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Do motorbike neck braces work? What the research says︱Cross Training Enduro
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ม.ค. 2019
- Neck braces for enduro, motocross and dirt riding in general! Should you get one? Do they really work? How much do they reduce neck injuries? And which particular injuries? There are no black and white answers with neck braces, but this vid might help you to decide. The age old question with any protection is how much to wear? So first you need to look at your type of riding, skill level, how often you like to run into trees or hit the ground, and at what speed. There are online discussions about neck braces causing other injuries but I can't find any evidence to back up these claims. If you ride in hot weather, you will probably notice a bit less airflow with a brace around your neck. With a bit of luck we might see some decent independent research on neck braces with high tech crash test dummies, great methodology and specifically applied to various types of dirt riding.
NECK BRACE BIBLIOGRAPHY
ibrc.osu.edu/w...
trid.trb.org/v...
www.researchga...
leatt-cms-imag...
www.ncbi.nlm.n...
www.directmotoc...
One study showed 10% of motocross injuries in motocross are neck and upper spine fractures. Whereas a study of enduro competitors found no spinal fractures at all, just mild strains which only accounted for 5% of total injuries. It found no significant effect although they did note they only tested at one specific impact and angle of orientation, and that more research was needed. Now that's actual racers, so slower everyday riders will probably have even less spinal injuries. And anecdotal evidence suggests the faster you ride, the more likely you are to have a neck injury. So what are the drawbacks of neck braces? Some riders hate the restricted movement, others don't notice it after the first hour. Do neck braces work? First we are only talking about neck braces, not these flimsy neck collars... these might keep the sun off your neck but will do little else according to the research. Second, we won't rely on anecdotal evidence. They also commented that the gap between the helmet and neck brace could be an important consideration. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of money available for high quality research with big sample groups and high tech dummies so read all the research you can and make your own conclusions. So let's look at the pros and cons. It appears speed is a big factor. Neck braces are way more common in desert racing and motocross, compared to enduro riding. Some riders say they find it very uncomfortable, others say they barely notice it. And of course it's a bit of extra weight. Do neck braces break collarbones? There's no hard evidence for this, but if it's because of a transfer of the impact I'd go for a broken collarbone than a broken neck any day. For example, a guy lands head first into a whoop and says without his neck brace he would have been dead or paralysed. Anecdotal evidence is extremely unreliable, we'll try to rely on more solid research. First, this informal report from basic statistics gathered by emergency services personnel. It makes the most positive claims for neck braces based on a lot of accidents but unfortunately the methodology isn't very good from a research angle. Personally I think it needs analysis and interpretation from experts. A white paper from Leatt, creator of the first motorbike-specific neck brace. I'll go out on a limb here and say there is probably limited evidence for neck braces working, at least if your helmet is within 5cm of the brace and your helmet works well with your neck brace and existing body armour. The methodology is much better in this study, but of course there's the potential for a lot of bias here. Not surprisingly, the report found Leatt neck braces do work in preventing or reducing injury. It would be good to see this paper published in a peer reviewed journal, this would give it the stamp of approval from independent sources but no luck so far. It's also very interesting that Acerbis did a study on neck braces but never released it. I wonder why... So.... Confused about neck braces? I am. Next this properly independent study said their results were unclear and they felt the dummy being used in all tests so far needs to be replaced with a better model to really prove neck braces work. Another independent study showed neck braces had a moderate effect but only if the gap between the helmet and neck brace was less than 5cm.
#crosstrainingenduro #crosstrainingenduroskills #enduro #tractionerag #neckbraces
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IMPORTANT UPDATES! Leatt's own testing reported their neck braces vary from an alleged 17 to 46% effectiveness depending on the type of impact. See this chart. bit.ly/3C7pdyt
BEWARE OF FAKE NECK BRACES Shot Racing incorrectly calls their race collar a 'neck brace'. Research shows race collars do not work. Some dodgy retailers are claiming the EVS race collar is a 'neck brace' on their websites.
DISCLAIMER Do your own research. This video is only raising discussion points on the existing research. We make no warranties or representations regarding the content and suitability of this information for any purpose. Read our full disclaimer here: bit.ly/3JqGOp4
ENSURE CORRECT FITTING OF NECK BRACE: One research says there should be a maximum of a 5cm gap between the helmet and brace for the brace to work effectively. bit.ly/3BjP8nL
OUR COMPLETE NECK BRACE SERIES: bit.ly/34PzzYX
FURTHER READING
I put the EMS report last as many say it's not a true study (see details below). I put Leatt's report second last as Dr Leatt makes braces himself, so the chances of personal bias are high.
smarter-usa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/The-Efficacy-of-a-Motocross-Neck-Brace-in-Reducing-Injury.pdf
www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13588265.2012.700097
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4617221/
www.researchgate.net/publication/304101101_Finite_Element_Simulation_of_Neck_Brace_Protective_Equipment_for_Motorcycle_Riders
leatt-cms-image.s3.amazonaws.com/2.3.4+White+Paper.pdf
www.actionsportsems.com/safetystudies
CRITICISM OF THE MUCH DEBATED EMS 'STUDY'!
