I have a relative who has a fair bit of background in Chinese history - according to him, the cup is to keep the scabbard in place. Note how the scabbard opening for the ox tail dao is quite wide to accommodate the wider front end of the blade. If the guard is not cupped, the more narrow part of the blade near the hilt would slide back and forth within the opening, hence dulling the blade as well as making the fit less secure. The cup essentially locks the scabbard in place.
That's basically what I was thinking, except I figured it worked to better seal the scabbard from weather elements. It makes sense that it would work competently for both better fitting the sword securely in the scabbard and protecting the sheathed sword from weather elements.
@asdrubale bisanzio no it's the main character so they'll catch all of them so precisely that they all land on one spot and split the previous arrow Robin hood style
@@thisaccountisntreal107 no need to catch them at all, just bash them out of the air while spinning, and don't forget to split the last shaft such that its halves pass you left and right.
Considering that the blade is wider towards the tip, the guard might also keep the scabbard from rattling against the narrow width at the base of the blade. I think all proposed ideas are correct because it seems like a simple solution that does a decent job at many different things. Kinda genius really.
Nice idea! Bryn, yours may not rattle, but considering these would've been fairly low quality swords churned out for simple footsoldiers, I doubt the fit and finish would be as fine as your example. Add to that a few years of wear and tear out on campaign and I can certainly see an anti-rattling hilt being of merit.
Well clearly for drinking the blood of your enemies. However, failing that the rainguard idea probably holds the most merit... especially if you consider a bunch of these being stored on racks for wall defense etc. I think this design won out because it achieved several outcomes at once.
I bet on the rain protection... I don't know the age of the design but I could see it being valuable in the period of the War with the Pirate Queen and her fleets and with the Opium Wars where they would be handing out a lot of blades to militia in defense of attacks via seafaring types and likewise in the parts of China that get the Monsoon rains (if I remember correctly).
It feels like all of your theses' have a fair degree of validity. So can we call this a package deal? A more comfortable, rain-shedding hilt that is stronger for it's weight and provides greater hand and thrust protection seems like an all around good thing.
@@dutch6857 sometimes being honest is better than being clever. 😁 But don't worry you are definitely a clever person, after all you where watching this video, so you can't be that stupid. 😉
I believe it has to do with making a strong guard lighter, or a light guard stronger, as well as aligning the blade in the scabbard so it doesn't bounce around a lot, as well as the water issue. As far as origins... I believe we see some disc guards on roman blades before we see them in china, right? Maybe I'm mixing that up.
Also, another point in favor of the low manufacturing cost theory: Dao are more associated with commoners' weapons as opposed to "gentleman" swords like the jian. (yes, yes, nobility also used dao, I'm just talking in generalities)
True, usually the Jians were used by the nobility or scribes, whilst the dao was more manufactured in a blacksmithing shop for commoners to use for it's purpose.
That type of guard can prevent blood etc fluids from reaching hand. Swords of that shape are pretty good to cut, slice, slash etc so they mostly drain in blood and other matter that can fall on hand damaging the grip on it.
It seems like it would serve as a good "rain-guard", but might also assist with blocking/catching an opponent's tip when they're attempting a thrust(?)... Or... it's a BLOOD CUP TO COLLECT YOUR OPPONENT'S BLOOD SO YOU CAN DRINK IT!!🤘🤜🤣
2000 years from now, when they have nothing but restored but mostly corrupt computer archives from our time and even less knowledge about these swords than we do, some expert will lecture that this comment from so very close to the times the blade was used must be correct and it was to drink the blood of your enemies for sure.
When i trainded Choy lee fut, one of my sifus told me it was in order to keep the enemy's blood away of the grip... all the reasons Mat outlined were more plausible than that, but is still a posibility.
I do not know the history but that shape is really strong with less weight than an equally strong solid disk. Sheet metal manufacturing is also really inexpensive and was really common in the early modern times. Sheet metal is thinner so to work with it the cup might have been necessary for strength/rigidity.
The additional distance gained to protect the hand from binds is likely the most probably reason. The cup starts to appear in the later periods, just as the Jian's prominence as a civilian duelling weapon started to grow. In general, the duelling Jian's techniques heavily involve controlling the opponent's weapon and getting slices on the opponent's hand or forearm from the bind. That additional bit of distance in protecting the hand from angles of attack from the bind would have been a huge factor in keeping the Dao relevant as a personal side arm. I do not think catching the opponent's point was ever intended design, rather a happy side effect. I have never seen a school of Chinese Dao-fa that keeps the Dao between the opponent and themselves in a manner that would lead to the catching of the point in the cup. Most DaoFa I am aware of tend to keep the weapon arm back, as it is and always was meant to be used with a shield in warfare. And even without a shield, there seems to be a great emphasis on keeping the sword arm back so as to not present an easy target, again likely because doing so against the more nimble Jian, where many schools of JianFa emphasised on targeting the opponent's weapon arm, is suicide.
Yes, I fully agree with you. Just regarding the shield argument: there is to my knowledge no evidence of ox tail dao being used by armies, it was an exclusively civilian weapon, so use with shields would have been rare (bandits and some militias, maybe). The main reason for the more retracted weapon arm is probably that the dao is usually kept moving as it is less nimble than the jian, but the idea of using it with a shield (which is also sometimes done in the style I train) may very well relate to older forms of dao.
First thing I thought when I saw that cup is that clanging a blade on the lip of that thing that would be a great way to put a dent in a mass-produced sword. I doubt doing chip damage to the enemy's weapon is enough motivation to design in that way, but it could be a nice bonus side effect.
I practice HEMA and shaolin kung fu including broadsword, I have several dao examples. I believe the correct explanation is that the cup guard secures the narrow end of the blade while the sword is sheathed. The tip end of the blade is wide and flaring, and therefore the narrow hilt end would otherwide have quite a bit of play while sheathed. Perhaps, there is some benefit preventing debris in the scabbard, etc. I do not believe it serves a specific combat function other than as a tsuba or crossguard. I feel that earlier historical examples are more likely to have a scabbard with one side open and fastenable, avoiding the issue of having to have to slide them directly into the scabbard tip-first. IMO a historical survey would likely show the development cup guard would be directly associated with the increase in the flare of the tip end of these swords, circa mid-to-late 18th century.
The "umbrella" idea is, in my view, likely to have been incidental, and a serendipitous advantage, but not the primary purpose of the folded edge. If it were the primary reason, why continue the folded edge around the bottom (blade edge side), where the geometry doesn't really give that advantage. In this instance one would perhaps expect a small projection to go over the top of the guard (back edge) where the rain is likely to get in, and stop there. This would be much easier and less laborious to make than a folded edge going right the way round the entire guard. Also I believe the "cushioning" effect of the folded edge on the guard, helping to stop the edge of the guard digging in to the wearer, when bashed or knocked was similarly serendipitous, but also not the primary reason. As you mention the fact that many historic examples of Dao disk guards are made of relatively thin metal, that really IS THE ANSWER. In order to make that kind of guard out of thin metal, and be robust enough for combat, it HAS to have a reinforced edge. And folding the edges down is the simplest, cheapest and quickest way to reinforce the edge. The fact that these examples come predominantly from the 19th Century also points to this, as the manufacturers would have presumably be making use of newly available forms of mass produced SHEET STEEL. Which, if they were to be made into disk guards would need to have the edges folded down on a dolly in the forge, in order to give the guard structural rigidity, in a similar manner to the shape of an RSJ. Indeed they could have been made on newly introduced press brake machines, if they were made post the 1920's. If not either of these techniques, the guards would have had to have been cast. But even with castings, they are relatively fragile compared to wrought iron, as they have a crystaline structure to the material. Having a "folded" edge, or a flange on the edge would increase the casting's structural rigidity, and resistance to damage significantly. By comparison Tsuba would presumably have been made in the forge using a lump of bloomery steel, or wrought iron which would have been forged into a thick solid disk of steel, which was inherently strong enough for it's intended purpose, without the need for a reinforcing fold or flange around the edge. Seeing a real example and determining the exact method of it's construction would help a lot in this respect, I think.
