How to Pronounce Latin (Final -M) / De Latine Pronuntiando (-M Finalis)
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HOW TO PRONOUNCE LATIN / DE LATINE PRONVNTIANDO
L. Amadei Ranierii / by Luke Amadeus Ranieri
VOX LATINA a W. Syndey Allen scripti libri nexus apud Amazon / Amazon link to the book VOX LATINA by W. Syndey Allen which is the source for some of my quotations:
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I thought my nasalization of "m" as a Brazilian would be a defect, so happy that I can use it in Latin! 😂
Yes! The Portuguese am is probably not a good model for Latin am, but the rest are closer.
@@ScorpioMartianus, it actually is, just not ending -am, but -am itself is close to latin, like in ambulo.
Same here.
@@ScorpioMartianus The "em" sounding either /ẽj̃/ (Brazilian accent) or /ɐ̃j̃/ (Portugal Portuguese accent) might also not be the best of models, especially in Portugal accents.
@@mickgorro although it's still easier to learn a new nasal vowel when you have both nasalization and the pure vowel in your language. It's harder for an English speaker who has no phonemic nasal vowels or even a pure A or E sound to begin with.
very excited to have discovered this channel -- too many latinists are content just to teach their own habits rather than the language itself. thank you for your guidance!
Thank you so much, Chris! I hope it's helpful. I'm far from perfect, but I enjoy trying to get better. :)
This video applies a lot of my pronunciation recommendations. I think songs are a great way to learn the naturalness of language! th-cam.com/video/ZJa2yTyxBKo/w-d-xo.html
As italian i'm listening this like "c'mon i must undestand this"
Man, you pronounced so perfectly nasal vowels in Portuguese exactly like a native speaker. That's amazing! Non native speakers of Portuguese often have a hard time emulating those sounds. I'm very impressed! By the way, I'm a native speaker of Portuguese.
Roger Cham obrigado! I adore Portuguese 🇧🇷 🇵🇹😊
Ah, this is the most beautiful Latin pronunciation I have ever heard!!
And thank you for including some of you source material, it is always good to have those for future reference :)
Большое спасибо, дорогая Вера! :D You are very kind. I hope to live up to your compliments! I address many topics on pronunciation in this playlist, and the earlier videos may especially be of interest: th-cam.com/video/RhqQzMORWVk/w-d-xo.html
Ah, wonderful, I will check them ALL out as soon as my Latin is just a little bit stronger (so that I can appreciate the content in original Latin as it should be appreciated!)
Certainly! :D
Vera es tu? Veritas habes? 😉🌹
bona exempla monstravisti luci, vere magister es. salutem tibi a Mexico
Maximas gratias, Han! Benignissimus es. :) Et tibi salutem ex Arizona dico plurimam!
Você pronunciou as vogais nasais do Português muito bem!! Parabéns!!!
Muito obrigado! :) Infelizmente eu não falo português muito bem ainda. Mas eu adoro como vocês pronunciam M final em Latim! Está perfeito.
Por favor, registre algum latim algum dia. Quero ouvir como você, falante nativo de Português, pronuncia o final -M com eleições.
Posso fazer as gravações caso queira! Sou falante de português e meu número é: +5521972046031 (WhatsApp)
I can comunicante using english as a língua franca
Sou falante nativo de português e não consigo pronunciar o M assim em latim.
@@desiderioelielton2051 Duvido bastante… Em Português brasileiro, por exemplo, temos a palavra “sem”. Não importa o quão rápido se fale “sem ente”, NUNCA vai soar parecido com “semente”, mas sim como “seNHente”. Isto porque o M em “sem”, marca uma nasalização. Seria igual em latim, e é isso que o vídeo ensina.
Exemplos do M marcando nasalização em todas as vogais no Pt-Br: “ram”, “sem”, “sim”, “som”, “um”. O M final no latim soaria igual nessas palavras.
You should do audio books! Your voice would be perfect for that! 😃
I *do* do audioboks! 😃 Check them out! luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/
And thanks 🥰
In portuguese both m and n can become nasal sounds. This can happen when m or n is followed by a consonant or at the end of a word.
Thanks for this!! I've been looking for this explanation for weeks now. Thanks for all your work and devotion to latín language.
Thanks for watching!
El latín es más complicado de lo que creí, pero aún así lo seguiré aprendiendo. Muy buen video. saludos desde México.
No te rindas! Vale la pena aprender Latín, te lo aseguro.
Brilliant! I didn't realise how early nasalisation had happened, well before Vulgar Latin. I suppose that explains the presence of "cosul" and -u with no m even BC.
Indeed! It was definitely a part of pre-Classical Latin, and may have been present in other Italic languages. (By the way, what's your name?)
That would be fascinating, I didn't consider its presence in Oscan, Umbrian or Faliscan.
And my name's Sam! Or rather Samūēl, I suppose ;).
