I'd suggest making a video on the difference in driving characteristics between a 1.5 way and 2 way diff. Including the differences in how that effects your ability to turn (fwd AND rwd). Seen more than a few guys pissed at their car because they made bad diff decisions and can't make it through a turn, haha
Front wheel drive tip: If you're trying to get up a snowy hill and having trouble going up forwards, try reversing up the hill instead (if conditions allow, ie not on a busy public road). By doing so, as you begin to accelerate up the hill, you shift the cars weight onto the front drive axle. Also reverse gear is often the lowest gear ratio available in an unmodified car. This has worked for me many times trying to make it up steep snowy driveways.
Exactly how I got out of a tricky situation seeing some friends who live on the bottom end of crescent. Had to get car dug out first, then turned car round and reversed up the hill no problem, where other cars had struggled to get up the hill, which was about 1in3 and about 400m to top of hill.
A good idea. But not a bright idea. When you're climbing a offroad obstacle. You want to be stable and being able to drive safely. It's all about the tires that makes a big difference in offroading. All terrain tires, Ok. Mud tires, strongly recommend...
My 2000 Jetta VR6 had the fuel cut traction control. Stalled out getting out of some loose gravel, and as soon as I killed traction I made it out no problem.
about FWD cars at 1:51 with Traction control that cuts throttle, i believe the 10 and 10.5 gen Corollas 2009-2013 have this, and possibly 11th gen Corollas as well 2014-2017, they are rally-able as well and quite fun in the snow/ice! :)
Re: Differentials and Traction Control Explained I would love to see/hear more in-depth info/analysis on differentials. Especially visualization demo on full-on pro rally diffs and utilization. Very cool stuff. Thank you!
On a square left or right you’re able to carry more speed with the scandinavian flick. But on a sharper corner like lets say a hairpin, the handbrake gives you a smaller turning radius, which makes it perfect while a scandinavian flick will give you understeer most likely.
I've always been interested in cars but never deep enough to know how all the parts of them work. These videos are extremely interesting and informative, definitely gonna be binging these
Great video! Thanks for this excellent refresh on what people should know about their cars. I live in Canada because of our rugged weather, I sincerely think that all car should come with a limited slip differential either for front wheel drive or rear wheel drive cars. Open diff or traction control is for moderate weather and it is inadequate for what we have here. I think car companies should make the effort standardize limited slip differential on all models coming in Canada. Keep up the great work!
I have a 2015 Toyota Tacoma 2wd.. it came with traction control and auto LSD. It was okay. I installed a geared style limited slip, and a little bit lower gear ratio... The combination of the torsion and the traction control is amazing......
i put a trackloc in my rear (extra clutch pack), and an Eaton Elocker in the front. best upgrade ever! (also installed solid axle shafts instead of the Central Axle Disconnect)
Got here via googling to see if there is any chance that I could understand what Chase Elliot was telling Junior about why his driving style doesn't work with the Next Gen car. Suspected that it would be over my head. I was right. This fellow is crazy smart and incredibly knowledgeable. Suggesting the TH-cam animations is fabulous but my head already hurts too much and I don't like having my shortcomings pointed out so clearly. 🙂 Great demo and explanations.
My ST is at the dealer now to get my Quaife installed. I hear the LSD improve braking as it evens out the slipping between the wheels, not to mention cornering. Hopefully it is worth it.
@@Teamoneilrally Just got the car back. Have only driven it a bit on the street so far but it seems like it was worth it. The car tracks dead center on acceleration. It feels like the steering wants to pull to the center while driving down the road, and you can feel it pull to the inside on corners also. Definitely a lot more grip. My main concern was a sketchy feeling on hard acceleration all the way up to 4th gear, especially on a back road with a bad surface and wheel spin on wet roads.
great video. i had an 98 grand cherokee 5.9 (with the 249 transfer case replaced with a 242) that was essentially right wheel drive. it almost never spun the left wheels, very rarely the rear it would. no traction control at all. every time it snowed i would be crabbing down the street at an angle. i currently have an 03 bmw 325 XI which is nearly the exact same 4wd system, with its mechanical new venture transfer case and all, but the bmw has traction control that applies brakes. that works very well and will get all 4 wheels going when necessary, but its very true about losing momentum. i have on slight occasion had to turn off traction control to get a couple of wheels spinning better to get me up a hill or something.
Did a land rover experience the other day, one thing i can say is traction control, haldex and a £60k optioned out basic car is phenomenally capable when you want to drive on just 2 wheels! Took a little while to comprehend the 'give it more accelerator' of the guide!
@@Teamoneilrally most probably not. Traction control has a temperature estimation. If estimated brake disc temperature goes above limit it shuts down brake action. At least all the system do this I worked on.
@@K0nst4nt1n96 regarding brake temeratures which is the subject no. There is no problem with power cut. In genral it can be a problem but it is a more complicated issue. You can buy many cars with switchable traction control.
