So, what can I say about today's episode in relation to the novel? 2:52 Cao Cao devises a clever trick to disrupt Wen Chou's army: he lets his horses run free, causing Wen Chou's men to break formation to try to plunder them. Zhang Liao and Xu Huang try to chase down Wen Chou, but it's [the mystery warrior] who makes the kill. 3:00 Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa? 5:12 It doesn't go quite this smoothly. In fact the whole "mysterious warrior" bit is original to the game; they know it was Guan Yu before sending out Wen Chou. Yuan Shao almost has Liu Bei executed after Yan Liang wass killed, but Liu Bei talks him out of it by pointing out they don't know for certain it was actually Guan Yu's doing and not some other guy with a ruddy face and huge beard. When Wen Chou is killed, Liu Bei is able to actually see Guan Yu and confirm it's really him, which, again, gets Yuan Shao demanding he be executed. Liu Bei, again, is able to talk him down, this time by pointing out this was Cao Cao's scheme -- to use Guan Yu to turn Yuan Shao against Liu Bei. Liu Bei then tells him Guan Yu will cover to their side if he knows his sworn brother is there, Yuan Shao replies, "Getting Lord Guan would be worth more to me than ten Yan Liangs or Wen Chous." 5:38 While there are various forms of sorcery in the novel, I don't recall anything like that ever coming up. 5:43 Yep! The wives kinda come out of nowhere just like in the game, although they do so earlier than this. Lady Mi is Mi Zhu's sister. I think that's the guy whose name was romanized "Mi Zhe" in the first game. I'm pretty sure polygamy was a historical thing too, but I'm mostly here to talk about the novel. 6:24 Good question! The ambush out of Xuzhou in Episodes 05-06 didn't happen, but it seems to be loosely based on a similar event. Liu Bei and Zhang Fei try to raid Cao Cao's camp, but are anticipated and ambushed. They flee in different directions, with Liu Bei running directly to Yuan Shao. Guan Yu is not with them; he was assigned to defend the town of Xiapi, along with Liu Bei's wives. Cao Cao admires Guan Yu and hopes to convert him to his service. Cheng Yu, from last episode, develops the plan. First they manage to provoke him into leaving the city to attack, then cut off his retreat and drive him to a hilltop, where they surround him. Then they send Zhang Liao, a man Guan Yu admires, to try to persuade him. He's a good choice, because he's able to put things into terms Guan Yu can't argue with: dying here may make a gloriously heroic last stand in the short term, but in the long term it won't let him fulfil his obligations to Liu Bei or to the Han. In reply, Guan Yu gives three conditions for his surrender. I'll just quote the text directly here: "First," Guan Yu said, "the imperial uncle, Liu Bei, and I have sworn to uphold the house of Han. I shall surrender to the Emperor, not to Cao Cao. Second, I request for my two sisters-in-law the consideration befitting an imperial uncle's wives. No one, however high his station, is to approach their gate. And third, the moment we learn of Imperial Uncle Liu's whereabouts, no matter how far away he may be, I shall depart forthwith. Denied any of these conditions, I shall not surrender. Please return to Cao Cao with my terms." The terms are accepted, and Guan Yu fights for Cao Cao for a while. Cao Cao does his best to butter him up: gifting him various treasures, beautiful women, and gorgeous silk sack for his beard, hosting a small banquet for him every third day and a large one every fifth day, and most notably, presenting him the late (still alive in the game though) Lu Bu's Red Hare horse (English for Chì Tù mǎ), which he immediately realizes was a mistake when Guan Yu gushes over how quickly he'll be able to reach Liu Bei riding it. When Guan Yu leaves, he orders all his servants to leave all of Cao Cao's gifts behind, "even the least trifle," but he keeps the horse. 