Bromley you are the man! Thank you so much for the review! Definitely was careful with my selection of words there as I just started my channel 🤣 The episode 2 of “Bruce vs Jeff” on this topic will be published today at 2:30pm EST, which will put the last nail in the coffin in his argument 💪
I like Shethar's take on this: a lot of the insane sumo world records are being set on extremely bendy deadlift bars, which greatly exaggerate the advantage of sumo pullers, especially because sumo is hardest off the floor and easiest at lockout. If stiff bars were being used across the board, sumo and conventional would probably be a lot closer.
@@TheMulalleyit's night and day. Since the hardest part is off the floor, when you pull initially on a deadlift bar, maybe half the weight gets pulled up and your in a much better start position. After that, pulling becomes so much easier because of how much more upright you can get and how much higher you hips can get while the weight hasn't even left the floor. While on a stiff bar, your start position is more disadvantageous and you need to break the floor with all the weight at the same time, which is harder for sumo since that's already the sticking point.
13:30 There's also the fact that the erectors don't actually perform any work in moving the load. They just stabilize the trunk and keep it rigid so force can be _transferred_ through them. The quads, however, actually generate force that performs work. Its like comparing a motor and a transmission. Or maybe, idk anything about cars those words just sounded right.
Quads: basically the largest muscle group in the body. Erectors: smallest muscle group relied upon in deadlifting. Nippard: 1 to 1 trade-off, no debate.
@@vignesh1065Yeah but we're only talking about them in comparison to the quads, because that's what the trade off is between. Not to every other muscle group in the body.
@@vignesh1065 They aren't that big at all actually. Or strong for that matter. When people round their back in a conventional deadlift they think that they are using lower back to drag up the weight. But that is not what is actually happening. They are actually just putting their hips, glutes in a stronger position to pull from, and the erectors are forced to work isometrically harder.
As an older intermediate lifter (at best) who has always deadlifted conventional, the very first time I lifted sumo I found it significantly easier (5'11" height). Night and day, really. I also didn't feel like I was working anything but my legs. Seems to me the sole purpose of sumo is to lift as much as possible in competition. Since that's not my goals, I skip it.
Most of the big sumo guys, including woolam, recommend you do almost all your training conventional anyway, and if you don’t power lift they say there’s almost no reason to do sumo to begin with. We already have squats to build up the quads.
I liked adding in semi-sumo as I finally could feel my glutes doing something during the deadlift rather than my lower back just getting all pumped up.
Another point of contention being the impracticality of the sumo with the current bar length for taller lifters. With the present standard powerlifting bar length, taller lifters like Hafthor might find it very difficult to take a proper sumo stance without having to worry about dropping plateson your toes.
@@giganticitalianbodybuildin1584 The 130 cm width on the bar alowes smaller people to get mega cut on the rom of the lift cause they are closer to the ground anyways and they can spread legs alot more than tall lifters but anyone can spread legs more than 130 cm and smash toes
I love sumo..it really is so much easier on my back..but that is the thing. It is different... I cant believe conventional and sumo are allowed in the same lifting contest
Yeah, that's a common response, that it's an easy workaround to low back issues. Problem is that the lack of stress on the low back prevents the type of growth that can actually remedy the low back issues in the future, so it becomes a crutch for a lot of people. Weight climbs, hips get stronger but the midsection stays frail.
@@AlexanderBromley dependent on load ofc, what about squat and bench variations on grip and stance width ? Those just like a sumo have the same bar path but have higher activation of different muscles
@@AlexanderBromley Agreed, and having a weak core is definitely not a good thing not just for strength sports but for everyday life. I really think a lot of people just don't wanna do that prerequisite work to get their core and back strong enough to conventional well.
Could it be that actually your lower back and your quads are way stronger than your abdominals and hamstrings? That's my problem. I could actually use more conventional deadlifts. Proper conventional deadlifts. Conventional deadlifts is not only lower back lift. It's also hamstring lift. My hamstrings and lower abdominals are embarrassingly weak. This has giving me lordosis. I don't have to lift to be in pain. Just using my lower back at work is miserable. Even if just standing for hours. I've been advised by physical therapist to avoid stretching hamstrings. This has also given me knee problems. My outer quads are pulling on my knee caps. Years ago I had my knees lock during squats because of this but my squats were great.
The bench arch/sumo comparison is simultaneously disingenuous and spot on. Have you ever heard of someone calling sumo cheating but not willing to criticize excessive arch? Of course neither is literally cheating unless and until there is a rule change, which I don't see forthcoming.
@@AlexanderBromley It's not a thing to my knowledge. By spot on I mean Nippard brings up arch like it's a point in his favor, when it's really just another obvious examples of gaming the system, if anything highlighting that the rule set is due for some tweaks.
Yeah, his argument had to due with a sort of logical reasoning about why sumo is easier for shorter lifters. Basically this has to due with the strength curve and sticking points. Sumo is hardest at the bottom. Conventional is hardest a bit of the way up the shin. Doing a block pull sumo is waaay easier than from the floor. Doing a block pull conventional below the knee, may actually be harder because there is no momentum through the sticking point. If you are short, you are basically doing a block pull because the relative height of the bar is higher (up a larger % of your body height). So that is probably why you see more of an extreme bias in the lower weight classes (like close to 100%) and less in the very big boi weight classes (close to 0%). I think this was a decent summary, yeah?
I agree on that sumo is a different lift, and is a worse developmental tool. However: 1- "Not everyone started lifting weights to be a powerlifter" That's true. However the sample is IPF lifters trying to achieve the highest total they can? Lifting the most weight is literally their sport lol 2- Saying that bench arch is a spectrum but sumo isn't is incredibly silly. You see some lifters with super wide stances and some with closer sumo stances. 3- Disingenuous not to show the graph that shows that all the shorter lifters use sumo but almost all of the taller lifters use convential which reinforced his point. (These people are trying to maximise their total so if sumo would give them any more weight on that total you can assume they would do it.) 4- Jeff's point with the ROM difference was used an example to show that height can effect the range of motion differences in individuals. The study that is your smoking gun is comparing convential lifters against sumo in different people with similar AVERAGE heights? 5- This study is also not mentioning the weight lifted with each variation which is what they are measuring in powerlifting. Without this variable measured the study proves nothing. It would have to show that everyone is lifting more weight with sumo. I also can't tell if the "you used a tape measure not a 3d motion capture" thing was serious but if it was.... wow.
Me a strongman. Strongman best strength sport. Powerlifting Sucks. Powerlifters suck. Sumo is cheating, arching is cheating, strongman better squatter.
Agree on all fronts. Also if Simon is cheating then what's PEDs 🤔🧐. Let the sport dictate what is allowed and what's not. Sombo is different from judo because of the rules. Strong man is different from power lifting because of the rules. If it's allowed then it's allowed.
Although on the video they didn't use the tape correctly, it should have been vertical but appeared slightly tilted, adding extra few inches to the measure.
1.) Point A.) there is a cost to switching; a seasoned conventional puller can absolutely not pivot to sumo on a dime without seriously overhauling their training and re-developing themselves around it. The style you start with is likely to remain your preferred method of pulling. Point B.) MOST are influenced to start with conventional. People are influenced into lifting through all kinds of sources and none of them prioritize sumo. I don't know what you think about the training of IPF lifters, but it isn't different than every other group of strength athletes. These are people who found training on their own and got good over a period of time based on work and talent, not perfectly calculated decision making. This isn't Oly lifting where they get you at 9 and teach you what they think will be optimal for Worlds in 10 years. Strongman parallels this with the jerk. Most use a push press with only a few excelling at the jerk. The reason isn't that you can potentially push press more than you can jerk; the reason is the cost of working against a lifetime of training to overcome a new technical barrier may not be worth it, or if it is it won't be until years down the line. Just like we know the jerk technique allows for 600+ overhead presses where other styles do not, we know that sumo allows for 1000lb+ pulls at sub-300lbs body weight where other styles do not. 2.) No. Your hands are outside your legs at the start or they aren't. Once they go in, torque is immediately increased on the low back and range increased. That is a working binary: in or out. There is no identifiable threshold of being arched vs not, just varying degrees of it. 3.) The conclusion that it 'works better' for the small guys but not the big guys because it's more heavily represented is a complete assumption and a wrong one. It's more likely that social factors dictate what small lifters adopt vs big ones based on early perceptions of the need to 'catch up'. Benedikt was 6', some of the best sumo guys are around that height. Add 50lbs of mass to Browner's frame... you think his deadlift drops?? 4.) Jeff's point was that the difference in ROM wasn't a big deal and he tried to prove it by using 2 people with 135lbs and a tape measure. He ignored a more thorough study that showed a much bigger gap than what he measured for himself. You've used the words 'disengenuous' and silly. Well.... There are surely lifters who might only get marginal benefit from sumo; the point is not that it's a huge gap with everyone. Small changes about the mean make for monster changes at the tail end of the bell curve. 5.) That's really dumb. Evaluating biomechanics tells you which is mechanically 'stronger', where potential advantage is, but strength doesn't get realized without specific training and adaptation to that movement pattern. There are people who can stiff-leg more than they can conventional, strict press more than they can jerk, bench more with a flat back and flared elbows than otherwise. When we talk about a lift having an advantage it's a discussion about potential, not what people can actually do right now. How you actually trained determines your current abilities.