Salve, Samuel! :D
ScorpioMartianus Salve! May I ask what yours is?
It's Luke! Lūcius in Latin. :)
I appreciate your channel so much. Such a joy to hear Latin (I studied it back in high-school ,so no speaking/listening experience at all). And I love your thorough and scientific approach to the pronunciation ( I always missed that in school ... German Latin ).
In Classical Sanskrit, the final 'M is considered as Vowel...Nice to discover grammatical connections between Classical Latin and Sanskrit..
Wow! I watched your video all the way to the end 90% only reading the latin subtitles (some English needed). This is a lot better than I've ever done before. Thank you so much!
Well done!
Your channel is now my favorite! Keep up the good work!! (sorry for writing in english, my Latin is not good enough to write my own thoughts, at least not yet!)
Scrabbed by common people, the many inscriptions found on the wall of Pompeii can give us a hint of how Romans really spoke. The so called "casa degli amanti" (house of the lovers) takes its nickname from a graffito who says: "amantes ut apes uita[m] mellitam exigunt". Besides the irony of another hand having added a "uelle" beneath the line, the interesting fact is that the "m" of "uitam" is missing, and that's a good sign it wasn't actually pronounced. Thanks for the great video!
Great point!
Almost the same happens in an other classical Indo-European language: Sanskrit.
Nasalisation is called anusvāra (अनुस्वार) like- balam asti (बलम् अस्ति) or (बलमस्ति) balamasti “There is force" (asti=est)
No nasalisation. But: balaṁ sevate (बलं सेवते) “He uses force.” Nasalisation. Dot on the m (ṁ) in transliteration.
Yes exactly! Thanks for the comment. :) I haven't studied Sanskrit in many years but it is another invaluable comparison. Do nasal vowels mix with following vowels into one syllable in meter like Latin?
Yes almost exact as in Latin. The major exception with Latin is that there is no nasal sound before a pause. Like at the end of a sentence. Two vowels may mix into one. (vane'sti = is in the wood). But a nasal sound denasalizes before a new vowel and a m is added. (vanam asti - vanamasti = there is a wood) . Nasal sound plus ng before k or g. (vanaṅ-krīṇīhi = buy a wood). Nasal sound plus n before t of d and a pure nasal before s, v or h.
Ah, you mean there is liaison (as in French)? Please extend many more examples! :)
It seems nasalisation occurred in Protogermanic too. I'm almost ignorant about this matter, but I read verbs ending were reconstructed as *-aną, where ą represents [ã]. *-aną is from PIE *-onom, hence latin -um. Do all of this mean PIE *-om (and hence all *-Vm) was already nasalised ?
@@ScorpioMartianus well, luke, I bet you will find amusement about how similarly Latin and Brahmic pronounciation of the two… even Devanagari script surprisingly covers a feature (in ligature and glyph combination) that match not in hindi instead Latin (even it can disambiguate something like Quus=Kwus≠Ku'us)… I even wrote one of Cicero's work on Devanagari and find it amusingly applicable in some way :))
सेद उत पेर्स्पिक्यतिस। उंदे ऊँनिस इस्ते नतुस एर्रोर सित वोलुप्ततें अक्कुसंत्युं दोलोरेँक्वे लौदंत्युं। तोतं रें अपेर्यं एयक्वे इप्षा। क्वै अब इळो इंवेंतोरे वेरिततिस एत क्वासि अर्खितेक्तो ब्यतै वितै दिक्ता सुंत। एक्ष्प्लिकबो॥ नेमो एनिं इप्षं वोलुप्ततें। क्व्य वोलुप्तस सित। अस्पर्नतुर अउत ओदित अउत फुगित। सेद क्व्य कोंसेक्वुंतुर मग्नि दोलोरेस एयोस। क्वि रत्योने वोलुप्ततें सेक्वि नेस्क्युंत। नेक्वे पोर्रो क्विस्क्वं एस्त। क्वि दोलोरें इप्षुं। क्व्य दोलोर सित अमेत कोंसेक्वुंतुर अदिपिस्किवेलित। सुद क्व्य नों नुंक्वं उयुस मोदि तेंपोरा इंकिदुंत। उत लबोरे एत दोलोरे मग्नं अलिक्वं क्वैरत वोलुप्ततें॥ उत एनिं अद मिनिमा वेन्यं। क्विस नोस्त्रुं एक्षेर्कितत्योनें उळं कोर्पोरिस सुस्किपित लबोर्योसं। निसि उत अलिक्विद एक्ष उय कोम्मोदि कोंसेक्वतुर॥ क्विस अउतुं वेल एयुं युरे रेप्रेहेंदेरित। क्वि इं एय वोलुप्तते वेलित एस्से। क्वं निहिल मोलेस्त्यै कोंसेक्वतुर। वेल इळुं। क्वि दोलोरें उयुं फुग्यत। क्वो वोलप्तस नुळा पर्यतुर॥
