Having my head gaskets done on Monday again. I asked my mechanic why he didn't put the right ones in the first time and he simply didn't know about those. Of course at 215,000 now it probably doesn't matter. He did tell me years ago when he replaced the original ones that I would have to have them replaced again at a 100,000 miles. I think they went a little longer. I love this car. I love your videos; nothing hard to understand. You would make a great teacher!
As an autoparts salesman I have steered many people away from buying the standard graphite gaskets for their "buddy" to replace. So far, none of their cars have experienced the same failure again. More and more DIYers must be watching your videos! I do also recommended your tutorial videos whenever a customer asks about replacing their own headgaskets! As the owner of a '03 WRX original stock EJ205 I haven't had to worry about many issues at all 👍🏻
@@Trump985 if you had the block and the heads decked then you shouldn't have used OEM head gaskets. You have to use a thicker aftermarket gasket at that point because you have altered the piston to valve clearance drastically by decking both the case halves and the heads
@@Trump985 forgot one thing, in addition to the thicker head gasket. You would also need to cut the main journal between the case halves if the block was decked on both sides of each case half
@@Grooove_e it would all be done in shop = LINE BORING IS NEEDED = you do not know what your talking about = i think your FAKE AS HILARY CLINTON ! total head case .
As a subaru tech of 11 years I can say for certain the 3M bristle disc works great and does not damage the head. They definitely work best when they are about half worn down. I replace the gaskets with MLS and clean with the 3M discs and never had any issues and I've done DOZENS of them over the years. If the manufacturer says it's ok why would you waste hours with a razor blade? JMO
I’ve done 100 or so ej25 head gasket jobs. Always have used a 3m red scotch brute roloc disc. Never had an issue. I’m at 60k miles on my HG replacement on my own personal forester….no problems! Love Mr. Subaru but he has this one wrong
Where I live in the Northeast there are lots of dead Subaru's sitting in peoples driveways and backyard because of blown head gaskets. I always think about buying one for a couple hundred bucks and giving the fix a try.
Number 1 rule : subaru didn’t design the headgaskets right to start with, even though they said, it was fixed in 2011 on our legacy. We traded it in on a Rav4 in 2017. SUBARU isn't worth our money 37k in 2011, problems included headgasket, cat shield, cvt transmission controller, headlight replacement nightmare and driver's door window, and lock controller 95k miles. If they built it right or the way first, it would be best.😊
Man, in another life I would've liked to work for you, rarely do you see such a professional attitude in a business owner to want to do things right the first time rather than just trying to make a fast buck. I was taught to repair things by going the extra mile in aircraft mechanic school and have always applied the same philosophy to cars and appliance repair. I know we all keep our cars and washing machines below 10,000 feet AGL but seriously, cars are a huge investment and customers should expect the best from their mechanics. You could argue driving is more dangerous than flying too, but anyway I don't want my kids driving around in unreliable vehicles. My niece was lucky she didn't careen off a mountain road in Colorado when her 190K mile Outbacks ball joint separated, I guess the habit of routine vehicle inspections don't run in the family.
No mechanic can prevent an ignorant person from ignoring a problem. Or not understanding that clunking noise is dangerous when operating a high speed machine.
Totally agree 👍 My father taught me from young that if your going to do a job, do it properly or don't bother. He was a world class engineer × royal air force ranking officer. I didn't much like the drilling when i was young but he turned me into a person that looks for excellence in everything i do. And i love it. 🙏❤️
As an actual Subaru repair shop that's done 200 Subaru head gasket jobs a year for nearly ten years, I can definitively say 3 layer gaskets also fail(usually internally and not a minor external oil leak like single layer gaskets, Hydrocarbon in the antifreeze and eventual overheating problems, aftermarket "Fail-pro"/Fel-pro gaskets typically fail at lest than 50k miles from installation., factory Subaru turbo gaskets can fail as early as 100k after installation, 2010 thru 2012 legacy's and outback's come factory equipped with the 3 layer gaskets and we typically replace them at 105k along with timing belt because we know the odds of them making 140k without issues are slim to none!!!
Love this video- you've explained it well so any skill level will understand before they embark on this job. Here's something from the motorcycle industry, from the days of old: at 18:00, you should put gel-type paint remover liberally on the gasket surfaces and combustion chamber/valves. Allow it to sit, and reapply after 15 minutes (use a metal-handled acid flux brush & gloves) and your deposits & gasket remnants will be attacked and lifted from the aluminum. Use the acid brushes to "scrub" at heavier spots, wiping away the burned hydrocarbons as you go. If you take your time you'll remove everything without using a razor blade or even the plastic scrapers. Use it on the piston crowns and black gasket surfaces as well. The technique came from two stroke and older 20th century engines where "de-coking" was a periodic maintenance. I love a clean gasket surface and offer my customers a 30-day no leak guarantee- not using mechanical means to prep gasket surfaces are preferred- and I'm with you on the Rotoloc wheels- I tried them for a time and learned my lesson on cylinder mating surfaces! Keep up the good work and I hope this step gets added to peoples prep, try it yourself- just be patient and don't be afraid to soak, and re-apply. Placing plastic cling wrap over the paint remover slows its evaporation. I have cleaned head over many hours and you see the factory machining in many cases. Also, the non-safe yucky versions (with MEK etc) act better then the California-approved gels.
Very clear, very thorough, well done video. I still cannot understand why Subaru didn't solve this problem years ago, by simply building all of their engines with the MLS gasket, since it was already in their supply chain. I understand the bean counter's influence, but the corporate reputation hit has been very large indeed.
Yeah they shouldve done it long ago for EJ's. It seems like they just did that for FB and FA engines since their gaskets never seem to fail in NA nor Turbo versions.
One thing I can add after spending almost $4000 getting my gaskets done on my 2010 Forester. Don't go overboard with gasket sealer. I blew two sets of camshaft seals because the garage used too much. Found a glob of it in the oil return passage. They dug it out and everything is fine.
I have replaced a LOT of head gaskets on subarus. I have been a senior master tech for over 10 years. and have a few disagreements with a few parts. Yes proper prep is always the only way to do anything on a car. But the best way we have found when replacement of headgaskets with the graphite coated. Follow head bolt torque sequence. But not the specs. Before using the multilayer gaskets we have found 80lb on all bolts have made the graphite last 200k in some of our customers cars and not have an issue. We did switch to multilayer for extra assurance. I bought a cheap legacy where the car had been overheated 3 times after the first gasket failed. I used the graphite ones because I had a set kicking around. The heads were warped(don't do this to someone else's car and get them machined) and I never had a problem.
Our shop has a 14X32 belt sander. A quick kiss on that with a 120 grit, followed by are quick few passes on a granite block with 320 grit stuck on it, and they are money. Ra above 60 micro inches, and no worries. Literally done this at least a hundred times, anything with an MLS requires super smooth, super flat.
Most 'mechanics' that are just 'parts changers' and aren't well versed in such an inherent failure point will just slap the OEM or equivalent back on. They're going to replace what's readily available from whatever vendor the shop uses. Most shops that aren't of the 'specialty variety' do it this way because they either lack the knowledge of the issue, or they are billing for the parts that the job usually calls for. Unless you've done a few of these or are a Subaru indie shop, most likely you're not going to know any better that the MLS gasket is a necessity in this case, not just an option from a reliability standpoint. The average indie shop or garage works on tons of different makes and models and isn't a specialist in a specific make to truly know that a known failure point exists or to even check for a TSB before doing the job. Im a 25+ year tech that's been all over. Indies, Stealerships, my own business, etc. All business practices are not created equal in the world of auto repair, modding, or fab work.
@@psavel274 every auto parts store only sells MLS gaskets. You have to specifically go in there and special order an OEM gasket. Usually it’s just Felpro that’s on the shelfs
I've worked as a dealer mechanic before. We put on what the parts guy handed us. If it was the right part, great. If it was the wrong part but still fits and works at the moment, well shit, customer'll be back eventually just throw it on and send it out. Part of why I used the past tense when describing my employment thereof. I'm happily a shadetree again and I can take as long as I want to put the *right* parts on my engine.
I've always scraped gaskets the way my dad taught me when I was a kid, kind of surprised to see the angle you're using here. I was told to scrape it with the razor blade angled away, so rather than cutting material off you're scraping it off. Lots of passes to get each thin layer off, but there's no possibility you'll dig into the flange.
I used a block sanding block wider than head surface with 600 grit and wet sanded with oil. Straight edge checked every few minutes until I got spec. 600 cuts very little at a time so took a while but worked out great. This was 2018 for my 2005 WRX, still going, about to convert a 2.5 with AVCS to non AVCS cams and cam pulleys to swap into it, then I'll be again street tuning with the laptop again.
Just started a new job at a Subaru dealership as a tech, however I have been working on cars and engines my entire life. Any time I have pulled a cylinder head for any reason, I have always sent it to a machine shop to be disassembled, cleaned, valves and guides checked, resurfaced, and magnafluxed to check for any cracks.
