Try saying "Digitigrade" 5 times fast! Check out Part 2 and 3 of this video where I answer some questions about this Timeline theory that weren't mentioned in this video! Part 2: th-cam.com/video/fgn-c-n43lg/w-d-xo.html Part 3: th-cam.com/video/kRyMZERMXQ0/w-d-xo.html
Regarding the time discrepancy-- in several East Asian languages, 10,000 is used to mean any significantly large number. When referring to a length of time, it's usually more accurate to translate it as "a long time ago" (or "forever ago" in some instances) instead of exactly "10,000 years ago."
I originally learned this info you brought in Avatar: The Legend of Aang. There is an owl spirit that lives in a library. I don’t remember his name, but his title was “the one that knows 10.000 things” and that is meant to mean that he knows a lot, not that he knows EXACTLY 10.000 things. It’s always nice to spread knowledge.
I gotta say, I love how the fans are like, "Here is my 57-point power point explaining Zora evolution" when you just know the devs were like, "Throw Ruto's Crown in there because it'll be a cute Easter egg and nothing more."
Real lol. I’m a pretty new Zelda fan, but I’ve become kinda obsessed because of this stuff. The only other fandom that I can think of that’s this obsessed with making canon fit together is Star Wars, and even they’re not this insane.
Fans: There must be an extremely complicated and impossibly bulletproof plan and detailed timeline in the Devs heads. GJRRM on GoT: I have a dude that remembers the lore for me because I forget. Akira Toriyama on why some characters don't show up anymore in Dragonball: *who?* what are u talking about? 👀 Oh I forgot they exist The Devs are just people they probably either forgot or didn't realise it was a possible issue 😂
@@MxDiagnosis the devs: yea, these 3 games and all future games are standalone unless stated otherwise. It wasn't that they forgot in the case of Zelda, it's that they legit don't WANT to be tied down by having to have a "canon timeline" anymore. The 3 games being Age of Calamity, BoTW and ToTK, which are connected to eachother, but not connected to any of the other games, as evidenced by the discrepancies with the sealing war, founding of Hyrule, etc.
@@scottishcheese13 Check out Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere (like Mistborn or the Way of Kings) if you like different fantasy stories that have lots of connections
@scottishcheese13 also a star wars fan, they are 100% this insane as well haha. It's sad but kind of understandable why the developers dont really cater to people who love lore, i'm sure it's hard for them to keep up with the lore internally. Maybe that's why totk doesnt really connect to the previous games, they just didnt wanna accidentally retcon things more than they did
Something to add to your Ruto and the silver theory is that in BOTW 50% of Zora weapons are made of silver: Silver Bow, Silver Longsword, Silver Shield and Silverscale Trident.
@@hermi1-kenobi455some non specified, silver like metal. It is described as "special" and "very durable and rust-proof". It's probably some ancient stainless steel/silver alloy or something.
@@asurveillancecamera3392 judging by what you say we could probably say it’s a form of silver while being mixed with a bit of platinum for the durability. Though you have to take in the count platinum being probably a valuable resource so they probably only would use something like that with the Royal blood line since platinum is a rare resource and all.
@@hermi1-kenobi455 one of the tablets in BotW describes the land of Zora's Domain being "rich in ore", and the ancient Zora creating a "unique form of stonemasonry" for the construction of Zora's Domain. The Zora weapons might be made out of the same material as the Domain itself, with the same form of stonemasonry, which results in the waterproof, rust proof, water-damage-boosting properties of their weapons (and it might not *actually be* silver, the ore might just be silver in color. Sterling silver is *more resistant* to tarnishing from getting wet, but it still has to be kept dry and out of excess moisture so it won't tarnish so fast)
If there really was some massive incident that caused Hyrule to be destroyed and only refounded after the godlike Zonai descended from the sky, I am shocked the Zora had solid enough historical records to know who Ruto was.
@@M33f3r Considering Dorephan was king 100 years before BotW (likely a good while before then as well considering his daughter Mipha is a Zora of some type of maturity by that time), plus Sidon "only" being as big as he is compared to his father after a full 100 years and change, the Zora likely have lifespans in the vein of fantasy elves, lasting centuries as a baseline. The sage shown in TotK is likely only about 5-12 generations removed from present day.
@@i_garfed_on_the_carpet 10,000 years before Age of Calamity was the Ancient Calamity. 20-30,000 years before that was the Tears of the Kingdom past cutscenes An UNFATHOMABLE AMOUNT OF TIME before that was Ocarina of Time. Ocarina of Time is so ancient there is no proof it even happened. The Ancient Cistern is eldritch levels of old as a structure. The Temple of Time is slightly less eldritch, with Rauru (the light sage) likely having built it during the time of Hylia.
I like the idea that the Zora change to fit the appearance of the sea life around them. That, if nothing else, could be used to partially explain why the classic River Zoras look so drastically different... although I don't think it explains why they can breathe fire lol
You know, on a fundamental level I never really understood why people were so torn about the Zora and the Rito existing in one time... There's always been a very simple rationale for it that's hard to argue against, that the Zora-turned-Rito and the Zora are simply different lines of evolution. I do like your more in depth rationale for it.
I remember a fake documentary that was on a television channel once, that tried to do a "If dragons were real, how would they work scientifically?" One part basically said that the serpent-like body shape of eastern dragons was the result of dragons there retreating to the water for safety (and evolving to survive there), and later came back to the land relatively recently. European dragons never retreated to the ocean, and thus the different appearance compared to eastern dragons. So BotW Rito could be Zora that stayed bird people (and evolved to be more bird-like), while BotW Zora are Zora that evolved into the beak-nosed Rito, only to evolve back into Zora after the flood was over.
It's the classic, if dogs come from wolves, why are there still wolves? style of disingenuous argument for the sake of argument. It's not that complicated, given you actually want to understand how species diversify.
@@samuelhagberg3694personally the only one i can think of is link between worlds and i think in that one the zora queen basically said "yeah, i tell my subjects to behave but none of them listen."
@@bennusmagnus5277that actually makes a lot of sense since they don’t need to breathe. They might just be chilling at the base of death mountain, underwater, Eaton rocks.
same @@bennusmagnus5277 much confusion for a good minute, i was like uh could he mean a literal hole in the ground? but yes, very valid point @kisofthekat7040
Right the Zora who stayed who stayed became the Rito or were wiped out, the ones who left created a new domain under Ruta but then later came back when the waters receded, which explains the silver, while the “old” domain” (really the newer roots), adopted gold.
This is honestly closer to how evolution works in real life. It's not about one species turning into another, it's about common ancestry. Modern Rito and modern Zora share a common ancestor in the OoT style Zora from before the great flood (or some other event depending on timeline shenanigans) separated at least two populations of Zora, and each group adapted to a different environment. Their adaptations may have been more magical and less "natural selection", which could explain away any time periods that may have been too short for that level of change.
In real life we have RECORDS of things like this. And usually they don't completely fail to mention they exist when they're sentient beings with language
@Applemangh yeah its not farfetched since magic exists in the zelda games. I mean if Purah can change her age with magic, I don't see why they couldn't use magic to evolve because clearly it is capable of changing bodies
I think its more so toned down their aquatic traits while making them more avian baseline. It could be that the BotW Zora are merely how the fish-people look when without a patron, compare them to the child timeline zora with larger fins and greater reliance on water or the downfall zora who became more similar to monsters. I think the Oracle games even have link meet some zora that still resemble the ones from OoT and have a patron.
I thought there was an implication that the Rito Sage from Windwaker was also a descendant of Ruto, so she had children that were divided between these two groups.
That connection between them was merely a suggestion based off of their naming similarities, but wasn't actually a canonical thing. I'm pretty sure one of the books makes this suggestion, while at the same time, it also suggests that Valoo, the Spirit of the Sky is the descendant of Volvagia, the Spirit of the Mountain. Volvagia has always been an evil dragon Spirit. Its hard to believe something that naturally evil would have such a well meaning descendant like Valoo. I just think they wrote a lot of stuff in those books that visually looked like it made sense to them when seeing the material in front of them to place into the book, but unless you really played these games, you wouldn't know any better.
@@GossipGeist It's not so much the names being similar, its that Sages tend to be related and when the Rito Sage in Windwaker "becomes a Sage" and plays her music or whatever her "ancestor" a zora sage appears... but I guess i remembered things incorrectly as this is a different zora than Ruto, and was a "Earth Sage" not the "Water Sage" that Ruto was... so i guess i messed that point up.
@@mazhiwezakizo3513 Well, nothing stop that Ruto may have had more than one kid, leaving one of those to stay with their people (maybe the eldest) and leaving with the youngest that may still need her or something, you know.
@@mazhiwezakizo3513Well even the Earth Sage Laruto could have descended from Ruto, it would make a lot of sense and would also make Medli her blood descendant since she's related to Laruto.
@@GossipGeistyeah the books just made stuff up to look nice, and the games are disconnected and not a cohesive lore, no matter how much we retroactively apply lore. And nintendo definitely lied the first time they said they had a real timeline. Fans made the timeline, Nintendo just took the concept.
I thought it was similar to this. The BoTW Rito were just an offshoot of the Zora with Raruu's Hyrule being so far into the future that the pervious games were just stories
With that in mind it makes so much sense that you can find all the previous hero’s gear kept safe in chests only in Zonai ancients buildings, because it's relics of their tales and history. Meaning that Zonai in previous games were maybe indeed gods living above, watching Hyrule, before deciding to descend among hyrulians for not know reasons yet ( Kind of loopholes in what I said but I like the idea )
@@namazuna4739 I can see that as well. Honestly, I saw it as the Zonai coming down after a timeline convergence left the people in a, well, to be generous, a dark age
@@soloknight7197 I agree. During this convergence, maybe even the kingdom of Hyrule in itself may have been lost, explaining why King Rauru is presented as the creator of the kingdom of Hyrule as if it didn’t exist before. Zonai may have suffer from the convergence too, explaining their decline, leading the few descending to the earth and try to recreate a new Hyrule as their knew before ( Even if I do have another theory that Zonai may have doomed themselves and their civilisation relying to much on zonaite and begin to decline when zonaite became too rare due to their overuse)
On the subject of Dorephan's monument stating that the Domain was founded 10,000 years ago there might be a possible explanation that, oddly enough, really has nothing to do with anything in the games themselves and more has to do with the translation between Japanese and English. What I mean is that the number 10,000 can hold a unique meaning in certain aspects of Asian cultures because it has ties to...I forget if it's Buddhism or Shintoism, but it's one of the two. Basically, it's common in stories told from Asiatic religions to use the number ten thousand as a synonym for "too large to be quantified." So someone saying "I have fought in ten thousand battles" doesn't mean they've actually fought 10,000 battles but rather means "I have fought in more battles than it is possible to count." Or someone saying "I am he who knows ten thousand things" doesn't mean they only know 10,000 facts and instead means "I am someone who has more knowledge than it is possible to describe." That said, it's possible that since the games are made by Japanese developers that their use of the number 10,000 when describing the Zora's Domain's history isn't literally saying it was founded precisely 10,000 years ago but was rather intended in that specific cultural context where it was really meant to convey that it was founded farther back in time than anyone can actually describe. Then the English translators didn't catch on to that possible other meaning and kept the original number of 10,000 when a more accurate translation would have been to translate it as something more vague like "since before recorded history" or just "ancient."