अत वेरो एयोस एत अक्कुसमुस एत युस्तो ऊद्यो दिग्निस्सिमोस दुकिमुस। क्वि ब्लंदितिईस प्रैसेंत्युं वोलुप्ततुं दोलोनिति अत्क्वे कोर्रुप्ति। क्वोस दोलोरेस एत क्वास मोलेस्त्यस एक्ष्केप्तुरि सिंत। ओब्कैकति कुपिदितते नों प्रोविदेंत। सिमिलिक्वे सुंत इं कुल्पा। क्वि ओफ़िक्या देसेरंत मोळित्या अनिमि। इद एस्त लबोरुं एत दोलोरुं फुगा॥ एत हरुं क्विदें रेरुं फकिलिस एस्त एत एक्ष्पेदिता दिस्तिंक्त्यो॥ नाँ लिबेरो तेंपोरे। कुं सोलुता नोबिस एस्त एलिगंदि ओप्त्यो। कुँक्वे निहिल इंपेदित। क्वो मिनुस इद। क्वोद मक्षिमे प्लक्यत। फकेरे पोस्सिमुस। ऊँनिस वोलुप्तस अस्सुमेंदा एस्त। ऊँनिस दोलोर रेपेळंदुस॥ तेंपोरिबुस अउतें क्विबुस्दं एत अउत ओफ़किईस देबितिस अउत रेरुं नेकुस्सिततिबुस सैपे एावेन्येत। उत एत वोलुप्ततेस रेपुद्यंदै संत एत ऽओलेस्यै नों रोकुसंदै॥ इतक्वे एयरुं हिक तेनेतुर अ सप्येंते देलेक्तुस। उत अउत रेइकिंदिस वोलुप्ततिबुस मयोरेस अल्यस कोंसेक्वतुर अउत पेर्फेरेंदिस दोलोरिबुस अष्पेर्योरस रेपेळत॥
किकेरो॥
दे फिनिबुस बोनुरुं एत मलोरुं।
१।१०।३२ - १।१०।३३॥
it is Cicero's De finibus bonurum et malorum ('lorem ipsum')
With the final M pronounced it sounds more textbook-y and more erudite but without it sounds more like a native speakable language.
Magister bonissimus es! Hispanice: iam -> ya, sum -> so > soy
you nailed those japanese vowels.
Thanks so much! :D I lived in Tokyo for three years and I teach Japanese today. My pronunciation isn't perfect, but I do live Japanese!
whaaaaat! that's a surprise, I live in Kobe.
そうですか？！いいですね。 でも、日本人じゃないでしょう？どこの出身ですか？
ScorpioMartianus 北京出身です!今は留学しています。
Xiao'sChannel 素晴らしいですね！残念ながら、僕は中国語は全然分からなくて、ラテン語と日本語だけです。😄 それとも、色々ゆーロッパの言葉。
I loved that you added latin subs.
Para falantes de português é algo natural; difícil seria fazer diversamente. Destaque-se o til sobre o A & O (ã, ãs, ãe, ães, ão, ãos, õe, ões) primitivamente indicavam exatamente o M (ou N) final, provavelmente para economizar espaço no pergaminho ; tanto que em textos portugueses do século XVI-XVII, com uma ortografia não tanto padronizada, é fácil encontrar exemplos com o ~ sobre a 2ª vogal do ditongo nasal (aõ, aẽ).
Por outro lado, é perfeitamente compreensível a dificuldade de quem não tem esse som no seu sistema fonológico. Os falantes nativos de uma língua têm sempre suas vantagens e desvantagens. Em Roma, notava como os cônegos da Basilica de São Pedro dizem “Oremusᵊ, cantatᵊ...” ; falando em latim, dificilmente se conformam com uma consoante final desacompanhada...
Em muitos casos não é só um caso capacidade de produção - nós brasileiros percebemos perfeitamente o Th inglês com som de [θ] , mas não nos é fácil reproduzi-lo -mas até de percepção. Nossos vizinhos latino-americanos, por vezes, têm dificuldade em discernir a diferença entre B & V o que, para nós não comporta qualquer ambigüidade. Os exemplos são inúmeros.
What I find interesting is how "m" is used to take on this double identity (although n as in agiens also does yet arguably due to the ensuing s, also being quasi dental, and hence is less "pure" than m) since in Sanskrit, it's also the case, although there, sandhi (both intra and intervocabular) was on yet another level and their "dotted m" for nasalization can be any nasalized consonant that best approximates the tongue position of the ensuing consonant, or m with subsequent phoneme being vocal.
What one may conclude from that is: either proto Indo European really existed with a widely accepted alphabet (probably not true since Sanskrit alone has adopted so many, none of which being canonical), or the pronunciation habits of nasalized ending turning into m and not n or ng or what have you, in the event that subsequent phoneme is vocal is universal and practically immutable, or it's just a lovely coincidence 🤔
when i first heard that the m at the end was supposed to sound differently i was so confused, thankfully i now know how to say it. thanks bro!