I don't understand why the range of motion per joint part in jeff's video was not mentioned. that has a difference while the range of motion of the bar itself obviously means nothing if the range of motion that the joints experience is the same. You are being unfair a little because that's the strongest evidence to establish equivalence between these exercises in the study (and the reason that the total bar range of motion part of the same study was excluded). You can think sumo is easier like i do but you must be honest with all the arguments presented.(especially the most important one)
Sumo cheaters argue “a deadlift is a deadlift.” If that were the case, Jefferson deadlift should be comp legal. Sure, it’s much easier and more mechanically advantageous over than the other lifts, but it’s a deadlift, right?? They might as well call it a two hands anyhow lift.
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 straight bar and legal plates still have limitations you out the box talkin abt trap bar and wagon wheels for competition which is completely irrelevant to the argument
@@amishtechwizard5540 well no bc there are plenty of conventional pullers who actually can’t 🤷🏽♂️ but again why put yourself in an disadvantage if your leverages go the other way
I’m newer to lifting and learned sumo first so I tend to revert to that because I feel more comfortable in that stance. But now I’m understanding that conventional will likely be better developmentally so I need to get out of that comfort zone. Also, movie of choice: Goon
If you have serious powerlifting aspirations and that's where you feel at home, nothing wrong with sticking to it. I'm critical of the rules that allow it but still think people should play to their strengths within the rules. Even if you stick with sumo as your main lift, you should absolutely get out of your comfort zone. Pulling conventional, even as an accessory, will strengthen your hammies, midsection and upper back much faster than sumo will by itself.
@@AlexanderBromley I have my first rookie competition in September at age 49…late to the game, just happy to be here. Lol I’ve been consuming your content like mad, learning a ton because I don’t have a coach or train at a gym. Currently running a version of Greyskull after watching your videos on programming. Thanks for the excellent content!
@@amypatrick8429 I had my first competition last yr. at age 63. your never too old to do new things. Alex's channel is outstanding. Good luck on your first competition.
@@AlexanderBromley I swapped conventional for my usual sumos today…holy crap, they actually felt amazing. I had it in my head that I could move more weight with sumo but I actually don’t know if that’s the case after all.
In minute 11:44 what Jeff is saying bullshit. It’s not about MuScLe AcTiVaTiOn or whatever. It’s just physics. Work=(weight)*(distance). On the equations below I’m using Jeff’s numbers. Let’s assume he is deadlifting 500lb. Wsumo= (500 lb)*(16 in) = 8,000 lb-in Wconv= (500 lb)*(19 in) = 9,500 lb-in His body is literally doing less work with sumo. Conventional feels harder because it’s physically more work, more effort. Jeff is basically saying that the ~15% difference in Perceived Exertion is due to the work being distributed to other muscles and that’s why it feels easier. WRONG! The 15% literally disappeared. It’s not part of the movement. It’s less Exertion, not less Perceived Exertion.
Sumo is a different test of strength than conventional but I still think it's a great test of strength. Pete Rubish had an interesting take in that if you have a massive sumo deadlift it's pretty unlikely that you have a weak conventional. Hey Bromley, Strongman has all these different deadlift events, hummertire, car deadlift, conventional, why not a sumo deadlift event? I don't get the hate, we should just keep sumo in a category separate from conventional but it's still worthy of respect.
from a physics standpoint, conventional is scientifically harder and more impressive because work = force x distance, and conventional requires moving the bar over a greater distance, aka exerting a force over a greater distance.
But with this logic can't you say regular pull ups are harder than wide grip pull ups due to longer range of motion, which is obviously not true? I do think conventional is harder than sumo though
I think younger lifters should try their best in both. I'm 56 and stuck with conventional, have held to a few Masters state records in the DL. I tried training with Sumo but it's ugly so far. It may take about a year before I can get even close to what I pull in conventional.
Doing the lifts YOU enjoy is good, I am also in the same boat of agreeing with alexander but still doing sumo myself because it's fun and works my legs and glutes nicely
Not trying to argue, but is sumo really using more quad? I get more kneeflexion when i conventionally deadlift while I can get my hips much closer to the bar when sumo deadlifting and use my adductors more in addition to having a shorter lever between my hips and the center of gravity. When I conventionally deadlift the lift is really easy up to my knees, when I can use my quads to initiate the lift. And I am not trying to squat the bar up. Anyway, i'm about as strong with sumo as conventional, but conventional is so much easier to execute technically.
Why would it be cheating if everyone is allowed to do it? If it is universally easier and athletes choose to pull conventional isn’t that on them? What I understand least is the objection to sumo in strongman: if we want to watch athletes perform a very specific movement with precise restrictions and limitations, that sounds a bit like powerlifting to me. I enjoy watching strongman way more because I want to see strong guys and girls move heavy shit from point A to point B and I don’t really care how they do it. Allowing suits and figure 8s but not allowing sumo because it makes it easier, that just doesn’t seem consistent - surely we want either the purest test of strength (in which case belts and straps only) or we want to see the biggest numbers (in which case let the athlete choose what technique works best for them)
In strongman, point B is defined. It's getting the stone on the 60" platform or the yoke to the finish line 40' away. Even in the overhead, you can do whatever the hell you want to get it there... but it ain't 'finished' until the feet are together. On a deadlift, getting your hips through with your toes 5' apart isn't the same finish. And the amount of people that just want to see 'more weight lifted, period' is so small they aren't even worth talking about. That would be 20" deadlifts, hand-thigh lifts and isometric holds, etc. They are wildly unpopular. Most strongman fans have a definition of strength that involves being useful and they can discern when the feat being performed works against that standard.
It's not cheating in the current rules, but it seems like essentially a variation of the exercise, which seems off to me. I want to see everyone doing the same thing for equal comparison. I'm not interested in one person hex bar deadlifting and another doing conventional, or one guy doing a max weighted pull up while the other does a chin up. I just want everyone doing the same thing on the same playing field.
Yeah I don't understand the arbitrary nature of allowing Sumo but not Jefferson or hack deadlift. They are different movements which are correlated but not equivalent. Sumo has the rare distinction of also being a way for smaller lifters to put up big totals based on leverage and ROM. Really think they should be split out into different categories, just like raw with wraps vs without. I think I've been become a bit disillusioned with powerlifting in general. See way too many 2" ROM bench presses and 6" Sumo pulls these days. Over specialization is rampant and detracts from the sport aspect of it in my opinion. I find strongman to be a lot more entertaining.
What do you think about using a moderate stance sumo as variation? Maybe like a secondary/accessory type of exercise. Maybe even off of deficit to counteract the shorter ROM. Do you think there's any benefit to that?
What about narrow stance sumo as a developmental tool? I like to do my deadlifts with a narrow stance (about as narrow as conventional), but big gut, big legs and short arms makes it feel much more natural to have my arms between the legs. I think I'm a bit stronger in that position, but not by a whole lot.
It's just about basic logic.If sumo is cheating,then everyone's sumo deadlift would be higher than their conventional deadlift. Obviously that's not true.
That's bad logic. It assumes that you can potentiate one or the other without years of specialized training, which isn't true. Replace sumo and conventional with jerk and push press: if you've never done a jerk you will suck at it but there's no doubt that the potential for a jerk is much much higher. And that's exactly what we see on the all-time deadlift list.
Imo Sumo is just a completely different exercise. Its like comparing a deadlift and a rack pull because they use similar muscle groups. Sumo isn't as comparable to conventional as people like to think.
In any sport, people press the rules as far as legally possible to win. Wide receivers use the stickiest gloves legally allowed, high jumpers use the Fosbury flop, and some powerlifters use sumo. It isn’t cheating if it’s not against the rules 🤷♂️
Why don't people call the clean & jerk a cheater snatch? Why don't we consider sumo and conventional different lifts? Why am I even taking the time to write this? I say you live your life over there and I will live mine over here.