I am always impressed when a locked/welded rear end, Toyota 22RE, in 2 wheel, bouncing off rev limiter, goes more places and most other trucks in 4-wheel.. on half bald street tires!
1:53 the Chrysler 300 has that system. It wouldn’t go forward on slick conditions like I’ve, so I had to turn off the traction control in the winter time. It took too long to launch even if I go pedal to the metal.
Should have shown a WK GC with QDII 3x ELSDs.. probably the best real 4x4 system a production vehicle has ever had. Great video as always! Keep em coming.
Absolutely AWD-some. Thanks for a well-spoken and clearly shown demonstration. My old '03 AWD Highlander has a great AWD system for roads - never gets sideways, but it's craptastic for off-roading. :-(
Great vid! I have a Cherokee Trailhawk on my channel which has the locking rear diff. Also if you turn off TC it will still activate the brakes to act as limited slip.
My 2wd tacoma has what I think is a nice mix of systems. During regular driving with the traction control on, its a system where it cuts power when the rear spins. If you press the trac off button, it turns the power cutting off and has the brake actuated rear lsd (Auto LSD on the dash). If you hold the button for 5 more seconds it turns all of these off and it doesn't touch the brakes
Pretty sure the 13 honda fits traction control worked by cutting throttle. It was a pita with the manual if you didn't just power through it the car tended to stall when trying to start out on snow/ice. These vids are great, thanks!
thanks for the vid! there are a lot of good information here. example i always thought that the open diff tends to spin one side of the wheel because the weight is not equal in the car, now i know the other reasons and good to learn is better to off traction control when going uphill i snow
As you explained around 12:30 the only way i get out of my garage ramp when it snows is to turn of the ESP of my CLK esle i keep sliding and sliding and sliding without going up the ramp. I manage to climb it really easy without the ESP by just having the car doing exactly what i want it to do.
In any two wheel drive car with an open dif, once you start spinning on snow instead of giving pure throttle and to to squeeze it all out of 1 tire, wouldn't applying left foot braking and becoming your own traction control be more efficient? Plus being an added bonus of not having a computer tell you how to drive, and making an open differential spin both tires. I would also love to see more modern cars hooked to the jeep like you talked about at the end of the video. Hope I can come see you guys soon!!
Absolutely! You can use LFB to stop wheelspin when you're accelerating, and when you're trying to slow down on ice you can keep a little gas on and LFB to avoid wheel lock up.
@vibratingstring I have never driven a Camry or elentra so I can only react in general. If you mean pump through as I understand it then no you can not increase brake pressure through a closed valve. The only possibility is that abs also wanted to increase pressure. That's why it's important to push the pedal even when it is vibrating. On really slippery (or polished ice on which we test our systems) ice the slip curve is not too steep so if you overbrake without abs you do not loose much but definitely loose some traction. Try to disable abs , @teamoneil has a video about it, and measure in same conditions with and without it. Regarding TCS switch off it depends on how the manufacturer wants it but usually we only disable engine control. So yes in this case you are in charge of "sum" wheel slip if it is too extensive just let off throttle. Brake action remains to have the "differential" effect.
So much for the Classic Jeep Cherokee. I always thought they had some magical 4x4. Turns out you get to open diffs with a manual xfer case. I can see why someone would add a limited slip rear.
I would love to the RS hooked up. I have one and I'd be curious to see how the different drive modes effect it if they do at all. If i remember correctly the awd system overdrives the rear wheels faster than the fronts so that could be interesting but I think it's only slight so you probably wouldn't be able to see it from just looking. My guess is with the 2016-17 RS which has brake based torque vectoring up front you would spin all 4 wheels with the fronts kinda twitching like the 3rd fiesta with both rear wheels spinning the same speed but possibly different based on traction levels and the 2018 RS with a quaife diff spinning all the tires the same as the 16/17 but without the twitchyness.
Top stuff keep it coming! This also makes me sure about having some sort of locking rear diff on my old Impreza. It's really hard to find solid information about whether my specific model should have or not, some say open some say viscous.
Wow awesome video, very interesting ! I was hoping to see a mitsubishi lancer on there with active centre diff and active yaw control. Would love to see active diffs explained like on world rally cars through the decades.
Hi Team Oneill. Thanks for the videos. Can u make a video about lsd braking lock and lsd preload? What tuning on bumpy roads ör grippy roads. I read a lot of stuff but im sure u will describe it beter...
Great video. Thanks. I would like to see a modern 4wd car with adjustable TCS . Like off road mode or rock crawling mode or winter or whatever the car maker calls it.
Video idea: Is it worth upgrading an open diff to an lsd for a fwd or rwd car, if the vehicle is driven in winter conditions? In a fwd open diff vehicle, can some of the torque applied to the slipping wheel be sent to the other wheel by lightly pressing the brake?
That would be an interesting one, basically can you manually do what the traction control does? My hypothesis is that applying the brakes would slow the spinning wheel but not enough to get the wheel with too much grip going. Now somebody needs to test this.