Não falo latim, mas incrível como dá para entender 70% do que o Lucivs está a dizer.
Fixe!
@@ScorpioMartianus Ah-há, vejo que estás a aprender o português versão lusitânica.
@@barrigudo00 ahah de onde é você? Belem?
@@ScorpioMartianus "Terra Brasilis" mas gosto de utilizar as diferentes formas de conjugações de verbo e vocabulário luso-brasileiro. A língua é rica, tento explora-la.
@@barrigudo00 temos o mesmo pensamento quanto a isto 😮
sim, somos iguais 🤝
Your explanations are so clear - mille grAtias agO!
Ótimo esclarecimento.
Obrigado!
This if fantastic stuff. Thanks so much!
whoever does latin subtitles for this needs to ad macrons
That would be me. ☺️ I probably won't for this video for the near future, because it's extremely laborious and time consuming. Thanks for the suggestion though!
To start, I would like to say: that this was an amazingly helpful video. Just like the others regarding pronunciation, it was easy to follow and fun to watch. Since no video could cover every single edge case, I have to ask: can final -N also be elided? Say you had, for example, the phrase "egō nōn fugiō". Would the final -N be elided since it's followed by a fricative or does the rule only apply within one word?
That's one of the dialects of classical Latin. Some of the others don't nasalize nor elide the final m and vowels. I have been convinced of it due to spelling of classical Latin.
That is incorrect. This characteristic was true of pre-Classical Latin, thus any dialect you’re imagining would also have this trait. Read Vox Latina by Allen.
@@ScorpioMartianus For some reason I keep my own view on the subject, partly because it makes sense more than scriputal evidence. It is because of standardization as being more increasingly pronunciation pertaining than earlier standards, such as the ones that are fully truly right according to Vox Latina, and fully right they are, though in the long run, the hypercorrect pronunciation took sway, so to speak.
One of the dialects, in fact a sociolect. Other dialects were fully pronouncing the final Ms without eliding it, unlike in poetry and theater, though with and without the eliding of the final Ms. Conspectum est vs Conspectumst.
That is not correct.
@@ScorpioMartianus I believe both are correct. It's like the difference between standard and dialect English, Latin had multiple dialects in terms of pronunciation. The final m pronouncing superceded the older eliding nasalized dialect, since 200 BC until the end of Latin and beyond. I know you disagree, I'm just expressing my opinion.
@@Krystic111 It's not an opinion. It's well argued even by the Romans themselves that the final M was not a consonant. In none of the Classical or pre Classical latins.
My friend, I am finding your style of instruction to be so extremely facilitative for my language learning. Do you have a sequential curriculum somewhere? I would gladly throw much money at u if it means I get to flex truly conversational latin on all my other bookworm friends 🤝
Bene factum :)! Tibi auscultando melius sentio et eodem me facit velle ut latine loquar scribamque frequentius
Amazing video! I admire your dedication. Your channel will surely grow very soon.
Hindi has nasal vowels too which are phonemic they are written with ँ chandrabindu (dotted moon) above the letters. However only long vowel can be nasalised. For example - साँप sãp - snake, दाँत dãt - teeth. But if the long vowel is followed by a voiced consonant then it assimilates into it and becomes velar ng before k,g palatal ñ before ch, j dental n before t,d retroflex n before retroflex t,d and labial m before p,b. Short vowels aren't nasalised and the chandrabindu indicates homorganic nasal stops. Some Sanskrit loanwords in Hindi have word final short vowels with the chandrabindu for example एवं ēvã which is pronounced ēvam with is consonantal m probably because of the rule that short vowels don't nasalise. In Sanskrit short vowels were nasalised as well.
Thanks so much! Yes, the Indian languages also have a lot to offer us in understanding Latin, I believe!
You're wrong.
@@carterwood4197 -wrong- right
@@bletwort2920 Hindi and Sanskrit pronunciation are different. The anusvara is not a vowel nasalization, but a different sound. Anunasika (written with candrabindu) is something else, too.
@@carterwood4197 Maybe try reading my comment again.
This was great!, thank you
I’m glad the video was helpful!
Japonicus sum. So I only need to pronounce the final M almost like our ん as long as it’s not assimilated!? 🙌
Gratias! Pelliculas tuas amo! Magister optimus es!
Ita est! そう思いますよ！😊
Parla molto bene il latino. Dove hai studiato tutto questo? Valet!
Grazie! Ho usato LLPSI; vedi questo playlist di LLPSI che ho fatto. Per "ciao!" in valedizione si dice "valē!"
@@ScorpioMartianus, grazie mille! Valē!
