There’s also another bit of foreshadowing, when they first walk into the practice room for the concert fletcher makes a threat regarding people leaving their folders lying around, fletcher took the folder
J Doggy Dog was looking for this comment! I think so too. It’s as if to teach Tanner/everyone a lesson to safeguard their folders if you don’t have it in your head already. The scene when they’re back in the class, the pianist even said “don’t touch my folder.” Lmaoo
It makes sense that fletcher takes it, it’s more how he takes it. Andrew is standing at the vending machine for like 5 seconds and it’s just gone, as if Andrew wouldn’t notice Fletcher taking the folder.
Fletcher warns something like “if I find any folders lying around I will end you” or whatever. He found Tanner’s folder lying around, he kicks Tanner out of his spot and gives it to Andrew. He ended Tanner’s career like he foreshadowed because the folder was Tanner’s responsibility
@@TheCeraization so that makes sense, doesn't it? The janitor worried about Fletcher throwing tantrum on him if there was any folder around again so he gotta take care of these.
I like the slightly dark implications of the ending. We’re being shown how Andrew succeeds through everything which is a nice feeling, but the ending also shows us that Fletcher’s abusive methods were indeed successful which brings him great joy.
More than this, it shows that after all Neiman has been through, he still needs Fletcher's approval and yearns for it. It's like manipulative relationships. Neiman ends up being dependant on Fletcher's approval to feel anything at all exactly because Fletcher was so abusive and made Neiman feel so worthless. After Fletcher tore down Neiman's self esteem, he is the only one who can give Neiman any feeling of worth. It's an incredibly dark and frankly outright haunting ending. And I don't see any other ending that would be more fitting.
Also, it helps Fletcher later on when Andrew tries to explain that he “earned” his position as core drummer, Fletcher responds with “You misplaced a folder”, meaning that Fletcher may have foreseen that Andrew would take ownership of his position and understand his ability compared to the other drummers and therefore, although Fletcher knows Andrew’s the best, in order to keep his leverage over Andrew he can’t simply promote him to core, thus validating Andrew’s skill and serving as a way of saying “Good Job”, going completely against Fletcher’s principles. Basically, Fletcher takes the folder, knowing full well that Andrew is the only drummer who can play without the sheet music, therefore giving him a reason to make him core without acknowledging Andrew superiority as a drummer.
Damn that makes so much sense and truly emphasizes how abusive and manipulative Fletcher is. He gets what he wants out if Andrew while discrediting his own skill/agency at the same time
@@Bread_Bug yep and by that way of doing, they never leave the cycle of abuse. Andrew gets the reward that makes him want more abuse. This film is an absolute masterclass to describe abusive relationship, in layered messages burried under a bright star. truly a sad film which look happy
I am from India. My dad doesn't know English and the movie wasn't available in any of our local language. But my father still watched the whole film, understood the film and was so satisfied that it has now become his fav movie.
That’s so interesting. Kind of in a way reminds me of how one of my favorite movies is the Brazilian classic “City of God” there is English subtitles though since they speak Portuguese.
Fletcher took it. To test the two. When he addresses them, Andrew is found to be the only one capable of playing without them. The test was mainly for Andrew though, to push him once again
From the time Andrew put the folder down to the time Carl walked up behind him, 10 seconds passed. Do you really believe Fletcher could SNEAK UP without anyone hearing or seeing him, grab the folder, and sneak away unnoticed? Please.
If you search up The Whiplash script there's actully a part where a stage hand returns the folder claiming a janitor must've threw it in the trash by accident. This wasn't shown in the movie but it was in the script
@@lamo88 lmao thats kinda dumb tho. while theres people holding folders all around. yes lets just pick this one up and throw it in the trash. glad they took that out.
You could have also mentioned the part where "mini me" is lurking behind Fletcher looking nervous. I assumed Fletcher had given that assistant some instruction that the assistant felt very uncomfortable with completing. "Mini me" took the folder as instructed by Fletcher.
Fletcher said "If I find another one of these I SWEAR TO FUCK" before the group was broke up into groups to recap on the notes. Fletcher purposely took the folder to test Andrew because he knew the other drummer wouldn't remember the notes.
What janitor in their right mind - with two people standing next to the chair - would swipe an important looking folder off a chair, in the middle of a concert? If I was a janitor, the first thing I would do is tap Andrew on the shoulder .. "this belong to you?" You would do the obvious thing before taking it to the lost property box.
I'm gonna debunk this theory by Fletcher's genuine reaction to being told he lost the folder. His reaction leaves no indication that he took it. Besides the fact that Fletcher didn't seem to leave the practice room at all.
Fletcher never really needed a reason to mix things up in "his band". I don't see a reason for him to swipe the folder unless he was trying to push Tanner. I do think there's a possibility that one of the other bands swiped it or fletcher did it to push Tanner.