You can definitely left foot brake to correct for wheelspin and force an open diff to transfer power more evenly. Basically you're deleting the "path of least resistance" by applying fairly equal resistance to both tires. With a FWD just remember the brakes are also applied to the rear wheels as well, they'll be dragging a little so it's a 2 steps forward one step back thing again. In a 4WD with open diffs front and rear this can be VERY useful off road BUT when you do it too often / aggressively you'll end up breaking some teeth off the spider gears in the diff... Or a U-Joint... Or shear an axle shaft... Or the ring and pinion...
Torsen works like this: If you had the rear left wheel on the ground and the rear right wheel in the air you would only spin the right wheel in the air. If you applied brakes while on throttle THEN it would transition power to the other wheel. They are typically intended for tarmac use because of this. On tarmac they give a really cool gradual increase of power transition.
Torsen diff is considered intermediate lsd to cater towards mild racing or sport road driving...because it will reat like normal open diff when 1 of the tyre floating in the air.. the weaker type of lsd is viscous coupling...using viscous fluid when slipping, fhe fluid reacts and thicken to grip the diff and transfer the torque equally...downside is total amount of torque can be transferred is way lower than torsen lsd... For maximum lsd performance the clutch pack lsd (1way, 1.5 way, 2 way) is considered ultimate lsd fit for motorsport use...(or welded diff for cheap drift hack) 😂
You’re god damn right it’s a problem. 18 focus cuts power. It’s crazy. I could turn off traction control on the older one, the new one.. start to spin... goodbyyyyeeee power.
My mk5 Jetta has the TC that will cut power to the throttle it’s very annoying in winter have to turn it off because it’s manual but on dry asphalt it hooks up pretty good
When you brought out the Transit I laughed because I had one of these vans for work and know how much they suck in the snow!!! That thing would get stuck on wet pavement.... No joke!!
10:30 IIRC Do all STI models disconnect the center diff when the hand brake is pulled? Or is this only true with the models that have the mechanically controlled center diff?
I believe its only the '04-'05 models. They have an electronically controlled diff that unlocks fully when the Ebrake is pulled. The '06+ models have the same thing but they also have a mechanical differential to prevent fully unlocking. Pull the handbrake in an 05 sti in the snow and you can do a fwd burnout lol
would like to see something on how differentials affect braking by gearing down. if it is a manual transmission does changing gears offer any advantage?
Second time watching the video; still great! But I have a new question. I've been practicing left foot breaking in my 2000 5speed honda accord. Since it's an open diff, are both wheels still spinning when I'm applying brake with the left foot and turning or just one wheel?
Awesome! Yes you can definitely ride the brakes to keep one tire from spinning and force the diff to turn both tires with more equal power. It may not be exactly 50-50 left-right but you can definitely keep it from going 100-0.
@@Teamoneilrally OMG thank you for the reply! I will definitely be signing up for some lessons in the future when I'm finished school. Best wishes from Canada!
How about a Honda Element AWD. I have one, and it is awesome in general, but really good in snow and ice. Will it rally? Is it allowed in the rules? Its insurance designation is a station wagon which is great on insurance, and I believe allows it in the rules.
Awesome video as always, could you make a video on your handbrake setups for the subis, I've been converting a 2.5 impreza into rally cross car and thinking I need a hydraulic clutch, my legacy I just wired the handbrake to turn it to fwd when I pulled it, not sure if this same method can be used on 07 impreza, what do you do with your 2.5's
in a live axle one wheel slips more than the other because the drive shaft torques the axle. If it spins right the right wheel dig more and the left slips
@@snape1464 you have a valid point. i think it still would be fine for their business as they really should have an inhouse service. anyway, this is just an assumption. maintenance on those cars would require a lot of labour which is expensive. As for the parts, they should be able to get cheaper aftermarket alternatives, or even another car to salvage parts for the one being driven.
so if i have an open diff in the back would applying the handbrake a bit make both the wheels spin? and does that also count for the normal brakes in front?
Do you guys have any write ups or videos showing how you setup the wrx with the centre lock, ebrake and front diff ect. Really want to do this to my car, but not quite sure where to start. Also deleting abs on these cars which fuse do you guys pull there is quite a few and I'm not sure if some are running other things as well
Ford traction control caused me to have a massive accident in a Ford Mondeo Mk1 ST24......I aquaplaned at 60mph on a country lane, I reacted quickly and saved it initially, dropped into 3rd gear and nailed the throttle to pull me out of the skid, traction control kicked in just like that transit and made the car essentially lift off oversteer off the road, massive accident , rolled 3 times and destroyed the car completely. That kind of traction control is DANGEROUS imho. If I remember correctly that system lengthened the throttle cable / shortened dynamically based on the ABS wheel speed sensor difference, very crude, the irony was I always disabled that crap when driving "normally" because it would often give you a completely dead throttle pulling out of a wet junction of similar, again, very dangerous, sadly the TC always defaulted back to on when you started the engine, and on this occasion when I crashed I had forgotten to disable it.
