Isai Orozco nah, both story and variety of stuff, u2 was superior, at that time jackass was uber popular, and those guys combined with skating legends in same story, its was beyond epicness
My dad walked in at 8pm while I was playing the Dominoes pizza demo of Tony hawks pro skater 2. My dad walked in again at 6am while I was still playing he said, "What is this a Casino?" I couldn't believe I spent all night playing the Marseille France stage. Miss my dad.
+MrDarcyIsHere Lol yeah right. Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate 2, Quake 2, Halo 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, Zelda Ocarina of Time, Might and Magic 6, Heroes of M&M3 and a ton of other gaming history defining sequels even don't know what to say about your statement.
This game change our lives for ever.. Me and my friends complete the game with every player, including Spiderman and the fat guy.. Sing his songs.. I still listen Millencolin.. Play multiplayer all day.. And then go out to skate in the school at the next street of our houses.. Incredible days, 14 years ago.. Greetings from Argentina.. (Steve Caballero 4ever!)
This game is definitely the best game of all time for me. No other game in the history of gaming, made me actually want to go out and learn a skill. This game also revolutionized the skating industry as well, spawning skate shops in many cities. I miss those days of playing this game and then actually going outside and trying to mimic what I just played. I still skate a bit nowadays because of this game.
Good games reward us players somehow, the best games/books/movies those that truly can be said to be the best, these give something back to the player he never knew he had lost.
I became really good at skating from 13-25 because of this game. I’d do the exact same thing, I’d do tricks on the game then practice them in real life until I landed it
@RIZKYYY I played THPS2, THPS3 (never finished it), THPS4, THUG, and THUG2... good times... though THUG and THUG2 went a bit overboard with mature content, which did not thrill my parents. :|
@@dirtnugget5968 😆 I know this isnt the first Tony Hawk Pro Skater but I remember when i would do so good at the tricks I knew...i would actidentally do a Kickflip to Indy on the ground 😂😂
I still remember Christmas morning trying to explain to my dad why I was starting on the third level. I had secret been playing it one run at a time whenever I got the chance.
This game is so complete it's incredible. I remember playing it at the age 12 on my Windows 98 at home... So many memories. I get emotional by watching this video, and by watching OP finishing 100% and collecting all the tapes and bucks I tried and retried a million times without succeeding...
this is the game that got me into skrateboarding, i was such a naive youngin, i was really mad when i learned you cant just casually roll up on any old street curb and grind it to gain more speed, you gain a lot of road rash and gravel in your hands
I remember a friend told me about it and I was so excited to try it out. Nowadays you can Google any game and see every "secret/hidden" thing it kind of ruins it. You don't have to look but the temptations always there. You can literally fact check people instantaneously and that's kind of weird lol
Actually, yes. But I wanted to assure myself if THPS2 for sure has time limit. I've played it only in two... periods. One is childhood (8yo, when the game came out), but never career, second is when I tried on PC. I learned then, that it has time limit. I wished it didn't. I love THPS4, but I hate THPS2 for having one. Will never play the THPS game with time limit. Maybe if the remaster will get rid of it... But still, the game is super short. THPS4 was way longer. Even considerign speedrun. More challanges to do. Both PSX and PC versions.
I remember trying out Resident Evil 2 and scared to go back on it. The Dukes Of Hazard and Worlds Scariest Police Chases on PS1 are other classic's for me.
Barty Crouch Jr. i had a neighbor that could reach all the tasks and items while doin the tricks infact he would get times i dnt knw how much and the ps1 would stop and froze cause the tony hawk game didn have that high fuckd up high score man i swear and each time he did the same for the fuck of it.
What made this game so popular (aside from how addictive it was), was that it came out at a perfect time. When skateboarding was just starting to go mainstream.
i think i tried and tried, and getting everything plus all the cash, i just don't know if it can be done :P I think you can get everything but the cash
At the school you didn't grind off the top of the golf cart 🤦🏾♂️ anywho, still one THEE greatest games ever made. Definitely getting this again. Nostalgia at its finest 🤘🏾
spent my entire childhood playing this game, never got 100% because i didn't know about the hole in one part of the first competition until now. Well, time to dig out my PlayStation and memory card and right a 17 year old wrong.
