposing started to disappear from his opponents. People make much more solid plays now, it's far more difficult to just kill someone with overly aggressive play. In short, his style of play became kind of obsolete. In response he tried to transition into a more well rounded, solid macro Zerg style. He's still very good at it, but no longer the best player in the world like he used to be.
Man he was so close to losing the entire game. Really nice recovery! I wouldn't have gone for the extra base in the end but it made all the difference in the world. That's why he's Jaedong!
Didn't Jaedong also had tendentitis ? About when the SC Remastered came out ? He had to take off about a couple of years, and it's not been the same since, though he's still having some nice games. I think that because of that, he can't have the same micro or something. Funny that in the ASL, his lowest win rate is against zerg. Back in the day, he had a not-so-brief period when he absolutely dominated. I really hope JD manages to get back to 100% of his former self level. Some of his comebacks were absolutely bonkers.
Why don't pros repair Science Vessels? I get that SVs are good for their spellcasting, but repairing a Vessel is 123 gas, that's far better than building a new Vessel for 225 gas. I don't think it matters in this game as a higher Vessel count wouldn't have changed much. Hydras are too efficient vs them. But its just a thing I've noticed, if the game turned a different direction (ie: towards Ultralisks), the higher Vessel count would have been better insurance. EDIT: Or do Pros just assume they'd get Plagued again?
Such a waste of Terran SVs to not send them back to a repair crew or keep 2 medics for Restoration. How many more Irradiates does Terran have if he sends them back for repairs and regroups?
he lost about 10 workers + to wraith harassment and 1 spore immediately deterred wraith harass - idk but i think spores in those locations are just pretty darn good he also cut down on burrow which alot of z use vs wraiths and lost again alot more + mining time that wraith play was sick, he really milked them to the fullest
I think Flash came back and did really well because he plays Terran. Zerg and Protoss are just weaker races so Jadeong and Bisu didn't come back as well. Kappa.
This game shows how Wraith can be a very versatile unit that is great for harassment. I bet it was annoying for Jaedong to chase those pesky flyers all over the map.
This was desperate holdout scenario. No hope. Endless waves of Marine, absolutely demoralizing bombing flights of wraiths killing any overlord and drones enemy finds. Chance to come back this game must had been super close to zero...but not zero.
Jae my favorite zerg all-time. But yeah recently he's been losing a lot in pro scene tournies. Could be losing his touch or not building up on his current knowledge and strats?
A little bit of everything. He has admitted himself that he took quite a lot of time off dealing with injuries and didn't practice at all. Plus as he gets older and the injuries stack up, he's less able to muscle his way forward with micro and aggression, and he has never been as good at the brainy/strategy side of things as SoulKey for example.
He meant came back from SC2 back to BW. Where he won several ASL's, all of which you can find online. We are still waiting for his return back from military.
Three straight weeks of zero Terran wins. People say Terran is op but I don’t see it. Once Zerg gets dark swarm it’s very difficult to overcome it, in my opinion. Kind of unbalanced.
@@kb17_17 There is a site called cwal (as in the SC cheat code) that tracks them. Not sure how they figure out whose anonymous account is whom but it's presumably accurate.
It is all about vessel count. If you can keep vessels you are still fine, but if you start losing them you can't replace them as quickly as Z can just consume a few lings with a single defiler and break a base.
other 99% games - either terran kills zerg within approx. 10 minutes from start, otherwise zerg will develop this shitty dark swarm and plague and there are no chances for terran player at all
I'm fairly new to the broodwar competitive scene, but I have to say that so far zerg vs terran is the least interesting matchup to watch. I actually like the mirror matchups even more than zerg vs terran.
ZvT is the matchup that has produced the most classic games in Brood War. Of course, it helps that the best player ever played terran and the second best player ever played Zerg.
Part of it is consume is so broken. Trading a swarm/plauge for a few zerglings is always worth it. Make it so consume only works on gas cost units and scales with unit hp, then the math changes quite a bit.