I thought Latin didn't have nasal sounds, like most romance languages, and always wondered why my native language, Portuguese, had them
Afinal parece que as línguas românicas que não têm estes sons nasais é que são mais divergentes do Latim Clássico.
Linguam Latinam didici Ecclesiastica ratione enuntians litteras (observo tamen, quod quidem paucissimi faciunt qui hoc modo dicunt, longarum breviumque vocalium discrimen). Nunc vero discipulum habeo qui instaurata litterarum enuntiadarum ratione utitur, quamobrem operam do ut et ipse eam adhibeam. Mihi igitur de littera 'm' cogitanti, utrum semper eodem modo enuntianda esset, haud parum oppurtune occurrit pellicula tua. Gratias maximas ago! Operam dabo ut vitium dicendi cui assuefactus sum exstirpem.
Thank you for share, and to do this great video. For to go back in the time. 😃✨✨✍️📃
In Juvenal's hexameter "nocte iter ingressus, gladium contumque timebis" (Sat. 10.20), could you please clarify for me if 'noctem iter' should sound exactly the same as 'nocte iter'? Grātiās maximās prō tuō mīrō Latīnī studiō (conceptō in omnibus sēnsibus vocābulī).
Salvē! They will have the exact same rhythm of short and long syllables. If you’re able (as a Portuguese speaker you should manage it) nasalize the vowel sound between “noctem” and “iter”
In "noctem iter", vocalem nasalem creare possum, sed est fortisan facilius sensu naso tangedo quam sono audiendo. Hahae
Once again I can't believe you are american, for all americans I know tend to struggle with nasal sounds. But you... come on... it looks like you were born in a Latin speaking family! Congrats, man!
Ah, I forgot to mention: nice excerpt from Gustav Holst at the end of the video... Mars the Bringer of War.
Aw thanks! How nice of you. And yes haha I love that piece.
I was wondering: when -m is before a consonant, it remains a nasal consonant, that's fine and consistent. But is nasalizing anyway the preceding vowel still an option ? The result would be -ãm, -ãn, -ẽm and so on. Same question for any -VnC- where C is neither -s- or -f-. Thinking about it, I find weird that when nasalization occurs, the nasal consonant disappears, but when the consonant doesn't disappear, there is no nasalization. For example consul = /'kõ:sul/ and conditus = /'kõnditus/ instead of /'konditus/. Such a pattern looks much more consistent to me. Quae est opiniō tua?
My explanation is a bit messy, sorry about that.
Does this nasal pronounciation of the final -M extend to the Ecclesiastical pronounciation aswell? Do you have any literature on that to recommend? Thank you for your videos!
Hi there! It certainly can if you wish. Ecclesiastical isn’t a single idealized system, meaning you can alter it as you please, especially to conserve certain vital aspects of the language, like the elision of final -m as in Vergil multum ille, and to maintain phonemic long vowels.
@@ScorpioMartianus I see! I'm in the classical music and I have always heard that the final -M must be pronounced as "M" and not nasal. As most of the vocal classical repertoire are included in the Ecclesiastical pronounciation, due to it's time and historical context, I've wondered if the well pronounced "M" was a characteristic of the Ecclesiastical pronounciation or if actually the final -M should be pronounced nasally in classical vocal repertoire. Do you have any thoughts on that? Your videos have been really helpfull!
@@gustavosperlingYou can nasalize the final -m, but you would not elide it unless the composer decided to put elisions in the lyrics as in Italian opera.
In lingua britonica quoque vocales nasales utuntur; est orthographia ubi scribitur "ñ" post vocalem pro nasalitatem notando, e. g. _bezañ_ /ˈbe.zɑ̃/ "esse".
Can you please explain the final "M" on your English language channel for those of us who are not fluent?
I shall
Bem dito!
I was convinced ん was uvular except when it assimilated. I stand corrected. However, うん is not the /ɛ̃/ or the likes that I hear at 1:57 (basically like French "un"), but /ũ/ :).
Hi, I think I have noticed that in some of your more recent videos you tend to pronounce the M at the end of a word as an actual M rather than just nasalizing the vowel. I could just be crazy, but I think I have noticed it. Is there any reason for that? Just curious...
That’s an astute observation. I will pedagogically clarify that -m sometimes, and the rest of the time I close towards -m but turn off my vocal chords before the lips make contact. I don’t make the -m nearly as nasal and pronounced as I once did, since that creates a long vowel, and the Roman grammarians were clear that the -m made the previous vowel short (if nasal).
@@ScorpioMartianus
Thank you for the reply. I have a question: Why is a syllable with an -m coda considered a heavy syllable, if the -m is not a consonant and the vowel before it is short? Wouldn't it be a short nasal vowel, thus a light syllable?