6:35 He can't just dip out on him, that'd be rude! Or as Guan Yu explains it, "I came to Cao Cao open and aboveboard and can leave him no other way." He tried to inform Cao Cao in person, but Cao Cao, anticipating this, hung an "Absent" sign on his door. Guan Yu settled for sending him a message, which was probably worse for Cao Cao because he couldn't react in time to stop him. 8:57 More of this game being surprisingly faithful -- Guan Yu does rest for a night at a farmstead, owned by a retired old counselor named Hu Hua, and leaves with a letter for his son Hu Ban. Shortly after he reaches Dongling Pass, guarded by Kong Xiu. Kong Xiu demands proof of Cao Cao's approval, which Guan Yu doesn't have, then he demands Liu Bei's wives be left "as security," at which point things turn violent. One thing they left out: Cao Cao did catch up to Guan Yu after he left but before he reached Hu Hua's farmstead. He made one last attempt to ply him with gifts, but pointedly does not give him the papers that would have let him through the checkpoints. According to one commentator, "Should a pass comander have killed him, Cao Cao could have preserved his reputation for cherishing able men by blaming the officer for wrongly taking Lord Guan's life." So yeah, this part of the game is really accurate to the novel! I've always admired how this game stretches the boundaries of the Dragon Quest clone template to do something less generic. They didn't have to include this level of detail, but they did, and you can see how much they respect the source mat...er...hang on. 8:34 Nope. Nope nope nope nope, this part is wrong. It specifically says Guan Yu left by the _north_ gate. And Kong Xiu confronted Guan Yu with five hundred men, not three hundred twenty! (Or seven hundred twenty, however you want to count them). How do you screw up that up, it's _right there_ in the text! AAAAAUUUGH!!!!
Continuing to find out if the mysterious warrior is Penry the mild mannered janitor! 2:51 - 2:57 - So much for that plan. 3:00 - Dunduuun!!! 9:52 - 10:15 - Papers this!
Wah?! Lord Guanyu??? It is funny to see Liu Bei address his younger sworn brother as lord, haha. But in folklore religion, Guan Yu is widely referred to as Lord Guan...
(2:01) That was silly how the foe missed a couple times there, when you just wanted to get hit and advance the plot. It would've been super silly if he just kept missing over and over while you whittled down his soldiers, which probably would've caused the game's story to go off the rails and perhaps softlock if you had won that battle.
Liu Bei's wives are probably more numerous than what records have; at this point just Gan and Mi as we see around 6:30) though I'm reminded of a hilarious moment that is usually not addressed because it makes Liu Bei out to be a dick Zhao Yun saves his son, Liu Shan from Cao Cao's forces at Chang Ban, who I think would've been one of his firstborn and thus important, but Liu Bei throws the baby down in anger afterwards since somehow the baby is to blame for the possibility of one of his best soldiers potentially dying, (even though he volunteered to do it), Zhao Yun saving the kid quickly. Lot of political marriages involved here, not unlike Muhammad of Islam, though that's a much more prickly subject
Lord Guan Yu was lost in the unfair fight with the swarming army of Cao Cao. He surrendered to Cao Cao on conditions that he would go to his brothers once he had their whereabouts. Cao Cao agreed his terms and treated him with utmost respect. To repay Cao Cao's generosity, Guan Yu slew Yuan Shao's (Cao Cao's enemy) two formidable generals. Then on the battlefield, Guan Yu learned that his brother Liu Bei was now with Yuan Shao. So he decided to leave Cao Cao for reunion with his brothers. The Chinese saying "His body is in (Cao) Cao's camp, but his heart is actually with the Han (dynasty). This saying highlights Lord Guan's loyalty to his sworn brothers and Han dynasty.
That does seem rather odd. Even if one were to construe that Guan Yu was not part of the petition against Cao Cao, he still has the utmost loyalty to the Han Dynasty, which is against Cao Cao's ambitions. It would seem like a major tactical error to allow someone as powerful and intelligent as Guan Yu to simply switch sides.
