THIS IS NOT A TORX - Haas Automation Tip of the Day
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ธ.ค. 2021
- This might seem like a simple topic. But as usual Mark finds many interesting and useful details as he examines the differences between Torx and Torx Plus fasteners and wrenches.
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Code: - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
The great thing about standards is that there's so many of them to choose from.
Lol
Good one!
😂😂😂
I lold
Dog, for real though. Sometime in the future there will be somebody just pissed off that for some reason these people are still using Phillips in space instead of super hex plus.
Reminds me of that XCKD comic.
*Situation: There are fourteen competing standards.*
Engineer: "There are too many standards! We should just create *one* that works for all use cases!"
*Situation: There are fifteen competing standards.*
oh the vicious cycles
XKCD 927 in case anyone’s interested
Engineer: "There are too many standards! We should just create one that works for all use cases!"
*Situation: There are sixteen competing standards. *
Team Tri-Wing.........ACTIVATE!! 😆😂🤣
Oh and don't ya just love the "snap-action" on ya fingers from your hex-key, when ya have to break loose a Button-Head cap screw. After 2 or 3 of 'em and grasping your fingers in pain, you'll finally grab your "cheater" to take out the other 17, that some engineer thought a lil 2ft square access panel needed. 😆😂🤣
"The company invented a new system that was even more secure"...
Yeah... for sure. That was the reason. They did this for us, so that we have an easier life. Another 25 year Patent was absolutely not involved in the decision of doing the same thing again, but different.
You need to get out of your conspiracy bubble. I've run the A to B torque to failure testing in a fastener laboratory. Torx Plus has a substantially higher permissible drive torque than a standard Torx. The geometry of how the drive torque force is transmitted through the drive feature is substantially different, there's a lot more material there.
That's why you'll see them being used in low profile or high torque applications. Nissan, Ford and Tesla among others use them in production.
@@otm646 and of course having the patent on that new system for another 25 years had nothing to do with them bothering to develop the improved version. When it boils down to it, its just to sell more stuff !
@@Decrepit_biker Pretty neat how they only last 25 years, huh? forces innovation
or whatever
@@amicloud_yt I have known a company sit on an improvement for 15 years to get to the end of the 25 year period before releasing the update! I know as I used to work for them 🤣
@@otm646 And in none of those the torque limits are even close to reacing,
A Hex-Head or an allen-head are capable of spanning even a 12.9 Screw, so how would being able to transmit more torque be benefitial?
The difference between the two torx heads is minimal in performance.
The reason Automotive manufactuerers use these screws is that the manufacturer holds the patents, therefore is the only producer and therefore can give contracts with billions of screws involved, which in turn makes it impossible for outside manufacturers to join in.
In essence they use patent law to influence the free market and keep their role.
Its funny how you americans that are always about small business and people getting successfull do not see how this is a system that prevents any of you ants tp even be able to talk to your potential customers.
Well I'm no machinist but I do a fair amount of wrenching on my own stuff, and I've never heard of Torx Plus before today. Thanks for the information!
Same. I wonder if it's better than triple square in terms of durability.
Im a mechanic and I own a set. They work slightly better but they still suck.
Ever worked on a Volkswagen? They use a XZN Triple-square head. Its fantastic. Just like a Torx but different.
@@peteraugust5295 It's fantastic until you get rust on it and those tiny sharp points on those screws become dull. Then it's just hell broken loose.
Same
In the 1990s, when I sold Mac Tools I was talking to the oldest mechanic in the Buick dealership. His toolbox looked like something you would see in a home garage and was dwarfed by the huge, newer boxes. I was remarking on how his experience and age did not seem to match with his toolbox and he told me that since he was nearing retirement he only bought what was necessary.
He told me that when he started, there were no Metric, Torx, Allen, etc., or electronics on most American cars, and when he bought that "small" toolbox all the older mechanics told him he would never fill such a big box.
I have an old mechanics setup for British tools. it's two smaller toolboxes with handles (2 layer, removable spanner/socket top layer). He has tools that you see in classic auctions (50s stuff) with 8 different bolt sizes on a single tool.. and a collection of them AND the sockets to go with, extensions and the rest. Then the spanners to top it off. So he had everything he could ever need to work on British cars or stationary Diesel engines, all British standard size. And you could carry it with you in a backpack to the top of a damn mountain if you had to in a war..
And then what happened? Did the other hacks in the shop steal all his tools?
That is what happens the world over
@@godsinbox No. This is a professional shop. The other mechanics used their own.