I feel like JD in later years can't "produce" the same results as he used to because the heavy toll it took to do it before. His team was the weaskest from TaekBangLeeSsang era he had to grind insane hours to reach his level. I remember BackHo interview from Teamliquid :
Throughout the interview, Backho praised one player until his mouth was dry. He is the Hwaseung Oz Ace Jaedong. Backho alleged that there can be no one who can keep up with Jaedong in mental toughness.
“There was a period when I thought, ‘Why can’t I play as well as Jaedong?’ When our team had a long break Jaedong still practiced a lot because he had to prepare for individual leagues. Honestly, a lot of other progamers and I would take some rests while practicing in that situation. But Jaedong didn’t do that. He practiced just like when he was practicing for a Proleague game and didn’t rest one bit. That’s really hard to do.”
One day, Backho was so curious he asked Jaedong, “How could you practice like that?” Expecting some grand, ambitious answer, Backho was so surprised when he heard Jaedong’s answer.
“Jaedong said one phrase, ‘It’s something I have to do.’ I realized then that Jaedong was born a progamer (laughs). If I have one regret as a progamer it’s that I didn’t live my progamer life as Jaedong did. Truly he’s a great player.”
that's a great story. thanks for sharing!
He said on his stream recently he feels he's been playing way too passive in games. Definitely have to agree there, his trademark style was relentless aggression but nowadays (esp in tournaments) we don't see that a lot anymore.
Players obviously improved as well and he isn't where he used to be physically with the speed.
Too long don't re***t
8:12 sacraficing 2 lurkers as distraction to stop mining at the expansion with the rest of them was neat.
I really thought this was gonna be over and then it totally wasn't. TWICE!
The thing I found odd about this game was the fact that Speed never made another SCV after the 10 minute mark, despite still getting an expansion later on. I wonder what the reasoning behind that was.
Speed had this game won, but fell apart with the macro. He should have been way ahead in workers but never really was.
microing wraiths the way he did is really hard and takes a lot of attention, he didn't have speed left (no pun intended) to also make scvs and tell them to mine
Pros don't always take ladder games seriously
@@AqoCyrale He could have after the Wraiths were all killed.
I've been watching Jaedong for decades. I appreciate you casting his matches keep up the good work my man!
Talking about decisiveness, in chess there is a concept called the in-between move. Top grandmasters train themselves to STOP, find and make an in-between move instead, (if possible), whenever they are about to make a decisive move.
Am I crazy or have we been seeing *a lot* of mixed units games lately? Wraiths, MarineMedic, bats, vessels, AND tanks? It's so awesome.
yeah I was gonna say it feels like we're in a new golden age of the game when it comes to mixed army comps across all races
I agree 100% about what you said about Jaedong. Basically his way of playing requires him to play a LOT/understand a certain meta REALLY well to be able to play at his best (which is basically the best out of everybody). If he keeps taking the game seriously and is motivated he can become insanely good again for sure.
Always cool to watch "non-standard" games where players just have to play intuitively and make decisions on the fly. It's kind of like Fischer random in chess.
Agreed - a very good game, different. I like the 2 port experiments. GG!
that was a wild game. Thought zerg had it in the bag due to wraith not doing enough and the supplies + worker count being even, but then zerg let the vessel count hit critical mass without really preparing or doing much with the mid game advantage. The wraith sacrifice damage into bio vessel push did way more than I thought it should have given the state of supplies and workers. I'm a noob but I feel like sometimes the tempo loss of hive teching and getting defilers + defiler spells is underestimated. Seen a number of games where zerg gets advantage mid game but then loses to vessel bio timing push right as they spent all the resources and time into hive tech, but don't yet have enough defilers so they just get irradiated and then all that tech did nothing.
That first plague is one of the best plagues i’ve seen in a while
Artosis. My dog will be celebrating his 14th birthday on 04/09. His name is Dirk Nibbler and I'm hoping you can give him a b-day shout out on his big day.
My ol' boy turns 14 on 05/14. His name is Phantom :) cheers 🍻
Awesome comeback. JD crawling his way back, never giving up.
The unit composition envisioned by the devs when they created Starcraft back in the 90s
It's beautiful to see!
Artosis, thank you so much to your extra clean pronunciation, as far as I remember you're from Utah? You clean language is created for learning English at school!