Dear Mr Subaru, I really love your videos, especially this one. I learned Automotive Mechanics by reading College Textbooks on AutoMechanics and Factory Service Manuals. Thank you so much for telling it like it is. There is no substitute for knowledge, careful reassembly, and good parts. Again, Thank You So Much. John M.
I did exactly that by letting a local, Subaru only repair shop, put in a "new" remanufacted short block from Subaru, along with heads that had gone to a machine shop. It was done around 189k miles on my 06 Forester. And at a little over 500 miles on the "new" engine, I had a guy clip the front end, which ripped off the bumper cover and made a mess of everything. So not only did I get a heart transplant for my car, it got a face lift as well!
That just happened to my wife I put a 4800 dollar transmission in then another grand in tires and breaks then some ass slammed into her and took off totaling her car and of course insurance company doesn’t take any of that into consideration just wrote a check to pay it off and then we got what was left to buy another car after almost 5 years of payments we literally lost so much money and are left to start all over again in a market that is crazy expensive we got so screwed on this deal
Mr. Subaru! The best way I found to prep the surface of the head, is to glue down 600 grit sand paper sheets to a perfectly flat surface and place the head surface down on the paper. using x pattern strokes of moving the head on the sand paper resurfaces the head very nicely and true. Don't get aggressive, and it takes patience, but the result for me so far has been not one head gasket failure. I stay in touch with my clients and keep consistent records of their vehicles. Thanks Great video.
02 2.5L in my 88 Vanagon.(1800km on it installed in 2003) oil leak at #4 in 2017. prep with razor blade and gasket remover and installed Six-Star gaskets DIY.
As with anything internally in a combustion engine cleanliness and precision is key. If you are not willing to put the time into it to do it correctly and not willing to be clean as possible nor have the means to be don't do it.. However if you are capable and have mechanical knowledge to begin with then I would encourage you to attempt. Ive never taken apart the engine on my 18' WRX but if i had to I would and would absolutely do as he said. I've taken apart my Camaros top end and put a cam in it, ported heads (that a shop did) etc. and it really isnt bad work at all. You just gotta realize you have to be perfectly as clean as possible and that a lot of these parts are in the thousandths of an inch tolerances. If you get that wrong wheather it be straightness of a cyl. head or whatever it won't last. Bottom line: Stay clean, take your time and know your limits. Let the machine shop do ALL the precise stuff. Its nessisary for a good job.
Despite my mechanic's diagnosis, I had a failed HG at about 143K Car ran fine after that until around 200,000. Started losing more oil and developed a rod knock. At 231K I believe the HG failed again. I wish I could have advised them to use the MLS which I'm sure was available then but oh well. I will miss my 01 Legacy GT Limited. I wish they still made a sporty model like that.
I am fortunate to have two very competent Subaru mechanics in my area of Orange County NY. Trust either of these two independent shops totally with any job on my Outbacks.
I replaced my wife's 09 Forester head gaskets at 100k, caught it early! Replaced the cam caps, the water pump and timing belt. I used 3m green to clean the mating surfaces up. Cleaned some of the carbon off the head. Used the MLS gasket and copper gasket Seems to be working out.
I use gasket stripper , scrape it off with a soft scraper , repeat as many times as necessary . Finish with 240 grit sandpaper on a sanding block . Most manufacturers will supersede inferior parts with better ones - shame on Subaru for not doing the same .
Ya got me scared now. I did my ej253 on my own. I don't feel I used a "qualified" machinist, but he's all I had in the area. It's been 7 months and good so far.
when i was at GMC the "new improved" way to clean their heads was with ONLY solvent and a plastic razor blade... with that being said there was always a good bit of left over coatings .
I haven't had a full on failure yet but my 2008 Forester 2.5L was leaking oil from a leaky head gasket starting around 120k and I actually ended up fixing the leak with STP Stop Leak a few oil changes ago. I just throw a bottle of that in with every new oil change and I haven't had a SINGLE DROP of oil leak from my engine since. Hoping that keeps it going for quite some time I'm up to 150k now and it's still holding.
That's a great idea. I was thinking of using a "sodium silicate" based head gasket fixer (you throw into your coolant) such as Rislone head gasket fix, to resolve any gasket issues. But I will now combine this with STP Stop Leak for the perfect low cost fix.
I had to redo mine on my 97 legacy gt.I took a DA sander with 400 sand paper but heads were in tolerance on flatness.I do believe it was 2 thousands and i was at 1 thousands right in the middle.The block is what i was concerned with.so far so good but only got 5 thousand miles since then,i did use the new metal 3 layer subaru gasket.
Excellent review. With a razor blade, as much as I try to do it right, anything sharper than 90 deg causes it to dig in when the blade hits resistance. Next time it's the machine shop, I want to completely skip efforts by hand.
I did some hg's last year on one of my Subi's, I went after it with a harbor freight long sanding block, 220 wet sand paper, wd40, a straight edge and some scotch bright. This year it got new crank, rods, pistons, etc.....The heads still looked great and just needed a little clean up. My biggest advise for the diy'er, Don't skip cleaning out the rocker runners. At a minimum, Strip the rockers and cams and clean them. Even if it is just a hg repair. Most of the things that make your Subaru sound old and tired are right there and can be cleaned out.
hey you know what that rattle is on start up on those subaru engines even my 93 loyale does it but not as loud . its quite noticeable on the ej engines (something internal not the tensioner)
GM had that same problem with the Rolac discs,they were replacing engines from improper engine gasket surface cleaning.The little pieces would get in the oil which the oil filter could not trap resulting in premature engine failure.They put a TSB out on this not use them for gasket surface cleaning
My parents always had subrau cars. I bought a 2005 dodge cummins with 1.3 million miles on the stock motor. My parents have had 5 cars in the same time period
those roloc cookie discs and also the white one you shown are both sold as gasket removers by 3m. they do remove material but that is what a gasket is for, there is enough tolerance in the gasket to fill any gaps. the reason subaru head gaskets blow up so much as you said is because they're poor graphite ones and not made very well like honda. the biggest reason there was a TSB on those roloc discs tho is aluminum oxide contamination, when you use them it shoots aluminum dust all over your engine. getting into oil and coolant and causing internal wear. very bad stuff.
Check the block surface too! Both surfaces have to be totally flat or at least within the spec listed in the FSM, which is a few thousandths. Since most Subaru blocks are open deck design, they get warped more easily especially if ran hot! Also escaping combustion gasses can cause low spots on the block or head surface where they are squeezed passed the "leak"
Surface prep is not geometry correction. Though it is 100% possible to correct a warped head with hand tools by scraping the head and the top of the block in to match one another, in fact a skilled scraper hand can match surfaces so well they'll seal without a gasket. It would take forever though, which is why it's not done.
Sometimes you don’t get to learn from other peoples mistakes so you gotta make them yourself to learn. Some people are too hard headed to think it is their own fault though.
Richard, this mentality is why i have a stronger skillset than you. By the time I'm your age I will be better than you / know more than you on every single topic if I don't already at 28. You too 'E Flanagan'
People that know what they’re doing probably work at a shop. The quote I got at a shop for this is more than the value of the vehicle. So rule #2, if the car is scrap anyway what’s the worst thing that could happen?
I used the white roloc bristle disc on my heads and they were still good and flat afterwards, checked with a machinist flat edge and the thinnest 0.0015" feeler gauge I have at every spot and angle on the heads.
It would be great if you could do a video with your guy at the machine shop. Any additional details about machining the heads would be appreciated. I'm in the process of buying a 04' Legacy GT and while I think the engine in it is beyond repair, I would at least want to know what I should expect from my local machine shop should the engine be salvagable. Can't remember if you said it in the video but does the shortblock / crankcase usually need to be machined as well?
I've done a few head gaskets before. Started on old Toyotas that didn't have over head cams. Really simple. Worked my way up to sohc then dohc motors. Haven't done a boxer motor yet. I've got a Subaru outback that is dripping oil from both heads. No coolant leaking so isn't overheating. I'm just going to put up with the drips. I'll put some cardboard down and swap it out every so often 😂. I dread the thought of pulling the motor and all that's involved. I'm not paying potentially thousands for a shop to fix what is currently just a slow oil drip. Realistically I'll probably sell it and buy another Toyota 😂
Be careful! those oil drips become internal coolant drips and the leak path can be straight from the coolant jacket to the big oil return galleys at the bottom of the engine, where you are seeing the oil drips. This is a common pathway, and I got several dozen subie head gaskets hanging on my wall of shame to instruct my customers about it! Best to find the right shop in your area, and do it once, do it right, and be done forever.
I bought in 2013 Subaru Legacy H6 engine just to avoid the head gasket issues with the 2.5L four cylinder design. Never had those graphite engine gaskets, so the problem does not exist. Now have 111,000 miles and while it burns a tiny amount of oil, no gasket problems at all. Just change the oil every 5000 miles and trouble free driving. So I find these videos interesting and just thank my knowledge of the gasket problem back in the day allowed me to avoid all the headaches of the gasket saga.
