What Classical Attic ACTUALLY sounded like 🤯 Vulgar Attic pronunciation (English & Latin subtitles)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
- What was the REAL pronunciation of the ancient Athenians in the 5th and 4th centuries BC? While Sydney Allen's famous VOX GRAECA is a useful start, we know the real story is MUCH more interesting, thanks to philologist Sven-Tage Teodorsson. But how different was it from the usual understanding the Restored Classical Pronunciation of Attic? It was crazier than you think! Watch and find out. Leave a comment if your mind was blown 🤯
ENGLISH AND LATIN SUBTITLES AVAILABLE (CC)
The bilingual Greek-Latin edition of Apologia Socratis on Amazon: amzn.to/43nbnqp
VOX GRAECA by Sydney Allen on Amazon: amzn.to/3qtoZSn
The long-form video on @polyMATHYplus • "Vulgar" Attic vs. Cla... that goes into much more detail.
Ancient Greek pronunciation playlist: • Ancient Greek Pronunci...
ει pronunciation: • Greek Pronunciation: ε...
Greek Pronunciation Chronology: bit.ly/ranierigreekpronunciation
🎙️ My patreon supporters can download the audio file of the four Attic Greek recitations plus PDF with IPA transcription here: / 84111180
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0:00 Introitus
1:09 Apologia Sōcratis
1:38 Exōrdiī exemplum Latīnē
2:27 Conservātīvī Varietās I
3:39 Conservātīvī Varietās II
4:21 Contiō dē ει
6:48 Innovātīvī Varietās I
7:27 Iōtacismus Dance Party! 👯♀️🎉
8:30 Innovātīvī Varietās II
9:13 Quid fit posteā?
12:13 ΠΑΝΤΑ ΡΕΙ
To thank my Patreon supporters, I have provided a downloadable audio file of the four Attic recations in the video along with a PDF of the IPA transcription of each: www.patreon.com/posts/socrates-in-4-of-84111180
🦂 Support my work on Patreon:
www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus"
learn.storylearning.com/lu-promo?affiliate_id=3932873
🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon:
www.patreon.com/posts/54058196
In terms of rich vocabulary, the ability to express yourself and narrate complicated text and sentences, and in term of just expressing yourself, which language is better, ancient (Attic) Greek or modern Greek?
Essentially all languages have this ability equally. It’s simply a matter of knowing how to use it. Most of the notion of richer or poorer vocabulary in any given language is mostly colored by misapprehensions.
@@ScorpioMartianus but is it not true that Greek (either ancient or modern, I am not sure) have been awarded the guiness record for having the most words?
Would you say that Attic Greek and spoken ancient Gothic languages of visigoths and Ostrogoths are in equal terms with regard to how rich they are, and so on?
If all languages have this ability equally, then why most of the scientific terminologies of all Indo-European languages rely on Greek/Roman words (Urinology, pathology, psychology, prognosis, diagnosis etc). Surely, if English or French language is on a par with Greek then they should not rely on loanwords, is this correct?
It would be interesting if you could make a video about etruscan and especially etruscan names in latin. I found that many romans had etruscan names.
Surprised that theta & Phi are said as a t & p rather than the "th" in thank & F. Was this the old pronunciation in archaic 800 bc greek? Seems like a lotta work to make a letter that is nearly identical to the t in pronunciation.
The fact that I can hear a guy born in my country THOUSANDS OF MILES from the Mediterranean talking WITH EMOTION in latin and attic greek is blowing my fucking mind and it's AWESOME
Thanks man, that’s really nice of you.
That's the Ranieri effect.
there are multiple accents and dialects of modern English. I would imagine the same held true for Classical Greek.
Indeed! The really fascinating thing is how dramatically they differ in Attic, and how unknown they are outside of Teodorsson’s analysis.
@@ScorpioMartianus some dusty old book says nothing under the sun is new. Everything we are experiencing today is the same as it was then; in its own way.
"Multiple dialects and accents of English" is a bit of an understatement.
But not “ modern” accents of Classical Greek.
The same holds true for ALL languages. Ancient and modern, all over the world 😎😎😎😎
This is crazy ...
I CAN UNDERSTAND 🤩 when ScorpioMartianus is giving the explanations in Latin.
I was studying Latin over 7 years in Gymnasium in Switzerland with several lessons each week, but we never SPOKE it as we treated it as a dead language. But thanks to ScorpioMartianus, Latin and Classical Greek are reborn! Awesome.
(I don't get the Greek parts, though, as I didn't learn classic Greek ... 😵💫)
This demonstration is stunning. It's frustrating how little emphasis phonology and pronunciation are given in most Latin and Ancient Greek classrooms. And thanks for the shoutout!
Thanks! And thanks again for making Apologia Greco-Latin edition.
Αύριο γράφω πανελλήνιες εξετάσεις στα αρχαία ελληνικά. Μετά από αυτό το βίντεο θα πάω με τεράστια αυτοπεποίθηση! Ευχαριστώ πολύ Λούκιε!
Promosso ?
Και εγώ έγραψα αρχαία πριν κάτι μέρες πώς σου φάνηκε το άγνωστο ;
The change of ε into an \i\ sound actually does exist in modern Greek, mainly some northern dialects. You can hear it a lot in Thracian, for example. It is generally associated with being a "Vlach" which is really just a derogatory term implying someone is like a "villager" or from the countryside. The associated stigma made the overall accent in those dialects subside quite a bit. However, the extent of this phonemic shift can still be seen in the older generations or in traditional poems/songs.
Ironically, there are other dialects that have experienced reduced levels of iotacism. In Pontic Greek and to a lesser extent Cypriot Greek, η is pronounced as \e\ or \ε\, and for specific words in Tsakonian and Cypriot Greek, υ is pronounced \u\ instead.
