New Iron-Air Battery outperforms best Lithium Ion tech. Cheap. Abundant. Non-toxic & Carbon Free.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2021
- Iron Air batteries use cheap, non toxic, abundant materials and potentially have a far higher energy density than Lithium Ion batteries. The technology was first developed by NASA in the seventies, but no major commercial application has ever come to fruition. Now though, a US company, backed by some pretty big investors, has developed a grid scale iron air battery that could be a real industry disruptor.
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Research Links
Form Energy Inc.
formenergy.com/technology/
• A “Reversible Rust" Ba...
Nant Energy Inc.
nantenergy.com/
Alex Hain article on Iron Air technology 2019
www.alexhsain.org/blog/ironair
www.researchgate.net/publicat... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
As an Aussie, it might be easier for our Luddite government to get on board with something bearing the name “iron”, our chief export commodity.
They should be in talks with Form as a potential manufacturer... But then, I've learnt to never hold my breath waiting for Australia to move from a primary resource provider to manufacturing economy...
They should call it the "Cell of Air Lithiumfree Battery", or COAL battery, then you guys would have millions of them.
as a brazillian I have the same opinion
@@Muppetkeeper Bravo!
Ya, something already proven to be better, the lithium IRON phosphate 😁
Density isn't a problem for stationary applications like this IMO. Stick one of these in every new build home and you're well on your way, saving the lithium for applications that really need it.
Lithium-ion and iron-air will likely work in tandem, with li-ion handling storage up to 8 hours, and something like iron-air for longer storage.
Lithium-ion for grid storage will likely use the LiFePo chemistry, which is mostly iron and phosphorous. Lithium in the long run won't be scarce, and Fe, P are abundant.
I worry about the energy density. The example offered is 1 MW per acre. 3 MW at best. So, to go a grid sized battery e.g 500mw, it's going to need hundreds of acres. Not an impossible achievement but a significant amount nevertheless.
@@billhill4479 this technology is still in it's infancy too. It wouldn't be surprising if they increase energy density by quite a bit. (Also nothing is stopping them from building up/down when land becomes a limiting factor
@@billhill4479 in these discussions I notice a lot of (obviously knowledgeable) people use e.g. 'mw' ( megawatt) when they actually mean megawatt-hours. Commenting on energy density, you must mean megawatt-hours/acre...has this become a shorthand convention or is it simply inattention to accuracy? I'm not concerned about those who are just ignoramuses & don't know what they're talking about, but you've apparently done at least a bit of research yet write a comment which in technical terms is meaningless.
@@Nighthawk20000 agreed. there are plenty of played out mines, dead subway lines, or they could dig the equivalent of missile silos to stack them in. If they were rolled out for home owners to power their homes and charged on off peak hours it would save the individual money, be an emergency power source for home or grid, and lower peak demand for electricity. batteries need to come in many flavors just like fossil fuels have to meet specific needs
I am curious if there is a catch. I am wondering what the coulombic efficiency is, and C rate. If either one is low, that would give good reason why it's being used for stationary use only despite having an incredibly high specific energy. At 700+Wh per kg, you could easily build an electric plane. But that doesn't seem to be their goal at all. I have so many questions now. I will be emailing them soon. I want to get my hands on one!!
Update: unfortunately I was correct. Around 50% coulombic efficiency, and very very low c rate. I couldn't find any exact figures but there are some lecturers that cover this. Makes sense considering how similar it is to nickel iron batteries. These may work for stationary use, but that's it. I can't wait to see how well they actually work considering how bad the efficiency is. Ahh well.
Yes! And to think that recycling these would use existing steel recycling streams. I didn't hear a mention of cycle life, but maybe I missed it
I think that the 700+Wh per kg, is just the theoretical limit.
agreed will
All chemistries have very high theoretical energy potential, in practice only a fraction is realised.
I think you are correct about the C rate.
My thought is, living rural on acreage, having a couple of these units to store the output from a wind turbine would be great. Power outages are frequent and prolonged due to trees falling on lines, etc and few people using that power grid. The towns and cities get their power back on much faster.
For once, we have an episode that doesn't end with "unfortunately, this is just early work and far from large scale production". Stay hopeful folks!
sure, I'm building a 1MW solar farm in my ranch, lets see if I can get a 100KW battery in 2023, I dunno...
Unfortunately Iron Batteries are only 60% efficient.
@@wooferhound7571 still good value for money, it seems.
@@wooferhound7571 If that is so this is very good.
Zinc air is 30% and aluminium air even less 18%.
@WooferHound if it does no harm it doesn't matter how efficient it is.
Many years ago I worked at a firm with an unreliable grid supply and we used lead acid batteries. We eventually used an old submarine battery, and then bought a wind turbine which is still running after 10 years.
"Reversible rusting", I'm loving it! There's lots of rust in my area. Too bad there isn't a viable rust reversal for my vehicle.
ha ha ha
I imagine a future where the automatic car wash also "reverse rusts" your car before it washes it, lol.
there is! though it would require immersion in electrolyte and electric shocks😁
@@dizzywilliams3557 that’s not a problem.
There's a fellow who built a tank full of dilute molasses to reverse his trailer into. (Apparently, molasses contains or produces by reaction chelating agents). As mentioned, there are also electrolytic methods.