I fucking thank this game for making me into a hardcore skater, becoming good, eventually trading in the board for a bottle, becoming homeless, then successful, then here I am a pushing 30's male looking back at my past life almost crying of the intentions I had from this game, Thank You Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 for having such a huge impact on my life. SK8ER for life homes.
damn, when i was skating (1995/2004 i only have vhs videotapes do learn some tricks, now you have youtube full of videos explaining how yo do it, and this kind of games, i am getting old :(
I did use the fly cheat back in the day to do 100% on every character in the game including the unlockables, i beat every single session highscores, got all the gaps before youtube was around even in skate heaven (i used text based guides tho like gamefaqs). I built tons of parks and even played all the premade parks and played the Matt hoffman demo. I beat absolutely everything this game had to offer.
another secret room in the schoolyard after the second school bell rings grind the rail and the gym doors open up to a basketball court and a swimming pool
I played THE SHIT out of this game as a kid. I even have a playlist with the soundtrack to listen when I snowboard (totally sick!)... but at 5:55, I was like "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT????". Never even know about that secret section. Mind = blown.
You didn't wonder where the other money was? I found the place by accident once because I messed up a grind and faceplanted the thing you have to hit to open the area. As I rose to my feet, the hole opened for me to skate in.
I had no idea some of the money in Bullring was hidden in literal bullcrap. As I was watching you do that, though, I was like, "That is such bull****". Only a few seconds later had I realized the stellar unintentional pun. Amazing job, though. I'm currently working on 100%ing the game as Tony Hawk without buying any stats, but I'm starting to believe it to be impossible. The Secret Tape in Venice and Drain the Fountain in Philadelphia are the only two goals I have left, I think, and then as far as money goes I think I am probably about 90% done with it aside from Bullring. But I believe I will just have to give up on my dream. When I saw even you adding stats to your character, I realized that this dream of mine was perhaps not rooted in reality. I could easily get the Drain the Fountain one with infinite grind on, and grind the wire that has the secret tape on it all the way to the building (I did make it to the secret tape), but part of challenging yourself to something nigh impossible is not using cheats. Kind of takes away the whole purpose of doing it in the first place. Sorry for the rambling. I have a huge respect for speedrunners and I love this run of yours in particular. I assumed that a good time on a 100% speedrun for this game would require you to do all the goals in every level in a single run, but you make it seem rather impossible to do so. The levels are much bigger in this game than the first one, plus there are two times as many goals. Great run!
Sin duda alguna es el mejor juego que jugué en mi infancia. Recuerdo aquellas veces que se me dificultaba alcanzar diferentes obstáculos :') Espero y tener de vuelta un N64 en mis manos con ese maravilloso juego.
compra un n64 con una unidad everdrive o en mejor caso emúlalo y juega con un control o con teclado. las mejores versiones de este juego son la de Dreamcast y PC. la versión de PC anda en una papa y pesa 600mb.
This game ruined my fall 2000 semester of college. Totally worth it.
Brad Kinder lol
I assume the rest of them ruined by thps 3 then lol.
Ya but you still suck
I think we all lost a semester somewhere on this one
Dang bro, I was born in fall 2000 lol
I still look at this as one of the best games ever created
yes yes!
+Cory Weier underground 2 was better imo
+MindaugasLegend underground was better than underground 2
Isai Orozco nah, both story and variety of stuff, u2 was superior, at that time jackass was uber popular, and those guys combined with skating legends in same story, its was beyond epicness
+MindaugasLegend not even, That kid cripple kid was beyond annoying the soundtrack was sub or compared to thps2 or thug
My dad walked in at 8pm while I was playing the Dominoes pizza demo of Tony hawks pro skater 2. My dad walked in again at 6am while I was still playing he said, "What is this a Casino?" I couldn't believe I spent all night playing the Marseille France stage. Miss my dad.
I had that demo too, i freaking loved it.
coming back man. hope the nostalgia feels good 🤟🏼
was it thps 2 that had the hofman bmx demo/
@@moist.teabag I think so. I can't exactly remember, but 2 is the disc I actually owned so I bet it is.
Bro those demos were the greatest. I still have my Pizza Hut demo with Metal Gear Solid on it. These were better times.