Woo! Just in time to watch with the morning coffee
Same
Jaedong definitely has this very distinct style that makes it hard to keep up long term. Soulkey focusing on macro for example has clearly paid huge dividends. People have the timings down so well today that jumping on a bunker with lings for example is more of a death sentence than it is decisive.
JD won because he made spores.
you can't expect someone to micro at such high intensity when they're older, and having spores really frees up a lot of micro time
something very consistent with JD games is that he's _always_ playing at his limit of mechanical abilities. you see him going for these crazy attacks that would only work if he executed them perfectly
What a slugfest. I love the Hydra Defiler style so much.
The problem with JD's play in pro leagues is that his older style of super tactical play, which is best represented by Soma in recent years, requires extremely precise and fast micro (JD used to do stuff like control 2 full groups of Mutas simultaneously as a single big ball), as well as finding weaknesses in opponents play. That sort of play is physically very taxing on his wrists and is not something you can keep doing forever. On top of that, as the average level of play has increased across the board, the weaknesses he relied on exposing started to disappear from his opponents. People make much more solid plays now, it's far more difficult to just kill someone with overly aggressive play.
In short, his style of play became kind of obsolete.
In response he tried to transition into a more well rounded, solid macro Zerg style. He's still very good at it, but no longer the best player in the world like he used to be.
Effort is another example of a decisive Zerg
Those wraiths did so much damage. But Speed couldn't capiltalize and fell just behind in the macro. GG
Great to see an unusual style game!
Really love to see hydra/defiler vs bio
Bisu is not JUST an "8-type guy" Artosis, he is a TEN to me !! 🤯🥵😩🗣
Man he was so close to losing the entire game. Really nice recovery! I wouldn't have gone for the extra base in the end but it made all the difference in the world. That's why he's Jaedong!
MORE JAEDONG
Awesome game, thx Artosis! Gg - JD
Didn't Jaedong also had tendentitis ? About when the SC Remastered came out ? He had to take off about a couple of years, and it's not been the same since, though he's still having some nice games. I think that because of that, he can't have the same micro or something.
Funny that in the ASL, his lowest win rate is against zerg. Back in the day, he had a not-so-brief period when he absolutely dominated.
I really hope JD manages to get back to 100% of his former self level. Some of his comebacks were absolutely bonkers.
Jaedong seems to always be in a state of injury or recovery. He's had wrist/hand problems for YEARS.
Why don't pros repair Science Vessels?
I get that SVs are good for their spellcasting, but repairing a Vessel is 123 gas, that's far better than building a new Vessel for 225 gas.
I don't think it matters in this game as a higher Vessel count wouldn't have changed much. Hydras are too efficient vs them. But its just a thing I've noticed, if the game turned a different direction (ie: towards Ultralisks), the higher Vessel count would have been better insurance.
EDIT: Or do Pros just assume they'd get Plagued again?
It's a good question. Maybe they just think it's worth the risk trying to use them with minimal HP compared to diverting attention to repairing them.
Those 6 red vessels… is it really not worth it to just send them home and repair? Huge amount of resources could be saved
I still remember the day Jaedong became the highest eSports earner.
Thats a massive CROURB on the thumbnail
Bisu has said he relies on old strats when he is pressed in late game. I don't think he can win another asl. Jaedong had a good but slight chance.
Such a waste of Terran SVs to not send them back to a repair crew or keep 2 medics for Restoration. How many more Irradiates does Terran have if he sends them back for repairs and regroups?
HE DID IT, BOYS--THA DONG WON A GAME
Love these, artosis
it never gets old watching a terran harass a zerg the same way mutas usually do
he lost about 10 workers + to wraith harassment and 1 spore immediately deterred wraith harass - idk but i think spores in those locations are just pretty darn good
he also cut down on burrow which alot of z use vs wraiths and lost again alot more + mining time
that wraith play was sick, he really milked them to the fullest
07:03 -- nice марНаск... -_-
.
I think Flash came back and did really well because he plays Terran. Zerg and Protoss are just weaker races so Jadeong and Bisu didn't come back as well.
Kappa.
Watching IShowSpeed playing StarCraft for the first time and being already a pro at it. Moved to tears.