I've researched this before. The air part has a couple of problems
- it limits battery density
- it limits its use cases (you cant move around with it)
- it may not be safe to put anything electrically sensitive near
- solving the above issues by using high pressure air and sealing the battery may reduce capacity compared to lithium.
This sounds very promising. Good luck to FORM scaling FeAir up to a real world solution. Keep us posted on progress. Thank you for another excellent video.
It's just another sideshow. Forget about it.
Side solar and wind just use up more resources and put more poison out in the environment there's no way they can be recycled yet
@@brandonmusser3119 No way what can be recycled ? There's a problem with recycling the fibreglass in wind turbine blades but everything else recycles wonderfully. Also glass isn't a poison !
Solar PV panels will probably go on generating electricity for 100 years or more, albeit at reduced efficiency but it's paid for after say 15 years so who cares ?
Every time this benighted huckster opens his mouth he spouts disingenuous nonsense in which the wide-eyed youtube flock here love. The best battery storage resolutions won't scratch the surface of the grid-scale energy storage conundrum. The periodic table and the physics simply DO NOT LEND THEMSELVES TO RESOLVING SUCH A GRID SCALE BATTERY STORAGE PROBLEM.
@@grahamstevenson1740 no the heavy metals and stuff in there do not recycle they will have to be buried somewhere far away from us and other animals heavy metals are dangerous if you don't believe me go do a little research it won't take very much
that is very, VERY encouraging development.
No it isn't. There is no evidence this alleged battery even exists.
The dream is installing a unit in every home, charging and discharging the grid as needed. That would entirely eliminate energy spikes. Effectively a big fat UPS by your outdoor condenser.
Your EV is that.
@@crhu319 your EV can do it but what dose it do to the cycle life? If your car is good for 250k miles or 1,000 cycles over 10 years, and you do a cycle every day while the car sits on your drive way....
100% this... I'm tired of hearing of these all being grid-scale.
99% of all outages I know of (Only the big ones make the news) are "last mile", When it comes to the regular daily (there's always power out somewhere) outages, grid scale helps NO ONE. Grid scale needs to be only an interim solution where the infrastructure can't yet handle point-of-load storage or buffering. Sure, load the keep-out area of active or decommissioned nuclear plants, around coal plants, etc (already dedicated land owned by the power companies) and there is room around almost any sub-station for a few mega-packs but those need to be supplemental to last-mile storage. Having distributed capacitors is never a bad thing, but it needs to be the least-focused piece.
The economies of scale definitely work for grid-scale, but is that what the battery and inverter companies want when they can gouge individual consumers at retail prices? Grid-scale requires large plots of land, buildings, building permits, large time-consuming projects that take months/years filled with not-in-my-backyard protests. Point-of-load provides jobs for many installers instead of a small crew, the permitting is spread out to local authorities, the projects go in much faster, and when you CHOOSE to have it installed, it's yes-in-my-backyard.
If the power companies want to own and control the storage, our neighborhood also has in-ground transformers that could be deepened. An option they could offer would be to put their own version of the power-wall upstream of the meter, then if I want to install solar, they would still own the safety-disconnect aspect and can coordinate the neighborhood smart-grid to either assist the supply of the sub-grid or disconnect it completely if necessary. They could also just subsidize any home power-wall/solar installations and then charge/credit under a number of schemes - ie: excess energy generation is paid as credit towards the equipment lease or perhaps fixed monthly lease price (paid-off at end of lease) and the sell-back is credit
@@AaronCoakley Microgrids are one way to better prepare the grid for all renewables, efficiency, and climate change events.
If the technology was really cheap, then there would be companies using it to monetize the energy demand spikes.
The: "can power the grid for 6 days" is just marketing speak for: we can't discharge any faster then this XD. The slow reaction rate aside, it doesn't matter if its cheap, just make more and you increase power of the whole setup.
Also very easy to maintenance, repair, replace, and responsibly dispose of. Those are all great costs in battery industry as it is now.
Sounds like high density storage with a slow charge and slow discharge. I like the liquid metal battery best for grid scale storage where you want rapid max charge, rapid max discharge, low cost, safety, and 100 year lifespan in heavy use. High max rates allow more aggressive grid stabilization when needed (you need more aggressive grid stabilization when you take fossil fuel off the grid).
I suspect the discharge rate is also temperature dependant,in any case, it looks like it could be a part of the solution.
Which is fine, really. Weather patterns persist for days, so long term storage works great for that.
@@tsamuel6224 Why not both?
Why don't they mention the idea of residential (battery) energy storage? Many homes should be able to handle a washing machine size battery at least as easily as 1 or 2 Tesla batteries. I must be missing something....
Because we should be using zero batteries
Yes I hope this works out. No more need for power stations and big energy bills from greedy companies
Generally, there's three issues with residential storage - cost, service, and regulation. On the cost side, all energy systems have some sort of support components - the 'balance of plant'. Even if it's just a box and a fan, the Balance of Plant for small systems tends to be very expensive compared to grid scale. Similarly, someone has to occasionally provide service to the battery. Residential scale service has a high entry barrier- even if it's just training new service techs, and few companies want to front that cost. Finally, is regulation. The grid is interconnected. In the event of a power interruption, a central premise of all utilities is that power is off at source. Batteries make the grid into 'electrified islands' that present risk to line repair folks so regulation requires automatic disconnect equipment, etc. That also costs a lot of money when you're talking about millions of little houses instead of a few thousand substations.