This report created a lot of controversy. Some think it proves beyond doubt that neck braces work. Many of us think it's a seriously flawed report. Please read this viewer's comment from bpastorb...
"Sad to see so many MX riders believe that Great Lakes study to be factual information. Someone puts out some 'statistics', some fancy bar graphs then people believe it must be true because they don't know how to actually interpret the information. I am sorry to tell people but it's not a proper scientific study, not even close. The way in which they formed their final statistics and presented them should make anyone extremely hesitant in believing anything they have to say. I have read (and it would make sense) that the study was funded by the manufacturers of neck braces. I can't say that is true for sure but the results ended up being extremely beneficial for them. I initially believed it was a good attempt at putting more science into the topic of neck braces but it's quite the opposite and could be damaging to the sport if no further/better research is done now.
The major major problem with any information they used is that they did not have sample sizes. They did not have a way, create a way, or even try to guess a way at determining extremely vital information. People think of it as unimportant but it is extremely important to determine any sort of statistical analysis like they went ahead and did.
We know they recorded a period of time, and a certain amount of crashes. What they did not tell us is how many riders in the entire population were wearing neck braces compared to not wearing them. For example lets say you have a group of riders you watch for 10 years to see their injuries. 100 of them wear neck braces, 400 of them do not. Over 10 years, assuming neck braces were negligible to safety, did not harm people nor help them - You would expect to see 4 times as many spinal/neck injuries in the riders that did not wear neck braces, simply because there were 4 times as many of them. That would put neck braces exactly equal statistically compared with not wearing one, even though the amount of riders who got neck injuries was higher. Although 4 times as many riders were injured without the neck braces, since there were 4 times as many of them to begin with, the percentage of having a neck injury while crashing would be the same if you chose to wear one or not.
If you have the same sample group and record them over 10 years and only 1/8 of the crashes resulting in neck injuries were by the riders wearing the neck braces, then that would provide legitimate evidence that neck braces make you safer. It would mean that riders wearing a neck brace were half as likely to get a neck injury compared to riders that did not wear one.
Les say we have the same sample group but 40% of the neck injuries were riders wearing neck braces, and 60% were those not wearing braces. Someone might think 'hey, that still means neck braces make you safer right?' You could make a bar graph and pose this information as such (that is essentially what the great lakes ems team did). The truth of the statistics is that even though 60% of the neck injuries were riders not wearing one, it actually means they still had less overall neck injuries than riders that were wearing one in terms of a percentage. Meaning neck braces would cause more injuries than they prevent, even though numerically more riders were injured that weren't wearing one.
Long story short is that the information from the study means nothing without knowing how many total riders were wearing the neck braces and how many total riders were not wearing the neck braces. We all know that the majority of riders do not wear them, meaning the results were very obviously skewed towards riders getting injuries who don't wear them. That is to be expected to a degree.
The only major takeaway from that study is that wearing a neck brace almost for sure DOES cause increased risk of clavical/collarbone injuries. Since more riders ride without a brace and more collarbone injuries are from riders wearing the braces, you can almost for sure say that the braces increase your risk. Again it's impossible to say that for sure, or by how much without knowing totals or sample sizes."
Hi I was wondering if u have any suggestions on some good riding pants
I love you upside down man
@Dillon Ferguson - th-cam.com/video/xm4E6AIQ3UM/w-d-xo.html / crosstrainingenduro.com/cross-training-techniques/dirt-riding-protective-gear.htm
@@MR0birdman thanks mate
I'd recommend you remove this completely random criticism of the EMS study. It's very odd to assert it is not 'factual' when it is an analysis of a large number of actual casualties. Furthermore there is extended criticism of the paper for not controlling for those with and without braces on. This is factually incorrect and suggests the reviewer has not read the paper at all. For what it's worth, it states 9430 patient reports of which 8529 have neck brace/no neck brace data, of which 4726 report NO to neck brace, while 3803 report YES.
I just wrap my neck and head in bubble wrap. If anything, the popping sounds the bubbles make when they brake is really cool.
that is SUCH a cool idea, i shall test this and do a vid if i survive! 🥰
I had a buddy who wore bubble wrap and endoed on a double trying to light a cigarette all good saved his life.
This is a great idea. Also, if you decide to take a riding holiday abroad, you’re all set to be shipped!