Just finished the last video let’s go
This game shows how Wraith can be a very versatile unit that is great for harassment. I bet it was annoying for Jaedong to chase those pesky flyers all over the map.
Arty U missed the 2 Ling's under the ove, approx 5:40 mark. Thought that was interesting. Btw I did enjoy the game. Cheers
Seems like an early GG but still fun
What could the terran do here? More tanks? Drops?
GG. I like these kind of games 😊
This was desperate holdout scenario. No hope. Endless waves of Marine, absolutely demoralizing bombing flights of wraiths killing any overlord and drones enemy finds. Chance to come back this game must had been super close to zero...but not zero.
Man, crypto charts and Broodwar. Is there anything better a guy could watch all day... :P
Jae my favorite zerg all-time. But yeah recently he's been losing a lot in pro scene tournies. Could be losing his touch or not building up on his current knowledge and strats?
A little bit of everything. He has admitted himself that he took quite a lot of time off dealing with injuries and didn't practice at all. Plus as he gets older and the injuries stack up, he's less able to muscle his way forward with micro and aggression, and he has never been as good at the brainy/strategy side of things as SoulKey for example.
@@gasstationpeanuts1814 true soulkey pretty amazing as well.
SPOILER: WHY TERRAN ALWAYS DIE?
superb game!
I never liked Dark Storm but I love JD’s Zerg!!!
crazy game
Great Game
"flash came back and he's completely dominant" -- are we going to see some replays of flash? Is he competing in the ASL?
He is not in ASL
He meant came back from SC2 back to BW. Where he won several ASL's, all of which you can find online. We are still waiting for his return back from military.
Why oh why oh why does Dark Swarm last SO long??
Three straight weeks of zero Terran wins. People say Terran is op but I don’t see it. Once Zerg gets dark swarm it’s very difficult to overcome it, in my opinion. Kind of unbalanced.
How do you find the real nick names of the players in these games ?
Lee Jae-Dong (JD) and Lee Young Woong (Speed). Liquipedia is the go-to english language resource.
@@n00b1n8R man, they play under bar-code names or some smork-accounts
@@n00b1n8RI meant their real nicknames not IRL names because in the replays they are always bar codes or some random alt/smurf names.
@@kb17_17 There is a site called cwal (as in the SC cheat code) that tracks them. Not sure how they figure out whose anonymous account is whom but it's presumably accurate.
@@kb17_17oh duh, I should have realised what you meant.
Speed never had a plan to win. EZ Terran.
Strange game
MOAR HYUK!
Is it possible for bio to win after the 10 min mark?
Yes Flash has done it many times. But you gotta keep the pressure on Zerg all the way through.
It is all about vessel count. If you can keep vessels you are still fine, but if you start losing them you can't replace them as quickly as Z can just consume a few lings with a single defiler and break a base.
Artosis sounds like Tucker Carlson
I never thought about it but I do hear it now that you mention it
Queen secretly decided to dunk on cnsl which is why he didn't qualify for asl
ggs
other 99% games - either terran kills zerg within approx. 10 minutes from start, otherwise zerg will develop this shitty dark swarm and plague and there are no chances for terran player at all
I'm fairly new to the broodwar competitive scene, but I have to say that so far zerg vs terran is the least interesting matchup to watch. I actually like the mirror matchups even more than zerg vs terran.
TvT is most boring one imo, always drag for way to long
ZvT is the matchup that has produced the most classic games in Brood War. Of course, it helps that the best player ever played terran and the second best player ever played Zerg.
gg
Too early gg ?
Sup Artosis
First of first
Your camera movement is too janky
God, I hate dark swarm so much. It's just not fun to watch any more, just frustrating.
Yeah seriously, it's basically cripple or beat zerg before dark storm or you lose 95% of the time. Worst part of Brood war imo
It is the only thing keeping zerg competitive. Terran would be even more OP than they already are without it.
Part of it is consume is so broken. Trading a swarm/plauge for a few zerglings is always worth it. Make it so consume only works on gas cost units and scales with unit hp, then the math changes quite a bit.
womp womp boys back to fortnite
You're right but thanks for the spoiler
Can't watch if Terran loses
insane game
Why don't we ever see hydras vs terran
Nice game.