@@occhams1 economies of scale
What the video doesn't say is what the storage capacity of the washing machine sized battery might be, therefore how many you would need to complement a home generating set up. If, for instance, 20 were needed for such a purpose, only very few homes could afford the space.
As Lil Jon would say, "What?" "Yeah!" "Let's Go!"
LMAO!!!!!!
The quality of information you bring us, combined with the simple way you present it and your accent makes your videos such a joy to watch/listen to, while being relaxing at the same time!
Absolutely mind blowing technology, yet seemingly simple in theory. I just got into the renewable energy/storage industry myself, graduated from high school last year. We are getting so much closer to being able to deploy these systems anywhere. I would love to see these deployed along with high capacity solar in developing countries, where lack of infrastructure is the largest problem in trying to establish any real industry. We are getting closer very quickly, and it is extremely exciting! What a time to be alive.
Try to invent a solar cell that doesn't eventually wind up in a landfill in 20 years.
@@235buz Silicon based solar cells are not the only way to harvest solar energy
Caden, you make an old man very happy. What a great attitude!!
But why do you believe this is real when there isn't so much as a photo of the alleged (non existent) battery? You're so gullible.
@@Withnail1969 Metal-air electromechanical cells already exist. This is just a variation. This company is also not the only one to have worked on developing these cells and there are published papers on the topic. The chemistry also makes sense to me. If we can accelerate rusting with electrolysis why can’t we do the opposite? Why are you so quick to push it off as fake?
I always thought that my first car, a 1978 Pontiac Acadian, was a rusty piece of junk. Now I find out that it was merely transforming itself into a rechargeable battery. Who knew?!!
This is actually a great breakthrough.
With accessibility to the raw materials anywhere, these can be built in every country.
Of all technologies in development so far, this one seems like the most promising, and ready for deployment.
I hope I'm right.
There are only 2 reasons for hooking-up to the " Grid " ( The Power Company ) !
1) Is to Sell Power Back to the Power Co. . And the Other is;
2) The homeowner can't afford his Own generating system !
The home owner can afford " his own generating system"
It's the storage that is still prohibitive.
Paying for poles, wires and transformers in a rural area is seriously expensive.
If building where I live now, I would go stand alone far cheaper.
Reversing the rust process is in itself a mind blowing concept. The spin off ideas from this will save important structures like bridges, ships and anything else where we spend lots of money trying to delay the inevitable rusting process.
It's an interesting idea, but bridges and the like are made of steel, not raw iron. I'm wondering how reversing the oxidation of iron affects the structure and carbon content of steel which has been created and heat treated to achieve a specific toughness/hardness for any given use.
In the 1980s I worked in the gas supply industry and I was advised that sacrificial anodes were used to protect pipework.
Oh man, I was just chatting with this with my friend who had interned there and was finally able to discuss their chemistry
That's exciting! I've spent a long time being skeptical about Form Energy because of the reliance on secrecy instead of patent.
What is the cathode material? If it's protected by patent, as the video states, it doesn't need to be secret.
@@somerandomnification Likely its the design of the cathode which may be copied with similar setup
So what did your friend say?
@@bru512 pretty much the same stuff that was outlined in the video. When he worked there he was just an intern and it was also two years ago so things have changed since then.
The "rust doctor" battery sounds awesome, the advent if advanced semi permiable materials is a game changer for sure 👍
like good old Goretex ?
@@diaman_d exactly what came to mind
they should pair it with graphene supercapacitors to solve the problem of high discharge rate.
@@diaman_d , Gortex was a wonderful idea, (if the correct water-repellent chemistry had been developed), however all of those waterproofing materials were made with PFAS chemicals... which we absorb, but apparently cannot cleanse from our bodies. Eventually; (depending upon exposure, and other uncontrollable factors), cancer can develop from it. :-(
I couldn't believe it, the other day, when I got a petition to sign, to support a new bill for the cosmetics industry (here in the U.S.).. that they can never use PFAS chemicals in cosmetics AT ALL... (and they had a picture of lipstick, being put on a pair of lips). Is that the height of irresponsibility ? or what. ?
Hey, but it looks as though we have finally discovered a very important key, which will finally enable 100% renewable energy, to replace all fossil fuels. The biggest thing is the huge mass of iron, in and on the Earth.... I truly pray that the mining processes used to extract the iron, can be totally restored, with permaculture... I'd actually love to see that stipulation, as a binding responsibility... to restore the environment 100%. This podcast gives me some hope for things to track in a positive direction, so we can learn to dance with our big Mother.
Almost 300K Subs!!! Very well deserved!
There is a potential there, couldn't be anymore excited. Thank you for the great work.
Being a mariner, all this time I didn't know that rust can be turned back into iron. Sounds amazing.
Rust is how we find it in nature, unless we're lucky enough to find an intact meteorite, turning it into iron is step one.
Common rust is heavily hydrated form (contains lots of water molecules) but here rust can be reduced to iron back by electrolysis. But the voltage will be lower- he does not say how much. Oxygen reduction has high overpotential- means it is intrinsically inefficient and produces lots of heat. I do not know about the efficiency of such a cell.