@@HCBailly Despite that they were on different sides, Cao Cao respected Guan's character and prowess, so he captured Guan but didn't want to see him die. Guan wished to die unless Cao Cao agreed with his surrender terms. There were three terms: Guan surrders to Han, not Cao Cao (Cao Cao was the prime minister or regent at least on the surface); Liu Bei's wives must be respected and provided; Once Liu Bei was found, he would leave. Cao Cao had no choice but to agree. He knew Liu Bei was lost in battle and probably had died already. So he wanted to keep Guan alive and win over Guan with his gifts, favor, respect, and patience. But still, Guan repaid him with his performance on battle (killed Yan Liang and Wen Chou) before he found Liu Bei's whereabouts and decided to leave. After all, it is romance, we enjoy it just like an epic story like Iliad or king Arthur stories. It was this complex link (mutual respect and understanding) between great warlords and heroes that captivate the readers, though some warlords seem to be depicted as villains.
@@HCBailly Name was the key in ancient China because people would like to tell bad from good. If Cao Cao (prime minister) did things in the name of the court, Han Dynasty, then it means authority and righteousness. So Cao Cao had to play his role to win the hearts of people, though he might have the intention to usurp. That's why Guan could survive because he said he only surrenders to Han, not Cao Cao. Cao Cao was not happy, but he couldn't kill Guan for getting a bad name.
Polygamy has far more precedence than the nonsense that "traditional" marriage was always a man and a woman, which frankly only really took off probably in the 11th century. Of course there was always monogamy as a virtue for some people, but the importance of assuring your lineage often trumped any sense of respect for women's agency that wasn't a half hearted attempt rooted in misogyny anyway (like, "Oh yeah, that woman's cool because she fights like a man!"). Concubines' children could be considered legitimate if all the children of wives were wiped out, which is where a lot of the infighting and wanton slaughter tends to focus on and this applies to virtually any culture, just with variations on things like primogeniture (right of the firstborn) or even stuff like which line had priority (matrilineal or patrilineal), which often was linked to royalty anyway. Heck, the Old Testament has many examples, especially the further back you go. Ishmael would've been the favored child had Isaac not been born, since Abraham's wife was supposedly barren (but not really, because magic!)
So, what can I say about today's episode in relation to the novel?
2:52 Cao Cao devises a clever trick to disrupt Wen Chou's army: he lets his horses run free, causing Wen Chou's men to break formation to try to plunder them. Zhang Liao and Xu Huang try to chase down Wen Chou, but it's [the mystery warrior] who makes the kill.
3:00 Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
5:12 It doesn't go quite this smoothly. In fact the whole "mysterious warrior" bit is original to the game; they know it was Guan Yu before sending out Wen Chou. Yuan Shao almost has Liu Bei executed after Yan Liang wass killed, but Liu Bei talks him out of it by pointing out they don't know for certain it was actually Guan Yu's doing and not some other guy with a ruddy face and huge beard.
When Wen Chou is killed, Liu Bei is able to actually see Guan Yu and confirm it's really him, which, again, gets Yuan Shao demanding he be executed. Liu Bei, again, is able to talk him down, this time by pointing out this was Cao Cao's scheme -- to use Guan Yu to turn Yuan Shao against Liu Bei.
Liu Bei then tells him Guan Yu will cover to their side if he knows his sworn brother is there, Yuan Shao replies, "Getting Lord Guan would be worth more to me than ten Yan Liangs or Wen Chous."
5:38 While there are various forms of sorcery in the novel, I don't recall anything like that ever coming up.
5:43 Yep! The wives kinda come out of nowhere just like in the game, although they do so earlier than this. Lady Mi is Mi Zhu's sister. I think that's the guy whose name was romanized "Mi Zhe" in the first game. I'm pretty sure polygamy was a historical thing too, but I'm mostly here to talk about the novel.
6:24 Good question!
The ambush out of Xuzhou in Episodes 05-06 didn't happen, but it seems to be loosely based on a similar event. Liu Bei and Zhang Fei try to raid Cao Cao's camp, but are anticipated and ambushed. They flee in different directions, with Liu Bei running directly to Yuan Shao. Guan Yu is not with them; he was assigned to defend the town of Xiapi, along with Liu Bei's wives.
Cao Cao admires Guan Yu and hopes to convert him to his service. Cheng Yu, from last episode, develops the plan. First they manage to provoke him into leaving the city to attack, then cut off his retreat and drive him to a hilltop, where they surround him. Then they send Zhang Liao, a man Guan Yu admires, to try to persuade him. He's a good choice, because he's able to put things into terms Guan Yu can't argue with: dying here may make a gloriously heroic last stand in the short term, but in the long term it won't let him fulfil his obligations to Liu Bei or to the Han.
