it's the veil in their eyes, these absolutes truths can only be seen with spiritual freedom. only Jesus can lift the spiritual veil covering their eyes. it is a waste of time trying to reason with the spiritually blind.
And what lengths have you gone to avoid presenting ANY _evidentiary facts_ that demonstrates your current irrational and unsubstantiated claims to truth? I have the courage to face _any_ truth that comports with reality. And that truth demonstrates to me day after day that any god is simply not a reality.
@@theoskeptomai2535 So then we all get to live according to our own version of justice and boundaries? We are just clay accidents so what difference does it make if there is no loving Father?
Yes, the man in the orange shirt is trying so hard to justify relative morality. He blatantly ignores the examples of how societies can create terrible laws and acts against humans. He cannot understand the simplicity of truth and innate value. He wants to be a god, rather than seek and know God.
I am convinced that Cliff contorts his body during his explanations in such a manner that people can’t take their attention away even if they wanted to. So animated and passionate.
Yes!!! I agree. You should see him preach. He does the same thing in person. It’s like you can see him working it out in his head by his mannerisms and movements, which I think really helps listeners get it too
Cliffe just repeats the same falacious arguments that have been long debunked. A moral framework is subjective regardless of whether it's theistic or secular *ANY* and *EVERY* theistic derived set of beliefs would be subjective. The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@Chris P Cliffe just repeats the same falacious arguments that have been long debunked. A moral framework is subjective regardless of whether it's theistic or secular *ANY* and *EVERY* theistic derived set of beliefs would be subjective. The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@Chris P Cliffe just repeats the same falacious arguments that have been long debunked. A moral framework is subjective regardless of whether it's theistic or secular *ANY* and *EVERY* theistic derived set of beliefs would be subjective. The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
Cliffe and his son are legends. Yea Its a point that cannot be refuted which is why the person that disagrees with it just goes in circles, gets offended etc..
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 If we are nothing but clay accidents, then what are you so worried about? Who cares what Cliffs says, or the atheists. We’re just meaningless temporary biological accidents.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 Why is dehumanising people 'bad' and 'disgusting'? Who says that? You? Who tf are you to tell other what is 'bad', 'disgusting' and what isnt?
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 No! Since you clearly are a denier of God, where do you get of using words such 'bad' and 'disgusting' to describe any human behaviour? Who says certain things are 'bad'? You? Society? Who's definition of so called 'goodness' and 'bad' are you using?
Umm no. The Father of Jesus is the only God. Jesus said, "My Father in heaven", and He also said, "My Father in Me". It's the Father in Jesus that makes Jesus God. The Father is in us too BUT WE ARE NOT GODS. We were created by God. Jesus was God appearing as a man on earth. He was God but He lived as a Man.
@@berane8909 Gee Bane, that's a lot of assertions. Do you have any evidence to back that up? How do we know what Jesus said. And, how do we know if it is true?
"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ," 2 Corinthians 10:4-5 GOD bless you more grace and peace from GOD the Father and our LORD Jesus Christ brother Cliffe and dem boyz of yours. See you in heaven brother. 🔥☝️🙏❤️
The reason the video cut out there was probably because Cliffe and Stuart had their arguments destroyed by him. If their best arguments are all strawmanning arguments their position is extremely weak.
I don't think so at all, he made some great points. I would rather non believers battle it out respectfully rather than saying yes blindly to everything, without thinking or any questioning.
@Our Savior Correct. I have come to conclude that the god of Christianity is not a reality. What does my conclusion have to do with the question I have addressed to _Larz Man?_
Religion has humanized God, that is why they believe such erroneous things. God is not a human where he would say Salvation is only in Jesus Christ or you go to Hell. That is not love or compassion. Organized religion is about the behavior of humanity and informs us little about the Creator
God bless you Cliffe for talking to walls(atheist) again. Your patience is amazing. The mental gymnastics and illogical circles that they put you through.
Right. Cliffe has had to explain this so many times I feel like people just don't care Cliffe makes a point. If you dont agree with it fine move dont keep saying the same.
@@robertmitchell8438 Hi Robert. No I haven't seen this video. But I will do so right after dinner. Thanks for the recommendation. Will respond back soon. Peace.
@@robertmitchell8438 I just now finished the video. And my first response is WOW. I knew some of the information such as the various gods represented by the movements of the Sun, depictions of a virgin birth, birth during the winter solstice, reference to a resurrection, but not with the detail, clarity, and overall insight that this video provided. It is too bad that every Christian doesn't watch this video.
2 + 2 only = 4 when we work in base 10, it's us humans that make the rules dear and the same applies to the man made concept of morality. A moral framework is subjective regardless of whether it's theistic or secular *ANY* and *EVERY* theistic derived set of beliefs would be subjective. The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@@trumpbellend6717 are you absolutely correct about that dear or is that statement you made correct just once in a while? Or maybe it’s correct for you but not for me. Not my truth, and all that. Maybe you just have to respect my correct opinion that is diverse from yours.
Lol mathematics is a "concept" dear, so it is only when working within an agreed upon arbitrarily predetermined framework ( ie which base we are using ) that one can make Objective statements. Absent this framework such statements are subjective BY DEFINITION. Please tell me precisely WHY do you think human reference standards must be "Objective" and "God given" in order to function and serve their purpose ??? Let me give you an analogy, perhaps then you will understand. Our metric reference standards for weights, distance ( kilometers, meters, centimetres ect ) was originaly a man made concept, arbitrary with no divine dictate involved. Yet once it becomes accepted and a consensus reached it functions perfectly. A "meter" is not some vague "about this big" concept that varies dependant on culture or God. We can OBJECTIVELY measure things within our metric reference framework 😜 Precisely the same applies to our moral reference standard, it too requires only an agreed upon reference standard in order to function. Can you think of a better standard to aspire and adhere to than one based upon human well-being, empathy , equality and respect ??? Do you really think it preferable to base it upon the knowledge, moral values and ideologies of Iron age people that believe it moral to .. *"Buy your slaves from the heathen nations that surround you"* That a raped girl should be stoned to death for not screaming loud enough along with unruly rebellious children who disobey their parents ( sounds like most teenagers to me ) and the people who gather sticks on the wrong day of the week ?? Crusades, holy wars, inquisitions, forced conversions of indigenous peoples, crashing planes into towers, ect ect all done specifically for religious reasons. By people striving to attain their subjective Gods "moral perfection" and citing the moral imperfection of the victims as justification 🤮🤮🤮
@@robmc120 How bout you people stop making up your own definitions.? Evidence does not include fables. You people are like adults with the brains of infants.
I find myself talking like cliff nowadays, it’s good the more you watch the more my faith is challenged and the more I’m intellectually honest to seek truth but I’m confident that I’ve found truth no one else other than Jesus Christ.
The point that comes out in this conversation with the fellow in the orange shirt is this. As an atheist, the closest to objective morals he can come to is to stop saying doing something IS wrong and instead saying he objectively knows that something FEELS wrong at the moment. Or the atheist could say doing something is objectively RISKY at the moment even if it feels fine.
@@alexandrumicu3357 that's when most would default to focus on it feeling wrong at that moment. They can objectively know that it does feel wrong, but what good is that? I ask: don't atheists come away from watching horror movies like Saw and realize they would hurt or kill anyone under certain conditions.
@@jeffreyontheway Maybe you knew that ,, homeless" is a liar and tricks people every day to give him money with his pockets full of them. Not only that you do some sort of justice (not really), but you take all of his money to increase your survival rate bacause of financial problems. Would that be right? If not, why not? Because he clearly doesn't have good intentions.
And even if he claims he objectively knows something feels wrong, he is still left with the question of why it feels wrong. He cannot escape the truth that we were given a moral compass. And it is not a compass for survival. It is to love others in the way our Heavenly Father loves. If we are just clay accidents why would we not just do as we please, if we truly know that we are just physical beings with know spiritual value.
@@christoffesedao3579 Why does my inner moral compass know it's wrong for a supposed all loving being to command the slaughter of women and children of other nations?
"Cliffe, I think you should get a portable comfortable chair to get in, and sit or stand to be more comfortable when you are doing your debating and witnessing"! "You are a great debater and child of "Our Lord", and I think it would benefit you, but I understand why you are doing what you're doing! "I so love the way you witness to the people, and for our Lord! God bless you Dr. Cliffe! With love and 🙏's.
Good job I preach on the street and I like to pick up tips on how to handle different conversations pray for all those colledge kids even the ones just walking by and not stopping pray that they will get saved with jesus
Cliff..you were definitely made for what you do. Very passionate about educating and clarifying Gods word to educated yet spiritually blinded people. I LOVE the “power stances” and the pacing. Physically shows how engaged you are.
I usually like Cliffe's video but at 12:45 you can see the frustration on his face when the young man is still not understanding what he's arguing. Here I can't blame the young man for not understanding his argument I can only blame Cliffe for not explaining his argument more clearly. What Cliff is talking about is ontology not epistemology. Epistemology is the theory of knowledge, how we come to know something. Ontology is the nature of being why things are the way they are. What Cliff is arguing is that you can certainly know some things are right and wrong and not believe in God. But that doesn't mean that your foundation for why you believe X is right or wrong is validated. Cliff is saying that while our foundation to know what is right and wrong can be the same and be validated are foundations for why we believe they are right and wrong is not the same. That's why Cliff says that it's impossible to live out moral relativism because the foundation for why any atheist believes that x is right or wrong is not a logically sustainable foundation. How you came to know why it was right or wrong is validated but your foundation for why you believe it is that way is not logically sustainable. That's what Cliff is trying to argue and I must admit he's doing a very poor job at explaining it. This is why I think people like Cliff need to get into a lot more apologetic argumentation rather than arguing strictly from the side of a pastor. It would greatly benefit his ministry a lot more by educating himself on the actual arguments that are phrased by different apologists today.
Good sign that the Holy Spirit is striving with men against the growing tides of unbelief in the last days ; sowing the seed while God can still be found. Indeed you are privileged to be chosen for this generation to carry on the banner of Christ, “GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF MEN” There is NO OTHER WAY for he is the only living God / Creator that has all the power and glory to give immortality and eternal life by RESURRECTION. There’s NOTHING else in any religious traditions of the world far greater than this, who offers this free gift of salvation and exaltation. Hallelujah, Glory to God in the name of his only Begotten Son ,Yeshua
There are many people in India who claim to be God, but none of them have the right to claim to be God. The perfect example of the word God is only Jesus Christ
@Our Savior I do care. And in what manner am I a 'troll'? Please define what you mean by the term 'troll' and provide an example of how I explify such.
Praise God for you Cliffe, none of them can articulate a valid argument, because it's all foolish. It's outstanding how one can try anything to deny their own creator, pathetic.
Him as a Pastor I wish he wouldn't call people good when he knows no one is if they don't have Christ. Mark 10:18 "“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good-except God alone"
Most of these college age adults are probably dealing with the same issues I had when I was in college with respect to Jesus/religion I justified why i religion was wrong in so many ways.and it came down to choosing my most basic desires/instincts what's my ego was telling me what's correct.Rather, than committing to awill to live that selfless type of a life..I used an immature finite wisdom. Now, As a little older person I can look back in retrospect with honesty why I wasn't willing to live a holier or selfless lifestyle back then.
Thank you cliff and Stuart really like you content and logic. If ever you have a written book i would like to buy one and have more of the knowledge. Also love your website. Keep up the good work brothers
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 what are you talking about. Is it the first time you hear their content because went to almost all their video and there's no such thing. Maybe try to really get the message and not construct a wrong interpretation.
You got it all wrong friend. He is challenging the belief not promoting this. He said it time and time again: if you are consistent with what you believe... He's challenging and make people think about what would having that belief (for survival) would imply. And again challenging the belief to see if it's consistent with how people live their lives
It astounds me how people continue to try to resist Gods existence by finding arguments that are essentially clutching at straws in an attempt to justify their own lifestyle
I think these 2 speakers should be making a difference between legal ethical and moral laws. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with them, but I think there was some things to be added to emphasize objective ethics and morals. What these students are trying to say are that ethical laws are objective such as natural rights and natural law, but they view morality as subjective in the sense that so long you don't hurt others, morality is relative. Im Christian and for a long time despite still being Christian, I believed that natural law and natural rights are objective whether or not God exists, because of Argumentation Ethics (Look it up there's a 2 minute video on it by "RussianCapitalist" to prove the objectivity of natural law through apriori truths people presuppose through argumentation). But recently after thinking more on why God is NECESSARY than why He exists, it came to me that whether or not you can prove natural law through apriori/presupposed truths, it ultimately means nothing if God does not exist. Sure, I could prove that things like murder, theft, and depriving someone of their liberty is contradictory against the natural rights you presuppose through argumentation (or mere existence for that matter whether or not someone has the ability to argue). But why should I care to follow ethical laws just because I see the fact that it would be contradictory to act otherwise? What ultimately matters is God, to bring true purpose into life and purpose as to why we should care about being intellectually honest and ethically consistent with natural law and His word (the morals we follow). We can still prove to other Christians and those who are willing to reason, that objective legal ethics exist through argumentation ethics, and to be consistent with those legal ethics is to be a Voluntarist Libertarian at the bare minimum. As for morality, we can point to the sciences behind why acting morally is healthy for a person, but again what ultimately makes it matter, is if those morals are ordained by God
God is not needed for morals, he is only needed if you want to justify inmoral actions, for which he is quite usefull. We can explain morality easily without any god and we can also determine a working moral system without god. The moral systems we got this way are btw superior to the ones proposed by most religious types, cause they are more effectice in maximise wellbeing in minimise harm.
