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If you notice before Wesley interrupted, Faith was actually listening to Angel. Makes you wonder if Angel had more time, could he actually help her🤨
He definitely could have, but he was also projecting a bit of himself on her.
Xander was saying no too. She technically sexually assaulted him before trying to kill him. Super dark.
Not technically, she absolutely did sexually assault him. Both the overt actions and the fact that strangling itself is considered a psycho-sexual style of attack in murderers. It always bugged me the show writers focused on the strangling and not the assault because most media doesn't consider men assault-able by women (it happens a lot in a lot of shows) when in reality Xander would be really messed up by this attack.
The only sign of the show taking it even a little seriously is how seriously Angel took the attack as a sign of a budding serial murderer when many people watching think he's overreacting. Her background coupled with her actions and her ability to overpower people are a very common recipe found in real serial killers (not the slayer strength of course, but the ability to overpower victims.) If I was Angel, I would want to get ahead of that even at the risk of over-reacting.
(Also not blaming reactors for missing this at all! Most people don't think of it due to a lifetime of the same messaging about men and assault. The trick is to switch the genders and see how you would feel in that case, especially with the aggressor having superhuman strength.)
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_buffy_ season 6 is the highpoint of this hypocrisy, where spike dramatically sexually assaults buffy eight episodes after her sexually assaulting him is played for laughs.
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i don't object to the two of them getting together, even after mistreating each other terribly. the relationship always felt much more equal, and made much more sense to me, than buffy's relationship with angel. it's the way the show frames things that i take issue with. but then, for a show that i love so dearly, _buffy_ is guilty of problematic framing surprisingly often. i trace the issue all the way back at least to _bewitched, bothered, and bewildered_ where xander gets some seriously undeserved credit from both buffy and cordelia and doesn't end up in trouble with anyone but giles.
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he won her over. that's still a thing. not every couple decide to get together at the same moment.
Really glad to see this comment thread dealing with it in mature fashion.
I think even now some viewers struggle to recognise the reality of it, but back then it was even MORE alien a concept. The fact the show dealt with it AT ALL puts it SO far ahead that I don't think another show has done better. The "less serious" (or even comedic) playing of it is something I feel inevitable to avoid the backlash. And there WOULD be backlash. Even *talking* about real world sexual assault and rape of men by women can get you labelled misogynist (this IS getting better, but these are issues I've discussed vocally for decades and the level of vitriol from people who you would HOPE know better is often unbelievable)
Spoiler:..... SERIOUS spoiler. Do NOT read past if you have not watched all of S6.
The S6 arch for Spuffy is so much better than people want to credit.
It's a mutually toxic, mutually abusive relationship that Buffy herself admits is killing her.
She HATES herself for using him, for feeling for him AND for abusing him.
Even with Buffy straight up saying this, much of the audience remains in denial. Seeing Red was the result of a toxic relationship spinning out of control. That's not an excuse, it's a VERY mature telling of VERY REAL problems that happen to REAL people. It's SUCH an important story to tell, and I understand why the actors struggled with it... but that's art. Sometimes art hurts.
So many people jump on the "it's unforgivable" bandwagon despite Buffy literally beating the hell out of Spike their first time and NEVER caring about his consent (he had to bodily throw her out during "Gone") but ALSO the fact that Spike murdered people throughout the show and detailed his past crimes that were FAR worse than his attempted assault of Buffy that HE stopped. (In his next scene he is literally questioning himself as to why he stopped. As strong as Buffy is, as much as she ALSO fought him off, he CHOSE to leave. Even soulless, even with their history of violence leading to sex, even with Buffy's constant protestations giving way to enthusiastic participation... he could see it wasn't right. That's immense)
Their S7 interactions about their past relationship makes this all even better.
I just wish more viewers would TAKE these lessons. The allegories are clear.
One really good interpretation of what's going on in the scene between Angel and Faith is to see it as an alcoholic and sponsor kinda thing. I'm pretty sure it's intended by the writers. Angel always has the temptation to DRINK inside of him.
Passion of the nerd's episode guides will explain it to you much better than me when you finish the shows but yeah it's interesting to keep this metaphor in mind for the future.
if we extend that metaphor just a bit more, it leads to: Angel is a really mean ugly drunk
@@RLucas3000 yes.
Buffy: "I hate it when they drown me." Buffy has lingering trauma...