@@andreasm5770 Good question
Salvē Lūcī, grātiās tibi prō pelliculīs tuīs, ūtilēs attractīvaeque sunt. Possīsne dē postclassicā prōnūntiātiōne linguæ latīnæ, quam Cōnstantīnus sīve Theodosius locūtī sint, pelliculam facere ? Quia nōn sciō num ut lingua prōto-rōmānica aut ut lingua latīna classica, aut ut aliquis aliud prōnūntiāta est. Grātiās tibi iterum agō, valē !
Awesome.
Portugal = Portus Calle. Gratia!
Like Portuguese! Cool!
Salve!
Do we know if everybody in classical Latin spoke this way, or was it an old-fashioned elite thing? And I suppose in Late Latin, the "nasal" -M simply became elided, as part of the general process of losing the accusative case?
Anyway, thank you for your video! Really changed the way I think about Latin pronunciation :)
Salve, Jip! :D As far as we can tell, there is ample evidence that this is a reasonably accurate representation of this sound in Classical Latin, and probably it was more severe than my conservative characterization. We can see from the record, in fact, that it is somewhat the opposite of what you propose (being an elision occurring in Late Latin), but in fact that these elisions and omissions of the final -M in writing are known from pre-Classical Latin inscriptions, and from older playwrights like Plautus and Terence, as well as during the 100 BC to 100 AD time of Classical Latin. But in very late Latin, into the mediaeval period, people begin to pronounce a final -M as if it were a real consonant, as a sort of hypercorrection. Something like this happened to modern English; the letter H sound was mostly lost in the time of Shakespeare, but was restored by the upper classes in the 1700s and 1800s. This is why American English still has "herb" without the "h" sound while the Brits tend to pronounce this "h" distinctly - the restoration was not complete for some of our American words.
Fascinating! The English H is an interesting case, and makes perfect sense now that you mention it.
The M hyper correction remains odd: AFAIK Late Vulgar Latin started losing its case system in favour of using articles like the modern Romance letters. So, murum (classical) - muru (Late) - le mur (French)
No doubt! But Classical Latin as a grammatical language remains intact among the educated in the later Empire while Vulgar Latin diverges exactly as you indicate. Thus the educated people start pronouncing the final -M as a true consonant while they speak proper Classical Latin, to distinguish themselves from the (equally) incorrect omission of the common folk in their pre-Romance Vulgar Latin.
An example of this can be heard in various hypercorrections in English than annoy me to no end. For example, a person with some education learns that "Me and him went to the store" is bad English, but they don't learn why - specifically that the direct-object pronouns are being used improperly instead of the subject pronouns. They simply believe the juncture "me and him" is always bad English. Thus they say, "This is the gift for him and I," instead of "me and him" which is the correct version. I can't count the number of highly educated people I hear make this egregious error! It really bothers me, haha.
I share the sentiment, I feel like my native language (Dutch) is changing for the worse. But in the end, language change is inevitable... Panta Rhei!
Thank you for your explanations! :)
Se tutti i professori fossero così...chissà quante vocazioni a studiare latino
I think it would make more sense saying "Lusitanica" instead of "Portogallica". "Portogallica" makes it sound like it's supposed to be some Gallic or French language.
Well at the end both the -gal in Portugal and the Gal in Gallica are both from Gaelic tribes :-) In Greeek you still say: Gallia and Portogallia
If the final M had a nasal pronunciation, why didn't the romans simply replace it with the letter N then, since N has a more natural nasal sound?
Example: SENATVS POPULUSQUE ROMANUN
Because that’s a different phoneme. Words like nōmen and agmen don’t have the same final sound as urbem and necem.
Kind like how you pronounce anusvāra in Sanskrit.
Hi Luke, how goes it? Hope well. Your videos are great and you’re so gifted. However, I have a question. How can you know these things if neither you nor anybody living today ever heard a native speaker of Latin? We are speaking of thousands of years ago. How could you ever possibly know that at some point in the developing of the language the “m” was elided or even pronounced like “n” as it currently happens in Portuguese? I would need to know the source for your statement. Have a good one! Zeke.
Hi Zeke, that’s a great question, which is why I made this video to answer it: th-cam.com/video/Ft8XUE7honc/w-d-xo.html
If you’d like to continue the discussion, leave me a comment on that video! Thanks.
@@ScorpioMartianus Thanks for such a kind and prompt response! Hopping over to that vid! Will catch up with you there! Big hug!
@@ScorpioMartianus Dear friend, I have a question, maybe very basic to you but I seem to not be able to wrap my head around: "he" is "ille" or "is" in Latin? I've seen some books in which "he" is presented as "ille" and in some others "is". For example: ille erat vs. is erat.... can you, please, shed some light? Big hug!!!! Zeke
Sed pronunciation germanicum (et slavicum) consonant est...
um in japanese the ん is actually delayed into a separate mora, and counts as a consonant (realized as [m]~[n]~[ŋ]~[ɴ] depending on what follows it)
source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology#Moraic_nasal
What is the pronunciation of a final M if the next word begins with a vowel?
Still nasalized.