Can you help with light braking if one wheel on your open diff is slipping? I have open diff fwd and i heard that some offroad guys use the brakes on difficult tracks.
so for 4wd vs awd, is the 4wd's transfer case like a welded center diff? why do you get spinning corners with 4wd and spinning same-sides with awd? (white jeep vs red subaru)
anyways turn on to my street when entering a residential street I always hit the all-wheel lock. I came to my alleyway which has had some melting going on in the last few days of snow yesterday. So little islands and slush. At the alleyway I had a big puddle deep etc. so i was already in the all-wheel lock and i pushed the button thinking i was turning it on. went forward left front wheel up on an island and the right front down at an angle now getting traction moving up a good incline both right and left front tires meet ice and snow at the top rear wheels to follow...then I realize I did not have the all-wheel lock on. It griped pretty well surprisingly. Curious is that thing? I like to think of the all-wheel lock bracing everything keeping everything tight. if i had the lock on would I have angled in the puddle as I did or would the four-wheel lock have kept up and found another way through?. I always feel like with the all-wheel lock-in that situation the vehicle has to twist more without the help of the all-wheel lock. Also, curious e traction control is that how I was able to ease through so well thinking that I had the lock on but the traction control actually giving torque to the rear anyway. Saw the jeep ch at the end there have an all wheel lock...like mine except as I explained mine was off when ''i thought it was on ....
One thing... Tires/suspension are the reason my open diff 3rd gen 4Runner is WAY better in snow than my VR4 (3k) with LSD. Tires/suspension matter a lot when the coefficient is bad.
exactly, a car can have 4WD or AWD and all the diff lockers or LSD's you want but if you use summer tires on a slippery icey road you will still not get traction. The single best investment is a set of tires that work for the surface you will drive on. Snow and ice? > winter tires , preferably with studs Even a 2WD with open diff will do *much* better.
Totally agree about tires, they make more of a difference than anything. But suspension isn’t a factor when stopped , like in this video, or at very low speeds.
I'd suggest making a video on the difference in driving characteristics between a 1.5 way and 2 way diff. Including the differences in how that effects your ability to turn (fwd AND rwd). Seen more than a few guys pissed at their car because they made bad diff decisions and can't make it through a turn, haha
Front wheel drive tip: If you're trying to get up a snowy hill and having trouble going up forwards, try reversing up the hill instead (if conditions allow, ie not on a busy public road). By doing so, as you begin to accelerate up the hill, you shift the cars weight onto the front drive axle. Also reverse gear is often the lowest gear ratio available in an unmodified car. This has worked for me many times trying to make it up steep snowy driveways.
It also does better donuts ;)
Exactly how I got out of a tricky situation seeing some friends who live on the bottom end of crescent. Had to get car dug out first, then turned car round and reversed up the hill no problem, where other cars had struggled to get up the hill, which was about 1in3 and about 400m to top of hill.
No, reverse down the hill and go another way, because the problem is some idiot that got stuck uphill from you.
Was wondering, does Traction Control work the same in reverse on most/all cars that have it?
A good idea. But not a bright idea. When you're climbing a offroad obstacle. You want to be stable and being able to drive safely. It's all about the tires that makes a big difference in offroading. All terrain tires, Ok. Mud tires, strongly recommend...
Good video... I was just waiting to see the shovel get snatched under that tire.
Love this video.
It's the best visual demonstration I've seen of the different differential setups.
My 2000 Jetta VR6 had the fuel cut traction control. Stalled out getting out of some loose gravel, and as soon as I killed traction I made it out no problem.
Just found out traction control on my Ford Focus SE Hatchback sucks when starting from a dead stop in a snowbank. Thanks a bunch! Now I know why.
Do a video on how to make car oversteer/understeer more with suspencion setup. And all in all talk about setting up suspencion
Peeter Piip they have done one before
th-cam.com/video/EDmHpxgMxFU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/EDmHpxgMxFU/w-d-xo.html
guys you did a really great job gathering all this cars in one place. Thanks a lot for perfect illustration
about FWD cars at 1:51 with Traction control that cuts throttle, i believe the 10 and 10.5 gen Corollas 2009-2013 have this, and possibly 11th gen Corollas as well 2014-2017, they are rally-able as well and quite fun in the snow/ice! :)
Can you guys do a video on setting up a budget friendly car like this Impreza? Covering all the basics i.e suspension and alignment, wheel/tire, etc.
What a great demonstration-based explanation of differentials! Thank you.
Re: Differentials and Traction Control Explained
I would love to see/hear more in-depth info/analysis on differentials. Especially visualization demo on full-on pro rally diffs and utilization.
Very cool stuff. Thank you!
Make a video on scandinavian flick vs just handbrake turn. What's faster on a loose traction track.
depends on the corner, Scandinavian flick more predictable.