My childhood in 20 minutes.
so damn true
zhorC i would dream about finding all the tapes. It took my whole childhood too.
***** It is to be considered the best in the series. I highly recommend it.
Ironknuckle229or94 Indeed, it took me forever to 100% this game. One of the best sport games of all time.
True
This might possibly be the best video game sequel of all time. What it did for the genre and pop culture is almost unrivaled.
This was the shit, nothing compares to this
+MrDarcyIsHere Lol yeah right. Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate 2, Quake 2, Halo 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, Zelda Ocarina of Time, Might and Magic 6, Heroes of M&M3 and a ton of other gaming history defining sequels even don't know what to say about your statement.
***** Wow, what a convenient thing to type when you can't prove anything with your (absent) arguments!
***** I agree, my arguments were plentiful and valid.
***** Thanks mate, I'm glad that you wrote an another typical "I have no arguments" phrase one more time.
This game change our lives for ever.. Me and my friends complete the game with every player, including Spiderman and the fat guy.. Sing his songs.. I still listen Millencolin.. Play multiplayer all day.. And then go out to skate in the school at the next street of our houses.. Incredible days, 14 years ago.. Greetings from Argentina.. (Steve Caballero 4ever!)
Vivi exactamente lo mismo saludos desde Mexico.
denso estrada Incredible! Saludos!
officer Dick ftw
sirdan fortesque Haha, yeh, that guy!
hell yeah i miss this !
This game is definitely the best game of all time for me. No other game in the history of gaming, made me actually want to go out and learn a skill. This game also revolutionized the skating industry as well, spawning skate shops in many cities. I miss those days of playing this game and then actually going outside and trying to mimic what I just played. I still skate a bit nowadays because of this game.
BryGuySaysHi exactly right?i love it
Good games reward us players somehow, the best games/books/movies those that truly can be said to be the best, these give something back to the player he never knew he had lost.
I became really good at skating from 13-25 because of this game. I’d do the exact same thing, I’d do tricks on the game then practice them in real life until I landed it
This game was right before my adult life. It sparks so many nostalgic teenage emotions
This game is what got me into skateboarding.
Same!
Agreed .
+Sporkinator Same
@RIZKYYY I played THPS2, THPS3 (never finished it), THPS4, THUG, and THUG2... good times... though THUG and THUG2 went a bit overboard with mature content, which did not thrill my parents. :|
@@user-au2296 same here
someone loves their nollieflip underflip
I used to get pissed, for some reason i would accidentally do the Benihana all the time
@@dirtnugget5968 😆
I know this isnt the first Tony Hawk Pro Skater but I remember when i would do so good at the tricks I knew...i would actidentally do a Kickflip to Indy on the ground 😂😂
@whiterthan hitler Im sorry if this is stupid but whats the difference between a vert and street skater?
@@magneticpants3549 vert skaters skate halfpipes and stuff and the other skates street obsticals like curbs and rails
@@arturzawitkowski9035 Oh I see what you mean
I played this game for countless hours and then I watch this video, there are still some of those places I never found!
Once they added Manuals to string combos together in THPS2, the rest was history
Pretty much
The start of all those crazy ass combos started here
@@OHHHHUSBANT 💯
Can't believe I just sat here and watched the whole thing. It was probably the same amount of fun as just doing it myself. Maybe more :D
I was enjoying the nostalgia
is it just me or is this game boring without the music playing?
hittman sanjo Pro Skater soundtracks have always been 10/10
+Ollie Williamson except thps5
+Jatworks_Swirl 🔺 W0t, THPS3 had an amazing soundtrack.
Fabian Garcia Yeah that one is sucky, i was thinking what the hell is this?
+Jatworks_Swirl 🔺 Dude Pro Skater 3 had 96 Quite Bitter Beings. That alone speaks for its self.
The game is so depressing without music....Guerilla radio turn it up all classics
I loved Blood brothers the most. As its really nostalgic and true that we are animals whos nature is violent.
no music made me notice the plethora of sound effects in the game when you grind on X or kick flip over Z, etc.
Need to be without music because of Copyright
No cigar !!!!
May 16 was my favourite
If it had music, the video would have been demonetized for copyright infringement. Dude earned that money with gameplay like that.
A 20 minute long game, hours of fun.