@@aliciacordero8399 In terms of the actual meaning, the English equivalent would be closer to when we use a made-up measurement like a "bajillion" or "zillion." We're making it sound like it could be an actual number by using something that sounds like actual large counts like billion or trillion, but the actual meaning is that the made-up number is just a stand-in for the concept of "too big to give an actual number to." The main difference is just that they use an actual number (10,000) rather than a made-up one.
There isn’t a way of saying the number in plural in Japanese, so they have to say the specific huge number (ie there’s no word for “hundreds” or “thousands”). Eight hundred is another of of those figurative numbers that just means “a lot, but not more than a thousand”. Whereas in English and similar languages it could have been translated as “thousands of years ago”
But japanese has a word for 10 thousand (ichi man) 20 (ni man) 100 thousand (jyu man) a million (hyakku man) and even 'several ten thousands' (suu man) (yes they use 10 thousand as unit, just like we do with 1000) I'm not sure if this theory applies here
Zora are an interesting race in general since theres like at least 4 distinct types before the Rito or the possibility they come from those things in SS. They just seem really genetically changable.
@@umi2751 yeah the parella, they live in the same area, are sentient aquatic race, and were planned to look more like Zora originally. They might nor be zora ancestors but they were clearly meant to be connected.
I don't think enough theories take into consideration how important it is that OoT is canon to the timeline in Wild/Kingdom. Unless totk's past is meant to be an all-in-one retcon of OoT where the ancient Zora sage IS Ruto (doubtful imo) then we are definitely seeing a sequel game. I only bring it up as I've seen a few too many hard reboot theories or SS split theories.
@@zomfraggerwhich sucks and I reject wholeheartedly. The original imprisoning war story and timeline is so much more interesting than TotK’s mess of a story.
The past part of TOTK doesn’t explicitly state it takes place at the same time as OoT. So it’s better assumed that the past of TOTK still takes place thousands of years after the other Zelda games. Another thing to note, Nintendo doesn’t seem to actually care about the timeline and only make it seem like they do for the fans.
I went into this video expecting to not agree with the conclusion, but when you made the point about the other Zora using gold, I was suprised at how quickly I was convinced this theory holds water. Excellent catch. I like this explanation so much I hope it gets printed in a new history of hyrule and Nintendo pays you royalties for it.
What an excellent theory! The Zora lineage has always been a topic of great interest to me. As much as I've studied the monuments though, I overlooked how huge the detail about their migration is, and Yona's gold jewelry is a big find as well. Before it was clear to me that BotW was in the adult timeline, I'd thought a lot about different factions of Zora creating the Rito and the River Zora we'd see in other timelines, but I eventually resigned to these new games being a reboot. I'm glad to see that in a weird way I wasn't too far off. I'll definitely be looking into this line of thought more going forward.
They evolved via magic is an easier cop out and not unusual in rpg games. We think of evolution as taking centuries via darwinism. But we completely forget that magic doesn't require explanation.
Another thing to note about the design of the Zora and Rito in BotW and TotK is that they have the same irises and pupils. It’s likely just a coincidence but regardless, I like to imagine the fact both races share that kind of eye implies their relation to each other
I think it’s clear that Ruto could have been having children in the child timeline. I don’t see why she couldn’t have been the grandmother of Rutela and great grandmother of Ralis. The zora diaspora happening as you recounted it could still have happened the same way over the millennia though. I usually think of the Ocarina sages as having died and turned into spirits, but even if they didn’t, it’s hard to think of the sage of water abandoning Hyrule in its broken state with the great sea. Perhaps she was really old by that point though and the only sage left alive. Excellent video!
Well the hero didn't show up, and then as a last resort the gods solved the problem by flooding Hyrule. There wasn't much Ruto could have done at that point except make sure her people survive. The other sages likely did the same for their own people
Ruto may have been the sage of water that Ganondorf murdered. TP is known for having the flashbacks be vague and using placeholder characters, like with the dark interlopers or whatever being shown as evil Links.
I mean, why wouldn't they have all come back? The fact that Rauru isn't with them on Death Mountain sort of gives the feeling that they aren't just visiting in Spirit form
I got so confused there for a hot second until I remembered Rauru was also the name of the OG light sage in OoT, not just the furry king lmao @@heyoyo10gaming4
Honestly, your sources are insanely credible. I had no idea about the Zora coffee in TWW! That said, I don't think evolutions need the great flood to happen. I think that the Kokiri evolve into the Koroks whenever there is a need to move the lost woods. It just so happens that the flood was one of those triggers. I think the Zora/Rito could be a similar case, and doesn't necessarily need the flood to evolve. Furthermore, the Zora wouldn't need the flood to separate into three different sects as DT also has the Zora divided.
The Koroks have always looked like Koroks. They were only human appearing for the sake of the Hero of Time. Once he was gone they returned to their little cute tree forms lol
@@kileysevens9116 Koroks never appeared in the Downfall timeline, but people that resemble Kokiri, like the sage of forest from LBW or Farore the oracle of secrets, or the maiden from Link to the Past that may or may not be a descendant of Saria, or the logging twins who have a similar name to Kokiri in the Japanese version. The Deku tree seems to exist in the downfall timeline, assuming Echoes of Wisdom is in the Downfall timeline.
This is a theory I had while playing Tears of the Kingdom a while ago, but I didn't really do research to find hard clues, and I definitely wasn't gonna remember the collectables from Phantom Hourglass. Being reminded that those two items exist and having the silver consistency pointed out definitely makes me think we're right on the money. As for the Zora and Rito existing in the far past that Tears is claiming to show, I've seen a couple possible theories that're going in completely different directions, so my conclusion is that the placement of those memories isn't as clear cut as the game tries to lead us to believe. I just hope they're not actually the huge OoT retcon and franchise reboot they appear to be.
This video is legit. I like this theory because it brings up the fact that there's other lands besides Hyrule. And also that there are things going on in other places that we may or may not know about, like the second Zora's Domain. There is a Zora Village in Labrynna (Oracle of Ages), so TotK isn't the first game to tell us there are other groups of Zora outside Hyrule (depending on peoples' thoughts about whether Termina is real or not). Labrynna also has a Goron population, and Holodrum (Oracle of Seasons) features Gorons and Deku Scrubs. Just found this out: apparently in a linked game of Oracle of Seasons you can find a Zora from Labrynna who was sent by the Zora King there to find a new domain (but he says Holodrum has nowhere good to settle for Zoras). EDIT: also, Fujibayashi has directed a few Zelda titles, including the Oracle games and TotK. Just something to think about
I'm so incredibly whelmed by this video, and happy about it too. Made this connection a while ago but until now had yet to see a video on it. It was always "how can zora and rito coexist it doesnt make sense! must be time shenanigans!". Like it literally mentions they evolved. Doesn't mean every single zora did, and we know there are multiple zora populations. It's like wondering how gorilla exist if we humans do. It's understandable not to realize how silly that is, but it does make me chuckle, or irk me from time to time.
God I loved this video, it reminded me of the old videos/posts about the timeline before it was actually established. Love Zelda deep dives, and regardless if Nintendo intends for all these connections to actually be a thing, still so neat for players and fans to find stuff like this
evolution nerd here who's headed to university later this month to study! the concept you've come up with is actually a real thing called reproductive isolation! in this case, it's habitat isolation, where a new species arises due to isolation from other members of its species. this is why you find many endemic (native to only a small area) species on islands; their ancestors could no longer breed with the mainland population and thus developed their own unique set of traits. it's why marine iguanas look so unique compared to mainland iguanas :)
That’s why the separation theory initially makes sense… though when I thought about it more I realized that Zora would probably die if they came into contact with salt water… so my current theory is that all the Zora evolved into the Rito in Windwaker, and then later the timelines merged and the Sora from the Child Timeline populated the Lanayru region
another note that i think helps this is the zonai coming and helping establish hyrule - the small populace of hyrule at that point probably needed help and the zonai were that help
This is the first Zelda theory in awhile that’s really gotten me thinking, so good job! If this idea is true though, I wonder if it could help to explain a converged timeline. With the time mechanics the series has shown that’s impossible to happen, however BOTW and TOTK strongly suggest that reality. Mostly because it seems they wanted to soft reboot the series, but it’s a lot to consider.
Dorephan's story still holds up, based on the script on the stone tablet we repair in the The Broken Slate quest (part of the Sidon of the Zora main quest), and the cutscene that plays after we complete the Water Temple, where Zelda visits the Sage of Water AT the Water Temple/Wellspring Island. Dorephan's tale says that, 10,000 years ago, the Zora settled in what is now Zora's Domain, and that the Zora king of that era built East Reservoir Lake in partnership with the current king of Hyrule. In The Broken Slate, the slate mentions "the watery bridge's resting place" that "connects the Zora to the people of the skies"; the "watery bridge" is the waterfall that comes down into East Reservoir Lake when we shoot the King's Scale through the stones in the shape of a water droplet, which leads right up to Wellspring Island/the Water Temple, where Zelda spoke to the Zora Sage of Water 10,000 years ago, who then promised that their descendant (Sidon) would assist the future hero in defeating the Demon King So: the ancient Zora settled in what is now Zora's Domain due to the quality of the water (likely due to the existence of the Ancient Zora Waterworks, which were presumably a filtration system, and are Zonai in origin based on the fact that their architecture matches the architecture of the Water Temple). The Zora of 10,000 years ago built East Reservoir Lake to prevent the catastrophic floods that happened every ten years in collaboration with the current Hyrulean king (probably Rauru), and the waterfall from Wellspring Island connected the Zora to the "people of the skies" (the Zonai). At some point after the Imprisoning War, the waterfall from Wellspring Island stopped falling, and the sky islands (including Wellspring Island and the Water Temple) were hidden from view. Nearly all knowledge of the Zonai and their technology was lost, and the Ancient Zora Waterworks fell into disrepair, resulting in modern Zoras' ability to purify water (they were forced to learn this technique when the Ancient Zora Waterworks were no longer being maintained and all knowledge of them had vanished from living memory)
"The games are more than likely just reboots of the series after the timelines have converged" That was already confirmed by Nintendo. The point of BOTW was to converge the timeline and reboot the line at the same time. Which is why so many things from all 3 timelines appears in the BOTW/TOTK games, like Lynels for example, who only appeared in the Fallen hero line. But I'm happy to find a theory channel that actually clarified the zora's disappearance and reappearance. I was always just under the impression that some Zora eggs were left in the old domain in some sort of sanctuary and resurfaced after the flood diminished.
