The best step you made in diagnosing the problem is admitting you could have made a mistake. One mistake people often make is saying “it can’t do that or that’s impossible”. You stated you have experienced weird or strange circumstances. An open mind leads to endless possibilities(and solutions).Pretty sure someone said that.
To answer your question.. When doing my second manual swap on a C55 AMG, I got impatient and tried to suck the trans in with a few bolts, all was going smooth until it didn't.. Snapped the lower oil pan and needless to say, the engine came out for a refresh lol... was a rookie mistake and definitely a live and learn moment! These 65 platforms are sooo complex, it takes a very fine tooth to comb through and diagnose. Working on cars with tricky issues can be extremely defeating at times, but if you allow yourself to be open to any possible reason for the issues faced, it makes it a lot easier as to not overlook even the smallest details. Your a fantastic mechanic and thinker and it's awesome to hear your insight and routes taken.
I used to have a 2006 S65 AMG. I had an engine and TCU tune from Eurocharged on stock turbo with custom 3" mandrel bend stainless pipes through an X-pipe then Vibrant 3" in straight through rear box muffler with dual 3" rear tips. We hollowed out the stock converters and installed 100 CPI 5" converters instead. I also installed Go Fast Bits Electronic Boost Controller kit to modulate the pressure going to the wastegates to get higher boost. My max boost pressure I saw on my boost controller was 28 psi as it has a max boost display hold for 3 seconds after you let off each time. I mounted the display controller unit right on my steering column in front of the dashboard. I had the car dyno and it put down 590 hp, 797 tq on a Mustang Dyno. The TCU tune actually helped unleashed additional torque since that's where the torque limiter settings resides as I was told by my tuner.
If it's a Bosch ECU it's torque based and there are a bunch of tables determining the torque output. If there is a driver demand torque tables try adding 20 to the top row and see if that helps. Also add more torque in the areas that pertain to allowed engine torque. Then go check duty cycle on the wastegate solenoid. It is commanding your boost. So the first thing is driver demand. Aka pedal. Then the lookup for how much power it's allowed. Then it will look in the virtual torque tables and see how much boost and or throttle angle to give you. This happens every millisecond.
Yea. That’s the go to. Once we rectified the boost issues with the wastegate nothing changed in 9 files and 40 dyno runs. Tuner and the turbo manufacturer agree that the wastegates ate most likely being pushed open.
What is wastegate duty cycle doing during runs. Is it 100 percent? If so then yes it's pushing them open. If not then it is tune related. Or hard limits in the ECU you don't have access to tables. @@FluidMotorUnion
Hi guys. Before you drop that engine... I have a CL65 with a bunch of old Speedriven goodies. My turbos are not as big as those hybrids, but they are larger than SL65 black series. Since the wastegates are actuated by that solenoid, you need to consider adding a manual boost controller. That is how I'm able to run bigger turbos on mine and not have wastegate issues. If it comes to it, I'm a couple hours away in Ohio and am willing to send pictures, videos, whatever to use my car as reference for this repair. Good luck!
Verify that the waste gate solenoid is holding boost or vacuum, unplugged it shouldn’t allow anything through, my guess is that its partially open and working off manifold pressure. What it should be doing is staying closed untill requested boost is achieved thwn opening. As far as setting wastegate pressure is known on the b5s4 most tuners are telling guys to set it at 9psi and they take care of the rest (up to 20PSI+) with the WG solenoid and there are lots of amateur mechanics setting up wastegate pressure on their own. If you want someone to talk to i’d ask Tunezilla or Blake Beadie at ETS Spec about your turbo issues, you probably don’t need to pull the engine again if you can adjust the waste gates and pressurize them in car.
Was looking forward to this Mercedes update. Thanks for bringing it back en educate us! Also good to see the channel is growing slowly but sure! Its great content OJ! Have a great Christmas everyone 🌲⛄❄️
12:12 "26 or 27 psi before it stopped moving, I don't know if the car is set to that". The car isn't running, do you know how a boost control solenoid even works? If it's not activated (duty cycle) those turbos should be opening at base (wastegate) pressure. You are correct, however, that they should be set to the same pressure. I would check that the wastegate flaps are fully seated and sealed when not actuated.