I've been practicing kung fu virtually my entire life, granted that's only 25+ years. But I can honestly say that a far as I've ever known, the generally accepted concesus at least in the modern kung fu community (Wulin) is that that cup shape was meant literally as a cup to catch blood running down the blade from getting all over the handle as you cut through enemies. As I understand it dry blood is notoriously sticky; no good on a sword handle. The ferocity of techniques used with the dao lend to spilling lots of blood.
Very good video, I think you brought many interesting points. As for the fact that you can actually pour liquid into the guard, in the Kung Fu school I attend the master usually tells the students that the cup shaped guard (in Italian he calls it "scola sangue", which I think it could be barely translated as "blood dripper" or "blood drainer", correct me if it's not accurate) was used to avoid that the rain or the enemy's blood could drip to the handle and make it slippery. I wasn't very convinced about that but, who knows.
The handle wrap would take care of that for the most part, even cheaply mass produced for garrison work, they are designed to remain grippy even in adverse conditions. You would be more concerned about the blade and tang getting rusty than the actual handle and so would want to keep it dry as much as possible. SO as a rain guard actually makes a lot of sense, especially for professionals fighting and patrolling year round, rain, sun, snow and fog.
Valid, well thought out points and line up with what I've been told and my own thoughts. Thanks for putting this out! I think a big factor is both the rain protection as well as strengthening the disc guard which remember could've been brass/bronze? and not iron. I have trained in this saber and sparred with it often for several years... I have NOT experienced using the cup/dish as a thrust catch myself.
My guesses for the Cup shaped disc is two things. 1. It adds strength. 2. Depending on the shape of the scabbard, it could keep water from rain from dripping past the guard into the scabbard.
Like many designs, it's probably to address multiple issues with the simplest, cheapest solution. One must remember, for a very long time, China was much more advanced technologically than most of the world but for India and surrounding areas. With a huge military and huge expenses associated with this, innovative, inexpensive solutions were likely welcomed by the authorities paying the bill. All of ideas presented were possibly presented at the time and won recognition for those responsible for developing it and addressing multiple issues with the most effective and economical solution. As a retired Industrial Design Engineer, I tend to look at designs with a different perspective than most. If one were to meet the responsible party(s), likely they would say "all of the above". It's just the most logical solution to multiple issues for the least effort and expense. IMO
In the great tradition of the “I heard it from someone who heard it from someone” spiel, I was told with great confidence by my M.A trainer who admittedly has zero actual sword combat experience that these weapons are usually produced under exigent circumstances by folks (read militias or rebels) with no access to government arsenals. A disc from poor quality steel would be slapped on as the hand-guard, and to save time and effort, the weapon smiths would just bend the edge of the guard to form a cup which incidentally has the following benefits 1. Quick and dirty way of strengthening the edge and prevent it from flaring 2. Prevent an unworked edge from cutting the user 3. Prevent jinking of the weapon in the scabbard (the part of the blade near the hilt has more headspace than the tip) I can’t vouch for the veracity of those points above, but I’ve read somewhere that these are mostly non-government issues and could vary a lot in terms of quality
I like that you said about how we always talk about sword against sword when often it’s spears they’d be up against. Nearly all of the Chinese sabre applications in the tai chi form I learnt in the 90’s were against spear or pole arm attacks
Maybe it's to catch the blood flowing down the blade. It is a slashing weapon, maybe the excessive blood would make your hand slippery and this way it would pool in the cup and not flow over your hand. These kind of Dao originaly had a piece of silk fastened at the pommel. It was, as far as I know, meant to whipe off the blood from your hands. Together with the cup it could make a bit of sense...
I thought, as you did, something along the lines of strengthening the guard, due to the thinness of the metal, and also as a rain-guard to try and keep water out of the scabbard, although I suspect that that would have been seen as a secondary 'bonus feature', as opposed to the purely structural idea of making a guard as strong as possible, from the minimum metal. Awesome presentation ^_^
I would add one point to your list: When you hit the guard with a blade, it will have very small contact area with the sharp part and I think it would be very likely that the guard "bites" into the blade like when you hit two blades into each other. This would mean that the blade could not slide up the guard. I imagine this would have several useful sceanarios apart from just chipping your opponent's blade a bit, like preventing some thrusts or even getting some degree of control over your opponent's blade...
I did wonder about catching a spear tip, but the main thing with a short weapon vs a spear is that if you did catch the point, you still have a way to go to get to the opponent, so the focus would usually be on getting past the point as quickly as possible. The fit to the neck of the scabbard seems to make the most sense given the recurve blade - which I guess is why you wouldn't need similar on a jian?
Longer term (overnight) rust, but I could see the inner wooden part of the scabbard start swelling almost immediately. The stiffness of a structural beam is proprtional tothe height of the beam cubed. The guard sticking out is essentially a cantilevered beam, so rolling that guard up absolutely makes the giuard stiffer and able to withstand higher loads. And as you say, it adds some cover to the large opening necessary to sheeth the larger bit at the front.
I'd say all of the above, for sure. It's worth noting that rigidity scales cubically with thickness opposing the vector of force so the cup shape yields much greater strength in opposition to a blow than a flat solid disc made of the same amount of metal would. You end up with an optimized strength-to-weight ratio that way and it provides numerous advantages.
I think the cup shape evolved in a couple ways. The rain guard is a good guess, but I think if you’re stamping the guards out of thinner sheet metal, the cupped shape provides rigidity that a flat disc of thin metal wouldn’t
Some interesting ideas, especially the rain protection. When I've seen originals the metal of the cup seemed so thin and of such soft iron that a sword blow could cut the deeply into it. In that case a deep cup would be necessary to porridge the hand and could catch the edge.
I paused at 1 second in so I don't know Matt's answer but I am just going to State my guess now... My guess would be that making it a cup shape add strength not only that but you can make the middle thinner the slighter with that shape than you could with the flat disk.
The three points I thought of were rain protection, point defence, and strength. I’m not knowledgeable but I read a lot and your arguments sound very good. The rapier / spear points were fine examples of may be. The rain exclusion given the chance of sticking seem sensible. Love your work.
You certainly raise several good points, and it's entirely possible these designs show up exactly because of those multiple possible reasons. Something that I thought of, which is honestly not based on anything but a thought; perhaps something was in this cups, like a decorative, carved piece of wood merely for decoration, or perhaps a coloured ribbon or something similar to identify a certain rank or status of the wearer.
Check out this jian with a disc guard. It has a rain guard on the center of the disc. It seems the rain guard was redesigned to be on the rim because it’s easier to make and offered hand protection.
I really liked your deflect the edge and catch the point guesses. Those where the first reasons that popped into my head when you brought it up. I had always assumed a disc guard was used to assist the swordsman in releasing the katana from the asaya. I didn't really think about other types of disc guards other than hand protection. Good video, thanks
I'd say all of the above is likely, and just one more thought. Since dao were a bit more of a militia or commoners weapon, close melee was not uncommon. Some classical kung fu forms for the dao include pommel hits and punches with sword hand for opponents who come close. Here is an interesting video using the dao and the classic rattan shield th-cam.com/video/-KzpTLZ_e40/w-d-xo.html
I agree with everything you've put forward here, Matt. With cutting swords like these I bet it does help getting that guard weight down to keep that point of balance more towards the blade tip for those slashes. What an interesting and versatile design. c:
Awesome video! I used to practice Jow Ga kung fu and my Sifu told me the cup design was to catch blood from the blade so the grip does not get slippery.
