History Buffs: Apocalypto
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Apocalypto depicts the journey of a Meso-American tribesman who must escape human sacrifice and rescue his family after the capture and destruction of his village at a time when the Mayan civilization is about to come to an end.
Man, dude was being chased through that jungle for 600 years? What a legend.
😂😂😂
History buffs is correct that the Maya abandoned most of their big cities during the post-classic period, however according to the Spanish, wealthy Mayan cities and marketplaces still existed when they arrived. So it's a bit of a leap to say "city + famine HAS to mean classic Mayan civilization".
I choose to accept this scenario as the truth thank you for this
Two words: worm hole. That's the only way that this makes sense.
Well done, sir!
Historic accuracy? No. A master class in film pacing? Hell yes.
Ive read somewhere (maybe Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History) that perhaps 90% of those that died of spanish-introduced diseases, actually died without every seeing the Spanish. The diseases perhaps spread along the internal trade routes of the Mayans.
This is very true. All European explorers knew it was essential to bring along LOTS of gifts & trade goods beyond just the samples for establishing potential future trade routes. This was to help ease the minds & create friendly rapport with any kings, leaders or groups they might come into contact with as well as to help cross the cultural & language barriers. Unfortunately some of the gifts & trade items (like quilts & blankets) likely carried the small pox virus.
Due to the lack of prior generational exposure like ppl from the Old World the virus completely ravished their populations with estimates of up to 90% dying in the 1st waves. These are Black Death rates of death... The spread was documented by both the surviving groups in the New World & the freaked out European explorers who were losing men to it too but at a much lower percentage overall. They said the pox had caused a total epidemic & was moving along the well established trade routes faster than they were traveling. It completely ended some kingdoms that were failing due to population collapse. They documented traveling to major kingdoms only to find some completely abandoned with the locals living tribally.
Now I've heard some pseudo-historians try & claim this was done intentionally. This is inarguably false. At the time this happened Europeans still incorrectly believed in the 4 humors & that illness was spread by "bad air." They did not understand how the pox spread. They were also very good with documenting their unethical intentions, planning & their reasoning but it was never mentioned. In fact we don't see anyone mention trying to intentionally give a native population small pox till over 300 years later after the establishment of America & an understanding or better understanding of viral spread was established. In a letter an officer made the highly immoral suggestion to a superior that in order to deal with a local tribe giving his area trouble they could gift them blankets used by ppl who died from small pox. We don't know how his superior replied but hopefully he rejected the cold blooded idea.
Yeah, if there was trade between Spanish Cuba, Hispanola and the mainland - the disease could have entered earlier than when the conquistadors arrived.
This is exactly what I was hoping someone would point out. Also, history buffs is mad saying the spanish hadn't arrived yet - but the movie doesn't ever suggest they haven't already arrived before. In fact, the spanish left and came back at one point. This could be their second arrival and so the girl 100% could have small pox.
@@gsimon123 Thanks, I wanted to pointing that out too, also I always felt the little girl was not to be taken literally, she's a bad omen, maybe even a demon.
@@gsimon123no this doesn’t make sense. This is too early for even the Spanish to exist. That’s what he’s pointing out that she can’t have small pox because no Europeans have made it to the America’s yet.
I actually liked the ending, because I thought it was about the Aztecs, and the ending was a "HOLY SHIT! they're doomed" moment!
Yea accurate or not who cares. That ending is intense, making the entire movie beforehand (which was awesome) seem like a warm up.
Except .. as explained they are not the Aztecs because they don’t exist yet lol
That's what I thought when the Spanish showed up
Because the Maya weren't even around when the Spanish showed up
@@johnmoreno5965wow your knowledge of Mayan history sucks. Not only were they there, they were the last civilization/cities to be conquered all the way up to 1800s! 300 years later after the Spanish arrived.
Nobody Expects the Spanish Time Travelling Conquistadors.
underrated comment.
This is gold, mate!
Do they have Johnny Depp with them?
If they don't they're not the real Spanish Time Travelling Conquistadors.
I cracked up when the Spanish showed up :P
or the Spanish Inquisition (Monty Python reference)
You don't get it? The chase scene just took 600 years, duh.
😂😂😂
HAHAHAHA
DAAAAAAAA obviously Apocalypto is a Sci-fi Time travelling portals in the jungle movie!!!! XD
😂😂😂😂😂 this made me laugh hard broo
Lmfao, the more i think about this, the funnier it gets 😂🤣😂
Just imagine:
Lets say these dudes start the chase in 950 AD, ok?
So:
962 - Holy Roman Empire is being established.
These dudes still chasing each other
1066 - The battle of Hastings.
These dudes still chasing each other
1215 - Declaration of Magna Carta.
Dudes still chasing each other
1315 - The great famine.
Dudes still chasing each other
1337 - The hundred years' war.
Dudes still chasing each other
1348 - The Black Death.
Dudes still chasing each other
1378 - The great Schism.
Dudes still in the woods, chasing each other
1456 - The Ottomam Turks enter Europe. The Balkans are being enslaved.
Dudes still chasing each other
1460 - DaVinci is already inventing planes amd tanks and golden ratios.
Dudes still chasong each other.
1492 - Columbus arrives on the Carribeans and finds an entire new world.
Dudes still chasing each other in the jungle.
Its finally 1500 and the Spanish are allready colonizing America.
Good guy gets shot by an arrow in the chest and him and the hunters go on the beach and see the Spanish arriving
The End
Mel isn’t known for his adherence to history, nor does he claim it but his films are visually spectacular!
As well as borderline insulting to every cultural group they depict. Especially when he injects his personal opinions into it, such as rabid Christianity and distaste for the English (and for a decidedly more oppressed people that I won't name. You know the one.).
Im not sure his vision isnt closer than you think. They really werent that impressive.
@@Tea-rettescry bout it + British people are terrible
@@Tea-retteslol no
@@Tea-rettesI think you are confusing the oppressed vs oppressor narrative. Mel understands this, like the majority of the non western world understands.
All that said, the film is incredible.
It really is. Anybody who goes to watch a film like this and expect historical accuracy must have a screw loose. It’s first priority is to entertain and make money with this film did. I saw it when I was 16 and it blew my mind. It was so great.
@@scionixx9568 If you want to make a movie with mayan/aztec influence, fine. The issue isn't that, its the fact that it markets itself as an accurate, historical film. Which this movie does not do. Imagine if Star Wars marketed itself as a horror movie because George Lucas was inspired by a horror movie he liked, you'd be PISSED because star wars is OBVIOUSLY not a horror movie. this movie markets itself as a historical film/historical fiction (think Saving Private Ryan), and it just isnt... its closer to a fantasy film.
Mehh it’s alright
@@scionixx9568ancient history & an entire people are not your entertainment
When I first watched Apocolypto, I thought it was all about the Aztecs, not the Mayans...
Exactly, me too.
Same😭😭
Yea i thought it was the aztecs who captured the villagers and that the villagers weren’t mayan
Yep, same. I assumed all along it was the Aztecs and not the Mayans, and the villagers were some other tribe altogether. Nothing about this movie screamed Mayan to me.
@@simdoughnut659 nothing about it scream aztec either
Everybody gangsta until time traveling conquistadors show up
@@markdavis7397 source?
Frank Lucas So out all all the tribes and the entire region, this one tribe is one of the few to encounter disease? Look, I get that could be a reason, but it’s not the most likely, and if there can be an argument made against it, then why even have it in the movie? Why not have a disease that was already native to the region? So it makes sense if you try to rationalize it but it also doesn’t
@@markdavis7397 keep in mind that native tribes were devastated by such diseases, this movie takes several hundred years before the conquistadors had arrived, if disease like that had already existed then the native tribes would have already been devastated before they arrived, or they would have already been found medicine to counter it, keep in mind that the fact that they didn't have medicine at the time gave those who came across the sea a great advantage when colonization began, so if those diseases had already been present at a large scale then history would be very different.
Mel Gibson is a huge religious nut, my bet is that he wanted to displaced the blame to put the god worshiping conquistadors in a better light, why else would he have them come in at the last moment and have them save the day.
@Frank Lucas This movie definitely takes place in 1511
@Eddie Gooden what's so funny?
With the Smallpox it's entirely possible that the girls mother had exposure to Europeans somehow, it's not explicitly stated that the ship seen at the end of the movie was the absolute first contact.
Wanted to say the same. Also, as far as I learned the diseases conquered the continent way faster than the Europeans themselves. To the point that whole villages where eradicated without ever having contact with any white people.
Moreover, it’s not told at all that this movie pertains to the 900AD collapse.
I usually like this channel, but this video felt pretty weak.
Agreed, this youtuber missed the whole point of this movie. Too much bias against Mel Gibson, and we know why.