Bromely I'm about start my first week of the peak phase on Bullmastiff and mainly care about my bench and squat. Could I replace ohp and deadlift for them?
Work (J) = Force (Mass X Acc.) X Displacement (meters)....Yes acceleration is a factor and yes the transfer of potential energy to kinetic energy along with friction, vector quantities, etc play a role....if done in a vacuum doing a sumo lift literally means doing less work.
I specifically use sumo for hamstring development.. to improve my squat and conventional pull. Note… I have a home gym I’m which a barbell is the only device I have to load and use weight.
What would you guys suggest for someone with short arms (I’m 5’10 with a 5’8 wingspan) and long legs? I’ve tried frog sumo but I don’t even think it helps more than conventional. At least benching is fun lol…
If sumo is cheating because there's less range of motion and you can use more weight then conventional is also cheating since we could use deficit deadlift.
I had heavy lifting jobs in my youth. Moved pool tables, utility construction, and EMS. I lifted for a living for over a decade. My foot stance was probably closer to Shaw/Hall in that it’s slightly wider than shoulder. But never did I lift wide legged.
Bromley reacts to Bruce reacting to Jeff Nippard. Is this the highest level of content or has Bromley run out of ideas? I guess I'll just have to watch the video and find out
I have tried both stance, and suprisingly conventional was better for me. I am a 225 Ibs guy at the height of 6’3, have a wide and strong hip strucure, but hip mobility is not great. Will not pull sumo. But i have no problem with people pulling sumo. At least they are deadlifting, and training their legs and some low back. Lot of people not even deadlifting, because: „they dont want to get their low back injured” or „fuck the compound movements”. That is nonsense. The best exercise ever after free weight back squats.
Thanks to both of you for putting into words what is observable by just looking at someone pull sumo or trying it yourself. These sumo people just say leverages and BS and they most of the time don't even know what that means.
These sumo vs conventional debates shall continue for ever. Important question is that is sumo really cheating? What cheating actually means? It means deceiving other people for the sake of personal benefits. But sumo is performed in the presence of authorized judges and under the official rules. How come is this a cheating then? It is not. Secondly, if sumo allows to pull more weight, then doesn't it mean it is more efficient way of pulling? Powerlifters are always trying to move heavier weights for shortest possible legally allowed distance. Then why they loathe it in case of deadlift? Third, if sumo allows more weight, then why not conventional pullers pull twice more weight in sumo? By the way, I am equally good at both as I practice both. So please....
As someone who has pulled both ways sumo is just a quad exercise. If you want to work your lower back nothing does it better than conventional deadlift. Powerlifting need to ban sumo and stop treating it the same as conventional. I once saw a guy lift 700 pounds sumo but when they made him lift conventional he barley lifted 418. No joke. If that's not proof that sumo is at the very least a terrible developable exercise I don't know what is
Hell yea love the love. Too many people hate on others and feel like if someone else is growing then they are shrinking. Im glad u know that promo for another isnt detriment to you.
I think people should still do at least some work on the sumo deadlift because of just how much it transfers to daily life. Every time I have gotten to carry a heavy big box around somewhere I've had to do a sumo deadlift of sorts to be able to carry it because, in a conventional one, the box-thing would bump on my legs. I would argue that conventional deads are for when you carry something big with a partner and sumo deads are for carrying something big on your own. That's why I've always seen this debate as pointless. It's like comparing pull-ups to chinups; one is just a version that tends to be easier, so really, you should just compare each to eachother (conventional Vs conventional and sumos to sumos).
I competed using both conventional and sumo. I can lift more in a sumo. but I believe conventional is best for overall strength. Sumo in my opinion is just good for powerlifting competition.
Hands in vs hands outside the legs. Thats a binary standard. You can vary stance width but there is a quantized jump once the hands go inside that creates an immediate benefit
Alexander Bromley The people who are deadlifting stupid numbers at low body weights are just built for it. They are performing a normal persons above the knee rack pull. Seriously all those guys start upright and lock out at their knees. My point is that normally built people don’t have a huge difference between their deadlift style
Not a fan of sumo or leg press(different workout for another discussion). I hear they work better on particular muscles or that they can be used an accessory. Idk its a different exercise to change it up a bit. I do find it funny how lots of people put vids of their max sumo but their conventional you may see one or none at all lol. Do it for the gram.
I compete conventional but train both. Summo is way harder for me off the floor. If you think summo is way easier, then go to a competition and break some records. Most just talk and don't actually lift. By the way, the bull mastiff program by Bromley is super awesome and I love it
I agree with Bruce majority of the population will pull more sumo I personally pull more conventional I tried sumo quite a few years thinking I could add more to my max and got pretty good at it but just could never pull as much as I do conventional so I switched back and it’s so much easier
I realize posting this a year later that it likely will not be seen, but there are a few points I would like to provide an opinion on. I understand that very wide stance sumo is easier due to a decrease in ROM, but you went at some of this the wrong way. a) Jeff cited a study on powerlifters that competed in a pretty big meet, you guys ignored that and acted as if it was just general population and stated that its just because noncompetors used conventional more... it was a competition study. b) he referenced an anecdote instead of a study for something, you got mad and said use study, and then he used the study later and you said "ya but look at anecdote." c) sumo is a spectrum, a lot of people can not realistically get into so wide of a stance that they can move the bar under 1 foot and get a lock out, for some people their hip mobility isn't very good and they can't get out there, and, even for myself, I am not overly good at the sumo position, I feel it bugs my hips a lot more than a conventional one. the hardest part of sumo is off the floor while the hardest part of conventional is normally at the knees, and if you can't get into an overly advantaged position you aren't really getting that position in which your range of motion is decreased so much that it removes the most difficult part of the lift. Do I believe that sumo deadlifting is better if your leverages are good for it or you are willing to put in enough work to perfect it and take enough time out of your day for solid mobility, likely. Do I also believe that for certain people, normally ones who are heavier and have issues with getting into good positions for sumo, its realistically not a major advantage, and likely not one at all, also yes. I am an example of the latter situation, where I am not overly heavy (about 180lbs at 20% body fat, the accurate body fat not that bullshit bf% tests you see online those put me at about 12%) but I am unfortunately blessed with the shoulder and hip mobility genetics of a rock. Coming off of an elbow injury due to baseball I made it a goal to chase a 450lb deadlift, and during that I found that even though I had been working on my hips, it was infinitely easier for me to pull conventional and I could recover better from it. On top of this, I feel the conventional deadlift is better for athletes, and especially in my sport as it is more posterior chain dominant, and it is known that the glutes are the main power developers in athletes, and that specifically in baseball the upper back plays a major role in arm and shoulder health. I have however found that when I am not feeling good on lifting and am experiencing barriers that prevent me from training as much, such as rehabbing from my elbow surgery or being in season, sumo deadlift was a much better lift for me as sometimes I did not have it in me to be in the gym as often. I would run full body days and try hard to keep it to 3-4 exercises so I could tell myself I'd done enough to at least maintain while my priorities were somewhere else, and I felt that sumo deadlifting was a much better exercise for me as a lower body developer since a) I did not have great leverages so my stance wasn't really in a position that gave me any real advantage, b) it hit my quads more, and sometimes back squatting and front squatting could result in elbow issues due to my UCL being pulled laterally to hold the bar in place. this made it a good tool for me then, and when I got back into conventional deadlifting vs sumo deadlifting, I just found conventional was still better for my strength numbers due to my overall posterior chain dominance in my phyisque. I also just felt that your entire video just had a destain for science based lifters. Jeff is a very well accomplished lifter, and has used science very well. he's competed on the world stage as a bodybuilder and powerlifter using these methods, and I would trust him based off of that alone. though recently I don't agree with his pure bodybuilding stuff because thats not how I try to train, I generally would support Jeff as one of the few people who brand themselves as science based and nearly always respects research, as well as pointing out his bias when it is there. I agree that in exercise science research is always catching up with experience, but I believe that Jeff made some very good points in this video, and that you had a few hypocritical approaches such as bashing him for using a powerlifting competition study instead of just using people in the gym, then getting mad at him using anecdote, and then telling him him using a study that you just told him you wanted him to use was dumb because the anecdote you saw was more pronounced. Do I believe that most people are better at sumo, yes, but did you approach this video with an at all open mindset, god no.
I have a feeling Alexander Bromley is a huge fan of Jeff Nippard. I like his info and programs, its given me a lot of strength gains... but the criticism is fair either way.
Great video. I should have watched this when it first came out. Sika just put out a shorter, simpler video on this topic, and I'm gladder a commenter there reminded me about this video.
Great video! Review Terminator 3! I think it’s kind of underrated at this point, considering it wasn’t viewed as a worthy send-off to the series, but all of the subsequent attempts at sequels to finish the series have been vastly inferior.
