Huntsman Mormon Tithing Fraud Case Tossed Out | Ep. 1988
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has unanimously rejected James Huntsman's fraud lawsuit against the LDS/Mormon Church, which claimed that the church misled the membership over its tithing usage.
Join John, Gerardo, and attorney Kolby Reddish to break down the decision.
Show Notes: www.mormonstor...
00:04:26 Initial reactions to the news
00:13:00 Huntsman Procedure Explained
00:15:45 Where the Three Tithing Cases started
00:21:55 False statements made by the Church saying it would NOT use tithing funds
00:48:22 What is the definition of fraud?
01:01:05 The Church omitted half of the statement that changed the meaning
01:10:50 “Reserve funds” come from tithing for a “rainy day”
01:31:00 Why we should all become churches
01:34:47 More from the Majority Decision
01:42:55 Closing thoughts - we need to be accurate on how we talk about it
01:45:10 Judge Bress’ Concurrence
02:06:55 Bumatay’s Concurrence
02:20:55 Summary of the judicial breakdown
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As a non-Mormon, I think the emphasis isn’t on “assurances” but on “wish.” Hinckley and the lawyers were smart, and it was written purposefully. He didn’t say they didn’t use tithing, he just said he “wished” to assure the members. “Wish” as a verb means to hope for something that is most likely unattainable or impossible. Clever wordplay, Gordo.
I understand what you are saying here, but I also understand mormon speak. This phrase is often used to give the impression of softening what could be a chastisement. It’s how they say what they know we are all doing wrong. In this case, it’s voicing concerns about management of tithing.
two problems the church's stance the no tithing money. But never tell us tithing money used for and why the funds were comingled
I'm not surprised of the outcome only because of the floodgate that it would open in the courts and subsequent lawsuits.
How sad. Using what members consider sacred contributions which were invested and grown tax free due to the churches non-profit status, then spend it on for profit businesses. Perhaps it may be somehow “legal”, but it doesn’t seem to be moral or honest. I thought that was important to the church but evidently it’s just for members.
I’d love to see churches taxed as businesses.
Same
I’d just like to see taxes go away in the first place.
That would be a violation of the 1st amendment.
Rome would never let that happen
All church funds initially come from donations. The church does not create a commercial product or service. So, monies now generated by investment are only monies that are generations away from being donations. It's tithing all the way down! The fact that accountants can distinguish them now is just financial legerdemain. Cheers.
City Creek was paid for by my ancestors tithing! I'm 5th generation Mormon.
My grandfather paid tithing until he died in 2000 at 97 yo. My ancestors crossed the plains and gave everything to settle SLC, Bountiful, Kaysville, etc...
City Creek was paid for by tithing!!!!
Oh no! The Church wisely invests its money!
@michaelhutchings6602 if you want to give your money to the church so they can buy more Facebook stock, or build more malls, you have that right.
What i give to my faith is my own business and it's not yours. 😅😅😅
@@michaelhutchings6602 How do you know the church invests wisely? Did the first Presidency tell you that, specifically?
Glad to see Gerardo! It’s been a minute!
Everyone, stop giving your money to the Corporation of the...
Yr lost
That "HEADLINE" made my head nearly explode this morning.
A DONATION is NEVER a REQUIREMENT any time or under any circumstance.
A TITHE is an obligation, whether it is called a civil TAX or a TEMPLE TAX.
What constitutes "reasonable" here????
My cat can tell you the difference tithe/tax and donation. And why a 22:46 CONFLICT OF INTEREST
would require any judge
to whom this description
would apply to RECUSE!
This is the ultimate in betrayal.
Top to bottom.
IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY FOR THE CORPORATION.
And at this point, THAT makes it "about the money" for those of whom the DONATION [for entering their
temple] is REQUIRED under
the aegis
(😂😂😂😂)
of "t i t h e" .
THAT "reasoning" is not only oxymoronic;
it is simply, thoroughly absurd.
And the DANGER of the church's PREVAILING in all its criminal pursuits is both
very real and should be equally alarming for our country and its government.