What about other types of cup guards? I have a miaodao in my possession and that sword has a hollow disc guard. It's like a round cup but enclosed with a perforated steel plate on top so it wouldn't work as well as a rainguard or to catch incoming points. Personally I think it has to do with aesthetic reasons. A chunkier disc just looks better that a thin disc, so they made it like a cup or hollow to save weight, just like with rondel daggers. :)
The rain guard seems the most logical reason. A mass-produced cheap combat weapon to be distributed to foot soldiers with a low-cost way to insure the weapon remains useful with very little attention required from the user. However, it may well be that it was a simple solution that handled multiple facets of sword production and use, such as all the ones you have laid out here. Regarding Andrew Eden's comment about a "blood catcher" - I don't think that was the purpose, however, it's not so far-fetched an idea. A kung-fu sifu was showing part of a gim (or gian) form in which the sword's decorative tassels were manipulated with the free hand, and he explained the application: once blood collects on the tassels, it could be flung into the opponent's face and eyes. (I just don't see a way to use any blood collected in the guard in a similar manner.)
Since jian hilts also had a built in rain guard chape I would think the cup serves a similar purpose. Furthermore, earlier sabers like the liuyedao which had a flat disc guard usually had a blade collar much like the Japanese habaki, which also protected the blade from rain. However these would be more expensive as it’s an additional part and has to be fitted to the blade and scabbard. This cup guard does the job while saving manufacturing time, while providing better protection to boot.
Excellent Vid! I believe that the steel quality was the biggest issue here. This design becomes more popular during the 19th century and is found on weapons with less than stellar workmanship. In the mid-late 19th century, massive peasant rebellions were raging across China and village smiths didn't always have the extra time, material, and skill needed to make high quality weapons. Though, I do think that the vertical height of the guard may also be a possibility. At least I suspect that the "tall" guards we find on Ming jian were designed to take advantage of this form of protecting the hands.
I find it interesting that AFAIK we don't see a lot of (if any) disc guards on jian. You might expect that with a somewhat more thrust-oriented sword the more common type of guard would be the one that is shaped more like that of a smallsword, with better cover for the hand (although I realize that they were used in quite distinct ways).
the cup is there to keep the blade stables and secure when it's in the sheath, because the Dao tip of the sword is much wider than lower bottom part of the blade so the sheath opening is much bigger ( to accommodate the wider tip of the blade) ..once fully in the sheath, the cup fully sit on the sheath like a lid on a jar and keeps it from shaking around on horse back riding or so ...I believed if the Dao wasn't so perfectly oddly shaped there would be no need for the cup guard, like a katana.
Hi Matt! Hope the family is doing well. I was watching a Q&A with another youtuber and he was asked how to sharpen a bayonet. His response was that you don't sharpen a bayonet. He said that sharp bayonets had a greater propensity to get stuck in the ribs of your foe. He sited the Japanese as an example of this. I was wondering what you have come across in your learning as to whether or not to sharpen a bayonet for combat.
most nations did sharpen bayonets and huge numbers of antique bayonets have been sharpened. It was completely normal to sharpen bayonets in the 19th century, WW1 and WW2.
Apart from holding the scabbard firmly in place, the cup guard provides a defense against thrusing weapons that might otherwise hit the guard disc, then slide to the side by friction and hit what's behind it.
My first thought was that it stops a thrust deflecting off the guard into the body or the arm, that makes perfect sense to me. As you said Matt, it's likely a combination of reasoning and practicality, one small change can offer many advantages and for that time, if you're thinking of 'mass production' then this was much easier to make than a spherical guard. Very interesting that some 'tsuba' had a raised edge too, I didn't know that. Now I consider (Phlebas, sorry, a nod to the greatest SF writer I have ever read, Ian M Banks RIP) sorry for the aside, now I consider the downsides, if a blade/point is 'captured' then you cannot easily 'slip inside' or slip anywhere, if the cup caught the point of his weapon, then it also caught your sword, it might be your one handed sword getting pushed backwards by a two-handed weapon, if it was a simple spear, it can cut you on the return, for example. My guess is that this was a feature of mass produced weapons for people who were not 'master-swordsmen' but rather; for armies or militia. Maybe it was best used in a 'system', look at the Roman 'Gladius/Spartha?', not very impressive swords per se' in a sword duel 'one-on-one' but deadly when used in coordinated units as part of an offensive system. I really like the 'nuance' of a 'rolled -edge' tsuba, that ability to deflect or stop but then control the release, you can't do that with a 'cup guard'. But what the hell do I know? Pax dude.
The strength and rain guard arguments seem the most likely to me. And as far as I can see, you don't really give up anything. So I'm curious, why would you ever *not* want the cup on a disc guard? Why didn't earlier swords (like the Tang dao) and Japanese swords do this?
@@yourhighschoolenglishteach8405 the majority of tsuba brought into battle had very little to no designs/decorations. The need to display decals seems more like an Edo period concern lol
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 oh interesting! yes it makes sense that the large majority of japanese swords would be more straightforward/less decorated
@@yourhighschoolenglishteach8405 the same goes for hamon patterns. If the sword smith or the school the sword smith belonged to didn’t have a signature hamon pattern, and the person ordering the sword didn’t say otherwise, they would have defaulted to a suguha/straight hamon pattern.
The cup may be used to catch/bind the the opposing blade, thus facilitating grappling with the dao, or empty hand. The optimal range for using a dao is more or less a foot-length from being able to touch your opponent with your sword-hand without leaning. More like Kali/escrima, less like european sabre duels.
Point capturing and guarding against the rain were the two possible reasons I initially thought about seeing the title, but the rest of the ideas also sound plausible.
Flat Disk guard if hit by a struck will bend, this Cup Rim will instead dent. Daos are very front heavy and used in chopping motion, includind on horseback, they might have noticed that such impact can bend the guard and worst your grip or have the guard loose.
It's for when you make a reverse spin attack, with your shield held behind you at arm's length as a counterweight, and you stab your opponent clean through his plate armour, and his blood runs down the blood grooves in the blade, it catches in the cup so you can drink the blood of your fallen enemy. However, some of your theories are good too. ;) Joking apart, the dao is wider near the tip than near the hilt. Therefore the slot in the scabbard is not "full of blade" when the sword is all the way in. That implies a risk of the sword rattling, and an increased risk of rain getting in, compared to a parallel-bladed sword. If it was to restrict the angle of blade contact in a bind, the same could be achieved with a thin guard half an inch further from the hand.
If you examine the techniques and tactics employed with the dao's usage, you will find there are quite a few move that are designed to 'trap' the opponent's weapon (often a spear) in that gap between the guard and the blade. This means that the guard itself will sustain quite a bit of impact throughout its lifetime. Using a cup rather than a disc extends the lifespan of the guard, while not needing to increase cost or affect the balance of the sword by thickening the whole thing.
@@rikospostmodernlife jk also means "just kidding." I've never seen it with a / in the middle but the whole combination gets the point across no matter what it means precisely, which is the important thing.
I think it's a beautiful design, the cup can block opponent’s blade a little bit higher than simple cross guard and plain disk guard, give user more protection angle, the problem of simple cross guard is that it’s too thin, too close to the hand, user will easily be cut if opponent’s blade tilts a little bit toward to the hand while blocking.
Everything you say makes good sense, especially the one about reinforcement, but the last idea about catching the point of a blade is the first thing I thought of. I've done some Dao sparring (read not much) and I've never heard mention of the guard being used in that way but I am familiar with the jian and (at least in the style I practiced) there are many attacks that aim to spiral in around the opponent's blade with the intent to perform a quick push & pull cut along the opponent's weapon hand/ forearm. I don't know if there is a similarity with the Rapier in that sense but being able to detain the point from that kind of thrust would certainly be of benefit.
the cap could act as a cushion or absorption during fight. also dust and rain could not get into the scabbard as a cover, not so easy to get rusty. It was rain a lot China and the soldier have to match in it sometime.