Hopefully you are the fortunate one that don't have to have headgaskets replaced!! Because H6 is way more time consuming than the H4 single cam, twin cam, na, are even turbo charged.
@@joel.3112 Agreed. Changing the driver's side spark plug close to the back of the box is no picnic either! Need a mirror and a u-joint socket to make it work. Now have 120,000 and still no issues and don't plan to have them either.
@@davidprice9815 I asked about that. Not recommended as it still wears out the engine coils if you don't change them by 90,000 miles max. To go an extra 30,000 the cost does not seem worth it.
The Subaru Gasket Kit I bought with my EJ253 short block came with MLS gaskets. This was ~3 years ago. So maybe I got lucky? Until I watched your videos, I assumed all manufactures used MLS gaskets after the late 1990's. The funny thing is with the Chrysler 2.2/2.5, was the coolant leaking into the cylinders was never the composite HG issue for me. It was always the head cracking between the valves. Then the 2.0/2.4 was actually the HG. Thankfully that was an (relatively) cheaper/easier fix. Like the Subaru, once you use the MLS HG, and do proper prep work, the issue never returns. I found a cheaper than full price set of new ARP studs on ebay to use on my EJ253, and have had zero issues with leakage despite the much simpler to torque process. So if the torque procedure that Subaru has, is a bit daunting for you, it might be worth the ~$200 full price for a set of ARP studs if you aren't confident that you will get it right. $200 is still cheaper than redoing it, and the frustration that comes with that. Just an option for the DIY'ers if you're not comfortable with the torque to yield head bolts, and Subaru's extra steps needed.
When I had my shop subarus were a very large percentage of what we worked on. We resealed rebuilt and did high performance builds consistently..one thing I started doing was cutting the heads and block to a very slightly rougher RA that very small difference seemed to completely fix the problem. I never had a single one of my head gasket repair come back with seeing some drive 150k+ miles after the repair Before I started doing that I had a few issues...
I had my shop repl my old engine on my 2015 Forrester. The reason I waited to buy the 2015 model was told that the old head gasket series was updated to a permanent head gasket. WRONG! the same cheap junk gasket was in my orginal engine which of course failed. I had a used engine installed (the engine had 49k miles) however I know this engine has the same head gasket as the old engine(my bad) now I have 89k on my repl engine and hope that this thing stays togethere. I have serviced this car systems perfectly. I am glad to see your videos on Subaru repairs. I wish I known this before I spent $5K on the used replacement engine. Can you recommend an engine rebuilder that will "blueprint" a repl engine?
Loved to see a recommendation for proper machine work! For good MLS sealing, they need to be surfaced to a specific surface finish, which means being cut using some form of flycutter with a PCD(Poly Crystalline Diamond), CBN(Cubic Boron Nitride) or similar cutting insert.
@@EchoSixMike this might get me banned for saying, but maybe the Fel-pro route is the way to go? They are MLS and the coating is supposed to adhere to the surfaces to make up for the not so finished surface.
I literally just picked my 2015 outback 2.5l with 89,000 mi on it, from a head gasket repair. After watching one of your videos, I made sure Subaru put the multi layered gasket on my car. Since my extended warranty backed out on some of the cost, I complained to SOA and they chipped in $1000. I just hope this will be last time.
I mess around with 4 banger in line heads all the time, I have a diamond flat plate for sharpening knifes etc, I spray oven cleaner on stuff to remove crap, and if the head is aluminum and the warp is over 2,000 inch , I just rub and pass the diamond plate over it till I get less then the gasket thickness,
I'm not a Subaru guy, but I used to own a 1991 Chevy Corsica, which I managed to restore and get running after a blown head gasket. Thing was, I followed the book specs, which called for 43 foot pounds on the front and 46 on the back bolts. I followed the instructions exactly. I didn't realize until like a year and a half later that something just wasn't right. Cold weather hit and I found myself losing coolant. So I went back in and re-torqued them to the book specs, again... After another year and a half, this new head gasket I had installed myself finally went out, so I ended up having to install yet another head gasket... Welp, turns out the 1991 version of the Corsica had sh!tty specs which only called for a single pass head bolt torquing sequence. The later 1992 version upgraded that to a three pass torquing sequence. When I replaced the head gasket the second time, I basically adopted the 1992 model instructions on my old 91. And FINALLY the head held tight! Is there something to learn from my short story? Likely yes. If an old car ignorantly calls for only one pass on the head bolts, ignore that crap and do a three pass, make sure that sh!t is tight!
I replaced two 99-2000 foresters HGaskets with felpro mls and both failed prematurely 4-5 years and 40-50k miles. All procedures followed heads machined, valve guides repaired, valve seals replaced. Very upsetting as originally gaskets seeping but still great and lasted 2-3 years longer then felpro. One car had waterless coolant evans, and running no cooling system psi and lab test on coolant was good, Talked to mr Subaru and recommended the turbo HG, wish I had known this before hand. And not so trusting of aftermarket gaskets
I’m on my second 2.0xt. I always change the oil every 5,000km with the Subaru SN 5w-30 oil and Subaru oil filter. Someone once said he changes the oil because it’s cheap. The Subaru oil isn’t cheap and it’s VERY important to use the Subaru oil. If your oil is cheap you’re using the wrong oil! I know of at least two Forester owners locally who haven’t used the Subaru oil and they’ve ended up having to get new engines. Also it’s important to change the engine belt and tensioner every 100,000km (60k miles). When you fit a new belt you MUST change the tensioner as well (the tensioner bearing starts to go, which is usually what damages the belt). When that belt goes it’s a new engine! It’s strongly advised the belt and tensioner are Subaru parts. Most aftermarket parts are very poor quality and with the 2.0xt being a high performance engine you’d be taking a huge gamble with what is an engine critical component. I’ve never had a head gasket go.
My Ej20x has 293k still runs perfectly oil & filter every 5000 click's.Factory head gasket still in place loving my Subi doesn't loose coolant,or leak oil burnt about 125ml after a 1500km interstate trip tight as a drum.
Great information! I know this is about the heads, but I would think a comment about a quick block inspection would be appropriate. What are the basics of block surface inspection (maybe it's a well known fact that just because heads have warped due to heating, blocks don't in TEND TO, and usually survive). Maybe you should clean the pistons/rings, treat with a lubricant, or maybe you should NOT touch them. Maybe you should pack your cylinders with a soaked rag and prep the surfaces with the side pointing downward on an engine stand, etc. Again, the point would be how to know you'll probably have a lot more life if you focus on proper restoration of the heads....
Do it Right, Do it light Do it wrong, Do it Long... Love it. Meanwhile, I have an EJ20 SF5. Having Loads of Power loss during acceleration. Checked Compression on the Plugs(OK), Changed Head Gaskets, Fuel Valves, Pump, Filter Spark Plugs, What option do i look into.
I used to work as an engineer for chrysler on the neon engine back in the day. the graphite gasket developed an oil leak, because the feed to the cylinder head was outside the permiter created by the headbolts. An MLS gasket was released in like '98...problem solved
Much appreciated. I have my wife's 2002 Outback Wagon with a disappearing radiator fluid issue and the oil don't look great for too long! I am thinking head gasket issues? Non-turbo car, but I understand the "not all gaskets are created the same quality." I live in West Texas. No dealer or mechanic I trust or that wants to touch it. That leaves me to fix it or trailer it somewhere a long ways away to have it fixed. Yeah for me!
2015 subaru outback 2.5. Head gaskets popped at 45,000. MLS from the factory. Don't think they did bad prep work. Camshaft replacement at 70k. All under warranty but still, not super confident in this thing
I bought the 3.6R so I don’t have to do head gaskets ever again after owning a 97 RS and a 08 2.5i, both of which needed head gaskets by the 100k~ mile mark
I get a chuckle when YT commenters say that the gaskets fail because they are always in contact with the coolant. They say that the coolant doesn't drain down like it does in the vertical 4 cylinders! Have you seen these comments?
They make diesel engines with a set of pistons that stroke down (with a matching set up). I guess those mechanical minded folk forgot about the pressure needed for IC engines to work. I like that one...
After using them during a valve cover gasket replacement I definitely like using plastic razor blades. They’re not as sharp as a metal blade but the risk of damage is essentially non existent.
I agree the MLS gaskets are better but they do fail. Did head gaskets on a 2011 outback non turbo. Compression ring cracked even with the coolant passage.
My ej251 block’s surface was slightly warped.. I cleaned/resurfaced the block with a straight counter slab, very fine sand paper and WD40.. and after the Heads were machined and installing MLS H/Gs, they haven’t leaked again..btw, I tested the block surface with a depth gauge and not even 1/1000” would go under the straight edge, proving the granite slab resurfacing worked! I don’t advise people to do this because you have to remove the dowels and really know what your doing, but it does work.
EJ25 DOHC. I'm confident I could do the head gasket. I'm also self aware enough not to try after researching what needs done. "A podiatrist is trained and can do it in a pinch, but I still don't recommend going to one for heart surgery."