Incredibly sad
No hope for the justice systems. My god
This decision revolves around keeping the status quo in our judicial system. Thus, preventing the flood gates of millions more lawsuits had the Huntsmen case been successful, and not just for the LDS church, but all churches. Nothing more to it. Our judicial system can produce absurdly bad results at times.
Most judges in utah are connected to the church bloodlines
Question: Does the Mormon church send out a form from the IRS indicating how much members pay per year in tithing? Or is it a honor system?
“There was never much hope, just a fool’s hope.”
-Gandalf
Bummer. But I’m not surprised. The worst part of this outcome is it tells the church that they can continue to be dishonest.
So sorry to hear this, but not surprised, given the Christian Nationalist climate, we are living in…😔
Honestly I would say it's a result of the 9th circuit. Has nothing to do with what you speak of. The ninth is HORRIBLE when it comes to anything of this nature.
>christian nationalist
>mormonism
Yeah… no.
WTH are you talking about? You ok? Seems like you're spewing garbage
@@anandrew6641 christian nationalist climate = Trump being elected to office, pushing forward and ideology known as Christian nationalism.
9th circuit = a level in the court system below the Supreme Court but above local levels that still operates at the federal level for states in the west, including Idaho to California (coincidentally Utah is not included.
Mormonism and Christian nationalism = Christian nationalists do not view Mormonism as Christian, so they are viewed the same as any other out group.
A point I would like to add is if you want to go to the Temple you must be a full tithe payer and you are constantly urged to go to the Temple
Good point.
@peterscott2804
Not just URGED;. more and more, FORCED.
Because the developing foetus of Perdition keeps making new commandments under the cover of the
R U P T U R E.
But in order to obey those, one must obey the others to be QUALIFIED to go to the temple in order to do the things which will be (if not already are) required to QUALIFY to go to the temple.
If someone is unwilling to give 10% why should they be permitted to enter the temple to covenant to give 100%?
@@michaelhutchings6602 People don't know what they are covenenting to. They find out as they are doing it.
Buying a Stairway to Heaven
Not surprised in the slightest. This would have happened in any state in the union.
Oh; Good Morning, y'all.
And Thank You. 🌹
In the part where you reference the StarWars analogy ...”these aren’t the droids your looking for” when Oby know 100% that a lie , they were exactly the droids being looked for ... that’s where the FRAUD OR LIE comes into context ... I’ve said this many MANY TIMES ... remember the Temple Recommend Question “ ARE YOU HONEST IN YOUR DEALINGS WITH YOUR FELLOW MEN” ... if you make a statement , KNOWING FULL WELL ITS A LIE , isn’t that fraud ? ...isn’t it a deception ? AND WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF DECEPTION ??? we know who , don’t we !
In my opinion , everyone of the church leadership , from the president on down , everyone connected to this deception/lie/fraud ( what ever word you wanna call it ) should have their temple recommend(s) revoked , membership revoked , disfellowship revoked and be excommunicated ...even post humorously if needed ... there is only one author of deception and that’s the DEVIL ... so in otherwords the DEVIL is running ( directing ) the Church of Latter Day Saints and NOT our Lord and Saviour JESUS CHRIST !
As side from all the legal jargon, the behavior of the church is misleading and disgusting and all disguised under "commandments" regardless of church behavior.
I am suprised the judges felt confident that a reasonable juror wouldn't see a misrepresentation based on Hinckley's ambiguous statement.
It is possible that Hinckley viewed the interest from the investments as money from commercial interests and not tithing money. Based on this interpretation, Hinckley didn't make a misrepresentation.
On the other hand, the SEC fine showed Hinckley knew that the church included tithing as the invested principal funds for the interest used for the mall construction. Unfortunately, this couldn't be used as part of Huntsman's case.
1st Amendment is a reasonable obstacle, but summary judgment that the church didn’t deceive is a jury factual issue. You can’t get a summary judgment if facts are in dispute. That should be appealed.
Is there another religion that doesn’t allow parishioners into the holiest building (Temple) if they don’t have their tithing up to date?