Imagine turning the ship hull into a giant cathode?:0
Shame we can't grow ship hulls on a conductive framework submerged in rusty water.
@@morkovija that's why iron hull ships have aluminum anode blocks bolted to the exterior of the hull, to prevent oxidation.
Washing machine size - looks like this could be used as home energy solution? I'd definitely would want to combine this with roof solar panels!
I was wondering about how much capacity that washing machine sized battery had. If it weighs 100kg (not a lot for something that size) then it's going to br 75kWh roughly. If it's more like 200kg then 150kWh and suitable for "distributed storage". Now that really would be a game changer.
They probably will end up working with Li-ion LiFePo chemistry for short-term storage, and a unit or more of these iron-air batteries for long-term storage at home.
I imagine the fruits of these low cost per Kwh batteries will primarily go to large corporate entities for the foreseeable. Consumer units will be a low priority - just look at the investors so far.
indeed, i'm always amazed these battery companies never seem to address the house size factor, its got to be a big market.
@@rtfazeberdee3519 Industrial markets are easier to sell to. They buy lots at once and sign long-term contracts. It costs a lot more to sell individual units.
We need more of these really sensible and informative items. Thanks.
This is the MOST exciting energy related video I have seen in a long time.. It's already here.
Good luck to them, we need everything that people can invent, absolutely everything that works. I'd love a washing machine sized battery at home please :-)
I could see shipping container sized battery cells at every wind farm and solar farm as well as at ev recharging stations. This should go a long way to making self contained energy generating desalination and water purification stations all over the world. Let's get moving on this in a big way. Get Elon involved.
Imagine a "footprint" of 2 washing machine sized batteries, with a wind power system keeping it at 90% at all times. Make it two stack units and get twice the power per square foot.
Hi. I make homemade batteries. I’m working on a cheap nickel zinc battery 🔋. On my TH-cam channel.
@The Tired Horizon I am hopeful that, after I fully investigate this, I can put the unit inside my utility room. Cost per unit is a definite factor, but it looks like you can add or remove units as needed. Imagine 2 of them doing a credible job, and being able to remove one for servicing, and not have to tear down the system. I am thinking about having up to four of them to power my farm. Small ( 8 feet or less) diameter wind generators ( in Kansas, the wind only stops to change direction, lol) will supply adequate power. It might be possible to charge off of a vehicle battery, but I don't see that as a common use.
Great video as usual Dave....
I must also thank the patreons for making this channel available to rest of us.
Dave does this very passionately, yet keeps his enthusiasm in check so the content is highlighted.
Great work Dave.
Thanks Rajesh. I appreciate your support :-)
Dave is a great presenter as opposed to others who are the annoying smart ass kids in school everyone hated.
How wonderful to hear that this technology is advancing so quickly!
It would be wonderful if one day you could go to home Depot and purchase one or two of these batteries and a couple of solar panels and hook yourself up to be off grid.
It is not that far off, it seems
Start with your energy needs. A typical house needs 10 to 30 KWh per day.
Second that, batteries are so expensive.
I think it would be a great storage device for EV charging stations to store large amounts of electricity. It is cheap holds a lot of charge and it would relief the grid of power surges. I wonder how it will perform in the Canadian cold?
Thank you for this analysis! I enjoy your research
As always, a very enjoyable explanation of a subject that is so relevant! This project sounds really promising and I'll be really interested to see if it fulfills it's promise! Great channel to subscribe to for intelligible viewpoints on our future!
I love these videos, good to see people who have hope for the future! This genuinely got me excited, so many applications, at that size could even be used in homes as an alternative to current Li-ion Power walls? making solar panel installs viable again after the drop of buy back rates on KWH's. A battery the size of a washing machine could find space in a home, but how many KWH would that theoretically store?
You little admirer aced your portrait! And a thought provoking video, thank you!
Much obliged for so eloquently spreading the wisdom of hope for the rise of human intelligence!🤞
Beautiful, excellent. Old ships can be turned into a giant iron air batteries, and sail and watermill generators to catch wind and sea currents energy.
Utter nonsense, no they can't.
@@Withnail1969 Not a scientist are you? no such word as cant its just a challenge!
@@jostouw4366 Sorry that's not science, it's just nonsense. Nothing of the kind will ever happen and iron/air batteries do not exist.
Excellent !
i guess i have to take another look at the Aluminium-Air thing as well.
Thanks !
Everytime I watch these episodes about battery storage, I get more and more hopeful about building my dream off-grid home with minimum sacrifices. Thanks for the info!
youre delusional. these videos are all nonsense.
Iron Mountain Michigan will be happy to hear the news! From here to Hibbing, there's still plenty of low grade ore looking for a market. 🌄. A great way to put those Cornish miners back to work.🌞
Well, I hope that wherever mining might take place, that very strict environmental regulations prohibit the use of acid leaching or anything like that... (it should be a simple matter of removal of the ore body... and then a restoration of the environment . In general, we need to begin to restore the plants and habitat of all the various species, with whom we share this sacred Earth. I had an amazing vision once... in which the epiphany consisted of actually "seeing" that the energy of something most of us are aware of as "the force".... or God.... letting me understand that its energy IS in Everything, withing the physical plane. (which was created by that force). Therefore, it would behoove all of us to come to this belief... that everything is sacred, no exceptions....and then act in ways which support it.... by demonstrating so much more attention and care... to all of who/what we come into contact.