Just want to say. The MLS OEM gaskets used on a 2010-2012 Legacy/Outback still fail no question. These years of Subaru's with the 2.5L develop internal head gasket issue very similar to the gen one 2.5L used in the 1996-1999 Legacy GT or Outback and cause extreme damage to the engine.... I have replaced short blocks over this issue many times now due to cylinder wall damage. No joke the cylinder wall at the point of the leak internally by the head gasket is rusted and pitted you can't fix rusty cylinder walls for cheap! Yes, you absolutely must get the head decks and the block surface perfect before replacing the head gaskets, but replacing the cylinder head gasket will not fix the issue. The issue is the cylinder walls themselves not being supported correctly in the block. Due to the nature of any open deck Subaru engine the cylinder walls basically "vibrates" too much causing the block deck surface to become warped. This is why you DONT see cylinder head gasket failures on any turbocharge EJ engines. They have semi-closed deck blocks that have "slight' block improvements to get the cylinders true. Subaru has known this forever and make the EJ turbo blocks the way they do for a good reason! Yes better for power and boost but MUCH less likely to have cylinder wall issue from detonation and such. The sad story is all EJ open deck motors are time bombs for head gaskets for this reason. The only fix is a block swap with MLS head gaskets from my experience.
I’m in the middle of pulling my heads on a 12 Outback. So your saying don’t waste my time putting those heads back on? What else do I look for? @tommiors
@TommioRS But the Turbocharged EJ205 is Open Deck. So your saying all turbocharged EJs are reliable to this Problem but at the Last sentence your saying, that all open Deck Motors are Time Bombs? Can you please explaine that, im very confused.
My 2010 Outback had HG's replaced by dealer around 215kM. Car is now 460km and HGs have failed again. Funny thing is I thought the CVT would go first on this car. Of course sales guy who sold me this car said Subaru has sorted out the HGs in my model year.
I live on an island, and the closest machinist with a Rottler CBN head surfacer is a long way away. If he is busy, it's a ferry trip to the mainland. over and back two times 4 hours each, and $40 in ferry fees. So I'm very out in a rural area, and in my own. But, since I have a aerospace machining background from the 1980's and know about RMS finishes and such. I have a Bridgeport, I bought the right tools (big, flywheel type fly cutter) to be able to surface heads in house. I'm able to hold a RMS 20 finish (or better, usually RMS 15 SAE.) The secret to that is the right feeds and speeds, a razor sharp carbide cutter with the right geometry, and a light coolant spray mist. It comes off the mill with a total warpage of .0005 (convex) . Well within specs. It would be better if the mill wasn't old, and a bit hunchbacked on the table. The thing is, every block I check has .001 to .0015" (usually .0015") concave warpage, even if it's never been overheated. So the the total warp is .0005 plus .0015 on the block, which is the maximum .002" allowed . Not great. I don't want to start out at the maximum warp allowed. (I understand some would say that .0005 convex plus .0015 concave equals .001" . You have a point. But I think it works better my way.) So I worked out a way to put an assembled shortblock engine on the Bridgeport, seal it from the swarf, level and fasten it to the machine. The block surface to be refinished is shimmed so that the least amount of material needs to be removed, (usually under .002") and get that same .0005 convex , RMS 15 surface finish on it too! . My way, there is .001 total warp, (.0005 block and .0005" head) with the warp being convex on both surfaces, which is opposite of the warp they develop in service. I think folks don't pay enough attention to the block warp. I used to work in areospace, where sometimes total tolerance working on shuttle parts (Yeah, I'm that old) would be .0002", I can accurately measure this using one of several pink granite surface plates in the shop and a good , self calibrated straight edge. MLS gaskets are intolerant of rough surfaces, scratch's of any kind and contamination of any kind. Be super careful people. It's not like the old days. Good luck. Happy wrenching. And yes, I charge a lot for this.
Literally everyone I know with a Subaru(me included), and almost everyone online: my head gasket blew. Mr Subaru: here we are with another video about the MYTH that Subaru head gaskets are always blowing.... Also, here is why they always blow. When you have to buy an aftermarket gasket, and when the gasket you get from the dealership is faulty or prone to failure, it's still a problem.
Hi Mr Subaru, I really enjoyed the video. However, you wouldn't happen to have a check list of what should be done when having the HG replaced and what is the right part number for the MLS HG for naturally aspirated 2.5 series engine. It would be greatly appreciated, thanks again for all the informative videos!
Have you tried by chance the Loctite 79040 “Gasket Chisel”? We use this all the time in marine applications and it will eat your skin off but it works so well! Give it a try!
I love the look of the Impreza but I’ve been told time and time again that I’m going to blow a gasket. Now I know that you have to take the engine out to replace the gasket and I have no idea how much that would cost and I’d like to know what you charge
Original owner of a 2002 WRX stock EJ205 with over 238K miles. Knock on wood - no head gasket failures. Specialist said the 2.5-liter is nowhere near as reliable as the 2.0-liter in this respect. Had a 2006 Impreza 2.5i and the head gasket blew at, wait for it, 74K miles. After the quote of $1900, a letter to Subaru of America knocked that down to $800-$900 with a timing belt replacement thrown in. Leave it to the dealer to not replace the water pump, tensioners, and pulleys when everything is apart, even though I asked for that specifically. "Those parts never need replacing in our experience".
Why does Subaru paint the oil pan bolt & crush washer at both ends which makes it very difficult to remove/break the paint seal? Darn near stripped the head. Luckily, replacing with a fumoto ... Also, doesn't that black paint come off inside the oil pan and cause issues?
"Might as well do this while we're in here" was one of my dad's favorite lines, glad to see it's still alive.
Having my head gaskets done on Monday again. I asked my mechanic why he didn't put the right ones in the first time and he simply didn't know about those. Of course at 215,000 now it probably doesn't matter. He did tell me years ago when he replaced the original ones that I would have to have them replaced again at a 100,000 miles. I think they went a little longer. I love this car. I love your videos; nothing hard to understand. You would make a great teacher!
As an autoparts salesman I have steered many people away from buying the standard graphite gaskets for their "buddy" to replace. So far, none of their cars have experienced the same failure again. More and more DIYers must be watching your videos! I do also recommended your tutorial videos whenever a customer asks about replacing their own headgaskets! As the owner of a '03 WRX original stock EJ205 I haven't had to worry about many issues at all 👍🏻
@@Trump985 if you had the block and the heads decked then you shouldn't have used OEM head gaskets. You have to use a thicker aftermarket gasket at that point because you have altered the piston to valve clearance drastically by decking both the case halves and the heads
@@Trump985 forgot one thing, in addition to the thicker head gasket. You would also need to cut the main journal between the case halves if the block was decked on both sides of each case half
@@Grooove_e it would all be done in shop = LINE BORING IS NEEDED = you do not know what your talking about = i think your FAKE AS HILARY CLINTON ! total head case .
Can you help me out by telling me what part number the correct gasket for an EJ204 is? I'm over in Europe, and I'm having trouble finding it.
As a subaru tech of 11 years I can say for certain the 3M bristle disc works great and does not damage the head. They definitely work best when they are about half worn down. I replace the gaskets with MLS and clean with the 3M discs and never had any issues and I've done DOZENS of them over the years. If the manufacturer says it's ok why would you waste hours with a razor blade? JMO
Agree 100%. Done dozens and dozens with a 3M bristle and never had a comeback...sidework and in the shop.
@eurotrash55 I wouldn't go back to the same mechanic after my new headgasket blew. Just saying ^.^
hey brotha i have a 2013 wrx with 128k miles, want to start producing power could i ask you a couple of questions
Failure to machine heads, the lack of cross flow coolant to the passenger side head in extreme cold weather, under torque head bolts.
I’ve done 100 or so ej25 head gasket jobs. Always have used a 3m red scotch brute roloc disc. Never had an issue. I’m at 60k miles on my HG replacement on my own personal forester….no problems! Love Mr. Subaru but he has this one wrong
People should just ask themselves "Do I want it right? Or right now?" Take your time and do it right is what I say.
Where I live in the Northeast there are lots of dead Subaru's sitting in peoples driveways and backyard because of blown head gaskets. I always think about buying one for a couple hundred bucks and giving the fix a try.
People think they are worth $1500, blown up.
Number 1 rule : subaru didn’t design the headgaskets right to start with, even though they said, it was fixed in 2011 on our legacy. We traded it in on a Rav4 in 2017. SUBARU isn't worth our money 37k in 2011, problems included headgasket, cat shield, cvt transmission controller, headlight replacement nightmare and driver's door window, and lock controller 95k miles. If they built it right or the way first, it would be best.😊
Man, in another life I would've liked to work for you, rarely do you see such a professional attitude in a business owner to want to do things right the first time rather than just trying to make a fast buck. I was taught to repair things by going the extra mile in aircraft mechanic school and have always applied the same philosophy to cars and appliance repair. I know we all keep our cars and washing machines below 10,000 feet AGL but seriously, cars are a huge investment and customers should expect the best from their mechanics. You could argue driving is more dangerous than flying too, but anyway I don't want my kids driving around in unreliable vehicles. My niece was lucky she didn't careen off a mountain road in Colorado when her 190K mile Outbacks ball joint separated, I guess the habit of routine vehicle inspections don't run in the family.