My faith has found a resting place, Not in device nor creed; I trust the Ever-living One, His wounds for me shall plead. I need no other argument, I need no other plea; It is enough that Jesus died, And that He died for me. 2 Enough for me that Jesus saves, This ends my fear and doubt; A sinful soul I come to Him, He’ll never cast me out. 3 My heart is leaning on the Word, The written Word of God, Salvation by my Savior’s name, Salvation through His blood.
Because he knows he's wrong. That's usually what happens when someone is losing an argument or a debate. And that stems from pride more interested in being right than actually learning and having their beliefs tested to see if they're correct. One thing I wish Cliff would do is keep these kids from sidestepping or ignoring the questions he asked them back. They love to move the goal post whenever their argument gets ripped apart.
All these atheist do is jump around from topic to topic. They present one question, get disproven, then jump to another topic, get disproven and then jump to another topic. And it goes on and on and on and on. Until eventually they talk you in circles back to the exact same point you were making. They are so confused
Cliffe does a terrible job grasping some of the arguments his interlocutors put forward. He totally misses the significance of what they say and even comes off as a sociopath in the process.
Let's discuss any topic that concerns you about the position of atheism, Eagle Eye. I will answer each and every question you have about my position in a direct manner - and YOU can choose to stay with or change any topic. If you do not respond, I will assume that you were disingenuous in your original comment.
@@eaglei0n Conversations by their very nature move to different topics, sometimes people will use a different topic to make a point, Cliffe does this all the time, thats not a criticism, just an observation. Absolutely you don't know me, do you know the ones whom you've seen HIM debate?
Some people just love their sin, and they try to find every angle to ignore the truth to the point of having an elementary point. I think they know the truth though.. They just want to be their own God. Keep up the great work Cliff/and Son. I love it.
There is no such thing as SIN only moral and immoral actions. The percieved whims of anyone's subjective imaginary friend are irrelevant in any discussion of morality dear 😉
knowing the famous honesty of apologists, the guy in the grey shirts was about making some very good points, and they decided to cut out beforehand, so that their theist fanbase does not get force to think about arguments. I mean, we can't have that, can we?
@@jessebryant9233 you don't need much. It is enough to say, that our morals can be easily explained by our evolution as a social species. Therefore we have empathy for each other (something you can even see in the animal kingdom as well). Couple that we rules made by society, which are also necessary for this society to survive and you have a perfectly working explenation for morals without needing a god. Of course evolution does not provide you with morals as it is, but it explains, why we are morals. The morals themself arise from other factors, none of them supernatural btw. You could now say, that those morals are subjective and would be correct, cause there is zero indications for the existence of objective morality. Actually like always when theist try to explain reality through their god, they create more problems, then they solve. And a final fun fact. If you want to surpress the desribed empathy and bring humans to commit crimes against other humans, god is way more usefull, then we you want them just to be good to each other. So if I would be after a gotcha I could say, that god is not needed to justify moral behaviour, but he is very usefull to justify inmoral bevahiour.
Of course there is way more. You point to the fact, that morals are chancing all the time and are still different today, depending on the society you are living in etc. So many points. There is simple too much wrong with the moral argument to just answer it just like that. There is always a flaw, you might have overlooked.
@@TgfkaTrichter Easily explained? Okay, do it... And, fun fact! What you just posted reveals only that morality is not a real thing and that your philosophical conclusion doesn't follow from your naturalistic premise. As for evidence FOR objective morals, well YOU provide such evidence, because you aren't actually saying that we should not do as we please because it lessens the likelihood of our own (or our species) continued yet pointless and ultimately meaningless existence, but because (for reasons you cannot explain) you believe various acts are actually WRONG, not just unfavorable. Trichter, pragmatism ≠ morality.
Asking if a moral system is moral is gibberish. Relative morality itself can't be moral, it's a way to determine what is moral. The question should be "is morality relative"? Well what would we expect to see if morality was relative? We would expect moral principles to be culturally and subjectively dependent, which is exactly what we see.
@@spacecoastz4026 you're right, my bad. I appreciate the long response, I put it off because I didn't have time to read it and forgot to come back to it. I'll reply later
Murder is merely a term created by society to describe the unlawful killing of another human being. Killing is neither right nor wrong. Morals are relative. If there were no people in the world to care about morals, then morals would not exist. We're just like animals. The only difference is us humans tend to think of ourselves as "better" than animals merely because we're able to articulate our feelings into words. There is no 'better' or 'worse' or 'should' or 'shouldn't' in the realm of objectivity. Animals are just as sentient as humans are in that they can feel emotions and care for other animals and people. However, they still kill. The death of a human is no more tragic than the death of an animal. We merely consider it more tragic because of the bias that humans consider themselves as superior. Another thing we can look at is how we even call things artificial when we create them, as if we're not from nature ourselves. Technology comes from humans and humans come from nature, therefor technology is a product of nature. There is nothing unnatural about humans or their creations. We. Are. Animals. Things like morals, laws, justice, and all that other jazz? Entirely subjective. There is no universal moral that everyone can agree on. Even the golden rule of "treat others how you wish to be treated" can be thrown out the window when you take masochistic sadists into consideration. Surveys and statistics prove nothing. The majority can agree with anything but that will never turn opinions into facts. Value, love, hate, importance, etc. It's all in the eye of the beholder and there's nothing you can do to change that. Even assuming God exists, he's merely passing his subjective judgement onto humans and claiming it to be righteous merely because he considers himself superior due to having created the universe but creating the universe doesn't make your opinions objective. It just means you hold all the power. There is nothing here you can refute, try as you might. Morals are biased and relative to culture and empathy varies between individuals as well. Sure, I have my own morals too but I'm not going to get all egotistical and claim that I know what's truly right or wrong. My morals are just as subjective as anyone else's. No one and I mean NO ONE knows what's truly right or wrong. As far as objectivity is concerned, right and wrong are entirely fluid subjective constructs. If there really is a list of truly objective morals somewhere out there, we humans will never know if it's factual or not. EVER.
@@teodormarciuc9166 BELIEF is NOT *"CHOICE"* or a mere act of volition. Sure someone can pretend to believe anything but the things one actually believe are not something you choose they are an involuntary response to one's level of information and understanding of their environment. You are either convinced or you are unconvinced and its EVIDENCE that convinces. I could not just make myself believe in pixies no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Anymore than you could right now "choose" to be convinced that God is not real or that the laws of gravity don't apply to you if you step off that cliff. Tell me could you genuinely "choose" to believe the internet does not exist and we are not having this discourse now ?? I'm talking about being CONVINCED of it bud not just pretending!! Give me an honest answer , could you right now "Choose" to believe in Thor or Zeus ??? 🤔 No of course not, for exactly the same reason I can't choose to believe in Yahweh. Now if I recieved some irrefutable knowledge or evidence then I would have to deny my own reasoning and senses. That what changes beliefs, not "choice" If you came home and found your spouse in bed with the neighbour, could you just "CHOOSE" to believe in her fidelity and go back downstairs to make her a nice cup of tea ?? 🤣😅🤣
Why is even "cosmic accident" so bad? Even if it were, it wouldn't make life "therefore valueless". In fact, it makes life that much more valuable! Using the word "relative" isn't exactly the correct word. Especially when you twist it into "therefore do whatever you want". There are things humans have set up...ways of life...codes of conduct. Why? Because over time, it has been realized that certain ways of life...certain actions...are required for a healthy environment. Does this always happen? No, of course not. Why? Because the human race is still desperately adolescent in so many areas of thought. But the goal, though unattainable, is still valid. But for most people, it is understood that some things cannot be condoned for a healthy society. We can't have random violence. Random murder. Random theft. Etc. It doesn't matter if "some random person decides it's okay to kill his neighbor". That's the point Cliffe is missing...and it is due to his attempt to insist that "his god" is the "moral standard that has to be followed". The Biblical "god" is not the source for "objective morality", even if it existed because just because the "most powerful entity says some certain way is the only way to act", it doesn't make it "objectively moral". Just "an edict". It doesn't make it "moral" at all....and in many cases, could even be demonstrated to actually be immoral. It's just that so many have been conditioned to not see what's right in the open for all to see. BTW, I've not seen Cliffe comport himself as arrogantly, in the way he spoke to the students, than I have in this video. Not the whole video, but in places, I was amazed at how condescending he was. The way he said "buddy" was quite condescending.
If it's true there is no God, then being a "cosmic accident" isn't good or bad. It just is. And we have to face that fact. We're no more valuable than the space dust we're made of. How does that make life more valuable? If morality is relative, why can't you do whatever you want? What if you don't care about a healthy society? Why is that morally wrong? What is your standard of morality?
@@Malhaloc _We_ give ourselves value. That's the difference. Star dust can't do that. As I stated above, for a healthy society to exist, people have to comport themselves in a specific way, else there is chaos. And chaos is extremely problematic and dangerous. Hence,...laws to keep people in check. If a random person wants to violate the autonomy of another person [do whatever they want], that doesn't make them right...and will place them in prison for their actions. Why is a healthy society something to care about?? I've heard apologists ask this question many times,....and I'm honestly dumbfounded that it is asked!! The answer should be plainly obvious. My standard of morality? For what topic? If general,....it is wrong to murder, steal from people, rape people, do things that harm others,......and also,....to be good to others. Help those in need. Treat people with respect.
@@DRayL_ "We give ourselves value. That's the difference. Star dust can't do that." And if it could, would that make it valuable? If I say I'm the greatest person on earth, does that make it so, just because I believe it? "As I stated above, for a healthy society to exist, people have to comport themselves in a specific way, else there is chaos. And chaos is extremely problematic and dangerous. Hence,...laws to keep people in check. If a random person wants to violate the autonomy of another person [do whatever they want], that doesn't make them right...and will place them in prison for their actions." I understand what you said. I was asking why a person is wrong if they don't care about building a healthy society. If morality is relative and I have kids that need food and education, or I just want to take more vacations, why shouldn't I steal from you to make that happen? "Why is a healthy society something to care about?? I've heard apologists ask this question many times,....and I'm honestly dumbfounded that it is asked!! The answer should be plainly obvious." To someone who sees living for a healthy society as the ultimate moral good, sure. But remember, morality is relative, not objective, right? So living for a healthy society is not objectively good. It's relatively good. And harming that healthy society is not objectively wrong. It's relatively wrong. To the person doing it, it's relatively good. You also have to ask which society we're talking about. To American society, you and I are really good people. To Iranian, Chinese, Russian, and North Korean society, we're the scum of the earth. Who's right? "My standard of morality? For what topic? If general,....it is wrong to murder, steal from people, rape people, do things that harm others,......and also,....to be good to others. Help those in need. Treat people with respect." That's your morality. By what standard do you say those things are moral? What's your measuring rod for morality? How do you determine what is moral or immoral? You've said it a few times in your response, "A healthy society", but that only begs the question, which society? The prosperity of American society means the enemies of America suffer. Why is it good that American society is healthy if other humans, specifically, the ones who want us dead, are unhappy? Doesn't that seem immoral to prosper at the detriment to others?
@@Malhaloc "And if it could, would that make it valuable? If I say I'm the greatest person on earth, does that make it so, just because I believe it?" I honestly don't get the questions, as it related to my comment. Star dust can't. And no, what an individual believes doesn't make it "therefore true". "I understand what you said. I was asking why a person is wrong if they don't care about building a healthy society. If morality is relative and I have kids that need food and education, or I just want to take more vacations, why shouldn't I steal from you to make that happen?" For a society to work, it requires people behave to that cultures set standards. It doesn't matter what the individual wants. That's the point. "To someone who sees living for a healthy society as the ultimate moral good, sure. But remember, morality is relative, not objective, right? You also have to ask which society we're talking about. To American society, you and I are really good people. To Iranian, Chinese, Russian, and North Korean society, we're the scum of the earth. Who's right?" Often times we cannot know the "why" a culture is as it is. We, in America, see ours as a good culture...and it has some good characteristics. But it has some that aren't. Are we "right", as a culture, when we idolize sports ball players? When we talk about "achieving the American dream", which often leads to more and more selfishness? Who is "right" is very much subjective. And even when you through in religion,....the "god moral standard" isn't really purely objective...but the subjective characteristics people have granted it. "That's your morality. By what standard do you say those things are moral?" Again,...this is the problem...and the absurdity often brandished by apologists like Turek or Cliffe. We know why the things I mentioned are good for people to strive towards. Turek and Cliffe try to bully their religious belief into the topic, claiming "only a god can provide",......but it just is irrelevant banter. There hasn't been any credible or verifiable evidence of any "deity",....so the notion of "what a deity commands" is irrelevant. Religions books made claims,...but those were the beliefs of those ancient people.