Hope you guys get a nice fat contract and lots of permanent jobs out of it. Sending BIG LOVE and good vibes to all of you out there, who struggle.with the state of things these days.
May the pasties rise again.
I'd be happy to go to work as a geologist in an iron ore mine in Michigan.
@@aafjeyakubu5124 Lol, and when the pasties rise, the Yoopers do too!🌲🌄🌲
@@richardmcdonald7565 My thinking aligns with yours! Generally iron mining is less hazardous than sulfide ore mining, oxides of iron and titanium in silicate matrices, though iron mining can expose elements like selenium which wind up flowing out of tailings ponds (wish they captured this valuable semiconductor element!). Some deposits, like the one in the northern half of our county are iron sulfide ores, basically iron pyrites, and the associated elements and acid generation that could leach out the hazardous ions are mainly in those types of deposits, but then probably so is the gold. Hopefully wise ethical and careful methods will be employed in any mining operation, but that seems to take a lot of government pressure and more ethical government officials, which hopefully we will see more of in the future.🌄🌎🌏🌎
If available at a low enough cost this would be a viable alternative to an emergency generator for during power outages.
Yes. We have a bank of VERY expensive Lithium batteries for a medical device.
This is one of the best options I’ve seen in quite awhile, along with Thorium reactors and hydro… this is a game changer…ty,,great stuff.
This is better than Liquid Metal Battery tech.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention!
What a great report, I love learning about these advances.
Every time this benighted huckster opens his mouth he spouts disingenuous nonsense in which the wide-eyed youtube flock here love. The best battery storage resolutions won't scratch the surface of the grid-scale energy storage conundrum. The periodic table and the physics simply DO NOT LEND THEMSELVES TO RESOLVING SUCH A GRID SCALE BATTERY STORAGE PROBLEM.
@@dipladonic yea but if only we believe strong enough
@@viermidebutura Believe as much as you want. it'll make no difference. The chemistry and the physics will never fit in with the utility-scale battery storage fallacy.
@@dipladonic except they do and are. Sorry, reality is dissolving your poison fossil fueled dreams.
And by the way, you already posted this generic response on this comment section.
Dave, you give me hope.
Thanks for information on a regular basis. Be safe
Very interesting I live in a very rural area and solar, wind, and a generator are my only power options. Something like this regardless of the size would be perfect for me. Looking forward to hearing more about it.
Looks great but the lack of any actual technical information is concerning. These types of batteries usually require a catalyst made of precious/harmful metals and there is no information on the website about it nor the electrolyte used
Do you have to use that horrid passive term “is concerning”. It’s such a social science ohrase. Can’t you say something like “it’s of concern”?
I'd like to see some comparisons between these and hydrogen as a grid balancing medium. Thanks Dave for yet another interesting video.
Love your channel! Keep it up!
always the best videos ... thank you!!
Sounds like power density is much lower than lithium-ion, hence the repeated mention of discharge over days? Did I miss a mention of a power density comparison ? Would still be a great addition to spread out solar and wind power over time
It might be interesting to see a direct comparison between Ambri liquid metal batteries (10k cycles with only 1% loss of capacity and very fast charge and discharge), iron air, solid state (half the weight no fire risk - Teslar & Toyota) and also don't forget the highly scale-able liquid air 'battery' (look up High View Co. UK). I can see one issue restricting the steel / air battery is the current heavy carbon footprint of iron smelting. Roll on large scale renewable H2!
i am 58 and from my age of 12 i read and watched millions of these videos...battery tech improved over the years but always SLOWLY...i never seen in history a breakthrough in battery tech!
It's incremental my friend, batteries now power cars, a massive improvement from 46 years ago
Great video mate. Very informative
I imagine that the challenges have involved keeping the iron anode together as it turns to rust , Rust is NOT known for its strength.. .
And I guess it expands too and could fall off into the medium.(?) I am immediately very sceptical but of course all those problems explain why it took so long.
@@jean-pierredevent970 I would imagine that the anode and cathode would be laying horizontally as the video said that the anode was in stacks consisting of pellets.
Either as pellets, or perhaps some porus sponge form suspended on a non degrading conductive support, but that's a good question!
And the reaction is also taking place under water, so the rust isn't going to develop and flake in exactly the way people are assuming it does, like in air. I'd be interested to hear more on that chemistry though
Depends how deep the layer of rust is. I'm sure they don't mean to turn the entire anode to something that resembles flaky pastry before the de-rusting part of the process is activated. It might just be a thin film.
It’s lovely to have something to hope for, in an otherwise bleak future.
Book a shrink bro, depression is bad for you.
plant more trees, that will excrete any potential pollution.
Thank you for sharing this information.
Very nice, keep up the good work there JHT. A bit of good news on this dismal smoky day.
This is a fundamental change in the game.
The energy density is largely due to the fact that much of the anode reactant mass is in the atmosphere floating around the battery instead of having to be inside of the battery.
This, and the metal flow battery, IMO shows much promise for mass stationary auxiliary electrical storage.
The unanswered questions here is what is the durability of the battery, i.e. how many cycles can it take before needing new iron electrodes.
