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Hey Henry, are your other Nebula videos going to be released on TH-cam at any point? I don't want to sound stingy, but I won't lie and say that I don't like free stuff😂
I actually liked having multiple themes. I don't know. It felt more like real world - putting emphasis on the details/process. I feel that Nolan adopted it throughout his other newer movies. Take Tenet - people don't like it that much. I like it. I think it's the same reason. It feels real. A complex system with multiple stakeholders. I don't mind that it's not about character development.
@@lorenzogarciaduran5233 he said that this video was going to get released on the YT Release of Themes. He will make most of those videos exclusive to us.
@@xxtradamxx You can totally have multiple themes at the same time. Arcane is a story that pulls it off. But that doesn't mean you've got free licence to not give each them its due exploration. Writing with multiple themes is actually a really interesting topic. I might do a video on it.
The Talia twist, the spine surgery/ knee strap, the cops rushing head on to thugs with machine guns and the fight choreography didn’t make sense to me.
Yeah, the knee thing always annoyed me. They bring it up at the beginning and then it never matters again. The other stuff was also a problem, but that annoyed me the most.
I love this movie, but I remember being in the theater during the scene in the football stadium. The combination of the microphone and Banes mask made it so unintelligible that everyone died laughing. I know they fixed it later on, but I just remember like for a solid minute everyone just laughing confused at the impossible muttering
Marion Cotillard has said she was horrified they used that take. Apparently she gave them much better takes to work with. Given her other acting roles, I'm inclined to believe she can die more convincingly than that
I'm still sent by *_"Gruhhhhhhghhhhhhh_* _where'szatriggermannnnnnn wher'zatriggerman_ *_wher'zewher'zitwher'za'trg'ggermannnnn"_* [punch punch punch punch punch punch]
@@DoubleADwarfMan, Bale really flanderised his own Batman voice. It started kinda raspy and just later became unrecognizable because he was running out of breath doing it.
The problem with The Dark Knight Rises is, it’s not good enough. It’s better than most things, it’s a Christopher Nolan film of course it is, but it’s not up to his standards, & he’s only got himself to blame, he set the bar so high with Batman Begins & The Dark Knight. You can tell Nolan’s heart wasn’t with this one, & I can understand why, you lost the person that made The Dark Knight the phenomenon that it was, & was clearly going to be a big part of the next film.
I've always felt this way. Honestly...the way TDK was left off, I think Dent was supposed to be the primary villain in the third (I mean come on, the entire third act is basically Dent's origin story as a villain) entry with Joker also still having a key role.
I think aesthetically, it's good. But substantially, it is quite shitty. The story is unbelievably silly and contrived, the dialog is hilariously bad at times, the pacing is off, the plot holes are endless, the ending is great until it comes off as cowardly (like really, we're adults here. Batman can die). Worst of all, thematically, it's all over the place. I think it's a legitimately bad movie.
What exactly do you mean by "heart wasnt in it"? Nolan has never once given off that impression at all when talking about Rises. He talks about how he thinks its underrated, how Hardys Bane has yet to be fully appreciated and how the airplane sequence in the beginning is his favorite sequence to have filmed. He absolutely does not give off the impression that he made it with the mindset of "Fine heres your third Batman movie, now leave me alone".
22:00 Bane: *_"And, as you can see here, the emergence of high pressure winds will bring about a 50% increase of nuclear fallout. Back to you, Sarah."_*
I mean really Nolan had plans to use Joker in the 3rd movie but after Heath’s passing he kinda just lost interest in doing the 3rd movie. He only made it so he could Interstellar. Nolan kinda just coasted and rushed the film so he could go ahead and make Interstellar the movie he actually wanted to make.
This is bullshit through and through. Nolan had zero plans to use the clown after the Dark Knight. He didnt even come up with the story for Rises until well after he had finished The Dark Knight. Joker already had an entire movie as the main villain. What more do you need from him?
I wrote a dystopian book recently too and and one of the biggest critiques (that was of substance), is that there was too much going on. They also said there was a lack of worldbuilding and not long enough, so I thought writing it longer with more exposition expanding on each theme would fix it. However I think I realized that being longer and explaining more won't fix underlying issues. I have more ideas for novels. Thinking of doing that.
5:51 somehow the resolution to their second fight is even worse than you say here. Someone in the prison told Bruce that Bane’s mask suppresses his ongoing pain, so Batman figures out to punch the mask a bunch until it falls apart. Just a shade more sophisticated than him reaching into his utility belt for his new anti-Bane spray.
Yeah, and it totally doesn't work because he could've just thought to do that in the first fight. You're telling me the mask with all the tubes and shit isn't just for show, and feeds him oxycontin gas? World's greatest detective!
Yeah I was gonna say he should mention that, because it is the major point of emphasis in that scene, but it is an issue on its own. Punching the guy’s mask that helps him breathe probably should’ve been your first tactic lol. This wasn’t some Batman “prep time” moment. It was just Batman being an idiot and needing to be told the obvious.
But he didn't punch the mask until it fell apart, he used the blades on the gauntlet to cut the tubes on Bane's mask. After 12 years, apparently people still miss this obvious detail.
@@windowsVDthe blades where already there in the first fight, weren’t they? He really should have done something, *anything* to the mask since the start. I’m also really pissed they adapted out the venom Bane uses
Wow, I never thought that anyone would agree with me when I say Batman Begins is at least better than Rises... Agreed heavily with the critique... thank you!
@@lennynero635 me too! I love Dark Knight, but I think Batman Begins has the most tightly written story and best structure and pacing. So on a technical level, at least, it holds more water, even though Dark Knight is generally more thematically striking. And, of course, has Heath Ledger's performance.
Batman begins was such a great movie. The whole sequence of bruce becoming batman, the training the montages, everything was so well done and I enjoyed every bit of it
The scene you proposed, of Bane saying "and a man's wealth is enough of a reason for his death" is excellent. Bane was never revealed to have a desire for chaos, just an understanding of how to use it. I think one real problem is that they tried shoehorning in Scarecrow, itself not an issue because they didn't waste time explaining who he was, but that being said, if Striver had been the judge, it would have allowed for the possibility of using him as the 'rich victim' and streamlined the movie a little. That being said, I think they were trying to make the Miranda reveal more impressive by saying "Bane is a footsoldier, she's actually evil." Bane's death: The meaning was supposed to be Catwoman's redemption, who betrayed Batman when he fights Bane, being redeemed, while not changing her core character (she's completely unfazed by killing Bane) Not done that well, mind you (which I find a little insulting to my "age-appropriate celebrity crush.") Batman learning a lesson: I believe the idea was that he punches Bane in the mask, which could have been treated as more significant. The theme of masks (Catwoman, Scarecrow, Robin) is a fairly prominent theme. Probably could have been the core theme, considering it's not-Jokery (Joker's makeup is not about concealment). The pit is also about concealing people's suffering from the world while still perpetuating it. In any case, he's supposed to have learned that kind of fearlessness - being unafraid of the violence required to take down someone like Bane, which involves crippling him in a brutal fashion. It's also worth mentioning that the mob, one of the recurring antagonists, is generally seen as anti-mask, a nice contrast.
If I was making Batman films, I'd have the 3rd Batman movie be the story of Arkham Asylum with an underlying mystery of who let out all the villains. Then when Bruce goes home, he is confronted with a man that had been working at Wayne Manor and it is revealed to be Bane. Bane fights Bruce and breaks his back. Leaving the film on a sort of cliffhanger.
I so craved the fight to be in the batcave (possibly Alfred gets injured/dies), because the trailers led us to believe it would. Instead he lures him to the sewer, which is far less personal and which we had already seen two weeks previously in The Amazing Spider-Man.
I like your take but what I like about Gotham both in Batman comics and those first two movies is how it shows that even if the city is rotten and corrupt it is worth saving because humanity still finds a way to flourish there. Nolan's Bane think it deserves to die because it's irredeemable, I think Batman's argument shouldn't be that "I can fix it" but that the people who live there deserve a chance. Gotham always have been full of good people fighting for what's right, even with everything against them and that is a valuable message.
Honestly even a few of the rogues, like Ivy, are mostly good people that broke down due to Gotham being so terrible but there’s still change to redeem them. That being said… comic Gotham and dark knight trilogy Gotham are not really the same. To paraphrase OSP, it’s very clear that Nolan wanted to make Mafia movies that happened to feature Batman, not really Batman movies.
I do understand your points, and I agree with you, but it's my favorite one of the three. The main theme for me was redemption. Bruce had given up his life, alive but not living. Then with Bane he sees a way to die in glory, per Alfred's warning. When Bane doesn't kill him, he wants revenge. Yet until he chooses to live and do what he can, freeing the prison, does he have the strength to live for Gotham. That's why he is able to defeat Bane. Remember, when Bane saw the burning bat on the bridge, he couldn't believe it. Batman is the Christ figure and dies to redeem Bruce to live with Selina.
Dark night rises is my favorite of the three as well. Also many of the critiques given are rather shallow, even here. Why didn't bane just set off the bomb, because Talia wanted to prove her father right in thay Gotham was beyond redemption. Bruce magic teleports, not if you're paying attention to the timer, it took him weeks to get back. The change that Bruce needed to beat bane, the second time Bruce wanted to live.
@@hitandruncommentorshallow? How are logical points and arguments shallow? Just watch the movie and you will see how incredibly bad it is, writing wise
@@Exel3ncethey were executed in the film. At the beginning Bruce is on a downward trajectory. He lost the love of his life and he blames himself. He hangs up the cape because he used Batman as a scapegoat to clear Harvey’s name. He lost his fight and will to live and after bane breaks him, he is at his lowest. The rest of the movie is his redemption arc. Like that was already in the movie so this whole video is just nitpicky and kinda shitty tbh. It doesn’t improve the story.
Personally, I'd even prefer it over a lot of the old MCU films. I love how gritty the Dark Knight trilogy feels, it feels a lot more alive than any MCU film I can remember watching.
@@finnjay6149 TDKR is the worst of the three Nolan Batman movies but pretty much better than anything Marvel has ever put out (Maybe with the exception of the very first Iron Man).
I didn't mind about plot holes. Rises is so "over the top" it muddies the essence of the movie. I remember a stadium collapsing, people being sentenced to walk on ice, Bane overpowering Batman near water, a poor twist as to who's the real villain, but I'd be in a pickle if I was asked to connect these bits together. I remember what the Joker intended to prove with the boats scene but I don't remember what Bane intended to establish while I watched the Dark Knight long long ago.
The worst thing is, despite all of this crazy stuff happening in the movie, TDKR is honestly kinda boring. It did not need to be 2hs40mins long, and I do not think that focusing so much on the cop character was a good idea. It's a batman movie, I want to see Batman do cool stuff.
if u watch the end fight, bane kinda makes the same mistake where he fights with nothing held back, which is why he loses amazing video tho ur improvements made the movie better
I think also Bane is carrying out Talia's desire for revenge against Batman/Bruce. Why else supply him with a TV that lets him see all of Bane's actions? (And yeah I hate the Talia twist, but it always seemed to be why Bane does all of the show before the big boom)
@@Mech-Might I get why he chose that route, but it also undermines Bane's own motives to just acting out of love for Talia. Closer Look's version at least shows that Bane shares the beliefs of Ra's, but also has his own ideas and approach to it, and makes him a better threat to Batman
The motivations still don't make sense despite the explanation. There's no point in giving people hope if you're just going to atomize them anyway. It's just an extra step that doesn't accomplish anything but to jeopardize your own plans.