Anecdotal but true...my buddy crashed on his YZ450 and broke his collar bone, seven ribs on his back and four in the front. Doc said if he wasn’t wearing a neck brace he probably would be dead or paralyzed. Who cares if the research isn’t isn’t peer reviewed by a legion of scientists. My friend is walking and riding again.
That's great to hear
Hay Barry, I am the only guy I’m my group of regular riders who wears a neck brace. Do i notice it - no. Is it uncomfortable - don’t know have ridden with it since starting to ride. Do I feel unprotected if it not there - yes forgot it once and I rode for 5 min and then went home.
Why do I wear it? I make both my kids wear them so I wear one. How do you convince kids to wear all the gear all the time if you aren’t prepared to wear it as well.
Hi Barry, I agree there needs more independent research, but as a researcher I know the reality is that it will take a long time to do. In the meantime I think riders need to take as many precautions as possible to limit injuries and increase their ride time and years. I have 3 compressed disks in my neck and wouldn't ride without my neck brace. I am late 60's and ride technical stuff most, but do get on the gas with the young lads when they suck me in ... so there is no way you can plan to crash at low or fast speeds, shyte just happens. Always enjoy your thought though. Cheers Terry
I don't understand the "enduro is slower and safer for the neck" mentality. Trees are everywhere here and they, as well as the ground, are tougher than me.
Ive worn one for last 3 years and think they're great even for low speed wrecks. They're expensive but worth it and once setup very unobtrusive. I see lots of riders not using them but they usually don't wear any other protective gear either.
Safety gear also advised when telling wife what you paid for them.
😅
You know what those woman expect you to pay for a rock on a metal ring?
I was a crash test dummy 2 weeks ago. Broke 4 vertebrae in my back and 1 rib. Neck was badly bruised but no brakes. Got a log at slow speed but landed upside down on the back of my neck. The doctors and now my physio all said I was very lucky I was wearing a neck brace and body armour as it could have been a lot worse in there option.
I will be updating my neck brace and body armour ( they had to cut it off) as I’m sure they helped. That’s just my opinion of course but it is a real world one.
Ouch. How long are the predicting before you'll be healed up again? It was a year for me, and that was just mild fractures. Most of the time I try to use my Zac Speed backpack that has some sold rubber padding for the back and a chestplate on the front. But when it gets too hot I opt for a much smaller option with no protection at all. Always a tough call when deciding how much protection to use....
I went air born riding a woop at 55 mph straight into a bed of Rocks. I flew over the bars and landed on the right shoulder, broke my collarbone in five pieces and busted my low back and right hip. I now have a titanium plate with nine screws on my right collar done. I had zero pain on my neck I was down for 1 year but thats ok. I'm back on my KTM 350-XCFW and i will always use a neck brace. you cant put a price on your life so a broken collar bone was about 70k after surgery but ill rather pay that, then stop riding.
Gratulation for being back. I crasched 2 month ago. Not that hard, but I am shure without neckbrace it would be worse. I beleave strongly in neckbraces now.
and to barry's point, just because you didn't die or suffer more severe injury doesn't mean the neck did anything. "correlation does not imply causation". only a scientific study can determine. perhaps, you would have suffered less injuries, if you were not wearing a neck brace.
70k of your cash, you guys should have free health care by now.
I consider this a very personal question. On normal commuting I don't use it, for enduro riding at low speed it might not be necessary.
With my enduro I really enjoy adventure travel and I had the great opportunity to ride in Mexico and Central America in the past four years some 46.000 km.
I prefer it fast, but I try to stay within my abilities.
But, if you ride, sooner or later you will touch the ground or hit something else. I just want to stand up after grounding.
Sure there is no absolute safety and most people anyhow die in bed but go there nonetheless.
My personal worst case scenario is being paralyzed. Being paralyzed in the middle of nowwhere and on your own might be even worse. I hope I can handle broken bones and/or cuts. But being paralyzed, no, just no option.
I had a few touch downs where the neck-brace most probably was not critical. But a few weeks ago I had a head-on crash with an unintended forward salto and breaking in the ground with the chin bow of my Arai cross helmet.
Fortunately I didn't hit a rock and the ground was not too hart. So I stood up, rolled over the 690, removed the broken mirrors and carried on. Personally I am convinced the neck-brace saved my neck.
I feel more comfortable with neck-brace.
I really like my EVS neck brace. I would not go out riding without a neck Brace. I barely notice it, but I am used to it. I have never ridden a dirtbike without one... They are definitely worth buying.
I crasched against a Tree and slamed hard to ground. Years ago we did not have Neckbraces and quiet a fewtimes after crashing the Neck did hurt for weeks. Now a had a lot of blue colors on the body and after 2 Month still here and there a little pain. There was clear indication on the helmet that I crasched on the head too. No pain in the neck. Now I am a beleaver in that brace, even in the beginning it was feeling uncomfortable. I think the important point is the gab between helmet should be little, as mentioned. It worked even my helmet is sitting not so tide as it should.
