Very informative. No mention of the indirect. Those tankless heaters always remind me of the F-1 engines that were used on the first stage of the Saturn V rocket. Or, like the inside of a 1940's TV with too many components waiting to fail.
It also depends on the house size and length of the water runs from the heater- I now have a 70s efficiently sized and optimized 2 story, with short water pipe runs- our summer gas bill is $25-$28 per month. In my old 2008 oversized, thrown together 2 story that was a new-construction with terrible stack-effect, the water runs were really long and the showers would take at least 1 minute to get hot. We would use about 50-75 G of propane over the summer (including clothes drying), which was about $50 per month. Another reason I don't miss that house! Great and clear explanation as always!
Have a gas water heater and gas oven and we cook a lot and our gas bill is still in the 30 dollar range most of that is fees associated with having gas so it can't be costing that much
Roger, Im gonna have to disagree with you on gas vs electric tank water heaters. Gas water heaters are far more efficient than electric at least up here in the Midwest where NG is cheap. And also on most Bradford gas tanks it says the average cost to run one is about $280 per year versus an electric water heater that is around $550. Also, elements go bad left and right. Gas valves go bad too but i see more elements going bad especially if the water quality is not that great. The heat pump water heater is a totally different story though.
I would definitely agree with your comment. I do facility type work, our company owns 5 homes. They have the same amount of people in each, the ones with electric wh run about $80-100 more a month.
@AmericanFarmerHVAC2024 I've only installed 2 have yet to have any issues. I do hvac so thats more my ballpark anyway. There's really good rebates on them but I wouldn't put one in my house. Too many moving parts just to heat some damn water. I'm good with a gas tank.
So far I haven't seen anything that beats gas in performance. Heat pumps or electric in commercial buildings that I've seen installed with good environmental feelings in mind. Just have not been able to do the job. Solar on a domestic level are amazing after several year when you get back what you invested.
Can't believe no mention of the fact tankless offers endless hot water, no running out of hot water. Tanks have 1st hour amount of hot water, and recovery, both are very important in decision making
Only seen a couple of tankless electric water heaters, more electric tankless boilers, tankless electric takes a lot of power to run 15-18kw might be 2 x60a breakers to run; customers only have 100 amp panel and want to switch from tank gas to tank electric and have a full panel is fairly common in small town Iowa. One guy had 200a panel with 100a sub panel in house bought his own tankless electric water heater and it required 3x60a breakers to run, I told him his electrician would have to do some work for it to work correctly.
I have a tankless (5 yr old Noritz ) and a tank (10 yr old AOSmith) piped in series with bypass / isolation valves (if I need to service one or during a power outage) and temperature gauges (has made troubleshooting the tankless easier). The tankless provides an “endless” flow of hot water but has always been a bit of headache. The original control board firmware was faulty and would shutdown the unit on overheat everyday during the summer. Most techs at Nortiz were clueless but finally connected with a tech that knew about the problem after two years of struggling with it. I had to change out the exchanger after three years as it had developed a crack. Not an easy job but got it done. All covered under warranty but my time and a few plumber call outs were not. The AOSmith tank has been a workhorse. It functions during power outages whereas the tankless will not (hurricanes and ice storms here in Houston) After 10 yrs it just started to leak, so time for a new tank.
Roger, can you do a video about an older guy starting a new career as a plumber? Does it happen? I'm 49 and I need a totally new career. I'm tired of not making any good $$$!
You can make a lot of money as a plumber, but you're going to work your butt off. My daddy was a plumber, and in this frigid weather, he'd leave the house about 6AM and not get home till maybe 11PM. He., get up the next day and do it all again̈ . You need a strong stomach when you clean those sewer lines out too. My daddy worked for hisself and didn't get paid in the 50's, 60's , and 70's like they do now, but he didn't alright
Where I live we mainly use electric water tanks. Most home have to replace them every 5 years due to corrosion causing leaks. Would there be A proffered system that would not rust
Great video Roger, but if you living in RSA, the electricity prices are insane, so electric heaters or geysers as we call them, are ripping people off! It sounds like a usual gas boiler will be the heater to go for here.