In reply, Guan Yu gives three conditions for his surrender. I'll just quote the text directly here:
"First," Guan Yu said, "the imperial uncle, Liu Bei, and I have sworn to uphold the house of Han. I shall surrender to the Emperor, not to Cao Cao. Second, I request for my two sisters-in-law the consideration befitting an imperial uncle's wives. No one, however high his station, is to approach their gate. And third, the moment we learn of Imperial Uncle Liu's whereabouts, no matter how far away he may be, I shall depart forthwith. Denied any of these conditions, I shall not surrender. Please return to Cao Cao with my terms."
The terms are accepted, and Guan Yu fights for Cao Cao for a while. Cao Cao does his best to butter him up: gifting him various treasures, beautiful women, and gorgeous silk sack for his beard, hosting a small banquet for him every third day and a large one every fifth day, and most notably, presenting him the late (still alive in the game though) Lu Bu's Red Hare horse (English for Chì Tù mǎ), which he immediately realizes was a mistake when Guan Yu gushes over how quickly he'll be able to reach Liu Bei riding it.
When Guan Yu leaves, he orders all his servants to leave all of Cao Cao's gifts behind, "even the least trifle," but he keeps the horse.
6:35 He can't just dip out on him, that'd be rude! Or as Guan Yu explains it, "I came to Cao Cao open and aboveboard and can leave him no other way." He tried to inform Cao Cao in person, but Cao Cao, anticipating this, hung an "Absent" sign on his door. Guan Yu settled for sending him a message, which was probably worse for Cao Cao because he couldn't react in time to stop him.
8:57 More of this game being surprisingly faithful -- Guan Yu does rest for a night at a farmstead, owned by a retired old counselor named Hu Hua, and leaves with a letter for his son Hu Ban. Shortly after he reaches Dongling Pass, guarded by Kong Xiu. Kong Xiu demands proof of Cao Cao's approval, which Guan Yu doesn't have, then he demands Liu Bei's wives be left "as security," at which point things turn violent.
One thing they left out: Cao Cao did catch up to Guan Yu after he left but before he reached Hu Hua's farmstead. He made one last attempt to ply him with gifts, but pointedly does not give him the papers that would have let him through the checkpoints. According to one commentator, "Should a pass comander have killed him, Cao Cao could have preserved his reputation for cherishing able men by blaming the officer for wrongly taking Lord Guan's life."
So yeah, this part of the game is really accurate to the novel! I've always admired how this game stretches the boundaries of the Dragon Quest clone template to do something less generic. They didn't have to include this level of detail, but they did, and you can see how much they respect the source mat...er...hang on.
8:34 Nope. Nope nope nope nope, this part is wrong. It specifically says Guan Yu left by the _north_ gate. And Kong Xiu confronted Guan Yu with five hundred men, not three hundred twenty! (Or seven hundred twenty, however you want to count them). How do you screw up that up, it's _right there_ in the text! AAAAAUUUGH!!!!
How dare they mess with the direction of the gate and the number of the army!
These plot writeups are amazing, thank you for doing them, and I appreciate the amount of effort involved.
Okay, I'm completely on board with the boss music now
I really like how this game tells the story. It's unique among its peers!
I always remember what HCBailly said about jPRGs like 10 years ago...
News always travels faster than you.
Damn he hits hard 😅
Take two against the Mysterious warrior
Continuing to find out if the mysterious warrior is Penry the mild mannered janitor!
2:51 - 2:57 - So much for that plan.
3:00 - Dunduuun!!!
9:52 - 10:15 - Papers this!
Wah?! Lord Guanyu??? It is funny to see Liu Bei address his younger sworn brother as lord, haha. But in folklore religion, Guan Yu is widely referred to as Lord Guan...
(2:01) That was silly how the foe missed a couple times there, when you just wanted to get hit and advance the plot. It would've been super silly if he just kept missing over and over while you whittled down his soldiers, which probably would've caused the game's story to go off the rails and perhaps softlock if you had won that battle.