I'm not an expert but I think I agree with both your point about the rain protection and about the, combat application against Spears. This is a mass-produced weapon for soldiers to wield against other soldiers as a sidearm. Imagine to opposing units of Spears facing against each other, trying to push through one another. One of the soldiers, for whatever reason, loses his fear and must draw his sidearm. He was using both hands to hold his spear, before, so it's not practical for him to have both his sword and a shield but he must now face Spears from the enemy. Be slightly larger than normal cup shaped guard on the sword is used to capture the point of an enemies fear for just a moment. Hopefully, long enough that he can get a grapple on behalf of the enemies spear. From there he might shop at the half to disable the enemies fear or he might press forward into the enemy himself. Give me the design of the sword, no, I suspect that the first coat is to capture and chop the Spear of the enemy.
Help preventing hand sniping while also making it stronger and more comfortable to wear, seems like it would be enough reasons to include it in the context of Chinese martial arts.
The rigidity makes the most sense to me but the thrust catching is interesting. Some parallels with some bucklers that are concave or have bars and projections as well.
The points about comfort for wearing and keeping an opponent's blade further from the hand makes sense. However, it should be remembered that this particular type of dao, the oxtail dao, was (with a few exceptions) pretty much only a civilian weapon, which would kind of reinforce the point about comfort. That being said, being a civilian weapon, it would have been unlikely that this type of dao would encounter spears or other pole-arms. Additionally, regarding the use of a rim to increase strength, wouldn't it be easier to simply make a thicker flat disc than to go out of your way to make a thin outer rim (i could be totally wrong about that)? Finally, looking at surviving examples of different dao, it seems like the upturned rim tends to be noticeably more pronounced on oxtail dao, compared to other types of dao where they tend to have (shorter?) rims, or even no rim at all. I don't know why that might be, and in fact, that pattern might not even be representative of reality as i haven't seen a huge number of surviving dao, it's just something i've noticed.
In my opinion, it's pure physics. This arrangement is still light and therefore much more impact resistant than flat disc. A heavily sharpened blade hitting such guard gets stuck and chipped instead of slice from it. I think it also gives a slight chance to catch some trusts . In addition its prevents dust and moisture from getting into the scabard. I wrote this comment before view video
I legitimately have almost no idea, but in Kung Fu we put two hands on the hilt for some moves and pushed. For that move pushing on the cup surface feels good. You can push on the back of the cup much more comfortably than the back of the blade.
As a smith, I can say that guard would be pretty hard to make, but it would make a much more rigid and light weight guard (Like an I-Beam, or a fuller for the guard). I imagine it actually being less effective at binding with two edges for the weapon to bind against. I also imagine it acting as a liability when catching a point. You're much more likely to be disarmed by a thrust that is cup-caught than any other way (unless you're actually catching tall grass or sticks). Lastly, the fact that it's on a slashy sword tells me that there was a problem with the previous, thinner guard. The best as I can see, if they are used against slashy weapons which might hit above their weight class, this forms a much better alternative.
13:00 That seems very plausible, but I'm not to sure about the efficiency of such a move. The jian was a thrusting weapon if you look at masters of the weapon use it, so it would make sense that the Chinese would come up with a counter to that. That said, such a small rim (compared to a shield) and being a slashing weapon might discourage trying to catch the weapon, so I'm not at all certain.
The first three reasons of practicality are those I came up with independently before watching the video so those seem very reasonable to me. but it seems possible it may have originally been implemented for one or several of those or otherreasons, but maybe stayed popular for all of them.
First thing I immediately thought one useful feature was protection from thrust attacks. But I agree on all your points, the rim add a lot of features adding minimal weight. Then, could another reason be to avoid blood to reach user hand? Blood will inevitably flow down into the cup, ending up being stuck there, so I wonder if that’s an intended effect or an unavoidable collateral. Admittedly adding some perforations would have prevented this, but this solution would also reduce in the process some degree of waterproof protection fir the scabbard, I don’t know ...
It could also work as a dual liquid guard. Rain from the blade while in sheath and rain/liquid from the hand while being used. Odds are more likely it was designed to fulfill all the reasons as a well rounded and effective weapon making it useful and practical
I think your last thought of catching points is the correct one, it's always been my assumption. Rainguard seems next most likely. All of the ideas have some merit though I think comfort is the least likely.
Its also possible that it was done simply for aesthetic reasons. A general (especially a chinese general, who generally wouldve been deeply involved in political/courtly matters) might want their soldiers arms and armor to look good in order to inspire/garner support from bystanders/future recruits. Such things are still done to this day with the dress wear of modern militaries.
i agree with most your points but i think the main reason is if your fighting a chinese longsword with a broadsword you want a cup hilt or when you deflect a stab they will draw it back across your hand in a flash, their quite sharp on edges and very maneuverable fighting a chinese longsword is a lot like fighting a saber would you want to fight a saber without a basket or cup hilt ? :P theirs other weapons like spears javalins & knives where i can say from personal experience even shell hilts can catch them relatively regularly i use mine almost like a small targe (i have a bastardized knife hilt with a shell guard with a sword catching hook on each corner of shell on my main hand & half sword[yes i know theirs not many historical examples of such a hilt except maybe the 1600s]) but i think the main reason for it is chinese longswords
@@WexMajor82 Yeah there are full modern performance wushu routines for it because it was created for modern performance wushu in the late 20th century. It's not really a secret that the nan dao is a modern invention for performance wushu competition. It's pretty widely known and written about. There are even interviews with some of the pioneers of modern performance wushu describing the process of it's invention for the PRC's modern performance wushu program.
I have a relative who has a fair bit of background in Chinese history - according to him, the cup is to keep the scabbard in place. Note how the scabbard opening for the ox tail dao is quite wide to accommodate the wider front end of the blade. If the guard is not cupped, the more narrow part of the blade near the hilt would slide back and forth within the opening, hence dulling the blade as well as making the fit less secure. The cup essentially locks the scabbard in place.
Makes a lot of sense
that makes more sense than the stuff i thought of (which Matt ended up going over in the video).
That's basically what I was thinking, except I figured it worked to better seal the scabbard from weather elements. It makes sense that it would work competently for both better fitting the sword securely in the scabbard and protecting the sheathed sword from weather elements.
So it's like a reverse habaki
this exact issue has made me wonder how spurious scabbards on any tip-heavy sword are. even on museum pieces
They use the cup to catch the hundreds of arrows that are shot at the main characters.
@asdrubale bisanzio no it's the main character so they'll catch all of them so precisely that they all land on one spot and split the previous arrow Robin hood style
@@thisaccountisntreal107 no need to catch them at all, just bash them out of the air while spinning, and don't forget to split the last shaft such that its halves pass you left and right.
Funny enough, in the old Kung fu movies, bandits use dao whereas the main characters use jian
Thats the cup they used to catch the 100,000 arrows to fire back at the enemy
Considering that the blade is wider towards the tip, the guard might also keep the scabbard from rattling against the narrow width at the base of the blade. I think all proposed ideas are correct because it seems like a simple solution that does a decent job at many different things. Kinda genius really.
Mine doesn't rattle when sheathed
Nice idea! Bryn, yours may not rattle, but considering these would've been fairly low quality swords churned out for simple footsoldiers, I doubt the fit and finish would be as fine as your example. Add to that a few years of wear and tear out on campaign and I can certainly see an anti-rattling hilt being of merit.
Well clearly for drinking the blood of your enemies. However, failing that the rainguard idea probably holds the most merit... especially if you consider a bunch of these being stored on racks for wall defense etc. I think this design won out because it achieved several outcomes at once.
dang. I was hoping I would be the first to make the "cup to catch pooling blood to drink the blood of your enemies and look super sick" joke.
Lol, every army loves a multi purpose tool to cut that weight!
Yeah... blood drinking....definitely
That's not how you make bloodwine Earthling.
I bet on the rain protection... I don't know the age of the design but I could see it being valuable in the period of the War with the Pirate Queen and her fleets and with the Opium Wars where they would be handing out a lot of blades to militia in defense of attacks via seafaring types and likewise in the parts of China that get the Monsoon rains (if I remember correctly).