The water heater in my house is 25 years old. It's leaking, so it's ready to be replaced. Getting a new electric panel and solar panels installed soon, thinking I might as well have the electricians set up so I can have a heat pump water heater installed.
One thing that should have been noted is that tank less water heaters are only available in wall mounted units ( At least within the last 4 years since I had to go shopping for one). It was a major surprise that we couldn't go tank less without a lot of extra construction when replacing the otherwise free standing gas water heater.
My only problem with tankless is the repair bills. Yes you save money and never run out of hot water. However plumbers charge a lot to replace warranty parts. I wish they would make a residential stainless steel tank heater.
A lot of the reason the repair is so expensive is that, especially here in TX most plumbers don't deal with tankless on a day to day basis so it takes a bit more time...that's one thing I'm trying to educate more plumbers on..
I have my tank type gas water heater so well insulated the pilot will keep it hot enough to keep the thermostat satisfied for up to 10 days on vacation. Here’s a little test to see how well your water heater insulation is . Before going on vacation turn the thermostat to the pilot setting only ( don’t touch the temperature setting ). When you get back home from vacation just turned the same knob back to ON, if the burner kicks in “ your tank insulation is not great” if the burner stays off like mine does (every single test 10 days or less ) your insulation is great and give yourself a pat on the back.Note: my water heater is located in the basement.
So, you use your gas furnace to heat your house. Then your heat pump uses some of that heat from the house to heat your water. And then your furnace has to come on again to replace that heat. Did you include that heat loss in your efficiency rating?
What about the power vent gas water heater you show the oldest style gas water heater also electric is expensive as hell my gas bill in the winter with a 50 gallon water heater is about 60 bucks and my electric bill is 250
I NEVER have to change anode rod in my electric duron tank because there is no anode rod. What was the issue with these tanks that caused a 2000 class-action lawsuit.
Gas WH doesn't have any insulation on inside exhaust pipe. And it's significant heat losses. Indirect water heater, with boiler is one more good option.
Efficency ...interesting word. Economic or fuel efficency? IF IF IF they are installed correctly and IF IF IF they are maintained correctly and IFIFIF they don't break down..YES they are the ones to buy but......something about simplicity (and piece of mind) is worth it's weight in gold in my world.
Gas is super cheap where we live. Gas furnace + range + oven + dryer saves us a lot of money. The US is swimming in natural gas though prices range by region..
My house is over 50 years old so I would most likely have to upgrade my gas line for a tankless unit. That's not a DIY project for me. I can install the heater but running a new line is beyond my capabilities at this time. Same for upgrading my breaker box or installing a sub panel to install another 220v breaker and line if I wanted to convert to electric. The money it would cost would be better spent on a new roof.
My gas heater is slowly dripping internally and occasionally putting out the pilot light. There's a small puddle that keeps coming back in the containment dike it sits in so I jumped on the grenade and ordered a new one. Will have in 2 days. There are some termite damaged studs in the corner of the garage where the tank is mounted in the containment system so will take off 3 days to fix the wall and replace the heater. Fortunately I can shower at planet fitness until the job is done.
Nice BUT you need to look at YOUR actual energy costs locally. If not all is not accurate. 20% for hw cost - no way for me. Where did that come from. Mine total gas bill for year includes heat, hw, cooking, laundry etc is 1k living in the NE. All you need to do is check your gas/utilities over the year and see what you are actually spending.
Hybrid water heaters are actually the most inefficient if you're no longer ignoring the first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy. Where is that heat energy in the ambient air coming from in the winter time? It is coming from your furnace. So your furnace is supplying the thermal energy for the heat pump water heater to utilize. Conservation of energy dictates everytime energy changes form, you lose energy to heat and friction. Furnace most likely only 92%-95% efficent. There is 5-8% loss from the start, then while the heat is "floating around" in the air, waiting to be picked up by the hybrid water heater, more is lost to inefficencies in thermal loss of the home. Then factor in the efficency of the hybrid heater being at best 90%, you have lost 25% of your energy over directly using it heat the water with a traditional gas or electric.