I had the beginnings of this theory during my first TOTK playthrough! When Sidon mentions that his fiancé (forgot her name) is from another place, I was like “what?”. Then as the old sages were shown, I knew that the “first Hyrule” couldn’t have been the one from just after Skyward Sword. I mention in one of my streams that the Zora from elsewhere must have been Zora from before the flood that didn’t evolve into Rito and then came back
Another detail to add is that in wind waker, they still have a royalty, where as in botw and onward its a chieftian leadership. They probably still had royalty from Zora culture until it was phased out
Also, something more simple- Zora (not River Zora) are seen living off the coast of Labrynna. The Zora in BotW/TotK could have possibly migrated over. Also, Twilight princess shows stone carvings of Zora and Rito living at the same time, so maybe there are different types of Rito depending on the timeline (similar to Zora)
@@MrMindCloud If you go to Zeltik, look for this video Zelda: Twilight Princess' Strangest Mystery… Solved? and then you will have all information on the mural you will need.
@@Leeloo-Foxx A quote from the graphic designer responsible for the mural "A lot of the original textures were often photos that had been manipulated into textures, the one you shared there was actually a picture of some ancient ruins relief - I suspect Roman - completely unnoticeable in the SD. Version but once in HD it stuck out a fair bit. So often with these complex murals I would make things up. We had the Zelda art book - and so in this particular case I used it for reference and just put stuff that I liked in. I did kind of imagine a story that I would like to see happen in a Zelda game though what that story is I’ll leave up to interpretation. I’m not sure Link being a child is relevant though since Link would have been a child at some point in all timelines." -Jack Kirby Crosby
My personal head cannon is that Hyrule Warriors is both the connecting game and the start of a new timeline, in the first Hyrule Warriors people from every timeline join up into the same timeline which would connect all of them for lore and species wise. It would cause another split because Age of Calamity is an alternate version of what took place before the great calamity
Cannot wait to see extensive discussions on this! While I don’t believe in a Zelda History and view the games as what their series name suggests (a legend) I find videos like this and the discussions they inevitably spawn, highly entertaining! So thanks for that!
The Calamity Saga (BoTW, AoC, ToTK) taking place in the Adult Timeline answers a lot of questions. And the depths works into it pretty well actually. Remember when the Deku Tree in Wind Waker sent Koroks scattering to the four winds to plant trees with the explicit intent of cultivating a continent? Perhaps that's exactly what the current incarnation of Hyrule is. And why the old Hyrule is mostly forgotten. So where did the water go you may ask? Well besides there still being ocean to the east and the south, divine beings such as Jabun, the Deku Tree and whatever the map fish are supposed to be seem able to survive off the ethereal waters so it's possible that there's just so many trees in that root network that they literally drank most of it, intentionally walling off reservoirs of fresh water for Hyruleans to survive on.
Towards the end of the video you equate the founding of Zora's domain with existence of the Zora people. I just wanted to point out this is probably the same issue as the Hylian people re-founding Hyrule kingdom. Awesome video and i love the lore and deep dive.
When I found the lore tablet that said that Sidon was Ruto's decedent I freaked out! Mostly because Majora's mask takes place a few months after Ocarina of Time which means that Majora's mask we find in the depths protected by 6 lynels could very well be the original which terrifies me because why would you need that much protection for a replica?
My theory is that the Great Flood of Hyrule was potentially one of the apocalyptic occurances that took place that aided the timeline into converging. After the Great Sea receded, the Zonai and other races resettled the land. The Rito we see in the Wind Waker could be even more ancient than the ones referred to by the Rito in Tears of the Kingdom. Or, TotK is just straight up in the Adult Timeline and it's only a matter of time until someone finds out how to prove it. This theory should help kickstart that journey, I hope. Also, I see you've decided to become a Legend! Thank you for your support!
Certainly interesting, but I still don't see too much evidence on some of the more specific elements like Zora living on Great Fish Isle, but the connections are there. The presence of Zora scales in Phantom Hourglass are certainly a very key piece of evidence at the very least, it seems unlikely that such an item would be present in such an amount without their origins being close by. Also neat details with the changes Komali seems to undergo after reaching Valoo and Yona's different jewellery, never noticed those things before.
I alway thought it never made sense why they became bird people but then as i got older it kinda did. The gods did'nt want anyone to find hyrule under the sea except the or a hero,( tower of the gods) they made it so zora around Hyrule could not find Hyrule by making them evolve into Rito , keeping them as far away from Underwater Hyrule. I also add only around Hyrule because one reason I think Rito and Zora co exist now is that years later Zora outside of Hyrule could have traveled back to Hyrule. Look at Yona ,Sidons wife, she came from another Domain which makes sense the world isnt just Hyrule there has to be other zora worldwide. Since before the gods sealed windwaker Gannon, he was winning maybe allot of people left Hyrule to save themselves which could explain how Sidon is a decendant of Ruto ,Sorry if this is talked about later in the video just started watching and wanted to share that thought or rather a rant 😂
My favourite out of Dorito (The Rito) is Ravioli (Revali) from Breath of the Wild lmao. Now I need to figure out how many Rito have names that are similar to food
i love that idea that "the concept of what a zelda game should be was still not solidified" at the time of windwaker... like... you think it's solidified NOW? 😂
I just can’t get enough of theory videos about the Zora and Rito. They’re my favorite races and I can’t seem to choose one I would want to be! People should be talking about the Sidon’s tablets because it also mentioned his history with Yona, which people love to ignore for the sake of hate “justifications” I theorize that Yona could be from Labrynna since it’s the only area we know besides Termina (not sure why Termina’s Zora would return to kingdom-like fashion) that have friendly Zora outside Hyrule onscreen. There could be Zora from New Hyrule, but that would be a bit awkward cuz yknow how royal bloodlines be like, but I feel like it would be inevitable because there was King Zora in Labrynna (Unless it’s a different King Zora) I wonder how New Hyrule would fair with the existence of OG Hyrule, unless they became the same kingdom over the years, but that would probs open a can of worms.
this was a fantastic video dude. ive been loving all your content, keep up the good work! hopefully this isnt weird to say, but your voice is super nice and soothing. i listened to this video while i was going to sleep last night, which was nice and peaceful and now im back to watch it again with my full attention span haha! awesome work
Interesting... but there was no ancient texts about the past hyrule and not even an infamous name like link was a first thing that the king of the gerudo would know about. He questioned the name once he heard it.
Or we're all going blind because they're is no Rito in TotK's past section. I think Nintendo is gaslighting us into thinking Rito existed around Ocarina of time.
I still think that the Past events of TotK/BotW occur AFTER the latest events of all the previous games. Alot of minor details would seem to support this. The known history of the Gerudo in TotK/BotW and their appearance would also imply that. OoT Gerudo have gold eyes and round ears, but in TotK/BotW, their eyes are now red and they have pointed ears... except Ganondorf who still has round ears and gold eyes. If OoT occurs after TotK/BotW past events... then OoT Gannondorf would be a much more recent occurrence in Gerudo history than TotK/BotW Gannondorf, yet the Gerudo are shamed by the current game's Gannondorf and it's because of him that they don't permit to have another male be born... instead of making any mention of OoT Gannondorf.
Yes, there are strong indications imo that the geography of BotW/TotK (which I vote we start calling the Merged Timeline) is mostly from the Adult Timeline. It also makes the most sense for the Zonai to have evolved during this timeline as well, perhaps taking to the sky to avoid the flooding of Hyrule.
i think totk really threw things for a loop, because theres a possibility of a new timeline split with time travel now being reintroduced to the series.
I love that info about the Ruto crown, didn't play that game but I know of new hyrule. Actually tbh I always wondered through if it was really a new continent or just the world just stopped being flooded and they hit the ground again, lol?
I played both games, but I had kinda forgotten about it, until the picture was showed and I was like "wait, isn't it.. oh SHIT !" and then I was hit with the realisation he explained and was like "I am an idiot sometimes..."
There's also the possibility that Ruto is the name of the Zora sage seen in TOTK's flashbacks and Sidon claims to be a descendant from her. She is the namesake of Vah Ruta and her mask shares the attributes of the divine beast. It's also doesn't really contradict the stone tablets. I'm of the belief that the events of TOTK's past is an alternate telling of Ocarina of Time because it exists in a branched timeline that runs parallel to OOT.
There’s better evidence for the memories to exist after all previous games and after a timeline merge, especially because there’s a lot of details to suggest Windwaker already happened, and that comes after OoT
@@c.r.blankenship9040 I can see it either way, but I'm curious, what's your support for favoring post-WW? Why I think it's on an alt timeline (which branched from Skyward Sword): -No mention of the Zonai in other timelines. Also the Sheikah went extinct when they are practically flourishing in 10000 prior to BOTW, and during BOTW and TOTK -SS Link and Zelda settled the surface but did not formerly establish a new kingdom -The springs, temples, and architecture of Skyward Sword are all still heavily featured and unchanged in BOTW/TOTK. This could be because Fujibayashi was the director on all 3 games however. -This placement gives credence that Rauru and Sonia are the first of the Hyrulean dynasty and their unbroken lineage allowed to flourish better until Zelda who inherited their power -I'm pretty convinced Ganondorf of OOT and TOTK are the same individual in parallel timelines. His actions are the same, and in both games he distinctly has rounded ears -Still keeps consistency with the Zora Stone tablets which is the only recorded history -It doesn't interfere with events and happenings of other Zelda games, this timeline may even re-join those timelines at some point There are of course some inconsistencies to still work out but I see this as a better placement theory.