@@Hayden_Lummus Oh I agree. I don't believe Bane acting out Talia's goals is a good way to write him. I was just explaining the way I talked myself into accepting his choice to torture the city rather than blow it up, given the information that is in the film. There are many changes I would make to this film if I was given reigns to re-write it. lol!
Firstly, I want to appreciate the effort and analysis you put in the video. I am a strong defender of Dark Knight Rises and I am going to state why I disagree with you on some of these points but I will admit, I do agree with a lot of your criticisms and rewrites on the movie. 1) Why Bane doesn't destroy Gotham immediately ? - He literally said it while trapping Bruce in the prison, he wants Gotham to feel a glimmer of hope before destroying them. 2) How Bane and Batman are polar opposites - Bane takes the entire city hostage threatening to destroy it but also giving people a glimmer of false hope to make them truly suffer which is in a way the opposite of Batman, he symbolizes hope, triumph, and rebirth. 3) How Batman manages to defeat Bane - In their first confrontation, Batman is unable to fight Bane because of lack of fear. He didn't fear death at that time but he regained that after jumping without the rope. You can see in their second confrontation, Batman has faster reflexes and avoids Bane's punches because of the adrenaline rushing through his veins, because of the fear of death. 4) Themes - I don't think the themes of resilience and hope were surface level, they were pretty deeply resonating and it inspired me how fear can sometimes be a great motivator. I also think Rises carry-forwards some of what Joker said. We see how the public shuns Batman because of Harvey's death and the unrest after Bane taking Gotham hostage shows his "civilized people will eat each other" ideology. However, I do agree that there are a lot of subplots that are just there for plot reasons and do not embody the themes. 5) Your Rewrite - To be honest, your ideas sound fascinating and I would have loved some of them to be included in the movie but my problem is that the stuff about "social experiment" and the police leaving Gotham and later joining it feel derivative of the ideas of the Dark Knight. Bane's plans in the rewrite feel very similar to Heath Ledger's Joker. Bane is mostly driven by personal vendetta. He wants Gotham to suffer like he did. "Film Theorists" did a great video analyzing how The Joker actually saved Gotham by getting rid of organized crime and replacing an alcoholic ineffective commissioner with an incorruptible Jim Gordon and for 8 years, peace in Gotham was maintained. However, Bane still wants the people of Gotham to feel the despair and suffering he did. I do think it is the weakest of the bunch and for me and a lot of people, the first act was pretty frustrating but the movie found its footing after that. But overall, I think its a great movie. I also have a lot of sympathy for the filmmakers because they managed to make it a satisfying conclusion to the franchise despite Heath Ledger's passing. The Dark Knight is a really hard act to follow and despite all these hurdles, Nolan still managed to make it a thrilling conclusion.
Completely agree with you. I do think that The Closer Look sometimes has found a narrative for his more recent videos and is then too obsessed with his ideas and doesn't analyze certain parts of movies good enough. He did it with a video a year ago which he has deleted since, where people didn't agree with him at all.
But if the script of the movie in itself is beyond awful, what does it matter? The film is so hilariously silly in its narrative that one shouldn't even see the good parts cause there is very little@@l.bakker7563
Similar thoughts here. He criticizes the climax for missing the opportunity to have a role reversal of Bane "fighting like a younger man" as he edits in the moment of Bane doing EXACTLY that as he loses his cool and starts punching the pillar. Kind of a mind boggling moment in this essay. While I disagree with him that Rises has no theme, I do agree with his broader point that Rises isn't as bound or laser focused on its theme as The Dark Knight, and thus it doesn't quite resonate as well as its predecessor. I do completely agree with him that the movie should have committed to making the climax focused on the personal rivalry between Batman and Bane instead of sidelining Bane in favor of Talia. It would have hammered home the core themes a lot better. However, I think a lot of his individual ideas in his rewrites are either repetitive or contradict the ending of TDK. His entire idea about Batman still being active in bringing in criminals at the start of the story and then being betrayed by the police seems to completely ignore the fact that Batman sacrificed his reputation and became a wanted fugitive at the end of TDK. Putting so much emphasis on the paranoia of whether the police can be trusted feels highly repetitious by the third film, and I liked that the film largely moved away to showcase something different like class corruption. Not to mention most of his pitch is essentially a socio-political crime thriller where the main conflict is really between Bane and the police that features almost zero Bruce Wayne or Batman, and it's honestly way more convoluted and bloated than the film that we got. I can't imagine actually trying to adapt these ideas into one Batman film. I think you’d need almost an entire miniseries to make these ideas work. Furthermore, his idea of having Bane give the police an ultimatum to prove that the system can redeemed under the threat of nuclear annihilation only to have the story still end with the police overthrowing Bane doesn’t really prove that system is ethically redeemable. It simply proves that the system is willing to fight and temporarily achieve unity to survive, so Bane’s ideology isn’t proven wrong in this rewrite. Having Bane be more of a false ideologue in the original film who was in reality a demagogue manipulating existing tensions to his own ends worked better with the climax since it meant that Bane didn’t necessarily have to be proven wrong as his goal wasn’t about proving a point unlike in this rewrite. Even though he said that he was trying to avoid making his ideas come across as "fan-fiction", I think they still kind of fell victim to it. Overall, I agree at least to some extent with many of his broader points. But a good chunk of his individual points and ideas to fix the movie don't really work for me.
@@windowsVD Yeah, I agree with a lot of your points. Having Batman still fighting against crime contradicts the ending of TDK. I recommend watching "The Film Theorists" video on how Joker saved Gotham if you haven't seen it already. He got Gotham rid of organized crime, several corrupt officials, and replaced an ineffective commissioner Loeb with an incorruptible and effective Jim Gordon. So there was no need for any vigilante until Bane shows up. The rewrite version of Bane felt very similar to Heath Ledger's Joker. They are both different in their goals. Joker wanted to prove that people are inherently bad deep down and maybe we can also compare Riddler from Matt Reeves's batman where he wants to expose or "unmask" the dark truths of Gotham. Basically, both these villains wanted to prove a point. On the other hand, Bane is a terrorist hellbent on revenge. He wants the citizens of Gotham to suffer like he did in the pit and he also wants them to feel a glimmer of hope to further torture them. He has no intentions of validating any ideology. I haven't read any of the comics. My interpretation is based on the movies I have seen. I don't think Rises was about characters arguing different ideologies but more about the theme of overcoming your past failures and facing current challenges with resilience.
Bane: "Do your work." Bomb scientist: (removes his jacket) ... We cut away for a few short minutes, then practically smash cut to: "It is done. This is now a four megaton nuclear bomb." Some of this dialogue insults the audience. Either it was placeholder dialogue that was left in the movie or someone wrote backwards from a moment they needed to happen. Another example is when the little Wall Street fellow says " you're pure evil" to Bane's villain speech. Somebody just wanted Bane to say "I am necessary evil."
Awesome, thank you. 1. I learned more about themes. 2. I learned more about the theme of The Dark Knight 3. ... and the explanation of the theme teached me something about life. 4. And I really like your theme oriented variation of Dark Knight Rises. I really would like to see it in cinema :-) I really like your content and watch it to improve my skills as rpg game master.
I immediately start laughing when the real villain of the movie is Talia Al Ghul and she dies inside of a vehicle. What a pathetic way to waste a villain, right here.
The scene where the entire police force is sent into an underground tunnel and end up getting trapped there, spending possibly months in there only to be freed later on and they all appear as if they were only trapped inside for only a few minutes was ridiculous. They all emerge with clean clothes and are all clean shaven, while Bruce Wayne grew a beard and let his hair grow long the whole time he was away.
What's so frustrating about the "you fight like a young man with nothing held back" is that is EXACTLY what Bane does in the climactic fight when he's screaming and whaling on Batman against that pillar.
I’m not sure why that’s “frustrating” when it’s precisely the point. It’s more odd that The Closer Look literally edited in the moment that showed the role reversal that he claimed was missing.
"Why didn't Bane set the nuke off and occupy Gotham?" So were you just not paying attention when Bane laid out to Bruce in the prison exactly why he wasn't going to Destroy Gotham immediately? Come on dude it doesn't take that much effort to pay attention to a film.
I guess there's... something going on, with Batman and Bane, in that they're both in pain but are numbed, and neither care about living all that much, but then... when Batman returns to Gotham, he's... embraced his pain and his fear and... hm, no, that doesn't work.
Another great video! Would you consider taking a look at Groundhog Day and the way its script works so well? After watching a ton of these videos on writing, I look at older movies to see how it was done. With Groundhog, the characters are setup before the intro credits are done. At about the twenty minute mark, the first repeated day happens. It’s amazing how much fluff is absent.
This movie is better than 99% movies. As awesome as Begins, not quite as The Joker one. Envious kills inside man and make people end up ++zükíng++ in life! Do something about it.
Personally, I think this film is just as good as The Dark Knight, it's just that the two don't have the same qualities. Tdk stands out for its unpredictable script, its cold, nihilistic atmosphere and its fascinating, terrifying villain, whereas tdkr stands out for its scope, its emotional side, its symbolism and its direction (nolan even manages to give us some very good hand-to-hand combat, which is a big improvement on tdk). And the film remains devilishly interesting in terms of its themes. At the end of tdk, the joker defeated batman for control of gotham's soul, succeeding in corrupting the white knight, harvey dent. But Batman sacrificed himself and decided to invent a lie to cover up his two-faced actions. And it's on this thematic basis that tdkr builds: all the characters, and even Gotham in general, are trapped in the lie, in a state of apathy and ignorance of the problems (bruce wayne playing dead in his mansion and unwilling to rebuild his life so as not to have to face Rachel's grief ; Gordon, who perpetuates the lie about Harvey Dent and doesn't have the courage to reveal the truth; Selina Kyle, who expects a savior to solve these problems when in fact that savior is a monster; and the Gotham authorities, who won't admit to the disappearance of orphans and the presence of Bane in the sewers).Even the political themes are consistent with this message.We have social inequalities which are a problem that the elites neglect, and populism whose danger is not perceived until it's too late.We can believe as a spectator that the return of Batman is going to be the solution to all this but that is not the case: it is only a way for Bruce to escape these traumas by dying fighting Bane and that doesn't even prevent the villain's plans (Batman even facilitates them during the stock market raid). It will therefore be necessary to break everything (the American dream of unity during the stadium scene, the institutions with the burial of the police, the Dent Act with the reading of Gordon's real speech, Selina Kyle's dream of escape, the back and the mind of Bruce) so that the characters finally act (Bruce regains a taste for life, Selina becomes his own heroine, the police stop Bane's army and Gordon deactivates the bomb). Even Bruce's retirement is the end of a lie since Batman was an illusion meant to scare criminals. All the characters are finally happy because peace is finally coming, real peace and not the charade that we saw at the beginning of the film.
I've got to say, i truly loved your idea for rewriting the Dark Knight Rises, it made the plot of the movie so much better. The only thing is i wouldn't have added that Bane respected Batman, i don't think it was necessary and i think Bane just believing in Ra's ideology was more than enough.
Your question about Bane's bomb plan has a literal in-movie explanation. It's not just about destroying Gotham, it's about torturing Batman by forcing himself to watch the city tear itself apart before being destroyed, proving that he was wrong about the people being good. That's not a plot hole, that's part of the motivation. It doesn't matter if the plan makes sense from a purely functional perspective. People don't always do things that make sense.
I don't buy that though, that's a line of dialogue excusing something Nolan needs to happen in order to keep the city alive for months. How could Bane be sure they get cable satellite tv in the prison? How would they? It's still dumb. It would torture Batman MORE to not know the fate of his city while he's trapped in there, and blow it immediately just in case he gets out. Instead, all Bane did was give him motivation to escape- and then acts surprised he did. Take away everything Brucey had to live for while he rots in there, now THAT's true despair!