I think it's also important to distinguish between a "Vlach" with capital and "vlach" in lowercase. As the first is a speaker of the Vlachic language that evolved from vernacular Latin. While the second is the one meaning "villager" and the one where speakers say /i/ instead of /ε/.
According to G Horrocks, in Pontic, the [e] might be a result of vowel weakening instead of some kind of retention, given that even historical/etymological ι, ει, οι and υ are sometimes pronounced as [e], and also there are [o] weakened to [e], like in «άλεγον» and «όνεμα». If it is the case, then the η must have undergone iotacism before it is further weakened. See Greek, A History of the Language and its speakers, p400
I understood all of this video, which can only mean one of two things: Either my time with LLPSI finally comes to fruition or I've seen so many videos of you talking about ancient Greek pronunciation in English already that I can infer what you are saying by context clues alone..
That’s awesome!
I'm a Rome nerd, but I'm almost entirety focused on the facial hair journey content.
🧔♂️
So the phonetic system evolved into (almost) modern Greek pronunciation twice independently? Fascinating to say the least.
Yeah, partially, and in some weird ways too as you saw. But no fricatives (minus sigma), so it’s weirdly familiar but very different at the same time.
@@ScorpioMartianus So like how Cypriot Greek redeveloped double consonants and germination but in different letters.
Just before I watch the whole video, I must say thank you for putting full lenght videos like this.
You’re welcome! If this is very popular I’ll do more.
ever more wonderful Luke! it's a joy to watch your videos along with the rich information providing.
Though here I'd add that Theodorsson has met criticism from the very beginning, and I really felt very strange many years ago, when starting this time travel, reading his stuff.
A good and concise review by the late Anna Elbina Morpurgo Davies (long name!) clarifies some things about how seriously Theodorsson's views have to be taken. C.f. "Review of Theodorsson, The phonemic system of the Attic dialect 400-340 B.C."
Χαῖρε!
Χάριτάς σοι, ὦ βέλτιστε Ἰωάννη, οἶδα! Πρός σε διὰ τοῦ Προσωποβιβλίου, ὡς λέγεται, ἔγραψα.
Thanks for posting Luke! ❤ the hat👍
Excellent video! The iotacismus song made me laugh out loud!! 😁😁😁
Thanks, my man! More of that to come.
1:08
"Mars, Bringer of War" - Gustav Holst.
The man responsible for the infamous "Black Sabbath" intro.
As a M.Greek native speaker I always found the pronunciation somewhat off. My main confusion was iotacismus. Your pronunciation (Lucian) and these varieties that are presented in this video lend prestige to the language. The same thing makes me find the Classical Latin pronunciation more "commoving" or exciting. Also I believe that if you delve into the main Greek Dialects you'll find little "ψήγματα" or residues of the older form of A.Greek present in the Modern "rural" language. For example the Greek-Cypriots use the word "ζ'νίχι" for the back of the neck, that comes directly from the Medieval Greek "ζινίχιον". Personally I know some words from another dialect "Arvanitika" that as Aromanshe took many loan words from Vulgar Latin and all those things sometimes have been kept untouched in 'τοπωνύμια' as we say it here. Anyway you've transferred me your passion for some "Immortal languages" and Gratias tibi ago Optime Magister Luci!!!
Χαίρε πολύ, Δημήτρη! Ευχαριστώ. I’m glad you liked the video. It’s also wonderful to know that there are Greeks who support the exploration of reconstructed pronunciations of the ancient language.
Arvanitika is not Greek, it is Albanian, that's why the Arvanites can understand Albabian whereas the true Greeks can not.
@@bentspoon1805 Yes I agree, resembles somewhat of Medieval Albanian, just like knowing Standard Greek and reading works like "Erotokritos". But generally you should not generalize and characterize nationally a group of people just because they speak another language.
@@dimitrisnikolaou1387 Did Bent Spoon do that?
@@dimitrisnikolaou1387tuo myth
Thanks for the IPA transcription of the Greek pronunciations!
Great video, I like all the clear explanations and I really like the setting where you filmed it. How many alligators did you have to fiight off during filming? 😅 Great stuff! Thanks!
Thanks, Jason! Haha only a few bucks, but when they brandished their tiny spring antlers I told them to take a hike.
Interesting stuff! Please consider doing a tutorial about digamma.
Iōtacismus dialectī Atticae Vulgāris mihi rīsum valdē movet! Mīmēmata tua valdē jocōsa sunt!
Et mihi!
Do you know anything (and if yes, could you make a video concerning it?) about the hipothesis of early fricativisation in certain non-Ionnic dialects of ancient Greek (especially the ones of Ηλεία and possibly of Macedonia as Hatzopoulos supposes?).
very interesting video 👏 😍 thank you
Thank you very much for Latin subtitles
Io sono italiano e capisco il 70% di quello che dice in latino, è incredibile 🙈
fr
Yo también siendo argentina.
@@aylen7062 es algo fascinante, me flipa! 😆. Si en el colegio italiano enseñaran el Latino como lo enseña ese genio en tan sólo 1 año todos los alumnos hablarían y entenderían Latino. Al contrario matan a los chicos con clases aburridas.
@@miquel4529 Sí. Y también amo que pude leer y captar tu comentario en italiano sin saber hablarlo. Interesante cómo entre las lenguas romances, principálmente en lo escrito, nos podemos entender bastante. Creo que el latín de Luke se entendió bien fue porque a diferencia de la mayoría de angloparlantes, pronuncia bien todos los fonemas y habla de forma relatívamente natural y aún así despacio, sin distorsionar todo por la fonología de su lengua materna.