@@Axecon1 so I’m probably gonna miss something in your comment so just reiterate it if I do, and I apologize if this is a little bit scattered. 1) the maps of BotW, TotK, and the TotK memories are all the same, indicating a continuous timeline between all three games but not with Skyward Sword 2) I don’t know if Koroks ever show up in the memories but in order for the memories to be before Skyward Sword, the Koroks would have to still be the Kokiri 3) the existence of the Arbiter’s Grounds - in a more ruined state than it was in in Twilight Princess - means that this is after Twilight Princess (though I suppose this wouldn’t technically rule out the memories happening before Twilight Princess) 4) Ganondorf did reincarnate once before at the end of the child timeline, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that it happened again 5) the Hyrule compendium entries for rock salt mentio that it was left behind by the great sea 6) the best explanation for when and why the Zonai evolved in the first place is the flooding of Hyrule, though they could conceivably also be descendants of the Wind Tribe from Minish Cap - either way, can’t be between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap 6) There is a rito sage who has the same fully avian appearance just like in BotW as opposed to the more human-looking rito in Windwaker, suggesting at least a thousand years of further evolution in the intervening time 7) the female Gerudo in the memories have pointed ears, which places them a considerable time after Ocarina I think there’s more, but I can’t think of it right now
@@c.r.blankenship9040 Thanks for sharing! I'm curious if we'll get answers in the DLC or future Zelda games but for now I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of debate on the timeline placement for years to come
That's some good Gossip. While I subscribe to BotW / TotK being a reboot, you raise some good points here. I personally think that Ruto mentioned in TotK is the name of the ancient sage who confirms that Sidon is her descendant. I know that the 10,000 years part muddles things a bit, but we don't know how long the cycles of Calamity occurred in the ancient past, and there is no guarantee that they took 10,000 years each. I'm not sure if you watched my video on the Sheikah Technology GG, but I speculated that the Sheikah created shrines of their own because Malice was building so rapidly that they basically had to double down on what the Shrines of Light were doing. They created their own, and then in an epic battle with a mechanical army supporting the current Princess and the Hero, they fought and defeated the Calamity. Their victory was so successful, their methods of mitigation so effective, that the Calamity would take 10,000 years to resurface... thus past of BotW. I like your work, we should talk more.
Pretty interesting theory you got there yourself. If you REALLY want a mind boggler, you should rewatch the intro story of Spirit Tracks knowing full well what we know now about TotK. The similarities are incredible.
12:45 i don't think it is a contradiction, it is merely the founding of a city, not the first introduction of the race to the area. Actually, now I think about it, Ganon might have destroyed the Zora's towns and so they went off and founded the city of Zora's Domain.
I know it's a silly detail, but King Rauru literally has body proportions like both the Rito and Zora, It's pretty clear the developers meant for this game to look like it takes place in the Wind Waker timeline, mostly by design choice.
This shouldn’t have been interpreted as a lore conflict. Divergent evolution is well-established, so it is perfectly possible that some Zora evolved into Rito whilst others did not. There was no contradiction by the Rito and Zora existing simultaneously, unless we were told that *all* Zora evolved into Rito (but we could also chalk that up to unreliable narrators). Still, I enjoyed your exploration of the supposed conflict! Thanks for making this video 🙂
Ah, the theory is that a wave of enemy entering your domain, as the result you must go to harsher place to survive and get changed in the process to adapting, but some of your kind stay and some also go to new place but still bring your kind's old tradition and then make a nation that similiar to your old homeland, while you make a new nation that's almost 180° different from what your old kingdom looks like
This answers the zora rito issue, now if only someone could explain how ganondorf has been sealed underneath Hyrule Castle since the founding of Hyrule, if the last 2 titles are to be after all of the previous titles how has he been left undisturbed through all of the events of those games. I don't see how he could be down there during oot after what happened to Hyrule Castle. Think we need to deal with the elephant in the room before we claim a possible reboot
@@GossipGeist thing that is missing is that males in the gerudo is suppose to be born every 100 years but in botw it has been over 10k years from what we hear on a male being born in the race
Short answer: Hyrule was refounded. The map of the Imprisoning War's world is the same as BotW and 10 000 years ago. The other games have different maps but Ancient Hyrule having the same as BotW proves that they took place consecutively, not before any of the other games. Other things prove this as well. The Zonai rulers calling the Phantom Ganon armor ancient to them or the Imprisoning War being a documented part of Hyrule's history (Therefore not part of the era of myth) means that the other games took place before.
@Defender1876 My Theory about that is the the Gerudo Women keep evert male born a heavy secret. They may feel that it may incite fear in Hyrule since they know the calamity was once a Gerudo Male. A more morbid theory is that they straight up kill every male at birth. Though, I highly doubt Nintendo would make that Canon.
Hm well the issue with Ganon is simple. He is put on a life and death needle which could imply that the Ganondorf did restart the curse but once calamity broke out (or the past battles did) it would weaken the seal. We also have to take I to a fact that almost every Ganondorf before or after was attracted to his body, aka under hyrule. They usually go towards hyrule all the time.
It doesn't make sense. These games are simply made by people who don't remember, don't care or deliberately create this things to have people talk about it. The theory's coming from this are usually pretty interesting and cool to think about. Also, we have some ocean creatures on earth, that evolved from land animals, who came from the ocean. So it is not impossible. Since all life comes form the ocean, so do all birds.
I'm still a big fan of MatPat's Hyrule Warriors theory, which implies that it is the game before BotW that reunites the timelines,, thus explaining why Rito and Zora coexist in the game, as well as explaining why the divine beasts are named after Medli and Ruto.
in multiple asian languages, "10,000" can be non-literal and instead mean "hundreds upon hundreds", as in, "an amount so big, it's uncountable". So when Doraphan's tablet says "Thus, as the legends go, the domain was born 10,000 years ago", the intent could've instead been "the domain was born hundreds upon hundreds of years ago". So you can take instances of the number "10,000" with a grain of salt.
Some of this I agree with. I don't agree with the "dead sages" theory. For one thing, they are shown to be very much alive at the end of Ocarina of Time. They lack any of the usual Zelda depictions of ghosts whether they be friend or enemy.
Well, the Satori is a dead sage, technically. I can’t remember where I saw it in Tears Of the Kingdom, but there was something about a story of a Sage that fought til his last breath, where it had died on Satori Mountain, becoming the guardian of the mountain after death.
Try saying "Digitigrade" 5 times fast!
Check out Part 2 and 3 of this video where I answer some questions about this Timeline theory that weren't mentioned in this video!
Part 2: th-cam.com/video/fgn-c-n43lg/w-d-xo.html
Part 3: th-cam.com/video/kRyMZERMXQ0/w-d-xo.html
I tried it. I can get to 3 times, but then I end with "Diggity Diggity Diggity."
@@Joe-ik1phdiggity diggity doo
@@Joe-ik1ph 😂
I ended with biggayparade
I got Didididaguay
Regarding the time discrepancy-- in several East Asian languages, 10,000 is used to mean any significantly large number. When referring to a length of time, it's usually more accurate to translate it as "a long time ago" (or "forever ago" in some instances) instead of exactly "10,000 years ago."
I originally learned this info you brought in Avatar: The Legend of Aang. There is an owl spirit that lives in a library. I don’t remember his name, but his title was “the one that knows 10.000 things” and that is meant to mean that he knows a lot, not that he knows EXACTLY 10.000 things. It’s always nice to spread knowledge.
It also could just mean that, while zora were present and existed in Hyrule, an independent kingdom did not come about until much later
Funnily eough this also true in English! Myriad both means a lot and 10000.
Surely, nintendo wouldn't add something that vague to their game's lore...
...Right?
Thank you so much. Whether or not BotW/TotK take place on (any of) the timeline(s), this fixes sooo many problems.
I gotta say, I love how the fans are like, "Here is my 57-point power point explaining Zora evolution" when you just know the devs were like, "Throw Ruto's Crown in there because it'll be a cute Easter egg and nothing more."
Real lol. I’m a pretty new Zelda fan, but I’ve become kinda obsessed because of this stuff. The only other fandom that I can think of that’s this obsessed with making canon fit together is Star Wars, and even they’re not this insane.
Fans: There must be an extremely complicated and impossibly bulletproof plan and detailed timeline in the Devs heads.
GJRRM on GoT: I have a dude that remembers the lore for me because I forget.
Akira Toriyama on why some characters don't show up anymore in Dragonball: *who?* what are u talking about? 👀 Oh I forgot they exist
The Devs are just people they probably either forgot or didn't realise it was a possible issue 😂
@@MxDiagnosis the devs: yea, these 3 games and all future games are standalone unless stated otherwise.
It wasn't that they forgot in the case of Zelda, it's that they legit don't WANT to be tied down by having to have a "canon timeline" anymore.
The 3 games being Age of Calamity, BoTW and ToTK, which are connected to eachother, but not connected to any of the other games, as evidenced by the discrepancies with the sealing war, founding of Hyrule, etc.
@@scottishcheese13 Check out Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere (like Mistborn or the Way of Kings) if you like different fantasy stories that have lots of connections
@scottishcheese13 also a star wars fan, they are 100% this insane as well haha. It's sad but kind of understandable why the developers dont really cater to people who love lore, i'm sure it's hard for them to keep up with the lore internally. Maybe that's why totk doesnt really connect to the previous games, they just didnt wanna accidentally retcon things more than they did
Something to add to your Ruto and the silver theory is that in BOTW 50% of Zora weapons are made of silver: Silver Bow, Silver Longsword, Silver Shield and Silverscale Trident.
50%? What is the rest made of? I only remember silver.
@@hermi1-kenobi455some non specified, silver like metal. It is described as "special" and "very durable and rust-proof". It's probably some ancient stainless steel/silver alloy or something.
@@asurveillancecamera3392 judging by what you say we could probably say it’s a form of silver while being mixed with a bit of platinum for the durability. Though you have to take in the count platinum being probably a valuable resource so they probably only would use something like that with the Royal blood line since platinum is a rare resource and all.
ooooh ty! @@asurveillancecamera3392
@@hermi1-kenobi455 one of the tablets in BotW describes the land of Zora's Domain being "rich in ore", and the ancient Zora creating a "unique form of stonemasonry" for the construction of Zora's Domain. The Zora weapons might be made out of the same material as the Domain itself, with the same form of stonemasonry, which results in the waterproof, rust proof, water-damage-boosting properties of their weapons (and it might not *actually be* silver, the ore might just be silver in color. Sterling silver is *more resistant* to tarnishing from getting wet, but it still has to be kept dry and out of excess moisture so it won't tarnish so fast)
If there really was some massive incident that caused Hyrule to be destroyed and only refounded after the godlike Zonai descended from the sky, I am shocked the Zora had solid enough historical records to know who Ruto was.