@@brentandrew2419 It doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the character thinks. There's this theory I ascribe to called Tangible Details. See, storytelling is a complex art, much like being a mechanic. Those who don't actually understand storytelling will still be able to tell that something in the story isn't working for them, just as you can tell when your car isn't working, but that doesn't mean you understand why it's not working. Since nature abhors a vacuum, people will fill in their own reasons as to why a story isn't working and these ideas can often be just as silly as when a person with no knowledge of cars tries to explain to a mechanic what's wrong with theirs. The real problem with Dark Knight Rises is that it's structured poorly. There's good build-up to the first encounter with Bane, but after that, the story loses any sense of narrative urgency. The bomb threat fails to provide it because the film does a bad job of giving you a sense of when it goes off and it takes so long for them to get around to actually doing anything about it. Also it's almost always bad to have a twist villain reveal themselves at the end of the story because you don't get a chance to know them as a villain, so as a result they have no sense of impact on the story. Everything else that people latch onto is just a tangible detail people grasp to try to explain why they think the story isn't going anywhere. If the story were better structured, you wouldn't care, or even notice these "plot holes" because you'd be enjoying the movie instead. This is also why people never complain about bad effects in good movies, even when the effect totally fails to sell itself (like the stop motion on the gargoyles in the original Ghostbusters).
I would agree with the idea of your fix, with one big change: use Two-Face (primarily) instead of Bane. Maybe Bane could work silently in the background. Could even "fix" the ending of Dark Knight by instead of being dead, that only his back was broken (to be fair, Batman walks away from a fall of the same height, plus armor), like Batman's is in this one, and Bane helps him heal while he teaches his philosophies to him. With Two-Face's personal experiences of the system failing him (ie the cops failing to save Rachel), and the setup at the end of Dark Knight, he has every reason to believe and prove Gotham's systems failed. So him vs Batman would be a great dichotomy. Could even enhance that redemption arc by Batman convincing Two-Face at the end to save the city, but Bane's like, "Nah, I was going to destroy it all anyway." Then it's those two against Bane. Bane dies thanks to both of them, Batman retires, Two-Face rules the city. (now I know that would greatly depart from source material, but Nolan hasn't been one to really follow it anyway) The only downside is that this redemption theme is partially done in previous movies. It's more of a series theme, to be honest. Without enough hard-earned exploration, audiences may feel, "Didn't we already have this theme before?"
It just kinda feels like it’s going through the motions, hard to describe. It’s like there’s nothing super wrong with it, but there’s no moment I really wanna ever go back to besides the plane at the start.
Christopher Nolan was hesitant about returning to the series for a third film, but agreed after developing a story with his brother and David Goyer that he felt would conclude the series on a satisfactory note.
Bane and Talia's motivations are to torture Bruce and the population of Gotham before they're destroyed. The knee brace is fine except, he didn't have to kick the bricks off of the wall. It's easy for Bruce to reach Gotham, he is world famous and many people from around the world would help him with food, clothes, vehicles, expecting money in return. He then could sneak into Gotham through a secret passage. Bruce finding Selina in the precise spot she's in is not good tho. The police plot could've been handled better, maybe a few hundred men go into the sewers, the rest are captured or straight up executed on the streets. It's fine for Selina to kill Bane at the end, Batman already defeated him . Talia's death scene is really bad. Overall Bane's presence and the shaping of the full circle of Bruce's story (from falling in the well to escaping The Pit is enough for me to love this movie. Also Bane sounds like Vader when he says "and you betrayed us" so that gives you 100 cinema wins.
I would argue the notion is "Victory has defeated you" applies to most people - the police chief has no motivation to fight, Gotham is without crime, Bane is defeated after being unchallenged for months - there is a central theory here that could connect a lot of dots, but it is not explored thoroughly.
This is a main issue I run into when designing game world settings. While it is useful to have an idea how the world all fits together, the player does not need to have all of those elements thrown onto them at once. A narrow theme for the players is far more useful for their understanding than a theme park presentation. Too many themes just becomes noise and turns your setting into a clown show.
Yup. He didn't know the nature of the mask during the first fight, so he didn't know it was a weakness. The inmates in the Lazarus Pit spilled the beans as to what the mask actually does.
Great reworking of the story... All the elements were there... Loved this analysis... I've been working on an adaptation and finding the theme will be top on my list! Thank you!
I thought Banes death was not about Bane but about Catwoman and Batman once again being rewarded for his unwavering faith in the possibility for all people to do good. I think you are spot on about the Dark Knight Rises and I felt this movie was a continuation of that lesson. Selena Kyle is the consummate example of people not being all bad nor all good but making bad and good choices based on motivations and often desperation. The symbols are all throughout the movie. Commissioner Gordon misleading the people to city to get Harvey's law passed. Talia pretending to be an ally but becoming the main Villain. The police officers who blow the bridge to trap people being contrasted with the officers in Gotham risking their lives to say the city. Bane risking his life to save a little girl but becoming a destructive force out of loyalty to that same girl. Even the Device that was going to blow up Gotham. It could've been a Device for good providing energy for the city but was converted into a bomb. Had batman continued on we would've seen a catharsis in Bruce Wayne that would've allowed him to be a more compassionate and self aware Batman. A Batman that understands the difference between a Joker who merely wants to see the world burn and a criminal who was birthed by the system or both in the darkness as Bane would put and relying on their simplest instincts to survive. In terms of the climb, Batman has always relied upon understanding the psyche and motivations of his rogues. Experiencing the prison and climb he thought gave birth to Bane helped him understand the level and motivations of Bane. As Bane said he was born the dark, Batman merely adopted it.
I find what you say at 3:33, amusing because that’s already been done an executed BEAUTIFULLY well in another iconic Batman story! Literally everything you’ve said about Batman not significantly improving or doing something new on his second fight against Bane in the dark knight rises WAS actually done in the Dark Knight RETURNS comic/animated movie part when old man Batman was fighting against the mutant leader the first time and lost due to being out of his prime but in his second fight against the mutant leader, he gets to trap him in a mud hole and slowly start breaking the mutant leader down by using a whole bunch of tricks and tactics he didn’t use the first time to win the fight against the. Mutant leader and get all of his mutants minions to side with Batman and become the “Sons of Batman”. THAT was great storytelling and a showcase of oldman Batman have to remember to ACT like Batman, someone who uses ANYTHING In his resources to win the fight. Don’t fight fair, fight smart. And that’s EXACTLY what old man Batman does in that movie against the mutant leader, to fight strategically as to adapt to his body’s condition to win against someone else whose in his prime whole your out of yours! And Batman does this AGAIN against Bane in a Batman comic where he tricks bane into taking off his venom suit so he can fight him in a disadvantage. Fight smart, not fair. You gotta “cheat” if you have to win. THAT is Batman! Using everything to win!
Not a fan of the presented outline. Seemed like just a combination of the first two movies. I think you are right about the importance of the theme though. I wonder if Nolan was testing his so much story that character development isn't needed idea that happened in Tenet.
Fun writing tip: If you have too many themes you want to write about, try turning the work into an anthology or serialization. If there's a good throughline, it can actually work really well. Star Trek and Discworld are two great examples I can think of off the top of my head.
Nolan is amazing but this film is really weak. Also the fight choreography is absolutely terrible in this movie. Some of the fights are laughably bad. And do I have to mention Bale’s terrible Batman voice?
Funny part is that I'll still take it over the sloppy fight editing of the first film, as far as fighting goes and not the efforts to effectively bring mystique to him.
It’s my second favourite in the trilogy, it has my favourite moment in the trilogy, with that being when bane broke the bat. Because we saw 3 movies of batman kicking ass, then when he fights bane, he gets beat BAD, like messed up, which lets us know. Bane doesn’t mess around
man, i am really amazed by your ideas and your ability to rewrite and genuinely create such a great concept that i would've adored to see on the screen
I think this movie is the best batman movie ever because it's like a comic. It's like an actual batman comic. And I love that. This is the story where we see how batman is like an mythos like one big demon like anthology. In batman begins and dark knight we see batman as an real life batman. It's very realistic and thats what everbody loves about this movies. But batman dark knight rises is about the mythos batman. He gives the cape to Robin. He lives his own normal life. Many believes there batman in the end sitting in the Cafe where he seen by Alfred. I think there's sitting bruce wayne. The one man who had built a myth. Robin is saying it when he talk with the kid. He tells like batman is a myth an an human thing. And that is batman. Okay but I love this video and I don't say this like critically Im not a movie criticer but I like batman and this movie is a nice batman movie. The myth of batman given the fears and the burden to Robin. The next BATMAN
Great video. It amazes me (in a sad way) the direction they took the trilogy after the dark knight. And that’s coming from someone who actually loves a lot of moments in TDKR
The numerous plot holes...Bruce has his broken back conveniently healed (like he's Superman and completely making Nolan's realism void)...his getting back into Gotham completely undetected, and despite having no money, passport, etc...somehow getting up on the bridge to make that fiery signal, despite his magically healed back and with no one noticing...Talia not just getting rid of him when they're making out...surviving a nuclear blast (which also doesn't seem to affect Gotham either). And the police trapped underground clearly had access to bathing/shaving facilities for all that time. Nolan rushed this lazy movie into production and it shows. I find it hilarious when others say this is a masterpiece (because it's Christopher Nolan and the previous movies were amazing) and ignore all that above.
My main complaint is that they kept cutting away from all the action. One thing would explode, they would then cut away showing some boring random street and then cut back to it being on its back on the ground. This movie looks and feels cheap, even though it cost more to make than the Dark Knight, even while adjusting for inflation.
Dark Knight Rises is the best of the trilogy. Nothing but love for Heath’s Joker, but as far as story, Rises wins. It has faults. No one can deny that, but it’s still the best.
Story? The best story? Risis? You must be out of your mind. A script that is so all over the place, dumb and just nonsensical makes it the best? Goodness
Could it be better? Yes, is it still my favorite movie in the series? Also yes. The plane getting ripped apart, the stadium bomb, and the back breaking are just peak
I like the story you've come up with - it's really well developed, and yes it seems to me the theme is Gotham being corrupt, but it could focus on this and that Batman always saving a city and the people in it who are corrupt, enables (even protects) this corruption. Bane can argue that Batman, being just the saviour, simply enables whatever happens in the city (so he puts a timer on the weapon and asks batman a simple question; will you save this city that's corrupt will you protect that corruption?. So it follows what you've established, the question is whether Batman in saving Gotham is doing good or bad, does he really just enabling its corruption, that in fact the worst human traits thrive under his protection. So he hangs up his cape and runs to become mayor, stating violence isn't the answer - good old bureaucracy, regulations, strategic plans and ethics are what's needed. States he will banish Batman. Realising that he, Batman, is the most evil of all the villains he's faced; that Bane, the joker etc are just manifestations of himself, they become real and rise up out of the city because of his actions, batman enables the worst aspects of human nature, that in order for batman to finally win he needs to cease to exist... But which path does he choose to cease to exist, become Mayor? or.... just embrace that he's evil, in fact he loves it when there's a villain, so he saves Gotham, destroys the weapon with Bane and becomes the arch villain in the last scene, thus enabling the next movie (the last movie) which is The People of Gotham vs Batman.