No mechanic can prevent an ignorant person from ignoring a problem.
Or not understanding that clunking noise is dangerous when operating a high speed machine.
You are so right! That’s the attitude I wish all mechanics had. You don’t mind paying more for a job well done. 👍
Totally agree 👍
My father taught me from young that if your going to do a job, do it properly or don't bother.
He was a world class engineer × royal air force ranking officer.
I didn't much like the drilling when i was young but he turned me into a person that looks for excellence in everything i do.
And i love it. 🙏❤️
As an actual Subaru repair shop that's done 200 Subaru head gasket jobs a year for nearly ten years, I can definitively say 3 layer gaskets also fail(usually internally and not a minor external oil leak like single layer gaskets, Hydrocarbon in the antifreeze and eventual overheating problems, aftermarket "Fail-pro"/Fel-pro gaskets typically fail at lest than 50k miles from installation., factory Subaru turbo gaskets can fail as early as 100k after installation, 2010 thru 2012 legacy's and outback's come factory equipped with the 3 layer gaskets and we typically replace them at 105k along with timing belt because we know the odds of them making 140k without issues are slim to none!!!
Love this video- you've explained it well so any skill level will understand before they embark on this job.
Here's something from the motorcycle industry, from the days of old: at 18:00, you should put gel-type paint remover liberally on the gasket surfaces and combustion chamber/valves. Allow it to sit, and reapply after 15 minutes (use a metal-handled acid flux brush & gloves) and your deposits & gasket remnants will be attacked and lifted from the aluminum. Use the acid brushes to "scrub" at heavier spots, wiping away the burned hydrocarbons as you go. If you take your time you'll remove everything without using a razor blade or even the plastic scrapers. Use it on the piston crowns and black gasket surfaces as well.
The technique came from two stroke and older 20th century engines where "de-coking" was a periodic maintenance.
I love a clean gasket surface and offer my customers a 30-day no leak guarantee- not using mechanical means to prep gasket surfaces are preferred- and I'm with you on the Rotoloc wheels- I tried them for a time and learned my lesson on cylinder mating surfaces!
Keep up the good work and I hope this step gets added to peoples prep, try it yourself- just be patient and don't be afraid to soak, and re-apply. Placing plastic cling wrap over the paint remover slows its evaporation. I have cleaned head over many hours and you see the factory machining in many cases. Also, the non-safe yucky versions (with MEK etc) act better then the California-approved gels.
Very clear, very thorough, well done video. I still cannot understand why Subaru didn't solve this problem years ago, by simply building all of their engines with the MLS gasket, since it was already in their supply chain. I understand the bean counter's influence, but the corporate reputation hit has been very large indeed.
Yeah they shouldve done it long ago for EJ's.
It seems like they just did that for FB and FA engines since their gaskets never seem to fail in NA nor Turbo versions.
Because they make a killing selling gaskets aftersale 🤷♂️ truth sucks
The MBA mentality ( the same mentality that has destroyed Sears,Kmart, GM, Chrysler Montgomery Ward ) etc took over
@@stephenedwards5567 I suspect they're exploiting unplanned obsolescence, which is great for the bottom line, aka all that matters to them..
After all these years one would assume Subaru would be literal head gasket experts.
MrSubaru is the most influential person I know! thank you for the video!
One thing I can add after spending almost $4000 getting my gaskets done on my 2010 Forester. Don't go overboard with gasket sealer. I blew two sets of camshaft seals because the garage used too much. Found a glob of it in the oil return passage. They dug it out and everything is fine.
As a mechanic I can confirm more is not better. Use the correct amount of RTV.
I have replaced a LOT of head gaskets on subarus. I have been a senior master tech for over 10 years. and have a few disagreements with a few parts. Yes proper prep is always the only way to do anything on a car. But the best way we have found when replacement of headgaskets with the graphite coated. Follow head bolt torque sequence. But not the specs. Before using the multilayer gaskets we have found 80lb on all bolts have made the graphite last 200k in some of our customers cars and not have an issue. We did switch to multilayer for extra assurance. I bought a cheap legacy where the car had been overheated 3 times after the first gasket failed. I used the graphite ones because I had a set kicking around. The heads were warped(don't do this to someone else's car and get them machined) and I never had a problem.
Fantastic timing! Presently in the middle of this procedure.
Our shop has a 14X32 belt sander. A quick kiss on that with a 120 grit, followed by are quick few passes on a granite block with 320 grit stuck on it, and they are money. Ra above 60 micro inches, and no worries. Literally done this at least a hundred times, anything with an MLS requires super smooth, super flat.
Im studying for my engine diagnosis certification. I have no idea why a mechanic would not put a MSL gasket on. haha nice vid dude
Most 'mechanics' that are just 'parts changers' and aren't well versed in such an inherent failure point will just slap the OEM or equivalent back on. They're going to replace what's readily available from whatever vendor the shop uses. Most shops that aren't of the 'specialty variety' do it this way because they either lack the knowledge of the issue, or they are billing for the parts that the job usually calls for. Unless you've done a few of these or are a Subaru indie shop, most likely you're not going to know any better that the MLS gasket is a necessity in this case, not just an option from a reliability standpoint. The average indie shop or garage works on tons of different makes and models and isn't a specialist in a specific make to truly know that a known failure point exists or to even check for a TSB before doing the job. Im a 25+ year tech that's been all over. Indies, Stealerships, my own business, etc. All business practices are not created equal in the world of auto repair, modding, or fab work.
@@psavel274 every auto parts store only sells MLS gaskets. You have to specifically go in there and special order an OEM gasket. Usually it’s just Felpro that’s on the shelfs
I've worked as a dealer mechanic before. We put on what the parts guy handed us. If it was the right part, great. If it was the wrong part but still fits and works at the moment, well shit, customer'll be back eventually just throw it on and send it out.
Part of why I used the past tense when describing my employment thereof. I'm happily a shadetree again and I can take as long as I want to put the *right* parts on my engine.
I've always scraped gaskets the way my dad taught me when I was a kid, kind of surprised to see the angle you're using here. I was told to scrape it with the razor blade angled away, so rather than cutting material off you're scraping it off. Lots of passes to get each thin layer off, but there's no possibility you'll dig into the flange.
I used a block sanding block wider than head surface with 600 grit and wet sanded with oil. Straight edge checked every few minutes until I got spec. 600 cuts very little at a time so took a while but worked out great. This was 2018 for my 2005 WRX, still going, about to convert a 2.5 with AVCS to non AVCS cams and cam pulleys to swap into it, then I'll be again street tuning with the laptop again.
I do the same but with thick piece of glass
Just started a new job at a Subaru dealership as a tech, however I have been working on cars and engines my entire life. Any time I have pulled a cylinder head for any reason, I have always sent it to a machine shop to be disassembled, cleaned, valves and guides checked, resurfaced, and magnafluxed to check for any cracks.
Dear Mr Subaru, I really love your videos, especially this one. I learned Automotive Mechanics by reading College Textbooks on AutoMechanics and Factory Service Manuals. Thank you so much for telling it like it is. There is no substitute for knowledge, careful reassembly, and good parts. Again, Thank You So Much. John M.
I did exactly that by letting a local, Subaru only repair shop, put in a "new" remanufacted short block from Subaru, along with heads that had gone to a machine shop. It was done around 189k miles on my 06 Forester. And at a little over 500 miles on the "new" engine, I had a guy clip the front end, which ripped off the bumper cover and made a mess of everything. So not only did I get a heart transplant for my car, it got a face lift as well!
That just happened to my wife I put a 4800 dollar transmission in then another grand in tires and breaks then some ass slammed into her and took off totaling her car and of course insurance company doesn’t take any of that into consideration just wrote a check to pay it off and then we got what was left to buy another car after almost 5 years of payments we literally lost so much money and are left to start all over again in a market that is crazy expensive we got so screwed on this deal
@@tonyvelez9869 so sorry to hear. thats just life, these days idiots everywhere
Mr. Subaru! The best way I found to prep the surface of the head, is to glue down 600 grit sand paper sheets to a perfectly flat surface and place the head surface down on the paper. using x pattern strokes of moving the head on the sand paper resurfaces the head very nicely and true. Don't get aggressive, and it takes patience, but the result for me so far has been not one head gasket failure. I stay in touch with my clients and keep consistent records of their vehicles. Thanks Great video.
02 2.5L in my 88 Vanagon.(1800km on it installed in 2003) oil leak at #4 in 2017. prep with razor blade and gasket remover and installed Six-Star gaskets DIY.
Six-Stars fail like other after market gaskets, they're coated, or used to be. Have three blow sets on the wall in the shop.