@@aylen7062 totalmente de acuerdo contigo. Además me hizo entender que en los colegios italianos se estudia el latin medieval/eclesiástico y no el latin clásico... osea los profesores nos estafaron 😆
6:51 something similar is an actual feature of many non-urban dialects of Modern Greek; unstressed /o/ and /e/ are realised closer to [u] and [i]. This feature is often made fun of by speakers of the standard dialect.
As a Greek speaker the modern variant is the one that makes more sense to me and its the one im familiar with.
Attic Greek and Latin influenced Castilian Spanish. I think your pronounciation in Spanish at this point must be close to perfect if you master those sounds.
That’s very kind. I have a pretty strong accent in Spanish.
@@ScorpioMartianus Oh interesting, I take your word for it, but honestly when I hear you utter some words like it is like I hear native Spanish. A trick would be speaking Spanish from Latin, instead of from English. "Gratias" in Latin sound exactly like "gracias".
This is standard Castilian accent, and an interesting video: a scientist, and a priest - and rapper as well - having a discussion about God. 3nQ7x0nKCSM
@@cing9545It influenced all of Spanish, not just the Castilian dialect. All dialects have the same common origin, and all differ in the same way with the Old Spanish, both in pronunciation and vocabulary. So at present there really is no Spanish closer to the "original", the "most classic", although it is a somewhat widespread idea that the castilian dialect is the most "pure"
@@Panambipyhare Me lo dices o me lo cuentas, que soy andaluza xD What does it have to do with anything, it was a message aimed at the video creator, because I think that yes, the Latin and Greek pronunciation are pretty similar to Castilian Spanish in sounds and all, perhaps other dialects have slightly different influences, but Castilian in general vs Latin Spanish is what I am talking about, so I chose a clip where he can see this.
I just adore this channel
Thanks for being here!
I took Greek at university to help my GPA (being a native Modern Greek speaker). The first lesson was " η γυνή ψυχή έχει" - the American professor pronounced it "Eh Gooneh Psooheh Eheh" (which was of course correct for ancient Greek), but I nevertheless spit out my coffee in laughter. I still got a A
Haha. Yes, it depends how the ancient pronunciation is done; most of the time (and very likely your American professor did this), the theoretical pronunciation is so hideously tainted by native English phonotactics and oral posture that it’s certainly nothing I would recommend (thus you are generous for calling it “correct”), and such pronunciations are rightly laughable.
I too have English language tendencies that appear in my Ancient Greek pronunciation, but hopefully they are less prominent, allowing the goal of the theoretical pronunciation to be heard somewhat clearly.
I learned Latin an Ancient Greek in school, with for a German speaker convenient pronunciation. It was useless for reading Homer and Ovid, though. It never fell into place, never sounded round and right, and decoding hexameters and pentameters was a pain, like biking on cobble stone, stumbling through text.
Which variant would you suggest for the finest sound of epic poetry, both Greek and Latin?
Amazing mustache, Luke!
So which version of Attic contributed to Koine. Thank you for this very informative video. Eye opening for me
Hi Steve, I go over that in detail here: th-cam.com/video/BybLbHPU7Qc/w-d-xo.html
tl;dw the conservative subsystem
My first exposure, and consequently my preference, was the one from Reading Greek CDs, and I go out of my way to pronounce iota subscript diphthongs and other bells-n-whistles features, as they recommended. Otherwise, I'll forget they're there, or the word will make less sense in my head (tragoidia vs tragodia). I found it difficult to learn, especially since English isn't my first language, but it was well worth the effort. I gather my recitation would be close to yours, at least as far as the gap in experience allows it?
Authenticity aside, the only pronunciation I find impossible to follow is the one from modern Greek, because it made most vowels and diphthongs sound the same and mutate b into v. There's a reason it evolved like that, but I already juggle alphabet and really complex verb system and dyslexia, so anything that doesn't ease comprehension is meaningless.
And then Spanish turned its “v” into a “b” and in Castilian has almost the same phonology as modern Greek!! 😂 (Enough at least to drive a Spanish speaker crazy thinking they should be able to understand it when they can’t!)
Είσαι αξιοσέβαστος. Έχεις κατορθώσει να αναβιώσεις το δίγαμμα των αρχαίων ελληνικών.
In watching this I feel both smarter AND like a 1st Century BC student who is most definitely not going to be in suo anno.
Thank you Thank you for your distribution to this super language
You have to admire this guy's focus and passion for his subject.👍
When did theta change from your "t" pronunciation in your video to the "th" used today?
Here you go: th-cam.com/video/5lcIcYFveII/w-d-xo.html
But if I pair /ei/ in their etymological places with -oio in the 2nd declension genitive singular, would that sound less offensive?
Not really, since they had all merged to /eː/ in pre-Classical times. Their etymology is an interesting curiosity, but doesn’t have an effect on the final result of the universal merger.
But if you actually wish to restore pre-Classical Greek, you can, but you have to do a lot more than just two places in the declensions. A fun experiment. But then it’s not of use to the goal of most who work with AG
Epsilon /e/ to /i/ persists in Modern Greek as a low-prestige dialect characteristic, to my knowledge found in northern and Anatolian variants.
Please tell us that there is a full version of the 7:27 Iotacismus Dance Party video! 🤣
I think I’ll make it 🎉
Can anyone please help me with a fragment of Aristotele?
(Going from Greek 101 to this was sort of overwhelming).
I also have trouble with the word: διωρισθω, which is in the next paragraph (which is the conclusion).
Thanks in advance.
Αλλ ωσπερ ην καλουσι τινες στιγμην,
η μια καi δυο, ταυτη και διαιρετη.
Η μεν ουν αδιαιρετον, εν το κρινον εστι και αμα,
η δε διαιρετον υπαρχει. Δις τω αυτω χρηται σημειω αμα:
Η μεν ουν δις χρηται τω περατι, δυο κρινει και κεχωρισμενα,
εστιν ως κεχωρισμενως:
Η δε ενι, εν και αμα.