I want to believe they at least help with spinal compression and hyperextension injuries from lawndarting into the ground or trees. Smacking your helmet on overhangs(even slowly) often cause temporary neck injuries and neck braces seem to noticeably reduce those, although you're less likely to spot objects above you with a brace on. Helmet chinstrap must be VERY snug.
Spinal compression is an interesting area, Jesse. I recently had a compression fracture of the T4 vertebra from going over the handlebars and it seems that there's no protective gear that can really protect you from axial loading e.g. force applied straight down or up the spine.
Thanks for the follow up vid on this. I have a Leatt but gave up wearing it. I’m slow and not racing. The restriction of movement didn’t bother me but I found it acted like a cork on my upper body and made me way too hot. The guys I ride with do not use them with one or two exceptions. Most of our falls are low speed tumbles that are more funny than they are painful. Knock on wood. 😀
they don't work. Scam, no evidence.
I had a big ‘off’ at speed in the soft sand at Double Island Point in September. I had full body armour, but no neck brace.
I fractured C6, C7 & T5. Rode the ‘Berg to Rainbow Beach where the ambulance was waiting when the pain subsided sufficiently. (I didn’t know I had a broken neck and back.)
The body armour went a long way to prevent death, or quadriplegia. I do wonder if a neck brace would’ve helped save the neck vertebrae.
I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have even had the accident at all if I had a good steering damper installed.
I haven’t ridden since, still got two numb fingers & elbow and get daily tingles in my back. Hopefully I’ll soon be back in the saddle.
head butted a log on a muddy down hill during an enduro comp, cracked T3, compressed T2, cracked C3 all at about 20kph................never ride with out a neck brace now, had I had a neck brace on that day my injury is likely to have been much less
The neck is a flexi-mount between the shoulders/torso and the cranium. By placing a rigid mount between the shoulder and the cranium, the forces are put on to the first vertebra at the base of the skull, and the appliance becomes a shoulder/torso mounted guillotine. If the "brace" were to be extended further down on the chest and back, and further upward to hold the skull in rigid alignment and position relative to the chest/torso/shoulder, some benefit might be obtained in certain crashes. Some. Might. Certain. Or, in other crashes, some very serious cervical spine injuries might be more certain.
Any science to back this up? Just interested because I went looking for research that might suggest a neck brace could increase the chances of certain injuries e.g. internal decapitation. But I couldn't find any.
in the crash that altered a life i am nt sure i would have a broken neck (3rd spondylum) if it wasn't for the neckbrace.
I have hit the sides of my head before but this time it felt like the neckbrace gave another pivoting point that wasn't there before.
Being uncertain about that, yet still suffer the stiffness of them during a whole race...
not sure i can take a position on this one safely since every injury is different but this is my experience.
the crash is in Romaniacs prologue 2013.
very sorry to hear about your injury, achilleas. 😥 yes i've heard arguments that in some cases neck braces could add a leverage point that might result in worse injuries... there's nothing in the research to back this up, but then there's so little good indepedent research in the first place. lets hope this changes in the future!
Thank you for a no 🐂💩 look into the effectiveness of these braces.
I'm not sold on them yet.
It's a really difficult decision to make when there hasn't been a lot of really comprehensive research. I am sure that occasionally a neck brace has reduced or prevented a serious injury. But in how many cases? Which injuries does it help to prevent? Even Leatt's research said the support of their neck brace dropped quite low for some injuries. How close to the helmet in order to be effective? E.g. one paper said there must be less than a 5cm gap which is very restrictive for enduro riders.
@@crosstrainingenduro Yeah, and I wonder on two occasions whether I would have benefitted with one, though both times left me with just a strained, sore neck. Once was getting tossed from a snowmobile doing about 55mph, landing on my head and shoulder. The other, was on a motorcycle camping trip, dumping the bike on a steep climb. I had a 40 pound backpack on, that flipped me down the hill, which put me in a headstand for a moment, that really cranked on my neck.
I rammed a dirt bank head first about two years ago... at low speed but enough to have a sore neck for a few days. And of course you are just wondering if it might have led to quadraplegia if the angle was slightly different, or the impact a bit greater.
@@crosstrainingenduro That's EXACTLY my fear!
Thanks for doing the legwork on this topic.
a pleasure unga. hopefully one day soon we'll have really good independent research that can 100% nail down how effective neck braces are....
I got one for a Rallye event because it is obligatory. I'm more confident riding at high speeds with my neckbrace, but I hope I never have to find out whether it protects me or not...