Liu Bei's wives are probably more numerous than what records have; at this point just Gan and Mi as we see around 6:30) though I'm reminded of a hilarious moment that is usually not addressed because it makes Liu Bei out to be a dick
Zhao Yun saves his son, Liu Shan from Cao Cao's forces at Chang Ban, who I think would've been one of his firstborn and thus important, but Liu Bei throws the baby down in anger afterwards since somehow the baby is to blame for the possibility of one of his best soldiers potentially dying, (even though he volunteered to do it), Zhao Yun saving the kid quickly. Lot of political marriages involved here, not unlike Muhammad of Islam, though that's a much more prickly subject
Lord Guan Yu was lost in the unfair fight with the swarming army of Cao Cao. He surrendered to Cao Cao on conditions that he would go to his brothers once he had their whereabouts. Cao Cao agreed his terms and treated him with utmost respect. To repay Cao Cao's generosity, Guan Yu slew Yuan Shao's (Cao Cao's enemy) two formidable generals. Then on the battlefield, Guan Yu learned that his brother Liu Bei was now with Yuan Shao. So he decided to leave Cao Cao for reunion with his brothers. The Chinese saying "His body is in (Cao) Cao's camp, but his heart is actually with the Han (dynasty). This saying highlights Lord Guan's loyalty to his sworn brothers and Han dynasty.
That does seem rather odd. Even if one were to construe that Guan Yu was not part of the petition against Cao Cao, he still has the utmost loyalty to the Han Dynasty, which is against Cao Cao's ambitions. It would seem like a major tactical error to allow someone as powerful and intelligent as Guan Yu to simply switch sides.
@@HCBailly Despite that they were on different sides, Cao Cao respected Guan's character and prowess, so he captured Guan but didn't want to see him die. Guan wished to die unless Cao Cao agreed with his surrender terms. There were three terms: Guan surrders to Han, not Cao Cao (Cao Cao was the prime minister or regent at least on the surface); Liu Bei's wives must be respected and provided; Once Liu Bei was found, he would leave. Cao Cao had no choice but to agree. He knew Liu Bei was lost in battle and probably had died already. So he wanted to keep Guan alive and win over Guan with his gifts, favor, respect, and patience. But still, Guan repaid him with his performance on battle (killed Yan Liang and Wen Chou) before he found Liu Bei's whereabouts and decided to leave.
After all, it is romance, we enjoy it just like an epic story like Iliad or king Arthur stories. It was this complex link (mutual respect and understanding) between great warlords and heroes that captivate the readers, though some warlords seem to be depicted as villains.
@@HCBailly Name was the key in ancient China because people would like to tell bad from good. If Cao Cao (prime minister) did things in the name of the court, Han Dynasty, then it means authority and righteousness. So Cao Cao had to play his role to win the hearts of people, though he might have the intention to usurp. That's why Guan could survive because he said he only surrenders to Han, not Cao Cao. Cao Cao was not happy, but he couldn't kill Guan for getting a bad name.
Yes back then Roality had multiple wives
:)
Words
Everytime King Henri makes the introduction of a game and it ends with "two!" I keep expecting him to follow up with "Rise of the Sinistrals".
Polygamy has far more precedence than the nonsense that "traditional" marriage was always a man and a woman, which frankly only really took off probably in the 11th century. Of course there was always monogamy as a virtue for some people, but the importance of assuring your lineage often trumped any sense of respect for women's agency that wasn't a half hearted attempt rooted in misogyny anyway (like, "Oh yeah, that woman's cool because she fights like a man!").
Concubines' children could be considered legitimate if all the children of wives were wiped out, which is where a lot of the infighting and wanton slaughter tends to focus on and this applies to virtually any culture, just with variations on things like primogeniture (right of the firstborn) or even stuff like which line had priority (matrilineal or patrilineal), which often was linked to royalty anyway. Heck, the Old Testament has many examples, especially the further back you go. Ishmael would've been the favored child had Isaac not been born, since Abraham's wife was supposedly barren (but not really, because magic!)