With the translation as a guide:
But regarding this there is a good [explaination] namely [the] dot.
One or two, this and [that which is] halfable.
On the other hand [that which is] not halfable, [which exists] in parts and αμα.
Or rather [is it the] case [that the] parts overrule. Two examples ~we have~
Either it is the case [of] two ~pieces?~, two parts and locations,
which is separate.
Otherwhise it is one, one and αμα.
Meaning: A thing cannot be one and multiple at the same time.
It is either the case that it is one solid, or one which is made of multiple parts.
In case it is made of just one part, it is but a mere part (and αμα)
Otherwise it is many parts which form a whole.
For example Two parts are also in two sepparate locations,
therefore it inhabits multiple places.
It cannot be one and (αμα)
Αλλ: however
ωσπερ: regarding
ην: In such case [?]
καλουσι: beautifull/fitting so called [?]
τινες: this/certain,
στιγμην: dot/mark
η: A.k.a,
μια: one
καi: and
δυο: two
ταυτη: this
διαιρετη: halfable (can split into two pieces)
μεν: wheter (in this context)
ουν: it is
αδιαιρετον: unhalfable
το κρινον: the parts
εστι: are
αμα: ???
υπαρχει: to govern/superimpose
δις: two
τω αυτω: itself (Lit: regarding himself)
χρηται: ???
σημειω: sighn
τω περατι: on this subject/regarding this
κεχωρισμενα: Khoris means location hence I deduced the meaning to be 'separate parts'
wc: what is
My interest is this; how was the Greek of the New Testament pronounced?
Koiné Greek has a wide variety of dialects from the more Classical sounding Romaic Lucian to the more innovative Antiochene pronunciation. Luke discussed this on his other channel Polymathy.
May I ask what font you use throughout your videos? The serif one, that is.
Gentium font. I love it.
@@ScorpioMartianus Thanks, it does look very nice and seems to support a vast array of characters and diacritics.
Just to be clear at 8:00, while loss of long vowels would surely have collapsed Greek pitch accent, phonemic vowel length are not mandatory for a pitch accent system. A pitch-accent language is defined as a language where at least one Tone may (or may not!) be assigned to a certain vowel or mora of the word. Pitch of each syllable is then determined by grammatical rule based on the position/absence of grammatical tone. In Ancient Greek, the moraic placement of this tone relies on vowel length to be distinctive (as it's usually described) resulting in highs, lows, and falls by rule. Swedish, meanwhile, does have some long and short vowels, but they don't matter for pitch accent-the stressed syllable, which just needs to be heavy, can receive one of two tones. Turkish lacks any vowel length and has a minimal pitch accent system. In brief, if one syllable receives tone, itself and preceding syllables are high, following are low; in many words, there is no tone and the word is level.
I enjoy all your videos on Greek pronunciation history, as a student brought up on a bog-standard Erasmian variety. I just thought viewers would be interested to know more about pitch-accent considered broadly, since we're already being quite technical!
I know this is off topic and not related to the restoration of vulgar attic greek but the handlebar stache and the hat suits you good
I really like how you ranted about ει again
Quando Paulus locutus est cum Athenensibus, quomodo pronuntiationes Pauli et Athenensum dilatae sunt?
Koinē Graeca lingua franca imperiī Rōmānī erat et varietātem dialectōrum habuit sīcut lingua anglica et Graeca hodierna.
i noticed that the /s/ sound is actually retracted like modern greek, how do we know that? also it would be great if you could talk about the pronunciation of zeta in these 4 varieties.
Great observation! Here you go: th-cam.com/video/NqbV6bLpC-U/w-d-xo.html
Zeta could have been any of the three I think: th-cam.com/video/fiSGxDV3JIQ/w-d-xo.html
@@ScorpioMartianus thanks
Bro is a hardcore youtuber to go back in time to find a native latin speaker to precisely describe greek pronounciation.
The Latin spoken seems to have little relation to what I learned in school, which used the Anglicized version of Latin. The Anglicized version has little relation to how the language was actually pronounced.
It's like Greek via Australian conquest. This is all so very confusing to me at this hour. The only thing I truly know is...nice stache.
Standard modern Greek pronunciation is the pronunciation that prevailed in modern Greek speakers. However, it is not the only pronunciation of modern greek. There are still many dialectal pronunciations in Greece and until the 19th century there were even more. For example, the now extinct "Old Athenian" modern greek dialect and pronunciation were quite different from standard modern Greek language and pronunciation.
Also, there are modern greek speakers of northern greek dialects who still replace ε sound with ι sound in words. For example, listen to those grannies from Lesbos island who speak with their local pronunciation:
th-cam.com/video/-3ZaZRM7Dko/w-d-xo.html
Quit est recta pronuntiatio Graeci in novum testamentum?
Ecce tibi: th-cam.com/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/w-d-xo.html
Just to clarify, the one Wiktionary labels as 5th BCE Attic is the first conservative version. And so is the one spoken by Podium Arts. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Absolutely right! Like I say in the video that reconstruction is perfectly valid. There may be more nuance going on though even in the conservative subsystem, if we follow Teordorsson’s conclusions.
@@ScorpioMartianus Thank you for the clarification 🙏
I wonder how my Sicilian last names from Nebrodi near Messina were spoken initially ( Paparoni Micale)
Υοur work in Greek linguistics is far more accomplished (and useful) than that of most modern Greek academics established in the universities of the Greek state.
Thank you for all you have done in enlightening us about the language of our ancestors and how it evolved through the ages and the time of the Glory of Byzantium in what we speak now (when we do not speak GRenglish of course as most of the modern Greeks tend to do).
Τhis new video really set the record straight as far as Classic Attic pronunciation(s) is/are concerned.