Super Heavyweights use conventional because they care about absolute strength. Little guys care about relative strength. They're not doing sumo because it's *harder* after all.
@@pathlastname9278 It makes perfect sense. SHs care about displaying absolute strength, they don't think sumo is as legitimate as conventional, therefore...
I still disagree with the research study. The only truly accurate way to see the difference between sumo and conventional is to have the same lifter perform both. At a minimum, arm length and the way they set their traps/shoulders would play a significant role in the final result.
The term in and of itself proves that sumo is cheating and came after. You’re literally leg pressing the majority of the weight vs recruiting more core muscles and building more (overall) strength
Great video. Sumo gives the lifter a higher ceiling. Doesn't guarantee that potential is fulfilled but it is more potential nonetheless. Example: what can be hit further in their respective sports: a tennis ball, a baseball, or a golf ball? A pro golfer can hit a golf ball about twice as far as what a pro baseball player can hit a baseball. And the baseball player can roughly double up what a pro tennis player can hit. Does that mean Serena Williams can hit a baseball further than she can hit a tennis ball? Obviously not, since she has high proficiency with the tennis ball and might only hit the baseball a few feet. But, if she were to start over from scratch and focus on baseball for the past 30 years, she'd obviously hit a baseball much further than she could ever hit a tennis ball.
I mean what is cheating? A deadlift is just that, lift from dead stop off the floor. The only way it can be cheating is if we standardize conventional, making sumo a secondary movement.
sumo is a good secondary movement to the conventional is what i think. Conv builds up your sumo. Sumo doesnt translate that well to the conventional. For the powerlifter just go sumo in comp
That study didn’t measure both for each lifter….they did 12 and 12 which doesn’t accommodate for individual limb lengths or stance width variations across all those lifters thus also being an invalid study
If they were to measure both sumo and conventional for each lifter, they'd have to find a handful of lifters who are equally proficient in both styles, which is almost impossible to find as you either pull sumo as your main lift or conventional. In this study they matched the subject characteristics (age, experience, height, weight, RPE when performing the lift during the test etc.) in both groups as much as they could to minimize bias. Every study has some limitations and these limitations don't make them invalid. In fact, this article was published in "Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise", a peer-reviewed journal that has always kept its impact factor over 4, which is an excellent score considering the average journal impact factor is less than 1.
@@kdekded this still disregards limb length to height ratios which can skew the rom reduction percentage right bc you can have a tall sumo puller with shirt arms and a tall conventional puller with long arms and the rom could be the sane or be less for a conventional puller ? Bc it doesn’t matter the experience rpe or strength standard that’s irrelevant to the actual study of reduced rom being considered cheating ? Bc then for example andrzej stanaszek a midget pulls conventional and has way less rom should his deadlifts count ?
@@kdekded or Stuart Jamison’s world record deadlift it’s conventional but his proportions allow him an extremely low rom for conventional so would his count ?
@@autavianfields7284 1) If they could find 24 lifters who matched limb/height ratio and everything else then yeah it would be a better study but then the recruitment would take months even years. Again, no study is perfect, but that study is good enough. You don't have to accept it or agree with it, but the experts in the field accepted and acknowledged it. 2) I don't know what you are trying to say. 3) He would still have a larger ROM when pulling conventional vs sumo.
@@kdekded does Eddie hall and halfthors count bc it’s conventional? even tho they use straps and suits suits and can hitch these weights if needed for All time world record deadlifts ?
I never could pin point why I thought sumo was “cheating” just watching it something felt weird. Me and one other dude in the gym pull conventional everyone else pulls sumo
I've been enjoying your videos and slowly been watching the back catalogue as learn more and get more experience lifting. However, I do want to take you up on your offer. Review the 2015 Film "The Lobster", I would be keen to hear your take on it :D.
@@reggie7716 Eh, he pretty much got called out on not actually reading that 1 study which countered one of his main points so yea, doubt we'll see a response.
I'm cool with that if we also are all are willing to apply that to a flat back bench press vs an arched back bench press and a high bar squat vs a low bar squat. That's the only way applying thay logic imakes any practical sense in a competition setting.
Thank you for making this video. We all know sumo is cheating, this simply is evidence I will be linking to all the scrawny tik tok kids that try to “clap back” on Instagram.
Jeff using "well not everyone does it" as proof that it's not cheating is ignoring that A) not everyone wants to be #1, tons of powerlifters only compete 'against themselves' and B) if you think it's cheating, you probably won't do it
The trend is that until you get to the heavier weight classes, most DL records are sumo. The bigger dudes tend to have less hip mobility, which is probably why they all pull conventional, otherwise they'd probably pull sumo as well.
Thanks for introducing us to Bruce. Sumo is cheating, no one compares decline bench press numbers to regular flat bench. Jeff not sharing the numbers from the study he himself looked at is either gross incompetence or deliberately misleading.
He did share in his full video they cut that out actually 😂 and again if sumo was cheating more people would take advantage of it unfortunately that’s not the case an even if so it’s based on body mechanics
@@autavianfields7284 I compete as a powerlifter, sumo should not be recorded with convintional no more than decline bench numbers be recorded with regular bench press. If it is going to remain in powerlifting (which it certainly will) it should at least be given its own category.
Review the Batman. I personally loved the detective noir style Batman. I do wish someone got R Pats pulling conventional.... or even sumo for that matter.
Bromley you are the man! Thank you so much for the review! Definitely was careful with my selection of words there as I just started my channel 🤣 The episode 2 of “Bruce vs Jeff” on this topic will be published today at 2:30pm EST, which will put the last nail in the coffin in his argument 💪
bro you did a fantastic job!
@@eli-eli1 Appreciate it bro!
It's on now!
Been a fan of bromley but I’m glad I discovered you through this video. A lot of people take things at face value without digging deeper.
Have you played in Gran Torino movie?
I like Shethar's take on this: a lot of the insane sumo world records are being set on extremely bendy deadlift bars, which greatly exaggerate the advantage of sumo pullers, especially because sumo is hardest off the floor and easiest at lockout. If stiff bars were being used across the board, sumo and conventional would probably be a lot closer.
Yes. This 100. I think they are just afraid of pissing people off.
Sounds about right. I wonder what the difference is in a sumo lift on stiff versus deadlift bar. It's about a 50lb difference for my conventional.
@@TheMulalleyit's night and day. Since the hardest part is off the floor, when you pull initially on a deadlift bar, maybe half the weight gets pulled up and your in a much better start position. After that, pulling becomes so much easier because of how much more upright you can get and how much higher you hips can get while the weight hasn't even left the floor. While on a stiff bar, your start position is more disadvantageous and you need to break the floor with all the weight at the same time, which is harder for sumo since that's already the sticking point.
13:30 There's also the fact that the erectors don't actually perform any work in moving the load. They just stabilize the trunk and keep it rigid so force can be _transferred_ through them. The quads, however, actually generate force that performs work. Its like comparing a motor and a transmission.
Or maybe, idk anything about cars those words just sounded right.
You're good bro
Top tier analogy
Quads: basically the largest muscle group in the body.
Erectors: smallest muscle group relied upon in deadlifting.
Nippard: 1 to 1 trade-off, no debate.
While the erectors are smaller than the quads, they are still a big muscle group.
@@vignesh1065Yeah but we're only talking about them in comparison to the quads, because that's what the trade off is between. Not to every other muscle group in the body.
@@vignesh1065 They aren't that big at all actually. Or strong for that matter. When people round their back in a conventional deadlift they think that they are using lower back to drag up the weight. But that is not what is actually happening. They are actually just putting their hips, glutes in a stronger position to pull from, and the erectors are forced to work isometrically harder.
As an older intermediate lifter (at best) who has always deadlifted conventional, the very first time I lifted sumo I found it significantly easier (5'11" height). Night and day, really. I also didn't feel like I was working anything but my legs. Seems to me the sole purpose of sumo is to lift as much as possible in competition. Since that's not my goals, I skip it.
Well said.
Most of the big sumo guys, including woolam, recommend you do almost all your training conventional anyway, and if you don’t power lift they say there’s almost no reason to do sumo to begin with. We already have squats to build up the quads.
That's pathetic but not surprised.
I liked adding in semi-sumo as I finally could feel my glutes doing something during the deadlift rather than my lower back just getting all pumped up.
Another point of contention being the impracticality of the sumo with the current bar length for taller lifters. With the present standard powerlifting bar length, taller lifters like Hafthor might find it very difficult to take a proper sumo stance without having to worry about dropping plateson your toes.