My sentiments exactly - the backdrop of the movie is clearly an ongoing apocalypse underlined by the city-dwelling natives have become decadent. The reviewer was so eager to dump on Mel Gibson that this is entirely lost on him.
Come on dude! Stop hating on Mel…
Honestly this movie is in my top 5 and usually I highly dislike inaccuracies but this one just doesn’t bother me 😅
I don't care about inaccuracies as long as there's a good story. I rewatch this movie every year. It's fantastic.
@@wPleasur3Liking a movie doesn't mean you don't care about natives or history. This movie NEVER promoted itself as a documentary. Plus, nobody should be learning about history from Hollywood.
@@wPleasur3 Ignorance persists bc our school systems are crap. Anyone out of elementary school should be old enough to know Hollywood has never and will never make a 100% accurate movie/tv show. When Hollywood does their job right they send ppl down rabbit holes for hours/days looking up documentaries for actual knowledge on the subject of the movie/tv show.
I watched tons of documentaries after 300, Gladiator, Troy, HBO's Chernobyl etc.
@@wPleasur3 Why thank you but no.
This movie was shit tho
I admire your work and have always enjoyed your content but I think you are being terribly unfair to this movie. For starters, you praise the use of native language but then poison the well by asserting that its just a scam to lend authenticity to the film, a logic that could be applied to any historical accuracy present in any movie. You say the Mayan would never live in a village like that depicted. However its a fallacy to assuming people with similar languages must have identical cultures. What would happen to mayan speakers if they inhabited an area that could not support farming agriculture and larger villages? Is that a scenario that you think is impossible? We have that today. It would be like looking a movie about lumberjacks or fur trappers in Alaska or northern Canada, and saying "Oh this is such bullshit....people who speak English live in big cities like New York and London.....look that fur trapper talked to that city person....totally bullshit". Smallpocks. You get indignant that the native could be dying of a disease without directly contacting Europeans themselves. This is false, indeed waves of epidemics spread out far in advance of European settlers and explorers. Columbus landed in the Yucatan on his fourth voyage in 1502........10 years after first contact. Its is totally possible, and indeed very likely that European dieses were spreading and ravaging native populations within this time frame. There could easily have been undocumented Spanish contact before this, or Native Caribbean peoples who fled the Spanish but brought their diseases with them. This is totally plausible. In terms of the number of cities.....sure if you combine all the cities that ever existed from all time...they are everywhere. However Apacalypo isn't set against the entire length of the mayan civilization, but just a few days at the start of the 16th century. By then classical mayan civilization was over and the number of cities massively reduced (most were swallowed by the jungle after all).You say that this movie cant decide what culture its borrowing for and that you cant use both. However cultures mix all the time. Indeed a few minutes before you chided the movie for using both, you say that the late mayan civilization borrowed/was influenced by Aztec Culture. Since we know this movie is set in early 16th century and not the classical period, and because of its geographical setting, that type of influence and cross cultural admixture is to be expected....though its true the precise components of that admixture may not be documented historically. Ecological degradation and famine were not limited to the end of the classical mayan period. Nor were cities and hunter gatherer societies never adjacent or contemporaneous to each other. The mayans still had cities in the post classical period and they were influenced by the Aztec so many of the issues you raise can, if not be historically proven, at least plausible argued. At the same time there were still hunter gatherers living in other areas. Though are certainly inaccuracies in the film and nobody should use it as a substitute for actual research (something you could admonish for any movie) I think you have been incredibly unfair.
agreed, also this was a pretty freaking amazing film IMO--it gives you a rough idea of the peoples and cultures, but ultimately it is a movie and needs a plot, etc. Visually it is gorgeous.
lengthyounarther All valid points. I myself felt that he was being too harsh. Plus, I hope he reads your comment. Maybe then he'll realize that he was being incredibly harsh.
And, don't get me wrong, I am definitely not a fan of Mel Gibson but this was a one of a kind film in terms of the setting. Have to give credit where credit is due.
"one of a kind film in terms of the setting. "
How on Earth is that supposed to be a justification for *historical falsification?*
So, what, make enough films with the Mayan setting and Apocalypto will magically be revealed for what it is once the setting is saturated enough?
"Go ahead and wish hard that the ever make a movie as detailed as apocalypto about mayans or aztecs won't happen."
Oh, so that justifies falsifying their culture and history to make them more "exotic" to the viewer? Got it.
Yeah, turns out that a lot of people of Mayan descent didn't like, you know, their ancestors being portrayed as *genocidal maniacs* because Gibson couldn't be assed to differentiate between the Aztecs and Mayans.
"the arrival of the Europeans was a deliverance?" how did you get that out of this movie. I do believe that showing the child and mother with small pox was a fore shadowing of what was/would be happening with the arrival of the Spanish--not a "good" thing wouldn't you agree?
For what it's worth, the movie is absolutely visually stunning and really intense. So even though it's totally worthless from a historical stand point, its a very entertaining watch
I wouldn't say totally worthless.
A lot in the film was accurately portrayed. HOWEVER, (like this video explains) it all happened at DIFFERENT PERIODS in history. Not on the same timeline. Yes, parts of the film are a mixture of several periods, but still happened nonetheless. And as you stated, still cool to see.
I liked it too, too bad it was historically incorrect tho!!!
@@chrisheidt1836 I totally agree with you 👍
Spiritual stand point . Make fear, fear you. 😤
Exactly, thank you!
I love Braveheart, but I can’t get enough of you bringing back the “historians from England will say I am a liar” line and then saying “yeah I bet they do asshole.” 😂🤣
Why exactly is a smallpox outbreak out of the question? The ships appearing at the end of the movie (spoiler) are not the first European ships that arrived to the the New World. The disease would have absolutely spread to people that had never made contact with Europeans yet, and those people would have no explanation for that disease.
Mexico was discovered 1517, but smallpox was only introduced 2-3 years later.
The first European to reach Mexico was Francisco Hernández de Córdoba, who landed in the Yucatan, if the movie takes place in the Mayan polities, then it would make sense that the ship at the end of the movie belongs to Francisco Hernández. Actually, Smallpox hit the former Aztec Empire first in the north, it didn't reach the Yucatan till much later, because it was brought by african slaves the spanish brought in to replace the native labor after the conquest of the Mexicas.
Either way you look at it, the timeline doesn't match up, because by the time Smallpox was brought to Mexico, the Mayan city-states already had knowledge of the Spanish, and had fought them in several occasions (though like the guy state, the architecture is wrong for that timeline).
Anyways, it's a movie, and I have yet to see a "historical movie" that is 100% free of historical inaccuracies. I'm thankful for Mel Gibson for making a movie in the Mayan language with Maya people (I'm part Maya). He's definitely one of the best of our time and Apacalypto is quite enjoyable nonetheless.
History Buffs: “Nooo it has to be historically accurate!” Mel Gibson:”Haha Spaniards go splish splash”
@@Comical1984 Mel Gibson should just made it about Aztecs or set it after the Aztecs fell since the Spaniards were interacting with the remnants of the Mayans in the 16th century
Sax Beat Mel Gibson just acted in The Patriot. He didn’t write (Robert Rodat) or direct it (Roland Emmerich). He didn’t even produce it. So he had no say in the creative process other than how he acted.
Well there is alternate history that Muslims Iberia colonise america
@@dragonbones3885 yeah this is a case of trying to put everything in, I think, and so the lack of focus creates far more problems than benefits accrued from all the inclusion. There was enough with just the Aztecs, and the simple story can obviously be worked into almost any civilization or time period.
@@isyraf9989 lol
That ending is just: "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
I thought they were Vikings
@@alexcore697 Well you sir are rather dumb.
Yeah, but what a show.
@@tacolepaco Christian Viking
Haha, yeah I thought the exact same thing
The Spanish landing at the end of the movie weren't necessarily the first Spanish to land in the Americas, they could've landed 2 years ago 60 miles north of them, passed small pox to the Maya there, and the disease made its way down to the city in the movie
My thoughts exactly. Not to mention, the illness being smallpox is just yet another questionable assumption made by the video. There are other infectious diseases that produce blisters. The truth is we don't really know when the movie is set nor what precise cultures are being depicted.
Are the Europeans at the end Spanish or Portuguese? Is this first contact? Are they Mayans, Aztecs or an imaginary syncretic civilization incorporating practices and behaviors from different Mesoamerican cultures at different times? Are all groups in the movie part of the same civilization/culture? What sickness are they suffering from? The movie remains purposefully indeterminate on those issues.
The guy in the vid makes tons of assumptions and then faults the movie for inaccuracies based on said questionable assumptions. Apocalypto is a masterpiece in my book.
Right. This video is nitpicking in the most annoying way because half of what he says isn’t backed by any truthful information, just a guy getting upset over assumptions lol
@@shiivainu9442 Is not about acuracy is all about shitting on Gibson.