I think an important factor to why this film feels less persoanal and therefore less interesring, is how Bain is less personal for Wayne. Raz al Ghul was a personal betrayal from Batman's mentor and the Joker had a specific motivation to break and demask Batman. Bain's goal is to destroy Gotham and Batman is more of a nuisance to be placed in a hole than his nemesis.
because they built up bane as a villain and threat, only to pull the rug out under him that all his plans were Talia's idea and he never escaped the pit. Batman was afraid of Bane in the first half, then in the finale Bane is a simp for Talia, who was not built up and was not a satisfying reveal.
I enjoyed the movie, but i would definitely change Robin. I'd take a page out of Batman Beyond, and have him train Robin in the years he retired. Maybe Alfred had stumbled on the kid stealing his car tires, amd they took him in. Sort of a combination of Dick Grayson and Jason Todd. At some point, he left to do his own thing and joined the police force and became a detective. This way he can still have a connection to the orphanage, and a connection to Bruce. With a great payoff that i feel makes much more sense with him becoming Batman.
I like your idea about making the theme of the movie about redemption and corruption. You could weave all the fragmented ideas that didn't land in the original into a cohesive story that way. However, I would make one change to your modification of the original with respect to the police. A corrupted institution still has members who are still trying to live up to the mission of the institution. I would have a split within the police department. I would use the attack on the sewers as a way for the corrupted officers to try to get rid of their straight counterparts, and I would leave them trapped there much like in the movie. However, after Bane reveals himself, the corrupted officers realize what they are a part of and are horrified. However, being corrupt, instead of fighting, they try to escape much like you outlined. Through the course of the story, you see some of these corrupt officers coming terms with it and returning to free their imprisoned brothers to help Batman retake Gotham. This could be told through a singular character as a representative as he is forced to interact with Robin since he is among the few of the straight officers not trapped. This way brings forth the idea of both individual redemption as well as corporate redemption.
I would say the theme is: "Can I protect the city forever?" Instead of fighting an opposite, like he does with Joker, he now fights a younger and stronger version of himself that knows all the tricks. The Joker was terrifying because Batman's strength didn't matter. But, you still *knew* that the second Batman could fight Joker on *his* terms, Joker would lose. Bane was terrifying because now even *that* was in doubt. Batman had no home turf to be comfortable on anymore. He had to go back to basics, and train more, and regain fear of death, and rally the city against Bane's false hope. And finally, he won against Bane. So, does that mean he *can* protect the city forever? No. His time has come to pass the torch.
In most other continuities Bruce and Selina's relationship is built up over a long time but in this they barely know each other but run off to Italy together even though she basically gave him to Bane to save herself, was planning to leave everyone in the city to die while she got away and only turned up to save Bruce from Bane at the last minute. Alfred's out of character in this too. He goes from saying he'll never give up on Bruce in Begins to using Rachel's letter saying she chose Harvey as emotional blackmail to try to stop him being Batman then leaves when it fails only to have the nerve to cry at Thomas and Martha's graves that he failed them when he thinks Bruce died.
The thing that really bugged me about the movie was the story. Bruce doesn't put the reactor mcguffin to use because he's afraid somebody will use it for evil, to which I have to ask, if you were thinking that way about this thing, why spend the insane amount of money needed to design and build the damn thing!? All he had to do was see that the thing could be used for evil, and then NOT build it. Problem solved. Movie avoided.
the thing about plot holes and inconsistancies, is that all stories have them. not only will you never be able to please everybody, but there will always be those idiots who turn off their brains and deliberately miss the point. the difference between good writing and NOT good writing (note I didn't say BAD writing) is how much attention those nitpicky flaws get. if you can engage your audience to the point where they no longer CARE about plot holes and similar flaws, then it's good writing. but when you fail at that task, for whatever reason, plot holes and other etcetera are the first thing that comes to mind because you don't care enough to ignore them. theme is a tool to make you care. our brains are EXEPTIONAL at pattern recognition, so it loves making connections and filling out the pattern. the more pieces of the pattern we find, the deeper we engage with it. but when the pieces don't fill out a complete picture, or there are multiple unrelated puzzle pieces being all dumped into the same pile, it gets overwhelmed and we lose interest. try putting together a jigsaw puzzle that only shipped with 2/3rds of the pieces in the box. that's not a satisfying experience is it? same thing if some toddler got a hold of every puzzle in a closet and dumped them all out in one ginormous pile. and them belly flopped right into the mess sending pieces everywhere. the same holds true for stories. true, not everything has to make sense at once. stories can and often do exist spread into multiple parts, be it movie, book, or video game series, or even a multi-season tv show. but when the entire thing is compete, we as a species EXPECT the pattern to be complete, for things to make sense. and when for whatever reason it doesn't, we go looking for reasons as to WHY the pattern failed us, why the picture failed to emerge. and often the first things that come to mind, like prodding a sore tooth, or poking a bruise, are those niggling little plot holes
Before watching the video, I hope reducing Bane to a simp when his motivation and commitment was at least interesting if not necessarily sympathetic was such a drag is one of the takeaways from this
One of the strongest themes in the movie has to do with the lie that Gordon and Wayne/Batman have to live in regards to Dent's death. The lie has basically stopped organized crime dead in its tracks, which is good, but the lie is so significant that Wayne decides to hang his cape and refuses to return to a normal life while Gordon becomes drawn to his job, distancing himself from his family. So far, this theme is good, and there isn't any need to reinvent the wheel. Where the movie screws up is when Bane reveals the lie when reading Gordon's letter in front of the prison. Like, Gotham is already in shambles by this point, so "uncovering" this lie is sorta meaningless. Like yeah, you could say that the release of the prisoners led to the kangaroo court presided by scarecrow, but I doubt the reveal of the Dent lie had anything to do with the creation of the kangaroo court. The story could have been better if the reckoning of Gotham stemmed not from the threat of the nuclear bomb but based on the reveal of the lie. Give the reveal proper weight and dish out heavy consequences as a result of the reveal. Like Gotham falls apart when people realize that Dent was a murdering psychopath. And then, and only then, does the League of Shadows come into play, coming to finish the job. That forces Batman to come out of retirement, in an attempt to undo everything that has happened.
I'll say this much. When batman challenges Bane again, he does go specifically for the mask, landing blows and cutting it with his arm blades, until it stops working for Bane. But that was badly communicated. A much better example of this is in the comic and animated movie The Dark Knight Returns. When Batman challenges the mutant leader for the first time, he fights sloppy, thinking he can win. He gets absolutely mauled. In his second fight, he makes it a point to use his brain, by fighting in a mud pit, cutting above the eyes, taking out one of the mutant leader's arms, and so on. He showed why he is top dog, by making a brutal example of that guy. What if Dark knight rises did that? Instead of having cops and criminals fighting around them in a somewhat sloppy mass battle, what if they stood on both sides and watched? Having Batman outfight Bane using his new found lack of fear, his years of experience, and smarts, would have been so rewarding. And imagine Batman breaking Bane in front of everyone, thus demoralizing most of Bane's men, so the cops overwhelm them all. And then you can get into the final nuclear bomb chase, without having Bane get taken out like a punk henchman.
As someone who watches Mauler and other In-detail critics, No. They are not correct 100% of the time. Sometimes what they say or point out is either debatable or straight up false. It happens to everyone.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I've never really liked this film and couldn't quite put my finger on why, but you did. Well done. My biggest issue has always been that Batsy would never quit, so having retired 8 years previous- and thus never had the adventures we imagined he would- felt wrong. I now see that what would have fixed that is if he rediscovered his purpose, overcame his apathy (which was rooted in a fear of pain, THAT'S the theme) and became the Batman we know and love at the end of the film thus completing his arc, would have solved the issues completely and validated the three-arc fear story.
The real issue is trying to box chrisopher nolan stories into standard movie run times. Basically all of his movies would be better with double the run time.
0:37 “The acting was [fantastic], too!” Except for that EXCRUCIATINGLY terrible death by Marion Cotillard. Literally, the worst death acting I’ve seen.
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Hey Henry, are your other Nebula videos going to be released on TH-cam at any point? I don't want to sound stingy, but I won't lie and say that I don't like free stuff😂
I actually liked having multiple themes. I don't know. It felt more like real world - putting emphasis on the details/process. I feel that Nolan adopted it throughout his other newer movies. Take Tenet - people don't like it that much. I like it. I think it's the same reason. It feels real. A complex system with multiple stakeholders. I don't mind that it's not about character development.
how to choose a theme?
@@lorenzogarciaduran5233 he said that this video was going to get released on the YT Release of Themes. He will make most of those videos exclusive to us.
@@xxtradamxx You can totally have multiple themes at the same time. Arcane is a story that pulls it off. But that doesn't mean you've got free licence to not give each them its due exploration.
Writing with multiple themes is actually a really interesting topic. I might do a video on it.
The “secret villain” thing was a bad choice. Thalia is terrible and Bane (a great well crafted villain in this piece) ended being just a henchman
Agreed, while I wouldn't necessarily say she was terrible. I would say the twist villain was unnecessary.
Also bane’s voice is so goofy.
Maybe but ln the other hand, it gives depth to bane and his reasons of acts.
@@NoVideolnput Unnecessary and way too predictable for anyone who was familiar with Batmans lore.
Bane was a bad ass. I think Batman should have broke Bane's back in the end fight because turnabout is fair play.
The Talia twist, the spine surgery/ knee strap, the cops rushing head on to thugs with machine guns and the fight choreography didn’t make sense to me.
Yeah, the knee thing always annoyed me. They bring it up at the beginning and then it never matters again. The other stuff was also a problem, but that annoyed me the most.
How bout letting off a nuke on the water and nothing happening after?
Surgery? Knee? Say that again…
The copaganda battle is so damn lame.
So didn't Maggie Gyllenhaal being Rachel. Many things don't make sense in both films if you want to cherry-pick.
“You shall regret this, Mr The Closer Look. You will now know the- *(insert unintelligible gibberish here)”* -Bane
Your punisshhment mussht be more sschhvere
"Ah you think the comment section is your ally? I was born in it!"
@@TheCloserLook"I didn't see likes until I was but a man, but by then they were nothing to me but blinding."
I love this movie, but I remember being in the theater during the scene in the football stadium. The combination of the microphone and Banes mask made it so unintelligible that everyone died laughing. I know they fixed it later on, but I just remember like for a solid minute everyone just laughing confused at the impossible muttering
"So you came back to die with your city."
"No. I came back to stop you."
*ABSOLUTE CINEMA*
It's Batman Time!!
Funny thing is, Batman didn't need to say that. All he had to do was just attack without saying a word.
@@ToshinekoThat probably would have been much less awkward.
Weak. He should've said break
That's a terrible like from Batman.
Henry: "I'm going to change as little as is humanly possible"
Also Henry: Rewrites the entire movie
Talia’s “death” might be one of the worst bits of acting in history. It’s absolutely hilarious though.
Marion Cotillard has said she was horrified they used that take. Apparently she gave them much better takes to work with. Given her other acting roles, I'm inclined to believe she can die more convincingly than that
I'm still sent by *_"Gruhhhhhhghhhhhhh_* _where'szatriggermannnnnnn wher'zatriggerman_ *_wher'zewher'zitwher'za'trg'ggermannnnn"_*
[punch punch punch punch punch punch]
@@adamwoolston253Yeah, that was a weird choice. I don't get why they used that take specifically
@@DoubleADwarfMan, Bale really flanderised his own Batman voice.
It started kinda raspy and just later became unrecognizable because he was running out of breath doing it.
The problem with The Dark Knight Rises is, it’s not good enough. It’s better than most things, it’s a Christopher Nolan film of course it is, but it’s not up to his standards, & he’s only got himself to blame, he set the bar so high with Batman Begins & The Dark Knight.