"I honestly don't get the questions, as it related to my comment. Star dust can't. And no, what an individual believes doesn't make it "therefore true"." That's the point. Just because you say "I have value. I have value. I give myself value." Doesn't mean you're valuable. "For a society to work, it requires people behave to that cultures set standards. It doesn't matter what the individual wants. That's the point." Again, you're assuming that having a healthy society that works is an objective moral good. Why is it wrong for people to disagree? What makes them wrong and you right? Often times we cannot know the "why" a culture is as it is. We, in America, see ours as a good culture...and it has some good characteristics. But it has some that aren't. Are we "right", as a culture, when we idolize sports ball players? When we talk about "achieving the American dream", which often leads to more and more selfishness? Who is "right" is very much subjective. And even when you through in religion,....the "god moral standard" isn't really purely objective...but the subjective characteristics people have granted it. Exactly. So everyone has their idea of what's right or wrong, there's no moral objective, meaning no one's opinion of morality is any more correct than another's. That's exactly the point. If there is no God, there is no mind higher than the human mind, therefore it is up to the human mind to determine morality. It's just an opinion. Just a taste. Do you like murder or charity? Do you like beans or broccoli? "We know why the things I mentioned are good for people to strive towards." Then why do you get so angry and defensive and start throwing insults when I ask you to explain why? If you know, then answer my question. As much as you don't like Cliffe or Frank, one thing you never see them do is insult people because they ask a question. Especially if they're able to answer it. That particular move seems to be reserved exclusively for atheists. @@DRayL_
Only the holy Spirit can chsnge a person's heart When thst person opens their heart on their own free will God uses cliffe tho to plant seeds and do Gods work thru him by giving an account for people of the truth.
Humans live in groups, and like all social animals we've evolved a system of cooperation that makes group-living possible. We call our system morality. No supernatural agent is required.
So are you claiming that genocide is moral? Because many “systems” have been created by societies and agreed upon that involve genocide and other atrocities. Are you saying that as long as a group of humans agree upon something, then whatever they do is moral?
@@christoffesedao3579 So, are YOU claiming genocide is moral if it is commanded by a sky daddy?: I Samual 15:3 - Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. Deuteronomy 20:16-17 - However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the Lord your God has commanded you.
We are the same thing we are creating. A computer need a program for everything; Calculator, search engine, Calendar, face recondition, volume, without any of does this we will not be able to used them in the computer. So foe the same reason we have felling, desire, judgment, reasoning, ideas, anger, Jealousy. Every one of does is a program install by a designer.
This topic for some reason comes up a lot. Objective vs Relative Morality. Scenario: Two brothers can't get into an agreement what's right and wrong. The father chimed in and explained what is right and wrong and settled the argument. That's what God and Jesus does.
God's feefees are objective. Your feefees are subjective. You are worthless unless god thinks you have worth. You have to be told what to think because you're wrong. But god loves you... This is a trick to break you down before offering an outlet to false love. Welcome to the cult...err... Church. Please donate.
@@saintpaulofyoutube4416 some people can read between the lines and some people have their head too far up their own butts to see anything. One day maybe you can come out for air.
@@korpse6rinder hmmm maybe you're right. I'll try to read between the lines like you. So you're saying that atheism is just an excuse for sodomy? Hey, you're right, this IS fun.
"You have to be told what to think because you're wrong"? Dude, what are you going on about? All you trolls seem to be getting ever more desperate, most likely because your worldview... is wrong.
The ultimate moral foundation is subjective. Why is that? Because no one really knows if this god of the bible actually exists. It’s just some people’s subjective opinion that he does, and all the consequences of a subjective opinion must logically also be subjective. But even if this god were shown to actually exist, morality would be based on this god's subjective whims. God can change his mind and he can do whatever he wants. So, any way you look at it, morality is subjective.
"Because no one really knows if this god of the bible actually exists." Except the objective fact that Jesus existed, verified by biased (Christians) & unbiased (Jewish/Roman/Atheist Historians); The man who prophesied His own death & rise from the dead when we still cant find the body despite having most other leaders, who claimed to be _the_ way/truth/life (John 14:6) like no other religious leader did, who is arguably more inspirational than any other person that ever lived (more music/art/writings/copies than any other). "It’s just some people’s subjective opinion that he does" It's also the most reasonable conclusion for the reality we live in, i havent heard/seen any refutation to the contrary of a more cohesive worldview, see J Warner Wallace's Cold Case Christianity channel to break it down. "But even if this god were shown to actually exist, morality would be based on this god's subjective whims" God is unchanging, so He has no "whims" in His omniscience of what's best for His glory, His ultimate objective, not our happiness. That's still transcendent of our subjective, limited knowledge, fallible opinion. "Yep… actually, I am more moral than this god character." In our limited, subjective, fallible minds, how is our opinion better? What are you using as your moral foundation as better than an omniscient God? Sounds more prideful that you're more moral, you may be worshiping yourself as the transcendent standard.... “Gee, it depends on who is responsible for this dead baby in order to determine if it is an evil act or not.” God didn't create a flawed world, He created a perfect world we corrupted by sin (Genesis 3). What foundation for objective morality are you using without God? "If I came across a grown man raping a 9-year-old girl, without hesitation, I would do anything in my power to stop it right there and then." Because you have a sense of worth in humans, where do you get that from? I can explain God gave us a conscience, you are left with "it's forwarding the genetics of that man, it's not ultimately wrong, it may be right in fact". You can claim moral superiority all you want, but where does it stem from objectively? "But what does your god do? Well, he just closes the door and tells the rapist, “Go ahead and finish, I’ll punish you later” You start with the assumption the girl is morally sin free, Romans 3:23="All have sinned & fall short of God's standard", so even the girl goes to hell ultimately without Jesus who paid for both the rapist & the girl. God is patient with _both_ of them to repent in the fallen world they are a part of, the situation is wrong but you dont have a foundation for telling me its wrong besides your subjective, fallible opinion, i'd love to hear one cohesive with your worldview. May God show Himself to you in spirit & truth, God bless!
@@robmc120 It is not an objective fact that this Jesus existed. And even if he did, there is no reason to believe he was divine. Who are all these eyewitnesses? Where are their writings? Being more inspirational is meaningless when it comes to what is actually true. By the way, why don’t Orthodox Jews believe Jesus is divine? After all, it was their holy scriptures first and they had access to all the OT prophesies about the future messiah. So, you think god is unchanging? Please don’t suggest that I know more about your bible than you do. Of course, he changed his mind many times in the bible. Genesis 6:6 tells us that “the LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.” Also, Moses and Abraham both pleaded with god to change his mind. By the way, Psalms 115:3 tells us that god does what he pleases. “…how is our opinion better? What are you using as your moral foundation as better than an omniscient God?” It is my view that my opinion is better than your god’s because I would never command the total destruction of innocent women and children. The foundation of my subjective position is based mostly on empathy and well-being. I believe morality is subjective and situational. I believe life, in the most part, is preferred to death. I believe health is preferable to death, and happiness is preferable to sadness. And guess what? I don’t need a god for any of this. “God didn't create a flawed world, He created a perfect world we corrupted by sin (Genesis 3). What foundation for objective morality are you using without God?” Yes, god did create a flawed world. According to scripture, he created all things. If god created a perfect world, it would be perfect. It’s not perfect. The ultimate foundation for morality is not objective. It is subjective and situational. I do have a sense of worth in humans. I subjectively assigned this worth and it was not bestowed upon me by some sky daddy. The question is why would your god allow the rape to happen? Doesn’t he have a similar worth in humans? Apparently not. I would stop the rape and your god allows it. Why is that? Oh, because we live in a fallen world. How convenient! Or, maybe your god likes watching little girls getting raped. “You start with the assumption the girl is morally sin free.” Are you suggest that she deserved being raped because she is not perfect? You claim that god is being patient with the rape victim and the rapist. So, this god is allowing this 9-year-old girl to be raped because he is patient with her? And you call him just and merciful? Of course I can say it is wrong to rape a little girl. The reason is that it goes against her well-being. I subjectively chose well-being, fairness, compassion, justice, etc. as part of my morality. Again, I don’t need a god for any of those things.
@@Generatorman59 "It is not an objective fact that this Jesus existed" The _eyewitness_ gospel writers & historians of the time (Jewish Jospehus & Roman Pliny) & present (Atheist Ehrman) disagree. If you disagree, i'd love to see your cited, intelligent evidence. "And even if he did, there is no reason to believe he was divine." He claimed to be divine & proved such through miracles publicly in front of believers & nonbelievers, i cited that last comment, give me your objective sources why my sources are false? "By the way, why don’t Orthodox Jews believe Jesus is divine?" John 3:19, "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil", like you, they are inclined against God, but not because lack of evidence. "After all, it was their holy scriptures first and they had access to all the OT prophesies about the future messiah." He claimed to be from their scripture, John 5:39, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." & Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her". They dont want anyone to rule them, so they rebel against God, as you do, no matter the consequence. "Genesis 6:6 tells us that “the LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.” God can regret something while knowing what's going to happen, He can allow you to exist even though He knows how many times you're going to sin tomorrow, He allows you while regretting your decisions leading to your detriment, but in His omniscience knows the ultimate goal is His glory. Regret (oxford) "feel sad, repentant, or disappointed over (something that has happened or been done)", doesn't mean changing His mind. "Also, Moses and Abraham both pleaded with god to change his mind." As a Father, He can incite someone to do something by His actions, He omnisciently knew what Abraham & Moses were going to do, so He did what He had to do to get them there, just as a parent does to their child. "Psalms 115:3 tells us that god does what he pleases." Because His nature is the standard for good, why is your subjective, fallible, limited knowledge opinion better than His omniscient, infallible character? "It is my view that my opinion is better than your god’s because I would never command the total destruction of innocent women and children." In His omniscience, He knew what would be best; in your limited knowledge, how do you know what would have happened if He didn't? "The foundation of my subjective position is based mostly on empathy and well-being." What makes "empathy & well being" the standard? You havent answered the question, only kicked the can down the road....(begging the question fallacy) "I believe morality is subjective and situational" Therefore you have no right to say a man raping a woman is wrong, because he thinks its ok, since you have not founded your empathy & well being in anything other than your subjective opinion. "I believe life, in the most part, is preferred to death." You subjectively believe that, but what is the foundation? Your opinion is only subjective, limited & fallible, not infinite, omniscient & infallible as God is. Explain the _foundation_ for your belief, not what you believe. This is the whole video he talked about this, you have morality, but you dont think into the foundation of it too deep, prolly because you dont like where it leads. Also, If you believe in life preferable to death, what about the life that may come from the pregnancy? Do you support the act that got the baby there then? I'm not talking about abortion, i'm talking about if the man creates a baby with the woman, isnt that the life you say you support? Be consistent.... "I believe health is preferable to death, and happiness is preferable to sadness." But you havent a foundation for your belief, just your subjective, fallible opinion, so why do you have a say over a man raping a woman that's wrong? He thinks its good, you think it's bad, what's the transcendent decider? "If god created a perfect world, it would be perfect. It’s not perfect." Keep reading Genesis to chapter 3, _man_ corrupted the creation when he sinned against God by defying Him, thus where we are now. We deviated from His perfect standard and made more tainted with sin, your worldview gives no perfect standard, whats your foundation for "perfect" or "good" outside your subjective opinion? "It is subjective and situational." I repeat, then you have no foundation for saying rape is wrong, just your subjective opinion. "I do have a sense of worth in humans." Because of the "imago dei" God instilled in you when He created you, not you subjective opinion. As the video says, without God we are an accident & have no more worth than a rock, bug or anything, but the image of God inside us tells us humans are worth something innately inside us. "The question is why would your god allow the rape to happen?" Why is rape wrong in your subjective morality if the man raping says its right? You need a higher authority than you both. "Are you suggest that she deserved being raped because she is not perfect?" You're twisting words to something i didnt say, i _specifically_ didnt say that, I _said_ He is patient for her to live her life in time to repent, just as the man gets time to repent instead of killing (punishing) the girl, man, you & I the first time we ever sinned. He has infinite eternity in perspective, you have the immediate satisfaction of yourself in "doing good" (whatever _that_ subjectively means without foundation), His ways are higher (Isaiah 55:8). You're weighing some sin heavier than others when all sin leads to judgement of Hell (Hebrews 9:27). Supposing God exists, have you sinned? "The reason is that it goes against her well-being. I subjectively chose well-being, fairness, compassion, justice, etc. as part of my morality" I conclude with you still haven't given an objective foundation for these morals, only begging the question (fallacy) where they came from, i can explain them saying God gave you a conscience when He made you in His image, where do you say you derive these morals from foundationally? The man subjectively chose that rape is ok, if it's all subjective why is it wrong & why would you stop him from doing what he thinks is right? May God show Himself to you in spirit & truth, God bless!