@@sirparzival9372 i can get behind that 🫡
Not only is it possible. It's expressly stated in the film.
I always appreciate History Buff’s videos. An interesting note is if at the end it was Cortez in 1519 then it is possible timeline wise if we look up who Geronimo de Aguilar was. He was a shipwreck friar who landed in Mexico in 1511 with dozen others, made a slave, set to executed to a Mayan God, escaped but captured again by a rival Mayan tribe and subsequently lived as a slave for 8 years while learning Mayan.
After Cortes arrived in 1519 Aguilar meetup with him and along with Marlintzin (who knew Mayan and Nahault) served as translators for Cortez during his conquest.
Hence this information I myself happen to learn recently can conveniently tie up lose ends in the movie. Since Aguilar and other were around prior to Cortez, they could have inadvertently given the local population smallpox in 8 years. As well as explained Mayan tribes hostile to one another which historically would have been accurate as least in Aguilar’s experiences.
But don't take my word for it, looked up Aguilar and Marlintzin.
The historical inaccuracy isn't in that the people had smallpox before Cortez. Obviously they'd had it since Columbus. It's that they're getting smallpox and seeing Spaniards, not a few years or decades before Cortez, but half a millennium before Columbus or Spain even existed
“ Set in Yucatán around the year 1502, Apocalypto portrays the hero's journey of a young man named Jaguar Paw, a late Mesoamerican hunter and his fellow tribesmen who are captured by an invading force.” It is at most almost two decades off from Cortez’s arrival. I don’t know why people are so eager to back date this movie’s timeline when the synopsis itself gives a clear year.
@@intersubjective7129 Because if it takes place in 1502, as the synopsis claims, then that opens a whole new can of worms, as what we see in the movie is in no way consistent with the post-classic period. One could lessen the blow of historical inaccuracy by claiming it takes place in the 16th century, but that doesn't change the fact that cities shouldn't look like ones that were abandoned by the 10th century, nor should there be mass famine, which is a clear reference to the classic Maya collapse. Moreover, why have the quote at the beginning which deliberately indicates it's about the collapse of Mayan civilization?
I agree about your point about the cities, that seems to be the director wanting to show them at an apex of development while by 1502 they were largely reduced to warring tribes in the shadow of the Nahuatl (Aztecs). On issue of mass famines, we didn’t see more than the effect in a small region. I mean who would suffer the effects of famine worst than a deposed people living near a large empire. Granted the movie depictions does mutter that.
As the far as the quote it fits perfectly with Mayans at that people who were then divided among themselves to the point of intra-tribal conflict. Their collapse had already taken place well before the movie as well as not at the hands of the Spanish. It’s fits as setup that the Mayans have themselves to blame and not some foreign force for their collapse. Though on some level the same can be argued about Aztecs though a bit more up to interpretation of history.
I always got the impression the village we see wasn't supposed to be specifically a Mayan village, just a small local tribe. And them speaking the same language isn't that weird, different groups and cultures often speak the same language when in close proximity.
Great point.
That's exactly what I thought. To my knowledge, there were other neighboring tribes that weren't necessarily Mayan, but I could be wrong
exactly
yeah its like in Senegal, a lot of them speak their own tribal language but the vast majority (or at least a very good chunk) speak French and Wolof as well.
Yeah that's what I always thought as well. I thought it was obvious by the fact that they were so blown away upon entering the city, suggesting they were a remote tribe with no knowledge of a greater "civilization".
You gotta admit, that chase scene was bloody brilliant.
I was hoping for Mel Gibson screaming freedom
@@OkurkaBinLadin -_-
@@OkurkaBinLadin no shit
@@OkurkaBinLadin I'm still wondering if you did not get the joke
The chase portion of the movie is pretty much a remake of The Naked Prey.
Not all movies need to be historically accurate to be great. It’s a great movie & great representation. Still never been a movie like it.
It is actually historically accurate, the Mayans were still around during the Aztecs
@@termsconditions9433 Did you even watch this video??? 🤣🤣
@@fire398017 yes? And my dad is a historian he knows stuff
I always thought that the villagers dying of small pox was kind of a hint that the Spanish had already arrived in the New World and the news just hadn't reach that particular part of the continent yet. Foreshadowing if you will. I mean if you think about it makes sense, there was never that many Spaniards in the New World and they didn't conquer it all at once, it would make sense for some more remote tribes to only hear about them a lot later after they had arrived or even for the disease to reach them before the Spaniards themselves.
It was never my understanding that the main characters were Maya. They were supposed to be a random jungle tribe that was captured by the Maya.
Exactly. I was actually kinda surprised this was a issue or confusing to people. Especially people who actually watched the movie. By the end of the movie its crystal clear they weren’t Mayan and had no real contact with the Mayans.
eXACTUMUNDO
The Problem is: Why do they speak Mayan than? Because they do.
@@ludwigvan3649 It's not that unusual for there to be a cultural difference but a linguistic similarity. Cree, Ojibwa, Miqmaw, and Innu all Speak Algonkian, but are not synonymous with the Algonquin tribe.
The narrator is correct here, that I think they used Maya to create an overall impression of authenticity, but given that Maya is still taught in schools in Mexico, it was probably just an easier indigenous language to learn, or perhaps the actors already knew it.
More irksome to me was the realisation that Gibson had lifted a lot of the ritualistic elements from Juan Mora Catlett's "Return to Aztlan" which was an Aztec movie. Apocolypto had struck me as rather Aztec seeming when I saw it as well.
It's true that the characters are speaking Maya, and even one captured lady prays to Mayan Moon Goddess Ixchele to pretect her children, but I think the creators were assuming that the audience would not realise or care that it was Maya they were speaking.
It was my impression though, that even in the context of the film narrative, this captured tribe was intended to be distinct though.
@@aaroncarson1770 educate these fools
The answer is simple: the conquistadors were sailing in the correct timeline until they went into the Bermuda Triangle and thus, were transported 600 years earlier. Just one of the many strange supernatural occurrences of the natural world
That's becuase they sailed thru 'El Caribe.' The Spanish Main. It's the land of voodoo, hoodoo and all kinda weird shit.
so this is a pirates sequel we never saw. Captain Salazar just went back in time then???
BMT115 PotC: endgame
Send magellan back
666 likes, hmm.
I've notice many films do this now. Like the show Vikings that takes Viking leaders from hundreds of years apart and put them together as one family. And then made it so Ragnar did all the events they did in their times.
Vikings discovered America before Spanish explorers
The film is set in 1502 you’ve came to the conclusion that this is during the fall of maya because they’re having a drought which I’m sure they had plenty of
If the movie is set in 1502 why are the Mayans still in their cities
There was no solar eclipse in this region in 1502. There was one in 1496, though.
Wikipedia says 1517, but either way, I really didn't like this History Buffs video.
All the yelling and screaming... and virtually all of that and all the criticisms are because his interpretation that the movie is set in the 9th century.
If he would only drop that, few criticisms are valid, and no need for the annoying screaming and absurd time traveling nonsense part.
If set in 1517, the girl with smallpox could be reasonable as Spanish and other exporers had already arrived in other locations, and the disease could have (and did) spread by then. The fact the main characters weren't aware of major cities would be explained as the Maya largely collapsed 600 years earlier, so saying there were Mayan cities everywhere wouldn't be correct at that time. However there were a few that remained, such as Iximche, which scattered Mayan villages remaining at the time (Mayans didn't fully disappear till almost 1700) might be shocked seeing. Which also explains his other criticisms early in the video such as "the land not being cultivated". In the 16th century, the few remaining Maya were scattered and no thriving civilization existed anymore!
Point being, if we set the movie in early 16th century, nearly everything makes sense. Only major critique might be they portray a Mayan cultural city that's more accurate to one from the 9th century.
I think the smallpox scene was a sign that of European contact. Since the Europeans first went to explore Yucatan before setting sail out to conquer the bigger cities. So the final scene were the Spanish arrives, would not be a scene depicting their first arrival, but rather an indication that the natives societies soon would be conquered.
Sure, but as Nick points out, this movie takes place during the Classical Mayan collapse, which happened during the 8th-11th centuries, hundreds of years before Europeans arrive.
@@bigj1905 tbh, I allways assumed these all were Aztecs. These are obviously Mayan cities, but didn't Aztecs use at least some of them? - they clearly were very mutualy culturally influenced, and these are some good cities fully intact it good condition. So bsically the main movie problem as I see it - they LOOK LIKE the Mayans in their day-to-day life, but everything else is explained if we assume these are Aztecs. The collapse situation too, like, this deforestation-bad crops cicle was not unique, it was and mosly is the way, Ucatan ecology works. Surely Aztecs would face the same issue - and find the same f-ed up solution.