@@N4CR5 Do you mean you have the tool setup from an old mechanic? Was it bought, or gifted?
What a great comment. There's an old Michael J Fox movie, Doc Hollywood, 1991, where the local mechanic has to work on Doc's Porsche, and says "I always wanted an excuse to buy a set of metric tools". It was a great line.
Mechanic here, thanks for including us in the shout out. I appreciate the info too!
This is the most upbeat presentation of planned obsolescence I've seen outside of an executive board room.
"an updated revision with minor -improvements- _changes_ that was created to secure a new revenue stream for the company" is precisely the definition of planned obsolescence. The old product doesn't have to fail. The new part just has to be incompatible enough to interrupt the legacy market.
Ah, brilliant idea. If the whole JIS vs Philips vs Pozi wasn't confusing enough, let's also make a Torx variant :P
JIS is just pain annoying, almost identical looking to Phillips only way to know for sure seems to be trial and error to see what fits best. Almost ruined my HiFiman headphones using a Phillips driver before realising it was JIS.(only stripped one screw for which I had a spare)
Haha try a 5 sided torx looking bit with a pin in the middle ,I've seen em on engine fuel systems and we used to have to sign out the tool bit from the crib at work.
The package said something about being a security bit that's used in prisons also ,hence the sign out they don't want those bits floating around.
@@MrTheHillfolk apple uses those for all its products. really annoying indeed
@@MrTheHillfolk china will be selling them on ali-express - one dollar!
I'm glad my car engines use reversed torx plus. Can't imagine getting them at torque with a philips or pozidrive
Great. That whole Pozidrive thing is such a great idea that they had to make a lookalike Torx to make sure we all need to wear our readers and drink.
Torx is an excellent system, but they need to quit the endless tweeking or they will kill their standard. The urge to have a patented proprietary system has killed many a good idea. Proprietary is an ancient word that means destined to die young.
IMO it's all about maximising $$$, by making a new type they can sell a licence for it to bring in more money than sticking with old stuff.
@@olivertaylor4779
I think that's what Brian Moore meant by urge to a proprietary.....
that and the fact I keep track of 1 phillips bit, one Robertson bit, and three different torx bits to turn the most common screws I encounter.
Torx is not an excellent system. It's a terrible system. There are too many sizes too close together making the use of the wrong size bit almost inevitable. Also the "doesn't cam out" thing isn't really true as I've had to drill out dozens of stripped torx screws over the years. You know what never has those problems? Robertson. The sizes are distinct enough that you never have the wrong bit, and I've never had one cam out, and never had to drill one.
@@kenbrown2808 Funny, I need 3 phillips bits, 4 Robertsons, and about 20 torx bits. Torx is a disaster for that reason alone.
What will really bake your noodle is finding out how many different “cross” screwdrivers there are.
There's Philips, Posidrive, and JIS that I remember off the top of my head... and curse the inventors out whenever I encounter them because I almost never select the right tool for the right head the first time.
You know what really bakes my noodle?
Finding a flathead screw.
@@dougaltolan3017 - I’ve seen a lot on ships and old engineering. They have flat head nuts, bolts and there’s no thread. Spooky stuff! ;-)
@@dougaltolan3017 Watchmakers use flathead screws for almost everything.
Then again, watchmakers also custom-grind their own screwdrivers for a perfect fit...
@@daveys 🐸
Phillips camming out is actually a "feature". It was developed as a means to prevent over-tightening in the days before driver clutch mechanisms.
And I hate it.
Who don't hate that shit. But it's still easier to work with than flathead screws that are next to impossible to get in right without injuring yourself.
@@ehsnils Switch to Robertson....
@@MaverickBlue42 Fewer contact points means less reliability. I'd rather select XZN.
Philips head screws are great for their intended purpose, there's a reason we still use them today even in a professional setting.
But when they're used on screws that needs more torque applied than its intended for just because "well everyone has a phillips screwdriver" yea that's pretty shit...
@@MaverickBlue42 I would rather stab myself in the eye than use square drive. Torx is better in every way as far as I'm concerned.
This is something that has always blown my mind. How are there so many machinists that don’t know the difference.
Utter disinterest. They're the type of machinist that work on a machine for 10 years and don't know the basic things about their control and what the various buttons on there do - not having picked up the manual and give it a glancing check in all that time.
you use what's on the shadow board or in the drawer. I've been in factories the better part of a decade now and this is news to me
lol! Do you know everything in the machining handbook!
@@dominic6634 lol! This isn’t in the machinery handbook!