Fletcher is willing to look like a fool to humiliate/ruin(/push?) Andrew. this is not during a collegiate performance either. This is during what is made to seem like the biggest gig Fletcher has ever had. Yes I think he's willing to lose/take the hit personally in order to push Andrew (or anybody he recognizes as having the potential). One could say that Fletcher treats himself highly similarly to how he treats the young prodigies, or hopeful prodigies. He is clearly troubled by the death of his former student. He knows the risks he's taking through his methods.
I think everyone is forgetting that if Fletcher did in fact take the folder, and Andrew said he couldn't play the part then Fletcher could have just given the folder to the original drummer since it was in his possession. There was really almost no risk to Fletcher in this scenario.
And that's why Fletcher continues to mock Tanner's "medical excuse" comparing him to Sanjay Gupta? The fact that Tanner says "you know this" doesn't prove anything. This is a kid whose confidence is completely in the basement, trying desperately to avoid having to get back on stage and potentially screw-up. All the prior scenes make a point of showing Tanner's destroyed confidence.
I actually believe that the importance of this moment is not giving the audience the answer to the question "who took the folder" is to give us the perception of how powerless the artists in that band were. Fletcher had them all in his hand and he would do whatever he wanted with them. No matter how hard they worked, they could be the core drummer in one second, and in the other one, they could easily be out of the band.
The fletcher theory works because then he's able to make andrew the drummer without andrew knowing, thus continuing to keep him on his toes and not have him feel like he's getting an "at-a-boy."
If Fletcher wanted Andrew to play the next set, he would have simply done so. That's Fletcher's style. He doesn't need to concoct some elaborate scheme to justify his decision. That's not the way Fletcher rules his band.
@@djbenje4019 I’m pretty sure Fletcher wanted to get rid of tanner, and Andrew was the replacement. But as he says, he doesn’t like to say good job, so this theory works. Also, Fletcher seems kinda happy when Andrew asks about Tanner and Fletcher basically says “he couldn’t cut it”
A lot of people think Whiplash is about a perseverance and ambition, but it’s really about the personal sacrifice of the characters that’s the consequence of their ambitions. We’re meant to reflect and ask ourselves, would we do anything it takes to achieve greatness if it meant we would turn into awful human beings because of it? Fletcher faces this dilemma head-on when he learns of a former student’s suicide, knowing full well that his abuse was what created the student’s distress. Andrew meanwhile has complete tunnel vision, and can’t see that his drive is deteriorating the other facets of his life, and he eventually just decides that he doesn’t need friends or relationships as long as he has his drums.
Hi bro, I found your comment is relevant with the movie. Love it. Anyway, the last sentence applies to our greatest guitarist in the the music history; Allan Holdsworth. You will be fascinated if you read his story and music. Thanks.
2:50 I feel like you missed the real message of this movie. It's not about determination or not getting discouraged, it's about obsession and self destruction. The whole movie we see Neiman destroying himself and his relationships to be perfect for Fletcher. Fletcher tells us a story of a previous student who committed suicide, and who was also subject to Fletcher's insane teacher methods. In the moment where he turns around to go back on stage we are meant to understand that Neiman is walking the same path. He may achieve greatness for a short time, but the audience knows it will come with a heavy price. If you walk out of this movie believing it was all worth it because Neiman rocks a solo, you are Fletcher.
I think it's both actually. To some, the high of that peak is the only thing that matters. Nothing else will satisfy them. Should they simply ignore their calling? Should people who could otherwise live a normal, non obsessed life be held to the same standard? It's hard to say. To some, their art means everything, a fact which cannot change. To some they are pressured into making it their life. It just depends on the situation. Neuman knew what he wanted. He understood the risks and took the leap anyways. I don't think whiplash is trying to push a message down your throat, despite the extreme theatrics of the characters (specifically one character). It's simply demonstrating the raw, uncensored nature of ambitious drive and its impact on one's life. Whether that's negative or not is for you to decide individually. Do you want to defeat the dragon and claim his meager treasure, having lost more then you could have ever gained in the process, or would you rather live a comfortable life, always wondering what could have been?
I always thought fletcher took the folder, but I didn’t pick up on the “you know this” clue. It just seemed like the two students had too much invested to mess with that folder. I thought it was Fletcher because he had that foreshadowing warning “if I see one of these laying around….” It was like he was daring then to leave it behind and test him.
This is the answer. There is not much discussion here. 1. Fletcher right before this scene said to not leave the folder lying around 2. Fletcher wanted to push Andrew to be a great drummer
Fletcher couldnt have known that that drummer would give the folder to neeman and he absolutely couldnt have known that neeman would put it on the chair and walk off.