When she died, she fell into that nasty puddle underground and once again, she's being drowned in some nasty sewer water. 🤢But maybe in the dream, it's cleaner lol
The Deputy Mayor definitely was betraying the Mayor. A couple scenes before he is killed, the Deputy Mayor suggested that the Mayor delays the ritual. Then after that was rejected, he is in a street alley a block away from the mayor's sworn enemy, Balthazar.
@Peter from NZ This is a great observation. I hadn't made this connection.
“I don’t want an episode off”. Said about one of the most beloved episodes in the Buffy cannon.
"I am so biased". Yeah the rest of us fans dont play favorites, we are just fully objective. *cough*.
Faith does the perfect thing to do when you know about either an open job position or a free appartment before everyone else because of the knowledge that the former employee or tenant is dead.
It´s totally normal to be upset when you realise that the person you once loved slept with someone else, even if you are in a new (healthy) relationship. It doesn´t mean Willow likes Oz any less. It doesn´t mean she wants to be with Xander. She just had imagined things differenetly for a very long time. Furthermore she was in love with him her whole life and he sleeps with Faith of all people (and it was his first time)! So yeah, she´s allowed to be upset!
Faith's walls are too strong here, issues are MANY, and the gang may have broken through eventually if the Council hadn't interfered. 😢 But yes Wes is still very dedicated to the Council. Great intense character ep, love the mess everyone is in.
lmao the confusion with what you know on Angel. Hang in there and no worries hahaha.
Seeing Angel in the library is nostalgic, awww...
You are conflicted about Faith.
Faith is conflicted about herself too, but won't admit it to herself.
I grew up with enough people like her that I can definitely confirm that. The ones that survive always look back on it with a certain amount of trauma. They're just too young for what they were getting into as their brains weren't developed enough. It's a pretty ugly reaction.
I love this episode, rich and so well built
Also you are Adorable. Some of those comments had me chuckling.
I think Willow crying isn’t because she still wants Xander but that Faith took Buffy from her for a while and now she’s taken Xander away. She feels like Faith has taken her best friends away from her.
I can't imagine being nearly raped and murdered only to be saved by the person you irrationally hate the most. I mean let's be honest, Angels way beyond Buffy for Xander, he's practically the Nexus for the problems in his life because he just doesn't know how to deal with them. Now we just have this piled on? I feel so awful for him.
Yes I think Angel may have read it correctly. Most people probably won't understand this, but if you grow up and gang culture, you'll get it. When you kill someone the trauma spills into an addiction sometimes. Not sure if this is true because it's history channel but, There was a story about the real Zorro. If it is accurate It describes something similar He started out trying to protect and get vengeance on the people that stole his home and raped his wife, eventually he became addicted to the process of just killing people and abandon the wife he was supposed to be there for. I don't think he was a bad person to begin with. Not everyone has that reaction. But the way she was sitting on top of Xander suggests it has become a drug for her and you can see the fear as well, of facing it, which is what getting caught would actually do, force her to face it. It just messes with you to kill. The girl needs some serious therapy fast.
I loved this episode! And that ENDING? Iconic Buffy moment :D
We love many people in our lives in many different ways depending on our relationships with them. People can have multiple grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles, siblings, cousins, children, friends, and love them all equally. The difference is that they are different individuals. Simply because love is romantic in nature doesn't mean that the rules suddenly change. It's possible to have romantic feelings for more than one person at a time. If it's okay to act on them or not depends on the people involved and what they are comfortable with. Simply put, respect your partner(s). One of the most beautiful things about love it that it's limitless.
I literally can't make a sensible comment without spoiling, so I will only say "buckle up!" Season 3 was when, in my opinion, the show hit its stride. It will continue to get better. Hopefully that entices rather than spoils.
“oi?” hahahaha
spontaneity at its finest ❤️
18:45 I don't think Faith would have killed Xander, I think she was merely making a point.
I watched this soooooo many times and just realized how packed this episode is and how intense this really must be the first time around. Cause my first round with season 3 was probably when I was 14^^
Honey, you saw Angel? Remember how she turned up there?
Faith, Cordelia and Westley are some of the most complex characters or some who more change over the seasons and shows, so it's soooo interesting to see a viewer with this fresh perspective, where you know how they are going to be, but not how did that became that way. You have an amazing journey to live with those characters!
Passion of the Nerd has a video essay on this episode and goes into depth about how Willow is still hurt, irrationally about Xander losing his virginity with someone else even if she doesn't want to be with him.