Great info here. I'll stick with the EJ22 and not worry about the gaskets!
As with anything internally in a combustion engine cleanliness and precision is key.
If you are not willing to put the time into it to do it correctly and not willing to be clean as possible nor have the means to be don't do it..
However if you are capable and have mechanical knowledge to begin with then I would encourage you to attempt. Ive never taken apart the engine on my 18' WRX but if i had to I would and would absolutely do as he said. I've taken apart my Camaros top end and put a cam in it, ported heads (that a shop did) etc. and it really isnt bad work at all. You just gotta realize you have to be perfectly as clean as possible and that a lot of these parts are in the thousandths of an inch tolerances. If you get that wrong wheather it be straightness of a cyl. head or whatever it won't last. Bottom line:
Stay clean, take your time and know your limits. Let the machine shop do ALL the precise stuff. Its nessisary for a good job.
This guy is a legend!
Great work Roby keep it up!
agree 100%, there are shops & individuals cutting corners.
If you find a shop not cutting corners your lucky. I fix my own for a very good reason.
I just go for having the heads machineshopped, it costs some money but the result is so much better
Despite my mechanic's diagnosis, I had a failed HG at about 143K Car ran fine after that until around 200,000. Started losing more oil and developed a rod knock. At 231K I believe the HG failed again. I wish I could have advised them to use the MLS which I'm sure was available then but oh well. I will miss my 01 Legacy GT Limited. I wish they still made a sporty model like that.
Wrx go vroom
I am fortunate to have two very competent Subaru mechanics in my area of Orange County NY. Trust either of these two independent shops totally with any job on my Outbacks.
Who are the mechanics in Orange county? I live in Rockland County
I replaced my wife's 09 Forester head gaskets at 100k, caught it early!
Replaced the cam caps, the water pump and timing belt.
I used 3m green to clean the mating surfaces up.
Cleaned some of the carbon off the head.
Used the MLS gasket and copper gasket
Seems to be working out.
I use gasket stripper , scrape it off with a soft scraper , repeat as many times as necessary . Finish with 240 grit sandpaper on a sanding block . Most manufacturers will supersede inferior parts with better ones - shame on Subaru for not doing the same .
Ya got me scared now. I did my ej253 on my own. I don't feel I used a "qualified" machinist, but he's all I had in the area. It's been 7 months and good so far.
I always heard "Do it nice or do it twice" from my momma. Always stuck with me even 25yrs later.
when i was at GMC the "new improved" way to clean their heads was with ONLY solvent and a plastic razor blade... with that being said there was always a good bit of left over coatings .
I haven't had a full on failure yet but my 2008 Forester 2.5L was leaking oil from a leaky head gasket starting around 120k and I actually ended up fixing the leak with STP Stop Leak a few oil changes ago. I just throw a bottle of that in with every new oil change and I haven't had a SINGLE DROP of oil leak from my engine since. Hoping that keeps it going for quite some time I'm up to 150k now and it's still holding.
That's a great idea. I was thinking of using a "sodium silicate" based head gasket fixer (you throw into your coolant) such as Rislone head gasket fix, to resolve any gasket issues. But I will now combine this with STP Stop Leak for the perfect low cost fix.
I had to redo mine on my 97 legacy gt.I took a DA sander with 400 sand paper but heads were in tolerance on flatness.I do believe it was 2 thousands and i was at 1 thousands right in the middle.The block is what i was concerned with.so far so good but only got 5 thousand miles since then,i did use the new metal 3 layer subaru gasket.
Excellent review. With a razor blade, as much as I try to do it right, anything sharper than 90 deg causes it to dig in when the blade hits resistance. Next time it's the machine shop, I want to completely skip efforts by hand.
3:40 - 'one thing I love about Subarus is you can buy this gasket kit... with the wrong headgaskets' 🤔
I did some hg's last year on one of my Subi's, I went after it with a harbor freight long sanding block, 220 wet sand paper, wd40, a straight edge and some scotch bright. This year it got new crank, rods, pistons, etc.....The heads still looked great and just needed a little clean up. My biggest advise for the diy'er, Don't skip cleaning out the rocker runners. At a minimum, Strip the rockers and cams and clean them. Even if it is just a hg repair. Most of the things that make your Subaru sound old and tired are right there and can be cleaned out.
hey you know what that rattle is on start up on those subaru engines even my 93 loyale does it but not as loud . its quite noticeable on the ej engines (something internal not the tensioner)
@@Dankcatvacs High-mileage Subies are known for some piston slap on startup.
i have found a hand held green scotchbrite pad works great for cleaning sealing surfaces
GM had that same problem with the Rolac discs,they were replacing engines from improper engine gasket surface cleaning.The little pieces would get in the oil which the oil filter could not trap resulting in premature engine failure.They put a TSB out on this not use them for gasket surface cleaning
Yup. Cummins as well.
People think the Roloc bristles are just harmless rubber or silicone rubber, but they have aluminum oxide particles molded into the brush.
I bought an older Subaru based on it's dependability and relatively simple maintenance and there seems to be a lot of stuff for me to worry about.
@@Bigguy_33 How many miles were on the clock up until then?
Subarus are great except their head gasket, and lack of cross flow coolant circulation to the passenger side head in extreme cold weather.
@@Steevo69 Guess what...had to have my head gaskets and radiator replaced to the tune of just under 2K since I posted this comment. Lol!
My parents always had subrau cars. I bought a 2005 dodge cummins with 1.3 million miles on the stock motor. My parents have had 5 cars in the same time period
@@smmusicplus96I've gotta find a local subaru shop that don't charge ridiculous labor. Had a shop quote me $8000 to install a used engine.
Haha 27 yrs ago I was a younger diesel mechanic. Took a roloc to the front cover of a L10 Cummins.
Did not work out well.
😂 😂 😂
those roloc cookie discs and also the white one you shown are both sold as gasket removers by 3m. they do remove material but that is what a gasket is for, there is enough tolerance in the gasket to fill any gaps. the reason subaru head gaskets blow up so much as you said is because they're poor graphite ones and not made very well like honda. the biggest reason there was a TSB on those roloc discs tho is aluminum oxide contamination, when you use them it shoots aluminum dust all over your engine. getting into oil and coolant and causing internal wear. very bad stuff.
Check the block surface too! Both surfaces have to be totally flat or at least within the spec listed in the FSM, which is a few thousandths. Since most Subaru blocks are open deck design, they get warped more easily especially if ran hot! Also escaping combustion gasses can cause low spots on the block or head surface where they are squeezed passed the "leak"
My preferred gasket surface prep method is a 3"x 6" sharpening stone.
Surface prep is not geometry correction. Though it is 100% possible to correct a warped head with hand tools by scraping the head and the top of the block in to match one another, in fact a skilled scraper hand can match surfaces so well they'll seal without a gasket. It would take forever though, which is why it's not done.
Rule 1. Don't try this at home unless you know what the heck you're doing in the first place.
Sometimes you don’t get to learn from other peoples mistakes so you gotta make them yourself to learn. Some people are too hard headed to think it is their own fault though.
When I would be caught by a DIY'er ,I would politely say "If you are asking me ,perhaps you shouldn't do it ."
Richard, this mentality is why i have a stronger skillset than you. By the time I'm your age I will be better than you / know more than you on every single topic if I don't already at 28. You too 'E Flanagan'
People that know what they’re doing probably work at a shop. The quote I got at a shop for this is more than the value of the vehicle. So rule #2, if the car is scrap anyway what’s the worst thing that could happen?
Master gm mechanic here. Not a good rule you'll never learn
I used the white roloc bristle disc on my heads and they were still good and flat afterwards, checked with a machinist flat edge and the thinnest 0.0015" feeler gauge I have at every spot and angle on the heads.
It would be great if you could do a video with your guy at the machine shop. Any additional details about machining the heads would be appreciated. I'm in the process of buying a 04' Legacy GT and while I think the engine in it is beyond repair, I would at least want to know what I should expect from my local machine shop should the engine be salvagable.
Can't remember if you said it in the video but does the shortblock / crankcase usually need to be machined as well?
I've done a few head gaskets before. Started on old Toyotas that didn't have over head cams. Really simple. Worked my way up to sohc then dohc motors. Haven't done a boxer motor yet. I've got a Subaru outback that is dripping oil from both heads. No coolant leaking so isn't overheating. I'm just going to put up with the drips. I'll put some cardboard down and swap it out every so often 😂. I dread the thought of pulling the motor and all that's involved. I'm not paying potentially thousands for a shop to fix what is currently just a slow oil drip. Realistically I'll probably sell it and buy another Toyota 😂
Be careful! those oil drips become internal coolant drips and the leak path can be straight from the coolant jacket to the big oil return galleys at the bottom of the engine, where you are seeing the oil drips. This is a common pathway, and I got several dozen subie head gaskets hanging on my wall of shame to instruct my customers about it! Best to find the right shop in your area, and do it once, do it right, and be done forever.