I tried to get work as a test dummy when the recession hit. They asked for a video application. So I sent some videos of me jumping through walls, shooting a bottle rocket from my rectum, eating a maggot, wearing makeup into a gay bar, licking a frozen pole, riding enduro. I didn't get the job. They said I wasn't a dummy, but I was an idiot.
😂
Really live my EVS neck brace...the fancier one, not the foam collar. I tried the Leatt brace but it would not hold still and my helmet could not make decent contact. I have NOT had a neck strain SINCE riding with my EVS two years ago. My head is the size of Pluto and I like it holding still in my many crashes
Great vid. Lots of chat about that here in BC recently Barry, maybe something more solid to come in erag?
i hope so, russ 👍
On the track, most of the guys using neck braces have switched to airbags, I wonder if same will happen off the road.
Personally, as an older rider I feel safer and more comfortable with my foam neck brace, especially on big day rides.
I managed to knock my front and side teeth out in a high speed crash. The helmet managed to move up just enough for me to eat gravel. Yes, even a properly fitted helmet. The neck brace does help for high speed diggers for me.
ouch. hope you healed up okay jesse.
I solved this by having no neck . Fat melon attached straight to shoulders - sorted
the bouncer/dirt rider 😆
I have noticed that this year a lot of Dakar riders don't seem to be wearing them, which surprised me because I thought it was mandatory.
might be wearing airbags instead david? i'm not sure what the requirements are or what is allowed
Perhaps
Don't get me wrong, my kids all wear the Atlas neck braces. They don't complain at all and are 6-14 yrs of age. Now my question is - If these are more valuable at higher speeds...why do we not see these in WSBK or MotoGP??
some interesting online debates about this chris. neck braces were popular in supercross for a few years but now almost no one wears them. were they too uncomfortable? did the sponsorship money stop? did riders start to believe they didn't really provide protection? who knows....
I wear a Leatt on longer rides and have believed it is likely to help. I've also often wondered if it might actually cause problems i haven't considered. In particular, what if it gets jammed into my throat?
We found no mention of it in all the research, Randy. And reading countless forum posts.
@@crosstrainingenduro thank you. That's reassuring!
I have one but it won’t allow me to raise my head high enough to see what’s coming up.
They may be helpful but I will have to go back and watch Long Way Around to see if they are cooool.
a good idea and i realise i completely forgot to address the cool factor in this vid 😨
I wouldn't shake the neck collar too soon. I've tried all types of neck braces and the neck colour doesn't distribute the pressure anyway to your back or anything like that it has a much softer even load distributed all over your shoulders and nowhere near as rough in my heavy crashes.
Now I am firmly on the Fence on Neck Braces
All the Traction eRag guys are borrowing neck braces and will do a vid series soon ove on the eRag channel. I doubt it will resolve anything, I hear they have mixed opinions already. 🤔
I use neck brace for a rally-style ride.
I really really hate the feeling and restrictions it makes to ones head and how it feels like you cant move your head or see as much. But i have one, and i should probably use it.
I ride with one and in steep sections it is a bit limiting, but not enough to really bother me so far. I’m not at the skill level of the guys in the video and don’t ride as difficult terrain, so that may be a factor. I do mostly adventure riding on a KTM 790 with lots of off road, really mostly unpaved forest roads in California but they can get quite steep and gnarly. I think the speeds involved and less technical riding make a brace a no brained here. I’m also riding more strictly off-road on a proper dirt bike as well to get better of the big adventure bike and the brace is still barely noticeable.
For what it’s worth, I had a Leatt and found taking it in and off and adjusting it a pain in the ass. I got a Rev’it jacket that had loops to attach their neck brace to the jacket so I tried theirs. I really like it. More comfortable, easier to adjust and WAY easier to get in and out of. It’s attached to the jacket so you just un-clip the front and take of the jacket. Super easy. I take it off the jacket and use it over a jersey when not using the big jacket. Whether attached to the jacket or used over a jersey like others, it stays in place better than the Leatt and is more comfortable. I don’t even know it’s there unless I’m on a steep hill.
They Rev’it brace is made by Moveo. It seems to be just restrictive enough but not enough to make movement an issue, and I have it adjusted to the 5cm recommended spacing. I really like it and it’s much more user friendly than the Leatt. Anyway, there’s my 2 cents.
Getting a brace to work with your existing gear can certainly be an issue for some riders, Matt. How is the 790 working out for you?
@@crosstrainingenduro so far so good. I’ve heard other people had issues with electronics and such but I have had not issues. The rider aids, traction control etc., are awesome and make me a better and safer rider. The low slung tank makes the bike feel significantly lighter than it is, both when riding and when lifting after the inevitable drop. And it’s really not massively in heavier than a KLR. Comfortable enough on long rides. Plenty of power. And riding in California, where I may start at sea level and ride to 7000 feet in a day, fuel injection is great. It really hits the sweet spot for me. The 690 looks pretty awesome to, same rider aids but lighter and more off road oriented, but I seriously stretched my budget and blew my wad on this.