EYΧΑΡΙΣΤΩ ΣΕ ΦΙΛΕ ΙΤΑΛΙΩΤΗ!
Χαίρε πολύ. Χαίρομαι πολύ που βρήκες αυτό το βίντεο χρήσιμο, αν και δεν πιστεύω ότι αξίζω τέτοιους επαίνους. Ευχαριστώ για το ωραίο σχόλιο.
@@ScorpioMartianus Αλήθεια μόνον έγραψα. You produced a video in beautifully sounding Latin, fully understandable to ANYONE who wants to learn about how people spoke in Attic dialect but lack an educational background in either history or linguistics and therefore are averse to complex lectures... it is a video clip that I can send to a lot of people and encourage them to think and read more about ancient Greek... it is exactly the kind of motivational material that we need and this is why I characterised it as "USEFUL".
And I liked the Latin of it as well since despite being Greek, I have an Italiote connection myself as I was born in NEAΠΟΛΗ/NAPOLI in Posilipo/ΠΑΥΣΙΛΥΠΟΝ so I find quite likeable and intriguing to speak in Latin about ancient Greek!
Perhaps one other time you may make a video about GrecoRoman connections of toponyms and terms... for example the word Οφφικιάλιος in Byzantine Greek that is "Official" coming directly from Latin etc.
ΥΓΙΑΙΝΕ!
you realise that ALL that he says has been researched by other men, right?
and the whole thing about "your ancestors" ... cringe
@@Uriel333 Why? Are you one of those who assert ancient Greeks were blond blue-eyed Aryans, quite unrelated to modern Greeks?
“Attic” in English is the noun for the highest space in a house, that which is above the ceiling and below the roof.
It’s also the word for the people and the language of Attica.
@@ScorpioMartianus It turns out the English word is derived from that Greek region! The etymology, according to Wikipedia:
“The word ‘attic’ is derived from the Attica region of Greece and comes from Attic style architecture. The term referred to ‘a low decorative façade above the main story of a building’ and, as used in the phrase ‘attic order’, had originally indicated a small decorative column above a building's main façade.”
been a while since I watched a vid all of a sudden man's rocking a stache and a big ol hat, it sure is a look
I can't believe my ears that I understood everything, 35 years after school! I should think about an advanced course, when I have money again...
Wow! I never thought I’d hear Latin spoken with such ease and fluidity! I realized I could understand most of it, since my studies of a long long time ago. So there you go, I must have had some excellent teachers! But I also studied ancient Greek, both classical and Homeric, and later taught myself some modern Greek. And it’s fascinating to hear about these different accents, dialects and pronunciations. Just think of how many different pronunciations there are of English today, even within the UK, even within England proper (south of the border), even within London itself! - The story about the conservative influence of the Macedonians was new to me, at least on the linguistic side (it was also politically, of course).
- But there is one thing that cannot be right about 5th or 4th century BCE Greek. Unless I’ve missed something, the υ and the η could never have BOTH been pronounced as ι (iota). That would have confounded two very basic and essential words in all four cases: υμεις/υμας/υμων/υμιν (you plural) and ημεις/ημας/ημων/ημιν (we, us) which would sound exactly the same. No language would ever allow this. So never would those two basic words have been pronounced the same, and therefore never would the υ and η both be pronounced as iota at the same time as long as those two words for we and you were in use. And there were other essential words where pronouncing those two letters υ and η identically would have created confusion in communication. The merging could only have happened once the language had evolved to using different words for we and you, as in modern Greek: εμείς / εσείς, εμάς/εσάς, which cannot be confused. Now if I’m wrong about this, please correct me.
For those who are interested in this kind of thing, there’s a fascinating Table by Luke Ranieri (yes, THE Luke) that traces the changes in pronunciation of the different ancient varieties of Greek up to the modern day, given what we are able to know, mainly from spelling errors at the time. - In a similar way, this is also how we know that later, during Roman times, say in the 1st c. BCE or CE, the Greek φ was still pronounced as an aspirated p’h and not as an f, because the Romans did have and use f but did not transcribe φ as f but as ph. For θ and χ it was surely the same but the proof is harder as the Romans did not have the sounds that correspond to English th or German ch, which modern Greek does. - Regarding the φ evolution, it’s interesting to see that something similar happened with… Vietnamese! The Vietnamese do not use the letter f but they have the sound, which they write as ph. Why? As far as I know, when the first (Portuguese) Jesuits came to evangelise Vietnam back in the 16th century, and romanized their writing whichbwas using a form of Chinese characters (Nôm), the Vietnamese were still pronouncing the ph as they do today in China, as a strong aspirated p’h. But as has happened in many languages, this p’h slowly evolved towards a kind of pf (as in ancient Germanic!) which then softened to f. A common story. Fascinating, eh?!
Cheers! And thanks for an amazing video. An excellent way to freshen up one’s Latin. Why not do the same with Sophocles’ or Plato’s Greek? In whatever pronounciation you choose - as long as it doesn’t confound ημεις and υμεις! 😊
Thanks! I’m really glad you like the video. I’m also pleased you like my spreadsheet, though it needs some updating. My more recent research is here: th-cam.com/video/5lcIcYFveII/w-d-xo.html
As for the iotacism, you’re absolutely right: if that actually happened, it means the people using such a pronunciation would make all kinds of accommodations in grammar and vocabulary just to be clearly understood, much as has occurred in Modern Greek. So it’s very very unlikely that Plato or other authors would have spoken in that manner, much less Socrates who is depicted as speaking in the Apologia. I used that text just because it’s a sample of Attic from the 5cBC.
Thanks for the comment!