You can tell Nolan’s heart wasn’t with this one, & I can understand why, you lost the person that made The Dark Knight the phenomenon that it was, & was clearly going to be a big part of the next film.
I've always felt this way. Honestly...the way TDK was left off, I think Dent was supposed to be the primary villain in the third (I mean come on, the entire third act is basically Dent's origin story as a villain) entry with Joker also still having a key role.
I think aesthetically, it's good. But substantially, it is quite shitty. The story is unbelievably silly and contrived, the dialog is hilariously bad at times, the pacing is off, the plot holes are endless, the ending is great until it comes off as cowardly (like really, we're adults here. Batman can die). Worst of all, thematically, it's all over the place. I think it's a legitimately bad movie.
It's like a solid 7 facts
@@dunnowy123You really havent watched many movies if you actually think that.
TDKR is nowhere close to being a "bad movie".
What exactly do you mean by "heart wasnt in it"? Nolan has never once given off that impression at all when talking about Rises.
He talks about how he thinks its underrated, how Hardys Bane has yet to be fully appreciated and how the airplane sequence in the beginning is his favorite sequence to have filmed. He absolutely does not give off the impression that he made it with the mindset of "Fine heres your third Batman movie, now leave me alone".
22:00 Bane: *_"And, as you can see here, the emergence of high pressure winds will bring about a 50% increase of nuclear fallout. Back to you, Sarah."_*
I mean really Nolan had plans to use Joker in the 3rd movie but after Heath’s passing he kinda just lost interest in doing the 3rd movie. He only made it so he could Interstellar. Nolan kinda just coasted and rushed the film so he could go ahead and make Interstellar the movie he actually wanted to make.
I love that Nolan is such a master filmmaker that even a film he literally half-assed is still pretty darn good.
This is bullshit through and through.
Nolan had zero plans to use the clown after the Dark Knight. He didnt even come up with the story for Rises until well after he had finished The Dark Knight.
Joker already had an entire movie as the main villain. What more do you need from him?
There were plans for the joker to do some stuff in Rises, not main villain like Bane but more so things like Scarecrow acting as the judge.
It would be still logical cause ofc it is@@spencermalley10
This doesn’t mean that the Dark Knight series sucks, it’s just that this movie could be better
Yep
It doesn't suck...but its still overrated
It should have been better
Oh, really?
@blahmcblahface3965 hard disagree. If anything, it is underrated
I wrote a dystopian book recently too and and one of the biggest critiques (that was of substance), is that there was too much going on. They also said there was a lack of worldbuilding and not long enough, so I thought writing it longer with more exposition expanding on each theme would fix it. However I think I realized that being longer and explaining more won't fix underlying issues. I have more ideas for novels. Thinking of doing that.
Good luck fam, any way I can get to read this stuff?
Id love to chat with you as a dystopian epic unpublished author myself
I wanna see it as well im writing my own stories and comics. Can we get in contact?
5:51 somehow the resolution to their second fight is even worse than you say here. Someone in the prison told Bruce that Bane’s mask suppresses his ongoing pain, so Batman figures out to punch the mask a bunch until it falls apart. Just a shade more sophisticated than him reaching into his utility belt for his new anti-Bane spray.
Yeah, and it totally doesn't work because he could've just thought to do that in the first fight. You're telling me the mask with all the tubes and shit isn't just for show, and feeds him oxycontin gas? World's greatest detective!
Plot twist: the anti-Bane spray (Bane bane?) is punches.
Yeah I was gonna say he should mention that, because it is the major point of emphasis in that scene, but it is an issue on its own. Punching the guy’s mask that helps him breathe probably should’ve been your first tactic lol. This wasn’t some Batman “prep time” moment. It was just Batman being an idiot and needing to be told the obvious.
But he didn't punch the mask until it fell apart, he used the blades on the gauntlet to cut the tubes on Bane's mask. After 12 years, apparently people still miss this obvious detail.
@@windowsVDthe blades where already there in the first fight, weren’t they? He really should have done something, *anything* to the mask since the start.
I’m also really pissed they adapted out the venom Bane uses
Wow, I never thought that anyone would agree with me when I say Batman Begins is at least better than Rises... Agreed heavily with the critique... thank you!
Unpopular opinion. I think Batman Begins is the best in the trilogy.
Wait, who thinks Rises is better than Begins? I've never heard anyone express that opinion.
@@SuperZergMan Lots of TDKR glazers out there man
@@lennynero635 me too! I love Dark Knight, but I think Batman Begins has the most tightly written story and best structure and pacing. So on a technical level, at least, it holds more water, even though Dark Knight is generally more thematically striking. And, of course, has Heath Ledger's performance.
Begins is underatted.
Batman begins was such a great movie. The whole sequence of bruce becoming batman, the training the montages, everything was so well done and I enjoyed every bit of it
Unpopular opinion. I think Batman Begins is the best in the trilogy.
It is the very best of the trilogy, no question
@@lennynero635 It's becoming a more popular opinion now that people don't have a bias towards TDK because of Heath Ledger's death.
It's just interesting and innovative during the first half of the movie, but the second half became a generic mediocre superhero cliché.
@@theinvertedprotagonist yeah kinda agree with you
The scene you proposed, of Bane saying "and a man's wealth is enough of a reason for his death" is excellent. Bane was never revealed to have a desire for chaos, just an understanding of how to use it. I think one real problem is that they tried shoehorning in Scarecrow, itself not an issue because they didn't waste time explaining who he was, but that being said, if Striver had been the judge, it would have allowed for the possibility of using him as the 'rich victim' and streamlined the movie a little.
That being said, I think they were trying to make the Miranda reveal more impressive by saying "Bane is a footsoldier, she's actually evil."
Bane's death: The meaning was supposed to be Catwoman's redemption, who betrayed Batman when he fights Bane, being redeemed, while not changing her core character (she's completely unfazed by killing Bane) Not done that well, mind you (which I find a little insulting to my "age-appropriate celebrity crush.")
Batman learning a lesson: I believe the idea was that he punches Bane in the mask, which could have been treated as more significant. The theme of masks (Catwoman, Scarecrow, Robin) is a fairly prominent theme. Probably could have been the core theme, considering it's not-Jokery (Joker's makeup is not about concealment). The pit is also about concealing people's suffering from the world while still perpetuating it. In any case, he's supposed to have learned that kind of fearlessness - being unafraid of the violence required to take down someone like Bane, which involves crippling him in a brutal fashion. It's also worth mentioning that the mob, one of the recurring antagonists, is generally seen as anti-mask, a nice contrast.
I like how your rewrite actually goes in line with the comics as Bane had Batman exhausted before he actually showed up and broke him.
If I was making Batman films, I'd have the 3rd Batman movie be the story of Arkham Asylum with an underlying mystery of who let out all the villains. Then when Bruce goes home, he is confronted with a man that had been working at Wayne Manor and it is revealed to be Bane. Bane fights Bruce and breaks his back. Leaving the film on a sort of cliffhanger.
I so craved the fight to be in the batcave (possibly Alfred gets injured/dies), because the trailers led us to believe it would. Instead he lures him to the sewer, which is far less personal and which we had already seen two weeks previously in The Amazing Spider-Man.
"You're a big guy"
"For you"
If I pull that off, will you die?
“It Would Be Very Painful.”
Extremely painful
I like your take but what I like about Gotham both in Batman comics and those first two movies is how it shows that even if the city is rotten and corrupt it is worth saving because humanity still finds a way to flourish there. Nolan's Bane think it deserves to die because it's irredeemable, I think Batman's argument shouldn't be that "I can fix it" but that the people who live there deserve a chance. Gotham always have been full of good people fighting for what's right, even with everything against them and that is a valuable message.
Honestly even a few of the rogues, like Ivy, are mostly good people that broke down due to Gotham being so terrible but there’s still change to redeem them.
That being said… comic Gotham and dark knight trilogy Gotham are not really the same. To paraphrase OSP, it’s very clear that Nolan wanted to make Mafia movies that happened to feature Batman, not really Batman movies.
I do understand your points, and I agree with you, but it's my favorite one of the three. The main theme for me was redemption. Bruce had given up his life, alive but not living. Then with Bane he sees a way to die in glory, per Alfred's warning. When Bane doesn't kill him, he wants revenge. Yet until he chooses to live and do what he can, freeing the prison, does he have the strength to live for Gotham. That's why he is able to defeat Bane. Remember, when Bane saw the burning bat on the bridge, he couldn't believe it. Batman is the Christ figure and dies to redeem Bruce to live with Selina.
You're not alone there!
Dark night rises is my favorite of the three as well.
Also many of the critiques given are rather shallow, even here. Why didn't bane just set off the bomb, because Talia wanted to prove her father right in thay Gotham was beyond redemption. Bruce magic teleports, not if you're paying attention to the timer, it took him weeks to get back. The change that Bruce needed to beat bane, the second time Bruce wanted to live.
@@hitandruncommentorshallow? How are logical points and arguments shallow? Just watch the movie and you will see how incredibly bad it is, writing wise
Themes are worthless if you don't execute it properly. So how exactly do these themes instantly erase the bad in this film?
@@Exel3ncethey were executed in the film. At the beginning Bruce is on a downward trajectory. He lost the love of his life and he blames himself. He hangs up the cape because he used Batman as a scapegoat to clear Harvey’s name. He lost his fight and will to live and after bane breaks him, he is at his lowest. The rest of the movie is his redemption arc. Like that was already in the movie so this whole video is just nitpicky and kinda shitty tbh. It doesn’t improve the story.
In fairness, trying to outdo The Dark Knight was a daunting prospect. I'd still watch it over the more recent MCU films.
Personally, I'd even prefer it over a lot of the old MCU films. I love how gritty the Dark Knight trilogy feels, it feels a lot more alive than any MCU film I can remember watching.
@@finnjay6149 TDKR is the worst of the three Nolan Batman movies but pretty much better than anything Marvel has ever put out (Maybe with the exception of the very first Iron Man).
Dude, they all suck so much. TDK is just annoying and a chore to endure the whole of it
@@lennynero635 Not even. The very first Iron Man was also garbage.
Trying to outdo The Dark Knight?
Batman 1989 and Batman Returns outdo (or outdid) it
I didn't mind about plot holes.
Rises is so "over the top" it muddies the essence of the movie. I remember a stadium collapsing, people being sentenced to walk on ice, Bane overpowering Batman near water, a poor twist as to who's the real villain, but I'd be in a pickle if I was asked to connect these bits together.
I remember what the Joker intended to prove with the boats scene but I don't remember what Bane intended to establish while I watched the Dark Knight long long ago.
Don't forget Gordon riding around in the back of a trunk with a bomb bouncing all over in it and being perfectly fine when the door is open.
The worst thing is, despite all of this crazy stuff happening in the movie, TDKR is honestly kinda boring. It did not need to be 2hs40mins long, and I do not think that focusing so much on the cop character was a good idea. It's a batman movie, I want to see Batman do cool stuff.
Fulfill his Master's Father's plan! Which he clearly agreed with, btw.
if u watch the end fight, bane kinda makes the same mistake where he fights with nothing held back, which is why he loses
amazing video tho ur improvements made the movie better
Bane occupying Gotham for months is explained in the movie, he wishes to give people a glimpse of hope before destroying them.
Closer Look does a better job getting that point across and reflects the actual apathetic world we live in
I think also Bane is carrying out Talia's desire for revenge against Batman/Bruce. Why else supply him with a TV that lets him see all of Bane's actions?