I bought one because I ride in the dunes and I want to jump also sxs are very common so if I get hit head on I want all the protection possible
I rode with Chris Leatt the day he tested the first prototype.
The discussion went something like this;
Me "Chris what the f.. is that"?
Chris "It's a neck brace but don't look too close I have not patented it yet".
Me "Ha ha it looks like a bucket with the bottom cut out".
Chris "F.. you"!!!
Who's laughing now!!!
😂 good on him, he sounds like a great guy! his research certainly looked thorough, just a pity he hasn't got it published in a peer reviewed journal as that would give it much greater punch....
@@crosstrainingenduro The inspiration came after the unfortunate death, from a broken neck, of a friend, Chris was riding with.
@BMW R1200GS Adventure That's funny.
I haven't watched the video yet so I'd like to offer my recollection of what I learned when I extensively researched this online. I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure one of your videos was the starting point. Anyhow, after years of thinking I really need to get a neck brace I came to the conclusion that I'm not sure if I do or don't. The jist of what I read was that they can help sometimes, other times they may just transfer the injury and in some cases they may be detrimental. Some conclusive scientific testing and advice would be wonderful!
i agree kirk, i was very hesitant to even draw the sketchy conclusions i did because there's so much more work needed in this area
Hey Barry. Sweetman is doing a study on this and is looking for people to do a short survey. Maybe you could direct you subscribers over there. The more the merrier.
Watch "Neck Brace Survey" on TH-cam
th-cam.com/video/bUov28v7e-U/w-d-xo.html
Cheers Adam!
I broke my collarbone on dumping my adv bike off the side of the dual track in mostly sand dirt wearing nothing. Twisted the fork tubes and broke a turn signal. Stayed on the bike the whole way down and had no other injury. It is a mystery to me how I broke it. I surmise, my head flopping around, the Sena on helmet broke it because it hits in the right spot. I had a foam collar on the bike and wonder if I’d been wearing it ….
That's a rare injury! Who knows? The foam collar might have just spread the impact enough...
At 0.37 don't you mean hyperextension as the most common neck injury?
I high sided at about 30mph, came down on top of my head and broke my EVS brace in 3 places, but if I wasn't wearing it the brakes might have been in my neck.
breaks*
@@jasper_of_puppets are you really Soo lame that you correct people's spelling in the comments?
@@brianengineering9001 Good grammar is anything but lame.
@@jasper_of_puppets : So that's a yes, you are that lame.
So the guy that bails with his neck brace and lands on his head. Gets up and carries on won't hold any water for an argument. The other guy bails lands on his head breaks his neck and is dead won't be able to tell you if he should have worn a neck brace. Okay then... Nuff said plenty of testimonials of riders coming off hard with braces and swear by them but their 1st hand experience with the brace is anecdotal. It's most likely the best way to find out if they work in the first place from rider bailing with them. Plenty videos right here on TH-cam with people bailing with them getting up and going again.
as per the disclaimer, anecdotal evidence IS useful for making hypotheses and then hopefully proper research to confirm or deny. there are plenty of people crashing without neck braces and getting up and going again too.
check out discussion of this topic on thumper talk, i wear one ....slower riders are on the track longer so they are at greater risk...
When I saw BMX racers wearing neck braces I was like WTF really? Then Sam Willoughby broke his neck training, don’t know if he was wearing a brace or not🤔
Again amazed at the lack of protection worn by top riders especially the Euros .I think sometimes if it wasn't for the endorsements on their gear, it would be nothing but thongs and sandals .
likewise james. admittedly they seem to very rarely fall off because they are so talented, but when they do it's often at ridiculous speeds....
It's funny because should you fit the helmet closer to the neck brace, you're less likely to wear it because it becomes more restricting. Might as well get a hospital neck brace so you can't move your neck. The EMS study showed that around half the riders with neck injuries had neck braces, and considering that so few riders wear them, that is very concerning and could be the anecdotal evidence that shows that neck braces cause injuries.
It's certainly an area that needs really decent research. It would be great if that EMS group pased their data on to specialists to make more sense of it.
Well after my weekend where I stacked on a brisk adv ride and breaking my helmet and body armour plus getting knocked out and very confused for 15 minutes I might give them a shot
A few of the Canadian guys I ride with each summer are going to try wearing neck braces for a few months then report back. Hopefully they won't be testing them in crashes, but it will be more about seeing if they are uncomfortable to wear...
If nothing they look cool 🤷🏻♂️
They work. To me the brace did good job while crashing. No doupt. Yes the look cool.
Liked it ! Thank you
A man I admired taught me;
If you're worried about getting hurt.... dont crash, problem solved.
