52:59 Important note the Kare Kano author is not on record saying she didn't like it, Yamaga said she didn't like it in an panel interview in the early 00s but he's also a known bullshitter, there is a french interview I went through on her thoughts on Kare Kano which was she let them do whatever because she knew it would never be her version and she was fine with that.
Ah, I knew there was some back and forth, hence why I said muddied, but I wasn't fully aware of it and hadn't seen the French interview. Thanks for the clarification.
@@Mumismusings yeah that's a lot of studio politics in the question Yamaga was asked also, which was something like if Kare kano would get a second season at a time when Anno was not making anime anymore or didn't plan to do tv shows again for series that was only possible for green light because of the success of Eva
1:07:50 It was not always intended as the first FMA wasn't initially planned as 51 episodes, it was supposed to be 24 episodes but expanded early on. Then, of course, Shamballa was written as a one cour series, then cut down much shorter when Brotherhood was in planning stages. So they planned it pretty early all things considered, but not always planned.
There’s so much things I want to say: but I would like to mention regarding Chainsaw Man that people never talk about which movies inspired the adaptation. What I was personally looking for was an Evil Dead 2 or Texas Chainsaw inspired anime that use film techniques to balance the horror and comedy, and it didn’t really do it for me. I also love how you mentioned the aspect ratio for manga because it’s something everyone ignores, but as a film guy, it’s something that made me interested in comics immediately, and made things stand out Now onto the juicy stuff. I think that weather changes should be made will depend on the source material. For example the higher the concept, the more changes are reasonable, because they can make the idea of the story, and explore it in a different way. This exemplified with Total Recall, where they take the concept of implanted memories, and go on a completely different direction with it. And Total Recall is considered a classic. Another advantage to adaptation is that it allows to improve on the flaws of the original. Yeah, it will probably be unlikely, just due to the fact that the source material tends to get adapted from well liked and popular series, so they represent the crème de la crème of titles in that medium. This isn’t always the case, which is where improvement to flaws shines most. Final point, is that if you deviate from the source material of a character driven great story significantly, it needs to be literally a masterpiece in order to justify that. The Shinning is probably the only one I can think of right now, but that shows how tricky this step is. I probably have more to say, but they aren’t coming to mind, so I might mention more in the comment thread.
Yes Kyon's monologue ambiguity. Seriously Kyoani, Ishihara and all the rest don't get enough praise for what they did, even if they do get praised. The talk on adaptation reminds me of the Lacanian ideas of multiple realities and choosing which to engage with, even within the same IP. The best hope would be to identify the intent and message and convey that to the audience via the tools available in the medium as effectively as possible. It's why Shakespeare in space can be just as valid as the original setting. Anyway, liked the ep. Keep it up.
Yeah, it's an interesting case study that a work could be seen as more faithful for keeping the spirit and intent of the work while not necessarily using the same elements than something taking the literal elements of said work.and mishandling it. Also the funny thing about Shakespeare is considering the potential intent that something like Romeo and Juliet could have been intended as more of a comedy piece and how that's translated to a tragedy in modern times.
Now one thing u do wanna say about fma03 Is that it was always never meant to be a faithful adaptation the director stated that the was only one or two volumes out at the time so there was no pressure to do a faithful adaptation only to focus on making their own story that would last for a full season they knew it was gonna be their own thing from the get go heck they even foreshadow original plot points early on in the series a great example being that 03 Sloth was introduced a lot earlier as liet Douglas ofc I mean no hate and I think both versions are amazing 03 has the dark tone, main cast development, And fmab has the world building and side cast development Both endings are amazing Also I mean the end of the fma03 series not the Conqueror of Shamballa movie imo it wasn't too good but its okay but still no hate and I'm sorry for interrupting
I've long heard that fans are pretty decent at discerning if something doesn't work, but their advice as to "why" it doesn't work generally isn't helpful. That being said I do think everything is adaptable, just not necessarily 1-to-1. 4-koma are especially interesting when they get the anime treatment because even if they don't have a narrative structure, they'll often be given one. Seeing what vignettes make it, become the episode focus, are turned into crucial character moments, or are used as transitions is always fascinating. When it comes to ADVs, I usually prefer the ones that just pick a route even if it's not exactly my favorite one. "Amagami SS" is truly special for how it tackles routes whilst somehow actually pulling it off.