They live incredibly long lives and so they’re likely better at keeping oral history than most
@@M33f3r Considering Dorephan was king 100 years before BotW (likely a good while before then as well considering his daughter Mipha is a Zora of some type of maturity by that time), plus Sidon "only" being as big as he is compared to his father after a full 100 years and change, the Zora likely have lifespans in the vein of fantasy elves, lasting centuries as a baseline. The sage shown in TotK is likely only about 5-12 generations removed from present day.
Not unbelievable though. I'll take this over needing to ignore big plotholes because of the post-skyward sword interpretation.
Wasn’t there like 10,000+ years between Age Of Calamity and Ocarina Of Time? Not unbelievable but like what the hell
@@i_garfed_on_the_carpet 10,000 years before Age of Calamity was the Ancient Calamity.
20-30,000 years before that was the Tears of the Kingdom past cutscenes
An UNFATHOMABLE AMOUNT OF TIME before that was Ocarina of Time.
Ocarina of Time is so ancient there is no proof it even happened.
The Ancient Cistern is eldritch levels of old as a structure. The Temple of Time is slightly less eldritch, with Rauru (the light sage) likely having built it during the time of Hylia.
I like the idea that the Zora change to fit the appearance of the sea life around them. That, if nothing else, could be used to partially explain why the classic River Zoras look so drastically different... although I don't think it explains why they can breathe fire lol
Maybe the fish and algae in Hyrule’s seas are spiceier than in it’s lakes and rivers?
I mean, why do you think that River Zoras and Fire Arrows never appear in the same game?
Fire flowers!
I never realized just how different Komali looked before getting his wings.
Neither did I, I honestly never really thought about it.
You know, on a fundamental level I never really understood why people were so torn about the Zora and the Rito existing in one time... There's always been a very simple rationale for it that's hard to argue against, that the Zora-turned-Rito and the Zora are simply different lines of evolution. I do like your more in depth rationale for it.
I remember a fake documentary that was on a television channel once, that tried to do a "If dragons were real, how would they work scientifically?" One part basically said that the serpent-like body shape of eastern dragons was the result of dragons there retreating to the water for safety (and evolving to survive there), and later came back to the land relatively recently. European dragons never retreated to the ocean, and thus the different appearance compared to eastern dragons. So BotW Rito could be Zora that stayed bird people (and evolved to be more bird-like), while BotW Zora are Zora that evolved into the beak-nosed Rito, only to evolve back into Zora after the flood was over.
i think the thing is that wind waker never implied that there were other tribes of zora, leading us to believe they all just became the rito.
It's the classic, if dogs come from wolves, why are there still wolves? style of disingenuous argument for the sake of argument. It's not that complicated, given you actually want to understand how species diversify.
Plus there's one or more games I remember that literally had two different types of zora(one friendly, and one enemies). Full on different species.
@@samuelhagberg3694personally the only one i can think of is link between worlds and i think in that one the zora queen basically said "yeah, i tell my subjects to behave but none of them listen."
Whoa, wait did you say the Gorons just rolled around the great flooded seafloor without issues? That makes sense I guess
It's possible that they started living around Fire Mountains volcanic seafloor vents.
@@bennusmagnus5277that actually makes a lot of sense since they don’t need to breathe. They might just be chilling at the base of death mountain, underwater, Eaton rocks.
theres a reason they had to be distracted by crack instead of suffocated, blinded, and frozen.
@@kitsofthekats7040 For a second there I forgot the marbled rock roasts existed, and your comment was incredibly concerning.
same @@bennusmagnus5277 much confusion for a good minute, i was like uh could he mean a literal hole in the ground? but yes, very valid point @kisofthekat7040
Ruto taking her Zora out could be the inception of the foreign Zora in TotK
Well, some of those Zora may have stayed outside of Hyrule too.
Right the Zora who stayed who stayed became the Rito or were wiped out, the ones who left created a new domain under Ruta but then later came back when the waters receded, which explains the silver, while the “old” domain” (really the newer roots), adopted gold.
@@mackenziebeeney3764where does it saw about the newer roots
This is honestly closer to how evolution works in real life. It's not about one species turning into another, it's about common ancestry. Modern Rito and modern Zora share a common ancestor in the OoT style Zora from before the great flood (or some other event depending on timeline shenanigans) separated at least two populations of Zora, and each group adapted to a different environment. Their adaptations may have been more magical and less "natural selection", which could explain away any time periods that may have been too short for that level of change.
In real life we have RECORDS of things like this. And usually they don't completely fail to mention they exist when they're sentient beings with language
Yeah but real life Evolution doesn't take just 10000 years to change from a either fish creature or mammalian creature into a bird creature.
@@jacquestube Which is why I brought up the fact that there was magic involved...
@Applemangh yeah its not farfetched since magic exists in the zelda games. I mean if Purah can change her age with magic, I don't see why they couldn't use magic to evolve because clearly it is capable of changing bodies
Purah didn't change her age with magic she did it by experimenting with sheikah technology
Knowing evolutionary history, I'm now imagining there was a dinosaur stage between Zora and Rito
Like, some dragon like people, like... Volga in Hyrule warrior ? (I think he is the only case of a humanoid dragon in Zelda, even if it is non-canon)
I think its more so toned down their aquatic traits while making them more avian baseline. It could be that the BotW Zora are merely how the fish-people look when without a patron, compare them to the child timeline zora with larger fins and greater reliance on water or the downfall zora who became more similar to monsters. I think the Oracle games even have link meet some zora that still resemble the ones from OoT and have a patron.
@@orianefaton1885ummm, actually
Why? It's more like mammoths and elephants. Mammoths split into many different kinds of elephants. Some big, some smaller.
@@aaronolson6736the fuck is a patron in this context
I thought there was an implication that the Rito Sage from Windwaker was also a descendant of Ruto, so she had children that were divided between these two groups.
That connection between them was merely a suggestion based off of their naming similarities, but wasn't actually a canonical thing. I'm pretty sure one of the books makes this suggestion, while at the same time, it also suggests that Valoo, the Spirit of the Sky is the descendant of Volvagia, the Spirit of the Mountain. Volvagia has always been an evil dragon Spirit. Its hard to believe something that naturally evil would have such a well meaning descendant like Valoo. I just think they wrote a lot of stuff in those books that visually looked like it made sense to them when seeing the material in front of them to place into the book, but unless you really played these games, you wouldn't know any better.
@@GossipGeist It's not so much the names being similar, its that Sages tend to be related and when the Rito Sage in Windwaker "becomes a Sage" and plays her music or whatever her "ancestor" a zora sage appears... but I guess i remembered things incorrectly as this is a different zora than Ruto, and was a "Earth Sage" not the "Water Sage" that Ruto was... so i guess i messed that point up.
@@mazhiwezakizo3513 Well, nothing stop that Ruto may have had more than one kid, leaving one of those to stay with their people (maybe the eldest) and leaving with the youngest that may still need her or something, you know.
@@mazhiwezakizo3513Well even the Earth Sage Laruto could have descended from Ruto, it would make a lot of sense and would also make Medli her blood descendant since she's related to Laruto.
@@GossipGeistyeah the books just made stuff up to look nice, and the games are disconnected and not a cohesive lore, no matter how much we retroactively apply lore.
And nintendo definitely lied the first time they said they had a real timeline. Fans made the timeline, Nintendo just took the concept.
I never noticed that about Komali. It's not everyday I learn a new piece of lore I didn't know already. Kudos sir.
i think it also helps the fact that in oracle of seasons, there are zoras looking for new lands to create a new domain
I thought it was similar to this. The BoTW Rito were just an offshoot of the Zora with Raruu's Hyrule being so far into the future that the pervious games were just stories
Yes😊
With that in mind it makes so much sense that you can find all the previous hero’s gear kept safe in chests only in Zonai ancients buildings, because it's relics of their tales and history. Meaning that Zonai in previous games were maybe indeed gods living above, watching Hyrule, before deciding to descend among hyrulians for not know reasons yet ( Kind of loopholes in what I said but I like the idea )
@@namazuna4739 I can see that as well. Honestly, I saw it as the Zonai coming down after a timeline convergence left the people in a, well, to be generous, a dark age
@@soloknight7197 I agree. During this convergence, maybe even the kingdom of Hyrule in itself may have been lost, explaining why King Rauru is presented as the creator of the kingdom of Hyrule as if it didn’t exist before. Zonai may have suffer from the convergence too, explaining their decline, leading the few descending to the earth and try to recreate a new Hyrule as their knew before ( Even if I do have another theory that Zonai may have doomed themselves and their civilisation relying to much on zonaite and begin to decline when zonaite became too rare due to their overuse)
@@namazuna4739 That makes sense
On the subject of Dorephan's monument stating that the Domain was founded 10,000 years ago there might be a possible explanation that, oddly enough, really has nothing to do with anything in the games themselves and more has to do with the translation between Japanese and English.
What I mean is that the number 10,000 can hold a unique meaning in certain aspects of Asian cultures because it has ties to...I forget if it's Buddhism or Shintoism, but it's one of the two. Basically, it's common in stories told from Asiatic religions to use the number ten thousand as a synonym for "too large to be quantified." So someone saying "I have fought in ten thousand battles" doesn't mean they've actually fought 10,000 battles but rather means "I have fought in more battles than it is possible to count." Or someone saying "I am he who knows ten thousand things" doesn't mean they only know 10,000 facts and instead means "I am someone who has more knowledge than it is possible to describe."
That said, it's possible that since the games are made by Japanese developers that their use of the number 10,000 when describing the Zora's Domain's history isn't literally saying it was founded precisely 10,000 years ago but was rather intended in that specific cultural context where it was really meant to convey that it was founded farther back in time than anyone can actually describe. Then the English translators didn't catch on to that possible other meaning and kept the original number of 10,000 when a more accurate translation would have been to translate it as something more vague like "since before recorded history" or just "ancient."
So basically, the same hyperbolic use as when we default to "a million".