I always interpreted Willow crying, not because she is in love with Xander, but because he got to experience something intimate with Faith, something that even tough she doesn`t want now, she wanted at some point and hasn`t experienced herself with Oz yet. She felt through these episodes that Faith took away Buffy`s friendship and Xander`s attention.
I always saw the the scene as Willow crying over her sense is self worth...so sad...it still touches me.
It was observant to say that Faith was spiraling. Really she has been on a slow burn spiral for a long time, and the accidental killing of Alan tipped her over the edge, and now she is in full free-fall.
Domi, how much of Faith's storyline do you remember from the Angel episodes you watched? I assume you saw her in Season 4 of Angel?
@@alanedark1538 She has seen Seasons 4 and 5.
@@Brian-xf4sh if she saw 4 and 5 why does she like Cordelia? I’m guessing she saw S3
Faith is going through alot and feels alone but angel is the only one that get to her, saves her but you got to see that later. She lost so much.
You're observant and intelligent. Love your reactions.
Scooby tried to help her, Buffy, Xander, Angel, but she lied, didn't show she has regrets, and raped Xander... Even we can have sympathy for her and like we can't blame the Scooby to not care about her
Oi indeed!
The outtakes in season 3 r good. Better than season 4, which are nonexistent.
Yeah even though Angel got closer than anyone else to getting through to Faith, I definitely think he was projecting *hard* in his scene with her. Faith's slayer-ness might make her enjoy violence more than the average person, but it's not the same as the "taste" for killing that, say, a vampire with a soul might struggle with lol
I know, she doesn't have a "taste" like he was saying lol she does have even more self-loathing though
Although every Buffy (and Angel) episode came from a team effort of every available writer (except the one who's writing the previous one) this one was written by one of the best Buffy writers, Marti Noxon, and everyday we have good reasons to talk about Marti :-)
Faith is relatable...in loving and hating...she's a great character...
Yep. I guess thats why the writers had a sort of a free reign with her character.
"Oy!"
😂🤣
Your ability to deny reality is truly at Ultra Instinct level. First with not being able to grasp that Jenny was dead and now, being unable to accept that Faith has crossed over to the dark side. A word of advice, do the best you can with the information you have. If you're wrong, you can always change your mind later. Constantly changing your mind based on the facts is better than denying reality, just saying.
Oi rsrs
Don’t agree with the watcher’s council attempting to kidnap Faith.
We don't know exactly what Wesley told them. Depending on how he worded it, it was absolutely the right call on their part. I do think that Wesley absolutely made the wrong call, specifically in not listening to Giles.
@@kg4wwn The Watcher's Council has no jurisdiction here. At this point Faith belongs in prison, but she still has a right to defend herself in court.
Besides, I don't trust the Council. It wouldn't surprise me if they planned on killing Faith once they got to England.
@@Spalove The Watcher's Council's Jurisdiction is a weird legal matter. From a purely legal perspective, Buffy is probably a mass murderer because at least all the vamps she staked that were never declared legally dead would constitute murder.
While I can't say much without spoilers, there is an argument to make that the Council is the only authority that could have jurisdiction in this matter, or another argument that would require spoilers against it.
In general though, I think the question of Jurisdiction comes down to who, exactly is the most legitimate authority in this question, and in this case it would be the city police, who legally report to the Mayor...
Oh I wanna say things... I´m not gonna say things tho :)
I understand your confliction with Faith. I love her character too, but this doesn't look good for her at all.
Oi? lol
Leave Willow alone.
~~~~*EARLY 'ANGEL' SPOILER*~~~~
I think Wesley appears in episode 10 or 11 of Angel's first season, he is certainly not there at the beginning of the season, but he is by the end. Angel's first sidekick fancies Cordelia, but it is not reciprocated initially. Once you get to Angel and they're not in high school any more, they pretty much ignore issues of age. I won't spoil any more, now.
Shock so bad you switch to PT-BR lmao
Oi?!?!?
A lot of people are bringing their own baggage to the comment section.
It is okay for people to feel the way that they do, but this episode was a nuanced one, there is a lot to be upset about. For those noble warriors here to tell everyone how to respond and feel.
Multiple things can be true at the same time.
For the #bros, this is not your chance to get back at all females, because of the #MeToo movement, instead of using this moment to prove, that women do bad things, how about working on #empathy and #compassion for them, when Xander Harris is not involved?
n65
vur.fyi
Oi!