Nice video guys! I'm of the impression that adaptations don't always have to be faithful, as long as they are good. But I do also believe that, like you said, People are protective of their first interaction with a product. So even if the adaptation is good, it can be hard to accept a change to something you love. I do agree with the fact that it would also be difficult to adapt certain 'darker shows' without changing them too. I love Gantz and would love to see a full adaptation, but there's no way they are getting away with that without some significant changes. In fact, I'm amazed by what they got away with the first time haha. By the way, what are your opinions on the English Dub of Ghost Stories? I haven't seen it, but I think that would have made an interesting addition to this debate. Considering how much was changed etc. P.s. I'm never going to forget that "Ride his baloney pony" line for as long as I live. It really stays with you that one! 😂 haha.
I've not watched the English Dub of Ghost Stories myself, but I can speak generally in regards to Dubs that take liberties, such as Mejoku, Yuuwaku, and even Digimon Adventure, that I'm not generally against dubs doing their own thing. I view them similarly to anime adaptations, we already have the original (in this case, the Japanese dub with subtitles) so I think taking liberties is generally fine. There are some I'm not a fan of, so I just choose not to watch them. Likewise, I find the dubs of like Mejoku and Yuuwaku to be funny. I get a lot of flack from Gil about Digimon Adventure, but I actually prefer the English dub. While it does ruin some emotional moments, such as the Hosoda episode's ending, with its directorial choices of needing to fill every second of dead air with some kind of dialogue, it kind of just captures this moment in time in a way that isn't really present for me in the Japanese dub. Hearing terrible Elvis impersonations and your apocalyptic bad guy complaining "Why do you get the pizza while I get the crust!" and Mimi complaining about metaphors instead of the original where she's averting her eyes from the bad guy hurting himself has a certain charm to it that I can understand people not liking, but I appreciate the attempt at doing something different. For the people who don't like that, they can stick to the Japanese dub. So like adaptations, I'd just prefer dubs make the material their own. This obviously comes from someone who doesn't watch dubs for the most part, so maybe if I took them more seriously I would have a different opinion and want them to maintain the original vision more, but from my position if they do something different with the English dub and succeed with it, I'm more likely to check it out than if it's just the same as the Japanese dub but in English where I would be hyper aware of the nuances in their performance, unlike the Japanese dub.
@@Mumismusings Fair enough. I figured you guys would have seen Ghost Stories, or at least be aware of it's notorious dub. Thus I thought it would have been a good subject for this particular episode of your podcast. But yeah, like you guys, I also haven't watched Ghost Stories (yet). From what I can tell though, they have ripped up the script of an average ghost anime and rewritten it as a super offensive comedy that people really love. There's a few videos on TH-cam about it's dub that are definitely worth checking out! 🙂 As for Anime in general, I watch 99% of my anime dubbed (sorry haha). So it's nice to not have every anime script totally ripped to shreds. But at the same time... I want the best product available, so if a few liberties need to be taken to get the translations to work, then I'm totally fine with that. From what I am told, most anime scripts have sections where the Japanese voice actors ad-lib anyway (Or they used to anyway). So even the original Japanese dub isn't 100% faithful to a script. I take it you first watched Digimon in English then? If so, that kind of sticks to the point made in your video about people's original interactions with a media being the one they love. I know several people that hate dubbed anime, but they still watch Dragon Ball Z/Super in English because that's how they've always watched it.