@@aliciacordero8399 In terms of the actual meaning, the English equivalent would be closer to when we use a made-up measurement like a "bajillion" or "zillion." We're making it sound like it could be an actual number by using something that sounds like actual large counts like billion or trillion, but the actual meaning is that the made-up number is just a stand-in for the concept of "too big to give an actual number to." The main difference is just that they use an actual number (10,000) rather than a made-up one.
There isn’t a way of saying the number in plural in Japanese, so they have to say the specific huge number (ie there’s no word for “hundreds” or “thousands”). Eight hundred is another of of those figurative numbers that just means “a lot, but not more than a thousand”.
Whereas in English and similar languages it could have been translated as “thousands of years ago”
@@justcomments interesting
But japanese has a word for 10 thousand (ichi man) 20 (ni man) 100 thousand (jyu man) a million (hyakku man) and even 'several ten thousands' (suu man) (yes they use 10 thousand as unit, just like we do with 1000)
I'm not sure if this theory applies here
Zora are an interesting race in general since theres like at least 4 distinct types before the Rito or the possibility they come from those things in SS. They just seem really genetically changable.
What things from SS? The tadpoles? I played it long ago and forgot it 😅
@@umi2751 yeah the parella, they live in the same area, are sentient aquatic race, and were planned to look more like Zora originally. They might nor be zora ancestors but they were clearly meant to be connected.
This was very interesting! A split of the Zora population allowing one to evolve into the Rito and both coexisting definitely seems plausible.
I don't think enough theories take into consideration how important it is that OoT is canon to the timeline in Wild/Kingdom. Unless totk's past is meant to be an all-in-one retcon of OoT where the ancient Zora sage IS Ruto (doubtful imo) then we are definitely seeing a sequel game. I only bring it up as I've seen a few too many hard reboot theories or SS split theories.
EXCELLENT vid as always btw
It's most likely a soft reboot of the franchise.
@@zomfraggerwhich sucks and I reject wholeheartedly. The original imprisoning war story and timeline is so much more interesting than TotK’s mess of a story.
@@disgustedluigiAgreed.
The past part of TOTK doesn’t explicitly state it takes place at the same time as OoT. So it’s better assumed that the past of TOTK still takes place thousands of years after the other Zelda games. Another thing to note, Nintendo doesn’t seem to actually care about the timeline and only make it seem like they do for the fans.
I went into this video expecting to not agree with the conclusion, but when you made the point about the other Zora using gold, I was suprised at how quickly I was convinced this theory holds water. Excellent catch. I like this explanation so much I hope it gets printed in a new history of hyrule and Nintendo pays you royalties for it.
What an excellent theory! The Zora lineage has always been a topic of great interest to me. As much as I've studied the monuments though, I overlooked how huge the detail about their migration is, and Yona's gold jewelry is a big find as well. Before it was clear to me that BotW was in the adult timeline, I'd thought a lot about different factions of Zora creating the Rito and the River Zora we'd see in other timelines, but I eventually resigned to these new games being a reboot. I'm glad to see that in a weird way I wasn't too far off. I'll definitely be looking into this line of thought more going forward.
Aww man, I’ve been trying to get to get in game photos of the domain at night. It’s always raining thought. But this, @3:28 this is STUNNING.
8:55
Thebuse of the Hyrule Warriors character portraits here makes me smile. Always happy to see people acknowledge that awesome game in some way.
They evolved via magic is an easier cop out and not unusual in rpg games. We think of evolution as taking centuries via darwinism. But we completely forget that magic doesn't require explanation.
It's not a cop out. It's just more creative than having it be normal evolution.
Another thing to note about the design of the Zora and Rito in BotW and TotK is that they have the same irises and pupils. It’s likely just a coincidence but regardless, I like to imagine the fact both races share that kind of eye implies their relation to each other
I think it’s clear that Ruto could have been having children in the child timeline. I don’t see why she couldn’t have been the grandmother of Rutela and great grandmother of Ralis. The zora diaspora happening as you recounted it could still have happened the same way over the millennia though. I usually think of the Ocarina sages as having died and turned into spirits, but even if they didn’t, it’s hard to think of the sage of water abandoning Hyrule in its broken state with the great sea. Perhaps she was really old by that point though and the only sage left alive. Excellent video!
Well the hero didn't show up, and then as a last resort the gods solved the problem by flooding Hyrule. There wasn't much Ruto could have done at that point except make sure her people survive. The other sages likely did the same for their own people
Ruto may have been the sage of water that Ganondorf murdered. TP is known for having the flashbacks be vague and using placeholder characters, like with the dark interlopers or whatever being shown as evil Links.
Sidon being Ruto’s descendant also means the the sages weren’t all dead.
nabooru was also alluded to in breath of the wild
I mean, why wouldn't they have all come back? The fact that Rauru isn't with them on Death Mountain sort of gives the feeling that they aren't just visiting in Spirit form
I got so confused there for a hot second until I remembered Rauru was also the name of the OG light sage in OoT, not just the furry king lmao @@heyoyo10gaming4
@@majora5651 Wait until you hear about what they called the battle where Ganondorf was sealed away after OOT in the Fallen Hero Timeline
What if she gave birth before dying or even becoming a sage?
With fish and other sea life being in the waters of New Hyrule it is definitely possible they found new waters outside of the great sea
Honestly, your sources are insanely credible. I had no idea about the Zora coffee in TWW! That said, I don't think evolutions need the great flood to happen. I think that the Kokiri evolve into the Koroks whenever there is a need to move the lost woods. It just so happens that the flood was one of those triggers. I think the Zora/Rito could be a similar case, and doesn't necessarily need the flood to evolve. Furthermore, the Zora wouldn't need the flood to separate into three different sects as DT also has the Zora divided.
The Koroks have always looked like Koroks. They were only human appearing for the sake of the Hero of Time. Once he was gone they returned to their little cute tree forms lol
@@kileysevens9116 Koroks never appeared in the Downfall timeline, but people that resemble Kokiri, like the sage of forest from LBW or Farore the oracle of secrets, or the maiden from Link to the Past that may or may not be a descendant of Saria, or the logging twins who have a similar name to Kokiri in the Japanese version. The Deku tree seems to exist in the downfall timeline, assuming Echoes of Wisdom is in the Downfall timeline.
something to note as well-feathers are actually modified scales. So this theory tracks scientifically as well 👍
This is a theory I had while playing Tears of the Kingdom a while ago, but I didn't really do research to find hard clues, and I definitely wasn't gonna remember the collectables from Phantom Hourglass. Being reminded that those two items exist and having the silver consistency pointed out definitely makes me think we're right on the money.
As for the Zora and Rito existing in the far past that Tears is claiming to show, I've seen a couple possible theories that're going in completely different directions, so my conclusion is that the placement of those memories isn't as clear cut as the game tries to lead us to believe. I just hope they're not actually the huge OoT retcon and franchise reboot they appear to be.
This video is legit. I like this theory because it brings up the fact that there's other lands besides Hyrule. And also that there are things going on in other places that we may or may not know about, like the second Zora's Domain. There is a Zora Village in Labrynna (Oracle of Ages), so TotK isn't the first game to tell us there are other groups of Zora outside Hyrule (depending on peoples' thoughts about whether Termina is real or not). Labrynna also has a Goron population, and Holodrum (Oracle of Seasons) features Gorons and Deku Scrubs.
Just found this out: apparently in a linked game of Oracle of Seasons you can find a Zora from Labrynna who was sent by the Zora King there to find a new domain (but he says Holodrum has nowhere good to settle for Zoras).
EDIT: also, Fujibayashi has directed a few Zelda titles, including the Oracle games and TotK. Just something to think about
I'm so incredibly whelmed by this video, and happy about it too.
Made this connection a while ago but until now had yet to see a video on it. It was always "how can zora and rito coexist it doesnt make sense! must be time shenanigans!". Like it literally mentions they evolved. Doesn't mean every single zora did, and we know there are multiple zora populations.
It's like wondering how gorilla exist if we humans do. It's understandable not to realize how silly that is, but it does make me chuckle, or irk me from time to time.
16:05 Huh, never realized how well Destiny Islands OST fits the vibe of wind waker... I like it
God I loved this video, it reminded me of the old videos/posts about the timeline before it was actually established. Love Zelda deep dives, and regardless if Nintendo intends for all these connections to actually be a thing, still so neat for players and fans to find stuff like this
Fantastic video buddy. The levels of research required to craft this theory and make these connections must’ve been insane! 😅
And with that one spoken line of being Ruto's decendant, the entire "the sages are dead" theory collapses.
evolution nerd here who's headed to university later this month to study!
the concept you've come up with is actually a real thing called reproductive isolation! in this case, it's habitat isolation, where a new species arises due to isolation from other members of its species. this is why you find many endemic (native to only a small area) species on islands; their ancestors could no longer breed with the mainland population and thus developed their own unique set of traits. it's why marine iguanas look so unique compared to mainland iguanas :)
That’s why the separation theory initially makes sense… though when I thought about it more I realized that Zora would probably die if they came into contact with salt water… so my current theory is that all the Zora evolved into the Rito in Windwaker, and then later the timelines merged and the Sora from the Child Timeline populated the Lanayru region
This is a perfect theory. I've always assumed it was divergent evolution, but you found all the evidence
Thank you for watching my content! I put a lot of time into researching this one, I'm glad that you enjoyed it!
another note that i think helps this is the zonai coming and helping establish hyrule - the small populace of hyrule at that point probably needed help and the zonai were that help
This is the first Zelda theory in awhile that’s really gotten me thinking, so good job!
If this idea is true though, I wonder if it could help to explain a converged timeline. With the time mechanics the series has shown that’s impossible to happen, however BOTW and TOTK strongly suggest that reality. Mostly because it seems they wanted to soft reboot the series, but it’s a lot to consider.