Edit: watched further and because the nuts had fallen off they were flapping in the wind, so basically wide open, no wonder it wasn't making boost. I would simply find the base pressure spec and set both of them to that through trial and error by testing.
You need to unplug the wastegate vacuum hose and block it off at the hose end. At the wastegate side leave it open to atmosphere that should give you double the spring pressure if you have a 5 psi spring you will get 10-15psi with it unplugged
You are right in effect but not in description. You are essentially only leaving the force of the spring to hold down the wastegate with no relief for boost control. So it might go higher than double… it goes as much boost as the compressor impeller can produce… Which in this case is 15 psi because the pressure in the exhaust manifold is greater than the boost it’s producing- thus pushing the arm open.
Plugs gapped correctly for increased boost ? You probably know this but tuning many times leads to ignition issues on these cars. My sl600 fried every ignition component shortly after tuning A fusable transformer might be a good investment
Gen 3 LS knock sensors, I've gone through 6 this year. Apparently, it is a common problem where brand new sensors are throwing low voltage codes, even oem sensors. The sensors are located under the intake manifold. My car has been in perpetual limp mode this whole year.
I've seen clogged cats not allow the turbos to spool enough to hit target boost. May need to put larger diameter cats on it or 200cell or delete is always nice lol
I've had some ecu go crazy into limp mode when it detect intercooler temp is alot lower than ambient iat temp I have tuned some cars where this was the case and have used the same vcm hpt dataloging software to notice this. One car I had to fabricate the iat sensor into the post intercooler pipe to make it think ambient was ice cold to not go into limp mode. The ecu will assume the charge air temp is bad and reading wrong because it does not correlate with iat temp and will drop boost pull timing to go into a safe mode because it thinks the charge air temp sensor is bad and will even throw a code sometimes for temp sensor. Another thing you can do is add resistor to iat or ambient sensor on the front bumper to make ecu think it's alot colder outside than it actually is
First thing I would do is unhook boost lines from the wastegates, and try to make a low rpm pull u till turbos start to cook, if I get my wastegates open at cetrain(lower boost than I want) I'd search for new wastegate valves which have higher rated spring. Your EMAP basically controlling safety aspect of opening the wastegate.
Usually you set the waste gets to 6 to 7 of psi look up the factory MB specs you want to set the waste gates to start moving set them up the same and at 6 psi fully closed at the same rate!
Sounds like you need external wastegates which would be difficult and require more fabrication in tight confines. I hope not. When you get it corrected I'd love to see Alex's cl65 amg reach it's full potential as well!
I dont trust the gauges sometimes. I would put a boost gauge sensor before the intake somewhere. See if it reads correctly. Eliminate that issue Wastegate problem I would for sure check the oem one outside and simulate putting more boost in it than its designed to do! If its giving you issues theres the issue. I Also would like to know what size turbines are they ? Maybe the exhaust is getting restricted by a not so big of a turbine wheel that its choking the engine up top! Biggest thing I realized when I put a bigger turbine wheel on my car is that the power was coming a little later but the boost was staying almost all the way up top!
I’m not really great with turbos but could it be a possibility that maybe the turbo is defective. Not doing its full potential? Idk if what I’m saying sounds stupid but maybe there’s something with the turbo itself
the amount of "question" about the wg working properly and the lack of professional web domain for that turbo company makes me think theyre selling chinese turbos and didnt know their low quality wg wouldnt work. i HIGHLY suggest you guys call Forced Performance out of north Texas. Theyve been doing hybrid turbos since the beginning. I am not affiliated and get nothing from telling you this other than the satisfaction that i have maybe opened a door for both companies.
Very interesting diagnoses thoughts. I'm about to embark on a C32 AMG build adding twin turbo's from a C43 compounding into the stock pullied supercharger, we doing Forced Induction Interchiller, single pass intercooler post supercharger, E85 Flexfuel and Haltech ECU.