I strongly agree with the strength/rigidity statement.
It feels like all of your theses' have a fair degree of validity. So can we call this a package deal? A more comfortable, rain-shedding hilt that is stronger for it's weight and provides greater hand and thrust protection seems like an all around good thing.
Did you just made an "all around" joke about disc guards? Or was it just me who thought that was kinda funny?
@@sojus7929 I should tell you that I meant to do that so I would seem clever, but no. Purely unintentional.
I think that a design that offers several benefits is better than one that only offers one, unless that one benefit rules them all.
@@dutch6857 sometimes being honest is better than being clever. 😁
But don't worry you are definitely a clever person, after all you where watching this video, so you can't be that stupid. 😉
@@sojus7929 Kind words, thank you. And because you watched as well i can say "Good travels fellow smart person!"
Matt, on the antiques were there any evidences of the cup receiving damages from cuts and thrusts or were they mostly pristine?
Many Byzantine swords also had this feature. It must have had a purpose for both cultures to have developed it! Or they had mutual cultural exchange.
Or it could be different ppl had the same solution. I have a suspicion that it is to solve practical problems rather than combat problems.
@@F1ghteR41 Indeed.
I believe it has to do with making a strong guard lighter, or a light guard stronger, as well as aligning the blade in the scabbard so it doesn't bounce around a lot, as well as the water issue. As far as origins... I believe we see some disc guards on roman blades before we see them in china, right? Maybe I'm mixing that up.
Also, another point in favor of the low manufacturing cost theory: Dao are more associated with commoners' weapons as opposed to "gentleman" swords like the jian. (yes, yes, nobility also used dao, I'm just talking in generalities)
That's so cool! :D
True, usually the Jians were used by the nobility or scribes, whilst the dao was more manufactured in a blacksmithing shop for commoners to use for it's purpose.
That type of guard can prevent blood etc fluids from reaching hand.
Swords of that shape are pretty good to cut, slice, slash etc so they mostly drain in blood and other matter that can fall on hand damaging the grip on it.
It seems like it would serve as a good "rain-guard", but might also assist with blocking/catching an opponent's tip when they're attempting a thrust(?)...
Or... it's a BLOOD CUP TO COLLECT YOUR OPPONENT'S BLOOD SO YOU CAN DRINK IT!!🤘🤜🤣
@@MascottDeepfriar , Good call indeed!
2000 years from now, when they have nothing but restored but mostly corrupt computer archives from our time and even less knowledge about these swords than we do, some expert will lecture that this comment from so very close to the times the blade was used must be correct and it was to drink the blood of your enemies for sure.
When i trainded Choy lee fut, one of my sifus told me it was in order to keep the enemy's blood away of the grip... all the reasons Mat outlined were more plausible than that, but is still a posibility.
I agree. It fits over the edge of the scabbard and keeps the rain out of the scabbard.
Wow, I found this after I made my post. So I guess I'm not the only blood thirsty one.😅
Probably to have a lighter/thinner guard that won't bend as easily..
I do not know the history but that shape is really strong with less weight than an equally strong solid disk. Sheet metal manufacturing is also really inexpensive and was really common in the early modern times. Sheet metal is thinner so to work with it the cup might have been necessary for strength/rigidity.
The additional distance gained to protect the hand from binds is likely the most probably reason.
The cup starts to appear in the later periods, just as the Jian's prominence as a civilian duelling weapon started to grow. In general, the duelling Jian's techniques heavily involve controlling the opponent's weapon and getting slices on the opponent's hand or forearm from the bind. That additional bit of distance in protecting the hand from angles of attack from the bind would have been a huge factor in keeping the Dao relevant as a personal side arm.
I do not think catching the opponent's point was ever intended design, rather a happy side effect. I have never seen a school of Chinese Dao-fa that keeps the Dao between the opponent and themselves in a manner that would lead to the catching of the point in the cup. Most DaoFa I am aware of tend to keep the weapon arm back, as it is and always was meant to be used with a shield in warfare. And even without a shield, there seems to be a great emphasis on keeping the sword arm back so as to not present an easy target, again likely because doing so against the more nimble Jian, where many schools of JianFa emphasised on targeting the opponent's weapon arm, is suicide.
Yes, I fully agree with you. Just regarding the shield argument: there is to my knowledge no evidence of ox tail dao being used by armies, it was an exclusively civilian weapon, so use with shields would have been rare (bandits and some militias, maybe). The main reason for the more retracted weapon arm is probably that the dao is usually kept moving as it is less nimble than the jian, but the idea of using it with a shield (which is also sometimes done in the style I train) may very well relate to older forms of dao.
First thing I thought when I saw that cup is that clanging a blade on the lip of that thing that would be a great way to put a dent in a mass-produced sword. I doubt doing chip damage to the enemy's weapon is enough motivation to design in that way, but it could be a nice bonus side effect.
I practice HEMA and shaolin kung fu including broadsword, I have several dao examples. I believe the correct explanation is that the cup guard secures the narrow end of the blade while the sword is sheathed. The tip end of the blade is wide and flaring, and therefore the narrow hilt end would otherwide have quite a bit of play while sheathed. Perhaps, there is some benefit preventing debris in the scabbard, etc. I do not believe it serves a specific combat function other than as a tsuba or crossguard. I feel that earlier historical examples are more likely to have a scabbard with one side open and fastenable, avoiding the issue of having to have to slide them directly into the scabbard tip-first. IMO a historical survey would likely show the development cup guard would be directly associated with the increase in the flare of the tip end of these swords, circa mid-to-late 18th century.
The "umbrella" idea is, in my view, likely to have been incidental, and a serendipitous advantage, but not the primary purpose of the folded edge. If it were the primary reason, why continue the folded edge around the bottom (blade edge side), where the geometry doesn't really give that advantage. In this instance one would perhaps expect a small projection to go over the top of the guard (back edge) where the rain is likely to get in, and stop there. This would be much easier and less laborious to make than a folded edge going right the way round the entire guard. Also I believe the "cushioning" effect of the folded edge on the guard, helping to stop the edge of the guard digging in to the wearer, when bashed or knocked was similarly serendipitous, but also not the primary reason.
As you mention the fact that many historic examples of Dao disk guards are made of relatively thin metal, that really IS THE ANSWER. In order to make that kind of guard out of thin metal, and be robust enough for combat, it HAS to have a reinforced edge. And folding the edges down is the simplest, cheapest and quickest way to reinforce the edge. The fact that these examples come predominantly from the 19th Century also points to this, as the manufacturers would have presumably be making use of newly available forms of mass produced SHEET STEEL. Which, if they were to be made into disk guards would need to have the edges folded down on a dolly in the forge, in order to give the guard structural rigidity, in a similar manner to the shape of an RSJ. Indeed they could have been made on newly introduced press brake machines, if they were made post the 1920's. If not either of these techniques, the guards would have had to have been cast. But even with castings, they are relatively fragile compared to wrought iron, as they have a crystaline structure to the material. Having a "folded" edge, or a flange on the edge would increase the casting's structural rigidity, and resistance to damage significantly. By comparison Tsuba would presumably have been made in the forge using a lump of bloomery steel, or wrought iron which would have been forged into a thick solid disk of steel, which was inherently strong enough for it's intended purpose, without the need for a reinforcing fold or flange around the edge.
Seeing a real example and determining the exact method of it's construction would help a lot in this respect, I think.
I've been practicing kung fu virtually my entire life, granted that's only 25+ years. But I can honestly say that a far as I've ever known, the generally accepted concesus at least in the modern kung fu community (Wulin) is that that cup shape was meant literally as a cup to catch blood running down the blade from getting all over the handle as you cut through enemies. As I understand it dry blood is notoriously sticky; no good on a sword handle. The ferocity of techniques used with the dao lend to spilling lots of blood.