(And yeah I hate the Talia twist, but it always seemed to be why Bane does all of the show before the big boom)
@@Mech-Might I get why he chose that route, but it also undermines Bane's own motives to just acting out of love for Talia. Closer Look's version at least shows that Bane shares the beliefs of Ra's, but also has his own ideas and approach to it, and makes him a better threat to Batman
The motivations still don't make sense despite the explanation. There's no point in giving people hope if you're just going to atomize them anyway. It's just an extra step that doesn't accomplish anything but to jeopardize your own plans.
@@Hayden_Lummus Oh I agree. I don't believe Bane acting out Talia's goals is a good way to write him. I was just explaining the way I talked myself into accepting his choice to torture the city rather than blow it up, given the information that is in the film. There are many changes I would make to this film if I was given reigns to re-write it. lol!
3:52 “Box office success has cost you your theme! Victory has defeated you!”
Firstly, I want to appreciate the effort and analysis you put in the video. I am a strong defender of Dark Knight Rises and I am going to state why I disagree with you on some of these points but I will admit, I do agree with a lot of your criticisms and rewrites on the movie.
1) Why Bane doesn't destroy Gotham immediately ? - He literally said it while trapping Bruce in the prison, he wants Gotham to feel a glimmer of hope before destroying them.
2) How Bane and Batman are polar opposites - Bane takes the entire city hostage threatening to destroy it but also giving people a glimmer of false hope to make them truly suffer which is in a way the opposite of Batman, he symbolizes hope, triumph, and rebirth.
3) How Batman manages to defeat Bane - In their first confrontation, Batman is unable to fight Bane because of lack of fear. He didn't fear death at that time but he regained that after jumping without the rope. You can see in their second confrontation, Batman has faster reflexes and avoids Bane's punches because of the adrenaline rushing through his veins, because of the fear of death.
4) Themes - I don't think the themes of resilience and hope were surface level, they were pretty deeply resonating and it inspired me how fear can sometimes be a great motivator. I also think Rises carry-forwards some of what Joker said. We see how the public shuns Batman because of Harvey's death and the unrest after Bane taking Gotham hostage shows his "civilized people will eat each other" ideology. However, I do agree that there are a lot of subplots that are just there for plot reasons and do not embody the themes.
5) Your Rewrite - To be honest, your ideas sound fascinating and I would have loved some of them to be included in the movie but my problem is that the stuff about "social experiment" and the police leaving Gotham and later joining it feel derivative of the ideas of the Dark Knight. Bane's plans in the rewrite feel very similar to Heath Ledger's Joker. Bane is mostly driven by personal vendetta. He wants Gotham to suffer like he did. "Film Theorists" did a great video analyzing how The Joker actually saved Gotham by getting rid of organized crime and replacing an alcoholic ineffective commissioner with an incorruptible Jim Gordon and for 8 years, peace in Gotham was maintained. However, Bane still wants the people of Gotham to feel the despair and suffering he did.
I do think it is the weakest of the bunch and for me and a lot of people, the first act was pretty frustrating but the movie found its footing after that. But overall, I think its a great movie. I also have a lot of sympathy for the filmmakers because they managed to make it a satisfying conclusion to the franchise despite Heath Ledger's passing. The Dark Knight is a really hard act to follow and despite all these hurdles, Nolan still managed to make it a thrilling conclusion.
Completely agree with you.
I do think that The Closer Look sometimes has found a narrative for his more recent videos and is then too obsessed with his ideas and doesn't analyze certain parts of movies good enough.
He did it with a video a year ago which he has deleted since, where people didn't agree with him at all.
@@l.bakker7563 Yeah, I think critical analysis might become formulaic or mechanical somtimes.
But if the script of the movie in itself is beyond awful, what does it matter? The film is so hilariously silly in its narrative that one shouldn't even see the good parts cause there is very little@@l.bakker7563
Similar thoughts here. He criticizes the climax for missing the opportunity to have a role reversal of Bane "fighting like a younger man" as he edits in the moment of Bane doing EXACTLY that as he loses his cool and starts punching the pillar. Kind of a mind boggling moment in this essay.
While I disagree with him that Rises has no theme, I do agree with his broader point that Rises isn't as bound or laser focused on its theme as The Dark Knight, and thus it doesn't quite resonate as well as its predecessor. I do completely agree with him that the movie should have committed to making the climax focused on the personal rivalry between Batman and Bane instead of sidelining Bane in favor of Talia. It would have hammered home the core themes a lot better. However, I think a lot of his individual ideas in his rewrites are either repetitive or contradict the ending of TDK. His entire idea about Batman still being active in bringing in criminals at the start of the story and then being betrayed by the police seems to completely ignore the fact that Batman sacrificed his reputation and became a wanted fugitive at the end of TDK. Putting so much emphasis on the paranoia of whether the police can be trusted feels highly repetitious by the third film, and I liked that the film largely moved away to showcase something different like class corruption.
Not to mention most of his pitch is essentially a socio-political crime thriller where the main conflict is really between Bane and the police that features almost zero Bruce Wayne or Batman, and it's honestly way more convoluted and bloated than the film that we got. I can't imagine actually trying to adapt these ideas into one Batman film. I think you’d need almost an entire miniseries to make these ideas work. Furthermore, his idea of having Bane give the police an ultimatum to prove that the system can redeemed under the threat of nuclear annihilation only to have the story still end with the police overthrowing Bane doesn’t really prove that system is ethically redeemable. It simply proves that the system is willing to fight and temporarily achieve unity to survive, so Bane’s ideology isn’t proven wrong in this rewrite. Having Bane be more of a false ideologue in the original film who was in reality a demagogue manipulating existing tensions to his own ends worked better with the climax since it meant that Bane didn’t necessarily have to be proven wrong as his goal wasn’t about proving a point unlike in this rewrite. Even though he said that he was trying to avoid making his ideas come across as "fan-fiction", I think they still kind of fell victim to it.
Overall, I agree at least to some extent with many of his broader points. But a good chunk of his individual points and ideas to fix the movie don't really work for me.
@@windowsVD Yeah, I agree with a lot of your points. Having Batman still fighting against crime contradicts the ending of TDK. I recommend watching "The Film Theorists" video on how Joker saved Gotham if you haven't seen it already. He got Gotham rid of organized crime, several corrupt officials, and replaced an ineffective commissioner Loeb with an incorruptible and effective Jim Gordon. So there was no need for any vigilante until Bane shows up. The rewrite version of Bane felt very similar to Heath Ledger's Joker. They are both different in their goals. Joker wanted to prove that people are inherently bad deep down and maybe we can also compare Riddler from Matt Reeves's batman where he wants to expose or "unmask" the dark truths of Gotham. Basically, both these villains wanted to prove a point. On the other hand, Bane is a terrorist hellbent on revenge. He wants the citizens of Gotham to suffer like he did in the pit and he also wants them to feel a glimmer of hope to further torture them. He has no intentions of validating any ideology. I haven't read any of the comics. My interpretation is based on the movies I have seen. I don't think Rises was about characters arguing different ideologies but more about the theme of overcoming your past failures and facing current challenges with resilience.
Bane: "Do your work."
Bomb scientist: (removes his jacket)
...
We cut away for a few short minutes, then practically smash cut to:
"It is done. This is now a four megaton nuclear bomb."
Some of this dialogue insults the audience. Either it was placeholder dialogue that was left in the movie or someone wrote backwards from a moment they needed to happen. Another example is when the little Wall Street fellow says " you're pure evil" to Bane's villain speech. Somebody just wanted Bane to say "I am necessary evil."
I guess Nolan wanted to correct this scene by making a whole movie about how to make a nuclear bomb.
Awesome, thank you.
1. I learned more about themes.
2. I learned more about the theme of The Dark Knight
3. ... and the explanation of the theme teached me something about life.
4. And I really like your theme oriented variation of Dark Knight Rises. I really would like to see it in cinema :-)
I really like your content and watch it to improve my skills as rpg game master.
I immediately start laughing when the real villain of the movie is Talia Al Ghul and she dies inside of a vehicle. What a pathetic way to waste a villain, right here.
The scene where the entire police force is sent into an underground tunnel and end up getting trapped there, spending possibly months in there only to be freed later on and they all appear as if they were only trapped inside for only a few minutes was ridiculous. They all emerge with clean clothes and are all clean shaven, while Bruce Wayne grew a beard and let his hair grow long the whole time he was away.
What's so frustrating about the "you fight like a young man with nothing held back" is that is EXACTLY what Bane does in the climactic fight when he's screaming and whaling on Batman against that pillar.
I’m not sure why that’s “frustrating” when it’s precisely the point. It’s more odd that The Closer Look literally edited in the moment that showed the role reversal that he claimed was missing.
"Why didn't Bane set the nuke off and occupy Gotham?"
So were you just not paying attention when Bane laid out to Bruce in the prison exactly why he wasn't going to Destroy Gotham immediately? Come on dude it doesn't take that much effort to pay attention to a film.
I have to say , you have to hire some voice actors and have them make your version of batman rises
Its indeed amazing
I guess there's... something going on, with Batman and Bane, in that they're both in pain but are numbed, and neither care about living all that much, but then... when Batman returns to Gotham, he's... embraced his pain and his fear and... hm, no, that doesn't work.
Another great video! Would you consider taking a look at Groundhog Day and the way its script works so well? After watching a ton of these videos on writing, I look at older movies to see how it was done. With Groundhog, the characters are setup before the intro credits are done. At about the twenty minute mark, the first repeated day happens. It’s amazing how much fluff is absent.
This movie is better than 99% movies. As awesome as Begins, not quite as The Joker one.
Envious kills inside man and make people end up ++zükíng++ in life! Do something about it.
Personally, I think this film is just as good as The Dark Knight, it's just that the two don't have the same qualities. Tdk stands out for its unpredictable script, its cold, nihilistic atmosphere and its fascinating, terrifying villain, whereas tdkr stands out for its scope, its emotional side, its symbolism and its direction (nolan even manages to give us some very good hand-to-hand combat, which is a big improvement on tdk). And the film remains devilishly interesting in terms of its themes. At the end of tdk, the joker defeated batman for control of gotham's soul, succeeding in corrupting the white knight, harvey dent. But Batman sacrificed himself and decided to invent a lie to cover up his two-faced actions. And it's on this thematic basis that tdkr builds: all the characters, and even Gotham in general, are trapped in the lie, in a state of apathy and ignorance of the problems (bruce wayne playing dead in his mansion and unwilling to rebuild his life so as not to have to face Rachel's grief ; Gordon, who perpetuates the lie about Harvey Dent and doesn't have the courage to reveal the truth; Selina Kyle, who expects a savior to solve these problems when in fact that savior is a monster; and the Gotham authorities, who won't admit to the disappearance of orphans and the presence of Bane in the sewers).Even the political themes are consistent with this message.We have social inequalities which are a problem that the elites neglect, and populism whose danger is not perceived until it's too late.We can believe as a spectator that the return of Batman is going to be the solution to all this but that is not the case: it is only a way for Bruce to escape these traumas by dying fighting Bane and that doesn't even prevent the villain's plans (Batman even facilitates them during the stock market raid). It will therefore be necessary to break everything (the American dream of unity during the stadium scene, the institutions with the burial of the police, the Dent Act with the reading of Gordon's real speech, Selina Kyle's dream of escape, the back and the mind of Bruce) so that the characters finally act (Bruce regains a taste for life, Selina becomes his own heroine, the police stop Bane's army and Gordon deactivates the bomb). Even Bruce's retirement is the end of a lie since Batman was an illusion meant to scare criminals. All the characters are finally happy because peace is finally coming, real peace and not the charade that we saw at the beginning of the film.