@@nicholaspurcell5960 I think Psy has seen Ghost Stories dubbed, I seem to recall him commenting on finding it immature or something like that, but he'd just have to speak for himself. Like I said, my answer might be different if I were in your position. I can understand wanting as true of an adaptation as possible in the dub. I am guilty of having grown up with the Digimon dub! I do prefer a lot of the dubs I watched growing up, like Trigun, Bebop, GitS SAC, etc, but for something like NGE I actually prefer the Japanese despite growing up watching the dub. It basically just translated to me being able to watch both interchangeably. It would have been interesting to cover that aspect, but I don't think any of us really considered the dubbing process as part of this discussion. I probably would have been crucified for my Digimon dub take, anyhow.
@@Mumismusings Yeah, Ghost Stories dub might be juvenile, I'm not sure. I guess it depends on your sense of humour. I was cracking up during the TH-cam video I watched, but that's just me. I just think the debate on whether dubs should be changed to that degree is interesting. It's interesting that you prefer the Japanese dub of Eva even though you grew up on the American dub. I can't stand switching once I know something a certain way. Even if shows have 2 English dubs, I can't watch a different one than the one that I'm used to haha. The new eva dub for example... It just feels wrong. Btw, I finally got around to checking out your Top 100 list on MAL (I'll do your movies list another time). It's a nice list. I think about 25 of the shows appear in my Top 100 too, although our placements are quite different (Steins Gate, Death Note are Haruhi are all in my Top 10). I also think I'm one of the only people in history that struggled with Madoka Wolf's Rain. And although I love sci-fi Texhnolyze and Ergo Proxy were way too slow for me. It was nice seeing your love for Lain, Haibane Renmei, Eva and Gurren Lagann though! 🙂
@@nicholaspurcell5960 I just don't think the English dub is good enough to hold my preference, I suppose. I enjoy Death Note and Stein's;Gate, but I can't say they do much for me outside of just having fun with the experience. I was quite vocally against Haruhi for some time, so it now being as high as it is speaks volumes about how my opinion on it has changed. Mind you, most everything on there I have pretty strong feelings for. Given my first video was on Haruhi and it's placement should say a lot about my feelings for everything above and even around it. Plenty of people struggled with Madoka Magica, I can't tell you how many debates people have started with me over it given my name/avatar makes me some sort of ambassador for the show. Wolf's Rain is of a similar place to S;G and DN, but it and Trigun both probably benefit from the nostalgia factor as well. Texhnolyze I absolutely love, it's barrier of entry and slow, brooding are just part of the charm of it for me. Ergo Proxy I had a little more trouble coming to grips with as it didn't quite fit into my aesthetic sensibilities initially (some of the naming and imagery was too on the nose, probably funny coming from an Eva fan) but I got over it and grew quite the appreciation for it.
Me here for years side-eyeing Madhouse, JC Staff and Toei respectively for how sloppily they handled the anime adaptations of Tenjho Tenge, Ikkitousen - Battle Vixens if your're fucking wrong - and Air Gear.
Hopes this podcast takes off. I dont have any friends who watch anime so i gotta keep it a secret like im still in the 90s. This is the closest i get to kinda talking about anime ive enjoyed
I'm in a similar boat, I don't have anyone in real life I talk about anime with, so I've just done my best to find and make communities to talk about the things I want to talk about for myself online.
One core anime have there own brand of problems when a second season is not confirmed they tend to stuff the season leaving no room for down time or fleshing out their concepts and the ones that avoid this can barely get through their prolog before the season end eventually not being picked for a second season. Another issue is the emergence of a three episodes rule forcing an anime to have a bombastic first episode followed by a bunch of slow boring episodes because they blew there budget early on.
52:59
Important note the Kare Kano author is not on record saying she didn't like it, Yamaga said she didn't like it in an panel interview in the early 00s but he's also a known bullshitter, there is a french interview I went through on her thoughts on Kare Kano which was she let them do whatever because she knew it would never be her version and she was fine with that.
Ah, I knew there was some back and forth, hence why I said muddied, but I wasn't fully aware of it and hadn't seen the French interview. Thanks for the clarification.