Doesn’t much matter - even if it’s only 50% at the end of a year of use which would be completely terrible for a laptop battery a warehouse battery doesn’t care all that much since each cell only has a few dollars worth of material in it. And it’s fairly easy to just throw some more iron in it, similar to how the old (50 years ago) lead acid batteries didn’t have a lot of charge cycles in them either but you could just put more acid in every so often.
I've no idea if this paper ("A Review of the Iron-Air Secondary Battery for Energy Storage") refers to the same technology that Form Energy has, but it has a table which has Fe-air battery with 50% energy efficiency, with 2000 cycles (to failure!!), cell voltage 1.28V, 50-75 Wh/kg.
The 768Wh/kg is theoretical energy density.
These specifications don't impress at all. The C rate is supposedly really bad.
@@olyalphy Yes. Not impressive at all for a car battery. But the idea is to have them in something more like a datacenter. Google used the shittiest hard drives and consumer grade RAM for many years in its datacenters because you just have workers drop in replacement parts as they fail. The real question is how cheap is it to repair the battery every 2000 cycles or so. A laptop or cell phone battery is only supposed to have a 3000 charge cycle life, give or take. So the iron battery isn't that far off -- and the lithium battery is basically trash after its done. The iron battery? If it's just the iron that is destroyed then it's super cheap to just refresh the battery. We did a similar thing with the acid component for decades with lead-acid car batteries. I haven't seen a car battery that wanted an acid refresh in a while but it used to be very common.
@@olyalphy The C rate is horrible, this is why they tout it as a 6 day battery.
What is the self discharge rate? What is the round trip efficiency? These are curiously omitted by the manufacturer, so they must be a problem?
"so they must be a problem"?
You remind me of my ex-mother-in-law.
She was always search for a way to crap on EVERYTHING.
@@stevechance150 but why take skepticism personally? These are engineering issues, no room for your moodiness.
Self-discharge is probably not an issue if you're smoothing out a daily duck curve,
and any round trip efficiency over 75% beats pumped hydro.
@@stevechance150 "so they must be a problem"?
You remind me of my ex-mother-in-law.
She was always search for a way to crap on EVERYTHING.
When I looked at the website they were very short on specifics. I assume they don't have a working prototype.
Thanks for a brilliant video. I think this could be a game changer for the future grid. Sounds almost too amazing to be true. Still hard to see how far away they are from getting commercial.
Thank you for this wonderful explaination.
Sounds great as I’ve been waiting for the long promised Prof. Sadoway, from MIT’s liquid metal battery.
Maybe this could also be a method of... steel production - electrochemical reduction of iron ore to iron metal using the excess energy from solar panels?
I heard, that for example solar power plants in Nevada must be turned off (partially) in summer, because they produce much more than is needed. So, maybe use this energy for desalination of seawater or producing something that anyways needs electric energy (like aluminum or copper). Or CO2-free steel. During steel production in blast furnace much CO2 is released, so with use of green energy we can have this process environmentally friendly.
Pokrec,
Some solar panels may be off because they produce their power at the wrong time of the day for the grid's demand. Using such sporadic power is not practical for what needs to be a continuous process, it is not commercially viable.
Steel is not made in a blast furnace, iron is and it needs the carbon from the coke used as fuel to make it into iron. It is not just a step in steel production but a valuable metal in it's own right.
@@iareid8255 I just thought, that it would be possible to reduce the Fe2O3 or Fe3O4 to iron electrochemically, like reducing the aluminum from aluminum oxide. But you are right, from blast furnace we get rather not chemically pure iron, but something called pig iron (iron + several % of carbon, silicon and other impurities), that is to be refined to steel of desired type in an open hearth furnace.
But you are right, this would be impractical. Still it would be worth to think, if there is a process, that would be economically viable to use it using the intermittent solar energy to produce something useful. I know, that the machine to produce this something useful would be wasted during the night or cloudy days and the energy, that powers it, is cheaper than the cost of the machine, so it is rather cheaper to pay for the energy for the machine than have it stopped for the night...
@@iareid8255 But the idea of using the excess energy to run desalinisation plants is excellent.
It doesn't matter what time of day something like that can run, or for how many hours, every extra gallon of clean, clear water is a bonus for the farmers.
Better to put that excess energy to work rather than waste it. Reminds me of the days when they used to burn off gases when fractioning crude oil, and now those gases are being put to use.
Pokrec,
to run any commercial production business it must run at times to suit teh process, most plants that produce materials are twenty four hour, three sixty five days a week businesses. They are unsuited and will not be economical with sporadic power supplies, even if it is free.
Mr Horne,
the idea that we face extinction is not valid. Hyperbole is the current output from the media, do not believe it!
Love to hear more! We need an emergency all battery generator cable of sustaining us in the event of a hurricane.
These would be ideal for microgrid applications. Another excellent video!
I would like to see a comparison of this iron/air grid storage technology with the Vanadium redox flow battery grid storage technology.
The theoretical energy density of Li-ion chemistry is also in that neighbourhood, around 550Wh/kg. Still if such a battery stil only has an energy density comparable to Li-ion and even with shorter cycle life, it might still be the better option for EVs if it is cheap. Getting your iron-air cells replaced every year for $600 is still better than a new Li-ion pack that costs $10.000 but lasts only 8-10 times as long.
From my knowledge, Fe-Air batteries are not well suited for fast charging applications, since the oxidation process takes time, that's why Li-Ion would still be better for EVs.