Exactly, this youtuber got so many points wrong. The Europeans had already been In North America for many years at this point before the Spanish discovered the mayans. Cuba was already conquered before Mexico was even considered for conquest
@@bigj1905 On wikipedia it says the movie takes place in the year 1502.
@@mr.c.3760 There are things happening in the movie that happened around the 11th century. So, which europeans were already in North America at that point in time? The problem with the movie is, that it takes a time period of several hundred years and crams it all in one movie and one specific point in time. Its like making a movie about the rise and fall of rome and its all Ceasar, ruling for a thousand years, like a guy playing Civ6.
The main character lived in a chase scene for 600 years.
The movie actually makes sense now.
No, no, no. He ran so fast he time traveled and drew his pursuers along with him in his time vortex wake, thing.
Johann Gaius isiNwinga Zulu Ahuitcoyotzin Hirohito he must be a highlander
Yeah, now its making sense. In the chase relative time frame, it lasted a couple of hours. But since they ran so fast, outside their time reference, it took 600 years.
Had the chase gone on longer, and they went farther up the coast, maybe they would have stopped in time, to witness, Winfield Scott's landing at Veracruz, in the Mexican War.
Even farther, and rounding the Gulf, stop in South Florida, to watch Apollo 11 taking off !
Now that's some science fiction ! Where's Mr. Peabody, and his boy Sherman ?
The movie is set in the year 1511, the same year the spaniards arrived to Yucatan. Sadly the reviewer got carried away with the fact that some things in the movie happened also (or seemed like they could've happened) in the 900 century, and that was most of the video.
My impression was that this took place at the arrival of Hernan Cortez in the early 1500’s. At that point only remnants of the maya existed. The civilizations in power during that period were the Aztec and Inca. The Aztec were looking to please their gods through human sacrifice as that was their custom. It’s also worth mentioning that at the arrival of Hernan Cortez the Mayan/Aztec calendar had just completed a full cycle. I always associated the eclipse with the completion of their cyclical calendar and of their prophesies. As their prophesies suggest, at the completion of their calendar was the moment that their “teacher” would return, Quetzalcoatl. Instead they got a Spanish conquistador, who scholars have suggested that the Aztec were certain was Quetzalcoatl himself. My point here is that the captors were Aztec no doubt. I had to stop midway to write this, as I do agree that there are inaccuracies, you seem not be the person to critique this film
I just finished the review and I don’t get how you ever thought that this movie was about the Mayan collapse. That was your fallacy. It’s not a perfect movie but they’re is definitely a lot to be said about it if properly construed
Yeah i don't get how he thought this movie was set in the 900s, it is far more believable that they misrepresented the mayans than them trying to say the spanish arrived in the 900s
They did a awesome job with the dialect my husband is from Mexicito Chiapas and speaks one of the many Mayan dialects and he understands a lot of what they are saying.
2:49
“Crops of corn and maize”
In other words, crops of corn and corn.
I figured all the damage to their crops was the Rampaging Minotaur.
the crops were in the soil of the land though
And more corn.
@@19ars92 well the Minotaur would stomp them to ruin I thought...
@@Molandria
He would’ve killed them to death
I was traveling through Guatemala when this came out. The newspaper said, "we were expecting braveheart and we got mad max."
...how is that a bad thing?
@@MarvinT0606 Mate, does Mad max sound like a good historical movie?
@@walangchahangyelingden8252
[checks timeline]
*yes*
@@MarvinT0606 Oh yeah, but hey wait a minute. Aren't nuclear weapons gonna make winters? How did that deserts come into play? Anyway, I did love Fury road.
@@walangchahangyelingden8252 it’s more factually accurate than Braveheart.
Why can't this film be based on multiple historical events and cultures throughout the region over centuries? It's a piece of art that got me interested in the history of Central America as a teen. I think it plays a great role as an introduction to the amazing historical and cultural turmoil of the region over a long period of time.
Yeah but why make it so inaccurate .. fuckin Gibson
@@joshwuzhere1did anybody do any better with same scenery, devotion and charismatic amateur actors?
Everyone confused about the main Characters being Maya, you have to remember that the Aztec were at war with neighboring tribes that did not want to join them, so when Cortez and the Spanish show up one of the reasons he was able to beat over 20k vs his 400-900 men, was because the neighboring tribes just like the one in the film, joined him because they also wanted to destroy the Aztecs, ultimately leading Cortez to turn on them after the big enemy was gone
The Mayans were to the Aztec what the Spanish are to Germans.
@@Section5_CdnIntelServicecould you please elaborate?
@@ulvschmidt7174 Mayans and Aztecs are completely different ethno-cultural groups that happened to share similar architecture and religious beliefs. Likewise, Spaniards and Germans may construct similar buildings and largely practice similar religions, but they have completely unrelated languages and cultures.
Pretty sure Cortez had help from thousands of locals.
@@Tea-rettes there was a lot of overlap between the two towards the end of the mayan civilization as the aztecs had risen in power and influence while the mayans had been slowly collapsing.
Say what u will but the cinematography in this film was absolutly amazing
And, who gives af about historical accuracy in Hollywood films?
@@connorbranscombe6819 Pedants. That's you, and all your friends Connor, and Nick, and his subscribers. That's who cares about historical facts in films made for the recreational enjoyment of the masses.
Edit. Lmfao.
@David, because that’s where many people get their history ... from the movies.
@Lord Kevolo Uh... have you seen the trailers for this film? The "masses" most certainly did not go to see this film for a history lesson.
No.
"None of them seem to be carrying shields" - from Yucatan to Westeros, the art of using a flat piece of wood has been long forgotten.
Having them without shields makes the fights more intense. Also, most of the actors have no idea what they´re doing, so giving them another thing to handle would just be too much. They would end up moving the shield all the way behind their back while swinging anyway, because a lobotomy is apparently a job requirement for a choreographer..
Jirka Zalabák It becomes stupid when someone in the movie actually starts using shields, and gains an advantage. Like when Boltons SUDDENLY have a shit load of shields, while nobody before that moment used them. And, predictably, they sweep the floor cause they have shields. With long spears. In formation. It's ETHER nobody has shields, OR everyone has them. There is no culture that didn't invent a shield.
"most of the actors have no idea what they´re doing"
That's why they are actors on a $40 million Hollywood movie.
I meant they have no idea how to fight properly. Just look at the silly way Kit Harrington clenches his fists while beating up Ramsay(it is not the dumbest thing I have ever seen, but it could still lead to some unnecessary injuries). The thumb is out of the fist. IRL, the hand would break so easily, especially when hitting someone right in the mouth and teeth, as he did like 20 times. There are very few actors who actually know shit about swordfighting, or fighting in general(and those who know something are often terrible actors, so...). Also, if they gave them shields, it would make sense to fight in a formation, which Holywood will not have, because then, the viewers would start demanding battles in formations. And well, where will it end? What will the poor Holywood do then?
AlHoresmi They're clearly slavers who are out to capture slaves without killing too many so they'd attack with surprise and without killing too many, perhaps rendering shields over encumbering for their use.
According to the DVD commentary by Gibson and Farhad Safinia, the ending of the movie was meant to show the first contact between the Spaniards and Mayans that took place in 1511 when Pedro de Alvarado arrived on the coast of the Yucatán and Guatemala, and also during the fourth voyage of Columbus in 1502.
wow maybe films should only be made by history nerds. I for one loved this film. i enjoyed it and find it very re-watchable. Mel did a great job. not only that it got me interested in the history.
Yeah you can really see history buffs obvious hate boner with Mel Gibson here, you can see the same in We Were Soilders, like the channel but really can't hold his bias back lol
To be fair, Mel Gibson had absolutely nothing to do with writing/ directing The Patriot... It's a freaking Roland Emmerich movie... Gibson only acted in it.
I never thought the villagers were Mayan. I thought they were attacked, kidnapped and the sacrificed by Mayans.
No, they were different Mayan countries or states, some of them more powerful and developed than others
@@servandopereira3482It’s never specified that they are Mayans. Jaguar Paw’s tribe is unnamed. While they could be affiliated with the wider Mayan civilization, that’s just an assumption.
@@thenablade858 Oh, reallyyyyy? If they’re speaking Mayan, well then, they’re french
Not really though.
Quebec Canada are French speakers and they're not French, plenty of African countries use french too, they're not French.
More importantly, plenty of French people living in France are not speaking french, they're speaking Norman, Corse and Basque, to name a few.
Yet, they're Frenchier than any non-French french speaker.
@@TH-cam_is_Trash Most stupid answer ever
Watching for the 3rd time in about 5 years. Along with every other video on this channel. Love the content. Always excited for the next one! Hope they never stop!