@@Mumismusings yeah that's a lot of studio politics in the question Yamaga was asked also, which was something like if Kare kano would get a second season at a time when Anno was not making anime anymore or didn't plan to do tv shows again for series that was only possible for green light because of the success of Eva
1:07:50 It was not always intended as the first FMA wasn't initially planned as 51 episodes, it was supposed to be 24 episodes but expanded early on. Then, of course, Shamballa was written as a one cour series, then cut down much shorter when Brotherhood was in planning stages. So they planned it pretty early all things considered, but not always planned.
You sure know a lot about it considering the fact FMA03 ended before you were born.
Great podcast! Really funny and engaging! 9 years ago, I saw a woman get dragged away by five men into a dark alleyway and did nothing to prevent it.
There’s so much things I want to say: but I would like to mention regarding Chainsaw Man that people never talk about which movies inspired the adaptation. What I was personally looking for was an Evil Dead 2 or Texas Chainsaw inspired anime that use film techniques to balance the horror and comedy, and it didn’t really do it for me. I also love how you mentioned the aspect ratio for manga because it’s something everyone ignores, but as a film guy, it’s something that made me interested in comics immediately, and made things stand out
Now onto the juicy stuff. I think that weather changes should be made will depend on the source material. For example the higher the concept, the more changes are reasonable, because they can make the idea of the story, and explore it in a different way. This exemplified with Total Recall, where they take the concept of implanted memories, and go on a completely different direction with it. And Total Recall is considered a classic.
Another advantage to adaptation is that it allows to improve on the flaws of the original. Yeah, it will probably be unlikely, just due to the fact that the source material tends to get adapted from well liked and popular series, so they represent the crème de la crème of titles in that medium. This isn’t always the case, which is where improvement to flaws shines most.
Final point, is that if you deviate from the source material of a character driven great story significantly, it needs to be literally a masterpiece in order to justify that. The Shinning is probably the only one I can think of right now, but that shows how tricky this step is.
I probably have more to say, but they aren’t coming to mind, so I might mention more in the comment thread.
is it just me or does mumi sound way more down under
Australia is just British Texas.
Yes Kyon's monologue ambiguity. Seriously Kyoani, Ishihara and all the rest don't get enough praise for what they did, even if they do get praised.
The talk on adaptation reminds me of the Lacanian ideas of multiple realities and choosing which to engage with, even within the same IP.
The best hope would be to identify the intent and message and convey that to the audience via the tools available in the medium as effectively as possible. It's why Shakespeare in space can be just as valid as the original setting.
Anyway, liked the ep. Keep it up.
Yeah, it's an interesting case study that a work could be seen as more faithful for keeping the spirit and intent of the work while not necessarily using the same elements than something taking the literal elements of said work.and mishandling it.
Also the funny thing about Shakespeare is considering the potential intent that something like Romeo and Juliet could have been intended as more of a comedy piece and how that's translated to a tragedy in modern times.
Now one thing u do wanna say about fma03 Is that it was always never meant to be a faithful adaptation the director stated that the was only one or two volumes out at the time so there was no pressure to do a faithful adaptation only to focus on making their own story that would last for a full season they knew it was gonna be their own thing from the get go heck they even foreshadow original plot points early on in the series a great example being that 03
Sloth was introduced a lot earlier as liet Douglas ofc I mean no hate and I think both versions are amazing
03 has the dark tone, main cast development,
And fmab has the world building and side cast development
Both endings are amazing Also
I mean the end of the fma03 series not the Conqueror of Shamballa movie imo it wasn't too good but its okay but still no hate and I'm sorry for interrupting
I've long heard that fans are pretty decent at discerning if something doesn't work, but their advice as to "why" it doesn't work generally isn't helpful. That being said I do think everything is adaptable, just not necessarily 1-to-1.
4-koma are especially interesting when they get the anime treatment because even if they don't have a narrative structure, they'll often be given one. Seeing what vignettes make it, become the episode focus, are turned into crucial character moments, or are used as transitions is always fascinating.