I think there´s a misunderstanding there: Makedonians spoke greek the same as anyone else, but teaching greek to all the peoples they´ve conquered, must have been hell for the conquered people, since it´s a very difficult language. So they adopted the so-called "conservative system 2" that transmits also all the orthography-information additionally, and lacks the diphthogg-sounds, that have to be learned separately otherwise... But imho, the conservative system wasn´t ever used by Greeks, even Makedonians (never heard of a "makedonian" language), or Romans, who have all learned greek already centuries ago, volontarily, unlike the conquered peoples of Alexander´s empire, who spoke much less greek, and were forced to learn it fast, after being conquered (for dealing with the greek administration)...
Seriously, thank you for making this video entirely in latin. See ya.
Mirum! ❤🔥
That's a real display of linguistic competence!
Nice of you to say. I have a ton to learn. I’m mostly specialized in phonology changes, my passion.
To humble competence - find that morphological solutions to old/previous meanings are more satisfying than etymological ones and which seem ever open to question.
Σε χαιρετώ και σε ευχαριστώ!!!
Οι Θεοι μαζι σου!!!
An interesting thing about Greek is how little its pronunciation (and even grammar) has changed in several thousand years. This video was excellent, somehow I managed to keep up with the Latin even though I've never studied it!
I do wish there was some consensus on which pronunciation to use for ancient Greek, tending towards something more akin to modern Greek, simply because we might get a lot more people actually using it like you are using Latin.
I’m really glad you like it.
As for Modern Greek, both its pronunciation and grammar are radically different from Ancient Greek. The few similarities between the two are mostly superficial, to the point where Italian actually retains more from Latin than MG in AG. Case in point: Italian has the infinitive, while MG has eliminated it completely.
7:45 "Atque omnes quondam diphthongi fiunt monophthongi [...] /aw/, /iw/ - I can't help but think that Scorpio has a somewhat limited understanding of diphthongs since he mistakenly classifies /aw/ and /iw/ as monophthongs rather than recognizing them as diphthongs. I'm really quite surprised to hear such a statement from him.
Haha. No, I am well versed in this subject. While /au̯/ is a true diphthong, /aw/ is a false diphthong. A diphthong is two vowels (or more) in one syllable, where one of the two vowels is non-syllabic, represented by the curved line under the u you see in the example of /au̯/. Meanwhile /aw/ is a vowel followed by a consonant, and is therefore not a diphthong, but a monophthong. Acoustically, /aw/ sounds very similar to /au̯/, but functions differently.
For example, αὔω is /au̯ɔː/ in IPA. The first syllable /au̯/ is long, as all diphthongs are long (they “make position” as is said). But this changes in Greek, thus as the final vocalic element becomes consonantal, we might write it /awɔː/, but then this would indicate a short first syllable. Long before Ancient Greek loses phonemic syllable and vowel length, we would instead expect /awːɔː/, that is a double-consonant sound, which preserves the syllable length. This kind of compensatory lengthening is very common in Ancient Greek, Latin, and many other languages.
There is a noticeable acoustic difference between /au̯ɔː/ and /awːɔː/, the latter being more “w-ish” to the ear. This transition from the true diphthong to the false diphthong (monophthongization) is a necessary step before the w-sound, which is an approximate, becomes a fricative, as it is in Modern Greek.
I hope you now understand this important subtlety, and that I have restored your faith in my erudition.
"Oro vos, oro vos, /e:/ aut /i:/ dicere" LOL
Quam pulchram pelliculam fecisti, amicissime. Macte mactissime!
Amice Lucie, penso non esse tantas differentias inter systemata Allen et illius professoris. Et Allen in suo libro dixit jam in saeculo IV pronuntiatione ει in ι esse. Est autem logicum brevem sonum ε habere i pronuntiationem.
Quod novum audiui in tuo excellentissimo video sunt haec tres pronuntiationes in classicis Athenis. Volo cum maxima cupiditate istum librum legere.
So professor Crawford speaks Latin fluently. Nice
🤠
Euge! Nuper cupidinem spectandi pelliculam tuam latinam habebam, et subito magister hanc pelliculam veram tradit! Gratias plurimas, optime magister, pro tuo constanti flumine auxiliorum latinae discendi!
Grātiās tibi referō!
Euge means great in Latin?
In Modern Greek we use: "Εύγε" to mean: Bravo, Great, Good, Wonderful, Well Done!
I know it was used in Ancient Greek as well. Do you know if there is any relation?
The education is high in the far away continent of Australia. Love it!
Haha, actually I can name a few great great scholars living today in the Land Down Under. I, unfortunately, cannot be counted among them.
Rocking the stylish I see.
Greek and latin follow the same roots and paths we call linguistics mutualism, ancient greek=ancient latin, classical greek=classical latin, vulgar greek=vulgar latin. All greek's dialects influenced ALL latines dialects and vice versa, it's the why greek and latin have many dialects and accents in history til today, they ARE married idioms in fact in ALL ways.
I like the first conservative one.
I like how you sometimes have a slight, but well noticable, pitch accent when speaking latin. Probably very much like latin had it.
It could be a mix of my native English or influence from Italian, or something else altogether. In any case, I’m glad you like it.
You can speak LATIN fluently?
It appears Attic Greek had more vowels than today's Modern Greek, and that there are many ways to spell words in Modern Greek because of that, Orthography wise, so does Modern Greek orthography does not face the problem English has where one vowel letter has many different ways to pronounce?
Modern Greek does indeed face a similar problem, as does French. In the case of Modern Greek, you can recite pretty much any MG text and always produce the right sounds of the letters just following the pronunciation rules; it doesn’t trick you with things like in English “through though rough cough dough” etc where the same series of letters has unpredictable outcomes.
Sī έψιλον iam ut ιώτα prōnūntiatur eō temporē Athēnīs, significatne ut nōn vērum sonum "e" vel "έψιλον" erat illō dialectō?