Exactly I mean I'm only 6'1 and my wide stance squat is wider than my sumo because of the plates 🤣
@@owlperformance2147 th-cam.com/video/AB_bqIsYD2Y/w-d-xo.html
A short guy like Candito got his fingers smashed by the plates on sumo.
@@giganticitalianbodybuildin1584 The 130 cm width on the bar alowes smaller people to get mega cut on the rom of the lift cause they are closer to the ground anyways and they can spread legs alot more than tall lifters but anyone can spread legs more than 130 cm and smash toes
@@icecold3426 I just remember him smashing his toes despite being so short.
I love sumo..it really is so much easier on my back..but that is the thing. It is different... I cant believe conventional and sumo are allowed in the same lifting contest
Yeah, that's a common response, that it's an easy workaround to low back issues. Problem is that the lack of stress on the low back prevents the type of growth that can actually remedy the low back issues in the future, so it becomes a crutch for a lot of people. Weight climbs, hips get stronger but the midsection stays frail.
@@AlexanderBromley yet a squat will still strengthen the erectors just aswell
@@AlexanderBromley dependent on load ofc, what about squat and bench variations on grip and stance width ? Those just like a sumo have the same bar path but have higher activation of different muscles
@@AlexanderBromley Agreed, and having a weak core is definitely not a good thing not just for strength sports but for everyday life. I really think a lot of people just don't wanna do that prerequisite work to get their core and back strong enough to conventional well.
Could it be that actually your lower back and your quads are way stronger than your abdominals and hamstrings?
That's my problem. I could actually use more conventional deadlifts. Proper conventional deadlifts. Conventional deadlifts is not only lower back lift. It's also hamstring lift.
My hamstrings and lower abdominals are embarrassingly weak. This has giving me lordosis. I don't have to lift to be in pain. Just using my lower back at work is miserable. Even if just standing for hours.
I've been advised by physical therapist to avoid stretching hamstrings.
This has also given me knee problems. My outer quads are pulling on my knee caps. Years ago I had my knees lock during squats because of this but my squats were great.
The bench arch/sumo comparison is simultaneously disingenuous and spot on. Have you ever heard of someone calling sumo cheating but not willing to criticize excessive arch? Of course neither is literally cheating unless and until there is a rule change, which I don't see forthcoming.
I actually haven't, is that a thing?
@@AlexanderBromley It's not a thing to my knowledge. By spot on I mean Nippard brings up arch like it's a point in his favor, when it's really just another obvious examples of gaming the system, if anything highlighting that the rule set is due for some tweaks.
@@fancyhitchpin8675 lol
@@cookiecutter1773 See, this is why we never say never 😉.
I much prefer Greg Nuckols' take on this to Jeff's. His points actually make sense. It was on a recent SBS episode I believe.
Yeah, his argument had to due with a sort of logical reasoning about why sumo is easier for shorter lifters. Basically this has to due with the strength curve and sticking points. Sumo is hardest at the bottom. Conventional is hardest a bit of the way up the shin. Doing a block pull sumo is waaay easier than from the floor. Doing a block pull conventional below the knee, may actually be harder because there is no momentum through the sticking point. If you are short, you are basically doing a block pull because the relative height of the bar is higher (up a larger % of your body height). So that is probably why you see more of an extreme bias in the lower weight classes (like close to 100%) and less in the very big boi weight classes (close to 0%).
I think this was a decent summary, yeah?
I disagreed with Greg once. Turns out I was wrong
I agree on that sumo is a different lift, and is a worse developmental tool. However:
1- "Not everyone started lifting weights to be a powerlifter" That's true. However the sample is IPF lifters trying to achieve the highest total they can? Lifting the most weight is literally their sport lol
2- Saying that bench arch is a spectrum but sumo isn't is incredibly silly. You see some lifters with super wide stances and some with closer sumo stances.
3- Disingenuous not to show the graph that shows that all the shorter lifters use sumo but almost all of the taller lifters use convential which reinforced his point. (These people are trying to maximise their total so if sumo would give them any more weight on that total you can assume they would do it.)
4- Jeff's point with the ROM difference was used an example to show that height can effect the range of motion differences in individuals. The study that is your smoking gun is comparing convential lifters against sumo in different people with similar AVERAGE heights?
5- This study is also not mentioning the weight lifted with each variation which is what they are measuring in powerlifting. Without this variable measured the study proves nothing. It would have to show that everyone is lifting more weight with sumo.
I also can't tell if the "you used a tape measure not a 3d motion capture" thing was serious but if it was.... wow.
Me a strongman.
Strongman best strength sport.
Powerlifting Sucks.
Powerlifters suck.
Sumo is cheating, arching is cheating, strongman better squatter.
Agree on all fronts. Also if Simon is cheating then what's PEDs 🤔🧐.
Let the sport dictate what is allowed and what's not. Sombo is different from judo because of the rules. Strong man is different from power lifting because of the rules. If it's allowed then it's allowed.
Although on the video they didn't use the tape correctly, it should have been vertical but appeared slightly tilted, adding extra few inches to the measure.
1.)
Point A.) there is a cost to switching; a seasoned conventional puller can absolutely not pivot to sumo on a dime without seriously overhauling their training and re-developing themselves around it. The style you start with is likely to remain your preferred method of pulling.
Point B.) MOST are influenced to start with conventional. People are influenced into lifting through all kinds of sources and none of them prioritize sumo.
I don't know what you think about the training of IPF lifters, but it isn't different than every other group of strength athletes. These are people who found training on their own and got good over a period of time based on work and talent, not perfectly calculated decision making. This isn't Oly lifting where they get you at 9 and teach you what they think will be optimal for Worlds in 10 years.
Strongman parallels this with the jerk. Most use a push press with only a few excelling at the jerk. The reason isn't that you can potentially push press more than you can jerk; the reason is the cost of working against a lifetime of training to overcome a new technical barrier may not be worth it, or if it is it won't be until years down the line.
Just like we know the jerk technique allows for 600+ overhead presses where other styles do not, we know that sumo allows for 1000lb+ pulls at sub-300lbs body weight where other styles do not.
2.)
No. Your hands are outside your legs at the start or they aren't. Once they go in, torque is immediately increased on the low back and range increased. That is a working binary: in or out. There is no identifiable threshold of being arched vs not, just varying degrees of it.
3.)
The conclusion that it 'works better' for the small guys but not the big guys because it's more heavily represented is a complete assumption and a wrong one. It's more likely that social factors dictate what small lifters adopt vs big ones based on early perceptions of the need to 'catch up'. Benedikt was 6', some of the best sumo guys are around that height. Add 50lbs of mass to Browner's frame... you think his deadlift drops??
4.)
Jeff's point was that the difference in ROM wasn't a big deal and he tried to prove it by using 2 people with 135lbs and a tape measure. He ignored a more thorough study that showed a much bigger gap than what he measured for himself. You've used the words 'disengenuous' and silly. Well....
There are surely lifters who might only get marginal benefit from sumo; the point is not that it's a huge gap with everyone. Small changes about the mean make for monster changes at the tail end of the bell curve.
5.)
That's really dumb. Evaluating biomechanics tells you which is mechanically 'stronger', where potential advantage is, but strength doesn't get realized without specific training and adaptation to that movement pattern. There are people who can stiff-leg more than they can conventional, strict press more than they can jerk, bench more with a flat back and flared elbows than otherwise. When we talk about a lift having an advantage it's a discussion about potential, not what people can actually do right now. How you actually trained determines your current abilities.
Where's the lie.
I don't understand why the range of motion per joint part in jeff's video was not mentioned. that has a difference while the range of motion of the bar itself obviously means nothing if the range of motion that the joints experience is the same. You are being unfair a little because that's the strongest evidence to establish equivalence between these exercises in the study (and the reason that the total bar range of motion part of the same study was excluded). You can think sumo is easier like i do but you must be honest with all the arguments presented.(especially the most important one)
Sumo cheaters argue “a deadlift is a deadlift.” If that were the case, Jefferson deadlift should be comp legal. Sure, it’s much easier and more mechanically advantageous over than the other lifts, but it’s a deadlift, right?? They might as well call it a two hands anyhow lift.
Solid point.
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 straight bar and legal plates still have limitations you out the box talkin abt trap bar and wagon wheels for competition which is completely irrelevant to the argument
Confused as you can’t pull more with a sumo deadlift I’d assume
@@autavianfields7284 most people can. It works for shorter people do more power to em but conventional is where it’s at.