Very good video, I think you brought many interesting points. As for the fact that you can actually pour liquid into the guard, in the Kung Fu school I attend the master usually tells the students that the cup shaped guard (in Italian he calls it "scola sangue", which I think it could be barely translated as "blood dripper" or "blood drainer", correct me if it's not accurate) was used to avoid that the rain or the enemy's blood could drip to the handle and make it slippery. I wasn't very convinced about that but, who knows.
The handle wrap would take care of that for the most part, even cheaply mass produced for garrison work, they are designed to remain grippy even in adverse conditions. You would be more concerned about the blade and tang getting rusty than the actual handle and so would want to keep it dry as much as possible. SO as a rain guard actually makes a lot of sense, especially for professionals fighting and patrolling year round, rain, sun, snow and fog.
Scola sangue = blood drainer, correct
i dont even care about this topic, im here for the innuendo and the context
Valid, well thought out points and line up with what I've been told and my own thoughts. Thanks for putting this out! I think a big factor is both the rain protection as well as strengthening the disc guard which remember could've been brass/bronze? and not iron. I have trained in this saber and sparred with it often for several years... I have NOT experienced using the cup/dish as a thrust catch myself.
My guesses for the Cup shaped disc is two things.
1. It adds strength.
2. Depending on the shape of the scabbard, it could keep water from rain from dripping past the guard into the scabbard.
Nope, the secret is, the whole sword closes a container you carry on the back.
Like many designs, it's probably to address multiple issues with the simplest, cheapest solution. One must remember, for a very long time, China was much more advanced technologically than most of the world but for India and surrounding areas. With a huge military and huge expenses associated with this, innovative, inexpensive solutions were likely welcomed by the authorities paying the bill. All of ideas presented were possibly presented at the time and won recognition for those responsible for developing it and addressing multiple issues with the most effective and economical solution. As a retired Industrial Design Engineer, I tend to look at designs with a different perspective than most. If one were to meet the responsible party(s), likely they would say "all of the above". It's just the most logical solution to multiple issues for the least effort and expense. IMO
In the great tradition of the “I heard it from someone who heard it from someone” spiel, I was told with great confidence by my M.A trainer who admittedly has zero actual sword combat experience that these weapons are usually produced under exigent circumstances by folks (read militias or rebels) with no access to government arsenals. A disc from poor quality steel would be slapped on as the hand-guard, and to save time and effort, the weapon smiths would just bend the edge of the guard to form a cup which incidentally has the following benefits
1. Quick and dirty way of strengthening the edge and prevent it from flaring
2. Prevent an unworked edge from cutting the user
3. Prevent jinking of the weapon in the scabbard (the part of the blade near the hilt has more headspace than the tip)
I can’t vouch for the veracity of those points above, but I’ve read somewhere that these are mostly non-government issues and could vary a lot in terms of quality
point 2 sounds like bs but point 3 sounds like the most sensible reason thus far.
I like that you said about how we always talk about sword against sword when often it’s spears they’d be up against. Nearly all of the Chinese sabre applications in the tai chi form I learnt in the 90’s were against spear or pole arm attacks
Probably to keep rain out of the scabbard.
Maybe it's to catch the blood flowing down the blade.
It is a slashing weapon, maybe the excessive blood would make your hand slippery and this way it would pool in the cup and not flow over your hand.
These kind of Dao originaly had a piece of silk fastened at the pommel. It was, as far as I know, meant to whipe off the blood from your hands.
Together with the cup it could make a bit of sense...
I thought, as you did, something along the lines of strengthening the guard, due to the thinness of the metal, and also as a rain-guard to try and keep water out of the scabbard, although I suspect that that would have been seen as a secondary 'bonus feature', as opposed to the purely structural idea of making a guard as strong as possible, from the minimum metal. Awesome presentation ^_^
I would add one point to your list: When you hit the guard with a blade, it will have very small contact area with the sharp part and I think it would be very likely that the guard "bites" into the blade like when you hit two blades into each other. This would mean that the blade could not slide up the guard. I imagine this would have several useful sceanarios apart from just chipping your opponent's blade a bit, like preventing some thrusts or even getting some degree of control over your opponent's blade...
Very well thought out. Always a pleasurable learning experience. Thanks Professor.
I did wonder about catching a spear tip, but the main thing with a short weapon vs a spear is that if you did catch the point, you still have a way to go to get to the opponent, so the focus would usually be on getting past the point as quickly as possible. The fit to the neck of the scabbard seems to make the most sense given the recurve blade - which I guess is why you wouldn't need similar on a jian?
Longer term (overnight) rust, but I could see the inner wooden part of the scabbard start swelling almost immediately.
The stiffness of a structural beam is proprtional tothe height of the beam cubed. The guard sticking out is essentially a cantilevered beam, so rolling that guard up absolutely makes the giuard stiffer and able to withstand higher loads. And as you say, it adds some cover to the large opening necessary to sheeth the larger bit at the front.
When did they discard the disc guard?
The chineses? never. they keep it util the last miaodao were in use in WWII.
@@A.B994 XD Me: What an epic pun! (dies...). Cards well played, sir!
I assume discarding a guard would be known as disguard, and a disc guard dis-disc-guard?
@@A.B994 That sounds like bs.
I'd say all of the above, for sure. It's worth noting that rigidity scales cubically with thickness opposing the vector of force so the cup shape yields much greater strength in opposition to a blow than a flat solid disc made of the same amount of metal would. You end up with an optimized strength-to-weight ratio that way and it provides numerous advantages.
I think the cup shape evolved in a couple ways. The rain guard is a good guess, but I think if you’re stamping the guards out of thinner sheet metal, the cupped shape provides rigidity that a flat disc of thin metal wouldn’t
Some interesting ideas, especially the rain protection.
When I've seen originals the metal of the cup seemed so thin and of such soft iron that a sword blow could cut the deeply into it. In that case a deep cup would be necessary to porridge the hand and could catch the edge.
That would trap the enemy's blade for sure
I paused at 1 second in so I don't know Matt's answer but I am just going to State my guess now...
My guess would be that making it a cup shape add strength not only that but you can make the middle thinner the slighter with that shape than you could with the flat disk.
The three points I thought of were rain protection, point defence, and strength. I’m not knowledgeable but I read a lot and your arguments sound very good. The rapier / spear points were fine examples of may be. The rain exclusion given the chance of sticking seem sensible.
Love your work.
You certainly raise several good points, and it's entirely possible these designs show up exactly because of those multiple possible reasons. Something that I thought of, which is honestly not based on anything but a thought; perhaps something was in this cups, like a decorative, carved piece of wood merely for decoration, or perhaps a coloured ribbon or something similar to identify a certain rank or status of the wearer.
Check out this jian with a disc guard. It has a rain guard on the center of the disc. It seems the rain guard was redesigned to be on the rim because it’s easier to make and offered hand protection.
I really liked your deflect the edge and catch the point guesses. Those where the first reasons that popped into my head when you brought it up. I had always assumed a disc guard was used to assist the swordsman in releasing the katana from the asaya. I didn't really think about other types of disc guards other than hand protection. Good video, thanks
I'd say all of the above is likely, and just one more thought. Since dao were a bit more of a militia or commoners weapon, close melee was not uncommon. Some classical kung fu forms for the dao include pommel hits and punches with sword hand for opponents who come close. Here is an interesting video using the dao and the classic rattan shield th-cam.com/video/-KzpTLZ_e40/w-d-xo.html
I agree with everything you've put forward here, Matt. With cutting swords like these I bet it does help getting that guard weight down to keep that point of balance more towards the blade tip for those slashes. What an interesting and versatile design. c:
Awesome video! I used to practice Jow Ga kung fu and my Sifu told me the cup design was to catch blood from the blade so the grip does not get slippery.
What about other types of cup guards? I have a miaodao in my possession and that sword has a hollow disc guard. It's like a round cup but enclosed with a perforated steel plate on top so it wouldn't work as well as a rainguard or to catch incoming points. Personally I think it has to do with aesthetic reasons. A chunkier disc just looks better that a thin disc, so they made it like a cup or hollow to save weight, just like with rondel daggers. :)
The rain guard seems the most logical reason. A mass-produced cheap combat weapon to be distributed to foot soldiers with a low-cost way to insure the weapon remains useful with very little attention required from the user.