Secundum Teodorsson, αι stābat prō /ε/
Valde incredibile hoc!
Interstingly, in modern Greek from rural places some of those changes occur too, and even more innovative ones, For example: "Το 'φερε ο Βλαχος το τυρί" becomes "Το 'φιρ ο βλάχuς το τυρί"
Amazing!
Salve! Bona pellicula, laudo te! Autem, consilius meus est ut facias nova pellicula de vocalibus cum tonis, nam nequeo bene intellegere quomodo eis uti oportet. Gratias tibi ago, magistre!
Damn, Dr Jackson Crawford?
I’ve actually been doing the cowboy thing a long time th-cam.com/video/FxDv-Td7N7E/w-d-xo.html
But it’s true, my friend Jackson Crawford has often been an inspiration.
ε = i? Are you kidding?
Ваша страстность восхищает.
you know, about the [ei] case. Looking at Dutch where [e:] and [ei] are in dialectical variation. (Belgians tend to say [e:] whereas the Dutch tend to say [ei]). Similarly, in Leeds the English [ei] is pronounced [e:]. I wouldnt at all be surprised if some dialects did have [ei] for ει. Considering the spelling convention originated in Ionian, who is to say that Ionian didn't pronounce it as such.
Except that there is no evidence for this in Attic Greek (or elsewhere); indeed, all the evidence, including in Ionian, points against a diphthong and only to a monophthong from the 6cBC forward. Both archaic ē and ei are represented by ει. The same is true for ō and ou which are both represented as ου. The exact same orthography is used in Japanese: えい おう.
If you postulate a diphthong for ει, then wouldn’t you do the same for ου?
@@ScorpioMartianus Thank you for your reply. Before I continue, I have to say that I am not a dialectologist, just a humble geologist with an interest in dialects, minority languages, and ancient languages. My statement is therefor based on my personal observations and comparison with my own dialects (which are not Greek by any stretch of the imagination) rather than any scrutinised scientific investigation. It is very possible that what I am saying is wrong, but for the following reasons I don't think, it can be completely discarded:
* Dialectical variation tends to differ from village to village. Unfortunately we don't have any documents that compare each village, in the same way as we have those for Belgium and the Netherlands, but if your video, which is awesome, shows me one thing, it is that Athenian Attic shows clear signs of being a city dialect, which have a tendency to be quite different from surrounding dialects. My guess would be that dialects from Piraeus and Sounion would likely be more conservative and more similar to eachother, than to progressive Athenian, despite being on the other side of the city
* It seems that the merger of [ei] and [e] (and similarly [ou] and [o]) is indeed very common, as well as the change of [e] and [o] to [ei] and [ou] and vice versa. And to untrained ears, they are often considered the same sound. To give the example in East Flemish of the city of Ghent and the town of Evergem, which are no more than 10 km apart. In the dialect of Evergem Middle Dutch [e:] and [o:] are pronounced [e] and [o], whereas in the city dialect of Ghent [e:] was diphthingised to [ei] and o was split into [ou] before labials and sometimes velars, and [o:] in other positions. I know this example is anachronistic and "anaglottistic" (just invented that word), but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong
* The Ionian alphabet. Whereas the Archaic Attics worked with the alphabet that they had, causing it to not be fully phonemic in E and O (having two long possibilities for each), the ionians had none of it and added two letters (or rather changed one and added another) to be more phonemic. That leads however to the question why they would use a digraph to describe a long vowel. On the one hand, they did not feel the need to have alternatives for long A, I and Y (I don't know if they marked long vowels somehow, like romans did), so why would they need it for E and O. On the other hand they had absolutely no problem inventing new letters, so why would they use digraphs to represent a simple long vowel. Of course it could always be possible that long E and O were inicially diphthongs in ionian, and later monophthongised, leaving the spelling behind as a remnant of this. That attic took over the digraphs for sounds that they would likely have perceived as the same sound, is a lot easier to explain
(*Very circumstantial, but perhaps worth mentioning. Attic seems to hate having multiple vowel sounds in a row, whereas Ionian appears to have no problem with it whatsoever. So if one would be monphthongising its diphthongs, Attic is the more likely candidate, whereas if one were to diphthongise, Ionian would be more likely)
Now this idea of mine, is not without its weaknesses (to put it mildly). For one I am generalising Attic and Ionian, my first point already makes clear why I shouldn't do this, but of course there is no Reeks Nederlandse Dialectatlassen for ancient Greek. It is possible [ei] occurs in some ionian dialects, possibly even some attic (but not Athenian), and [e] occurs in others. Second, I am disregarding evolution in time. Third, it is mostly based on assumptions and opinions, with little hard evidence presented. In my opinion (and this is one I cannot even sustain) in areas that would use [ei] and [ou], these diphthongs would be a lot weaker than the other diphthongs.
Anyway, that is what I think about it. Would be great to hear your two cents on the matter. That is if you reached the end of my post
One thing which I’ve noticed in European linguistics is that you don’t seem to consider alternative pronunciations much. There is also a possibility that at least in some varieties of Ancient Greek that “ei” (I don’t have the Greek keyboard set) was pronounced in free variation as “ei” and “e”. In my heritage language, Tagalog, there are many sounds that interchange, and which pronunciation is used is largely based on carefulness of speech at a given instance. Native speakers will sometimes pronounce the word “ay” as “ay” and other times as a long “ē” sound. Another example is “doon” (there is a glottal stop between the two o’s) being pronounced as “dun” sometimes. These are just alternative pronunciations, and the shorter pronunciation might be used more when speaking quickly, and the full one more when emphasis is desired. Something like this.
Interesting video, I'm glad you're dealing with my language, for me there is no ancient and new Greek language it's a single... evolving and a continuation of each other.... they are one inside the other, to such an extent that if you remove the "ancient", you will not be able to speak modern Greek.