YOU don't know, what YOU don't know.
All I'm hearing is: Keep a set of torx drivers, replace any torx plus bolts you encounter with torx bolts
And PRAY TO WHATEVER HIGHER POWER YOU BELIEVE to never encounter one with stud in the middle.
@@lokalnyork Some bit kits have those anti-tamper bits in them in all the sizes.
@@lokalnyork That's called a security screw. Just slip a small flat in beside the centre stud, it'll turn.....
@@lokalnyork You can buy security-torx bits at almost any hardware store.
@@lokalnyork Or just keep a set of security torx instead of normal ones so you don't even need to check.
I was a machinist for 10+ years and didn't know. I knew something was different/weird with torx. Good to finally know. 👍🏼
This is actually insightful information i never looked at and never got from anybody else. Worth a sub, keep up the good work and God bless!
I’ve been a machinist and tool maker for 60 years and have never had any problems with standard Allen wrenches. All these different TORX designs are not only confusing but unnecessary.
I think you'd run into problems with hex heads rounding out more often with hex head screws in this application. Especially with really small insert screws.
@@leesuschrist Not hex heads, hex socket heads.
Agree 100%, you may eventually wear out an allen wrench but rarely wear out a socket head cap screw. Torx head screws cam out all the time.
I recently saw that my friend had a set of TPlus sockets, but I didn't actually read what they were. I thought they were some sort of new "universal" socket. Seems the TH-cam algorithm read my memory and showed me this gem of a video.
This is great, solved a mystery of mine, came across these torx plus screws but had no idea what they were. Thanks so much fo this great video!
Great video as always! I wish more manufactures stepped up with good well edited educational content not just some one minute flashy marketing wank crap that gives zero practical information. Also you should do a follow up about insert screw torque wrenches/drivers. They are a wonderful investment if you are doing any sort of serious production and changing tools a lot.
That is a great topic. We avoided Torque Specs in this one, but we'll be coming back to it. Using a lubricant will completely change our torque values, and just about all tooling manufacturers recommend using a lubricant on our insert screws. I was doing engine block machining, and using ARP studs for the deck plates, and the torque numbers I was given were not for bolts using the ARP Moly/Ultratorque, so when I tightened things up, it immediately ripped the studs right out of the aluminum block, with so much tensile pull. When using a lubricant, we get a much more even torque (less torque scatter), and we end up using lower torque values. On old engine heads, you had one spec if you oiled the bolts, and another if tightened dry.
@@markterryberry4477 спасибо,это было интересно!
As a diesel tech, I can tell you that the torx IP fasteners are way more common than you think. They've been on 15L diesel engines since, at least, the mid 90s.
Jesel valvetrain has used them on their rocker shaft stands. PITA tryin to find one at the dragstrip if u gotta problem.
Been on Subaru's for a good long while too.
Fiat and Alfa engines too. Regardless of the supposed superior torque transfer quite often the recess will be too shallow to get a good purchase,head bolts in particular,anyone remember the early Ford Zetec cam sprocket Torx bolts😂. You see plenty of examples of shallow heads in places where there is more than sufficient room for a decent hex head or a deeper Torx head,FFS! and I've had plenty of EP Torx heads snap off on BMW's leaving a nice sheer bolt style security device too. At least it isn't Allen bolts or that multi spline crap VAG uses.
You said that Torx Plus drivers cannot be used on Torx fasteners, but it stands to reason that it's only true on Internal fasteners, while the opposite is true on External ones. Cool stuff though, I didn't know there were two types!
Awesome video, thanks for sharing!A couple more tips worth mentioning to save alot of time for production shops:
1. Have a tool list posted on each machine. The list should show a description for each tool, next to it type in the torx driver used for the insert screw(s), and adding the insert screw part number is very helpful as well. Side note: we primarily use torque torx drivers, which immediately stopped over tightening when we went to them.
What a great subject! Haas killing it as usual!
I first ran into Torx Plus fasteners on my 2000 and 2002 Astros. GM uses T+ fasteners extensively, to the point that when I find a Torx fastener, I reach for a T+ wrench first. I've found that Ford also uses them for high load applications. My '04 Ranger uses T+ fasteners to attach the box to the frame, and for the door adjustment fasteners.
There's also RBRT Torx tools for the torx screws that have become stripped or wallowed out. They're designed with angled teeth so as to grab the fastener to ensure removal.
Ooh, I learned something new. Thank you
Also, I've noticed if you have a regular torx 15 screw that is worn out that you can sometimes fit the Torx plus in it to get it out.