How can the SEC fine an organization for fraud and then a court turn around and say no fraud?
Different types of fraud
I mean this happens all the time in the USA and for good reason. The judicial branch has the ultimate ability to interpret the law and make sure it’s meted out fairly.
Great video!
Such a disappointment.
Why are there church members suffering such pressure and bring turned away from financial help, particularly with mental health appointment fees, with this amassed wealth? I’m an accountant and I can see where the money isn’t going and that none of it would tank the church.
Sad, but not surprised….
Indeed not surprising. Our country is run by fascists, the government cares more about corporations and conservative institutions of power than it does about individuals.
1:58:15 with regards for the disproportionate amount of catholic appointees, my biggest concern would be how many of them are Opus Dei members.
There's no way the courts can allow this, it would damage a lot of religious giving, not just limiting to LDS, this would open the floodgates of lawsuits and gov would be making religious decisions, which isn't appropriate.
14:16 good point about the en banc. I’d say certain justices are aware of misconduct, but they had to rule on the matter at hand, which seems to have been largely performative from the get go.
Summary judgment is granted if there are no facts in dispute. Clearly facts are in dispute. Appeal.
It was obvious that they would throw it out. All religions,and university, would be sued for same thing and would have to change there whole model in money loop holes from taxes and it would hurt the money schemes in which the world leaders get there money growing and power to the families
53:59 I don’t agree with their decision because to me it seems what the church did was deceitful. However, in this country there is such a reverence for religion in general. Churches usually seem to be given the benefit of the doubt and not just by judges, politicians, and courts but by many people in the society. I think given that leniency it’s not surprising that judges who don’t know the experience of growing up LDS would think jurors would not find them guilty of fraud. I would not have understood this without your great analysis.
2:18:14 Gerardo specifically stated at the beginning of this that he was not talking about political parties when talking about conservatives. There are certainly conservative lgbtq people, but Gerardo is making the point that this particular reading of the constitution is unfavorable to lgbtq people because it would allow religions to not obey anti-discrimination laws. A different conservative gay opinion can be found in the essay, “A Conservative Case For Gay Marriage” by Jason Lee Steorts in which he argues that gay marriage promotes conservative ideals such as the nuclear family. I did not get the idea that Gerardo was saying gay folks aren’t conservative but that they don’t usually support a perspective that encourages discrimination against them.
I wish I lived in a time and place where religion didn’t take precedence. They seem to always win. Sigh. 😔
USSR?
PIMO here with experience in Real Estate development. I don’t really find the City Creek situation as fraud. I can see a lot institutional and financial value.
Temple building and missionary work, as a matter of religious belief, is a much bigger waste of resources
Your right on that ! Temles are a complete waste! They have to spend there money now so in there mind let's build temples that nobody uses! If they can get you to go you have to pay to play! I wonder how much money per ft is spent on a temple these days?
While I was a fundie Catholic I really disliked Protestants but barely took seriously the Mormons (and so did some of the other Catholics I knew) because we wondered how could anyone fall for such an obvious false prophet and this was years before I started listening to your podcast and learning more about him, I knew there was already some sort of alliance between Catholics and Evangelicals in particular but I didn’t think I would see one with Mormons as well and time will only tell how that plays out.
I formally converted to Unitarian Universalism when I left Christianity altogether as that was the closest thing to a secular church/community until I found the much smaller atheist group more recently, with the latter we’ve sometimes pondered whether we should register as a church and thus become the secular church y’all were talking about but I think the American Humanist Association is the closest thing to that as far as I know.
The context was overlooked...unless you live in Utah among believing Mormons and was a believer at one time. No one outside of Utah would ever understand that context. It is a very difficult thing to prove in court that the context matters when you live in Utah among believing Mormons, we all knew the funds came from tithing for the Mall. Now would we admit that out loud and in public, typically no, but in private that is all we talked about. Everything started with tithing..we believed paying our tithing would result in blessings..and we were led to believe having a really cool Mall was a blessing, yes we are really that gullible.