Sweetman here on youtube has a survey going about neck braces if anyone would like to help out. Not sure if i should put a link but it shouldn't be too hard to find. Cheers
texted him tex, i'll put a link in after we chat....
@@crosstrainingenduro Good stuff sir ,i'm sure he would appreciate it. Cheers
Cheers guys
Watch "Neck Brace Survey" on TH-cam
th-cam.com/video/bUov28v7e-U/w-d-xo.html
But do you wear a neck brace yourself?
No. Most of our rides are in slow technical terrain - first and second gear usually. And it's hot most of the year so our group doesn't wear much armour at all.
Thank You
my pleasure!
I think,that learning to ride better is the best revenge. Take the money blown out one's ass on bracing and scaffolding to hold one's body together in horrible crashes,and spend it on learn to ride classes. Same for knee braces. Think "dancing with the bike" rather than "rooting like 400lb hog" on fast rides........YRMV. I cant be blamed for anything I say,I ride friggin bicycles 24/7 fer chrise sakes,how much could I know?
Our motto is its always a good idea to have your primary focus on learning to ride better... obsess less over your choice of bike, knobby, suspension setup, and work on your technique! It probably makes sense to do the same with protective gear too. Don't ignore it, of course. But remember that learning to ride better (and within your limits) will make you safer.
I would rather look like a full on robot than little protection when on the road bike
Love your humour! :-)
Did you have one on Barry?
never worn one, phil. i was thinking about it after breaking my back but apparently it would have made on difference as the force was 'axial'... down the spine and not sideways against it.
I am enjoying my time in the cult of Barry. Be like Barry!! Be like Berry!! 🧟♂️
you mean talk through your nose, ride in a mediocre fashion and exhibit poor personal hygiene? 😁
there is also ride slowly and fall off bike often. HAHAHAHA!!
trying to find a segway so I can use 'nek minnit" 🤔
I landed on my head last season.
-oops, sorry, I was saying when I landed on my head last season, I would have almost certainly broke my collarbone in the crash, but the neckbrace spread the forces over its structure and saved me from the fracture.
I find your dismissal of the data presented by Action Sports EMS to be difficult to understand. They present data gathered from what is genuinely a huge sample set. They qualify that it came from actual injuries sustained in very similar circumstances, mostly motocross, that they witnessed. They conclude just one thing, really: That neck braces are beneficial. And looking at the data, I'd only question the deaths since it's a low number. Of course it always will be, so it may be as good as you can get. "Analysis by experts" is what you suggest - can you offer more detail on what that may be? The data is absolutely, overwhelmingly in favor of neck braces. No analysis is going to change the data unless it somehow proves it to be fake.
www.actionsportsems.com/case-study-neck-brace
I'm not dismissing it completely, but I'm saying it falls drastically short of proper research so you can only give it so much weighting. And that they are drawing some major conclusions without evidence of how they have analysed the data and taken into account any extraneous variables, what the original criteria were, all sorts of things that a proper researcher would want to know and explain in a proper paper. What they have publicized is better than anecdotal evidence, but far short of the gold standard - data collection by research specialists, analysis by the same, published in a peer-reviewed journal etc. I referred to this in the first two seconds of the vid...DISCLAIMERDirt riders tend to love 'anecdotal' evidence when it comes to buying the latest carbon fiber helmet, titanium spoke nipples or neck braces. It often comes in the form of “I know a person who...” but it can take many guises... those bullshit product testimonials, or someone takes a dietary supplement and claims to have lost a lot of weight. Or smoking must be okay because your grandad smoked for decades and lived to 90. Now in research this anecdotal evidence might lead you to make some assumptions or hypotheses, but they need testing to be verified! And that's where proper research comes into play. The gold standard is normally to have a number of independent researchers to all reach the same conclusion, AND have their results published in peer-reviewed publications where other experts dissect your findings to see if they are legit or not. Unfortunately there's bugger all chance of that for dirt riders in most cases. So I've struggled to make a bit of sense with the odd bits of research available on neck braces for dirt riders. If you do have some expert opinions I am all ears. But if it's your tobacco smoking granpappy whose collarbone got broken by a neck brace while doing a triple backflip then I might be a bit more sceptical lol.
It's an impressive study but as far as I can tell, their sampling methodology means that we're not able to answer the 'effectiveness' question very well.
I previously made contact with the Great Lakes EMS group who are apparently considering a formal academic publication. I hope they do, as a formal academic review process and more detailed screening/methodology will add a lot more weight to their findings.