Dorephan's story still holds up, based on the script on the stone tablet we repair in the The Broken Slate quest (part of the Sidon of the Zora main quest), and the cutscene that plays after we complete the Water Temple, where Zelda visits the Sage of Water AT the Water Temple/Wellspring Island. Dorephan's tale says that, 10,000 years ago, the Zora settled in what is now Zora's Domain, and that the Zora king of that era built East Reservoir Lake in partnership with the current king of Hyrule. In The Broken Slate, the slate mentions "the watery bridge's resting place" that "connects the Zora to the people of the skies"; the "watery bridge" is the waterfall that comes down into East Reservoir Lake when we shoot the King's Scale through the stones in the shape of a water droplet, which leads right up to Wellspring Island/the Water Temple, where Zelda spoke to the Zora Sage of Water 10,000 years ago, who then promised that their descendant (Sidon) would assist the future hero in defeating the Demon King
So: the ancient Zora settled in what is now Zora's Domain due to the quality of the water (likely due to the existence of the Ancient Zora Waterworks, which were presumably a filtration system, and are Zonai in origin based on the fact that their architecture matches the architecture of the Water Temple). The Zora of 10,000 years ago built East Reservoir Lake to prevent the catastrophic floods that happened every ten years in collaboration with the current Hyrulean king (probably Rauru), and the waterfall from Wellspring Island connected the Zora to the "people of the skies" (the Zonai). At some point after the Imprisoning War, the waterfall from Wellspring Island stopped falling, and the sky islands (including Wellspring Island and the Water Temple) were hidden from view. Nearly all knowledge of the Zonai and their technology was lost, and the Ancient Zora Waterworks fell into disrepair, resulting in modern Zoras' ability to purify water (they were forced to learn this technique when the Ancient Zora Waterworks were no longer being maintained and all knowledge of them had vanished from living memory)
I am a little new to this discussion and the fact my guy said at the end this took 20 years to kind of solve it is insane
Awesome video! That really does neatly tie the rito and zora up in a nice little bow! The details about Komali were an awesome catch!
"The games are more than likely just reboots of the series after the timelines have converged"
That was already confirmed by Nintendo. The point of BOTW was to converge the timeline and reboot the line at the same time. Which is why so many things from all 3 timelines appears in the BOTW/TOTK games, like Lynels for example, who only appeared in the Fallen hero line.
But I'm happy to find a theory channel that actually clarified the zora's disappearance and reappearance. I was always just under the impression that some Zora eggs were left in the old domain in some sort of sanctuary and resurfaced after the flood diminished.
There's no converging, just a soft reboot where past games are old "legends".
unless you count the converging that happened in Hyrule Warriors
Deliberately obscured and (potentially) implied? Yes.
Confirmed convergence? No.
I had the beginnings of this theory during my first TOTK playthrough! When Sidon mentions that his fiancé (forgot her name) is from another place, I was like “what?”. Then as the old sages were shown, I knew that the “first Hyrule” couldn’t have been the one from just after Skyward Sword. I mention in one of my streams that the Zora from elsewhere must have been Zora from before the flood that didn’t evolve into Rito and then came back
Anakin: In the Wind Waker, Hyrule is a vast ocean with islands.
Padme: Oh, so there’s lots of Zoras in this game?
Anakin:
This man
just solved
EVERYTHING!
Now I can finally sleep easy.
Another detail to add is that in wind waker, they still have a royalty, where as in botw and onward its a chieftian leadership. They probably still had royalty from Zora culture until it was phased out
Oh, good catch!
Also, something more simple-
Zora (not River Zora) are seen living off the coast of Labrynna. The Zora in BotW/TotK could have possibly migrated over.
Also, Twilight princess shows stone carvings of Zora and Rito living at the same time, so maybe there are different types of Rito depending on the timeline (similar to Zora)
The Twilight Princess Rito carvings are non-canon.
@@Ahouro Is that officially stated?
@@MrMindCloud If you go to Zeltik, look for this video Zelda: Twilight Princess' Strangest Mystery… Solved? and then you will have all information on the mural you will need.
@@Ahouro you gonna back that up with a source?
@@Leeloo-Foxx A quote from the graphic designer responsible for the mural "A lot of the original textures were often photos that had been manipulated into textures, the one you shared there was actually a picture of some ancient ruins relief - I suspect Roman - completely unnoticeable in the SD. Version but once in HD it stuck out a fair bit. So often with these complex murals I would make things up. We had the Zelda art book - and so in this particular case I used it for reference and just put stuff that I liked in. I did kind of imagine a story that I would like to see happen in a Zelda game though what that story is I’ll leave up to interpretation. I’m not sure Link being a child is relevant though since Link would have been a child at some point in all timelines." -Jack Kirby Crosby
My personal head cannon is that Hyrule Warriors is both the connecting game and the start of a new timeline, in the first Hyrule Warriors people from every timeline join up into the same timeline which would connect all of them for lore and species wise. It would cause another split because Age of Calamity is an alternate version of what took place before the great calamity
Cannot wait to see extensive discussions on this! While I don’t believe in a Zelda History and view the games as what their series name suggests (a legend) I find videos like this and the discussions they inevitably spawn, highly entertaining! So thanks for that!
if you just solved this than you have blessed the zelda fanbase and the greatest debate in zelda history thankyou
Wind Waker is obe of the greatest Zelda games. The art style is stunning.
I like this better than "some of them turned back into Zora"
Sick video, i hope this theory spreads and we can finally put this mystery to rest
The Calamity Saga (BoTW, AoC, ToTK) taking place in the Adult Timeline answers a lot of questions. And the depths works into it pretty well actually. Remember when the Deku Tree in Wind Waker sent Koroks scattering to the four winds to plant trees with the explicit intent of cultivating a continent? Perhaps that's exactly what the current incarnation of Hyrule is. And why the old Hyrule is mostly forgotten. So where did the water go you may ask? Well besides there still being ocean to the east and the south, divine beings such as Jabun, the Deku Tree and whatever the map fish are supposed to be seem able to survive off the ethereal waters so it's possible that there's just so many trees in that root network that they literally drank most of it, intentionally walling off reservoirs of fresh water for Hyruleans to survive on.
Towards the end of the video you equate the founding of Zora's domain with existence of the Zora people. I just wanted to point out this is probably the same issue as the Hylian people re-founding Hyrule kingdom. Awesome video and i love the lore and deep dive.
When I found the lore tablet that said that Sidon was Ruto's decedent I freaked out! Mostly because Majora's mask takes place a few months after Ocarina of Time which means that Majora's mask we find in the depths protected by 6 lynels could very well be the original which terrifies me because why would you need that much protection for a replica?
the rito have existed since ancient times according to the rito stormark song.
My theory is that the Great Flood of Hyrule was potentially one of the apocalyptic occurances that took place that aided the timeline into converging. After the Great Sea receded, the Zonai and other races resettled the land. The Rito we see in the Wind Waker could be even more ancient than the ones referred to by the Rito in Tears of the Kingdom. Or, TotK is just straight up in the Adult Timeline and it's only a matter of time until someone finds out how to prove it. This theory should help kickstart that journey, I hope.
Also, I see you've decided to become a Legend! Thank you for your support!
The Stormwind Ark was most likely built after all games except Botw and Totk.
Now I need someone to solve how a dream can become a seagull without it being a genocide .
Wow, great insight about the dragon scale and the Zora evolution into the Rito.
The lizalfos?
@@The-Silliest-Little-GuyLizarfos have always been regular enemies throughout the series.
Congratulations on almost hitting 10k! I remember watching you a little bit ago when you were just over 1k!
Certainly interesting, but I still don't see too much evidence on some of the more specific elements like Zora living on Great Fish Isle, but the connections are there. The presence of Zora scales in Phantom Hourglass are certainly a very key piece of evidence at the very least, it seems unlikely that such an item would be present in such an amount without their origins being close by.
Also neat details with the changes Komali seems to undergo after reaching Valoo and Yona's different jewellery, never noticed those things before.
8:40 what was with the eye brows xD
I alway thought it never made sense why they became bird people but then as i got older it kinda did. The gods did'nt want anyone to find hyrule under the sea except the or a hero,( tower of the gods) they made it so zora around Hyrule could not find Hyrule by making them evolve into Rito , keeping them as far away from Underwater Hyrule. I also add only around Hyrule because one reason I think Rito and Zora co exist now is that years later Zora outside of Hyrule could have traveled back to Hyrule. Look at Yona ,Sidons wife, she came from another Domain which makes sense the world isnt just Hyrule there has to be other zora worldwide. Since before the gods sealed windwaker Gannon, he was winning maybe allot of people left Hyrule to save themselves which could explain how Sidon is a decendant of Ruto ,Sorry if this is talked about later in the video just started watching and wanted to share that thought or rather a rant 😂
Man, I'm telling you. Everytime he says "the Rito", I hear Dorito
My favourite out of Dorito (The Rito) is Ravioli (Revali) from Breath of the Wild lmao.
Now I need to figure out how many Rito have names that are similar to food
Komali is my all-time favorite video game character and i never noticed his evolutionary growth 🤯
To be honest with you, neither did I until I was making this video, lmao.
Gossip Geist: You know who else uses silver gemstones?
Muscle Man: *My mom!*
I‘m really happy that the Zora and Rito are existing side by side ❤
You expect me to listen to 13:51 and not make a Muscle Man joke out of that?
Nice video btw!
i love that idea that "the concept of what a zelda game should be was still not solidified" at the time of windwaker... like... you think it's solidified NOW? 😂
It really should be at this point, but after the last two games, I don't think it is anymore, lol.
@@GossipGeist Especially with the new one announced.
bro is single handedly saving the timeline concept
I just can’t get enough of theory videos about the Zora and Rito. They’re my favorite races and I can’t seem to choose one I would want to be!
People should be talking about the Sidon’s tablets because it also mentioned his history with Yona, which people love to ignore for the sake of hate “justifications”
I theorize that Yona could be from Labrynna since it’s the only area we know besides Termina (not sure why Termina’s Zora would return to kingdom-like fashion) that have friendly Zora outside Hyrule onscreen. There could be Zora from New Hyrule, but that would be a bit awkward cuz yknow how royal bloodlines be like, but I feel like it would be inevitable because there was King Zora in Labrynna (Unless it’s a different King Zora)
I wonder how New Hyrule would fair with the existence of OG Hyrule, unless they became the same kingdom over the years, but that would probs open a can of worms.
this was a fantastic video dude. ive been loving all your content, keep up the good work! hopefully this isnt weird to say, but your voice is super nice and soothing. i listened to this video while i was going to sleep last night, which was nice and peaceful and now im back to watch it again with my full attention span haha! awesome work
This theory would require Rauru’s Kingdom to have been set after the Wind Waker then, due to the presence of the Rito Sage in his era.
Yep, that's the idea. After the Great Sea receded, he refounded the Kingdom of Hyrule.
Interesting... but there was no ancient texts about the past hyrule and not even an infamous name like link was a first thing that the king of the gerudo would know about. He questioned the name once he heard it.