@@robmc120 How did you determine it is an "objective fact" that this Jesus ever existed? Please provide a few evidentiary facts that establish that this Jesus has ever existed.
Atheist aren't good people, no one is if they don't have Jesus Christ. The ones you know might be nice people but they are not good people, that's scriptural. Mark 10:18 "“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good-except God alone"
Cliff - "God put me (a Christian) on this planet to love and respect my fellow human beings." This Spanish Inquisition, during its existence, punished heretics as follows: 01) Burnt alive - 31,912 02) Burnt in effigy - 17,659 03) Heavily punished - 291,450 04) Total - 341,021 Quotes from Hitler in Mein Kampf - 1) "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them." 2) "The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." Seems to me, that Christianity, has a history of being one of the least moral religions in the world. And yet . . . you get your moral foundation from god. LMAO. Also Cliff - "Well . . . no one is perfect."
We are all sinners bud and need a Savior for our souls. Half of Hollywood has a cross tattooed on their bodies, yet they do drugs, sleep around, cheat on their partners etc. Hypocrite will not enter the Kingdom of God, Bible is very clear on that. Keep searching brother. All roads will take you to the dead end, death. Jesus is the Life eternal. Life is in the blood and he gave his own blood for all of us. Believe and you will be saved, a child can understand it.
You are correct that people have stolen the name and auspices of Christ and used them to horrific ends, but I promise you that any follower of Christ would reject things such as the Spanish inquisition as corrupt, bearing only the name of Christianity, but not the characters or teachings of Christ. . Let's imagine for a moment that you have 5 children. Maybe you do; maybe you don't: we're just pretending. You raise them up to know right from wrong: you teach them kindness, goodness, patience, gentleness, peacefulness and self-control. For 18 years they live under your roof and see your example, lived out day by day, of all these moral concepts. You talk the talk and you walk the walk. . Then at age 19 two of your kids move out of the house. They go to college and one night they go out, get drunk, date rape a couple of girls, and get into an accident on the way home and kill someone. . Are you a bad father? Are your teachings incorrect? Shall I write your teaching off as false because of what your kids did? . Just so with Christ. Don't write him off for what his "kids" do. Ask yourself, what did HE do? What did HE teach? Is CHRIST good? . Christians always follow Christ. Therefore, since Christ rejected things such as murder and torture, we can confidently say that the people doing those things is his name were to blame, not Christ himself. It shouldn't be too difficult for us to understand that we don't blame the teacher when his students fail to understand or follow his teachings.
@Justin Gary , so what I hear you saying is that when people make up stuff that a religion doesn't actually teach and do atrocious things, we still blame the religion even though the people who claim they are following the religion actually aren't following the religion? I suppose we could then blame Humanist philosophy for every atrocity as well, since people who claim to be natural humanists refuse to follow the beliefs of human equality that came down to us from the Enlightenment...
Consciousness and identity are axioms. In order to identify something it presupposes things are that you are and that you have a mind to understand objective reality because things are what they are.
I would say he's searching, but he's doesn't have discussions, he interrogates, because he doesn't answer your questions so he's not accountable to any claims, very childish. God bless you!
I love how that one kid is like "well conscience isn't proof of god because animals have consciences to" Dude... you are not helping your case, you are helping HIS. You are extending the problem even further.
Lol if truth actually matters to you then belief is NOT a "choice" you are either convinced or you are unconvinced and its EVIDENCE that should convince you NOT faith. I could not just make myself believe in pixies no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Maybe you can 😜
@@JonnyHalfton lol certainly cupcake. I don't believe it is or was ever moral to ... *"Buy your slaves from the heathen nations that surround you"* Regardless of it saying so in Leviticus 25 . That alone would be an improvement on those that think the God of biblical naratives a moral standard we should adhere and aspire to. 😜😜
@@JonnyHalfton No dear, I don't believe in your "God" 😂🤣🤣🤣😅 I do however believe that your holy fable contains immoral instructions that Christians THINK come from a suposed PERFECT omnibenevolent "God" 🤪
Dont understand how they can not get how if you are a atheist and believe there is no God that everything is relative ( anything goes) but God put a conscientious in all of us to understand the difference between right and wrong ( which mean that everything is not relative) We feel guilt if we do something wrong, where do that feeling come from ( God) I cant believe they do not understand this, I think it may be pride of trying to prove him wrong instead of admitting that Cliff is making a valid point, either that or they are not that smart, which I do not feel is the case. Matthew 13:13 seeing they do not see, they will hear but do not understand.
@@g3tmoore The term 'good' is not defined by any mythological deity. Humans, and humans alone, define the meanings of words. I determine what is good (and not good), not some imagined deified substitute for those incapable of thinking for themselves.
@@g3tmoore nope, even if a creator do exist, he can't just do whatever he wants to do with us considering we are sentient beings. No one can stop him since he's the most powerful, but whats wrong is wrong. People like you are problematic cause you cant arrive at a conclusion without ur deity telling you or the absence of a punishment. Is killing, stealing, raping etc wrong because its wrong or because god said that those are wrong?
@@theoskeptomai2535 Ah okay, so you determine what has value and what does not? Sounds like a dictator to me. Many THINKING people determine what is good or bad everyday and bring harm to other human beings. People can think for themselves and still be pieces of dung. Moral relativism always leads to dehumanization because human opinions are biased. Yahweh’s boundaries and commands of love create safety. We have intrinsic value and it did not come from “your determination”.
@@christoffesedao3579 Yes. I determine what has value. And no, that is such determinations are not limited to dictators. Such includes _all_ individuals. Do you think before you type?
Morality maintains order and is an extension of creation just as laws of science maintain order in the physical world. The crux of the morality debate is who defines what is moral, God or the collective consensus of men. Then one has to consider evidence for the existence of God. An ordered universe governed by laws, fulfillment of prophecies, man's ingrained desire for purpose greater than self....all point to God.
Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Hey Cliffe! Great work you do on these campuses. I need help from you. Somebody confronted me with a statement and said that " You wouldn't have believed in the faith that you do now if it weren't for Constantine because he modernised and produced the Bible." Could you help me with the history of the Bible pre-Constantine and the documents? Thanks in advance.
Relative morality isn't necessarily moral but it is, to a point, real. Many children get their morality from their parents, upbringing and the company that they keep. They can change, sure but the previous comment is reality.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Wow.. the dude literally did the most douchey cliche response possible, which is “..various reasons” when Cliffe ALREADY asked what his reasons are for believing Relativism. Unreal.
His heart wasn't ready for conversion... yet. I pray the Holy Spirit will work on him through this conversation with Cliff. The natural heart refuses to believe in God, but the student realized he was caught with no good reason, so he retread to gather his thoughts. . Can't blame him too much. Which of us hasn't stammered out a useless excuse or flimsy distraction when caught in wrong-thinking? We all have that flaw. The difference herein lies that God breaks down those walls we put up to separate us from him. Pray he does so for these young people as he has done for us!
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 Figured I'd find you here! 🤣🤣🤣 Now, do you have "various reasons" to put on the table? Or will you just continue to troll... and jump from topic to topic?
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 He says that after giving the explanation... find me a clip where he doesn't even provide an explanation and rants about it being ridiculous. It seems that you're projecting pretty hard here, considering the Atheists like the guy I mentioned actually DIDN'T make an attempt to provide any definitive answer, that's the irony.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 The burden of proof is on you to prove how he didn't which you gave no evidence of, it's not for me to get the training wheels and walk you through the video again buddy.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 You're the one who brought up "various reasons"... You can't defend your own position and we both know it. 'Nuff said. (Proverbs 26:12)
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The lengths the human mind and heart will go to avoid the obvious reality of its Creator is utterly astonishing 😢
it's the veil in their eyes, these absolutes truths can only be seen with spiritual freedom. only Jesus can lift the spiritual veil covering their eyes. it is a waste of time trying to reason with the spiritually blind.
And what lengths have you gone to avoid presenting ANY _evidentiary facts_ that demonstrates your current irrational and unsubstantiated claims to truth?
I have the courage to face _any_ truth that comports with reality. And that truth demonstrates to me day after day that any god is simply not a reality.
@@theoskeptomai2535 So then we all get to live according to our own version of justice and boundaries? We are just clay accidents so what difference does it make if there is no loving Father?
Yes, the man in the orange shirt is trying so hard to justify relative morality. He blatantly ignores the examples of how societies can create terrible laws and acts against humans. He cannot understand the simplicity of truth and innate value. He wants to be a god, rather than seek and know God.
@@christoffesedao3579 Did I offer either of those assertions? Yes or no.
That famous Cliffe squat! Love it 😂 Thank you for your work and ministry. You have helped me greatly over the years 🙏
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I am convinced that Cliff contorts his body during his explanations in such a manner that people can’t take their attention away even if they wanted to. So animated and passionate.
Yes!!! I agree. You should see him preach. He does the same thing in person. It’s like you can see him working it out in his head by his mannerisms and movements, which I think really helps listeners get it too
The last kid was so angy as he was getting challenged. Cliff been going at it. Love watching his old and new vids.
Cliffe just repeats the same falacious arguments that have been long debunked. A moral framework is subjective regardless of whether it's theistic or secular *ANY* and *EVERY* theistic derived set of beliefs would be subjective. The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@Chris P Cliffe just repeats the same falacious arguments that have been long debunked. A moral framework is subjective regardless of whether it's theistic or secular *ANY* and *EVERY* theistic derived set of beliefs would be subjective. The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@Chris P Cliffe just repeats the same falacious arguments that have been long debunked. A moral framework is subjective regardless of whether it's theistic or secular *ANY* and *EVERY* theistic derived set of beliefs would be subjective. The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@Chris P Is 2 enough ?
@@trumpbellend6717 you make the same case as the last kid.
Cliffe and his son are legends. Yea Its a point that cannot be refuted which is why the person that disagrees with it just goes in circles, gets offended etc..
100% agree. The "going in circles" is what they do, especially the first gentleman.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 If we are nothing but clay accidents, then what are you so worried about? Who cares what Cliffs says, or the atheists. We’re just meaningless temporary biological accidents.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 Why is dehumanising people 'bad' and 'disgusting'? Who says that? You?
Who tf are you to tell other what is 'bad', 'disgusting' and what isnt?
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 No! Since you clearly are a denier of God, where do you get of using words such 'bad' and 'disgusting' to describe any human behaviour? Who says certain things are 'bad'?
You? Society? Who's definition of so called 'goodness' and 'bad' are you using?
Hi I'm Mahesh from india...
JESUS is the only GOD in heaven.. ❤❤🙏🙏❤🙏🙏
Hi I'm Omar from America and I agree😁
Father and the Holy Spirit as well. 1 God in 3 persons
Umm no. The Father of Jesus is the only God. Jesus said, "My Father in heaven", and He also said, "My Father in Me". It's the Father in Jesus that makes Jesus God. The Father is in us too BUT WE ARE NOT GODS. We were created by God. Jesus was God appearing as a man on earth. He was God but He lived as a Man.
@@berane8909 Gee Bane, that's a lot of assertions. Do you have any evidence to back that up? How do we know what Jesus said. And, how do we know if it is true?
@@Generatorman59 not anymore than you've already heard.
"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,"
2 Corinthians 10:4-5
GOD bless you more grace and peace from GOD the Father and our LORD Jesus Christ brother Cliffe and dem boyz of yours.
See you in heaven brother.
🔥☝️🙏❤️
Cliffe does a great job of pressing people to the logical ends of their belief; once faced with that they come up with quite the explanations/pivots.
I need a part 2, about math, laws of nature etc. It started to get even more interesting at the end :D God bless you, you doing great work!
Anger was building up in the last student. I wish I could have heard the rest. Cliffe and Stuart are wonderful.
The reason the video cut out there was probably because Cliffe and Stuart had their arguments destroyed by him. If their best arguments are all strawmanning arguments their position is extremely weak.