The heat pump water heater moves energy from the air to the water. Yes, during the cold winter, it's less efficient than gas or electric. But, in fall, spring, or summer, the heat pump at roughly 3x efficiency will be more efficient. Over the entire year, a heat pump will be more efficient.
every appliance I have ever replaced to save money on energy has made no difference at all never saw any savings on my bill I buy for reliability and performance which one is the best performance if it does not give me unlimited hot water showers it's not for me I use a power vent 40 gallon gas water heater 50,000 btu that is fairly new 2019 and supposedly energy saving. the old one was better it used a pilot light which kept water warm and had consistent temperature the new one has electric ignition, so temp goes up and down in heater before it kicks on to keep water hot.
Navien npe is by FAR the superior water heater if you consider customer service, efficiency, durability, and maintenance. Rinnai makes great units also but their customer service has gone to shit. ANY tank heater is garbage and you’ll be lucky to get over 10 years out of it anymore.
Love how your videos are not advertisements for certain companies love it!
Very informative. No mention of the indirect. Those tankless heaters always remind me of the F-1 engines that were used on the first stage of the Saturn V rocket. Or, like the inside of a 1940's TV with too many components waiting to fail.
It also depends on the house size and length of the water runs from the heater- I now have a 70s efficiently sized and optimized 2 story, with short water pipe runs- our summer gas bill is $25-$28 per month. In my old 2008 oversized, thrown together 2 story that was a new-construction with terrible stack-effect, the water runs were really long and the showers would take at least 1 minute to get hot. We would use about 50-75 G of propane over the summer (including clothes drying), which was about $50 per month. Another reason I don't miss that house!
Great and clear explanation as always!
Is gas better than the hybrid model though? 1980s house single story
Great video brother ! You are on another level
I appreciate that! Thanks for watching
Fantastic!!
Bring on the details cause I'm getting ready to replace a leaky water heater.
You got it!
Looks like an electric water heater is the best I can do without upgrade costs. Thank you so much!
Hey Roger, which water heater do you have? We want you have
I have a gas tank water heater
Have a gas water heater and gas oven and we cook a lot and our gas bill is still in the 30 dollar range most of that is fees associated with having gas so it can't be costing that much
Roger, Im gonna have to disagree with you on gas vs electric tank water heaters. Gas water heaters are far more efficient than electric at least up here in the Midwest where NG is cheap. And also on most Bradford gas tanks it says the average cost to run one is about $280 per year versus an electric water heater that is around $550. Also, elements go bad left and right. Gas valves go bad too but i see more elements going bad especially if the water quality is not that great. The heat pump water heater is a totally different story though.
I would definitely agree with your comment. I do facility type work, our company owns 5 homes. They have the same amount of people in each, the ones with electric wh run about $80-100 more a month.
The heat pump water heater is all fun and games until the compressor blows out.
@AmericanFarmerHVAC2024 I've only installed 2 have yet to have any issues. I do hvac so thats more my ballpark anyway. There's really good rebates on them but I wouldn't put one in my house. Too many moving parts just to heat some damn water. I'm good with a gas tank.
@@thomaskaraindros28 I agree. Though the heat pump part would be awesome for some basement air conditioning in the summer time lol
So far I haven't seen anything that beats gas in performance. Heat pumps or electric in commercial buildings that I've seen installed with good environmental feelings in mind. Just have not been able to do the job. Solar on a domestic level are amazing after several year when you get back what you invested.
Great info Roger! Thanks
Any time!
Very informative as always 👏
Glad you think so!
What do you personally have at your house Roger if I may ask ? Thank you for being amazing mentor to all new tradesmen
I have a gas tank type
Love this information, thanks for sharing, Roger!
Great and amazing video yet again! I do want to say that you did not mention running an exhaust/intake for the tankless water heat.
What about the oil boiler type water heaters? A lot of homes up here in the Northeast still use them.
What brand Heat Pump do you recommend, Bradford White or Rheem?