Make it obvious you went into this movie with a vendetta and an preconceived opinion. The mental gymnastics this dude is doing is unreal
I've watched the audio commentary with Gibson and the co-writer, they openly admit that they blended some aspects of different periods of Mayan civilization, and they share that the film takes place in 1502. Although this film isn't by any means completely historically accurate, the filmmakers were never attempting to make it that way, their commentary goes over that notion several times.
But this nerd just needs to hate on the great Mel
@@MetalRampage23 let's not act like everything he touches is gold. I'm not a fan of Mel Gibson as an actor, and I don't even like Braveheart. But this film is a masterpiece and I'll always defend this film for what a Cinematic experience it is.
@@MetalRampage23 I agree totally. I love historybuff's videos, but anything that deals with Mel Gibson will be hated and criticized, regardless of how good the movie is.
@@MetalRampage23 Uh... Right... So much that's wrong in your one sentence. 👻🤦♂️🤦♀️🤦♂️🤦♀️🤦♂️🤦♀️
@@MetalRampage23 go adjust your nipple clamps
Time traveling Spaniards? Well that’s the scariest thing I’ve hear. Why? because . . . NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!
Oh shii-
Spanish inquisiton: Allow us to introduce ourselfs.
I see you what you did there.
"Surprise, hijosdeputa!"
-some Spanish inquisitor
EU4 agrees
Hahahaha came here for this
I watched it after having never seen anything like it (nor since) having a not clue about the period and was pretty entertained. I thought it was a cool story and it was interesting to see a little more context- though there are inaccuracies but I didn't think this was a documentary.
The look on your face when the time traveling Conquistadors showed up was priceless. 😂😊❤
Why it's simple my friend, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition
Time travelling Spanish Inquisition? That's legit.
Lol i get it XD
I love Monty Python
well in wow my disc priest does
Surprise!
Are you telling me Inglorious Bastards is not what really happened during WW2?
Inglorious Basterds doesn’t claim to be historically accurate you fucking idiot
@@zakkarywhiting8304 Neither does Apocalypto. You're toting a spare chromosome to think so.
Andrew, did you watch this movie because of the story, OR because it was directed by Mel Gibson? In other words are you interested in the history of the country's culture that was being represented or were you simply interested because it was a Mel Gibson film?
@@zakkarywhiting8304 Did you watch this movie because of the story, OR because it was directed by Mel Gibson? In other words are you interested in the history of the country's culture that was being represented or were you simply interested because it was a Mel Gibson film?
@Kenny G Did you watch this movie because of the story, OR because it was directed by Mel Gibson? In other words are you interested in the history of the country's culture that was being represented or were you simply interested because it was a Mel Gibson film?
My uncle is a historian in Mexico, with Masters in Mesoamerican civilizations. He was pulling his hair while watching this movie.
your uncle sounds like a douche. it's an entertainment piece.
Well sure, because a college education is absolutely no guarantee that one will understand life, or the world around you…. You know, things like movies for example. 😂🤷♂️😁
@@wilsonbeckett9487if you get all your history from movies you are one sad individual
I get that but if your Uncle made a movie on the same subject it would probably be unwatchable. It is a movie, it has to stretch reality a bit to make it entertaining.
@@luckymetal13 Wow, his point really flew over your head. Let me help u out. Movies have fake stuff in them!
It may be historically inaccurate but still a great movie. This video makes it feel like people can't just enjoy a movie just because it isn't historically correct. Movies can take real historic events and put a creative twists on them and still make a great movie.
I'm from Yucatan and i remember every time someone says something about the Apocalypto movie in mayan history class, the teacher always says something about how WRONG it is historically and how "The road to El Dorado" is even more accurate.
I loved road to Eldorado. Masterpiece
@I don’t exist For tax and insurance purposes yes
It actually kind of is. They include things like the ball game, the sacrifices, the way many of the people were dressed, how the high ranking soldier had a jaguar skin (jaguars were considered divine and killing one gave you a lot of respect and praise), how much richer in gold was the New World (until Europe went there and turn everything into sh*t) and even depicted the Spanish as obviously terrible people (there's literally a scene were Cortes says that Miguel and Tulio will be sent to Cuban slavers). Heck the jaguar year thing is a reference to Tezcalipoctla, the jaguar God and a pretty insane deity (although pretty much every pre-Colonial deity in Mexico was blood thirsty).
@@admin.slayerenryu5217 quetzalcoal (?) as well?'sorry... just wanted to seem educated after playing a game ... many years ago 😌
@I don’t exist For tax and insurance purposes Yes and no. If you go as a tourist on vacation to visit the historic places you don't have to, but if you want a more meaningful interaction with the people then yes, you do need to speak Spanish fluently.
Even tho it’s very inaccurate it’s such a good film, not a word of English for over 2 hours but you can’t stop watching once it gets going
And that’s the point. It’s not a documentary
It is a very intense movie and has pretty good acting, I've always really liked it and never have watched it from a historical lens that's why I clicked this video cause I thought learning of the history it's based in would be cool and it was definitely interesting learning about it.
What you can actually learn from watching a movie like Apocalypto is more broad things of the human condition. Jaguar Paw struggles and overcomes great hardships for those he loves he's a good role model character. The whole film has the classic literary devices of man vs. X as main sticking points and the film is basically Jaguar Paw vs. The World I view it as a testament to the power of clever perseverance when you are struggling in life.
@@JordoGarcia exceed qsqxesdwwwscwdwxxd
Sorry but it wasn't that intense or tense. It relies too heavily on the outrageous events (like the beheadings or... That's about it) to create tension. If you want a true movie with tension watch 'Dunkirk' that's a truly tense movie.
Breath taking movie !!!! Absolutely. Iv watched it 5 times
Ok. I lived in Mexico when I was young and got to study their history. Particularly the immediate time before the Spanish arrived. There were dozens of seperate cultures along the Atlantic coastline. Some Mayan (in the south), others spread along the Gulf of Mexico coast. Most of these played a subservient/vassal/client role to the more powerful Aztec Empire. To this day, dozens of new archeological discoveries are being made every year which rethink the relationships between these separate entities. None of which had horses nor come up with the wheel. So, I can do a bit of suspended animation instead of free gas bagging and understand it is a MOVIE. Not the best, but aimed at the vastly ignorant but curious masses.
It was not msde for cultural nor historical accuracy, but to make money.
With that all said, be a little less presumptuous and arrogant; then your videos would be shorter and more enjoyable.
This!
Hell yea
im confused about your issue with the small pox scene. it was never implied that the mayans had not had contact with the europeans. the fact that we see a ship at the end just means that a ship was there. that doesnt make it the first one.
I remember watching this when I was younger with my family we thought the movie was about a small tribe being taken by the Aztecs 🤷🏻♀️😂
That’s what I thought as a kid too haha
Yeah, I was thinking it was the Aztecs making a sacrifice to their god, by sacrificing other tribes
@@winniethepooh8353 Mayans did sacrifices too, but at a smaller scale, and I don't think they practiced the flower war (a poetic name to describe the war done by Aztecs to take prisonners for sacrifice).
A ting noteworthy, even for the Aztecs, it was not very common to take peasants of another tribe for sacrifice, when they were fighting the flower war, they were trying to captured the ennemy warriors, it was the most worthy offers to the Gods ^^
Ha
Krankar Volund well according to Stephen Douglas, a professor for the department of anthropology at brown university says that Mayan sacrifices mostly consisted of royalty and elites rather than slaves and according to Karl Taube (another anthropologist professor) said that there's no evidence that the mayans had large numbers of slaves. I could show you the link if you want it.
I think a lot of the historical issues would have been resolved if they chose to focus on the Aztecs as opposed to the Mayans.
I think its not even such a big deal. Im just hoping I will never watch a movie like the maker of this video does. it does not sound enjoyable. somebody should tell him he did not watch a historical documentary but a movie...
apart from that I think a lot of people who did not even know the real difference between mayan and aztec made recherches after watching the movie. so it actually had a good side effect. people who are lazy to look things up and get their historical view through movies by mel gibson should anyways reconsider their sources..
When I first saw this film with my dad, we were both under the impression the focus was on the Aztecs, especially because of the human sacrifice scene, the emphasis on jaguars, and the conquistadors arriving.
@@zamorano18x92 You're not a history buff, so you don't have to worry about seeing movies differently, but he has a point. This movie's history is false and misrepresents the Mayans, but most people get their history nowadays from movies, so they're being misinformed about a important part of civilization's history. It may not be a documentary, but if you're gonna be set in a different time period, it's important to represent it accurately and not just make it whatever you think it should be, unless the whole point is to not be what that time period was. Plus, some of the stuff just doesn't make sense, like one Mayan tribe being advanced while the other's primitive, and they somehow never meet each other for years.