No one outside Utah? You do know there are members in most countries of the world? Just the same as being a member in London in UK. The tithing thing is exactly the same requirement if you are “in”
@@egriffiths8993 yes I know there are members all over the world. Do you live in Utah? I was talking about the context of living in Utah during that time...the Mormon context is hard thing to demonstrate in court, wouldn't you agree? Did you know the funds for Mall came from tithing?
@@PARebeccaI live in Idaho. Was born and raised in Utah. Had to move for my husband’s job, 25 years ago. Ex-Mormon. Still very active in Utah politics and Religion. Know some details of this case.
Flatly incorrect. You don't speak for most of us.
@@shanejensen8484 what am I incorrect about?
The church always has been wand always will be deceitful.
Thanks!
Legal question for Colby or another lawyer: Why is the court is focusing on a question of fact (what a jury could believe) in a summary judgment motion?
Summary judgment motions are supposed to be based on pure law. Thus, assuming that the jury believes everything factually laid out by the plaintiff (Huntsman paid tithing based on Hinckley’s statements), can the law allow relief? If so, then Huntsman should make it past this SJ hurdle and be allowed to trial to prove his factual case. Instead, the 9th Circuit is discussing evidence that has yet to be submitted.
Am I misunderstanding this? Is the Court saying that the jury would not be permitted to find Huntsman’s factual claims true as a matter of law?
You’re not misunderstanding-Judges are allowed to accept the facts as pleaded by the non-moving party (Huntsman) but they’re not supposed to be finding facts at this stage.
This is why all of the decision focused on what “any reasonable juror” would believe. That’s an appropriate question to resolve on summary judgment.
I mean… did they ask any jurors??
I dunno… that could be true for the jurors in that district, but…
Seems like they should have checked to see if that assumption has merit.
So with this are they going to use this chiice qill mean they will get worse
Mormons judging Mormons.
Really?
🙏💜
This is an information episode for people that don’t understand legalese. For the love of xenu and Zeus stop leading off sentence that are to explain something with “you know!!!” We don’t know!!!!
Count me in as well!
The judge got paid off
Eventho John disagreed, I wouldn’t put it past them., they want the $ to continue to flow in.
Not so hard to believe when they've had their attorneys pay off town council members in the recent past.
However, when the venue is in Utah they often don't need to be paid off; we swim in kool-aid here.
I think there are lots of better explanations than this. Namely religious bias.
11 judges all colluded together to receive equal bribes. Um sure.
You think it’s more likely all the judges were paid off by the church rather than the scenario where their pro-religious bias weighs in?
Misstated @2:03:20 that "6 out of 9 is more than 70%". No, 6/9 = ⅔ ≈ 66.67%
Whoops--thank you for the correction!
Glad to see that the courts can see 🌻
A credible source who's in the military told me that the parking lot under the City Creek Mall goes down around 30 levels. Makes me think of Hinkley's quote in his 2003 statement, "The property needs very extensive and expensive renovation. We have felt it imperative to do something to revitalize this area." Why would there be around 30 levels underground? Connecting tunnels to the temple? I hope someone can find a way. Thank you, Mr. Huntsman, for your bravery and courage!! Thank you, Mormon Stories Podcast!!
Now that the desnetors have gone against the lord and defamed the church, are they going to bag for Gods mercy? They went adainst God ,,whole hog.
Who took 10% of your income first Brigham Young are the IRS
God Bless The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints!!! It is True
No it's not.
Is Salt Lake City a sanctuary city?
Is Utah a sanctuary state?
Please keep politics off of this channel.
💯 % agree!
As tiring as political discussions can be these days, the reality is that the Mormon Church wields vast wealth and serious political influence that has real world consequences effecting the society we all live in. These topics are entirely relevant Mormon Stories. To ignore the power dynamics of such institutions is both naive and dangerous.
Religion is the twin control arm of politics. There is no real separation between church and state.
Butthurt Stories
He didn’t do it to the Church he did it to GOD!! That’s who he has to answer too!
Thanks!
Thanks!