It's pronuounced like a glide vowel right before the initial vowel of the next word.
Remains the question: Was this the original way to pronounce it, or had they become sloppy with the pronunciation already in classical times?
“Sloppy” is not a particularly useful term linguistically. French is not considered sloppy for having dropped many things other Romance languages kept. It’s simply evolution of language in a natural way.
It was this way in Latin at least since the pre Classical period in the 300s BC
Optime! Verba aurea! I see that N is nasalized before S and F. Are there any other situations where it does that?
I think final n is nasalized before l, r, and v as well. I often do this in my dialect of Latin.
Get some friends that speak Italian, or Portuguese or Spanish! You'll get a sense of that much quicker and you'll do it unconsciously.
Quī amictus est iste, quem in hāc pelliculā gerēbās? Unde eum ēmistī? Excūsā nūgās rogantem.
Tu loqueris valde bonum linguam latinam
Unde venit agnōmen hōc, "ScorpiōMārtiānus"?
Cum magna felicitate te dico: nunc intelligere possum quod dicis latine!
Brasilianus sum atque japonice quoque loqui possum
Latin & pilot sunnies. I cannot concentrate.
Just a quick question - how would the Romans have a word for 'Japan' or 'the Japanese' when they never encountered them? It's like an Anglo-Saxon knowing the word Vietnamese.
th-cam.com/video/XZT423ff9NU/w-d-xo.html
At -am, si quidem syllaba prostrema est, sicut -ão Lusitanice pronuntiatur.
Does this rule only apply to word-final m? What about m in the middle of words (before a consonant)?
Great question! Just to final -m
@@ScorpioMartianus Great, thanks. Two more questions:
1. You discussed how final m assimilates to the position of the next consonant. Is the proceeding vowel still a nasal: e.g. "cum murmure" or "cũm murmure"?
2. The letter n also assimilates to the position of the next consonant?
@@psonbell
Hi, I'm a Romance language speaker (Spanish). For exposition of this try hearing Portuguese to see how this works.
1. Yes, but slightly and shortly.
2. Yep. Spanish speakers do that naturally and we are one of the languages that nasalize the least, and considering Latin had a more severe nasalization it stands to argue, yes.
Have a spanish speaker say something with the word "pinto". Notice the i is nasalized a little and the N itself is almost inaudible.
Se il latino fosse insegnato in questo modo, almeno in Italia, il 60% avrebbe il latino come seconda lingua, e il restante 40% avrebbe una conoscenza passiva da buona a molto buona,
O Deus meus! I actually understood a lot of that!
Very interesting, but again providing sources for what you base this pronunciation on is needed, thanks.
You'll find all you need linked on my spreadsheet: bit.ly/ranierilatinpronunciation
Including books by JN Adams, Roger Wright, and Sidney Allen
valete, summas gratias
Pulchre doces
gratias Tibi ago
Et grātiam tibi referō!
Nice Italian accent
Grazie!
That is very interesting! I was always wondering where did our French nasal vowels came from. You say it's just your opinion but it seems credible to me because it explains something that was never explained before. But then why didn't they create letters to express these nasal sounds? One theory could be that these nasal sounds were not natural to Latin people but rather came from those non Latin speakers (Etruscan? Ligure?) who were forced to adopt Latin but in so doing brought into the language their own grammar influence and sounds they had in their previous language. Thus creating vulgar Latin which became the romance languages of today where as true Latin just became extinct. Similar process happened in England when Norman French was imposed on Saxons and Angles and it became English. And Norman French just disappeared and Germanic English ceased to be Germanic (in part). The same way we could say that Latin ceased to be Indo-European (in part). What do you think of that thesis? I didn't come up with it but it seems very credible to me.
Alliciens schola atque ad persuadendum apta!
Gratias, Pippo! (an Joseph, nonne?) Spero alios -M finalem nasaliter enuntiare - jam novi modo tres homines qui id faciunt Latine loquendo.
Iosephus sum in tabulis censoriis, Pippo in familia et apud amicos.
Intellexi! :)
Tū ēscūtūs famctūs de Cītatīs ēssē brasīlīa de mūssīcūs para ēgō.dē ædīfïcatūs Gæbrīēllūs tū llūchīūs.agora em português como ficaria funck.
YES....biysss
Este calvo me cae tan bien como el de Brazzers xD
As in portuguese
At one point you are probably wrong: before ns and nf the vowel was not nasalized, but a normal long vowel. That can be seen by inscriptions like "Herculens", where less educated writers didn't know when to put an n and where not.
I don't believe I am wrong for the educated speech of the 1st century BC. 😊 But surely this was a variant which became standard in the Romance languages later.
Oprime!!!
România, Î, ın ım...(Cyrillic)
I prefer saying lingua francogallica, but that's just me.
...Vlacho-Bulgarica?!