Heard you can just use an Allen but I've never needed to try it myself
@@wades623 You might get lucky on a certain size or two but it definitely doesn't work all the time.
Despite being in the auto trade for years.... I learned something new today! Thank yiu
Don't matter the new guy gonna still use my T6's on the T7's...
Haha I like this. I think it’s cruel they are so close together
Which illustrates why Torx is such an awful system. There are too many sizes too close together. They should have half (or less) of the sizes they do. Take a look at Robertson, so much better, you never have that problem as it's always obvious which size is right, you only need a few different drivers in your toolbox, and it's more secure and less likely to cam out than a torx too.
Super valuable knowledge and Mark (& cameraman) are great!
Its a huge pet peeve of mine when I come across a rounded insert screw. There's torx and torx plus for a reason folks lol.
Your mention of a tool type that I am mostly ignorant of is going too cause too buy “another tool!”
Thank you very much!
Merry Christmas.
This was very educational! Thank You!
Been owning these for over a decade & half. German car's added these to some fasteners. Then Toyota come's out with a 5 point version, to use on their throttle bodies. Fortunately, Snap-On had them "the week I needed them".
Just grind one off and then you’ll have a 5 point. So simple I can’t believe you didn’t think of it first. 😉
Wow. Torx plus sounds kind of messed up. Sure, they perform better, but they confuse the whole situation, because the are almost (but not actually) compatible.
exact, so we're back to the PH/PZ mess
Yep, and too many idiots strip them out with regular torx bits
@@Sicktrickintuner If you are crawling under a machine in a grimy ass cabinet and need to see the difference between torx and torx plus in a dark hole, while it fits your torx wrench, you suddenly realize what the problem is. Not every screw is in the front panel of a machine. Just last week we cammed out a self tapper screw 7 meters up on a cherry picker in a ridiculous spot because it was pz and seemed to fit ph2.
How do they perform better? Can they put more torque on the fastener? Which bolts would survive that, which ones would just round up due to smaller (therefore much weaker) lobes on the bolt head? Sure, the tool should be stronger than the bolt as it has to put up with thousands of fasteners within its lifetime. But the bits and keys are made of much higher grade of steel than the fasteners. Smaller lobes on the torx key leave space for bigger (and stronger) lobe on the (much softer) bolt head leading to a more balanced strength ratio.
Excellent video, learn something new every day....thank you.
Another useful tips, thank you!
My father did CNC machining when I was really young; largely self-taught to land a job at a friend's shop, super impressive given his lack of mathematical background. Anywho, I was ALWAYS digging through tools and getting into things and would notice super slight variations in the appearance of the Torx drivers: sharper lobes and deeper cuts vs squared-off lobes and much shallower cuts. Thanks to this video, I now know what I noticed since childhood wasn't some weird variation and actually means something. If only I knew this information over the last 20 or so years of driving and working on my own cars. All that digging and digging through the same old tools and many new ones, sometimes wondering why in the hell the key/bit that "fits" is sometimes loose or won't fully seat in the socket, hahaha
I noticed these ones were different. Was wondering what they were called
I ran across 8-point Spider Drive [not double square] the other day. Great design and lots of brute strength!
BMW from 2006 on utilize EP fasteners which are made of aluminum. They are one time use bolts which BMW calls aluminum stretch bolts. The reason for this is due to the amount of magnesium used such as the magnesium block and various other parts to eliminate electromechanical corrosion of fasteners. ie: Iron/ magnesium or aluminum/ iron. 👍Thank you for creating this video and putting information out there.
Good stuff. I almost had to turn away from the philips cam out though. Typically with philips/star/plus/etc. cam out is from the incorrect bit. It's too bad there are 2 dozen sizes and types to choose from but many of us know the right size when we see and feel it.
Until you buy some Chinese tools and screws and with every bit it is either too small or too big. Correct bit or not, the tools have tolerances and feels like a crap shoot 50% of the time. Bought a Blackview smartphone that came with it's own screwdriver for disassembly and it didn't even fit right. . . At least drill bits don't care the type of screw head they encounter.
Cam out on some of the fasteners is not a problem but a design feature to not over-tighten them.
Great Video! Useful info; straight forward presentation. You don't see a lot of that now a days.
Great tip and information, thanks.
Alright, it's time to standardize the standard. Auto manufacturers you are now allowed only 5mm 10mm 15mm and 20mm to assemble an entire car
Got an old air-cooled Beetle. Most of the car can be worked on using a 13mm wrench.