I bought in 2013 Subaru Legacy H6 engine just to avoid the head gasket issues with the 2.5L four cylinder design. Never had those graphite engine gaskets, so the problem does not exist. Now have 111,000 miles and while it burns a tiny amount of oil, no gasket problems at all. Just change the oil every 5000 miles and trouble free driving. So I find these videos interesting and just thank my knowledge of the gasket problem back in the day allowed me to avoid all the headaches of the gasket saga.
Can you sei
Hopefully you are the fortunate one that don't have to have headgaskets replaced!! Because H6 is way more time consuming than the H4 single cam, twin cam, na, are even turbo charged.
@@joel.3112 Agreed. Changing the driver's side spark plug close to the back of the box is no picnic either! Need a mirror and a u-joint socket to make it work. Now have 120,000 and still no issues and don't plan to have them either.
@@Buc_Stops_Here My solution to tight Subaru spark plugs changing headaches is NGK's Ruthenium or at least Iridium - once and done for life.
@@davidprice9815 I asked about that. Not recommended as it still wears out the engine coils if you don't change them by 90,000 miles max. To go an extra 30,000 the cost does not seem worth it.
The Subaru Gasket Kit I bought with my EJ253 short block came with MLS gaskets. This was ~3 years ago. So maybe I got lucky? Until I watched your videos, I assumed all manufactures used MLS gaskets after the late 1990's.
The funny thing is with the Chrysler 2.2/2.5, was the coolant leaking into the cylinders was never the composite HG issue for me. It was always the head cracking between the valves. Then the 2.0/2.4 was actually the HG. Thankfully that was an (relatively) cheaper/easier fix. Like the Subaru, once you use the MLS HG, and do proper prep work, the issue never returns.
I found a cheaper than full price set of new ARP studs on ebay to use on my EJ253, and have had zero issues with leakage despite the much simpler to torque process.
So if the torque procedure that Subaru has, is a bit daunting for you, it might be worth the ~$200 full price for a set of ARP studs if you aren't confident that you will get it right.
$200 is still cheaper than redoing it, and the frustration that comes with that. Just an option for the DIY'ers if you're not comfortable with the torque to yield head bolts, and Subaru's extra steps needed.
When I had my shop subarus were a very large percentage of what we worked on. We resealed rebuilt and did high performance builds consistently..one thing I started doing was cutting the heads and block to a very slightly rougher RA that very small difference seemed to completely fix the problem. I never had a single one of my head gasket repair come back with seeing some drive 150k+ miles after the repair
Before I started doing that I had a few issues...
Thanks!
Thank you!
I had my shop repl my old engine on my 2015 Forrester. The reason I waited to buy the 2015 model was told that the old head gasket series was updated to a permanent head gasket. WRONG! the same cheap junk gasket was in my orginal engine which of course failed. I had a used engine installed (the engine had 49k miles) however I know this engine has the same head gasket as the old engine(my bad) now I have 89k on my repl engine and hope that this thing stays togethere. I have serviced this car systems perfectly. I am glad to see your videos on Subaru repairs. I wish I known this before I spent $5K on the used replacement engine. Can you recommend an engine rebuilder that will "blueprint" a repl engine?
Loved to see a recommendation for proper machine work! For good MLS sealing, they need to be surfaced to a specific surface finish, which means being cut using some form of flycutter with a PCD(Poly Crystalline Diamond), CBN(Cubic Boron Nitride) or similar cutting insert.
What about the block?
@@Allen-bm6tz Same story
@@EchoSixMike most folks aren't taking the block to the machine shop so... It's a gamble the MLS will seal properly?
@@Allen-bm6tz To be honest I don't know, I've only done engines built on a stand for racing and all surfaces were machined.
@@EchoSixMike this might get me banned for saying, but maybe the Fel-pro route is the way to go? They are MLS and the coating is supposed to adhere to the surfaces to make up for the not so finished surface.
I literally just picked my 2015 outback 2.5l with 89,000 mi on it, from a head gasket repair. After watching one of your videos, I made sure Subaru put the multi layered gasket on my car.
Since my extended warranty backed out on some of the cost, I complained to SOA and they chipped in $1000.
I just hope this will be last time.
I mess around with 4 banger in line heads all the time, I have a diamond flat plate for sharpening knifes etc, I spray oven cleaner on stuff to remove crap, and if the head is aluminum and the warp is over 2,000 inch , I just rub and pass the diamond plate over it till I get less then the gasket thickness,
Big thanks! I'm pulling an EJ25D DOHC out of my old '98 Forester this weekend to do head gaskets.
A 98 Subie in MN? Hahaha
I'm not a Subaru guy, but I used to own a 1991 Chevy Corsica, which I managed to restore and get running after a blown head gasket.
Thing was, I followed the book specs, which called for 43 foot pounds on the front and 46 on the back bolts. I followed the instructions exactly.
I didn't realize until like a year and a half later that something just wasn't right. Cold weather hit and I found myself losing coolant. So I went back in and re-torqued them to the book specs, again...
After another year and a half, this new head gasket I had installed myself finally went out, so I ended up having to install yet another head gasket...
Welp, turns out the 1991 version of the Corsica had sh!tty specs which only called for a single pass head bolt torquing sequence.
The later 1992 version upgraded that to a three pass torquing sequence. When I replaced the head gasket the second time, I basically adopted the 1992 model instructions on my old 91. And FINALLY the head held tight!
Is there something to learn from my short story? Likely yes. If an old car ignorantly calls for only one pass on the head bolts, ignore that crap and do a three pass, make sure that sh!t is tight!
I replaced two 99-2000 foresters HGaskets with felpro mls and both failed prematurely 4-5 years and 40-50k miles. All procedures followed heads machined, valve guides repaired, valve seals replaced. Very upsetting as originally gaskets seeping but still great and lasted 2-3 years longer then felpro. One car had waterless coolant evans, and running no cooling system psi and lab test on coolant was good,
Talked to mr Subaru and recommended the turbo HG, wish I had known this before hand. And not so trusting of aftermarket gaskets
What means felpro? I'm sorryy ignorance
@@cristobalbarros5201 Fel-pro is a brand name that manufactures gaskets of various types.
Yep 97% of people on you tube talk absolute BS 🤣.
Your doing ok dude, keep it real. 👍
I’m on my second 2.0xt. I always change the oil every 5,000km with the Subaru SN 5w-30 oil and Subaru oil filter. Someone once said he changes the oil because it’s cheap. The Subaru oil isn’t cheap and it’s VERY important to use the Subaru oil. If your oil is cheap you’re using the wrong oil!
I know of at least two Forester owners locally who haven’t used the Subaru oil and they’ve ended up having to get new engines.
Also it’s important to change the engine belt and tensioner every 100,000km (60k miles). When you fit a new belt you MUST change the tensioner as well (the tensioner bearing starts to go, which is usually what damages the belt). When that belt goes it’s a new engine!
It’s strongly advised the belt and tensioner are Subaru parts. Most aftermarket parts are very poor quality and with the 2.0xt being a high performance engine you’d be taking a huge gamble with what is an engine critical component.
I’ve never had a head gasket go.
My Ej20x has 293k still runs perfectly oil & filter every 5000 click's.Factory head gasket still in place loving my Subi doesn't loose coolant,or leak oil burnt about 125ml after a 1500km interstate trip tight as a drum.
Great information! I know this is about the heads, but I would think a comment about a quick block inspection would be appropriate. What are the basics of block surface inspection (maybe it's a well known fact that just because heads have warped due to heating, blocks don't in TEND TO, and usually survive). Maybe you should clean the pistons/rings, treat with a lubricant, or maybe you should NOT touch them. Maybe you should pack your cylinders with a soaked rag and prep the surfaces with the side pointing downward on an engine stand, etc. Again, the point would be how to know you'll probably have a lot more life if you focus on proper restoration of the heads....
Do it Right, Do it light
Do it wrong, Do it Long...
Love it.
Meanwhile, I have an EJ20 SF5. Having Loads of Power loss during acceleration.
Checked Compression on the Plugs(OK), Changed Head Gaskets, Fuel Valves, Pump, Filter Spark Plugs,
What option do i look into.
Great video. Glad I bought white Scotch Rolocs before you published this, Amazon is gonna be all out now!
I bought oem gaskets and felpro gaskets, and they both had graphite on them. Finally bought the cometic gaskets MLS.
I used to work as an engineer for chrysler on the neon engine back in the day. the graphite gasket developed an oil leak, because the feed to the cylinder head was outside the permiter created by the headbolts. An MLS gasket was released in like '98...problem solved
Perfect timing. I’m in the middle of a head rebuild now.
Much appreciated. I have my wife's 2002 Outback Wagon with a disappearing radiator fluid issue and the oil don't look great for too long! I am thinking head gasket issues? Non-turbo car, but I understand the "not all gaskets are created the same quality." I live in West Texas. No dealer or mechanic I trust or that wants to touch it. That leaves me to fix it or trailer it somewhere a long ways away to have it fixed. Yeah for me!