On a square left or right you’re able to carry more speed with the scandinavian flick. But on a sharper corner like lets say a hairpin, the handbrake gives you a smaller turning radius, which makes it perfect while a scandinavian flick will give you understeer most likely.
Pet3r38 thanks. That's what I wanted to know
The handbrake unsettles the car at high speed leaving little room for a decent recovery. Best used for low speed and tight hairpin turns.
I've always been interested in cars but never deep enough to know how all the parts of them work. These videos are extremely interesting and informative, definitely gonna be binging these
Always liked this channel. The fact you run XJs took it up to the next level. Great videos. Great explanations and demonstrations.
Great video! Thanks for this excellent refresh on what people should know about their cars. I live in Canada because of our rugged weather, I sincerely think that all car should come with a limited slip differential either for front wheel drive or rear wheel drive cars. Open diff or traction control is for moderate weather and it is inadequate for what we have here. I think car companies should make the effort standardize limited slip differential on all models coming in Canada. Keep up the great work!
Great video - does exactly what it says on the tin! Keep it up!
I have a 2015 Toyota Tacoma 2wd.. it came with traction control and auto LSD. It was okay. I installed a geared style limited slip, and a little bit lower gear ratio... The combination of the torsion and the traction control is amazing......
Thank you. It's good to see the differences first hand.
i put a trackloc in my rear (extra clutch pack), and an Eaton Elocker in the front. best upgrade ever! (also installed solid axle shafts instead of the Central Axle Disconnect)
Got here via googling to see if there is any chance that I could understand what Chase Elliot was telling Junior about why his driving style doesn't work with the Next Gen car. Suspected that it would be over my head. I was right. This fellow is crazy smart and incredibly knowledgeable. Suggesting the TH-cam animations is fabulous but my head already hurts too much and I don't like having my shortcomings pointed out so clearly. 🙂 Great demo and explanations.
My ST is at the dealer now to get my Quaife installed. I hear the LSD improve braking as it evens out the slipping between the wheels, not to mention cornering. Hopefully it is worth it.
You'll be very happy, especially on gravel or snow the difference is huge.
@@Teamoneilrally Just got the car back. Have only driven it a bit on the street so far but it seems like it was worth it. The car tracks dead center on acceleration. It feels like the steering wants to pull to the center while driving down the road, and you can feel it pull to the inside on corners also. Definitely a lot more grip. My main concern was a sketchy feeling on hard acceleration all the way up to 4th gear, especially on a back road with a bad surface and wheel spin on wet roads.
great video. i had an 98 grand cherokee 5.9 (with the 249 transfer case replaced with a 242) that was essentially right wheel drive. it almost never spun the left wheels, very rarely the rear it would. no traction control at all. every time it snowed i would be crabbing down the street at an angle. i currently have an 03 bmw 325 XI which is nearly the exact same 4wd system, with its mechanical new venture transfer case and all, but the bmw has traction control that applies brakes. that works very well and will get all 4 wheels going when necessary, but its very true about losing momentum. i have on slight occasion had to turn off traction control to get a couple of wheels spinning better to get me up a hill or something.
Did a land rover experience the other day, one thing i can say is traction control, haldex and a £60k optioned out basic car is phenomenally capable when you want to drive on just 2 wheels! Took a little while to comprehend the 'give it more accelerator' of the guide!
Another huge cons of electronic differential is the brake fading. I guess they didn`t talk about it because of where they are.
SOLID POINT we forgot to mention. You can get the brakes smoking without ever touching the brake pedal. I sense a video coming on...
@@Teamoneilrally most probably not. Traction control has a temperature estimation. If estimated brake disc temperature goes above limit it shuts down brake action. At least all the system do this I worked on.
@@gaborb It doesnt just shut down brake action but power too. That is a problem :D
@@K0nst4nt1n96 regarding brake temeratures which is the subject no. There is no problem with power cut. In genral it can be a problem but it is a more complicated issue. You can buy many cars with switchable traction control.
You guys rock! I'm hoping to come for a lesson in the fall.
It would be cool if you guys could do a video on sliding/driving a pickup truck fast on loose surfaces
I am always impressed when a locked/welded rear end, Toyota 22RE, in 2 wheel, bouncing off rev limiter, goes more places and most other trucks in 4-wheel.. on half bald street tires!
It'd be interesting to monitor brake temperature while all 4 wheels are spinning on that Jeep!
1:53 the Chrysler 300 has that system. It wouldn’t go forward on slick conditions like I’ve, so I had to turn off the traction control in the winter time. It took too long to launch even if I go pedal to the metal.
Should have shown a WK GC with QDII 3x ELSDs.. probably the best real 4x4 system a production vehicle has ever had.
Great video as always! Keep em coming.
Awesome demonstration, this video explains everything so well.
Absolutely AWD-some. Thanks for a well-spoken and clearly shown demonstration. My old '03 AWD Highlander has a great AWD system for roads - never gets sideways, but it's craptastic for off-roading. :-(
Great vid! I have a Cherokee Trailhawk on my channel which has the locking rear diff. Also if you turn off TC it will still activate the brakes to act as limited slip.