I've got to say, i truly loved your idea for rewriting the Dark Knight Rises, it made the plot of the movie so much better. The only thing is i wouldn't have added that Bane respected Batman, i don't think it was necessary and i think Bane just believing in Ra's ideology was more than enough.
23:47 And got so far, But in the end, It doesn’t even matter.
Your question about Bane's bomb plan has a literal in-movie explanation. It's not just about destroying Gotham, it's about torturing Batman by forcing himself to watch the city tear itself apart before being destroyed, proving that he was wrong about the people being good. That's not a plot hole, that's part of the motivation. It doesn't matter if the plan makes sense from a purely functional perspective. People don't always do things that make sense.
but that doesn't make sense since at the end of the movie, the guy ditched Gotham to chase some cat pussy, dude literally leave his duty again.
I don't buy that though, that's a line of dialogue excusing something Nolan needs to happen in order to keep the city alive for months. How could Bane be sure they get cable satellite tv in the prison? How would they? It's still dumb. It would torture Batman MORE to not know the fate of his city while he's trapped in there, and blow it immediately just in case he gets out. Instead, all Bane did was give him motivation to escape- and then acts surprised he did. Take away everything Brucey had to live for while he rots in there, now THAT's true despair!
@@brentandrew2419 It doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the character thinks.
There's this theory I ascribe to called Tangible Details. See, storytelling is a complex art, much like being a mechanic. Those who don't actually understand storytelling will still be able to tell that something in the story isn't working for them, just as you can tell when your car isn't working, but that doesn't mean you understand why it's not working. Since nature abhors a vacuum, people will fill in their own reasons as to why a story isn't working and these ideas can often be just as silly as when a person with no knowledge of cars tries to explain to a mechanic what's wrong with theirs.
The real problem with Dark Knight Rises is that it's structured poorly. There's good build-up to the first encounter with Bane, but after that, the story loses any sense of narrative urgency. The bomb threat fails to provide it because the film does a bad job of giving you a sense of when it goes off and it takes so long for them to get around to actually doing anything about it. Also it's almost always bad to have a twist villain reveal themselves at the end of the story because you don't get a chance to know them as a villain, so as a result they have no sense of impact on the story.
Everything else that people latch onto is just a tangible detail people grasp to try to explain why they think the story isn't going anywhere. If the story were better structured, you wouldn't care, or even notice these "plot holes" because you'd be enjoying the movie instead. This is also why people never complain about bad effects in good movies, even when the effect totally fails to sell itself (like the stop motion on the gargoyles in the original Ghostbusters).
I would agree with the idea of your fix, with one big change: use Two-Face (primarily) instead of Bane.
Maybe Bane could work silently in the background. Could even "fix" the ending of Dark Knight by instead of being dead, that only his back was broken (to be fair, Batman walks away from a fall of the same height, plus armor), like Batman's is in this one, and Bane helps him heal while he teaches his philosophies to him. With Two-Face's personal experiences of the system failing him (ie the cops failing to save Rachel), and the setup at the end of Dark Knight, he has every reason to believe and prove Gotham's systems failed. So him vs Batman would be a great dichotomy. Could even enhance that redemption arc by Batman convincing Two-Face at the end to save the city, but Bane's like, "Nah, I was going to destroy it all anyway." Then it's those two against Bane. Bane dies thanks to both of them, Batman retires, Two-Face rules the city. (now I know that would greatly depart from source material, but Nolan hasn't been one to really follow it anyway)
The only downside is that this redemption theme is partially done in previous movies. It's more of a series theme, to be honest. Without enough hard-earned exploration, audiences may feel, "Didn't we already have this theme before?"
I wouldn't say Mauler is "correct" as his Dark Souls 2 take has been torn to shreds.
They hated you for you told them the truth.
Cope
@@bigideasthescholar?
I always thought the theme of this movie was dealing with pain.
Begins: Fear, Dark knight: Chaos, Rises: Pain
While I still like The Dark Knight Rises despite its flaws, it isn't as strong as Batman Begins and The Dark Knight.
How could it have been?
It just kinda feels like it’s going through the motions, hard to describe. It’s like there’s nothing super wrong with it, but there’s no moment I really wanna ever go back to besides the plane at the start.
Christopher Nolan was hesitant about returning to the series for a third film, but agreed after developing a story with his brother and David Goyer that he felt would conclude the series on a satisfactory note.
I never noticed that until you said it, they never commit to a theme and resigned to solving things with punches at the end.
Bane and Talia's motivations are to torture Bruce and the population of Gotham before they're destroyed.
The knee brace is fine except, he didn't have to kick the bricks off of the wall.
It's easy for Bruce to reach Gotham, he is world famous and many people from around the world would help him with food, clothes, vehicles, expecting money in return. He then could sneak into Gotham through a secret passage. Bruce finding Selina in the precise spot she's in is not good tho.
The police plot could've been handled better, maybe a few hundred men go into the sewers, the rest are captured or straight up executed on the streets.
It's fine for Selina to kill Bane at the end, Batman already defeated him .
Talia's death scene is really bad.
Overall Bane's presence and the shaping of the full circle of Bruce's story (from falling in the well to escaping The Pit is enough for me to love this movie. Also Bane sounds like Vader when he says "and you betrayed us" so that gives you 100 cinema wins.
Bane’s monologues alone make this movie worth watching, flaws and all aside.
Banes monologues are just silly, let's be honest. A muscle dude that speaks through a pringles can, how can one take him serious
I would argue the notion is "Victory has defeated you" applies to most people - the police chief has no motivation to fight, Gotham is without crime, Bane is defeated after being unchallenged for months - there is a central theory here that could connect a lot of dots, but it is not explored thoroughly.
This is a main issue I run into when designing game world settings. While it is useful to have an idea how the world all fits together, the player does not need to have all of those elements thrown onto them at once. A narrow theme for the players is far more useful for their understanding than a theme park presentation. Too many themes just becomes noise and turns your setting into a clown show.
Dude. You're script rewrites are the highlights of this channel. There are so many movies I prefer to remember through your rewrites. Ty
Thank you for making another good a well thought out video about Theme, it's mentioned all the time but is rarely dwelled upon.
Batman did win against Bane because he kept punching the mask, "fight smarter, not harder".
Yup. He didn't know the nature of the mask during the first fight, so he didn't know it was a weakness. The inmates in the Lazarus Pit spilled the beans as to what the mask actually does.
The Dark Knight Rises is not the best film in its trilogy, but it is still a good film.
Even better than several Blockbusters.
Great reworking of the story... All the elements were there... Loved this analysis... I've been working on an adaptation and finding the theme will be top on my list! Thank you!
Ah, the best early Christmas present: a Closer Look video
I UNDERSTAND THE HAROLDS NOVEL REFERENCE!
I AM PART OF THE IN-GROUP FOR ONCE!
WOOOOOO!!!
I thought Banes death was not about Bane but about Catwoman and Batman once again being rewarded for his unwavering faith in the possibility for all people to do good. I think you are spot on about the Dark Knight Rises and I felt this movie was a continuation of that lesson. Selena Kyle is the consummate example of people not being all bad nor all good but making bad and good choices based on motivations and often desperation. The symbols are all throughout the movie. Commissioner Gordon misleading the people to city to get Harvey's law passed. Talia pretending to be an ally but becoming the main Villain. The police officers who blow the bridge to trap people being contrasted with the officers in Gotham risking their lives to say the city. Bane risking his life to save a little girl but becoming a destructive force out of loyalty to that same girl. Even the Device that was going to blow up Gotham. It could've been a Device for good providing energy for the city but was converted into a bomb. Had batman continued on we would've seen a catharsis in Bruce Wayne that would've allowed him to be a more compassionate and self aware Batman. A Batman that understands the difference between a Joker who merely wants to see the world burn and a criminal who was birthed by the system or both in the darkness as Bane would put and relying on their simplest instincts to survive. In terms of the climb, Batman has always relied upon understanding the psyche and motivations of his rogues. Experiencing the prison and climb he thought gave birth to Bane helped him understand the level and motivations of Bane. As Bane said he was born the dark, Batman merely adopted it.
I find what you say at 3:33, amusing because that’s already been done an executed BEAUTIFULLY well in another iconic Batman story!
Literally everything you’ve said about Batman not significantly improving or doing something new on his second fight against Bane in the dark knight rises WAS actually done in the Dark Knight RETURNS comic/animated movie part when old man Batman was fighting against the mutant leader the first time and lost due to being out of his prime but in his second fight against the mutant leader, he gets to trap him in a mud hole and slowly start breaking the mutant leader down by using a whole bunch of tricks and tactics he didn’t use the first time to win the fight against the. Mutant leader and get all of his mutants minions to side with Batman and become the “Sons of Batman”. THAT was great storytelling and a showcase of oldman Batman have to remember to ACT like Batman, someone who uses ANYTHING In his resources to win the fight. Don’t fight fair, fight smart. And that’s EXACTLY what old man Batman does in that movie against the mutant leader, to fight strategically as to adapt to his body’s condition to win against someone else whose in his prime whole your out of yours!
And Batman does this AGAIN against Bane in a Batman comic where he tricks bane into taking off his venom suit so he can fight him in a disadvantage.
Fight smart, not fair. You gotta “cheat” if you have to win.
THAT is Batman! Using everything to win!
Not a fan of the presented outline. Seemed like just a combination of the first two movies. I think you are right about the importance of the theme though. I wonder if Nolan was testing his so much story that character development isn't needed idea that happened in Tenet.
Fun writing tip: If you have too many themes you want to write about, try turning the work into an anthology or serialization. If there's a good throughline, it can actually work really well. Star Trek and Discworld are two great examples I can think of off the top of my head.
You know you are a top director when the fans calls your worst work "Good"
All this movie needed was a penguin.
It worked in the other Batman universe.
It worked very, very, very well.
Nolan is amazing but this film is really weak. Also the fight choreography is absolutely terrible in this movie. Some of the fights are laughably bad. And do I have to mention Bale’s terrible Batman voice?
the fight problem is of the trilogy as a whole
Funny part is that I'll still take it over the sloppy fight editing of the first film, as far as fighting goes and not the efforts to effectively bring mystique to him.
It’s my second favourite in the trilogy, it has my favourite moment in the trilogy, with that being when bane broke the bat. Because we saw 3 movies of batman kicking ass, then when he fights bane, he gets beat BAD, like messed up, which lets us know. Bane doesn’t mess around
man, i am really amazed by your ideas and your ability to rewrite and genuinely create such a great concept that i would've adored to see on the screen
I think this movie is the best batman movie ever because it's like a comic. It's like an actual batman comic. And I love that. This is the story where we see how batman is like an mythos like one big demon like anthology. In batman begins and dark knight we see batman as an real life batman. It's very realistic and thats what everbody loves about this movies. But batman dark knight rises is about the mythos batman. He gives the cape to Robin. He lives his own normal life. Many believes there batman in the end sitting in the Cafe where he seen by Alfred. I think there's sitting bruce wayne. The one man who had built a myth. Robin is saying it when he talk with the kid. He tells like batman is a myth an an human thing. And that is batman. Okay but I love this video and I don't say this like critically Im not a movie criticer but I like batman and this movie is a nice batman movie. The myth of batman given the fears and the burden to Robin. The next BATMAN
Great video. It amazes me (in a sad way) the direction they took the trilogy after the dark knight. And that’s coming from someone who actually loves a lot of moments in TDKR
The numerous plot holes...Bruce has his broken back conveniently healed (like he's Superman and completely making Nolan's realism void)...his getting back into Gotham completely undetected, and despite having no money, passport, etc...somehow getting up on the bridge to make that fiery signal, despite his magically healed back and with no one noticing...Talia not just getting rid of him when they're making out...surviving a nuclear blast (which also doesn't seem to affect Gotham either). And the police trapped underground clearly had access to bathing/shaving facilities for all that time. Nolan rushed this lazy movie into production and it shows. I find it hilarious when others say this is a masterpiece (because it's Christopher Nolan and the previous movies were amazing) and ignore all that above.
your rant 9 minutes in gets to the heart of why I don't like any long-term comic or manga franchises being treated as deep
My main complaint is that they kept cutting away from all the action. One thing would explode, they would then cut away showing some boring random street and then cut back to it being on its back on the ground.