They are both good. I've always like BW
@ Thanks
Can't believe no mention of the fact tankless offers endless hot water, no running out of hot water. Tanks have 1st hour amount of hot water, and recovery, both are very important in decision making
Yea. I have a tankless. I hate it. Constant problems. I miss my tank
Only seen a couple of tankless electric water heaters, more electric tankless boilers, tankless electric takes a lot of power to run 15-18kw might be 2 x60a breakers to run; customers only have 100 amp panel and want to switch from tank gas to tank electric and have a full panel is fairly common in small town Iowa. One guy had 200a panel with 100a sub panel in house bought his own tankless electric water heater and it required 3x60a breakers to run, I told him his electrician would have to do some work for it to work correctly.
I have a tankless (5 yr old Noritz ) and a tank (10 yr old AOSmith) piped in series with bypass / isolation valves (if I need to service one or during a power outage) and temperature gauges (has made troubleshooting the tankless easier).
The tankless provides an “endless” flow of hot water but has always been a bit of headache. The original control board firmware was faulty and would shutdown the unit on overheat everyday during the summer. Most techs at Nortiz were clueless but finally connected with a tech that knew about the problem after two years of struggling with it. I had to change out the exchanger after three years as it had developed a crack. Not an easy job but got it done. All covered under warranty but my time and a few plumber call outs were not.
The AOSmith tank has been a workhorse. It functions during power outages whereas the tankless will not (hurricanes and ice storms here in Houston) After 10 yrs it just started to leak, so time for a new tank.
Roger, can you do a video about an older guy starting a new career as a plumber? Does it happen? I'm 49 and I need a totally new career. I'm tired of not making any good $$$!
There is no age cap on when you can change or start a new career in the trades...Get started now and make that money!!
@@RogerWakefield THANK YOU, BUDDY! 😀
You can make a lot of money as a plumber, but you're going to work your butt off. My daddy was a plumber, and in this frigid weather, he'd leave the house about 6AM and not get home till maybe 11PM. He., get up the next day and do it all again̈
. You need a strong stomach when you clean those sewer lines out too. My daddy worked for hisself and didn't get paid in the 50's, 60's , and 70's like they do now, but he didn't alright
He did alright. He took pride in his work and was always busy.
Where I live we mainly use electric water tanks. Most home have to replace them every 5 years due to corrosion causing leaks. Would there be A proffered system that would not rust
Great video Roger, but if you living in RSA, the electricity prices are insane, so electric heaters or geysers as we call them, are ripping people off! It sounds like a usual gas boiler will be the heater to go for here.
The water heater in my house is 25 years old. It's leaking, so it's ready to be replaced.
Getting a new electric panel and solar panels installed soon, thinking I might as well have the electricians set up so I can have a heat pump water heater installed.
One thing that should have been noted is that tank less water heaters are only available in wall mounted units ( At least within the last 4 years since I had to go shopping for one). It was a major surprise that we couldn't go tank less without a lot of extra construction when replacing the otherwise free standing gas water heater.
My only problem with tankless is the repair bills. Yes you save money and never run out of hot water. However plumbers charge a lot to replace warranty parts. I wish they would make a residential stainless steel tank heater.
A lot of the reason the repair is so expensive is that, especially here in TX most plumbers don't deal with tankless on a day to day basis so it takes a bit more time...that's one thing I'm trying to educate more plumbers on..
I have my tank type gas water heater so well insulated the pilot will keep it hot enough to keep the thermostat satisfied for up to 10 days on vacation. Here’s a little test to see how well your water heater insulation is . Before going on vacation turn the thermostat to the pilot setting only ( don’t touch the temperature setting ). When you get back home from vacation just turned the same knob back to ON, if the burner kicks in “ your tank insulation is not great” if the burner stays off like mine does (every single test 10 days or less ) your insulation is great and give yourself a pat on the back.Note: my water heater is located in the basement.
So, you use your gas furnace to heat your house. Then your heat pump uses some of that heat from the house to heat your water. And then your furnace has to come on again to replace that heat.