@@amishtechwizard5540 well no bc there are plenty of conventional pullers who actually can’t 🤷🏽♂️ but again why put yourself in an disadvantage if your leverages go the other way
It's ok Alexander. We've all messed up the handshake at some point
I’m newer to lifting and learned sumo first so I tend to revert to that because I feel more comfortable in that stance. But now I’m understanding that conventional will likely be better developmentally so I need to get out of that comfort zone.
Also, movie of choice: Goon
If you have serious powerlifting aspirations and that's where you feel at home, nothing wrong with sticking to it. I'm critical of the rules that allow it but still think people should play to their strengths within the rules.
Even if you stick with sumo as your main lift, you should absolutely get out of your comfort zone. Pulling conventional, even as an accessory, will strengthen your hammies, midsection and upper back much faster than sumo will by itself.
@@AlexanderBromley I have my first rookie competition in September at age 49…late to the game, just happy to be here. Lol
I’ve been consuming your content like mad, learning a ton because I don’t have a coach or train at a gym. Currently running a version of Greyskull after watching your videos on programming. Thanks for the excellent content!
@@amypatrick8429 I had my first competition last yr. at age 63. your never too old to do new things. Alex's channel is outstanding. Good luck on your first competition.
@@kenkenly3785 thanks so much!
@@AlexanderBromley I swapped conventional for my usual sumos today…holy crap, they actually felt amazing. I had it in my head that I could move more weight with sumo but I actually don’t know if that’s the case after all.
In minute 11:44 what Jeff is saying bullshit. It’s not about MuScLe AcTiVaTiOn or whatever. It’s just physics. Work=(weight)*(distance).
On the equations below I’m using Jeff’s numbers. Let’s assume he is deadlifting 500lb.
Wsumo= (500 lb)*(16 in) = 8,000 lb-in
Wconv= (500 lb)*(19 in) = 9,500 lb-in
His body is literally doing less work with sumo. Conventional feels harder because it’s physically more work, more effort. Jeff is basically saying that the ~15% difference in Perceived Exertion is due to the work being distributed to other muscles and that’s why it feels easier. WRONG! The 15% literally disappeared. It’s not part of the movement. It’s less Exertion, not less Perceived Exertion.
Sumo is a different test of strength than conventional but I still think it's a great test of strength. Pete Rubish had an interesting take in that if you have a massive sumo deadlift it's pretty unlikely that you have a weak conventional. Hey Bromley, Strongman has all these different deadlift events, hummertire, car deadlift, conventional, why not a sumo deadlift event? I don't get the hate, we should just keep sumo in a category separate from conventional but it's still worthy of respect.
Strong sumo pullers usually have very strong conventional pulls as well. Look at Jamal browner 😂
from a physics standpoint, conventional is scientifically harder and more impressive because work = force x distance, and conventional requires moving the bar over a greater distance, aka exerting a force over a greater distance.
But with this logic can't you say regular pull ups are harder than wide grip pull ups due to longer range of motion, which is obviously not true? I do think conventional is harder than sumo though
I think younger lifters should try their best in both. I'm 56 and stuck with conventional, have held to a few Masters state records in the DL. I tried training with Sumo but it's ugly so far. It may take about a year before I can get even close to what I pull in conventional.
I agree entirely with every point, with that being said I'm still gonna pull sumo because it's fun 🙂
And that's a completely legitimate reason to pull the way you want
Doing the lifts YOU enjoy is good, I am also in the same boat of agreeing with alexander but still doing sumo myself because it's fun and works my legs and glutes nicely
Not trying to argue, but is sumo really using more quad?
I get more kneeflexion when i conventionally deadlift while I can get my hips much closer to the bar when sumo deadlifting and use my adductors more in addition to having a shorter lever between my hips and the center of gravity. When I conventionally deadlift the lift is really easy up to my knees, when I can use my quads to initiate the lift. And I am not trying to squat the bar up.
Anyway, i'm about as strong with sumo as conventional, but conventional is so much easier to execute technically.
Why would it be cheating if everyone is allowed to do it? If it is universally easier and athletes choose to pull conventional isn’t that on them?
What I understand least is the objection to sumo in strongman: if we want to watch athletes perform a very specific movement with precise restrictions and limitations, that sounds a bit like powerlifting to me. I enjoy watching strongman way more because I want to see strong guys and girls move heavy shit from point A to point B and I don’t really care how they do it. Allowing suits and figure 8s but not allowing sumo because it makes it easier, that just doesn’t seem consistent - surely we want either the purest test of strength (in which case belts and straps only) or we want to see the biggest numbers (in which case let the athlete choose what technique works best for them)
In strongman, point B is defined. It's getting the stone on the 60" platform or the yoke to the finish line 40' away. Even in the overhead, you can do whatever the hell you want to get it there... but it ain't 'finished' until the feet are together. On a deadlift, getting your hips through with your toes 5' apart isn't the same finish.
And the amount of people that just want to see 'more weight lifted, period' is so small they aren't even worth talking about. That would be 20" deadlifts, hand-thigh lifts and isometric holds, etc. They are wildly unpopular. Most strongman fans have a definition of strength that involves being useful and they can discern when the feat being performed works against that standard.
My reasoning to Jeff's first point: I have respect for myself and for the lift
BAHAHA
That's the best point I've heard
Then why is your lift, so smol
Another point is how deadlift bars bow so much making it easier at the bottom of the lift which is the toughest part of the sumo deadlift.
It's not cheating in the current rules, but it seems like essentially a variation of the exercise, which seems off to me. I want to see everyone doing the same thing for equal comparison. I'm not interested in one person hex bar deadlifting and another doing conventional, or one guy doing a max weighted pull up while the other does a chin up. I just want everyone doing the same thing on the same playing field.
Yeah I don't understand the arbitrary nature of allowing Sumo but not Jefferson or hack deadlift. They are different movements which are correlated but not equivalent. Sumo has the rare distinction of also being a way for smaller lifters to put up big totals based on leverage and ROM.
Really think they should be split out into different categories, just like raw with wraps vs without.
I think I've been become a bit disillusioned with powerlifting in general. See way too many 2" ROM bench presses and 6" Sumo pulls these days. Over specialization is rampant and detracts from the sport aspect of it in my opinion. I find strongman to be a lot more entertaining.
Thanks for coming back to break this video down. I found it disingenuous and poorly done so it was nice for you guys to call out Nippard.
Where’d you get sumo being 25 percent easier? 😂 my sumo is less than 5 percent more.
What do you think about using a moderate stance sumo as variation? Maybe like a secondary/accessory type of exercise. Maybe even off of deficit to counteract the shorter ROM. Do you think there's any benefit to that?
I think its great as a supplemental pulling movement
What about narrow stance sumo as a developmental tool? I like to do my deadlifts with a narrow stance (about as narrow as conventional), but big gut, big legs and short arms makes it feel much more natural to have my arms between the legs. I think I'm a bit stronger in that position, but not by a whole lot.
It's just about basic logic.If sumo is cheating,then everyone's sumo deadlift would be higher than their conventional deadlift. Obviously that's not true.
That's bad logic. It assumes that you can potentiate one or the other without years of specialized training, which isn't true. Replace sumo and conventional with jerk and push press: if you've never done a jerk you will suck at it but there's no doubt that the potential for a jerk is much much higher. And that's exactly what we see on the all-time deadlift list.
Imo Sumo is just a completely different exercise. Its like comparing a deadlift and a rack pull because they use similar muscle groups. Sumo isn't as comparable to conventional as people like to think.
It's a lot more similar than a rack Pull tbh
Sumo recruits the adductors more than conventional. That, for me, makes them two separate and valuable lifts with slightly different purposes.
If sumo is cheating so is lowbar squat 🤷🏾♂️
In any sport, people press the rules as far as legally possible to win. Wide receivers use the stickiest gloves legally allowed, high jumpers use the Fosbury flop, and some powerlifters use sumo. It isn’t cheating if it’s not against the rules 🤷♂️
Damn this is the most scientific roast in exercise science that I have ever seen in UT fitness
Why don't people call the clean & jerk a cheater snatch? Why don't we consider sumo and conventional different lifts? Why am I even taking the time to write this? I say you live your life over there and I will live mine over here.
I got lit up on Reddit by filthy casuals for saying that most people should pull sumo and low bar squat if you can
Bromely I'm about start my first week of the peak phase on Bullmastiff and mainly care about my bench and squat. Could I replace ohp and deadlift for them?
Work (J) = Force (Mass X Acc.) X Displacement (meters)....Yes acceleration is a factor and yes the transfer of potential energy to kinetic energy along with friction, vector quantities, etc play a role....if done in a vacuum doing a sumo lift literally means doing less work.
I specifically use sumo for hamstring development.. to improve my squat and conventional pull.