+BlizzGaming You misspelled months.
+legionermk lol
For most of us mere mortals it took a lot longer than ~20 minutes to beat it/100% it, lol.
Deathbrewer yea lol
This game is hard, in comparison with THPS and THPS 3 and you made this looks so easy. Great game
"You can play your silly video games, okay? But only for like half an hour."
"Works for me."
I still remember Christmas morning trying to explain to my dad why I was starting on the third level. I had secret been playing it one run at a time whenever I got the chance.
Whats so insane about this game is that it was programmed by one man, Mick West.
Thanks for the countless hours of fun.
this game felt like a smooth new set of physics rules
My God... it's been ages since these childhood days.
This is - no doubt - one of the most satisfying things to watch!
As soon as you started The Hangar, Blood Brothers by Papa Roach immediately started playing in my head
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2: the best video game ever.
If you had this game on Dreamcast, you knew you had the best graphics.
This took alot of memorizatoin. I mean who the fuck would dislike avideo like this? The video is exactly what the title promised.
Therapist: Rodney isn't here right now, he can't hurt you
Rodney:
my whole childhood completed in 21:57
impressive
Nobody commented on a verified ytuber's comment nice
@@mysanity_islow 🖕
ROSES ARE RED
VIOLETS ARE BLUE
TONY HAWK PRO SKATER 2
+M4RC3L0 011001110 are you Marcelo the soccer player
true
jacksfilms much?
I like it better with the music, don’t you?
It looks like haiku. I know it doesn't fit one, but it still sounds like it were.
This game is so complete it's incredible. I remember playing it at the age 12 on my Windows 98 at home... So many memories. I get emotional by watching this video, and by watching OP finishing 100% and collecting all the tapes and bucks I tried and retried a million times without succeeding...
this is the game that got me into skrateboarding, i was such a naive youngin, i was really mad when i learned you cant just casually roll up on any old street curb and grind it to gain more speed, you gain a lot of road rash and gravel in your hands
Man, I miss my childhood
I played this game so much on Ps1 for years!
Amazing how well this still holds up, one of my top five on dreamcast for sure.
i remember the day i found the skating spot over the wall near the secret tape on level 2. lost my shit
Steak Pie rip Carlsbad
I remember a friend told me about it and I was so excited to try it out.
Nowadays you can Google any game and see every "secret/hidden" thing it kind of ruins it. You don't have to look but the temptations always there.
You can literally fact check people instantaneously and that's kind of weird lol
these sounds increase your dopamin level till you ready to run against a wall with a shopping venture full speed
If only I could skate like that in real life haha. Great job man! Man this brings back memories, it use to be my favorite game.
Man, the rail grinding sound is so satisfying in this game. This game truly is the GOAT.
omg i remember playing this, i love that sound when you make a special trick, damn this brought back memories :D
THPS2 is the second highest rated game on Metacritic, that's crazy. This is a fuckin' classic game.
Anyone here after seeing the 1+2 remaster?
Yea
Yes
Yes Sir
Actually, yes. But I wanted to assure myself if THPS2 for sure has time limit. I've played it only in two... periods. One is childhood (8yo, when the game came out), but never career, second is when I tried on PC. I learned then, that it has time limit. I wished it didn't. I love THPS4, but I hate THPS2 for having one. Will never play the THPS game with time limit.
Maybe if the remaster will get rid of it... But still, the game is super short. THPS4 was way longer. Even considerign speedrun. More challanges to do. Both PSX and PC versions.
It took me months to complete all the game, and this guy made it to simple. Great video
My favorite tony hawk game 4ever.
Thank you for the upload! Talk about nostalgia , you are incredible at this game.
The nostalgiaaaaaaaaa
Oh my god, I have just teared up by so much Nostalgia, I used to completely love this game when I was 5.
Crash Bandicoot and Tony Hawk's was my childhood, mate.
I remember trying out Resident Evil 2 and scared to go back on it. The Dukes Of Hazard and Worlds Scariest Police Chases on PS1 are other classic's for me.
This dude is like the Chuck Norris of gamers...
Barty Crouch Jr. i had a neighbor that could reach all the tasks and items while doin the tricks infact he would get times i dnt knw how much and the ps1 would stop and froze cause the tony hawk game didn have that high fuckd up high score man i swear and each time he did the same for the fuck of it.