Or we're all going blind because they're is no Rito in TotK's past section. I think Nintendo is gaslighting us into thinking Rito existed around Ocarina of time.
I still think that the Past events of TotK/BotW occur AFTER the latest events of all the previous games. Alot of minor details would seem to support this. The known history of the Gerudo in TotK/BotW and their appearance would also imply that. OoT Gerudo have gold eyes and round ears, but in TotK/BotW, their eyes are now red and they have pointed ears... except Ganondorf who still has round ears and gold eyes. If OoT occurs after TotK/BotW past events... then OoT Gannondorf would be a much more recent occurrence in Gerudo history than TotK/BotW Gannondorf, yet the Gerudo are shamed by the current game's Gannondorf and it's because of him that they don't permit to have another male be born... instead of making any mention of OoT Gannondorf.
Yes, there are strong indications imo that the geography of BotW/TotK (which I vote we start calling the Merged Timeline) is mostly from the Adult Timeline. It also makes the most sense for the Zonai to have evolved during this timeline as well, perhaps taking to the sky to avoid the flooding of Hyrule.
i think totk really threw things for a loop, because theres a possibility of a new timeline split with time travel now being reintroduced to the series.
Pog if true.
Yes sir
Why do you still use the word pog
What is wrong with you?
@@UnreadyBelief many things
@@NotThatAxl same honestly
Enjoyed this video a lot and subscribed! looking forward to the rest of what you have already made!
Thank you!
I love that info about the Ruto crown, didn't play that game but I know of new hyrule.
Actually tbh I always wondered through if it was really a new continent or just the world just stopped being flooded and they hit the ground again, lol?
I played both games, but I had kinda forgotten about it, until the picture was showed and I was like "wait, isn't it.. oh SHIT !" and then I was hit with the realisation he explained and was like "I am an idiot sometimes..."
This man deserves more views and subs as well
There's also the possibility that Ruto is the name of the Zora sage seen in TOTK's flashbacks and Sidon claims to be a descendant from her. She is the namesake of Vah Ruta and her mask shares the attributes of the divine beast. It's also doesn't really contradict the stone tablets.
I'm of the belief that the events of TOTK's past is an alternate telling of Ocarina of Time because it exists in a branched timeline that runs parallel to OOT.
There’s better evidence for the memories to exist after all previous games and after a timeline merge, especially because there’s a lot of details to suggest Windwaker already happened, and that comes after OoT
@@c.r.blankenship9040 I can see it either way, but I'm curious, what's your support for favoring post-WW?
Why I think it's on an alt timeline (which branched from Skyward Sword):
-No mention of the Zonai in other timelines. Also the Sheikah went extinct when they are practically flourishing in 10000 prior to BOTW, and during BOTW and TOTK
-SS Link and Zelda settled the surface but did not formerly establish a new kingdom
-The springs, temples, and architecture of Skyward Sword are all still heavily featured and unchanged in BOTW/TOTK. This could be because Fujibayashi was the director on all 3 games however.
-This placement gives credence that Rauru and Sonia are the first of the Hyrulean dynasty and their unbroken lineage allowed to flourish better until Zelda who inherited their power
-I'm pretty convinced Ganondorf of OOT and TOTK are the same individual in parallel timelines. His actions are the same, and in both games he distinctly has rounded ears
-Still keeps consistency with the Zora Stone tablets which is the only recorded history
-It doesn't interfere with events and happenings of other Zelda games, this timeline may even re-join those timelines at some point
There are of course some inconsistencies to still work out but I see this as a better placement theory.
@@Axecon1 so I’m probably gonna miss something in your comment so just reiterate it if I do, and I apologize if this is a little bit scattered.
1) the maps of BotW, TotK, and the TotK memories are all the same, indicating a continuous timeline between all three games but not with Skyward Sword
2) I don’t know if Koroks ever show up in the memories but in order for the memories to be before Skyward Sword, the Koroks would have to still be the Kokiri
3) the existence of the Arbiter’s Grounds - in a more ruined state than it was in in Twilight Princess - means that this is after Twilight Princess (though I suppose this wouldn’t technically rule out the memories happening before Twilight Princess)
4) Ganondorf did reincarnate once before at the end of the child timeline, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that it happened again
5) the Hyrule compendium entries for rock salt mentio that it was left behind by the great sea
6) the best explanation for when and why the Zonai evolved in the first place is the flooding of Hyrule, though they could conceivably also be descendants of the Wind Tribe from Minish Cap - either way, can’t be between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap
6) There is a rito sage who has the same fully avian appearance just like in BotW as opposed to the more human-looking rito in Windwaker, suggesting at least a thousand years of further evolution in the intervening time
7) the female Gerudo in the memories have pointed ears, which places them a considerable time after Ocarina
I think there’s more, but I can’t think of it right now
@@c.r.blankenship9040 Thanks for sharing! I'm curious if we'll get answers in the DLC or future Zelda games but for now I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of debate on the timeline placement for years to come
That's some good Gossip.
While I subscribe to BotW / TotK being a reboot, you raise some good points here. I personally think that Ruto mentioned in TotK is the name of the ancient sage who confirms that Sidon is her descendant. I know that the 10,000 years part muddles things a bit, but we don't know how long the cycles of Calamity occurred in the ancient past, and there is no guarantee that they took 10,000 years each.
I'm not sure if you watched my video on the Sheikah Technology GG, but I speculated that the Sheikah created shrines of their own because Malice was building so rapidly that they basically had to double down on what the Shrines of Light were doing. They created their own, and then in an epic battle with a mechanical army supporting the current Princess and the Hero, they fought and defeated the Calamity. Their victory was so successful, their methods of mitigation so effective, that the Calamity would take 10,000 years to resurface... thus past of BotW.
I like your work, we should talk more.
Pretty interesting theory you got there yourself. If you REALLY want a mind boggler, you should rewatch the intro story of Spirit Tracks knowing full well what we know now about TotK. The similarities are incredible.
12:45 i don't think it is a contradiction, it is merely the founding of a city, not the first introduction of the race to the area. Actually, now I think about it, Ganon might have destroyed the Zora's towns and so they went off and founded the city of Zora's Domain.
True, the original calamity from that time might not have gone peacefully
I know it's a silly detail, but King Rauru literally has body proportions like both the Rito and Zora,
It's pretty clear the developers meant for this game to look like it takes place in the Wind Waker timeline, mostly by design choice.
This shouldn’t have been interpreted as a lore conflict. Divergent evolution is well-established, so it is perfectly possible that some Zora evolved into Rito whilst others did not.
There was no contradiction by the Rito and Zora existing simultaneously, unless we were told that *all* Zora evolved into Rito (but we could also chalk that up to unreliable narrators).
Still, I enjoyed your exploration of the supposed conflict! Thanks for making this video 🙂
Ah, the theory is that a wave of enemy entering your domain, as the result you must go to harsher place to survive and get changed in the process to adapting, but some of your kind stay and some also go to new place but still bring your kind's old tradition and then make a nation that similiar to your old homeland, while you make a new nation that's almost 180° different from what your old kingdom looks like
Well done here! Excellent research 😎
Very well made video man, your editing is amazing
This answers the zora rito issue, now if only someone could explain how ganondorf has been sealed underneath Hyrule Castle since the founding of Hyrule, if the last 2 titles are to be after all of the previous titles how has he been left undisturbed through all of the events of those games. I don't see how he could be down there during oot after what happened to Hyrule Castle. Think we need to deal with the elephant in the room before we claim a possible reboot
He's a heavy sleeper I suppose. The man needs his beauty nap, I mean look at those wrinkles in TotK!
@@GossipGeist thing that is missing is that males in the gerudo is suppose to be born every 100 years but in botw it has been over 10k years from what we hear on a male being born in the race
Short answer: Hyrule was refounded. The map of the Imprisoning War's world is the same as BotW and 10 000 years ago. The other games have different maps but Ancient Hyrule having the same as BotW proves that they took place consecutively, not before any of the other games. Other things prove this as well. The Zonai rulers calling the Phantom Ganon armor ancient to them or the Imprisoning War being a documented part of Hyrule's history (Therefore not part of the era of myth) means that the other games took place before.
@Defender1876 My Theory about that is the the Gerudo Women keep evert male born a heavy secret. They may feel that it may incite fear in Hyrule since they know the calamity was once a Gerudo Male. A more morbid theory is that they straight up kill every male at birth. Though, I highly doubt Nintendo would make that Canon.
Hm well the issue with Ganon is simple. He is put on a life and death needle which could imply that the Ganondorf did restart the curse but once calamity broke out (or the past battles did) it would weaken the seal. We also have to take I to a fact that almost every Ganondorf before or after was attracted to his body, aka under hyrule. They usually go towards hyrule all the time.
Found myself back to this video, again. It just draws me back in to rewatch it.
It doesn't make sense. These games are simply made by people who don't remember, don't care or deliberately create this things to have people talk about it.
The theory's coming from this are usually pretty interesting and cool to think about.
Also,
we have some ocean creatures on earth, that evolved from land animals, who came from the ocean.
So it is not impossible. Since all life comes form the ocean, so do all birds.
I'm still a big fan of MatPat's Hyrule Warriors theory, which implies that it is the game before BotW that reunites the timelines,, thus explaining why Rito and Zora coexist in the game, as well as explaining why the divine beasts are named after Medli and Ruto.
in multiple asian languages, "10,000" can be non-literal and instead mean "hundreds upon hundreds", as in, "an amount so big, it's uncountable". So when Doraphan's tablet says "Thus, as the legends go, the domain was born 10,000 years ago", the intent could've instead been "the domain was born hundreds upon hundreds of years ago". So you can take instances of the number "10,000" with a grain of salt.
Very Informative, hope this video blows up! Earned my sub ^^
Tf did my husband do?😳🤔
The opening of your channel introduction using the classic sounds and looks was more than enough to make me subscribe you now that I have found you
Some of this I agree with. I don't agree with the "dead sages" theory. For one thing, they are shown to be very much alive at the end of Ocarina of Time. They lack any of the usual Zelda depictions of ghosts whether they be friend or enemy.
Well, the Satori is a dead sage, technically. I can’t remember where I saw it in Tears Of the Kingdom, but there was something about a story of a Sage that fought til his last breath, where it had died on Satori Mountain, becoming the guardian of the mountain after death.
Dang I made a Zora Race a few years ago but struggled with backstory. This gives me new inspiration since I didn't understand much about Wind Waker