Note… I have a home gym I’m which a barbell is the only device I have to load and use weight.
where is bruce lu from ? When i search him on google it only shows me bruce lee stuff
He seems to have transitioned into chinese content. If you search bruce lu its the first one but its all in chinese.
I truly think the only people who cannot admit this are those with an emotional attachment to their Sumo PR.
What would you guys suggest for someone with short arms (I’m 5’10 with a 5’8 wingspan) and long legs? I’ve tried frog sumo but I don’t even think it helps more than conventional. At least benching is fun lol…
Become a full on bench specialist 😎👍
I suggest you keep lifting and keep getting stronger
A couple of months ago i deadlifted 415 conventional then I did 425 without even training sumo.
You have a movie review channel? So, this year is the 30th anniversary of The Crow. You know what you have to do.
If sumo is cheating because there's less range of motion and you can use more weight then conventional is also cheating since we could use deficit deadlift.
I had heavy lifting jobs in my youth. Moved pool tables, utility construction, and EMS. I lifted for a living for over a decade. My foot stance was probably closer to Shaw/Hall in that it’s slightly wider than shoulder. But never did I lift wide legged.
I had heavy lifting jobs too. Sometimes, you have to lift with your legs open because your knees would get in the way if you didn't.
Bromley reacts to Bruce reacting to Jeff Nippard. Is this the highest level of content or has Bromley run out of ideas?
I guess I'll just have to watch the video and find out
I have tried both stance, and suprisingly conventional was better for me. I am a 225 Ibs guy at the height of 6’3, have a wide and strong hip strucure, but hip mobility is not great.
Will not pull sumo.
But i have no problem with people pulling sumo. At least they are deadlifting, and training their legs and some low back. Lot of people not even deadlifting, because: „they dont want to get their low back injured” or „fuck the compound movements”. That is nonsense. The best exercise ever after free weight back squats.
Thanks to both of you for putting into words what is observable by just looking at someone pull sumo or trying it yourself. These sumo people just say leverages and BS and they most of the time don't even know what that means.
It's a crime that this only has 25k views
These sumo vs conventional debates shall continue for ever.
Important question is that is sumo really cheating? What cheating actually means? It means deceiving other people for the sake of personal benefits. But sumo is performed in the presence of authorized judges and under the official rules. How come is this a cheating then? It is not.
Secondly, if sumo allows to pull more weight, then doesn't it mean it is more efficient way of pulling? Powerlifters are always trying to move heavier weights for shortest possible legally allowed distance. Then why they loathe it in case of deadlift?
Third, if sumo allows more weight, then why not conventional pullers pull twice more weight in sumo?
By the way, I am equally good at both as I practice both. So please....
I think that "The Godfather Part II" was a better movie than "The Godfather". Prove me wrong.
I do sumo deficit deadlifts and SLDL deficits for hypertrophy training on the back of my legs and get great gains
As someone who has pulled both ways sumo is just a quad exercise. If you want to work your lower back nothing does it better than conventional deadlift. Powerlifting need to ban sumo and stop treating it the same as conventional. I once saw a guy lift 700 pounds sumo but when they made him lift conventional he barley lifted 418. No joke. If that's not proof that sumo is at the very least a terrible developable exercise I don't know what is
Hell yea love the love. Too many people hate on others and feel like if someone else is growing then they are shrinking. Im glad u know that promo for another isnt detriment to you.
I think people should still do at least some work on the sumo deadlift because of just how much it transfers to daily life. Every time I have gotten to carry a heavy big box around somewhere I've had to do a sumo deadlift of sorts to be able to carry it because, in a conventional one, the box-thing would bump on my legs. I would argue that conventional deads are for when you carry something big with a partner and sumo deads are for carrying something big on your own.
That's why I've always seen this debate as pointless. It's like comparing pull-ups to chinups; one is just a version that tends to be easier, so really, you should just compare each to eachother (conventional Vs conventional and sumos to sumos).
I competed using both conventional and sumo. I can lift more in a sumo. but I believe conventional is best for overall strength. Sumo in my opinion is just good for powerlifting competition.
Sumo exists on a spectrum too, just like squat stance width. Not sure what the point is here.
Hands in vs hands outside the legs. Thats a binary standard. You can vary stance width but there is a quantized jump once the hands go inside that creates an immediate benefit
Alexander Bromley The people who are deadlifting stupid numbers at low body weights are just built for it. They are performing a normal persons above the knee rack pull. Seriously all those guys start upright and lock out at their knees. My point is that normally built people don’t have a huge difference between their deadlift style
Stick to conventional, RDL, or straight leg. Sumo is purely for ego or strongmam shit.
LMAO ..This is Entertaining. *crying laughing face emoji
Strongmen will say sumo is cheating and then wear a deadlift suit and straps
Not a fan of sumo or leg press(different workout for another discussion). I hear they work better on particular muscles or that they can be used an accessory. Idk its a different exercise to change it up a bit. I do find it funny how lots of people put vids of their max sumo but their conventional you may see one or none at all lol. Do it for the gram.
I compete conventional but train both. Summo is way harder for me off the floor. If you think summo is way easier, then go to a competition and break some records. Most just talk and don't actually lift. By the way, the bull mastiff program by Bromley is super awesome and I love it
I agree with Bruce majority of the population will pull more sumo I personally pull more conventional I tried sumo quite a few years thinking I could add more to my max and got pretty good at it but just could never pull as much as I do conventional so I switched back and it’s so much easier
Sumo is such a silly looking lift. I'd much rather lift less weight with a conventional deadlift than be seen pulling sumo.
If it feels harder then it IS harder.
I realize posting this a year later that it likely will not be seen, but there are a few points I would like to provide an opinion on. I understand that very wide stance sumo is easier due to a decrease in ROM, but you went at some of this the wrong way. a) Jeff cited a study on powerlifters that competed in a pretty big meet, you guys ignored that and acted as if it was just general population and stated that its just because noncompetors used conventional more... it was a competition study. b) he referenced an anecdote instead of a study for something, you got mad and said use study, and then he used the study later and you said "ya but look at anecdote." c) sumo is a spectrum, a lot of people can not realistically get into so wide of a stance that they can move the bar under 1 foot and get a lock out, for some people their hip mobility isn't very good and they can't get out there, and, even for myself, I am not overly good at the sumo position, I feel it bugs my hips a lot more than a conventional one. the hardest part of sumo is off the floor while the hardest part of conventional is normally at the knees, and if you can't get into an overly advantaged position you aren't really getting that position in which your range of motion is decreased so much that it removes the most difficult part of the lift. Do I believe that sumo deadlifting is better if your leverages are good for it or you are willing to put in enough work to perfect it and take enough time out of your day for solid mobility, likely. Do I also believe that for certain people, normally ones who are heavier and have issues with getting into good positions for sumo, its realistically not a major advantage, and likely not one at all, also yes. I am an example of the latter situation, where I am not overly heavy (about 180lbs at 20% body fat, the accurate body fat not that bullshit bf% tests you see online those put me at about 12%) but I am unfortunately blessed with the shoulder and hip mobility genetics of a rock. Coming off of an elbow injury due to baseball I made it a goal to chase a 450lb deadlift, and during that I found that even though I had been working on my hips, it was infinitely easier for me to pull conventional and I could recover better from it. On top of this, I feel the conventional deadlift is better for athletes, and especially in my sport as it is more posterior chain dominant, and it is known that the glutes are the main power developers in athletes, and that specifically in baseball the upper back plays a major role in arm and shoulder health. I have however found that when I am not feeling good on lifting and am experiencing barriers that prevent me from training as much, such as rehabbing from my elbow surgery or being in season, sumo deadlift was a much better lift for me as sometimes I did not have it in me to be in the gym as often. I would run full body days and try hard to keep it to 3-4 exercises so I could tell myself I'd done enough to at least maintain while my priorities were somewhere else, and I felt that sumo deadlifting was a much better exercise for me as a lower body developer since a) I did not have great leverages so my stance wasn't really in a position that gave me any real advantage, b) it hit my quads more, and sometimes back squatting and front squatting could result in elbow issues due to my UCL being pulled laterally to hold the bar in place. this made it a good tool for me then, and when I got back into conventional deadlifting vs sumo deadlifting, I just found conventional was still better for my strength numbers due to my overall posterior chain dominance in my phyisque. I also just felt that your entire video just had a destain for science based lifters. Jeff is a very well accomplished lifter, and has used science very well. he's competed on the world stage as a bodybuilder and powerlifter using these methods, and I would trust him based off of that alone. though recently I don't agree with his pure bodybuilding stuff because thats not how I try to train, I generally would support Jeff as one of the few people who brand themselves as science based and nearly always respects research, as well as pointing out his bias when it is there. I agree that in exercise science research is always catching up with experience, but I believe that Jeff made some very good points in this video, and that you had a few hypocritical approaches such as bashing him for using a powerlifting competition study instead of just using people in the gym, then getting mad at him using anecdote, and then telling him him using a study that you just told him you wanted him to use was dumb because the anecdote you saw was more pronounced. Do I believe that most people are better at sumo, yes, but did you approach this video with an at all open mindset, god no.