@@fishjj76 That's possible :)
@@fishjj76 because it’s already a long video. Doesn’t sound like a weak argument that Cliffe made.
here is the remainder th-cam.com/video/2wm9qrb7gKA/w-d-xo.html
I don't think so at all, he made some great points. I would rather non believers battle it out respectfully rather than saying yes blindly to everything, without thinking or any questioning.
SALVATION IS ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST 🙌 John 14:6 kjv
Amen
Are you aware of any credible evidence that demonstrates this Jesus is a _reality?_
@Our Savior Correct. I have come to conclude that the god of Christianity is not a reality. What does my conclusion have to do with the question I have addressed to _Larz Man?_
Religion has humanized God, that is why they believe such erroneous things. God is not a human where he would say Salvation is only in Jesus Christ or you go to Hell. That is not love or compassion. Organized religion is about the behavior of humanity and informs us little about the Creator
Salvation from what?
This is one of the strongest arguments for God.
God bless you Cliffe for talking to walls(atheist) again. Your patience is amazing. The mental gymnastics and illogical circles that they put you through.
Right. Cliffe has had to explain this so many times I feel like people just don't care Cliffe makes a point. If you dont agree with it fine move dont keep saying the same.
In what manner am I, an atheist, a wall? Please provide an example.
@@robertmitchell8438 Hi Robert. No I haven't seen this video. But I will do so right after dinner. Thanks for the recommendation. Will respond back soon. Peace.
@@robertmitchell8438 I just now finished the video. And my first response is WOW. I knew some of the information such as the various gods represented by the movements of the Sun, depictions of a virgin birth, birth during the winter solstice, reference to a resurrection, but not with the detail, clarity, and overall insight that this video provided. It is too bad that every Christian doesn't watch this video.
@@robertmitchell8438 I will check it out later today. Thanks.
Dude: So, you think 2+2 only equals 4
Cliffe: yes
Dude: I see what you’re saying but I disagree
Cliffe: why?
Dude: because, social bonds and stuff
2 + 2 only = 4 when we work in base 10, it's us humans that make the rules dear and the same applies to the man made concept of morality. A moral framework is subjective regardless of whether it's theistic or secular *ANY* and *EVERY* theistic derived set of beliefs would be subjective. The claim that theistic morality is somehow superior because its "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@@trumpbellend6717 Is what you said true?
@@puresynergyflo It is "correct" dear.
@@trumpbellend6717 are you absolutely correct about that dear or is that statement you made correct just once in a while? Or maybe it’s correct for you but not for me. Not my truth, and all that. Maybe you just have to respect my correct opinion that is diverse from yours.
Lol mathematics is a "concept" dear, so it is only when working within an agreed upon arbitrarily predetermined framework ( ie which base we are using ) that one can make Objective statements. Absent this framework such statements are subjective BY DEFINITION.
Please tell me precisely WHY do you think human reference standards must be "Objective" and "God given" in order to function and serve their purpose ??? Let me give you an analogy, perhaps then you will understand.
Our metric reference standards for weights, distance ( kilometers, meters, centimetres ect ) was originaly a man made concept, arbitrary with no divine dictate involved. Yet once it becomes accepted and a consensus reached it functions perfectly. A "meter" is not some vague "about this big" concept that varies dependant on culture or God.
We can OBJECTIVELY measure things within our metric reference framework 😜
Precisely the same applies to our moral reference standard, it too requires only an agreed upon reference standard in order to function. Can you think of a better standard to aspire and adhere to than one based upon human well-being, empathy , equality and respect ???
Do you really think it preferable to base it upon the knowledge, moral values and ideologies of Iron age people that believe it moral to ..
*"Buy your slaves from the heathen nations that surround you"*
That a raped girl should be stoned to death for not screaming loud enough along with unruly rebellious children who disobey their parents ( sounds like most teenagers to me ) and the people who gather sticks on the wrong day of the week ??
Crusades, holy wars, inquisitions, forced conversions of indigenous peoples, crashing planes into towers, ect ect all done specifically for religious reasons. By people striving to attain their subjective Gods "moral perfection" and citing the moral imperfection of the victims as justification 🤮🤮🤮
Great job handling questions as always, men of God, the objective truth _can_ be defended. May God bless you for your ministry!
fancy words but still no evidence
@@damianbennett5329 Evidence you dont agree with is still evidence; refute their moral argument.
@@robmc120 What is this 'objective truth' to which you refer?
@@robmc120
How bout you people stop making up your own definitions.?
Evidence does not include fables. You people are like adults with the brains of infants.
What is the "objective truth"? And how do you KNOW it is true?
I find myself talking like cliff nowadays, it’s good the more you watch the more my faith is challenged and the more I’m intellectually honest to seek truth but I’m confident that I’ve found truth no one else other than Jesus Christ.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are witnessing the transformation into indoctrination.
@@Generatorman59 you talk like an atheist
Do you also believe people with disabilities are a drain on society like Cliffe does?
I pray seeds were planted here. Keep up the good work!
Oh the patience and wisdom God has given you Sir Cliffe. Thank you for what you do and teach all who come across, May God keep using you greatly.
Thanks Cliffe, for another interesting and informative video.
I love when people throw in big words. That’s how you know they don’t know because they have to sound smart to manipulate the people around.
The point that comes out in this conversation with the fellow in the orange shirt is this. As an atheist, the closest to objective morals he can come to is to stop saying doing something IS wrong and instead saying he objectively knows that something FEELS wrong at the moment. Or the atheist could say doing something is objectively RISKY at the moment even if it feels fine.
Soo.. why would it be risky to strangle an homeless man on the streets at 2 o'clock at night where nobody sees you?
@@alexandrumicu3357 that's when most would default to focus on it feeling wrong at that moment. They can objectively know that it does feel wrong, but what good is that? I ask: don't atheists come away from watching horror movies like Saw and realize they would hurt or kill anyone under certain conditions.
@@jeffreyontheway Maybe you knew that ,, homeless" is a liar and tricks people every day to give him money with his pockets full of them. Not only that you do some sort of justice (not really), but you take all of his money to increase your survival rate bacause of financial problems. Would that be right? If not, why not? Because he clearly doesn't have good intentions.
And even if he claims he objectively knows something feels wrong, he is still left with the question of why it feels wrong. He cannot escape the truth that we were given a moral compass. And it is not a compass for survival. It is to love others in the way our Heavenly Father loves. If we are just clay accidents why would we not just do as we please, if we truly know that we are just physical beings with know spiritual value.
@@christoffesedao3579 Why does my inner moral compass know it's wrong for a supposed all loving being to command the slaughter of women and children of other nations?
"Cliffe, I think you should get a portable comfortable chair to get in, and sit or stand to be more comfortable when you are doing your debating and witnessing"! "You are a great debater and child of "Our Lord", and I think it would benefit you, but I understand why you are doing what you're doing! "I so love the way you witness to the people, and for our Lord! God bless you Dr. Cliffe! With love and 🙏's.
Life begins the womb.
John 3:16-21 💝
Good job I preach on the street and I like to pick up tips on how to handle different conversations pray for all those colledge kids even the ones just walking by and not stopping pray that they will get saved with jesus
Can we get an unedited version of these videos where we can watch the whole thing? It’s so interesting!!! Great job guys. Amen
I agree!
Cliff..you were definitely made for what you do. Very passionate about educating and clarifying Gods word to educated yet spiritually blinded people. I LOVE the “power stances” and the pacing. Physically shows how engaged you are.
Give me an answer, homie!! 🙌
They'll never hear a word until the Lord blesses them with the ability to hear.
Dude your are truly a boss!! Keep them coming man this is good
This was great! Thank you god for giving this to us.
Please, no offense, but the word God should always be capitalized when used in a sentence. Just for your awareness. "With ❤ and 🙏's"!
I learn from you every time thanks again.. praise GOD 🙏
I usually like Cliffe's video but at 12:45 you can see the frustration on his face when the young man is still not understanding what he's arguing. Here I can't blame the young man for not understanding his argument I can only blame Cliffe for not explaining his argument more clearly. What Cliff is talking about is ontology not epistemology. Epistemology is the theory of knowledge, how we come to know something. Ontology is the nature of being why things are the way they are. What Cliff is arguing is that you can certainly know some things are right and wrong and not believe in God. But that doesn't mean that your foundation for why you believe X is right or wrong is validated. Cliff is saying that while our foundation to know what is right and wrong can be the same and be validated are foundations for why we believe they are right and wrong is not the same. That's why Cliff says that it's impossible to live out moral relativism because the foundation for why any atheist believes that x is right or wrong is not a logically sustainable foundation. How you came to know why it was right or wrong is validated but your foundation for why you believe it is that way is not logically sustainable. That's what Cliff is trying to argue and I must admit he's doing a very poor job at explaining it. This is why I think people like Cliff need to get into a lot more apologetic argumentation rather than arguing strictly from the side of a pastor. It would greatly benefit his ministry a lot more by educating himself on the actual arguments that are phrased by different apologists today.
Finally another one! Great video as always. Hallelujah!
Good sign that the Holy Spirit is striving with men against the growing tides of unbelief in the last days ; sowing the seed while God can still be found. Indeed you are privileged to be chosen for this generation to carry on the banner of Christ, “GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF MEN” There is NO OTHER WAY for he is the only living God / Creator that has all the power and glory to give immortality and eternal life by RESURRECTION. There’s NOTHING else in any religious traditions of the world far greater than this, who offers this free gift of salvation and exaltation. Hallelujah, Glory to God in the name of his only Begotten Son ,Yeshua
Love this channel, clever Cliffe, brilliant 😇👌🙌🙌🙌🙏🏽🙏🏻🙏🏿🙏🏼🙏♥️♥️♥️
Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Can we have the rest of the video please!!? Thank you, God bless you!!
after searching for a couple of mins i found the continuation th-cam.com/video/2wm9qrb7gKA/w-d-xo.html
Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
Wonderful videos. Absolutely thought provoking. Please keep these videos coming.
Tremendously handled by Cliffe. Definitely one of the better episodes.
There are many people in India who claim to be God, but none of them have the right to claim to be God. The perfect example of the word God is only Jesus Christ
How is this Jesus Christ a perfect example of a god? Please define what you mean by the term 'God'.
@Our Savior I do care. And in what manner am I a 'troll'? Please define what you mean by the term 'troll' and provide an example of how I explify such.
Glad to see fellow Indian Christian brother watching Cliff. Salvation is only through Jesus Christ
@@theoskeptomai2535 go watch cnn and bill maher youtube channels 🤣 .
@Our Savior One issue at a time Jacob. I asked you a question. So answer the question and provide an example.
These students are receiving a world-class education in critical thinking!
Praise God for you Cliffe, none of them can articulate a valid argument, because it's all foolish.
It's outstanding how one can try anything to deny their own creator, pathetic.
zero evidence
Are you stating that I came into existence by means of my "own creator"?
Him as a Pastor I wish he wouldn't call people good when he knows no one is if they don't have Christ.
Mark 10:18
"“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good-except God alone"
@@NewCreationInChrist896 agreed.
Most of these college age adults are probably dealing with the same issues I had when I was in college with respect to Jesus/religion I justified why i religion was wrong in so many ways.and it came down to choosing my most basic desires/instincts what's my ego was telling me what's correct.Rather, than committing to awill to live that selfless type of a life..I used an immature finite wisdom. Now, As a little older person I can look back in retrospect with honesty why I wasn't willing to live a holier or selfless lifestyle back then.
Thank you cliff and Stuart really like you content and logic. If ever you have a written book i would like to buy one and have more of the knowledge. Also love your website. Keep up the good work brothers
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 what are you talking about. Is it the first time you hear their content because went to almost all their video and there's no such thing. Maybe try to really get the message and not construct a wrong interpretation.
You got it all wrong friend. He is challenging the belief not promoting this. He said it time and time again: if you are consistent with what you believe... He's challenging and make people think about what would having that belief (for survival) would imply. And again challenging the belief to see if it's consistent with how people live their lives
I like how he squats like he's about to tackle a fool lmao
It astounds me how people continue to try to resist Gods existence by finding arguments that are essentially clutching at straws in an attempt to justify their own lifestyle
Resist existence? How about first providing credible evidence for the existence of this god you've mentioned and THEN we can discuss resistence.
"I think you know that's a ridiculous question" uh no it perfectly demonstrates his point
I think these 2 speakers should be making a difference between legal ethical and moral laws. Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with them, but I think there was some things to be added to emphasize objective ethics and morals. What these students are trying to say are that ethical laws are objective such as natural rights and natural law, but they view morality as subjective in the sense that so long you don't hurt others, morality is relative.
Im Christian and for a long time despite still being Christian, I believed that natural law and natural rights are objective whether or not God exists, because of Argumentation Ethics (Look it up there's a 2 minute video on it by "RussianCapitalist" to prove the objectivity of natural law through apriori truths people presuppose through argumentation). But recently after thinking more on why God is NECESSARY than why He exists, it came to me that whether or not you can prove natural law through apriori/presupposed truths, it ultimately means nothing if God does not exist.