2015 subaru outback 2.5. Head gaskets popped at 45,000. MLS from the factory. Don't think they did bad prep work. Camshaft replacement at 70k. All under warranty but still, not super confident in this thing
I bought the 3.6R so I don’t have to do head gaskets ever again after owning a 97 RS and a 08 2.5i, both of which needed head gaskets by the 100k~ mile mark
I get a chuckle when YT commenters say that the gaskets fail because they are always in contact with the coolant. They say that the coolant doesn't drain down like it does in the vertical 4 cylinders!
Have you seen these comments?
Yes. It boggles the mind. 😂 🤦🏻♂️
They are ID10Ts.... like other engines are not always in contact with coolant.
I got one of those comments in this video shortly after you left this. Trying to find it now. Lol
They make diesel engines with a set of pistons that stroke down (with a matching set up). I guess those mechanical minded folk forgot about the pressure needed for IC engines to work. I like that one...
Why did the company not install the upgrade head gaskets from the factory?
After using them during a valve cover gasket replacement I definitely like using plastic razor blades. They’re not as sharp as a metal blade but the risk of damage is essentially non existent.
I agree the MLS gaskets are better but they do fail. Did head gaskets on a 2011 outback non turbo. Compression ring cracked even with the coolant passage.
My ej251 block’s surface was slightly warped.. I cleaned/resurfaced the block with a straight counter slab, very fine sand paper and WD40.. and after the Heads were machined and installing MLS H/Gs, they haven’t leaked again..btw, I tested the block surface with a depth gauge and not even 1/1000” would go under the straight edge, proving the granite slab resurfacing worked! I don’t advise people to do this because you have to remove the dowels and really know what your doing, but it does work.
EJ25 DOHC. I'm confident I could do the head gasket. I'm also self aware enough not to try after researching what needs done. "A podiatrist is trained and can do it in a pinch, but I still don't recommend going to one for heart surgery."
Just want to say. The MLS OEM gaskets used on a 2010-2012 Legacy/Outback still fail no question. These years of Subaru's with the 2.5L develop internal head gasket issue very similar to the gen one 2.5L used in the 1996-1999 Legacy GT or Outback and cause extreme damage to the engine.... I have replaced short blocks over this issue many times now due to cylinder wall damage. No joke the cylinder wall at the point of the leak internally by the head gasket is rusted and pitted you can't fix rusty cylinder walls for cheap! Yes, you absolutely must get the head decks and the block surface perfect before replacing the head gaskets, but replacing the cylinder head gasket will not fix the issue. The issue is the cylinder walls themselves not being supported correctly in the block. Due to the nature of any open deck Subaru engine the cylinder walls basically "vibrates" too much causing the block deck surface to become warped. This is why you DONT see cylinder head gasket failures on any turbocharge EJ engines. They have semi-closed deck blocks that have "slight' block improvements to get the cylinders true. Subaru has known this forever and make the EJ turbo blocks the way they do for a good reason! Yes better for power and boost but MUCH less likely to have cylinder wall issue from detonation and such. The sad story is all EJ open deck motors are time bombs for head gaskets for this reason. The only fix is a block swap with MLS head gaskets from my experience.
My 2010 Subaru outback has 240k miles with original head gaskets.
I’m in the middle of pulling my heads on a 12 Outback. So your saying don’t waste my time putting those heads back on? What else do I look for? @tommiors
@TommioRS But the Turbocharged EJ205 is Open Deck. So your saying all turbocharged EJs are reliable to this Problem but at the Last sentence your saying, that all open Deck Motors are Time Bombs? Can you please explaine that, im very confused.
My 2010 Outback had HG's replaced by dealer around 215kM. Car is now 460km and HGs have failed again. Funny thing is I thought the CVT would go first on this car. Of course sales guy who sold me this car said Subaru has sorted out the HGs in my model year.
@@MrQuispamgolfer Even Hondas and Toyotas blow head gaskets sometimes, so anecdotes like these don't mean very much.
I live on an island, and the closest machinist with a Rottler CBN head surfacer is a long way away. If he is busy, it's a ferry trip to the mainland. over and back two times 4 hours each, and $40 in ferry fees. So I'm very out in a rural area, and in my own. But, since I have a aerospace machining background from the 1980's and know about RMS finishes and such. I have a Bridgeport, I bought the right tools (big, flywheel type fly cutter) to be able to surface heads in house. I'm able to hold a RMS 20 finish (or better, usually RMS 15 SAE.) The secret to that is the right feeds and speeds, a razor sharp carbide cutter with the right geometry, and a light coolant spray mist. It comes off the mill with a total warpage of .0005 (convex) . Well within specs. It would be better if the mill wasn't old, and a bit hunchbacked on the table. The thing is, every block I check has .001 to .0015" (usually .0015") concave warpage, even if it's never been overheated. So the the total warp is .0005 plus .0015 on the block, which is the maximum .002" allowed . Not great. I don't want to start out at the maximum warp allowed. (I understand some would say that .0005 convex plus .0015 concave equals .001" . You have a point. But I think it works better my way.) So I worked out a way to put an assembled shortblock engine on the Bridgeport, seal it from the swarf, level and fasten it to the machine. The block surface to be refinished is shimmed so that the least amount of material needs to be removed, (usually under .002") and get that same .0005 convex , RMS 15 surface finish on it too! . My way, there is .001 total warp, (.0005 block and .0005" head) with the warp being convex on both surfaces, which is opposite of the warp they develop in service. I think folks don't pay enough attention to the block warp. I used to work in areospace, where sometimes total tolerance working on shuttle parts (Yeah, I'm that old) would be .0002", I can accurately measure this using one of several pink granite surface plates in the shop and a good , self calibrated straight edge. MLS gaskets are intolerant of rough surfaces, scratch's of any kind and contamination of any kind. Be super careful people. It's not like the old days. Good luck. Happy wrenching. And yes, I charge a lot for this.
I put fibre gaskets on my 99 outback and drove it 10 years. this was 2008. I think its still out there pushing wind.
single edge razorblades also really good for cleaning inside of oven glass, does not scratch either.
Literally everyone I know with a Subaru(me included), and almost everyone online: my head gasket blew.
Mr Subaru: here we are with another video about the MYTH that Subaru head gaskets are always blowing.... Also, here is why they always blow.
When you have to buy an aftermarket gasket, and when the gasket you get from the dealership is faulty or prone to failure, it's still a problem.
EJ22 in my '94 never had a Head Gasket fail EVER, I sold it with 240K 7 years ago to a neighbor who still drives it.
My 94 Legacy EJ22E has 300k+ on the OE head gaskets.
The worst part about resealing my 01’ Forester S with the MLS gasket kit has been how much easier it is now to rack up speeding tickets
Will the dealer let you choose the MLS gaskets as an upgrade if they do the repair ??
Hi Mr Subaru, I really enjoyed the video. However, you wouldn't happen to have a check list of what should be done when having the HG replaced and what is the right part number for the MLS HG for naturally aspirated 2.5 series engine. It would be greatly appreciated, thanks again for all the informative videos!
However, th-cam.com/video/4AyjKgz9tKg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=_TXWdJmcgwGynsNs
Couple of questions:
Should the piston side of the engine also be resurfaced?
What brand of MLS gasket should be used for a 2004 Forester?
Glad I found this video. I was wanting to get a blob eye STI and was wondering if there was an aftermarket gasket that would fix the issue.
Have you tried by chance the Loctite 79040 “Gasket Chisel”? We use this all the time in marine applications and it will eat your skin off but it works so well! Give it a try!
Lolll that’s paint stripper...yeah it will take your skin off
might not be a good idea on al-u-min-eum......if it "eats" your skin, it'll prolly corrode that too
@@bryanford1139 works great on aluminum, use it all the time.
I love the look of the Impreza but I’ve been told time and time again that I’m going to blow a gasket. Now I know that you have to take the engine out to replace the gasket and I have no idea how much that would cost and I’d like to know what you charge
It’s like 2500
Original owner of a 2002 WRX stock EJ205 with over 238K miles. Knock on wood - no head gasket failures. Specialist said the 2.5-liter is nowhere near as reliable as the 2.0-liter in this respect. Had a 2006 Impreza 2.5i and the head gasket blew at, wait for it, 74K miles. After the quote of $1900, a letter to Subaru of America knocked that down to $800-$900 with a timing belt replacement thrown in. Leave it to the dealer to not replace the water pump, tensioners, and pulleys when everything is apart, even though I asked for that specifically. "Those parts never need replacing in our experience".
Why does Subaru paint the oil pan bolt & crush washer at both ends which makes it very difficult to remove/break the paint seal? Darn near stripped the head. Luckily, replacing with a fumoto ... Also, doesn't that black paint come off inside the oil pan and cause issues?
So glad I saw this video. I'm gonna get this thing done correctly
Thank you always appreciate your knowledge! Great advice as well. Thank you I know people with Subarus I will pass this on to them!