Same as this guy then
I had a sudden urge to play this game due to nostalgia. This was sufficient, thank you! Also, very well done.
this is what its like...WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE!!!
+metubeusercom out with the old in with the new 💩
Aaron Unash yeah yeah yeah! XD
Powerman 5000
What made this game so popular (aside from how addictive it was), was that it came out at a perfect time. When skateboarding was just starting to go mainstream.
The was easy, no compare to thwk 4
At first I thought you were going to get all of the School goals in two minutes. That shit would've been rediculous. It's probably impossible.
i think i tried and tried, and getting everything plus all the cash, i just don't know if it can be done :P I think you can get everything but the cash
All school goals is easy. Then do an all cash run
It is definitely possible. I did it several times back then when I was playing this best game of all time.
memories we had this Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 back when we were younger the good old days brings back memories our childhood we played all of them.
I remember this getting me into skateboarding :). I miss those days! Sucks being grown up
you can still skate now..know a few adults who still do it. Dont let society/culture stop you doing stuff you wanna do man
At the school you didn't grind off the top of the golf cart 🤦🏾♂️ anywho, still one THEE greatest games ever made. Definitely getting this again. Nostalgia at its finest 🤘🏾
Honestly I know it gets hate but the tony hawk HD game works for me nowdays
spent my entire childhood playing this game, never got 100% because i didn't know about the hole in one part of the first competition until now. Well, time to dig out my PlayStation and memory card and right a 17 year old wrong.
As a child, I was introduced to so many great bands thanks to this game.
I miss this classic gem. Way better then Tony Hawk 5.
Man the bullring in Mexico felt so damn exclusive when I first played it as a kid .... Time flys !
I fucking thank this game for making me into a hardcore skater, becoming good, eventually trading in the board for a bottle, becoming homeless, then successful, then here I am a pushing 30's male looking back at my past life almost crying of the intentions I had from this game, Thank You Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 for having such a huge impact on my life. SK8ER for life homes.
Brandon Bellegarde glad this game made u a man bro 🤘🤘
Haha definetly man, it was those Rodney Mullen Videos :P
One of my favorite games ever! A good nostalgic moment, thanks for sharing it. And Dreamcast was a good part of my teenage too.
damn, when i was skating (1995/2004 i only have vhs videotapes do learn some tricks, now you have youtube full of videos explaining how yo do it, and this kind of games, i am getting old :(
Can't believe 19 years has passed 😮
I did use the fly cheat back in the day to do 100% on every character in the game including the unlockables, i beat every single session highscores, got all the gaps before youtube was around even in skate heaven (i used text based guides tho like gamefaqs). I built tons of parks and even played all the premade parks and played the Matt hoffman demo. I beat absolutely everything this game had to offer.
zukodude487987 i didn knw that cheat back in the day damn it
kandy I used websites like gamefaqs and game revolution for cheats.
This guy is doing what took me and my brother months to do. Great memories.
I never knew about that secret area. I just...sat there with my jaw dropped for a solid minute.
which one?
Did you know about 'Skate Heaven' too in THPS2? It was a secret level.
Phil ip wtf? I put so many hours into this game. How am I just now hearing about this?
which one bro
another secret room in the schoolyard after the second school bell rings grind the rail and the gym doors open up to a basketball court and a swimming pool
Finally i found someone who prefers the sound of skating then backgroundsongs
I used to play tony hawk just before went to skate when I was a kid :)
This and Goldeneye defined my grammar school/middle school years
The nostalgia! Wicked stuff!
10 anos da postagem estou aqui vendo essa obra de arte nolstagica show!!!!
Games of my childhood: Max Payne, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2.
Those and a million more, lol.
SMF Prymityw age of empires 1?
i believe this is the definition of KILLING IT..used to skate the carlsbad gap at the school for hours lol
kakashi101able in america they say killing it to say "did it very well".
wtf, who plays tony hawk without music
LyonSinCuerdas I do. I watch skateboarding videos on another device while playing for inspiration these days. but back in the day - always sfx+music!
Cause he'll get a copyright strike.
Deaf people.
I do
People who have heard the same songs over and over and over and over while playing.