@@hexagonosaurus5848 Most likely but we want to produce exhaust manifold adaptors for M112 engines to suit these factory compact turbos and make it look stockish. If it doesn't work out we'll go aftermarket turbo's.
Real world wrench turning world. And every minute of head scratching cost the customer, the tech,more than anyone the shop owner. Unless, of course it's a greedy dirtbag shop that will get the rep it deserves.
The best step you made in diagnosing the problem is admitting you could have made a mistake. One mistake people often make is saying “it can’t do that or that’s impossible”. You stated you have experienced weird or strange circumstances. An open mind leads to endless possibilities(and solutions).Pretty sure someone said that.
It's always a good lesson to learn that there's always room for error.
To answer your question.. When doing my second manual swap on a C55 AMG, I got impatient and tried to suck the trans in with a few bolts, all was going smooth until it didn't.. Snapped the lower oil pan and needless to say, the engine came out for a refresh lol... was a rookie mistake and definitely a live and learn moment! These 65 platforms are sooo complex, it takes a very fine tooth to comb through and diagnose. Working on cars with tricky issues can be extremely defeating at times, but if you allow yourself to be open to any possible reason for the issues faced, it makes it a lot easier as to not overlook even the smallest details. Your a fantastic mechanic and thinker and it's awesome to hear your insight and routes taken.
Man, the long road to getting these turbos right sounds......
exhausting
It is, but I'm determined to get this right!
Cut!!!!! 13:50😆
I used to have a 2006 S65 AMG. I had an engine and TCU tune from Eurocharged on stock turbo with custom 3" mandrel bend stainless pipes through an X-pipe then Vibrant 3" in straight through rear box muffler with dual 3" rear tips. We hollowed out the stock converters and installed 100 CPI 5" converters instead. I also installed Go Fast Bits Electronic Boost Controller kit to modulate the pressure going to the wastegates to get higher boost. My max boost pressure I saw on my boost controller was 28 psi as it has a max boost display hold for 3 seconds after you let off each time. I mounted the display controller unit right on my steering column in front of the dashboard. I had the car dyno and it put down 590 hp, 797 tq on a Mustang Dyno. The TCU tune actually helped unleashed additional torque since that's where the torque limiter settings resides as I was told by my tuner.
If it's a Bosch ECU it's torque based and there are a bunch of tables determining the torque output. If there is a driver demand torque tables try adding 20 to the top row and see if that helps. Also add more torque in the areas that pertain to allowed engine torque. Then go check duty cycle on the wastegate solenoid. It is commanding your boost. So the first thing is driver demand. Aka pedal. Then the lookup for how much power it's allowed. Then it will look in the virtual torque tables and see how much boost and or throttle angle to give you. This happens every millisecond.
I hope they know that! Torque on these cars doesnt get unleashed until 3 or 4th gear, If I remember correctly first gear gets 500nm
Yea. That’s the go to. Once we rectified the boost issues with the wastegate nothing changed in 9 files and 40 dyno runs. Tuner and the turbo manufacturer agree that the wastegates ate most likely being pushed open.
What is wastegate duty cycle doing during runs. Is it 100 percent? If so then yes it's pushing them open. If not then it is tune related. Or hard limits in the ECU you don't have access to tables. @@FluidMotorUnion
Hi guys. Before you drop that engine... I have a CL65 with a bunch of old Speedriven goodies. My turbos are not as big as those hybrids, but they are larger than SL65 black series. Since the wastegates are actuated by that solenoid, you need to consider adding a manual boost controller. That is how I'm able to run bigger turbos on mine and not have wastegate issues. If it comes to it, I'm a couple hours away in Ohio and am willing to send pictures, videos, whatever to use my car as reference for this repair. Good luck!
LS swapping an rx8 from my wheelchair mostly by myself would be my biggest challenge so far.
Good luck with your build!
@ 14:00😂
Verify that the waste gate solenoid is holding boost or vacuum, unplugged it shouldn’t allow anything through, my guess is that its partially open and working off manifold pressure. What it should be doing is staying closed untill requested boost is achieved thwn opening.