Sure, I could prove that things like murder, theft, and depriving someone of their liberty is contradictory against the natural rights you presuppose through argumentation (or mere existence for that matter whether or not someone has the ability to argue). But why should I care to follow ethical laws just because I see the fact that it would be contradictory to act otherwise?
What ultimately matters is God, to bring true purpose into life and purpose as to why we should care about being intellectually honest and ethically consistent with natural law and His word (the morals we follow). We can still prove to other Christians and those who are willing to reason, that objective legal ethics exist through argumentation ethics, and to be consistent with those legal ethics is to be a Voluntarist Libertarian at the bare minimum. As for morality, we can point to the sciences behind why acting morally is healthy for a person, but again what ultimately makes it matter, is if those morals are ordained by God
God is not needed for morals, he is only needed if you want to justify inmoral actions, for which he is quite usefull. We can explain morality easily without any god and we can also determine a working moral system without god. The moral systems we got this way are btw superior to the ones proposed by most religious types, cause they are more effectice in maximise wellbeing in minimise harm.
Amen 🙏 You do so much for college kids, thank you
It was just getting interesting!!!
My faith has found a resting place,
Not in device nor creed;
I trust the Ever-living One,
His wounds for me shall plead.
I need no other argument,
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.
2
Enough for me that Jesus saves,
This ends my fear and doubt;
A sinful soul I come to Him,
He’ll never cast me out.
3
My heart is leaning on the Word,
The written Word of God,
Salvation by my Savior’s name,
Salvation through His blood.
Dude at the end was getting p'd off.
Because he knows he's wrong. That's usually what happens when someone is losing an argument or a debate. And that stems from pride more interested in being right than actually learning and having their beliefs tested to see if they're correct. One thing I wish Cliff would do is keep these kids from sidestepping or ignoring the questions he asked them back. They love to move the goal post whenever their argument gets ripped apart.
Revelation 22:7
Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
All these atheist do is jump around from topic to topic. They present one question, get disproven, then jump to another topic, get disproven and then jump to another topic. And it goes on and on and on and on. Until eventually they talk you in circles back to the exact same point you were making. They are so confused
Cliffe does a terrible job grasping some of the arguments his interlocutors put forward. He totally misses the significance of what they say and even comes off as a sociopath in the process.
I'll be more than happy to stick to one topic Eagle eye. I don't think I'm confused.
Let's discuss any topic that concerns you about the position of atheism, Eagle Eye. I will answer each and every question you have about my position in a direct manner - and YOU can choose to stay with or change any topic.
If you do not respond, I will assume that you were disingenuous in your original comment.
@@bonnie43uk don’t even know you. I’m talking about the ones whom I’ve seen HIM debate. Can’t apply that to everyone that’s atheist
@@eaglei0n Conversations by their very nature move to different topics, sometimes people will use a different topic to make a point, Cliffe does this all the time, thats not a criticism, just an observation. Absolutely you don't know me, do you know the ones whom you've seen HIM debate?
Some people just love their sin, and they try to find every angle to ignore the truth to the point of having an elementary point. I think they know the truth though.. They just want to be their own God. Keep up the great work Cliff/and Son. I love it.
There is no such thing as SIN only moral and immoral actions. The percieved whims of anyone's subjective imaginary friend are irrelevant in any discussion of morality dear 😉
Another askCliffe ending on a cliffhanger 🤣✨👍🏻💯
knowing the famous honesty of apologists, the guy in the grey shirts was about making some very good points, and they decided to cut out beforehand, so that their theist fanbase does not get force to think about arguments. I mean, we can't have that, can we?
@@TgfkaTrichter
Very good points? Okay, list them and we'll talk about 'em. Fair enough?
@@jessebryant9233 you don't need much. It is enough to say, that our morals can be easily explained by our evolution as a social species. Therefore we have empathy for each other (something you can even see in the animal kingdom as well). Couple that we rules made by society, which are also necessary for this society to survive and you have a perfectly working explenation for morals without needing a god. Of course evolution does not provide you with morals as it is, but it explains, why we are morals. The morals themself arise from other factors, none of them supernatural btw.
You could now say, that those morals are subjective and would be correct, cause there is zero indications for the existence of objective morality. Actually like always when theist try to explain reality through their god, they create more problems, then they solve.
And a final fun fact. If you want to surpress the desribed empathy and bring humans to commit crimes against other humans, god is way more usefull, then we you want them just to be good to each other. So if I would be after a gotcha I could say, that god is not needed to justify moral behaviour, but he is very usefull to justify inmoral bevahiour.
Of course there is way more. You point to the fact, that morals are chancing all the time and are still different today, depending on the society you are living in etc. So many points. There is simple too much wrong with the moral argument to just answer it just like that. There is always a flaw, you might have overlooked.
@@TgfkaTrichter
Easily explained? Okay, do it... And, fun fact! What you just posted reveals only that morality is not a real thing and that your philosophical conclusion doesn't follow from your naturalistic premise. As for evidence FOR objective morals, well YOU provide such evidence, because you aren't actually saying that we should not do as we please because it lessens the likelihood of our own (or our species) continued yet pointless and ultimately meaningless existence, but because (for reasons you cannot explain) you believe various acts are actually WRONG, not just unfavorable. Trichter, pragmatism ≠ morality.
Get 'em Cliff!! God bless.
Asking if a moral system is moral is gibberish. Relative morality itself can't be moral, it's a way to determine what is moral. The question should be "is morality relative"? Well what would we expect to see if morality was relative? We would expect moral principles to be culturally and subjectively dependent, which is exactly what we see.
your circular reasoning is astonishing.. you missed the entire point. it went right over your head.
@@healthtalk2497 I'm glad I have you to explain it to me then
You never did get back to me....just saying...
@@spacecoastz4026 you're right, my bad. I appreciate the long response, I put it off because I didn't have time to read it and forgot to come back to it. I'll reply later
@@spooky6902 Thanks...
Murder is merely a term created by society to describe the unlawful killing of another human being. Killing is neither right nor wrong. Morals are relative. If there were no people in the world to care about morals, then morals would not exist. We're just like animals. The only difference is us humans tend to think of ourselves as "better" than animals merely because we're able to articulate our feelings into words. There is no 'better' or 'worse' or 'should' or 'shouldn't' in the realm of objectivity. Animals are just as sentient as humans are in that they can feel emotions and care for other animals and people. However, they still kill. The death of a human is no more tragic than the death of an animal. We merely consider it more tragic because of the bias that humans consider themselves as superior. Another thing we can look at is how we even call things artificial when we create them, as if we're not from nature ourselves. Technology comes from humans and humans come from nature, therefor technology is a product of nature. There is nothing unnatural about humans or their creations. We. Are. Animals. Things like morals, laws, justice, and all that other jazz? Entirely subjective. There is no universal moral that everyone can agree on. Even the golden rule of "treat others how you wish to be treated" can be thrown out the window when you take masochistic sadists into consideration. Surveys and statistics prove nothing. The majority can agree with anything but that will never turn opinions into facts. Value, love, hate, importance, etc. It's all in the eye of the beholder and there's nothing you can do to change that. Even assuming God exists, he's merely passing his subjective judgement onto humans and claiming it to be righteous merely because he considers himself superior due to having created the universe but creating the universe doesn't make your opinions objective. It just means you hold all the power. There is nothing here you can refute, try as you might. Morals are biased and relative to culture and empathy varies between individuals as well. Sure, I have my own morals too but I'm not going to get all egotistical and claim that I know what's truly right or wrong. My morals are just as subjective as anyone else's. No one and I mean NO ONE knows what's truly right or wrong. As far as objectivity is concerned, right and wrong are entirely fluid subjective constructs. If there really is a list of truly objective morals somewhere out there, we humans will never know if it's factual or not. EVER.
Fine. You are entitled to belive whatever you want but i hope you live accordingly to your worldview.
@@teodormarciuc9166
BELIEF is NOT *"CHOICE"* or a mere act of volition. Sure someone can pretend to believe anything but the things one actually believe are not something you choose they are an involuntary response to one's level of information and understanding of their environment. You are either convinced or you are unconvinced and its EVIDENCE that convinces.
I could not just make myself believe in pixies no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Anymore than you could right now "choose" to be convinced that God is not real or that the laws of gravity don't apply to you if you step off that cliff.
Tell me could you genuinely "choose" to believe the internet does not exist and we are not having this discourse now ?? I'm talking about being CONVINCED of it bud not just pretending!! Give me an honest answer , could you right now "Choose" to believe in Thor or Zeus ??? 🤔 No of course not, for exactly the same reason I can't choose to believe in Yahweh.
Now if I recieved some irrefutable knowledge or evidence then I would have to deny my own reasoning and senses. That what changes beliefs, not "choice"
If you came home and found your spouse in bed with the neighbour, could you just "CHOOSE" to believe in her fidelity and go back downstairs to make her a nice cup of tea ?? 🤣😅🤣
Why is even "cosmic accident" so bad? Even if it were, it wouldn't make life "therefore valueless". In fact, it makes life that much more valuable!
Using the word "relative" isn't exactly the correct word. Especially when you twist it into "therefore do whatever you want". There are things humans have set up...ways of life...codes of conduct. Why? Because over time, it has been realized that certain ways of life...certain actions...are required for a healthy environment. Does this always happen? No, of course not. Why? Because the human race is still desperately adolescent in so many areas of thought. But the goal, though unattainable, is still valid.
But for most people, it is understood that some things cannot be condoned for a healthy society. We can't have random violence. Random murder. Random theft. Etc. It doesn't matter if "some random person decides it's okay to kill his neighbor". That's the point Cliffe is missing...and it is due to his attempt to insist that "his god" is the "moral standard that has to be followed".
The Biblical "god" is not the source for "objective morality", even if it existed because just because the "most powerful entity says some certain way is the only way to act", it doesn't make it "objectively moral". Just "an edict". It doesn't make it "moral" at all....and in many cases, could even be demonstrated to actually be immoral. It's just that so many have been conditioned to not see what's right in the open for all to see.
BTW, I've not seen Cliffe comport himself as arrogantly, in the way he spoke to the students, than I have in this video. Not the whole video, but in places, I was amazed at how condescending he was. The way he said "buddy" was quite condescending.
If it's true there is no God, then being a "cosmic accident" isn't good or bad. It just is. And we have to face that fact. We're no more valuable than the space dust we're made of. How does that make life more valuable?
If morality is relative, why can't you do whatever you want?
What if you don't care about a healthy society? Why is that morally wrong?
What is your standard of morality?
@@Malhaloc _We_ give ourselves value. That's the difference. Star dust can't do that.
As I stated above, for a healthy society to exist, people have to comport themselves in a specific way, else there is chaos. And chaos is extremely problematic and dangerous. Hence,...laws to keep people in check. If a random person wants to violate the autonomy of another person [do whatever they want], that doesn't make them right...and will place them in prison for their actions.
Why is a healthy society something to care about?? I've heard apologists ask this question many times,....and I'm honestly dumbfounded that it is asked!! The answer should be plainly obvious.
My standard of morality? For what topic? If general,....it is wrong to murder, steal from people, rape people, do things that harm others,......and also,....to be good to others. Help those in need. Treat people with respect.
@@DRayL_ "We give ourselves value. That's the difference. Star dust can't do that."
And if it could, would that make it valuable? If I say I'm the greatest person on earth, does that make it so, just because I believe it?
"As I stated above, for a healthy society to exist, people have to comport themselves in a specific way, else there is chaos. And chaos is extremely problematic and dangerous. Hence,...laws to keep people in check. If a random person wants to violate the autonomy of another person [do whatever they want], that doesn't make them right...and will place them in prison for their actions."
I understand what you said. I was asking why a person is wrong if they don't care about building a healthy society. If morality is relative and I have kids that need food and education, or I just want to take more vacations, why shouldn't I steal from you to make that happen?
"Why is a healthy society something to care about?? I've heard apologists ask this question many times,....and I'm honestly dumbfounded that it is asked!! The answer should be plainly obvious."
To someone who sees living for a healthy society as the ultimate moral good, sure. But remember, morality is relative, not objective, right? So living for a healthy society is not objectively good. It's relatively good. And harming that healthy society is not objectively wrong. It's relatively wrong. To the person doing it, it's relatively good. You also have to ask which society we're talking about. To American society, you and I are really good people. To Iranian, Chinese, Russian, and North Korean society, we're the scum of the earth. Who's right?
"My standard of morality? For what topic? If general,....it is wrong to murder, steal from people, rape people, do things that harm others,......and also,....to be good to others. Help those in need. Treat people with respect."