I’m not hating but this game took me years of my childhood to complete and you’ve finished it in less than half an hour...
My whole childhood is a lie, I've been getting the school2 secret tape the hard way my whole life
Joel Zimmerman Fuck, me too, took me years to get it with stupid wallrides up there, and it seems so easy
I grew up playing 2x on the xbox. Best years of my life.
I played THE SHIT out of this game as a kid. I even have a playlist with the soundtrack to listen when I snowboard (totally sick!)... but at 5:55, I was like "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT????". Never even know about that secret section. Mind = blown.
You didn't wonder where the other money was?
I found the place by accident once because I messed up a grind and faceplanted the thing you have to hit to open the area. As I rose to my feet, the hole opened for me to skate in.
So much nostalgia I love this game takes me back to the good old days and times.
Time to wire up the old ps2 and replay all the old THPS games. God damn these games bring me back to a greater time
this is ps1 game...
John Zoidberg it works and saves on the two as well
Respect for completing the first stage on one session, you a mad guy!
Nollieflip Underflip
*special trick sound effect*
I had no idea some of the money in Bullring was hidden in literal bullcrap. As I was watching you do that, though, I was like, "That is such bull****".
Only a few seconds later had I realized the stellar unintentional pun.
Amazing job, though. I'm currently working on 100%ing the game as Tony Hawk without buying any stats, but I'm starting to believe it to be impossible. The Secret Tape in Venice and Drain the Fountain in Philadelphia are the only two goals I have left, I think, and then as far as money goes I think I am probably about 90% done with it aside from Bullring.
But I believe I will just have to give up on my dream. When I saw even you adding stats to your character, I realized that this dream of mine was perhaps not rooted in reality. I could easily get the Drain the Fountain one with infinite grind on, and grind the wire that has the secret tape on it all the way to the building (I did make it to the secret tape), but part of challenging yourself to something nigh impossible is not using cheats. Kind of takes away the whole purpose of doing it in the first place.
Sorry for the rambling. I have a huge respect for speedrunners and I love this run of yours in particular. I assumed that a good time on a 100% speedrun for this game would require you to do all the goals in every level in a single run, but you make it seem rather impossible to do so. The levels are much bigger in this game than the first one, plus there are two times as many goals.
Great run!
This was one of the best games on PS1, how come i didn't know back then? D: I guess i grew up with Crash Bash, Crash Bandicoot 1 - 3 and Spyro.
Crash Bandicoot and Spyro were the best! Naughty Dog needs to bring back classic Crash and same thing with Activision and Spyro!
bilingualtongue I really wouldn't ask Activision to do ANYTHING these days... Much less bring back our childhood.
I would like them to bring back Vigilante 8.
and Legacy of Kain Soul Reaver and Twisted Metal 4
mentuemhet They did on the XBOX 360 and it sucked compared to the earlier two V8 games-so I've been told and read!
2018 miss those days
When your girlfriend says I just have to do my makeup. Eh. I got time to beat tony hawk pro skater 2.
After launching another video with THPS2 soundtracks its 10/10 :D
Sin duda alguna es el mejor juego que jugué en mi infancia. Recuerdo aquellas veces que se me dificultaba alcanzar diferentes obstáculos :') Espero y tener de vuelta un N64 en mis manos con ese maravilloso juego.
compra un n64 con una unidad everdrive o en mejor caso emúlalo y juega con un control o con teclado. las mejores versiones de este juego son la de Dreamcast y PC. la versión de PC anda en una papa y pesa 600mb.
This is the best looking PS1 game ever made.
Man, you awesomee!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you ! lov u !!!!!!!
this is the game of my childhood
Ohhh the feeling of hitting High score, Pro score and sick score when you land a combo. Ohhh I loved it when i managed to pull that off.
Ollie the magic bum
I’d always forget the order they appeared 🙄
Tony Hawk 1 & 2 soundtracks combine for a spectacular playlist
Really wish I can go back in time
I love how quick the loading screens are 🔥
Unlocking spider man was the shit in this game
What a trip down memory lane. I put a LOT of hours into this game back in the day
sou brasileiro e vc é um absurdo, nunca vi nada igual !
Last I played this I was 8, I can't believe how in depth this game is for the time. It's like really surprisingly solid and well thought out