@@zamorano18x92 same guy who wouldn't care about historical accuracy would lose his shit if in a movie people celebrated moon landing in the 30s or a movie set in the 50s had a car from the 80s or if a movie set in the 90s had a ps5.. which taken how ridiculous those examples sounds this movie is 100 time worse just because you don't know history it doesn't matter to you and it doesn't bother you
This film was a masterpiece
Really looking forward seeing your movie!
You made an unfair criticism of the village in 2:30
It's a periferal tribe not necessarily connected to the mayan empire.
This is what most tribes from central to south america looked, and still look, like.
The Nanman tribes from southern china in the three kingdoms period spoke a slightly altered dialect from the civilized chinese.
If a people descend from the same migratory ethnic group they'll speak simillar languages despite technological disparities.
but the movie still implies that they are mayan, it could very well be another type of culture, but that is not explained in the movie
Just my thougts
Except the people in the region would also have been Mayan.
Nanman The Legend like he said, this would have worked if you didn't have them speaking Mayan and cut out that part where they admit to never having seen a Mayan city before even though, whether this movie is representing the Classic Maya or the Post-Classic Maya, these cities where literally everywhere. He's not exaggerating, I've lived in central America before (from Mexico all the way to Costa Rica) and these cities, or remnants of them, are literally all over the place.
On Mayan presence during colonization:
The Spaniards actually battled the Mayans when they arrived in Mexico (Yucatan peninsula). Some erroneously believe the Mayan civilization vanished centuries before but this isnt the case. Rather, the golden age of the Maya's did come to an end centuries prior to colonization.
On smallpox:
Smallpox was introduced by the Spaniards to the Taino natives on the Caribbean islands. The Taino were an Arawak people who lived and traded along the Caribbean coast. It is only logical that European diseases were, after first contact by Columbus, carried through onto mainland Central America wiping out masses of native inhabitants before the Spaniards even set foot there.
It is even not so far fetched to see Mayans being influenced as a vasal state by their Aztec overlords in terms of ritual sacrifices.
It is furthermore argued that after the slow decline of Mayan civilization a lot of Mayans fled into the jungle and continued an isolated existence there. So having a tribe living in a hunter-gatherer context yet speaking Mayan is not that far fetched.
I am not sure if the declined THAT much. I mean most natives still used small fields for various crops - even in the rainforrest they cleared areas and planted something. The village in the movie is even much "inferior" to quiet a number of typical villages in the rainforrest in size and buildings (as far as I know). That mean not it could not exist in that way, but I think it is unlikely that people from the Maya would live in that way.
In the early 2000's i was flirting with this woman from Scotland. I said something smart and she was like, "oh you know about Scotland?" I said "yeah yeah, I've seen 'Braveheart'", she flip her lid, "you f*n Americans and your movies!!"
I was falling asleep and jolted awake to “BECAUSE HE’S FUCKING MEL GIBSON CODY!!!!”😂😂😂😂
At this point, I'm just glad the ending is not Nick Fury trying to recruit Jaguar Paw
Lmao
Epic
🤣🤣🤣
Gen alphas will likely never cease to make fun of NF end-credit scenes 100%
lol
When you reconquista so hard you travel 600 years in the past
Nah mate it was just a 600 year long chase scene through the jungle.
Did you watch this movie because of the story, OR because it was directed by Mel Gibson? In other words are you interested in the history of the country's culture that was being represented or were you simply interested because it was a Mel Gibson film?
@@jwalker-zf5fd Did you watch this movie because of the story, OR because it was directed by Mel Gibson? In other words are you interested in the history of the country's culture that was being represented or were you simply interested because it was a Mel Gibson film?
jwalker 0405 lmao
Benito Gonzalez Jr.
I watched it just to watch a good movie
However all of the human sacrifice scenes actually did happen under the Aztec empire right before the Spaniards got here
And the Spaniards did not have any back up
Imagine traveling to another world and seeing Native American priest ripping beating human hearts out of their chests
That’s some scary bullshit right there
There were still Mayan cities during the time of the Spanish Arrival. You're just assuming it's during the Classic Mayan Collapse. Movie is set in 1502. City was based on Zaculeu.
All the cities were abandoned wdym youre actually so stupid
Why are people complaining, literally the whole point of the channel is to pick out historical inaccuracies in movies
so film depicts how Mayans hunted small tribes (actually accurate) living in the forest and this channel straight up missed that point completely, thinking they hunted in other Mayan village?!.... and the movie is just about how civilizations of that area roughly looked like etc... not really about historical accuracy so its kinda lame to point out inaccuracies in a movie that wasnt meant to show any real historical event, just romantise it.... it deserves some complains
Zoltan1251 lol so you know Mayas hunted small tribes
Because people don't like it when things they like receive criticism, no matter how fair that criticism is.
@@MonstersNotUnderTheBed Many people take it as hard fact. That is what bothers us.
These guys would be the ones who complain that Pornhub has too much Porn.
Jaguar Paw wasn't from a Mayan village. He was obviously in a hunter gather tribe that was raided by the Mayans
then why he is speaking Mayan?
@jawz9184 plenty of people speak Spanish that aren't Spanish. What he is speaking just reflects the influence of the Mayan empire on the surrounding areas
@@LeRealJawzsimple, Mayan influence
@@LeRealJawzbc it was likely the dominant language.
I love the people in the comments that think they know more about this subject than the doctor who’s life is dedicated to this topic at the beginning of this video
I’m pretty sure Mel Gibson wanted to make an Aztec movie but at some point someone messed up and they accidentally got a bunch of Mayan themed stuff but they still had a full script so he was like “screw it, there’s no difference anyway it’s all the same”.
Truly a resourceful visionary, thank you Gibson!
I revisit this video everytime I watch this movie 😂
According to Wikipedia, Apocalypto was **not** set in the 900s, but in 1502. This was never meant to be the height of the Mayan civilization, but its twilight and decline.
Don't trust 100% on Wikipedia not all of its data are accurate. 😂
that may be the case but I think this movie took licence to mix content. if spanish had not arrived already the small pox would have been impossible too... and the idea of sacrifice was very Aztec in its description. Mayans were known for bringing prosperity to ppl they conquered not death and sacrificing
@akhenatuh Mayan civilization never died actually. There are still living Maya peoples. They live differently obviously.
@akhenatuh actually they were on decline.... aztecs ruled mexico area and had influence on maya at the time.. this is called as post classic mayan period... if you have any more doubts just do a simple google search of mayan civilization timeline...
Spaniards did not arrive in the Mayan Peninsula, but in the Veracruz area they went to Central Mexico from there
Tapir casting: Your look is great but we're gonna have to dub you.
Lol
Thank you for that Twitter analogy that really put things in perspective more than I think the numbers do.
I remember people clapping in the theater about the arrival of the Spanish like it wasn't the arrival of even worse villains
To be fair, I looked it up. The film is supposed to be set at the beginning of the 16th century and is supposed to depict an individual Mayan City state rather than the entire empire from centuries earlier. That would justify the small pox and conquistadors, but not everything I suppose. I think they should have stated in the film what year it was, it would have avoided confusion.
I definitely agree that this movie is set in the year 1511, because that would explain the reason why some of the characters have never seen a city-state before
@@antoniobeardall6520 And some of the Maya were still around in 1511.
Storymaker2 They should have made it about the Aztecs then.
@@boolosboi7503 agreed
There were no Mayan villages like those depicted in the film in the 16th century
Assuming the film is set circa 1500, it is entirely possible smallpox made it to Central America before Mayans saw "a single Spaniard." It is well documented that European diseases traveled much faster and wider than the Europeans themselves, wiping out entire regions before Europeans even set foot in the area. This is because the disease was carried by indigenous people who traded, traveled, and waged war among one another.
Except that the so-called "Mayan collapse" being depicted in the movie occurred around 900, which was well before Europeans came to the New World and exposed Natives to diseases like Small Pox.
@@steelheron1309 wiki does say it was meant to be 1502
@@johnballard7775 Fair enough, in the time period of 1500, there would be a slight chance that they could have been exposed to Small Pox, however, what the movie is depicting wasn't a thing in the Mayan civilization in 1500. That was in 900. That's the problem.
@@steelheron1309 I always thought it was the plague.....