However, it may well be that it was a simple solution that handled multiple facets of sword production and use, such as all the ones you have laid out here.
Regarding Andrew Eden's comment about a "blood catcher" - I don't think that was the purpose, however, it's not so far-fetched an idea. A kung-fu sifu was showing part of a gim (or gian) form in which the sword's decorative tassels were manipulated with the free hand, and he explained the application: once blood collects on the tassels, it could be flung into the opponent's face and eyes. (I just don't see a way to use any blood collected in the guard in a similar manner.)
I did immediately think about it as a point catcher. The rain protection was an interesting observation.
Since jian hilts also had a built in rain guard chape I would think the cup serves a similar purpose. Furthermore, earlier sabers like the liuyedao which had a flat disc guard usually had a blade collar much like the Japanese habaki, which also protected the blade from rain. However these would be more expensive as it’s an additional part and has to be fitted to the blade and scabbard. This cup guard does the job while saving manufacturing time, while providing better protection to boot.
It's there to collect the blood of your enemies.
2 mins in and ALREADY Matt passingly promised 3 more video topics for the future!
What a master of hyping his audience for future content!
Excellent Vid! I believe that the steel quality was the biggest issue here. This design becomes more popular during the 19th century and is found on weapons with less than stellar workmanship. In the mid-late 19th century, massive peasant rebellions were raging across China and village smiths didn't always have the extra time, material, and skill needed to make high quality weapons. Though, I do think that the vertical height of the guard may also be a possibility. At least I suspect that the "tall" guards we find on Ming jian were designed to take advantage of this form of protecting the hands.
I find it interesting that AFAIK we don't see a lot of (if any) disc guards on jian. You might expect that with a somewhat more thrust-oriented sword the more common type of guard would be the one that is shaped more like that of a smallsword, with better cover for the hand (although I realize that they were used in quite distinct ways).
the cup is there to keep the blade stables and secure when it's in the sheath, because the Dao tip of the sword is much wider than lower bottom part of the blade so the sheath opening is much bigger ( to accommodate the wider tip of the blade)
..once fully in the sheath, the cup fully sit on the sheath like a lid on a jar and keeps it from shaking around on horse back riding or so ...I believed if the Dao wasn't so perfectly oddly shaped there would be no need for the cup guard, like a katana.
Hi Matt! Hope the family is doing well. I was watching a Q&A with another youtuber and he was asked how to sharpen a bayonet. His response was that you don't sharpen a bayonet. He said that sharp bayonets had a greater propensity to get stuck in the ribs of your foe. He sited the Japanese as an example of this. I was wondering what you have come across in your learning as to whether or not to sharpen a bayonet for combat.
most nations did sharpen bayonets and huge numbers of antique bayonets have been sharpened. It was completely normal to sharpen bayonets in the 19th century, WW1 and WW2.
the cup might also provide a surface for decoration perhaps to engrave with markings denoting rank within an army or something similar
All I know is I would kill to watch a discussion between you and Chinese specialist Scott Rodell
Apart from holding the scabbard firmly in place, the cup guard provides a defense against thrusing weapons that might otherwise hit the guard disc, then slide to the side by friction and hit what's behind it.
My first thought was that it stops a thrust deflecting off the guard into the body or the arm, that makes perfect sense to me.
As you said Matt, it's likely a combination of reasoning and practicality, one small change can offer many advantages and for that time, if you're thinking of 'mass production' then this was much easier to make than a spherical guard.
Very interesting that some 'tsuba' had a raised edge too, I didn't know that.
Now I consider (Phlebas, sorry, a nod to the greatest SF writer I have ever read, Ian M Banks RIP) sorry for the aside, now I consider the downsides, if a blade/point is 'captured' then you cannot easily 'slip inside' or slip anywhere, if the cup caught the point of his weapon, then it also caught your sword, it might be your one handed sword getting pushed backwards by a two-handed weapon, if it was a simple spear, it can cut you on the return, for example.
My guess is that this was a feature of mass produced weapons for people who were not 'master-swordsmen' but rather; for armies or militia. Maybe it was best used in a 'system', look at the Roman 'Gladius/Spartha?', not very impressive swords per se' in a sword duel 'one-on-one' but deadly when used in coordinated units as part of an offensive system.
I really like the 'nuance' of a 'rolled -edge' tsuba, that ability to deflect or stop but then control the release, you can't do that with a 'cup guard'.
But what the hell do I know?
Pax dude.
Every answer you offer is better than the last.
The strength and rain guard arguments seem the most likely to me. And as far as I can see, you don't really give up anything. So I'm curious, why would you ever *not* want the cup on a disc guard? Why didn't earlier swords (like the Tang dao) and Japanese swords do this?
maybe the flat disk tsuba are better suited to display engravings/decoration?
@@yourhighschoolenglishteach8405 the majority of tsuba brought into battle had very little to no designs/decorations. The need to display decals seems more like an Edo period concern lol
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 oh interesting! yes it makes sense that the large majority of japanese swords would be more straightforward/less decorated
@@yourhighschoolenglishteach8405 the same goes for hamon patterns. If the sword smith or the school the sword smith belonged to didn’t have a signature hamon pattern, and the person ordering the sword didn’t say otherwise, they would have defaulted to a suguha/straight hamon pattern.
The cup may be used to catch/bind the the opposing blade, thus facilitating grappling with the dao, or empty hand.
The optimal range for using a dao is more or less a foot-length from being able to touch your opponent with your sword-hand without leaning. More like Kali/escrima, less like european sabre duels.
Point capturing and guarding against the rain were the two possible reasons I initially thought about seeing the title, but the rest of the ideas also sound plausible.
Flat Disk guard if hit by a struck will bend, this Cup Rim will instead dent. Daos are very front heavy and used in chopping motion, includind on horseback, they might have noticed that such impact can bend the guard and worst your grip or have the guard loose.
It's for when you make a reverse spin attack, with your shield held behind you at arm's length as a counterweight, and you stab your opponent clean through his plate armour, and his blood runs down the blood grooves in the blade, it catches in the cup so you can drink the blood of your fallen enemy. However, some of your theories are good too. ;) Joking apart, the dao is wider near the tip than near the hilt. Therefore the slot in the scabbard is not "full of blade" when the sword is all the way in. That implies a risk of the sword rattling, and an increased risk of rain getting in, compared to a parallel-bladed sword. If it was to restrict the angle of blade contact in a bind, the same could be achieved with a thin guard half an inch further from the hand.
I'm thinking snack holder. Perhaps even some dip.
I enjoy such speculative video discusions, particularly just before a more researched video. Thanks!
Sell that idea to Mexicans.
If you examine the techniques and tactics employed with the dao's usage, you will find there are quite a few move that are designed to 'trap' the opponent's weapon (often a spear) in that gap between the guard and the blade. This means that the guard itself will sustain quite a bit of impact throughout its lifetime. Using a cup rather than a disc extends the lifespan of the guard, while not needing to increase cost or affect the balance of the sword by thickening the whole thing.
I think that they were for ceremonial purposes, likely to catch the blood of your enemies for ritual sacrifice (or other purposes) later. j/k
Don't you mean "/j"?
but only after the blood has drained from body via the blood groove not this fuller nonsense.
@@rikospostmodernlife jk also means "just kidding." I've never seen it with a / in the middle but the whole combination gets the point across no matter what it means precisely, which is the important thing.
@@gearandalthefirst7027 got it. I just never saw it with the slash, so i thought you brainfarted a /j
I think it's a beautiful design, the cup can block opponent’s blade a little bit higher than simple cross guard and plain disk guard, give user more protection angle,
the problem of simple cross guard is that it’s too thin, too close to the hand, user will easily be cut if opponent’s blade tilts a little bit toward to the hand while blocking.