Did you include that heat loss in your efficiency rating?
What about the power vent gas water heater you show the oldest style gas water heater also electric is expensive as hell my gas bill in the winter with a 50 gallon water heater is about 60 bucks and my electric bill is 250
I NEVER have to change anode rod in my electric duron tank because there is no anode rod. What was the issue with these tanks that caused a 2000 class-action lawsuit.
Gas WH doesn't have any insulation on inside exhaust pipe. And it's significant heat losses. Indirect water heater, with boiler is one more good option.
Efficency ...interesting word. Economic or fuel efficency? IF IF IF they are installed correctly and IF IF IF they are maintained correctly and IFIFIF they don't break down..YES they are the ones to buy but......something about simplicity (and piece of mind) is worth it's weight in gold in my world.
We are upgrading to the heat pump pur government will give us $5,000 back if we install one. I think we have 1 more year with our gas heater.
Gas will always win
Gas is super cheap where we live. Gas furnace + range + oven + dryer saves us a lot of money. The US is swimming in natural gas though prices range by region..
I’ve always been a fan of gas, but yeah you’re right, it all depends where you live.
My house is over 50 years old so I would most likely have to upgrade my gas line for a tankless unit. That's not a DIY project for me. I can install the heater but running a new line is beyond my capabilities at this time. Same for upgrading my breaker box or installing a sub panel to install another 220v breaker and line if I wanted to convert to electric. The money it would cost would be better spent on a new roof.
My gas heater is slowly dripping internally and occasionally putting out the pilot light. There's a small puddle that keeps coming back in the containment dike it sits in so I jumped on the grenade and ordered a new one. Will have in 2 days. There are some termite damaged studs in the corner of the garage where the tank is mounted in the containment system so will take off 3 days to fix the wall and replace the heater. Fortunately I can shower at planet fitness until the job is done.
Come on, Roger, you go on vacation. You shut the water here off
I also shut off the pilot on the gas water heater.
Gas or electric. Less moving parts, cheaper to service and/or replace.
Basic electric converted to solar is the best.
Nice BUT you need to look at YOUR actual energy costs locally. If not all is not accurate.
20% for hw cost - no way for me. Where did that come from.
Mine total gas bill for year includes heat, hw, cooking, laundry etc is 1k living in the NE.
All you need to do is check your gas/utilities over the year and see what you are actually spending.
Gas is cheaper to buy than electricity where I live in Michigan, USA.
Hybrid water heaters are actually the most inefficient if you're no longer ignoring the first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy. Where is that heat energy in the ambient air coming from in the winter time? It is coming from your furnace. So your furnace is supplying the thermal energy for the heat pump water heater to utilize. Conservation of energy dictates everytime energy changes form, you lose energy to heat and friction. Furnace most likely only 92%-95% efficent. There is 5-8% loss from the start, then while the heat is "floating around" in the air, waiting to be picked up by the hybrid water heater, more is lost to inefficencies in thermal loss of the home. Then factor in the efficency of the hybrid heater being at best 90%, you have lost 25% of your energy over directly using it heat the water with a traditional gas or electric.
The heat pump water heater moves energy from the air to the water. Yes, during the cold winter, it's less efficient than gas or electric. But, in fall, spring, or summer, the heat pump at roughly 3x efficiency will be more efficient. Over the entire year, a heat pump will be more efficient.
25 or more years, never changed the anode rod.
every appliance I have ever replaced to save money on energy has made no difference at all never saw any savings on my bill I buy for reliability and performance which one is the best performance if it does not give me unlimited hot water showers it's not for me I use a power vent 40 gallon gas water heater 50,000 btu that is fairly new 2019 and supposedly energy saving. the old one was better it used a pilot light which kept water warm and had consistent temperature the new one has electric ignition, so temp goes up and down in heater before it kicks on to keep water hot.
Navien npe is by FAR the superior water heater if you consider customer service, efficiency, durability, and maintenance.
Rinnai makes great units also but their customer service has gone to shit.
ANY tank heater is garbage and you’ll be lucky to get over 10 years out of it anymore.