Why does your TORX driver fit loosely in the screw? Because we care more about how much money our fastener manufacturer makes now that their old patent has expired than our clients.
Totally agree. And if you can still in most cases live with torx-torxplus, we have a special torx head for you - with a little pin in the centre. So feel free to buy a new special torx key, with a pinhole in the centre.
@@shoutitallloud a hammer and a small round punch can take care of that little ‘problem’. Can’t get in your way if it’s been broken out 🤷🏼♂️
@@benupde1979 Won't t agrue with this. Nice words to put on slogan))
@@shoutitallloud It's almost as if Security Hex exists which requires you to buy a special hex with a pinhole in the center. How come I don't see you crying about that?
@@svn5994 'cause you are emotionally blind
Thanks for this - Torx plus was a new on to me. As a worker with elecctro-mechanical gear, I also come across 'Bristol Spline' screws, which look superficially like Torx, but are different again.
Spline drive screws were common on IBM electronic accounting machines. Small screws but relatively high torque specification.
Learning all the time. Thank you.
I love when people use abstract design drives just to be different… I love buying extra tools…
I love to cam out.. they’re doing a job, like he said they’re an improvement.
How do you know they are using it “just to be different” rather than actually having a better solution for the application? Sometimes engineers are a little too obsessive about data and performance figures. The scheduling and accounting departments usually have a challenge on their hands in that regard.
And ip torx screws aren’t abstract at all. It’s about 50/50 with holders screws I see with each design. And most (probably all really) ship with a driver.
@@Jspackman That's what the patent system promotes. Their patent ran out so they made an "improvement" that no one really needs.
And there is the Robertson square drive that is used in a lot of wood screw applications or the crown bus external 12 spline dome head screws that they use to keep the little darlings from taking things apart on the way to school.
Good info! The recommendation of adding lubricant to bolts is a slippery slope. It should only be done when you know what your doing and why you are doing it as it can potentially cause failures due to over tightening fasteners. Great info otherwise!
I had no idea there was a Torx Plus! Thank you!
I'm not sure this is the best way to describe/word it but from diagrams I've seen, TorxPlus is especially Ideal for high-load torque especially because the angle of tension is perfectly perpendicular as opposed to the traditional torx being at an angle crossing the line of rotation, more or less. Which doesn't even begin to discuss that construction screw manufacturers typically use the same alloy for both screw and bit to further reduce on density tensions and increase longevity of parts.
I hate how we have so many different types of screw heads. Now they're getting very similar which will mean they're really hard to tell apart. These companies are going to kill the reputation of torx screws by making so many different types.
There's a joker in this deck. Torx itself took advantage of an expired patent. They copied the Bristol fastener from before WW2. They just increased the ridges a bit and made them pointed instead of flat. Old machinists will know them. Still used in specialty gear. I keep full sets on hand to service Bell & Howell gear.
I'd question this provenance. A standard torx is, more-or-less exactly, a fractional-inch hex wrench with grooves ground into each flat - you can make an almost perfect driver by hand with a well dressed bench grinder. I suspect somebody "improved" a hex wrench to hack together torx, then later went back and did some proper ground-up engineering to get torx plus.
According to the relevant Wikipedia article,
"The Bristol (Also named as Gamebit or Bristol spline) screw drive is a fastener with four or six splines, but is not necessarily tamper resistant. The grooves in the wrench are cut by a square-cornered broach, giving a slight undercut to the outer corners of the driver."
That's really not much like a Torx, except being 6-lobed.
I stepped up to Wera pre-set torquing Torx Plus drivers for tightening all my insert screws. I use a light amount of Loctite anti-seize when installing. Haven't had an issue yet. 👍
I learned something new! Thank you.
Today I learned that torx plus exists
That would explain why only one out of the dozens and dozens of Sandvik included drivers would fit that one u-drill at work!
After 30 years I was convinced I had every torx driver known to man. Now, I need another set. This is getting old.
Great topic.
A big problem at the shop where I work.
But somehow people seem to 'forget' this difference and just go for convenience instead. >>> Torx bits for all Torx/Torx Plus screws.
The Torx Plus should have had an extra lobe, or one less.
Very informative video. I’m confused about the comment about lubricating screws. My understanding is that when there is less friction you have to rotate the screw more to get the same torque which can stretch and weaken the screw. This is why I’ve heard that you should not grease wheel bolts. Should the advice in the video be used only for low torque applications?