That's your morality. By what standard do you say those things are moral? What's your measuring rod for morality? How do you determine what is moral or immoral? You've said it a few times in your response, "A healthy society", but that only begs the question, which society? The prosperity of American society means the enemies of America suffer. Why is it good that American society is healthy if other humans, specifically, the ones who want us dead, are unhappy? Doesn't that seem immoral to prosper at the detriment to others?
@@Malhaloc "And if it could, would that make it valuable? If I say I'm the greatest person on earth, does that make it so, just because I believe it?"
I honestly don't get the questions, as it related to my comment. Star dust can't. And no, what an individual believes doesn't make it "therefore true".
"I understand what you said. I was asking why a person is wrong if they don't care about building a healthy society. If morality is relative and I have kids that need food and education, or I just want to take more vacations, why shouldn't I steal from you to make that happen?"
For a society to work, it requires people behave to that cultures set standards. It doesn't matter what the individual wants. That's the point.
"To someone who sees living for a healthy society as the ultimate moral good, sure. But remember, morality is relative, not objective, right? You also have to ask which society we're talking about. To American society, you and I are really good people. To Iranian, Chinese, Russian, and North Korean society, we're the scum of the earth. Who's right?"
Often times we cannot know the "why" a culture is as it is. We, in America, see ours as a good culture...and it has some good characteristics. But it has some that aren't. Are we "right", as a culture, when we idolize sports ball players? When we talk about "achieving the American dream", which often leads to more and more selfishness? Who is "right" is very much subjective. And even when you through in religion,....the "god moral standard" isn't really purely objective...but the subjective characteristics people have granted it.
"That's your morality. By what standard do you say those things are moral?"
Again,...this is the problem...and the absurdity often brandished by apologists like Turek or Cliffe. We know why the things I mentioned are good for people to strive towards. Turek and Cliffe try to bully their religious belief into the topic, claiming "only a god can provide",......but it just is irrelevant banter. There hasn't been any credible or verifiable evidence of any "deity",....so the notion of "what a deity commands" is irrelevant. Religions books made claims,...but those were the beliefs of those ancient people.
"I honestly don't get the questions, as it related to my comment. Star dust can't. And no, what an individual believes doesn't make it "therefore true"."
That's the point. Just because you say "I have value. I have value. I give myself value." Doesn't mean you're valuable.
"For a society to work, it requires people behave to that cultures set standards. It doesn't matter what the individual wants. That's the point."
Again, you're assuming that having a healthy society that works is an objective moral good. Why is it wrong for people to disagree? What makes them wrong and you right?
Often times we cannot know the "why" a culture is as it is. We, in America, see ours as a good culture...and it has some good characteristics. But it has some that aren't. Are we "right", as a culture, when we idolize sports ball players? When we talk about "achieving the American dream", which often leads to more and more selfishness? Who is "right" is very much subjective. And even when you through in religion,....the "god moral standard" isn't really purely objective...but the subjective characteristics people have granted it.
Exactly. So everyone has their idea of what's right or wrong, there's no moral objective, meaning no one's opinion of morality is any more correct than another's. That's exactly the point. If there is no God, there is no mind higher than the human mind, therefore it is up to the human mind to determine morality. It's just an opinion. Just a taste. Do you like murder or charity? Do you like beans or broccoli?
"We know why the things I mentioned are good for people to strive towards."
Then why do you get so angry and defensive and start throwing insults when I ask you to explain why? If you know, then answer my question. As much as you don't like Cliffe or Frank, one thing you never see them do is insult people because they ask a question. Especially if they're able to answer it. That particular move seems to be reserved exclusively for atheists. @@DRayL_
Only the holy Spirit can chsnge a person's heart
When thst person opens their heart on their own free will
God uses cliffe tho to plant seeds and do Gods work thru him by giving an account for people of the truth.
Humans live in groups, and like all social animals we've evolved a system of cooperation that makes group-living possible. We call our system morality. No supernatural agent is required.
Exactly.
🙄another one.
So are you claiming that genocide is moral? Because many “systems” have been created by societies and agreed upon that involve genocide and other atrocities. Are you saying that as long as a group of humans agree upon something, then whatever they do is moral?
@@christoffesedao3579 WHO determines what is moral or immoral for you?
@@christoffesedao3579 So, are YOU claiming genocide is moral if it is commanded by a sky daddy?:
I Samual 15:3 -
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 -
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the Lord your God has commanded you.
We are the same thing we are creating. A computer need a program for everything; Calculator, search engine, Calendar, face recondition, volume, without any of does this we will not be able to used them in the computer. So foe the same reason we have felling, desire, judgment, reasoning, ideas, anger, Jealousy. Every one of does is a program install by a designer.
Amen.
This topic for some reason comes up a lot. Objective vs Relative Morality. Scenario: Two brothers can't get into an agreement what's right and wrong. The father chimed in and explained what is right and wrong and settled the argument. That's what God and Jesus does.
God's feefees are objective. Your feefees are subjective. You are worthless unless god thinks you have worth. You have to be told what to think because you're wrong. But god loves you... This is a trick to break you down before offering an outlet to false love. Welcome to the cult...err... Church. Please donate.
You have a rare gift. You seem to be able to hear things that are never said. It's either a gift or auditory hallucination.
@@saintpaulofyoutube4416 some people can read between the lines and some people have their head too far up their own butts to see anything. One day maybe you can come out for air.
@@korpse6rinder hmmm maybe you're right. I'll try to read between the lines like you.
So you're saying that atheism is just an excuse for sodomy?
Hey, you're right, this IS fun.
@@saintpaulofyoutube4416 you just pulled your head out and already thinking about your butt again. One day you'll get it. Keep trying...
"You have to be told what to think because you're wrong"? Dude, what are you going on about? All you trolls seem to be getting ever more desperate, most likely because your worldview... is wrong.
You guys are planting some good seeds. These kids are so pompous regurgitating words and thoughts from their liberal professors.
The ultimate moral foundation is subjective. Why is that? Because no one really knows if this god of the bible actually exists. It’s just some people’s subjective opinion that he does, and all the consequences of a subjective opinion must logically also be subjective. But even if this god were shown to actually exist, morality would be based on this god's subjective whims. God can change his mind and he can do whatever he wants. So, any way you look at it, morality is subjective.
"Because no one really knows if this god of the bible actually exists."
Except the objective fact that Jesus existed, verified by biased (Christians) & unbiased (Jewish/Roman/Atheist Historians); The man who prophesied His own death & rise from the dead when we still cant find the body despite having most other leaders, who claimed to be _the_ way/truth/life (John 14:6) like no other religious leader did, who is arguably more inspirational than any other person that ever lived (more music/art/writings/copies than any other).
"It’s just some people’s subjective opinion that he does"
It's also the most reasonable conclusion for the reality we live in, i havent heard/seen any refutation to the contrary of a more cohesive worldview, see J Warner Wallace's Cold Case Christianity channel to break it down.
"But even if this god were shown to actually exist, morality would be based on this god's subjective whims"
God is unchanging, so He has no "whims" in His omniscience of what's best for His glory, His ultimate objective, not our happiness. That's still transcendent of our subjective, limited knowledge, fallible opinion.
"Yep… actually, I am more moral than this god character."
In our limited, subjective, fallible minds, how is our opinion better? What are you using as your moral foundation as better than an omniscient God? Sounds more prideful that you're more moral, you may be worshiping yourself as the transcendent standard....
“Gee, it depends on who is responsible for this dead baby in order to determine if it is an evil act or not.”
God didn't create a flawed world, He created a perfect world we corrupted by sin (Genesis 3). What foundation for objective morality are you using without God?
"If I came across a grown man raping a 9-year-old girl, without hesitation, I would do anything in my power to stop it right there and then."
Because you have a sense of worth in humans, where do you get that from? I can explain God gave us a conscience, you are left with "it's forwarding the genetics of that man, it's not ultimately wrong, it may be right in fact". You can claim moral superiority all you want, but where does it stem from objectively?
"But what does your god do? Well, he just closes the door and tells the rapist, “Go ahead and finish, I’ll punish you later”
You start with the assumption the girl is morally sin free, Romans 3:23="All have sinned & fall short of God's standard", so even the girl goes to hell ultimately without Jesus who paid for both the rapist & the girl. God is patient with _both_ of them to repent in the fallen world they are a part of, the situation is wrong but you dont have a foundation for telling me its wrong besides your subjective, fallible opinion, i'd love to hear one cohesive with your worldview.
May God show Himself to you in spirit & truth, God bless!
are you absolutely sure ?
@@robmc120 It is not an objective fact that this Jesus existed. And even if he did, there is no reason to believe he was divine. Who are all these eyewitnesses? Where are their writings? Being more inspirational is meaningless when it comes to what is actually true. By the way, why don’t Orthodox Jews believe Jesus is divine? After all, it was their holy scriptures first and they had access to all the OT prophesies about the future messiah.
So, you think god is unchanging? Please don’t suggest that I know more about your bible than you do. Of course, he changed his mind many times in the bible.
Genesis 6:6 tells us that “the LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.”
Also, Moses and Abraham both pleaded with god to change his mind.
By the way, Psalms 115:3 tells us that god does what he pleases.
“…how is our opinion better? What are you using as your moral foundation as better than an omniscient God?”
It is my view that my opinion is better than your god’s because I would never command the total destruction of innocent women and children.
The foundation of my subjective position is based mostly on empathy and well-being. I believe morality is subjective and situational. I believe life, in the most part, is preferred to death. I believe health is preferable to death, and happiness is preferable to sadness. And guess what? I don’t need a god for any of this.
“God didn't create a flawed world, He created a perfect world we corrupted by sin (Genesis 3). What foundation for objective morality are you using without God?”
Yes, god did create a flawed world. According to scripture, he created all things. If god created a perfect world, it would be perfect. It’s not perfect.
The ultimate foundation for morality is not objective. It is subjective and situational.
I do have a sense of worth in humans. I subjectively assigned this worth and it was not bestowed upon me by some sky daddy. The question is why would your god allow the rape to happen? Doesn’t he have a similar worth in humans? Apparently not. I would stop the rape and your god allows it.
Why is that? Oh, because we live in a fallen world. How convenient! Or, maybe your god likes watching little girls getting raped.
“You start with the assumption the girl is morally sin free.” Are you suggest that she deserved being raped because she is not perfect? You claim that god is being patient with the rape victim and the rapist. So, this god is allowing this 9-year-old girl to be raped because he is patient with her? And you call him just and merciful?
Of course I can say it is wrong to rape a little girl. The reason is that it goes against her well-being. I subjectively chose well-being, fairness, compassion, justice, etc. as part of my morality. Again, I don’t need a god for any of those things.
@@Generatorman59 "It is not an objective fact that this Jesus existed"
The _eyewitness_ gospel writers & historians of the time (Jewish Jospehus & Roman Pliny) & present (Atheist Ehrman) disagree. If you disagree, i'd love to see your cited, intelligent evidence.
"And even if he did, there is no reason to believe he was divine."
He claimed to be divine & proved such through miracles publicly in front of believers & nonbelievers, i cited that last comment, give me your objective sources why my sources are false?
"By the way, why don’t Orthodox Jews believe Jesus is divine?"
John 3:19, "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil", like you, they are inclined against God, but not because lack of evidence.
"After all, it was their holy scriptures first and they had access to all the OT prophesies about the future messiah."
He claimed to be from their scripture, John 5:39, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." & Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her". They dont want anyone to rule them, so they rebel against God, as you do, no matter the consequence.
"Genesis 6:6 tells us that “the LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.”
God can regret something while knowing what's going to happen, He can allow you to exist even though He knows how many times you're going to sin tomorrow, He allows you while regretting your decisions leading to your detriment, but in His omniscience knows the ultimate goal is His glory. Regret (oxford) "feel sad, repentant, or disappointed over (something that has happened or been done)", doesn't mean changing His mind.
"Also, Moses and Abraham both pleaded with god to change his mind."
As a Father, He can incite someone to do something by His actions, He omnisciently knew what Abraham & Moses were going to do, so He did what He had to do to get them there, just as a parent does to their child.
"Psalms 115:3 tells us that god does what he pleases."
Because His nature is the standard for good, why is your subjective, fallible, limited knowledge opinion better than His omniscient, infallible character?
"It is my view that my opinion is better than your god’s because I would never command the total destruction of innocent women and children."
In His omniscience, He knew what would be best; in your limited knowledge, how do you know what would have happened if He didn't?
"The foundation of my subjective position is based mostly on empathy and well-being."
What makes "empathy & well being" the standard? You havent answered the question, only kicked the can down the road....(begging the question fallacy)
"I believe morality is subjective and situational"
Therefore you have no right to say a man raping a woman is wrong, because he thinks its ok, since you have not founded your empathy & well being in anything other than your subjective opinion.