Beautifully explained
My 2wd tacoma has what I think is a nice mix of systems. During regular driving with the traction control on, its a system where it cuts power when the rear spins. If you press the trac off button, it turns the power cutting off and has the brake actuated rear lsd (Auto LSD on the dash). If you hold the button for 5 more seconds it turns all of these off and it doesn't touch the brakes
Great video! Especially helpful for snowy states like Minnesota
Hello from Finland. Yes you are pro. Keep going, Cheers
This is exactly why I'm happy my 2017 STi has 3 LSDs and a coupling so I can lock those up. Genuine traction.
Wow! Better than 90% offroad 4x4!
Pretty sure the 13 honda fits traction control worked by cutting throttle. It was a pita with the manual if you didn't just power through it the car tended to stall when trying to start out on snow/ice.
These vids are great, thanks!
thanks for the vid! there are a lot of good information here.
example i always thought that the open diff tends to spin one side of the wheel because the weight is not equal in the car, now i know the other reasons
and good to learn is better to off traction control when going uphill i snow
As you explained around 12:30 the only way i get out of my garage ramp when it snows is to turn of the ESP of my CLK esle i keep sliding and sliding and sliding without going up the ramp. I manage to climb it really easy without the ESP by just having the car doing exactly what i want it to do.
Great demo and explanations
I fucking love this channel. Thanks for making all this high quality information available for free.
Hey,
I love your videos. 👌👍
Toyota blade 2012 has that mechanism of cutting off throttle when the wheels are spinning and the car is stuck.
"One wheel drive" haha that cracked me up!! Genius:D
Simply the best vidéo in real condition I've never s'en.... 👍
In any two wheel drive car with an open dif, once you start spinning on snow instead of giving pure throttle and to to squeeze it all out of 1 tire, wouldn't applying left foot braking and becoming your own traction control be more efficient? Plus being an added bonus of not having a computer tell you how to drive, and making an open differential spin both tires. I would also love to see more modern cars hooked to the jeep like you talked about at the end of the video. Hope I can come see you guys soon!!
Absolutely! You can use LFB to stop wheelspin when you're accelerating, and when you're trying to slow down on ice you can keep a little gas on and LFB to avoid wheel lock up.
@@Teamoneilrally and exactly what traction control does. Average driver won't beat it. Of course average TCS is not for racing and racers.
@vibratingstring I have never driven a Camry or elentra so I can only react in general. If you mean pump through as I understand it then no you can not increase brake pressure through a closed valve. The only possibility is that abs also wanted to increase pressure. That's why it's important to push the pedal even when it is vibrating. On really slippery (or polished ice on which we test our systems) ice the slip curve is not too steep so if you overbrake without abs you do not loose much but definitely loose some traction. Try to disable abs , @teamoneil has a video about it, and measure in same conditions with and without it. Regarding TCS switch off it depends on how the manufacturer wants it but usually we only disable engine control. So yes in this case you are in charge of "sum" wheel slip if it is too extensive just let off throttle. Brake action remains to have the "differential" effect.
Nice video! it's really awesome to show us all the situations!
This test wast supercool, nice to visualize it. Some rally cars would be nice.
So much for the Classic Jeep Cherokee. I always thought they had some magical 4x4. Turns out you get to open diffs with a manual xfer case. I can see why someone would add a limited slip rear.
Great video. You should've mention Subaru STI and also perform the test with it. STI has front LSD among others.
Would love to see a similar video showing different makes and marketed awd systems
I would love to the RS hooked up. I have one and I'd be curious to see how the different drive modes effect it if they do at all. If i remember correctly the awd system overdrives the rear wheels faster than the fronts so that could be interesting but I think it's only slight so you probably wouldn't be able to see it from just looking. My guess is with the 2016-17 RS which has brake based torque vectoring up front you would spin all 4 wheels with the fronts kinda twitching like the 3rd fiesta with both rear wheels spinning the same speed but possibly different based on traction levels and the 2018 RS with a quaife diff spinning all the tires the same as the 16/17 but without the twitchyness.
Top stuff keep it coming! This also makes me sure about having some sort of locking rear diff on my old Impreza. It's really hard to find solid information about whether my specific model should have or not, some say open some say viscous.
Awesome visuals, great explanations!
I'd love this test with a recent audi Quattro and recent X-drive car . Great job !
they will fail as well. Most xdrives/quattro got open diffs
I love how you're living it while explaining the partial braking of traction control (~12:00) 😂
Seriously though, great vid 👍
A perfect example of traction control that cuts throttle can be found in newer Subarus with the CVT.
Wow awesome video, very interesting ! I was hoping to see a mitsubishi lancer on there with active centre diff and active yaw control. Would love to see active diffs explained like on world rally cars through the decades.
Wow great video! Very well done.
Great video :) Would love a video about the Focus RS as well.