If the weight isn't prohibitive and an easily switched out car battery could be made from this that was cheap - then you just have 2 or 3 of them at home and switch the drained one out for one that is charged. This concept (not using this battery) was proposed before as a way to capture excess energy generated from windfarms during low need hours (at night) so that it doesn't get wasted. Building such cars on a large scale (which are powered by easily switched out battery packs) would then enable "gas" stations to provide charged batteries in exchange for the drained battery on long trips. Essentially you wouldn't own the battery or their cheap cost would make it similar to how people exchange empty propane tanks for full ones. There would thus be no need to wait around for recharging either at home or on long trips. But if the pack would be too heavy it would kill that application. Cheers!
Yey for maths
Sounds Great. Thank you very much.
yet very interesting thank you for introducing this battery I wished there were more technical information
Iron oxide has such a large volume expansion I'd be interested in how many cycles they can get.
Probably dam few............Paul
From their patents, it appears that they use what amounts to a sponge or foam structure for the iron electrode, which leaves plenty of room for the oxide - probably Fe(O)OH - to form. I think they'd have to be careful to oxidize only a portion of the iron, so that the electrode itself doesn't collapse (and stop conducting), and if that's the case, they can only store a fraction of the theoretical charge capacity per kg of iron. Hence the vast number of cells in a commercial installation. They're not large, but they are going to be heavy things. Shipping-container-sized versions would be more economical but would have to be constructed on-site.
How does the iron re-deposit itself onto the electrode?
None because this battery is a fairy tale.
@@crackedemerald4930 It doesn't. The battery doesn't exist.
Surely “distributed” and shared power grids also need to be replaced - at least in part - by decentralised power production.
Households with solar panels on the roof (& even some commercial properties) all using their own power + sending back excess power to the broader grid just make sense!?
Imagine all houses had some panels on the roof and a small wind turbine or two.
Then imagine the same on smaller commercial properties and roofs of shopping centres…. That must make a huge impact on dense cities.
THEN you add this kind of exciting iron-air batteries and suddenly the worlds power grids can really change.
This is very cool.
Not only can I see grid sized storage but also would possibly be a lower cost alternative for off grid applications.
Washing machine sized batteries would mean some preplanning for intial install and possible replacement.
Definately going to need a forklift.
The best idea I have ever seen in the field.
I noticed a complete lack of lifecycle figures. Something that works by rusting worries me how fast it might degrade and so how many cycles you would get out of it.
It de-rusts every time it charges. A battery like that would erode more from the air ports than the electrolite cell parts. It could last over 100 years with little maintanence if kept from the elements.
This is where fancy electrolytes come into play. However, if it's just something like cast iron and saltwater gel, it's dirt simple to rebuild or repair cells. Life cycle extensions are typically easy to identify with long term testing or prototype use.
@@fieldlab4 Fingers crossed the initial costs + maintenance costs do work out well, giving us a low financial cost and low environmental impact cost alternative battery.
This paper give it at a few thousand cycles for the best tech : "A Review of the Iron-Air Secondary Battery for Energy
Storage" (doi:10.1002/cplu.201402238)
This paper show a step increase in the degradation rate around one thousand cycles : "Improved battery capacity and cycle life in iron-air batteries with
ionic liquid" (doi:10.1016/j.rser.2021.110729)
Will this battery tech ever be made available to individual consumers? Sounds like it would be a utility exclusive battery. Something like this built underneath a house with maintainence access would allow for a house to be off grid easily. A subterranean battery facility in each neighborhood tied into solar panels on roofs and shade structures could make neighborhoods self sustaining.
This (to me) should be the goal. I would think it would be less vulnerable to cyber attacks.
It sounds like if this technology gets validated and can be built for $20 a kWh, you could have a 100kWh battery at a price as little as $4k or $5k including production profits and distribution. This would mean you can put an oversized solar array on your house and have 3 to 4 days or more worth of energy stored in case of rainy or cloudy days.
But we can't underestimate the resistance something like that would face from entrenched utility interests with massive amounts of money and lobbying power. In the USA, that industry generates around $400 Billion dollars a year in a mostly monopoly protected sector. They are not going to abandon that money printing machine without a fight.
Like all other tech. The deep pockets get it first, but it filters down relatively quickly
@@Jhale716 Possibly. The good news is that there is a lot of money behind this venture, including Bezos, Gates, Mittel and others. So, if it is viable, it will probably enter the market eventually.
But, even the stated focus of the venture is "before the meter storage" which is utility storage. In reality, micro grids would be more efficient and more cost effective, along with more reliable since you can eliminate large part of the power transmission infrastructure.
However, as noted, it is not in any company's interest to sell you a one time solution. They would much rather produce and store the energy, and then sell it to you on a continuous basis. So, while I hate to be cynical about this, the predatory behavior of many utilities in the USA has made me well aware that their primary focus is not looking after my interest.
I still like the idea of occupying an entire exterior wall(preferably against a garage or driveway) with energy storage as well your other HVAC and communication equipment. Serviceability can be done with access ports that double as storage space. For larger homes these things need to be more centralized, but can still be accomplished with a utility closet. I think local storage (and more importantly production) of energy is the only viable future this type of technology has. A global effort is a recipe for disaster.