As far as setting wastegate pressure is known on the b5s4 most tuners are telling guys to set it at 9psi and they take care of the rest (up to 20PSI+) with the WG solenoid and there are lots of amateur mechanics setting up wastegate pressure on their own. If you want someone to talk to i’d ask Tunezilla or Blake Beadie at ETS Spec about your turbo issues, you probably don’t need to pull the engine again if you can adjust the waste gates and pressurize them in car.
Was looking forward to this Mercedes update. Thanks for bringing it back en educate us!
Also good to see the channel is growing slowly but sure! Its great content OJ! Have a great Christmas everyone 🌲⛄❄️
This was the video I was looking for from you guys! Awesome. More of this!
glad you liked it...more to come!
12:12 "26 or 27 psi before it stopped moving, I don't know if the car is set to that".
The car isn't running, do you know how a boost control solenoid even works? If it's not activated (duty cycle) those turbos should be opening at base (wastegate) pressure. You are correct, however, that they should be set to the same pressure. I would check that the wastegate flaps are fully seated and sealed when not actuated.
Edit: watched further and because the nuts had fallen off they were flapping in the wind, so basically wide open, no wonder it wasn't making boost. I would simply find the base pressure spec and set both of them to that through trial and error by testing.
You need to unplug the wastegate vacuum hose and block it off at the hose end. At the wastegate side leave it open to atmosphere that should give you double the spring pressure if you have a 5 psi spring you will get 10-15psi with it unplugged
You are right in effect but not in description. You are essentially only leaving the force of the spring to hold down the wastegate with no relief for boost control. So it might go higher than double… it goes as much boost as the compressor impeller can produce…
Which in this case is 15 psi because the pressure in the exhaust manifold is greater than the boost it’s producing- thus pushing the arm open.
What a project! Keep up the good work 👍
Hope you guys figure this out. As a cl65 owner you'll have a future customer once I see these hurdles cleared 👍🏿
Appreciate it! We’re on the right track.
I recall the spec on these cars being 1.4 bar for boost
Great series, can't wait to see the resolution.
we can't wait to get there
Plugs gapped correctly for increased boost ? You probably know this but tuning many times leads to ignition issues on these cars. My sl600 fried every ignition component shortly after tuning A fusable transformer might be a good investment
It’s not cutting. Smooth power delivery, Just not hitting target boost. Plugs were gapped to .028 when we first did the turbos.
Gen 3 LS knock sensors, I've gone through 6 this year. Apparently, it is a common problem where brand new sensors are throwing low voltage codes, even oem sensors. The sensors are located under the intake manifold. My car has been in perpetual limp mode this whole year.
Biggest obstacle is tuning options for the w211 m113k.
I've seen clogged cats not allow the turbos to spool enough to hit target boost. May need to put larger diameter cats on it or 200cell or delete is always nice lol
I've had some ecu go crazy into limp mode when it detect intercooler temp is alot lower than ambient iat temp I have tuned some cars where this was the case and have used the same vcm hpt dataloging software to notice this. One car I had to fabricate the iat sensor into the post intercooler pipe to make it think ambient was ice cold to not go into limp mode. The ecu will assume the charge air temp is bad and reading wrong because it does not correlate with iat temp and will drop boost pull timing to go into a safe mode because it thinks the charge air temp sensor is bad and will even throw a code sometimes for temp sensor. Another thing you can do is add resistor to iat or ambient sensor on the front bumper to make ecu think it's alot colder outside than it actually is
“Damnit Grandma”
First thing I would do is unhook boost lines from the wastegates, and try to make a low rpm pull u till turbos start to cook, if I get my wastegates open at cetrain(lower boost than I want) I'd search for new wastegate valves which have higher rated spring.
Your EMAP basically controlling safety aspect of opening the wastegate.
This sounds familiar… Alex was having issues with this engine in his whip…
The company said tying them can turns to get 15 PSI do another 10 trance and maybe you get 20 psi before you take them out it's worth a try.