Even today, not only us as Greeks, but also many in the world especially scientists and philologists refer to the "ancient" Greek language to describe something new.
But I am writing to you for another reason....you who deal with languages....it should be taken seriously into your consideration, as regards the pronunciation of words and letters, the environment in which a language was developed.
To put it more simply, one way you develop the language and its pronunciation, in a plain and another in a mountain and another in a coastal area, also differently you develop the language and its accent, in areas with very cold, with a little cold , little heat, or very hot...
For example, in warm areas of the planet, we have more vowels in words, but basically a wider opening of the mouth when we speak, (so a different sound), because this helps the body to cool down better... while in very cold areas we have more consonants , but basically a smaller opening of the mouth, so that the heat does not escape from the mouth.... which means that the sound of even the same word differs from region to region.
I think this should be a key element in your search.
Very good work, well done.
Greetings from Greece
The second conservative system is closer to the pronunciation of modern Greek.
quite close actually, to the point that i find it hard to believe that it is completely unrelated to the modern greek pronounciation in some ways, possibly indirectly, through such innovations existing in other dialects as well.
Λοιπόν αγαπητέ μας φίλε, εκτιμούμε πολύ την προσπάθεια να κατανοήσουμε την εκφωνητική των αρχαίων Ελλήνων. Ωστόσο όμως σαν Έλληνας δεν μπορώ να πιστέψω ότι αυτό που ακούω έχει κάποια σχέση με την πραγματικότητα. Η εκφώνηση των αρχαίων Ελληνικών διασώζεται ακαίρεη μέσα στην Ορθόδοξη Εκκλησία η οποία είναι πολύ συντηρητική και δεν εισάγει νεοτερισμούς στα εκκλησιαστικά κείμενα. Θεωρώ λοιπόν την εκφώνηση που προβάλεις ότι είναι πολύ μακριά απο την πραγματικότητα. Φιλικά, από την Ελλάδα...
Hahaha signomi alla skeftikes prin grapseis?
@@andrewmichaels5725 Αν έχεις διαφορετική άποψη να την ακούσω ευχαρίστως. Χωρίς ειρωνείες και αγένεια όμως. Αν δεν μπορείς άστο.
Can Modern Greek speakers understand this?
I have a feeling they might say things you can hear about here: th-cam.com/video/BybLbHPU7Qc/w-d-xo.html
But I’d you mean either understand it written or pronounced in any of the reconstructions, I imagine that would be unlikely without having studied either.
this specific text is not that hard, and as such yes, it is intelligible to us, but there are other ancient texts that are harder to understand.
@@ScorpioMartianus Wtf? Why the hell would you bring this as a response here? this specific text is not even that hard to understand through little to no studying of ancient Greek, but once again, your whole point here is to try to paint all Greeks as somehow uneducated in their own language and to try to diminish the continuity of our language and culture.
4:34 Except in Canada 🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦
😅😅😅😅
Quite: th-cam.com/video/BOqdrWlR4Gw/w-d-xo.html
The really long vowels remind me of Bosnian accents
That’s a fantastic observation! Bosnian has phonemic long vowels like Latin and Ancient Greek.
@@ScorpioMartianus Yeah, Serbo-Croatian has pitch accents, though in most places the long vowels are not much longer than the short ones
/ej/ prō ει est barbarismus māximus! Semper crēdēbam Linguam Antīquam Graecam habēre /i:/ aut valdē clausam /e:/ prō ει.
Laudō!
Very funny video mate🤭🍻🤙👍🤝🫂💙
Great video. I wish my Greek teacher at school had cared more about the pronunciation. Homer might have made more sense. He actually told us off for caring about the accent. 😂
Your long vowels are very exaggerated. I doubt they would have been quite so looong. Listen to a bit of Hungarian which also has the distinction but is toned down in unstressed syllables. I disagree with your comment that the loss of length distinction prevents a pitch accent. Yes for the contour pitches in Greek but several dialects of BCS have pitch distinctions on short vowels as do many African languages. It is entirely possible that Greek could have continued with a single raised pitch where the accent had been before finally becoming a stressed language. To my ears the stress in modern Greek still has a higher pitch level than most European languages.
I’m glad you liked it. While my recitation of the Attic is primarily pedagogical as it’s meant to emphasize the differences, they’re not especially exaggerated when compared to Japanese or Finnish. BCS does indeed have phonemic pitch, but only because it also has *phonemic length* - this is also true of the African languages you mentioned: they have to be built moraically, a characteristic that Modern Greek lacks.
I do however very much agree that MG occasionally has pitch contours quite close to what they ought to be in AG; while this is not phonemic, I don’t think it’s a coincidence. I don’t know if this has been analyzed statistically.
Only for Greeks... Ωράϊος Κάϊρος !!! Στον πόϋτσο μόϋ !!!
👍
Of course he could not resist to make a joke about some Greeks that make a fuss about the ancient reconstructed pronunciation when in reality he tries to diminish the history of the modern pronunciation and diminish its continuity and that of the Greek people. Such people are honestly so full of themselves when trying to show to supposedly "uneducated Greeks" how they know so much more than them when in reality all they do is try to diminish the direct continuation of the people whose language they so much admire. Not to mention how you have times and again shown to diminish any way that the ancient pronunciation is connected to the modern one through different dialects and changes that happened earlier in some places than others. It is obvious that you try to diminish any actual connection through a bias in trying to diminish the history and continuity of the Greek people.
in some parts of central greece, such extreme iotakism is still preserved! ee becomin i
Really? I’d love to see examples. Feel free to email them.
Utinam homeri pronuntiationem aliquando edas
Ōlim
Apologia Socratus = of Socrates...