This movie looks and feels cheap, even though it cost more to make than the Dark Knight, even while adjusting for inflation.
14:50 NUCLEAR
IT'S PRONOUNCED
NEW-CLEE-AR
STOP SAYING IT LIKE GEORGE W BUSH, YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT.
Dark Knight Rises is the best of the trilogy. Nothing but love for Heath’s Joker, but as far as story, Rises wins. It has faults. No one can deny that, but it’s still the best.
Story? The best story? Risis? You must be out of your mind. A script that is so all over the place, dumb and just nonsensical makes it the best? Goodness
I see what you mean 😏 and agree with you on that 👍 👏 😅
Right now I am writing a story with a theme of breaking traditions and evolving from it, and then trusting and breaking away from the past
Could it be better? Yes, is it still my favorite movie in the series? Also yes. The plane getting ripped apart, the stadium bomb, and the back breaking are just peak
I like the story you've come up with - it's really well developed, and yes it seems to me the theme is Gotham being corrupt, but it could focus on this and that Batman always saving a city and the people in it who are corrupt, enables (even protects) this corruption. Bane can argue that Batman, being just the saviour, simply enables whatever happens in the city (so he puts a timer on the weapon and asks batman a simple question; will you save this city that's corrupt will you protect that corruption?. So it follows what you've established, the question is whether Batman in saving Gotham is doing good or bad, does he really just enabling its corruption, that in fact the worst human traits thrive under his protection. So he hangs up his cape and runs to become mayor, stating violence isn't the answer - good old bureaucracy, regulations, strategic plans and ethics are what's needed. States he will banish Batman. Realising that he, Batman, is the most evil of all the villains he's faced; that Bane, the joker etc are just manifestations of himself, they become real and rise up out of the city because of his actions, batman enables the worst aspects of human nature, that in order for batman to finally win he needs to cease to exist... But which path does he choose to cease to exist, become Mayor? or.... just embrace that he's evil, in fact he loves it when there's a villain, so he saves Gotham, destroys the weapon with Bane and becomes the arch villain in the last scene, thus enabling the next movie (the last movie) which is The People of Gotham vs Batman.
I think an important factor to why this film feels less persoanal and therefore less interesring, is how Bain is less personal for Wayne. Raz al Ghul was a personal betrayal from Batman's mentor and the Joker had a specific motivation to break and demask Batman. Bain's goal is to destroy Gotham and Batman is more of a nuisance to be placed in a hole than his nemesis.
Honestly, your version of the movie sounds like a much better watch.
Amazing breakdown as always. ♥
because they built up bane as a villain and threat, only to pull the rug out under him that all his plans were Talia's idea and he never escaped the pit. Batman was afraid of Bane in the first half, then in the finale Bane is a simp for Talia, who was not built up and was not a satisfying reveal.
I enjoyed the movie, but i would definitely change Robin. I'd take a page out of Batman Beyond, and have him train Robin in the years he retired. Maybe Alfred had stumbled on the kid stealing his car tires, amd they took him in. Sort of a combination of Dick Grayson and Jason Todd. At some point, he left to do his own thing and joined the police force and became a detective. This way he can still have a connection to the orphanage, and a connection to Bruce. With a great payoff that i feel makes much more sense with him becoming Batman.
Great video. That rewrite was KILLER!
I like your idea about making the theme of the movie about redemption and corruption. You could weave all the fragmented ideas that didn't land in the original into a cohesive story that way. However, I would make one change to your modification of the original with respect to the police. A corrupted institution still has members who are still trying to live up to the mission of the institution. I would have a split within the police department. I would use the attack on the sewers as a way for the corrupted officers to try to get rid of their straight counterparts, and I would leave them trapped there much like in the movie. However, after Bane reveals himself, the corrupted officers realize what they are a part of and are horrified. However, being corrupt, instead of fighting, they try to escape much like you outlined. Through the course of the story, you see some of these corrupt officers coming terms with it and returning to free their imprisoned brothers to help Batman retake Gotham. This could be told through a singular character as a representative as he is forced to interact with Robin since he is among the few of the straight officers not trapped. This way brings forth the idea of both individual redemption as well as corporate redemption.
I would say the theme is:
"Can I protect the city forever?"
Instead of fighting an opposite, like he does with Joker, he now fights a younger and stronger version of himself that knows all the tricks. The Joker was terrifying because Batman's strength didn't matter. But, you still *knew* that the second Batman could fight Joker on *his* terms, Joker would lose. Bane was terrifying because now even *that* was in doubt. Batman had no home turf to be comfortable on anymore. He had to go back to basics, and train more, and regain fear of death, and rally the city against Bane's false hope. And finally, he won against Bane. So, does that mean he *can* protect the city forever?
No. His time has come to pass the torch.
In most other continuities Bruce and Selina's relationship is built up over a long time but in this they barely know each other but run off to Italy together even though she basically gave him to Bane to save herself, was planning to leave everyone in the city to die while she got away and only turned up to save Bruce from Bane at the last minute. Alfred's out of character in this too. He goes from saying he'll never give up on Bruce in Begins to using Rachel's letter saying she chose Harvey as emotional blackmail to try to stop him being Batman then leaves when it fails only to have the nerve to cry at Thomas and Martha's graves that he failed them when he thinks Bruce died.
The thing that really bugged me about the movie was the story.
Bruce doesn't put the reactor mcguffin to use because he's afraid somebody will use it for evil, to which I have to ask, if you were thinking that way about this thing, why spend the insane amount of money needed to design and build the damn thing!?
All he had to do was see that the thing could be used for evil, and then NOT build it. Problem solved. Movie avoided.
the thing about plot holes and inconsistancies, is that all stories have them. not only will you never be able to please everybody, but there will always be those idiots who turn off their brains and deliberately miss the point. the difference between good writing and NOT good writing (note I didn't say BAD writing) is how much attention those nitpicky flaws get. if you can engage your audience to the point where they no longer CARE about plot holes and similar flaws, then it's good writing. but when you fail at that task, for whatever reason, plot holes and other etcetera are the first thing that comes to mind because you don't care enough to ignore them.
theme is a tool to make you care. our brains are EXEPTIONAL at pattern recognition, so it loves making connections and filling out the pattern. the more pieces of the pattern we find, the deeper we engage with it. but when the pieces don't fill out a complete picture, or there are multiple unrelated puzzle pieces being all dumped into the same pile, it gets overwhelmed and we lose interest. try putting together a jigsaw puzzle that only shipped with 2/3rds of the pieces in the box. that's not a satisfying experience is it? same thing if some toddler got a hold of every puzzle in a closet and dumped them all out in one ginormous pile. and them belly flopped right into the mess sending pieces everywhere.
the same holds true for stories. true, not everything has to make sense at once. stories can and often do exist spread into multiple parts, be it movie, book, or video game series, or even a multi-season tv show. but when the entire thing is compete, we as a species EXPECT the pattern to be complete, for things to make sense. and when for whatever reason it doesn't, we go looking for reasons as to WHY the pattern failed us, why the picture failed to emerge. and often the first things that come to mind, like prodding a sore tooth, or poking a bruise, are those niggling little plot holes
Before watching the video, I hope reducing Bane to a simp when his motivation and commitment was at least interesting if not necessarily sympathetic was such a drag is one of the takeaways from this
the only thing batman does different in his second match against bane is that he breaks his mask
Christopher Nolan is notorious for filling his movie with small stories. Take Interstellar when they go to the water planet with waves.
What about Batman hitting Bane mask which gave him the slight edge in the second fight?
One of the strongest themes in the movie has to do with the lie that Gordon and Wayne/Batman have to live in regards to Dent's death. The lie has basically stopped organized crime dead in its tracks, which is good, but the lie is so significant that Wayne decides to hang his cape and refuses to return to a normal life while Gordon becomes drawn to his job, distancing himself from his family. So far, this theme is good, and there isn't any need to reinvent the wheel. Where the movie screws up is when Bane reveals the lie when reading Gordon's letter in front of the prison. Like, Gotham is already in shambles by this point, so "uncovering" this lie is sorta meaningless. Like yeah, you could say that the release of the prisoners led to the kangaroo court presided by scarecrow, but I doubt the reveal of the Dent lie had anything to do with the creation of the kangaroo court.
The story could have been better if the reckoning of Gotham stemmed not from the threat of the nuclear bomb but based on the reveal of the lie. Give the reveal proper weight and dish out heavy consequences as a result of the reveal. Like Gotham falls apart when people realize that Dent was a murdering psychopath. And then, and only then, does the League of Shadows come into play, coming to finish the job. That forces Batman to come out of retirement, in an attempt to undo everything that has happened.
5:21 it really gave me goosebumps when Rachel Zegler said to Billy Zane from the Phantom with her best half-Polish accent, "I was BORN in darkness..."
I'll say this much. When batman challenges Bane again, he does go specifically for the mask, landing blows and cutting it with his arm blades, until it stops working for Bane. But that was badly communicated. A much better example of this is in the comic and animated movie The Dark Knight Returns. When Batman challenges the mutant leader for the first time, he fights sloppy, thinking he can win. He gets absolutely mauled. In his second fight, he makes it a point to use his brain, by fighting in a mud pit, cutting above the eyes, taking out one of the mutant leader's arms, and so on. He showed why he is top dog, by making a brutal example of that guy. What if Dark knight rises did that? Instead of having cops and criminals fighting around them in a somewhat sloppy mass battle, what if they stood on both sides and watched? Having Batman outfight Bane using his new found lack of fear, his years of experience, and smarts, would have been so rewarding. And imagine Batman breaking Bane in front of everyone, thus demoralizing most of Bane's men, so the cops overwhelm them all. And then you can get into the final nuclear bomb chase, without having Bane get taken out like a punk henchman.
Not me immediately recognizing Harold's novel from the theme video
As someone who watches Mauler and other In-detail critics, No. They are not correct 100% of the time. Sometimes what they say or point out is either debatable or straight up false. It happens to everyone.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I've never really liked this film and couldn't quite put my finger on why, but you did. Well done. My biggest issue has always been that Batsy would never quit, so having retired 8 years previous- and thus never had the adventures we imagined he would- felt wrong. I now see that what would have fixed that is if he rediscovered his purpose, overcame his apathy (which was rooted in a fear of pain, THAT'S the theme) and became the Batman we know and love at the end of the film thus completing his arc, would have solved the issues completely and validated the three-arc fear story.
The real issue is trying to box chrisopher nolan stories into standard movie run times. Basically all of his movies would be better with double the run time.
0:37 “The acting was [fantastic], too!” Except for that EXCRUCIATINGLY terrible death by Marion Cotillard. Literally, the worst death acting I’ve seen.
Batman did change his tactics in the climax. Targeting bane's breathing device, with his punches, trying to disable it.