Hi Team Oneill. Thanks for the videos. Can u make a video about lsd braking lock and lsd preload? What tuning on bumpy roads ör grippy roads. I read a lot of stuff but im sure u will describe it beter...
To funny I was just talking to him about that Transit. Great content as usual.
I really want to get a limited slip diff for my e92 some day, winter is a pain sometimes.. thank god it has a bolted version
Nothing better than a tutorial that uses your exact car! 🚗💨💨💨👏😎
Great info and explanation as always!! Amazing buddy
Awesome vid Wyatt 👍
Great video. Thanks. I would like to see a modern 4wd car with adjustable TCS . Like off road mode or rock crawling mode or winter or whatever the car maker calls it.
It would be awesome to see a crane scale / pull scale to measure effective pull force between the different models. Follow-up video maybe?
Video idea: Is it worth upgrading an open diff to an lsd for a fwd or rwd car, if the vehicle is driven in winter conditions? In a fwd open diff vehicle, can some of the torque applied to the slipping wheel be sent to the other wheel by lightly pressing the brake?
That would be an interesting one, basically can you manually do what the traction control does? My hypothesis is that applying the brakes would slow the spinning wheel but not enough to get the wheel with too much grip going. Now somebody needs to test this.
Before installing my lsd, i ofen got stuck on muddy hills with my e30, cranking the handbrake a bit did help a bit.
You can definitely left foot brake to correct for wheelspin and force an open diff to transfer power more evenly. Basically you're deleting the "path of least resistance" by applying fairly equal resistance to both tires. With a FWD just remember the brakes are also applied to the rear wheels as well, they'll be dragging a little so it's a 2 steps forward one step back thing again. In a 4WD with open diffs front and rear this can be VERY useful off road BUT when you do it too often / aggressively you'll end up breaking some teeth off the spider gears in the diff... Or a U-Joint... Or shear an axle shaft... Or the ring and pinion...
Information on a Torsen LSD? How are they different from a "traditional" LSD?
Torsen works like this: If you had the rear left wheel on the ground and the rear right wheel in the air you would only spin the right wheel in the air. If you applied brakes while on throttle THEN it would transition power to the other wheel. They are typically intended for tarmac use because of this. On tarmac they give a really cool gradual increase of power transition.
th-cam.com/video/JEiSTzK-A2A/w-d-xo.html
Works great under throttle, no brake application needed to power both wheels.
Torsen is short for Torque Sensing. There are a few different types of Torsen diffs.
Victor Kojenov I aways heard it as tortion, I didn't know it stood for that
Torsen diff is considered intermediate lsd to cater towards mild racing or sport road driving...because it will reat like normal open diff when 1 of the tyre floating in the air..
the weaker type of lsd is viscous coupling...using viscous fluid when slipping, fhe fluid reacts and thicken to grip the diff and transfer the torque equally...downside is total amount of torque can be transferred is way lower than torsen lsd...
For maximum lsd performance the clutch pack lsd (1way, 1.5 way, 2 way) is considered ultimate lsd fit for motorsport use...(or welded diff for cheap drift hack) 😂
You’re god damn right it’s a problem. 18 focus cuts power. It’s crazy. I could turn off traction control on the older one, the new one.. start to spin... goodbyyyyeeee power.
Can you explain how a torson differential works in this case and how good is it for off road???
My mk5 Jetta has the TC that will cut power to the throttle it’s very annoying in winter have to turn it off because it’s manual but on dry asphalt it hooks up pretty good
Could you do a comparison with the fiesta - poor man's traction control vs regular traction control ?
When you brought out the Transit I laughed because I had one of these vans for work and know how much they suck in the snow!!! That thing would get stuck on wet pavement.... No joke!!
Great Demo.
10:30 IIRC Do all STI models disconnect the center diff when the hand brake is pulled? Or is this only true with the models that have the mechanically controlled center diff?
I believe its only the '04-'05 models. They have an electronically controlled diff that unlocks fully when the Ebrake is pulled. The '06+ models have the same thing but they also have a mechanical differential to prevent fully unlocking. Pull the handbrake in an 05 sti in the snow and you can do a fwd burnout lol
I would think they all do, my 05 Sti certainly does it and even my previous 2000 basic turbo model did it, too.
would like to see something on how differentials affect braking by gearing down. if it is a manual transmission does changing gears offer any advantage?
Quick question about the white XJ. Did I see V-8 ZJ CV Joint Axle Shafts in the front axle?
Second time watching the video; still great! But I have a new question.
I've been practicing left foot breaking in my 2000 5speed honda accord. Since it's an open diff, are both wheels still spinning when I'm applying brake with the left foot and turning or just one wheel?
Awesome! Yes you can definitely ride the brakes to keep one tire from spinning and force the diff to turn both tires with more equal power. It may not be exactly 50-50 left-right but you can definitely keep it from going 100-0.
@@Teamoneilrally OMG thank you for the reply! I will definitely be signing up for some lessons in the future when I'm finished school.
Best wishes from Canada!