Great comment. I was talking about this with an engineer friend of mine, and yes, while a lubricant will give us a higher stretch (preload) on the screw, it can cause it to loosen if it is in a high-vibration application (less friction). Our cutting tools are really well designed, and tested over decades, so the inserts are well seated in their pockets, and the screws themselves are often offset to hold the insert again the pocket walls so there is no way for it to move. We'll see this with cylinder head bolts as well, there is vibration but the dowel pins on the heads help keep the head from moving against the block. There are lots of applications where we would not want to use a lubricant, and where a nyloc nut, lock washer, lock-wire, Nord-Lock washer, loctite, or jam nut would be more appropriate. In our case, all of the tooling suppliers recommend using a lubricant on the insert screws, so the lack of friction is baked-into our insert torque specs from the manufacturers. Yes, a lube drastically affects torque specs (needs less torque for same preload), and shouldn't be used unless the manufacturer recommends it.
The comment in the video is correct: with lubrication you need less torque to reach the desired preload... but that means to tighten properly you need to target the right preload, not a specific torque, and so you will use less torque with lubrication.
Yes, never lubricate wheel bolts/nuts, that way the wheel will be seized onto the hub when you get a flat tire 100 miles from everywhere. Makes perfect sense. Been there. Never again.
@@d.e.b.b5788 wheels are rarely if ever seized on hubs by nuts seized to studs, so using an anti-seize lubricant on the studs won't help. Usually when someone can't get the wheel off, they either can't turn the nuts because they were over-torqued, or they can get the nuts off but the wheel is stuck to the hub... so torque properly and consider anti-seize on the hub (rather than the studs).
@@brianb-p6586 lubricate the countersink in the rim and the contact face of the hub, never the threads yeah. Threads are usually fine but the face drag of the 'sink will bind it hard enough to twist a lug wrench shank out of shape
What to do when you find a torx plus screw?
Replace it with a normal torx.
Seriously I wish we had one standard (I guess 2 if you include bolts).... I don't want a dedicated toolbox (that's getting bigger over time) just for various screwdrivers and bits.
And It looks like manufactures don't want you to do any repair or service operations, thus using a whole zoo-park of different bolts, nuts, and sockets..
The problem is that when you include all the unlicensed 'star drive' screws and bits that are everywhere now that the patents have expired, as a practical matter there really isn't a 'normal torx' anymore.
Throw them away and substitute Allen type hex screws and bolts.
@@ellieprice363 Allen? Is it the same as HEX ? They are pure evil (my opinnion)
@@shoutitallloud Why pure evil? The hex is deep and strong and if the wrench fits it will bend or break before the hex socket is damaged.
What's the point of the torx plus design (other than holding another patent)? As tools are made from much higher grade steel than the bolts it makes sense to keep the lobes on the bit smaller to give space for bigger (therefore stronger) lobes on the much softer screw head to get a more balanced strength ratio.
Great video! Nice production and pacing
I've been a machinist for 10 years and I did not know this. I've ran into this problem before can't find the right wrench end up grinding my tools down to try to make them fit better. If anyone can recommend a good brand of torx plus wrenches I would appreciate it.
Купи у HAAS
Force ,или дело техники,хорошие инструменты
Wera are great
Wiha. Wera's handles are hot garbage.
Just more changes to keep the expenses of maintaining items rocketing higher and higher.
Really interesting and useful knowledge, thank you for the video.
Great video and explanation!
I just grab the too big torx key and hammer it in. Boom, I don't need special tools
i understand straight head, Philips head, reed and prince , allen, and torx head, even tamper head screws but there has to be a time to standardize these stupid proprietary screws and let the backyard mechanic do what they need to do in order to repair and maintain their equipment. the right to maintain and repair your equipment should be LAW.
The thing is that most of those screws have specific applications.
Would be nice, don't mind buying a few more sets of tools for" new, upgraded " fasteners, but, as long as the parts and repair info, is made available.
The manufacturers are trying to take that right from you. There is a big fuss from the farmers because Deere is requiring all repairs on their tractors be done by factory techs. The problem for the farmers is that the techs often are not available for weeks. You can imagine what that does to the farmer's planting and harvesting schedule.
@@johncooper4637 Getting little hand tools, and bits for a few dollars, for new designs , is easy. Yea, the John Deere thing is a bit crazy, pretty monopolistic.
@@TheLaXandro Most of these applications can be handled by Robertson screws, and are pretty much standard across the board in Canada unless it's something manufactured in 'Muricah....