I have a feeling Alexander Bromley is a huge fan of Jeff Nippard. I like his info and programs, its given me a lot of strength gains... but the criticism is fair either way.
is it normal that my low bar squat 5 rep max is 355 but my 5 rep deadlift max is 475?
Great video. I should have watched this when it first came out. Sika just put out a shorter, simpler video on this topic, and I'm gladder a commenter there reminded me about this video.
Darth Bromley will convert Bruce to the dark side
"Big guys don't use sumo because physically" Yeah, that must be why all the sodium monsters from Westside pulled sumo.
Great video! Review Terminator 3! I think it’s kind of underrated at this point, considering it wasn’t viewed as a worthy send-off to the series, but all of the subsequent attempts at sequels to finish the series have been vastly inferior.
Super Heavyweights use conventional because they care about absolute strength. Little guys care about relative strength.
They're not doing sumo because it's *harder* after all.
this doesn't make sense because if sumo was easier than their ABSOLUTE pull with sumo would still be higher
@@pathlastname9278 It makes perfect sense. SHs care about displaying absolute strength, they don't think sumo is as legitimate as conventional, therefore...
I still disagree with the research study. The only truly accurate way to see the difference between sumo and conventional is to have the same lifter perform both. At a minimum, arm length and the way they set their traps/shoulders would play a significant role in the final result.
I think the "That's what science says voice" is just Nippards standard voice lol.
The term in and of itself proves that sumo is cheating and came after. You’re literally leg pressing the majority of the weight vs recruiting more core muscles and building more (overall) strength
Great video. Sumo gives the lifter a higher ceiling. Doesn't guarantee that potential is fulfilled but it is more potential nonetheless.
Example: what can be hit further in their respective sports: a tennis ball, a baseball, or a golf ball? A pro golfer can hit a golf ball about twice as far as what a pro baseball player can hit a baseball. And the baseball player can roughly double up what a pro tennis player can hit. Does that mean Serena Williams can hit a baseball further than she can hit a tennis ball? Obviously not, since she has high proficiency with the tennis ball and might only hit the baseball a few feet. But, if she were to start over from scratch and focus on baseball for the past 30 years, she'd obviously hit a baseball much further than she could ever hit a tennis ball.
Good topic and good info. I love the ebook you made. Great stuff bro
This was a good video, thank you for sharing. I also appreciate you supporting a new channel.
I mean what is cheating? A deadlift is just that, lift from dead stop off the floor. The only way it can be cheating is if we standardize conventional, making sumo a secondary movement.
sumo is a good secondary movement to the conventional is what i think. Conv builds up your sumo. Sumo doesnt translate that well to the conventional. For the powerlifter just go sumo in comp
That study didn’t measure both for each lifter….they did 12 and 12 which doesn’t accommodate for individual limb lengths or stance width variations across all those lifters thus also being an invalid study
If they were to measure both sumo and conventional for each lifter, they'd have to find a handful of lifters who are equally proficient in both styles, which is almost impossible to find as you either pull sumo as your main lift or conventional. In this study they matched the subject characteristics (age, experience, height, weight, RPE when performing the lift during the test etc.) in both groups as much as they could to minimize bias. Every study has some limitations and these limitations don't make them invalid. In fact, this article was published in "Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise", a peer-reviewed journal that has always kept its impact factor over 4, which is an excellent score considering the average journal impact factor is less than 1.
@@kdekded this still disregards limb length to height ratios which can skew the rom reduction percentage right bc you can have a tall sumo puller with shirt arms and a tall conventional puller with long arms and the rom could be the sane or be less for a conventional puller ? Bc it doesn’t matter the experience rpe or strength standard that’s irrelevant to the actual study of reduced rom being considered cheating ? Bc then for example andrzej stanaszek a midget pulls conventional and has way less rom should his deadlifts count ?
@@kdekded or Stuart Jamison’s world record deadlift it’s conventional but his proportions allow him an extremely low rom for conventional so would his count ?
@@autavianfields7284 1) If they could find 24 lifters who matched limb/height ratio and everything else then yeah it would be a better study but then the recruitment would take months even years. Again, no study is perfect, but that study is good enough. You don't have to accept it or agree with it, but the experts in the field accepted and acknowledged it. 2) I don't know what you are trying to say. 3) He would still have a larger ROM when pulling conventional vs sumo.
@@kdekded does Eddie hall and halfthors count bc it’s conventional? even tho they use straps and suits suits and can hitch these weights if needed for All time world record deadlifts ?
I never could pin point why I thought sumo was “cheating” just watching it something felt weird. Me and one other dude in the gym pull conventional everyone else pulls sumo
I've been enjoying your videos and slowly been watching the back catalogue as learn more and get more experience lifting. However, I do want to take you up on your offer. Review the 2015 Film "The Lobster", I would be keen to hear your take on it :D.
I have been waiting for a long time for your response on this topic
Can't wait for Jeff to react to Alex reacting to Bruce reacting to Jeff's video!
I am positive Jeff has better uses of his time lol. But that would complete this tur-duck-en of a video series.
Jeff will probably sit this one out.
@@AlexanderBromley I just want to see it go to such ridiculous lengths that by the 10th reaction, you can't even see the original video anymore.
@@reggie7716 Eh, he pretty much got called out on not actually reading that 1 study which countered one of his main points so yea, doubt we'll see a response.
Watching Bromley, watching Bruce, watching Jeff... this is some inception Stuff right here. Great vid, Alex!
Sumo is fucking cheating! Well, it's cheating if you're competing in strongman lol. In powerlifting it's all about body mechanics.
sumo is not Cheating! but sumo is sumo ! conventional is conventional ! is different! so both deadlift need to Separate calculation!
I'm cool with that if we also are all are willing to apply that to a flat back bench press vs an arched back bench press and a high bar squat vs a low bar squat. That's the only way applying thay logic imakes any practical sense in a competition setting.
I hate sumo. Just my opinion.
My fave movie is: Bourne Identity
Thank you for making this video. We all know sumo is cheating, this simply is evidence I will be linking to all the scrawny tik tok kids that try to “clap back” on Instagram.
It's sad that this got so few views. aLgOrItHm love for ya right here
Jeff using "well not everyone does it" as proof that it's not cheating is ignoring that A) not everyone wants to be #1, tons of powerlifters only compete 'against themselves' and B) if you think it's cheating, you probably won't do it
The sample he chose is IPF lifters competing at the top levels? They are definitely trying to be number 1 lmfao wtf.
@@DarkDrake5481 you're right, i honestly forgot that part
The trend is that until you get to the heavier weight classes, most DL records are sumo. The bigger dudes tend to have less hip mobility, which is probably why they all pull conventional, otherwise they'd probably pull sumo as well.
He does have good editing, Subscribed. Seems like a respectful disagreement that we can learn from.
Captain America Civil War review
I now have standing rebuttal against Jeff. This has had very good carry over to my bench.
17:05 talk about your favorite quentin tarantino movie, mine is django unchained
I love me some Tarantino
Thanks for introducing us to Bruce. Sumo is cheating, no one compares decline bench press numbers to regular flat bench. Jeff not sharing the numbers from the study he himself looked at is either gross incompetence or deliberately misleading.
He did share in his full video they cut that out actually 😂 and again if sumo was cheating more people would take advantage of it unfortunately that’s not the case an even if so it’s based on body mechanics
@@autavianfields7284 I compete as a powerlifter, sumo should not be recorded with convintional no more than decline bench numbers be recorded with regular bench press. If it is going to remain in powerlifting (which it certainly will) it should at least be given its own category.
@@reggie7716 and why’s that when there are plenty of conventional pullers that pull more than sumo pullers
@@autavianfields7284 Jeff did not share the ROM difference reported in the study.
@@kdekded true he did not but he did share the other ipf statistics with smaller lifters using sumo much more often
Review the Batman. I personally loved the detective noir style Batman. I do wish someone got R Pats pulling conventional.... or even sumo for that matter.
Nothing wrong with sumo. I don't lift sumo because Im straight, but, whatever.
My favourite movie is Angus, Thongs and Perfect Snogging. I've never watched it but I get funny stares when I recommend it. Hope that helps Alexander