First generation Ford Mondeo (European one) had a traction control cut the throttle very sharply
Great video!
How about a Honda Element AWD. I have one, and it is awesome in general, but really good in snow and ice. Will it rally? Is it allowed in the rules? Its insurance designation is a station wagon which is great on insurance, and I believe allows it in the rules.
Awesome video as always, could you make a video on your handbrake setups for the subis, I've been converting a 2.5 impreza into rally cross car and thinking I need a hydraulic clutch, my legacy I just wired the handbrake to turn it to fwd when I pulled it, not sure if this same method can be used on 07 impreza, what do you do with your 2.5's
Nice vid!
in a live axle one wheel slips more than the other because the drive shaft torques the axle. If it spins right the right wheel dig more and the left slips
Wished we could see a torsen rear or center diff in action...
Just get a cheap B6 or B7 Audi quattro in your fleet. Those are great cars!
Hahah, i like how use the word cheap in there, maintenance would be epic fun as well
@@snape1464 you have a valid point. i think it still would be fine for their business as they really should have an inhouse service. anyway, this is just an assumption. maintenance on those cars would require a lot of labour which is expensive.
As for the parts, they should be able to get cheaper aftermarket alternatives, or even another car to salvage parts for the one being driven.
They have at least 2 old quattros
@@ianholmquist8492 That is great!
so if i have an open diff in the back would applying the handbrake a bit make both the wheels spin? and does that also count for the normal brakes in front?
Do you guys have any write ups or videos showing how you setup the wrx with the centre lock, ebrake and front diff ect. Really want to do this to my car, but not quite sure where to start.
Also deleting abs on these cars which fuse do you guys pull there is quite a few and I'm not sure if some are running other things as well
Ford traction control caused me to have a massive accident in a Ford Mondeo Mk1 ST24......I aquaplaned at 60mph on a country lane, I reacted quickly and saved it initially, dropped into 3rd gear and nailed the throttle to pull me out of the skid, traction control kicked in just like that transit and made the car essentially lift off oversteer off the road, massive accident , rolled 3 times and destroyed the car completely. That kind of traction control is DANGEROUS imho.
If I remember correctly that system lengthened the throttle cable / shortened dynamically based on the ABS wheel speed sensor difference, very crude, the irony was I always disabled that crap when driving "normally" because it would often give you a completely dead throttle pulling out of a wet junction of similar, again, very dangerous, sadly the TC always defaulted back to on when you started the engine, and on this occasion when I crashed I had forgotten to disable it.
What about a Toyota Camry Trd AWD 2021? Is it a great awd car and will it rally? And which car brands have reliable sedans w/ awd and possibly a lsd?
Thank you for this information keep moving
I have a 2000 subaru impreza. Can you do it with a 5 speed version? I would love to see how mine handles
Can you help with light braking if one wheel on your open diff is slipping? I have open diff fwd and i heard that some offroad guys use the brakes on difficult tracks.
so for 4wd vs awd, is the 4wd's transfer case like a welded center diff? why do you get spinning corners with 4wd and spinning same-sides with awd? (white jeep vs red subaru)
anyways turn on to my street when entering a residential street I always hit the all-wheel lock. I came to my alleyway which has had some melting going on in the last few days of snow yesterday. So little islands and slush. At the alleyway I had a big puddle deep etc. so i was already in the all-wheel lock and i pushed the button thinking i was turning it on. went forward left front wheel up on an island and the right front down at an angle now getting traction moving up a good incline both right and left front tires meet ice and snow at the top rear wheels to follow...then I realize I did not have the all-wheel lock on. It griped pretty well surprisingly. Curious is that thing? I like to think of the all-wheel lock bracing everything keeping everything tight. if i had the lock on would I have angled in the puddle as I did or would the four-wheel lock have kept up and found another way through?. I always feel like with the all-wheel lock-in that situation the vehicle has to twist more without the help of the all-wheel lock. Also, curious e traction control is that how I was able to ease through so well thinking that I had the lock on but the traction control actually giving torque to the rear anyway. Saw the jeep ch at the end there have an all wheel lock...like mine except as I explained mine was off when ''i thought it was on ....
One thing... Tires/suspension are the reason my open diff 3rd gen 4Runner is WAY better in snow than my VR4 (3k) with LSD. Tires/suspension matter a lot when the coefficient is bad.
exactly, a car can have 4WD or AWD and all the diff lockers or LSD's you want but if you use summer tires on a slippery icey road you will still not get traction. The single best investment is a set of tires that work for the surface you will drive on. Snow and ice? > winter tires , preferably with studs
Even a 2WD with open diff will do *much* better.
Totally agree about tires, they make more of a difference than anything. But suspension isn’t a factor when stopped , like in this video, or at very low speeds.
The Chevy Malibu traction control just bogs down the throttle until you're not spinning. Pretty lame on a hill.
Yeah we had to disable it on our rogue because we'd get stuck on our muddy roads during mud season
Don’t buy a Chevy.