@@slipjones2 The Mayan didn't exist in force? The part of the Mayan civilization that built the pyramids, built other architectural structures, used hieroglyphic writing, mastered farming, and mapping the stars was a very strong and unified civilization for a very long time. While the Mayan civilization didn't just disappear, until being conquered by Europeans around 1600, what's known as the classic Mayan collapse (not really a collapse) occurred between 700 to 900 CE. This so-called collapse according to the archeological record, is when a vast majority of the Southern parts of the classic Mayan civilization was abandoned in favor of the Northern region and became more splintered afterwards. The Southern region, where the Mayan civilization basically started saw a boom in population and architectural building from essentially 20 CE onward, then around 700 to 800 CE the population and architectural building slowed down exponentially and disappeared around 900 CE. While there's a lot of theories as to why such a civilization grew then abandoned everything so rapidly is still unknown. However, the one theory that's gaining the most traction is a drought. This drought occurred around the 800 and 900 CE time frame which was depicted in the movie. The problem is that there wasn't any drought around 1500 when the Spanish first arrived in the region which the movie depicted that too. Since the movie showed what is Small Pox, the two events couldn't have occurred at the same time. This really isn't that hard to understand.
This movie is like a anger honeypot for people who care about history, apparently. I just take it as a vague historical medley.
17:46 clearly the spanish Conquistadors lust for gold was so great that they...transcended time and space to arrive 600 years early
21:15
Mayan priest drinking Gatorade is equally accurate to the actual movie's accuracy.
No it's not.
@@widukindgaladh949 yes it is. 🥴
@@widukindgaladh949 you got trolled… damn dude that’s embarrassing
Lmao
🤣🤣
Well I really appreciate your channel and generally enjoy your reviews, you should never review a Mel Gibson film at again. It not only grossly colors your every sentence, it also leads you to make some serious historical errors. No where does Mel Gibson say this film takes place in the 900's. You made an erroneous assumption that the film portrayed the great collapse pf the Classic Mayan period. However, the Maya still existed when the Spanish made landfall and where again experiencing environmental problems very similar to what had ended the Classic period. In the period of first contact (circa 1510), the Maya were again facing major drought or crop failures, which would greatly reduce their ability to resist the Spanish. The heart sacrifices are correct for this time period as the Maya adopted it from the Aztec. While the rate of sacrifice is high, we have substantial evidence that in dire times, these rites might call for the sacrifice of over a thousand people over several days; a full solar eclipse coinciding with famine and a strange new disease would certainly qualify. And speaking of the disease, yeas that's small pox and that's pretty much exactly how it happened. With the very first contact, only a few would have initially been infected. But the infected would move inland, carrying the disease with them. That's clearly what the film is showing.
Finally, your complaint about Jaguar Paw's village are pretty far off. It's clear that the tribe initially shown is from a outlying area. While the classical Mayan city is a large urban area, they did also have small hunter gatherer groups. Alvorado's campaign encountered many of these tribes. Many of them allied with the Spanish because while they ethnically were Mayan, they were not part of the Mayan state. That's why they are attacked and sacrificed in the film. Your complaint about the lack of stone cities is off as well. It's very common in primitive societies for most of their members to never travel more that a dozen miles from their home. In a thick jungle environment, where food and resources are plentiful, long distance travel is both more difficult and unnecessary. And the complaint that no one had seen a stone city in a thousand years doesn't hold up because, as the Maya lacked a written language and had essentially 0 literacy in their own symbology among commoners, anything that happened outside of Jaguar Paw's life would have been essentially myth. And the map you showed of Mayan settlements included all Mayan settlements ever. By the Post Classic period, many of those sites had been abandoned, and completely hidden by the jungle. As we see even today, a tribe could live within a mile of a site, and unless someone stumbled upon the exact site, they might never notice.
You can certainly make the case that you disagree with Gibson's interpretation of what Mayan culture actually looked like, or the scale of certain events, or the interaction between different groups. But most of your stated objections are either blatantly wrong, or issue from false assumptions. Judging by your flexibility in many other films, I think it's pretty clear your hated of Braveheart and The Patriot are coloring everything Mel Gibson does. That's too bad, because despite all of its other problems, Apocalypto is as accurate as a film mainstream film about Pre-Columbian indigenous people can be.
Thank you Mauther for making my argument better then I possibly could have. The whole point of this channel is to essentially fact check films, but this review feels like it's from someone who is so blinded by his hatred for its director, that he's incapable of offering a well-informed unbiased critique. I'm not a fan of Mel Gibson, but this should not be the venue for bashing him for being a douschebag racist.
Mauther Hacksaw Ridge is pretty accurate, with only 2 major exceptions. The film skips the prior battles the protagonist fought in and instead makes it out like Okinawa was the only battle he fought. Also, it crams the whole battle (at least the part he fought in) into 4 days. It took 3 weeks.
Yes, its like he's going out of his way to misunderstand the film. Even as I watched it in the theatre when it first came out, it was clear to me that the first village was an offshoot of the many mayan sub-tribes. And that the little girl's small pox was an indicator of spanish presence in the continent and of things to come. I only questioned the chronology of the mayan civilization coinciding with the spanish arrival but excused it as being a Zapotec, Toltec or any of the other pre-colombian civilizations active in Mesoamerica during the time.
Mauther beautifully said it's a shame Nick couldn't put aside his Mel Gibson hatred.
I agree that smallpox could have and probably did reach the Maya and other indigenous peoples before there was contact with Europeans. However I feel as though I must contents a few points if not for the sake of devil's advocate. Yes it is easy to hide small isolated tribes in jungles, but the few uncontacted tribes live in the Amazon rain forest, while the Yucatan peninsula is mainly a rainforest biome it isn't as large as the size of the Amazon and is different in terms of soil fertility. One jungle may be similar to another but it is small differences that can make the difference between isolation and communication. While it is true that the Spanish had trouble navigating the rainforests without guides, the Maya would not have been so restricted. In the classic era and the postclassic era, many Mayan armies and traders crisis crossed the peninsula. I imagine it wouldn't take long before even the most isolated tribe would have been discovered. I should also say that even though human sacrifice did grow in the Maya region, it did not florish. what I will critise the review for saying heart extraction did exist in the classic era according to current evidence, mostly in the precursor to the Mexica (Ectonym: Aztecs) nation, the city state of Teotihuacan. Even with that said, there is very little to suggest the Mayan's sacrificed often. And they hated it, according to one of my sources. The priest who performed the sacrifice, called the Nacom (not to be mistaken with the military position of the same name) was disliked in the community. Presumably because the concept of sacrifice was mainly brought in by the Toltec invasion of the Yucatan peninsula. Even if there was sacrifices that the Mayans believe needed to be made, it would not have been heart extraction nor would it have been an entire village. Heart extraction tended to be reserved for warriors of great respect or captured leaders. Cenote or decapitation (due to it's association with the Mayan rain God Chaac) would have been the most likely. Even then the Mayans would have sacrificed only a couple of people at most, because: 1) The Mayans were human beings and as I said before disliked human sacrifice, there is a poem named Little Arrow that was used to comfort to the victims of the arrow sacrifice (a native Mayan sacrifice technique at that). WhileI cannot speak with certainty I'd say that to the ancient Mayan sacrificing the amount shown in the film would be a tragic and unnecessary action even in times of drought. 2) In the time of the collapse, every life would have counted, it is not like with the Mexica who had neighboring nations full of people they could point to and say "it's alright to kill them en masse, they are inferior to us". The Mayans, while no strangers to believing in one state being better than another, where on a much more level playing field and were all suffering from the collapse. Nearly all captives (including warriors) would have been made into slaves. Even then, why bother raiding a tribe when you could just make them a vessel. Many Mayan tribes would have been attached to a state/chiefdom as the nearby royal family would install a noble to act as a tribal chieftain, called a Batab who would report to the Halach Unik (pretty much a king). Lastly on the subject of sacrifice, the Mayans waged war the same reason as most other cultures: power. Even the Mexica waged more wars to expand their empire than to capture for sacrifice. Mayan warfare was pretty fascinating in that they liked to leave things intact more or less. When a city state was defeated, the city wasn't razed, the lord wasn't always executed and it's people weren't enslaved or slaughtered. It was far more usful to make a fallen city state a vassal rather than exterminate it. Therefore the raid of the village for the sole purpose of capturing people seems unlikly. Lastly, the no one could blame someone for mistaking the time era, the Mayan's simply weren't making cities on the same scale anymore. Fair enough there was construction, and some city states like Uxmal and Chichen Itza remained population centers for quite some time. But overall, to see buildings like that in the postclassic, it wouldn't be likly.
Lmao "more than likely it's probably a pig, (pig scream)". The whole analysis in a nutshell. Love it 🤣
When a movie is this good, accuracy becomes less important.
I think the smallpox scene showed that Europeans had already arrived. that girl gave a prophesy about it, perhaps because of her interaction with Europeans.
there's no reason to believe the final scene shows Columbus
Yeah, that's part of the problem. The Mayan cities had been abandoned for centuries by the time the Europeans arrived.
Haytham Kenway mayans were eliminated in the 9th century
No, Mayans weren't eliminated in the 9th century. They exist to this day.