Thank You Dave for all you do :-)
Thank you. You give me hope everyday. Be well.
Thank you. Sounds promising. I wonder how they keep the fragile rust attached to the anode without crumbling, and how many cycles it can work without damaging itself. without
The iron anode could be positioned horizontally at the bottom of the tank , the rust would thereby be distributed evenly on its surface .
If my cars anything to go by. You can quite stably build up very thick layers of rust with out it falling apart.
The anode is made of iron pellets, so it's possible that they crumble slowly.
Not moving the system around should help, worst case: melt it down and reshape it. My guess is the oxygen side is the expensive bit.
I'm guessing they don't because this battery is a fairy tale.
What about degradation? I imagine over time, some rust molecules will separate from the plate and fall to the bottom of the tank and so disconnect from the circuit.
So then we simply look at the figures for cycle repetitions .
So dig up some more iron ore, raid the scrap yards, and make more. It's a pretty abundant resource.
I appreciate the availability of the raw materials. I'm just wondering about the durability of the cells. Regardless of the efficiency of production, if the lifecycle is too short then the inefficiencies of sustainment will overcome the initial savings.
exactly year to year degradation is a huge factor cycles are pretty much meaning less, if your only doing 1 cycle per day
Maybe flip it over so the plate is on the bottom?
Outstanding !
Thanks !
very optimistic video I love it
That seems closer to how biological cells produce energy in that driver is oxygen.
The main question I have is how many cycles the batteries can support without losing a significant amount of capacity.
excellent report - thanks so much
Seems like very promising technology for stationary power, especially for home owners wanting emergency power backup options, given that the current Lead Acid and Lithium have many serious drawbacks for home use (electrolyte boil-over, lithium overheating/fires, etc).
I read about this a few days ago in Atlas news and I know you read them and will make the video for it 🙂
I don't like reading, but I do like topics like these. He's a hero.
Glad to oblige :-)
This is interesting... I look forward to their progress.
excellent presentation very expansive
It makes sense to have different technologies for different applications. I like this one for home use, if you had various methods of converting solar and wind, and storing them in something that is seemingly as safe and cheap as this concept, I think such economics and safety considerations would be well received. Thanks for your insights. I like that you don't get over excited about something, but, rather offer the positives and potential limitations.
What is the life expectancy of the iron "rust" batteries? How many full charged and discharges before they reduce the amount of total charge they can hold, compared to lithium batteries?
This is just theorizing based on the chemistry, but since the mechanism of charge transfer does not require incalation like the video mentioned I'd expect it to be more reversible than Li Ion batteries which lose charge if the crystal structure of the electrodes is damaged. Just spitballing though.
It would be very low which means these batteries would need to be replaced very often rust is something that is well known throughout the world car bodies Bridges infrastructure all rust away the rest doesn't stay attached just as strong as the original metal was flakes off material will be lost with every cycle you also can't rest 100% of your base material and still transmit electricity through it
If you look up Nickle Iron batteries, or Edison batteries, they claim lifetimes approaching a century.
Nickle supplies the oxygen in this case. These batteries are dead simple using only NI FE and KOH. Almost anyone could build one of these.
@@TH-camviolatesmy1stamendment Sure Josh, they spent two-hundred million dollars designing a battery that deteriorates as fast as toilet paper in the bowl. And Bill Gates invested in it. And they have an M.I.T. Materials Science Professor on the team. Josh, your logic is FLAWLESS.
@@stevechance150 Wouldn't be the first time that such a thing has happend. Wouldn't even be the second or third time.
I'd like to see this become a viable alternative to lithium-based power walls. I dream of building my almost-off-the-grid eco-habitat in the next few years and this would be so good and much less pollutant.
I have that same dream, but am lucky enough to have had experience in the 70's, with hot water solar systems... so I am actually rehabbing six 3 ft. X 6 ft. hot air collectors, to be hot water collectors... Am currently strengthening the roof, so we have a more substantial ability to secure the collector to the roof. I just recently poured an insulated cement floor slab, with hot water tubes, throughout the entire slab, and with 2 insulated hot water storage tanks (550 gallons), nearby. This should provide adequate temperatures, all Winter, and will allow me to grow starts early for my acre food and medicinal herb garden. So... it'll be cutting out most of my use of carbon-based fuel, except for my truck... and cooking fuel. Soon, a solar oven, will replace that, and a batch solar hot water heater, will take care of the rest.. Soon, photovoltaics for the other half of the roof. :-)
@@richardmcdonald7565 sounds pretty damn cool man
Exciting development!
Nice application for power grid .
Watching this with while sipping a nice big mug of skepticism.
Your username says it all.
@@gamingtonight1526 Reality is much more eloquent and much more shittier. Haven't you noticed?
@@gamingtonight1526 there's is no shame in mistrusting such news
As you should. If only that attitude was the norm... boy, we'd be living in a different world.
Thank you! This is exactly the kind of tech long needed to advance grid storage. Previously, a reverse zinc refinery has been proposed using molten zinc ore. Iron-air runs at ambient temperatures and is even better.
Not to mention, it's potentially very fire resistant. There was a recent partial fire at a Tesla storage facility being built in Australia.
Never heard about it.I'm an ozzy
@@davyboy282able Apparently it was being built.
amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three
Thankyou. Very interesting as ever.
Appreciate your videos very much….