This video covers 3 of those adjustments. 2 of those produced no increase past 15
@FluidMotorUnion yeah change the wastegate. Get turbosmart 👍👍👍
How about opening the wastegates and putting thougher springs in?
Good explaining. Hope for a solution!
us too!
i look forward to seeing the next video on how this plays out
Usually you set the waste gets to 6 to 7 of psi look up the factory MB specs you want to set the waste gates to start moving set them up the same and at 6 psi fully closed at the same rate!
Sounds like you need external wastegates which would be difficult and require more fabrication in tight confines. I hope not. When you get it corrected I'd love to see Alex's cl65 amg reach it's full potential as well!
I dont trust the gauges sometimes. I would put a boost gauge sensor before the intake somewhere. See if it reads correctly. Eliminate that issue
Wastegate problem I would for sure check the oem one outside and simulate putting more boost in it than its designed to do! If its giving you issues theres the issue. I Also would like to know what size turbines are they ? Maybe the exhaust is getting restricted by a not so big of a turbine wheel that its choking the engine up top! Biggest thing I realized when I put a bigger turbine wheel on my car is that the power was coming a little later but the boost was staying almost all the way up top!
Love it!
Do You have to much back-pressure with rear housings being to small?
Essentially… yes. That’s what would cause the wastegates to push open.
@@FluidMotorUnionYour a honest team and always find a solution can't wait to see what happens.
Always enjoy you video 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻🇬🇧
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Is the trans tuned or converter upgraded? If there is too much slip it will pull timing/boost
I’m not really great with turbos but could it be a possibility that maybe the turbo is defective. Not doing its full potential? Idk if what I’m saying sounds stupid but maybe there’s something with the turbo itself
the amount of "question" about the wg working properly and the lack of professional web domain for that turbo company makes me think theyre selling chinese turbos and didnt know their low quality wg wouldnt work.
i HIGHLY suggest you guys call Forced Performance out of north Texas. Theyve been doing hybrid turbos since the beginning. I am not affiliated and get nothing from telling you this other than the satisfaction that i have maybe opened a door for both companies.
What's the ECU? I assume a Bosch MEx?
Is the ECU mapping on par?
Seems like V12s are mad troublesome. I don't get it. Are there any restrictions anywhere?
Hope you figure it out!
so do we and the customer especially
Why not load a different tune from a different tuner and see if it makes a difference.
3 tuners were involved on this one. All sane result.
What about weistech engineering asv
Pull 5* and weld the wastegates shut
The biggest hurdle in building my own cars is being POOR!!!!!!
Being poor can create a hurdle to putting food on the table.
whatcha doin' with that Elise??
just maintenance
Very interesting diagnoses thoughts. I'm about to embark on a C32 AMG build adding twin turbo's from a C43 compounding into the stock pullied supercharger, we doing Forced Induction Interchiller, single pass intercooler post supercharger, E85 Flexfuel and Haltech ECU.
And the funniest thing is that a single turbo will make more power more reliably.
@@hexagonosaurus5848 Most likely but we want to produce exhaust manifold adaptors for M112 engines to suit these factory compact turbos and make it look stockish. If it doesn't work out we'll go aftermarket turbo's.
Sounds like she’s just a factory turtle you might want to look at internals that wear without noise
Algorithm comment 💪
Oh hey there Windows 7! 😅
Hi.
😁
Is this a kids show!?
Yes, Saturday morning cartoons
My hardest part is hiding the part from the wife
Real world wrench turning world. And every minute of head scratching cost the customer, the tech,more than anyone the shop owner. Unless, of course it's a greedy dirtbag shop that will get the rep it deserves.
We are not a greedy dirtbag shop and you can trust that we are doing everything we can to help our customer and a lot of it on our time
Bro, you're too afraid to touch the wastegate 😂. You call yourself a mechanic shop? Stick to bodybuilding.
You get that way after you drop the engine a second time on the shops dime to adjust a w12 Bentley…
I know what's wrong with it. OJ parked it near Alex from LSC'S v12 turbo Mercedes, and now it's got v12 cooties 🤦🏼♂️🤣
@WeistecTV