Your observations seem very relevant & scientific.
Rain guard seem like the most logical. And the extra material keeping the adversaries blade away from your hand also makes sense.
Everything you say makes good sense, especially the one about reinforcement, but the last idea about catching the point of a blade is the first thing I thought of.
I've done some Dao sparring (read not much) and I've never heard mention of the guard being used in that way but I am familiar with the jian and (at least in the style I practiced) there are many attacks that aim to spiral in around the opponent's blade with the intent to perform a quick push & pull cut along the opponent's weapon hand/ forearm. I don't know if there is a similarity with the Rapier in that sense but being able to detain the point from that kind of thrust would certainly be of benefit.
Point catch - not for "Rapier" but a pole-arm? Spear? You could catch a spear tip and then go into a bind and disarm them. Smart, those Chinese.
the cap could act as a cushion or absorption during fight. also dust and rain could not get into the scabbard as a cover, not so easy to get rusty. It was rain a lot China and the soldier have to match in it sometime.
I'm not an expert but I think I agree with both your point about the rain protection and about the, combat application against Spears. This is a mass-produced weapon for soldiers to wield against other soldiers as a sidearm.
Imagine to opposing units of Spears facing against each other, trying to push through one another. One of the soldiers, for whatever reason, loses his fear and must draw his sidearm. He was using both hands to hold his spear, before, so it's not practical for him to have both his sword and a shield but he must now face Spears from the enemy. Be slightly larger than normal cup shaped guard on the sword is used to capture the point of an enemies fear for just a moment. Hopefully, long enough that he can get a grapple on behalf of the enemies spear. From there he might shop at the half to disable the enemies fear or he might press forward into the enemy himself. Give me the design of the sword, no, I suspect that the first coat is to capture and chop the Spear of the enemy.
Help preventing hand sniping while also making it stronger and more comfortable to wear, seems like it would be enough reasons to include it in the context of Chinese martial arts.
The rigidity makes the most sense to me but the thrust catching is interesting. Some parallels with some bucklers that are concave or have bars and projections as well.
FWIW, when it comes to european disc guards, I would consider a small-sword guard qualifies, even if it adds a knuckle bow.
The points about comfort for wearing and keeping an opponent's blade
further from the hand makes sense. However, it should be remembered
that this particular type of dao, the oxtail dao, was (with a few
exceptions) pretty much only a civilian weapon, which would kind of
reinforce the point about comfort. That being said, being a civilian
weapon, it would have been unlikely that this type of dao would
encounter spears or other pole-arms. Additionally, regarding the use of
a rim to increase strength, wouldn't it be easier to simply make a
thicker flat disc than to go out of your way to make a thin outer rim (i
could be totally wrong about that)? Finally, looking at surviving
examples of different dao, it seems like the upturned rim tends to be
noticeably more pronounced on oxtail dao, compared to other types of dao
where they tend to have (shorter?) rims, or even no rim at all. I
don't know why that might be, and in fact, that pattern might not even
be representative of reality as i haven't seen a huge number of
surviving dao, it's just something i've noticed.
In my opinion, it's pure physics. This arrangement is still light and therefore much more impact resistant than flat disc. A heavily sharpened blade hitting such guard gets stuck and chipped instead of slice from it. I think it also gives a slight chance to catch some trusts . In addition its prevents dust and moisture from getting into the scabard.
I wrote this comment before view video
I legitimately have almost no idea, but in Kung Fu we put two hands on the hilt for some moves and pushed. For that move pushing on the cup surface feels good. You can push on the back of the cup much more comfortably than the back of the blade.
As a smith, I can say that guard would be pretty hard to make, but it would make a much more rigid and light weight guard (Like an I-Beam, or a fuller for the guard).
I imagine it actually being less effective at binding with two edges for the weapon to bind against. I also imagine it acting as a liability when catching a point. You're much more likely to be disarmed by a thrust that is cup-caught than any other way (unless you're actually catching tall grass or sticks).
Lastly, the fact that it's on a slashy sword tells me that there was a problem with the previous, thinner guard. The best as I can see, if they are used against slashy weapons which might hit above their weight class, this forms a much better alternative.
13:00 That seems very plausible, but I'm not to sure about the efficiency of such a move. The jian was a thrusting weapon if you look at masters of the weapon use it, so it would make sense that the Chinese would come up with a counter to that.
That said, such a small rim (compared to a shield) and being a slashing weapon might discourage trying to catch the weapon, so I'm not at all certain.
The idea about cheap metal guard makes sense, since to break it you’ll have to get through the extra structure, thus enabling cheaper guards.
Mark Wildman trains with the Dao, you could ask him. That would be a great collaboration video.
It's probably a dust cover for the blade when it's in the scabbard. Occam's razor.
a old Chinese fable, Matt . Prevent the hand from cover in blood and guts, to hold the sword tight
All of the above. Excellent analysis as usual, thank you!
Thrust protection is the first thing that popped into my mind. It moves the opponent's blade further away from your hand as well.
You look good swinging and strafing with that sword. I want one
Also, if you keep those cup rims fairly sharp, they can lock a sharp blade in place and keep it from sliding as you close in. (I imagine)
The first three reasons of practicality are those I came up with independently before watching the video so those seem very reasonable to me.
but it seems possible it may have originally been implemented for one or several of those or otherreasons, but maybe stayed popular for all of them.
First thing I immediately thought one useful feature was protection from thrust attacks. But I agree on all your points, the rim add a lot of features adding minimal weight. Then, could another reason be to avoid blood to reach user hand? Blood will inevitably flow down into the cup, ending up being stuck there, so I wonder if that’s an intended effect or an unavoidable collateral. Admittedly adding some perforations would have prevented this, but this solution would also reduce in the process some degree of waterproof protection fir the scabbard, I don’t know ...
Great rimming vid, Matt!
It could also work as a dual liquid guard. Rain from the blade while in sheath and rain/liquid from the hand while being used. Odds are more likely it was designed to fulfill all the reasons as a well rounded and effective weapon making it useful and practical
I think your last thought of catching points is the correct one, it's always been my assumption. Rainguard seems next most likely. All of the ideas have some merit though I think comfort is the least likely.
Its also possible that it was done simply for aesthetic reasons. A general (especially a chinese general, who generally wouldve been deeply involved in political/courtly matters) might want their soldiers arms and armor to look good in order to inspire/garner support from bystanders/future recruits. Such things are still done to this day with the dress wear of modern militaries.
Deeeffffinitely would like that Mongol swords video asap!!
i agree with most your points but i think the main reason is
if your fighting a chinese longsword with a broadsword you want a cup hilt or when you deflect a stab they will draw it back across your hand in a flash, their quite sharp on edges and very maneuverable
fighting a chinese longsword is a lot like fighting a saber
would you want to fight a saber without a basket or cup hilt ? :P
theirs other weapons like spears javalins & knives where i can say from personal experience even shell hilts can catch them relatively regularly i use mine almost like a small targe (i have a bastardized knife hilt with a shell guard with a sword catching hook on each corner of shell on my main hand & half sword[yes i know theirs not many historical examples of such a hilt except maybe the 1600s]) but i think the main reason for it is chinese longswords
After watching this video and reading the comments, I think this design is genius. Cheap to manufacture too.
The Nan-Dao has two opposite hooks, with a sphere over it.
The nan dao is ahistorical as far as im aware. Its a scaled up butterfly sword.
@@AlIskanderZhao Yeah, it's so "ahystorical" that there are full wushu combat routines for it.
@@WexMajor82 Yeah there are full modern performance wushu routines for it because it was created for modern performance wushu in the late 20th century.
It's not really a secret that the nan dao is a modern invention for performance wushu competition. It's pretty widely known and written about. There are even interviews with some of the pioneers of modern performance wushu describing the process of it's invention for the PRC's modern performance wushu program.
@@TeaSerpent thanks for clarifying