When it comes to ADVs, I usually prefer the ones that just pick a route even if it's not exactly my favorite one. "Amagami SS" is truly special for how it tackles routes whilst somehow actually pulling it off.
Set sail for One Piece
Wanna join my crew, The Weeb Crew? - Luffy in the Netflix Adaptation, probably.
Nice video guys!
I'm of the impression that adaptations don't always have to be faithful, as long as they are good. But I do also believe that, like you said, People are protective of their first interaction with a product. So even if the adaptation is good, it can be hard to accept a change to something you love.
I do agree with the fact that it would also be difficult to adapt certain 'darker shows' without changing them too. I love Gantz and would love to see a full adaptation, but there's no way they are getting away with that without some significant changes. In fact, I'm amazed by what they got away with the first time haha.
By the way, what are your opinions on the English Dub of Ghost Stories? I haven't seen it, but I think that would have made an interesting addition to this debate. Considering how much was changed etc.
P.s. I'm never going to forget that "Ride his baloney pony" line for as long as I live. It really stays with you that one! 😂 haha.
I've not watched the English Dub of Ghost Stories myself, but I can speak generally in regards to Dubs that take liberties, such as Mejoku, Yuuwaku, and even Digimon Adventure, that I'm not generally against dubs doing their own thing. I view them similarly to anime adaptations, we already have the original (in this case, the Japanese dub with subtitles) so I think taking liberties is generally fine. There are some I'm not a fan of, so I just choose not to watch them. Likewise, I find the dubs of like Mejoku and Yuuwaku to be funny.
I get a lot of flack from Gil about Digimon Adventure, but I actually prefer the English dub. While it does ruin some emotional moments, such as the Hosoda episode's ending, with its directorial choices of needing to fill every second of dead air with some kind of dialogue, it kind of just captures this moment in time in a way that isn't really present for me in the Japanese dub. Hearing terrible Elvis impersonations and your apocalyptic bad guy complaining "Why do you get the pizza while I get the crust!" and Mimi complaining about metaphors instead of the original where she's averting her eyes from the bad guy hurting himself has a certain charm to it that I can understand people not liking, but I appreciate the attempt at doing something different. For the people who don't like that, they can stick to the Japanese dub.
So like adaptations, I'd just prefer dubs make the material their own. This obviously comes from someone who doesn't watch dubs for the most part, so maybe if I took them more seriously I would have a different opinion and want them to maintain the original vision more, but from my position if they do something different with the English dub and succeed with it, I'm more likely to check it out than if it's just the same as the Japanese dub but in English where I would be hyper aware of the nuances in their performance, unlike the Japanese dub.
@@Mumismusings Fair enough. I figured you guys would have seen Ghost Stories, or at least be aware of it's notorious dub. Thus I thought it would have been a good subject for this particular episode of your podcast.
But yeah, like you guys, I also haven't watched Ghost Stories (yet). From what I can tell though, they have ripped up the script of an average ghost anime and rewritten it as a super offensive comedy that people really love. There's a few videos on TH-cam about it's dub that are definitely worth checking out! 🙂
As for Anime in general, I watch 99% of my anime dubbed (sorry haha). So it's nice to not have every anime script totally ripped to shreds. But at the same time... I want the best product available, so if a few liberties need to be taken to get the translations to work, then I'm totally fine with that.
From what I am told, most anime scripts have sections where the Japanese voice actors ad-lib anyway (Or they used to anyway). So even the original Japanese dub isn't 100% faithful to a script.
I take it you first watched Digimon in English then? If so, that kind of sticks to the point made in your video about people's original interactions with a media being the one they love. I know several people that hate dubbed anime, but they still watch Dragon Ball Z/Super in English because that's how they've always watched it.
@@nicholaspurcell5960 I think Psy has seen Ghost Stories dubbed, I seem to recall him commenting on finding it immature or something like that, but he'd just have to speak for himself.