"I believe life, in the most part, is preferred to death."
You subjectively believe that, but what is the foundation? Your opinion is only subjective, limited & fallible, not infinite, omniscient & infallible as God is. Explain the _foundation_ for your belief, not what you believe. This is the whole video he talked about this, you have morality, but you dont think into the foundation of it too deep, prolly because you dont like where it leads.
Also, If you believe in life preferable to death, what about the life that may come from the pregnancy? Do you support the act that got the baby there then? I'm not talking about abortion, i'm talking about if the man creates a baby with the woman, isnt that the life you say you support? Be consistent....
"I believe health is preferable to death, and happiness is preferable to sadness."
But you havent a foundation for your belief, just your subjective, fallible opinion, so why do you have a say over a man raping a woman that's wrong? He thinks its good, you think it's bad, what's the transcendent decider?
"If god created a perfect world, it would be perfect. It’s not perfect."
Keep reading Genesis to chapter 3, _man_ corrupted the creation when he sinned against God by defying Him, thus where we are now. We deviated from His perfect standard and made more tainted with sin, your worldview gives no perfect standard, whats your foundation for "perfect" or "good" outside your subjective opinion?
"It is subjective and situational."
I repeat, then you have no foundation for saying rape is wrong, just your subjective opinion.
"I do have a sense of worth in humans."
Because of the "imago dei" God instilled in you when He created you, not you subjective opinion. As the video says, without God we are an accident & have no more worth than a rock, bug or anything, but the image of God inside us tells us humans are worth something innately inside us.
"The question is why would your god allow the rape to happen?"
Why is rape wrong in your subjective morality if the man raping says its right? You need a higher authority than you both.
"Are you suggest that she deserved being raped because she is not perfect?"
You're twisting words to something i didnt say, i _specifically_ didnt say that, I _said_ He is patient for her to live her life in time to repent, just as the man gets time to repent instead of killing (punishing) the girl, man, you & I the first time we ever sinned. He has infinite eternity in perspective, you have the immediate satisfaction of yourself in "doing good" (whatever _that_ subjectively means without foundation), His ways are higher (Isaiah 55:8). You're weighing some sin heavier than others when all sin leads to judgement of Hell (Hebrews 9:27). Supposing God exists, have you sinned?
"The reason is that it goes against her well-being. I subjectively chose well-being, fairness, compassion, justice, etc. as part of my morality"
I conclude with you still haven't given an objective foundation for these morals, only begging the question (fallacy) where they came from, i can explain them saying God gave you a conscience when He made you in His image, where do you say you derive these morals from foundationally?
The man subjectively chose that rape is ok, if it's all subjective why is it wrong & why would you stop him from doing what he thinks is right?
May God show Himself to you in spirit & truth, God bless!
@@robmc120 How did you determine it is an "objective fact" that this Jesus ever existed? Please provide a few evidentiary facts that establish that this Jesus has ever existed.
18:45 "I just value human life more." Okay, and what if someone else doesn't?
Atheist aren't good people, no one is if they don't have Jesus Christ. The ones you know might be nice people but they are not good people, that's scriptural.
Mark 10:18
"“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good-except God alone"
To believe a philosophical system can explain away conscience is largely insane. I would ask - is it true that there is no absolute morality?
Cliff - "God put me (a Christian) on this planet to love and respect my fellow human beings."
This Spanish Inquisition, during its existence, punished heretics as follows:
01) Burnt alive - 31,912
02) Burnt in effigy - 17,659
03) Heavily punished - 291,450
04) Total - 341,021
Quotes from Hitler in Mein Kampf -
1) "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them."
2) "The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
Seems to me, that Christianity, has a history of being one of the least moral religions in the world. And yet . . . you get your moral foundation from god. LMAO.
Also Cliff - "Well . . . no one is perfect."
We are all sinners bud and need a Savior for our souls. Half of Hollywood has a cross tattooed on their bodies, yet they do drugs, sleep around, cheat on their partners etc. Hypocrite will not enter the Kingdom of God, Bible is very clear on that. Keep searching brother. All roads will take you to the dead end, death. Jesus is the Life eternal. Life is in the blood and he gave his own blood for all of us. Believe and you will be saved, a child can understand it.
You are correct that people have stolen the name and auspices of Christ and used them to horrific ends, but I promise you that any follower of Christ would reject things such as the Spanish inquisition as corrupt, bearing only the name of Christianity, but not the characters or teachings of Christ.
.
Let's imagine for a moment that you have 5 children. Maybe you do; maybe you don't: we're just pretending. You raise them up to know right from wrong: you teach them kindness, goodness, patience, gentleness, peacefulness and self-control. For 18 years they live under your roof and see your example, lived out day by day, of all these moral concepts. You talk the talk and you walk the walk.
.
Then at age 19 two of your kids move out of the house. They go to college and one night they go out, get drunk, date rape a couple of girls, and get into an accident on the way home and kill someone.
.
Are you a bad father? Are your teachings incorrect? Shall I write your teaching off as false because of what your kids did?
.
Just so with Christ. Don't write him off for what his "kids" do. Ask yourself, what did HE do? What did HE teach? Is CHRIST good?
.
Christians always follow Christ. Therefore, since Christ rejected things such as murder and torture, we can confidently say that the people doing those things is his name were to blame, not Christ himself. It shouldn't be too difficult for us to understand that we don't blame the teacher when his students fail to understand or follow his teachings.
@Justin Gary , so what I hear you saying is that when people make up stuff that a religion doesn't actually teach and do atrocious things, we still blame the religion even though the people who claim they are following the religion actually aren't following the religion? I suppose we could then blame Humanist philosophy for every atrocity as well, since people who claim to be natural humanists refuse to follow the beliefs of human equality that came down to us from the Enlightenment...
@@eb6359
No . . . you need a savior, a scapegoat, to atone for the sins that you don't want to be punished for.
Don't include me in with your vacuum.
And now you understand why we need a Savior. Well done.
Need to see the continuation of this. It was quite interesting
I would feel horrible to break puppy or babies neck. I do get the point though.
Consciousness and identity are axioms. In order to identify something it presupposes things are that you are and that you have a mind to understand objective reality because things are what they are.
This video has been out for 9 hours. Theo Skeptomai has already appeared in 14 different threads. His need for attention is becoming pathological.
@Our Savior hopefully it works as planned. Good luck at the doctor's.
I would say he's searching, but he's doesn't have discussions, he interrogates, because he doesn't answer your questions so he's not accountable to any claims, very childish. God bless you!
First thread I've come across that doesn't have missing comments! (What is with TH-cam and this ongoing glitch?)
@@robmc120 that's been my experience too. He pretends to be undecided on the issue but constantly makes comments that put ther lie to that pretense.
@@jessebryant9233 I suspect it's only a matter of time.
How the hell is the first gentleman was not getting it...OMG!!! This doesn't even have nothing to do with God. Strictly intelligence.
I love how that one kid is like "well conscience isn't proof of god because animals have consciences to" Dude... you are not helping your case, you are helping HIS. You are extending the problem even further.
it’s like people don’t want to believe in God only because they don’t want to be “wrong” in their current beliefs
Lol if truth actually matters to you then belief is NOT a "choice" you are either convinced or you are unconvinced and its EVIDENCE that should convince you NOT faith. I could not just make myself believe in pixies no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Maybe you can 😜
@@JonnyHalfton No dear, as previously stated i actually care about the truth of my beliefs unlike theists who belive that which they WANT to be true.
@@JonnyHalfton I'm an atheist and far to moral to ever be a Christian
@@JonnyHalfton lol certainly cupcake. I don't believe it is or was ever moral to ...
*"Buy your slaves from the heathen nations that surround you"*
Regardless of it saying so in Leviticus 25 . That alone would be an improvement on those that think the God of biblical naratives a moral standard we should adhere and aspire to. 😜😜
@@JonnyHalfton No dear, I don't believe in your "God" 😂🤣🤣🤣😅
I do however believe that your holy fable contains immoral instructions that Christians THINK come from a suposed PERFECT omnibenevolent "God" 🤪
I wanna hear more of that last debate
th-cam.com/video/2wm9qrb7gKA/w-d-xo.html
Dont understand how they can not get how if you are a atheist and believe there is no God that everything is relative ( anything goes) but God put a conscientious in all of us to understand the difference between right and wrong ( which mean that everything is not relative) We feel guilt if we do something wrong, where do that feeling come from ( God) I cant believe they do not understand this, I think it may be pride of trying to prove him wrong instead of admitting that Cliff is making a valid point, either that or they are not that smart, which I do not feel is the case. Matthew 13:13 seeing they do not see, they will hear but do not understand.
"Don't wonder at those who are good without god,
Pity those who need god to be good"
Good is defined by God. We all need God to define what good is. Without it, my good is equal to any other good.
@@g3tmoore The term 'good' is not defined by any mythological deity. Humans, and humans alone, define the meanings of words. I determine what is good (and not good), not some imagined deified substitute for those incapable of thinking for themselves.
@@g3tmoore nope, even if a creator do exist, he can't just do whatever he wants to do with us considering we are sentient beings.
No one can stop him since he's the most powerful, but whats wrong is wrong.
People like you are problematic cause you cant arrive at a conclusion without ur deity telling you or the absence of a punishment.
Is killing, stealing, raping etc wrong because its wrong or because god said that those are wrong?
@@theoskeptomai2535 Ah okay, so you determine what has value and what does not? Sounds like a dictator to me. Many THINKING people determine what is good or bad everyday and bring harm to other human beings. People can think for themselves and still be pieces of dung. Moral relativism always leads to dehumanization because human opinions are biased. Yahweh’s boundaries and commands of love create safety. We have intrinsic value and it did not come from “your determination”.
@@christoffesedao3579 Yes. I determine what has value. And no, that is such determinations are not limited to dictators. Such includes _all_ individuals. Do you think before you type?
Morality maintains order and is an extension of creation just as laws of science maintain order in the physical world. The crux of the morality debate is who defines what is moral, God or the collective consensus of men. Then one has to consider evidence for the existence of God. An ordered universe governed by laws, fulfillment of prophecies, man's ingrained desire for purpose greater than self....all point to God.
Appealing to their minds only gets them further into the minds, not to open their hearts to God.
Congratulations on 100k Subscribers
Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Bro the last kid was so butthurt he almost started crying at the end💀
Can y’all start the next video y’all post from where this one left off…..This was getting good
Agree....the ending was much more interesting conversation than with the kid in the orange shirt.
i searched through his channel and found it : th-cam.com/video/2wm9qrb7gKA/w-d-xo.html
The student goes from survival instinct to humans are natural social.
"so what you're saying is" "so what you're saying is" "so what you're saying is"
Breaking a neck of baby vs breaking neck of puppy??? Human has more value??? That's "specism" which I consider more horrendous than "racism"
🤣🤣
@@ChrisTheKing172 can you apply the same concept to "race" ?
Hey Cliffe! Great work you do on these campuses. I need help from you. Somebody confronted me with a statement and said that " You wouldn't have believed in the faith that you do now if it weren't for Constantine because he modernised and produced the Bible." Could you help me with the history of the Bible pre-Constantine and the documents? Thanks in advance.
His morality is based on magic and illogic.
How so?
Relative morality isn't necessarily moral but it is, to a point, real. Many children get their morality from their parents, upbringing and the company that they keep. They can change, sure but the previous comment is reality.
John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Cliff is a beast 💪
Awesome
Wow.. the dude literally did the most douchey cliche response possible, which is “..various reasons” when Cliffe ALREADY asked what his reasons are for believing Relativism. Unreal.
His heart wasn't ready for conversion... yet. I pray the Holy Spirit will work on him through this conversation with Cliff. The natural heart refuses to believe in God, but the student realized he was caught with no good reason, so he retread to gather his thoughts.
.
Can't blame him too much. Which of us hasn't stammered out a useless excuse or flimsy distraction when caught in wrong-thinking? We all have that flaw. The difference herein lies that God breaks down those walls we put up to separate us from him. Pray he does so for these young people as he has done for us!
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930
Figured I'd find you here! 🤣🤣🤣 Now, do you have "various reasons" to put on the table? Or will you just continue to troll... and jump from topic to topic?
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 He says that after giving the explanation... find me a clip where he doesn't even provide an explanation and rants about it being ridiculous. It seems that you're projecting pretty hard here, considering the Atheists like the guy I mentioned actually DIDN'T make an attempt to provide any definitive answer, that's the irony.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 The burden of proof is on you to prove how he didn't which you gave no evidence of, it's not for me to get the training wheels and walk you through the video again buddy.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930
You're the one who brought up "various reasons"... You can't defend your own position and we both know it. 'Nuff said. (Proverbs 26:12)
It will be more passive for a discussion to not put as example ultimatums.