Even though your arguments for reconstructing the classical pronunciation appear convincing to me, I do hope that this addition will not be followed. Nasalization and erosion of final syllables happen in possibly all languages. Formally so or informally, as a language charasteristic or as personal prononciation. Native speakers easily adapt to a wide range of pronunciation variability, but for those poor souls trying to grab some understanding from communicating in a language foreign to them, anything deviating from the clearest pronunciation have a harder job decoding the spoken words.
Nasalization and reduction of the final syllables also decouples the orthography from the spoken language. For example, the videos here of the Lingua Latina PSI-chapters (aimed at beginners!) increasingly get interrupted by 'missing' syllables. Thus drawing away the student's attention from more important learning goals.
And why would we do it? That the Romans will understand us better is not an argument - they're all dead now and will remain so. How we pronounce Latin is but a choice and the Restored Pronunciation (with normal m's) is widely accepted and practised. What is the point in making that pronunciation less intelligible, even if it sounds more like heard 2000 years ago? For declamation of the poetry it is not really necessary and even if you disagree with that statement, it is not hard to make 'local changes' when reading poetry without burdening the whole language by adding these fine points to its pronunciation, that will it make harder to use.
Please don't promote it, a large share of the small Latin speaking community is watching you intently, and by this you are in the position to do a lot of good, but also to cause severe damage...
This is not an “addition,” it is fundamental to the Classical Latin language. If you don’t use a non-consonantal final -m (a nasalization of the preceding vowel specifically) then it is not Latin, but a conlang. You’re welcome to enjoying any conlang you like, but that’s not Latin. Latin does not conform to our aesthetic preferences. We must learn *it*.
Note that Japanese, Polish, and Portuguese, and French most famously, all have this feature, and it is yet more fundamental to Latin than it is to any of them.
Only in verse
Francogallicae
If ”original” latin actually used those nasal sounds, I do think that it is very much a pity, since I find nasal sounds very very ugly.
I understand your feeling here, as I used to share it; but over time I discovered that these biases were merely subjective based on my own lack of exposure to living languages today, some of which have nasal vowels and are decidedly very beautiful: Portuguese, Polish, Japanese, French, Sanskrit, etc. So I recommend you learn how this aspect of Latin phonology (which is indeed real and original in Classical Latin) functions in practice and incorporate it into your own recitations, because in short order you’ll discover it to be quite beautiful.
One may find Nordic languages “very very ugly” because they have a pitch accent component or for any other number of reasons; yet those who actually take the time to study it often find these erstwhile “ugly” traits to be their favorite part of the language.
@@ScorpioMartianus Many thanks for your reply! Well, I do have and have had exposure to french as well as portuguese (to some extent), and still, I find those nasal sounds unpleasent. This is why I find italian so much more beautiful than french. So, may it be right or wrong, I’ll stick to latin pronounciation without those nasal vowels.
There is no way Latin sounded like French. I don't buy it.
The nasal final -M of Latin doesn’t resemble French nasal vowels at all. It’s much more similar to Portuguese or Japanese.
Luke, as you recommend not to pronounce the final /m/ and prolong the preceding vowel to those who struggle to pronounce nasal vowels, don’t you think that pronouncing the velar /ŋ/ instead (as in English “song” /sɒŋ, sɔŋ, sɑŋ/) would be a closer approximation, e.g. /op.pi.duŋ/ and /di.kaŋ/? It’s not just out of my head, I remember seeing that in pronunciation dictionaries for some French loan words in English (/res.trɒŋ/, /kwæs.ɒŋ/, etc., they also listed the pronunciations with nasal vowels as well as fully anglicized ones, btw.) Frankly, though they’re different, they sound pretty close to my ears. 😉
You probably can, but you have to be careful not to make it sound like the way English treats the velar nasal. It's more like the way nasal vowels in Mandarin Chinese and Korean have the velar nasal. Otherwise, before s, f, l, r, or v, Latin nasal vowels are pronounced the way other Romance language speakers do it.
I have a few questions, to make sure I understand you correctly.
1. Are diphthongs affected as well?
eum = [ẽ̞ũ̯] ? [e̞ũ̯] ? or does final M indicate separate vowels [e̞ũ] ?
2. When final M is pronounced as a consonant, it gets dictated by the following consonant regarding place of articulation. So these examples are correct?
eum moneō
[e̞u̯m ˈmo̞.nɛ.o̞ː] (Labial non Fricative)
sīgnum templī
[ˈs̠iːŋ.nun ˈte̞m.pliː] (Coronal non Fricative)
memorem Jūnōnis
[ˈme̞.mɔ.rɛɲ juːˈno̞ː.nis̠] (Palatal)
dum conderet
[duŋ ˈko̞n.dɛ.rɛt] (Velar)
Excellent. One note is that eum is not a diphthong, but has two separate syllables e-um like e-ōs etc. In other words like Eurōpa it is a diphthongs.
Stupendous work!