Like I said, my answer might be different if I were in your position. I can understand wanting as true of an adaptation as possible in the dub.
I am guilty of having grown up with the Digimon dub! I do prefer a lot of the dubs I watched growing up, like Trigun, Bebop, GitS SAC, etc, but for something like NGE I actually prefer the Japanese despite growing up watching the dub. It basically just translated to me being able to watch both interchangeably.
It would have been interesting to cover that aspect, but I don't think any of us really considered the dubbing process as part of this discussion. I probably would have been crucified for my Digimon dub take, anyhow.
@@Mumismusings Yeah, Ghost Stories dub might be juvenile, I'm not sure. I guess it depends on your sense of humour. I was cracking up during the TH-cam video I watched, but that's just me. I just think the debate on whether dubs should be changed to that degree is interesting.
It's interesting that you prefer the Japanese dub of Eva even though you grew up on the American dub. I can't stand switching once I know something a certain way. Even if shows have 2 English dubs, I can't watch a different one than the one that I'm used to haha. The new eva dub for example... It just feels wrong.
Btw, I finally got around to checking out your Top 100 list on MAL (I'll do your movies list another time). It's a nice list. I think about 25 of the shows appear in my Top 100 too, although our placements are quite different (Steins Gate, Death Note are Haruhi are all in my Top 10). I also think I'm one of the only people in history that struggled with Madoka Wolf's Rain. And although I love sci-fi Texhnolyze and Ergo Proxy were way too slow for me.
It was nice seeing your love for Lain, Haibane Renmei, Eva and Gurren Lagann though! 🙂
@@nicholaspurcell5960 I just don't think the English dub is good enough to hold my preference, I suppose.
I enjoy Death Note and Stein's;Gate, but I can't say they do much for me outside of just having fun with the experience. I was quite vocally against Haruhi for some time, so it now being as high as it is speaks volumes about how my opinion on it has changed. Mind you, most everything on there I have pretty strong feelings for. Given my first video was on Haruhi and it's placement should say a lot about my feelings for everything above and even around it.
Plenty of people struggled with Madoka Magica, I can't tell you how many debates people have started with me over it given my name/avatar makes me some sort of ambassador for the show. Wolf's Rain is of a similar place to S;G and DN, but it and Trigun both probably benefit from the nostalgia factor as well.
Texhnolyze I absolutely love, it's barrier of entry and slow, brooding are just part of the charm of it for me. Ergo Proxy I had a little more trouble coming to grips with as it didn't quite fit into my aesthetic sensibilities initially (some of the naming and imagery was too on the nose, probably funny coming from an Eva fan) but I got over it and grew quite the appreciation for it.
For great justice.
You have no chance to survive, make your time.
Me here for years side-eyeing Madhouse, JC Staff and Toei respectively for how sloppily they handled the anime adaptations of Tenjho Tenge, Ikkitousen - Battle Vixens if your're fucking wrong - and Air Gear.
The adaptation above all adaptations.
POP TEAM EPIC.
And you can't talk about it because Popuko and Pipimi will come and beat the shit out of yo--...
Hopes this podcast takes off. I dont have any friends who watch anime so i gotta keep it a secret like im still in the 90s. This is the closest i get to kinda talking about anime ive enjoyed
I'm in a similar boat, I don't have anyone in real life I talk about anime with, so I've just done my best to find and make communities to talk about the things I want to talk about for myself online.
One core anime have there own brand of problems when a second season is not confirmed they tend to stuff the season leaving no room for down time or fleshing out their concepts and the ones that avoid this can barely get through their prolog before the season end eventually not being picked for a second season. Another issue is the emergence of a three episodes rule forcing an anime to have a bombastic first episode followed by a bunch of slow boring episodes because they blew there budget early on.
I wouldn't mind being on your podcast.
Glad to hear summit of the god being mentioned barely anyone talks about which is a shame since it is a well made movie.
You'd love our video on it then if it ever comes out.