Awesome video Mark! I'd love to see something as informative about Philips vs Pozi
Good video but I feel like you need to discuss the Ribe bit as it’s very similar to Torx Plus. Additionally it’s worth noting that some manufacturers label bits TP15, TP20 etc. These aren’t Torx Plus, they’re Torx Pin, ie the fasteners have a protruding centre pin to make them slightly more tamper-proof.
Yes but in the video you see that the p in the plus tools was at the end of the designation not after the t.
@@metamorphicorder still worth being thorough and explaining difference, plus discuss Ribe bits too
Mechanics will have fun when all the new “paralobe” Torx fasteners start hitting the market in 2024+ builds and they have to buy yet another set of Torx keys!
Good info. But why would you lube the fastener, wouldn't that make it more likely to back out if there's vibration?
Most of the torque that we use to tighten s screw is not spent tightening (actually stretching) the screw, but is lost to friction. The lubricant reduces the friction , so we can get the same amount of stretch (preload) in the screw with less force. The lubricant can make a screw more likely to back out on its own, but it doesn’t because it has a good stretch/preload, nice and tight. Really interesting topic.
@@markterryberry4477 отличный ответ.
The screws, and lubrication used with them, on cutting tools have had decades of testing and design improvements to ensure that the inserts have no play (slop), that could be exploited, vibrating the screws loose. The inserts are tightly held, with no wiggle room, against the insert pocket walls, to hold tight against vibrations. I was talking to an engineer, and there are definitely applications where a lubricant might not be advised, and other solutions are more appropriate like Loctite, lock washers, Nyloc nuts, Nord-lock washers, Lock-wire and more. What a terrific topic. For more information, do a search for "self loosening of bolts and nuts". Engineers have spent their entire careers looking at just this concern.
@@markterryberry4477 good info, thanks!
The tool manufacturer recommends it.
Wow good information! Thanks for sharing with us!
This is likely information I'll never use, but thank you. It is very interesting.
Поучительно и прятно смотреть ваш канал, благодарю за уроки.
It drives me nuts that Sandvik no longer supplies a wrench with their tool holders. You spend hundreds of dollars in their products and all the give you is a 1/4 hex bit. You have to pay like 25 dollars for the stupid wrench. Absolutely ridiculous.
I ran CNCs at Caterpillar for 30 years. What they would do at Cat is treat the screws in the tool holders like a high value item. The holders cost hundreds and the screws are a buck apiece, and they stock only 4 or 5 spare screws in the tool crib. Literally one screw at a time in one little ziplock bag. Then somebody orders all 5 screws and hordes them. So when the screw in your holder gets wallowed out and there are zero screws in the crib, you order a whole new holder. 4 or 5 hundred bucks for a new holder to get a new one-dollar screw. When I explain to them that they should demand the screws from suppliers in bulk (this is Caterpillar, they can demand this from tool suppliers) and keep 500 spare screws in the crib for each type of tool so every odd guy who hordes 4 or 5 piddly screws won't clean out the crib and the rest of us won't need to order a new tool just for the screw, they won't listen. And that just makes everybody horde the spare screws even more. When you see the crib has 5 more screws, you snap them up, every man for himself.
There was a Sandvik rep who brought in a new type of inserted drill for us to try. The drill ran a lot better than the Sumitomos we were using, BUT the Sumitomo was a style that employed cutting force to keep the cutting insert locked in place and it would cut properly even if the 2 screws in it were not fully tight. The new Sandvik relied on a single unique screw, and the screw was carrying the force. Having a good tight screw was critical with this new drill body. And sure enough there was only one screw with each drill body and no spares. I told them this was a bad idea. And eventually in a few months the screw got wallowed out and could not be fully tight any longer, the insert got loose, and a bunch of parts got scrapped with O/S holes. And they had an investigation, and I told them "I told you so", and they got mad, and the Sandvik rep took that drill body back.
Excellent Explanation, TKS!!
Never heard of the Torx plus until watching this but the wider drive splines make sense.
videos like this makes me wanna buy torxs plus for no reason
Apparently finding witness marks of using hex drives on torx is also not that rare.
When you need it done....
I have done it by accident but to my defense, i did it with 2 deeps holes that i couldnt get a light in and still look (4-50 screws some 2" 1/2 into the block)
Also, this was in sweden and i thought the part was based on metric.
Guilty 🤚🏼
Guilty as charged. Conversely, I've used slightly oversized Torx drivers on rounded hex screws more times than I'd like to admit. Sometimes that extra bite makes all the difference, especially if you're trying to fix electronics or non-kitchen appliances with supa-soft fasteners. Engineers, mechanics, technicians, technologists, we're a cursed breed with all this madness!