@@crosstrainingenduro Perhaps I've spent so much of my life making decisions based on data that I'm not able to see the difference between "proper research" and real-world evidence, which is what is normally gathered to confirm or disprove the researcher's conclusions, so I'll take another approach:
Suppose I owned a business where my employees rode dirt bikes around a motocross track. Suppose they had a bunch of accidents with injuries, as MX riders do, including neck/spine injuries or a death or three . Now suppose I was in possession of this study all along and had chosen not to provide neck braces to my employees. How would I be treated in court? By the press? By governmental safety agencies?
@@dznnf7 I don't believe it's accurate to say he dismissed the EMS report-- he offered it up with qualification, and rightfully so. Just because there are problems with the report doesn't mean its usefulness has been fully eclipsed-- on the contrary, with the lack of comprehensive studies, it's quite valuable, there's just an asterisk!
So what are some of the problems? For one it appears that the data inclusion is only triggered when there is an injury. As the data stands, this actually seems to favor the efficacy of the braces, but there are certainly ways in which the proper interpretation of the data could lead to counter-intuitive but true conclusions. A much bigger problem is that all the study shows is correlation, not causation. The study is not isolating braces as what affects the frequency and/or severity of injury. For example, riders wearing braces could (and most likely are) more safety conscious. This may cause them to either not "send it" as hard/frequently, or build up their skills more deliberately before attempting to "send it", thereby causing less severe injuries.
The scientific method is a beautiful thing that allows us to isolate the signal from the noise in a way that is superior to our natural/intuitive process. That being said, at the end of the day, it's no good to be perpetually locked in indecision any time a quality study is unavailable. However, just the same, we are best served to properly weight the evidence we are using to seize the day.
yes that would be great to see a formal review of the data and publication!
I would never put anything hard around my neck, simple as that. It's just stupid to do so. BTW most studies do companies who sells neck braces so go figure....
What's the problem with the brace being hard? I ride with and without
BOoOpP....neck braces in enduro is like strangling yourself....some are into that sh*t that's why they wear it....boOopP
There's a hundred thousand variables not the least of which are the helmet and gear you are wearing. Which anyone of, or combination of. Could essentially act as a neck brace at certain angles. Overconfidence in the protection could lead to worse riding. Meaning higher rates of injuries. I don't know if they do it. But just testing in car crashes would probably give more evidence for them than on a motorcycle. Because with enough force applied you can break anything. But even if you are limiting the whiplash effect on the neck. Which they do, if fitted right. You are limiting potential permanent damage, that can limit neck mobility the rest of your life. Which doesn't factor into a lot emergency studies. Because a lot of people won't go in, a lot of the time. If they can just, walk it off. Comparing at all to professional anything. Isn't a reasonable measure. It's like let us compare an f1 drivers accident avoidance Vs your dumb teenage kid. Who is better? And how exactly does this factor into the accident where you would need it?
The biggest problem with them. Generally. Is they have no inbuilt system of give. Like rubber washers or spacers. To absorb some of the impact. And no means, of adjustment to the different sectors where your neck will make impact. Meaning millage 100% varies. Depending on your helmet, the fit, and the rest of your gear.
To compare it to something. I'd say this is the lap belt phase of seat belts. And everyone is convinced that because Joe was flung free of the car and lived. And F1 drivers say that's the way to go. Then by George that's the way to go. Is a lap belt, fool proof? No. If you use it wrong or it's built wrong. It could be worse. But just because someone makes a lap belt that cut someone in half. Doesn't mean all seat belts inherently don't work.
No
No
None
See previous answer
None that isn't useful
If you worry about neck injuries and getting hot while wearing one.......
......buy a landrover with aircon.
i think you're on to something there. i suspect you also wouldn't need a helmet, gloves or boots.... any clothing at all!
Anecdotal evidence is not reliable. Thank you!!! Can you tell that to the general American population?
actually anecdotal evidence has found that the american population is highly informed, well educated and has created the world's best political system ever. 😁
CROSS TRAINING ENDURO SKILLS I see what you did there, crafty devil.
This whole conversation is stupid. Do football shoulder pads prevent all injuries? What about helmets? No they don’t. But they protect from certain/specific injuries. Same with Leatt style neck braces. They protect from specific types of injuries. Namely the ones where you head snaps one direction and can crank on your neck. That’s it. People need to be smarter.
I think the issue here might be your comment. You say people need to be smarter, but then you complain about a video that aims to make people smarter by encouraging them to use actual research, not hearsay and anecdotal evidence? 😂
@@crosstrainingenduro not really, it’s a simple logic exercise, is having more protection better than having NONE?
Studies are irrelevant for that scenario/question. If the question is what specific injuries do they prevent? What about performance benefits or restrictions? At what point do the neck braces no longer protect and only restrict? But no one seems to ask those questions. It just stops at: they don’t prevent neck injuries completely so I’ll stop wearing them. They go: this study is not conclusive so I’ll stop wearing them. That’s why it’s a stupid conversation.