Michael Park thats not true the last Mayan great capital city was conquered in 1527 by Herman Cortes. by this time most big cities had been abandoned but the Mayans were still a formidable Empire in the region
Well, not exactly, as the Mayans still existed as city-states during the conquest of the Aztec empire and there were actually one of the biggest allies of Cortes aggaints the Mexicas (the ruling tribe of the Aztec Empire).
Nobody likes mass human sacrifices.
Theory: the Mayans in the movie are die hard cosplay Aztecs playing a live or die Mayan re-enactment.
A lot of the increased human sacrifice is consistent with Terminal Period, which saw increased influence by Toltec/Uto-Aztecan groups.
This is the only way that movie starts making sense thanks, it's a really cool theory.
Actually Nick, Gerónimo de Aguilar shipwrecked on the Yucatan, a few years prior to Cortez. He was used as a translator for Cortez.
Man the amount of inaccuracies in this guys assessment
It is amazing to be how successful the Mayan, and Aztec empires were without iron or horse. Both empires had advanced mathematics, and writing. Their calendars extremely accurate, and a system of calculation and geometry so efficiently both civilizations erected great pyramids without the backbone of Pythagoras.
Alot of that had to do with population. brute force your way to success by having alot of people and alot of food. Gotta remember when the spanish made it to tenochtitlan, the city was bigger and more populated than madrid at the time
@@kyzerBC No, no, I think that has to do with them being humans with brains.
I don't like the idea of dismissing native american success without horses and iron as simply "brute-forcing". It kinda takes away merit where it's certainly due.
@@andreribeiro4639 No doubt they were brilliant, especially considering the acoustic characteristics of their temples, and their knowledge of astronomy. Certainly intelligent people but having alot of people and the means to feed them allows you to focus on such things, rather than being constantly concerned with not starving. And building the structures as large as they did would demand a large pool of man power. In THAT sense, having alot of people meant they didnt need pig iron tools. Probably would have come up with something like that though had they enough time to.
@@andreribeiro4639 Perhaps even obsidian tools? That woulda been awesome
Egyptians predated Pythagoras and didn't know Pi either, and yet built the pyramids.
Nobody expects the Span- You know what? This film doesn't even deserve that joke.
damit gibson
best comment ive seen all day
No one ever expects the mexican inquisition. I didnt. No one ever does.
FortuneZero I think trump is that the real reason for that wall
John Handzlik Nah Trump only has it for criminals and we all know the Inquisition was righteous.
You do a great job and I love watching you, but I was wondering is it hard to enjoy movies because of your vast knowledge
I enjoyed this so much thank you!
You'll take any scenario if it explains how conquistadors traveled back in time 600 years. Okay.
What if rather than depicting the Maya collapse c.900 AD, it was straightforwardly depicting the time of the Yucatan Maya's first contact with the Spanish in 1511? This resolves why some Maya have smallpox, as the Spanish had already made contact with other parts of modern Latin America which meant the spread of disease. Many native Amerindians who died never even saw a white man because the disease traveled so quickly, hence in some areas, smallpox preceded the Spanish. Whether that was the case in the Yucatan, I don't know, but if you give the film artistic license, the conflict is resolved and the plot makes sense. This 1511 date also resolves why the style of sacrifice resembles postclassical Maya sacrifice (it was set in the postclassic era).
I believe the reason for the central conflict of the film is that there is a (whether historical or ahistorical) remnant holdout of urban Maya attacking other Maya groups that had moved away from the urban lifestyle to the hunting culture in the forest, sacrificing their neighbors to ease the burden on their own population.
That...actually makes a lot more sense. After all, the Maya civilization WAS still around in the 16th Century, even if they were in decline whereas the Aztecs were top dog in Mesoamerica.
However, for the sake of comedy, we’ll assume that the conquistadors were time travelers.
This should be the top commentary.
Perfectly makes sense mate... was thinking the same.... they even consulted maya archeologist Richard Hensen for this movie... some youtubers goto any length just to bish bash a movie...
Best comment
There it is, finally a comment that makes perfect sense, he also went for how the natives should speak english so that the common audience digest it better yet nitpicks to the point where if the people breathe inaccurately it is worthy of condemnation.
I'm usually quite fussy about historical inaccuracies but I find this movie absolutely brilliant. It is absolutely gripping from start to finish.
Many of its scenes stuck to my memory like glue. I rewatch it every few years.
It's a great flick.
I watch it several times a year.
@@offtherealm5438
Ha. I haven't seen this one in about 5 or 6 years but I am due.
Eh people get a wrong understanding of the Mayans
@@satanasteguarda It may no longer be a civilization but Mayan people still very much exist and I'm sure they don't like their history being depicted as such
6:40 it IS smallpox from the Europeans. In the beginning of the movie we see an entire tribe passing by jaguar paw/hunters saying they were “raided/looking for new beginnings”. When we see the little girl we can assume she was apart of that same tribe left behind bc after the raid BY THE EUROPEANS there was a disease. (Small pox). If that tribe was raided by the Mayans the men we saw would be the sacrifices instead.
Which makes no freaking sense due to the architecture and size of the cities, along with advanced agriculture and the massive crop failure, and even the film's starting quote clearly indicating the movie takes place during the collapse of the Mayan civilization in the 9th century, about as far removed from smallpox and Spaniards as you are from the Eastern Roman Empire and bloody Joan of Arc.
this movies goes so hard man
The smallpox girl was a prophetic vision bro, use your third eye.
Rather than his brown eye
@@JohnDoe-ee6qs lmao
Yeah I was just thinking that. It’s foreshadowing, maybe there were a few colonists that scouted before the armada arrived and spread the disease idk. Either way I got it and I thought it was a good move by Gibson. The harsh criticism of this point made me skeptical of the rest of the video
The little girl even made a prophecy about the end of their civilization, the whole movie is filled with foreshadowing about the incoming apocalypse, you know, "Apocalypto" ... but, this is a channel about historical accuracy in movies that are label as "historical" so i understand his critisism while i don't really agree with him.
Seems that this was Christopher Columbus fourth travel. Before some years he did visit islands like Cuba and Jamaica. From there some travellers could bring disease to todays Mexico.
Still not as bad as having Xena go from the Battle of Troy to speaking with Julius Caesar.
Julius Caesar? She made it as far as feudal Japan! :)
I'm only up to season two :)
Sorry! Spoilers :S
Don't diss the lady... she had a SLOW horse.
+Slippy Wasn't there an episode or two where she actually did time travel to the 90s or am I misremembering
I have no idea if it is the case but to me seems like all the historical inaccuracy issues exist on the assumption that the events of the movie take place during the Maya Collapse period. What if it is meant to be the near end of the post-Maya period, after Spanish already brought the small pox to the continent. The civilization is at the brink of extinction, most cities depopulated and abandoned. Small pockets of secluded tribes the only ones spared from the plague. Mayas copying sacrificial practices of their more successful Aztec neighbours as the last resort. They hunt these tribesmen as it is the best they can get with their severely diminished capabilities, making up for quality with quantity. Heck, this even explains the number of the ships they see in the last scene. They came in force after already having scouted the area years prior.
It was my impression that we were seeing the very end of the Mayan civilization (with a lot of artistic license taken to show Mayan cities at their height for the visual spectacle) somewhere in the 1500s. After the Spanish had already made contact with the people on Hispaniola and smallpox began to spread to the mainland through trade.
It seems like there's some DVD commentary that more explicitly puts the year in the 1500s, with the Mayans already being influenced by Aztec human sacrifice.
I always kind of saw this movie as being an amalgam of different times and peoples. Rather than a historical film. I watch it in the same lens as inglorious bastards. The inaccuracies aside I find it to be very unique and a solid film. The story is structured, the technical filmmaking is superb. the characters are solid. The actors are put through a lot. And the baddies are scary as hell. I think its a good movie.
You don’t see the problem with a film maker, changing history and affecting the general public’s view of an entire regions history? 21:12 listen to what he says. This is the problem.
@@tumsfestival8027 i understand your point totally.
I just watched the movie, thought it was awesome. The ending was hilarious though (made zero sense indeed) and there were numerous other moments that I was highly skeptical of. so after the movie did some reading and also just landed here on this very informative video. I don't place that kind of blame on Mel Gibson, if you want to learn something about history you should hit the books and not watch exciting action movies. 100% will watch and enjoy again.
@@tumsfestival8027 Nah, I don't. People who watch anything Hollywood makes that expect to reasonably 'learn' anything are rubes, and will essentially believe anything. If it wasn't Mel, it would be someone else. If you watch a cinema blockbuster thinking you're in HIST203, your brain is already mush. I hate Hollywood as much as any reasonable person, but the gullibility of the masses isn't Hollywood's fault.
I think it's supposed to be a dramatized ('apocalyptic' if you will) depiction of postclassical mayan civilization.