Simple, but not trivial, and clearly explained. 🙂
Thank you for giving the history and other details
So it's RIBBED.
Some are PLUS sized...
And ya gotta use LUBRICANT on it.
Ok.
I run into this with "pozidrive" screws trying to use a regular phillips head.
To me that sounds so dumb. I knew the difference between pozi nd Phillips from maybe 10 years old. But I always use the notion that if you don't know something, it's s simple as that. You dont know and just haven't been taught yet. Until maybe this year I'd never heard of triple squares, spline and ribe and I had no idea about the differences. A spline is a 12 point regular torx, a ribe is effectively a 12 point internal torx plus and a triple square is a 12 point with all corners being 90°, not to be confused with the spline. They all look very similar but using the wrong tool will simply wear the fasteners and you'll have crappy grip. The reason being I'd never really worked on new cars til the last 2 years. I'm sure people who do more complicated jobs than myself are laughing at me.
Not to mention the Reed Prince!
@@georgecroney6168 Problem is, when they look identical, it's hard to figure out what's going on. It's just awful design.
Great info!
Nice. Now i learned something new today
I prefer square drive aka Robertson screws over torx
I prefer Philips over Robertson! Take that Canuck!
To each his own. But I’m from NJ.
The labelling is about as easy to follow as the imperial measuring system. Good job fellas.
yep, it is straight forward. not sure how anybody could not understand it, it really is super simple and easy to understand. the imperial system is also much more user friendly and reliable than the metric system as well. metric is total crap.
@@orion7741 give an example of the metric system being less reliable & the imperial system being more user-friendly.
Imperial measurement.
Inch, Feet , Yard ,Mile , all different multiplication factors to convert each.
Metric
mm, cm , m , km . 1000mm in a meter & a 1000m in 1km.
The maths in Metric system is move the decimal point.
Can you say how many inch are in 3miles , without using a calculator.
But someone using the metric system could convert between there different measurements in seconds without a calculator.
@@robertsomerville5377 The UK metricated when I was in primary school but I for one still know there are 63360 inches per mile. 1 inch per mile or 1:63360 was the ‘standard’ map scale used in the UK prior to 1974, now it’s metric it is 1:50000 or 1cm = 500 metres
@@robertsomerville5377 Had this discussion with my ex father in law several years ago - which ended up with him starting a full blown argument 😂.
The 'easiest' system is the one you know at the end of the day.
However I stand by the fact that if you hypothetically didn't know either the imperial or metric system and learnt them both, you'd find the metric system made more sense 👍.
@@deezelfairy learning something new can revolutionise your life. I completed an apprenticeship as a machinist & never worked with any CNC machines until 30 years later when I owned my own business.
Buying my first CNC mill transformed what I could do & how I could do it. Just because you learned one way , doesn't stop you from learning a new & better way.
This is good information. Learn something new everyday.
I've got a set of torx plus bits in my toolbox. I've not yet used them, but I'm ready for whenever I do encounter torx plus screws 😂
I did a clutch job on my cousin's car, and the flywheel was fastened with torx plus bolts. I ended up having to order new sockets for it since I had never encountered them before.
But now I'm ready for next time!
Awwwhh.. don't worry. Next time they'll put some brand new "GNORX-extra" bolts
Get a welder (a cheap flux core works fine) and just weld the offending bolt to a piece of rod and you don't need to worry about the new idiot bit some "engineer" comes up with.
@@D8W2P4 I know this is bad practice, but I re-used the flywheel bolts.
So mangling them up wasn't an option.
Eu bem que desconfiava que algo de errado não estava certo em alguns parafusos hehehe
Great information to know. I didn't know these existed.
Thanks from Texas HAAS.
At the end of the day, any screw can be turned with the right flathead screwdriver😉
you forgot about liquid wrench!
That would be flat as in hammer face....
I would be funny to watch you untightening a hex head screw with a flat head screwdriver. :D
@@peterkiss1204 angle grinder a slit for the flathead it it
Spax has a different standard for construction screws that combines torx with a small protruding cylinder.
Is this security torx (like the "tamper proof" screws you see in bathroom stalls) or something different?
@@Trent-tr2nx it's Different, the opposite of security torx
@@erikpieh6485 fascinating!
@@erikpieh6485 Is it the one where the cylinder comes from the driver ?
This is great information!!!
Just have to remember it now. Lol!!!
Since I sometimes run into the torx+ and only have the torx bits I just use the same size but rubber band the tip, so far works fair.