I LOVE the mystery of it because there are so many times in life where you just put something down and never see it again. It is a very empathetic moment.
This is the comment I was going to make if no-one else did. I totally agree. The scene doesn't have to make sense, because losing things often doesn't make sense. We think back, we go over the events in our memory, and we say, "I have no idea how that happened." That's the sensation that this scene tries to capture.
One of my favorite films of all time. Fletcher definitely took the folder. It's important that it's never acknowledged because, without doubt, these manipulative characters don't work. If it is known for sure Fletcher has malicious intent, none of those students would have endured the abuse. Fletcher gives Andrew a chance while simultaneously ostracizing him from the rest of the band (after this scene, everyone else is wary of him, saying, "don't touch my folder"). Now, Andrew appreciates the opportunity given to him by Fletcher but also can only turn to Fletcher for support. He is forced to work harder because he now *needs* Fletcher's approval, for he won't get anyone else's.
Fletcher took it. While Andrew is turning pages, we see that the drum part for "Upswingin" is in the folder. When fletcher gives Andrew a folder of music for the end concert, It contains all the charts that were in the original folder except "Upswingin"
I think this is one of the best movies in a decade. Fletcher did take the music. When he gives Andrew the wrong sheet music in the club, it shows the exact sheet that was stolen in the first place. Fletcher knew he was the better drummer. You even show the proof in this video, but didn’t mention it.
Imagine if they found out at the end of the movie that JK Simmons actually never worked at the academy but was just a crazy homeless guy with no understanding of music at all ... he just enjoyed hurling shit and cursing at the musicians while yelling not my tempo ...
I think at this stage fletcher just wanted to get rid of the guy who couldn't play without the folder. He knew that guy wasn't going to be the next big star, which was fletcher's dream.
That 100% seems like something he'd do. As if he'd been putting up with Tanner because he was just good enough till Andrew came along and DIDN'T have to rely entirely on the book. Fletcher saw it as a test for both, mostly Andrew. He'd create a situation where a lost folder would determine if one or both would crash and burn. Andrew seized the opportunity, as I'm sure Fletcher wanted, and got the part.
It seems pretty damn clear to me that it was Andrew's alternate personality, Phillip, who had been trying to sabotage his drum career because of his chronic migraine problems.
I agree. No one ever talks about him! He's the driving force of the film! He's the one who got Fletcher canned and was finally happy having finally gotten Andrew to stop playing those damned drums!
I disagree. For academic purposes and for use of study with regards to the plot...there is no need for profanity. It's a piece of entertainment .not the end of the world if someone choooses to block it out...
The only logical explanation is that Tanner took the folder. The folder disappears within like 5 seconds. Unless Fletcher is Batman, there was no time for him to swoop in without being heard or seen by both Andrew AND Tanner. Besides that, I’m sure he had better things to do to prep for the show. Tanner walks up behind Andrew and therefore would have had the folder in his line of sight the whole time. The amount of time that passes between Andrew placing the folder down and Tanner asking Andrew for the folder fully supports the idea that Tanner saw the folder on the chair, tucked it into the back of his pants or into his jacket, and proceeded to blame Andrew. Why would Tanner do this? He is miserable, but he doesn’t want to quit. He wanted to get Fletcher to kick him out so he wouldn’t seem like a failure for quitting all on his own and appear weak. Andrew is not the only victim of Fletcher’s abuse. Andrew is not the only one who feels like they have to carry the weight of the world to get approval from his family. We know that if you play for Fletcher, you are a victim of abuse, and you are driven by perfection and approval from others. Tanner is clearly miserable the whole movie, and I believe Tanner has been wanting to get out of Fletcher’s grasp for a long time, but couldn’t find a good enough way to do it until this opportunity came up. He knows Fletcher will end anyone who leaves folders lying around. So, he gave the folder to Andrew anticipating he’d be dumb enough to leave it laying around even though he is fully capable of handling the folder himself. Why would he trust the new guy with his entire career? It’s just a folder. He kept an eye on Andrew to see if he would place the folder down. He did, and Tanner took his opportunity. He knew Fletcher would blame him for giving the folder to Andrew and had no hesitation explaining the situation to Fletcher. In fact, it seemed like he had rehearsed his explanation quite well. I think by this point, Tanner knew that Andrew was good enough to play by heart and knew that Andrew would be able to volunteer himself in Tanner’s place. It was the perfect opportunity for Tanner to get out without looking like a total failure or a bad drummer. Andrew had already shown he was subject to manipulation and Tanner had no problem teeing up an opportunity for Andrew that he was sure to take. Of course, Tanner had to sell it and appear very angry that his drumming career is at risk, and did a good job of that by yelling at Andrew. I believe the only possible person who could have taken the folder was Tanner. We just needed to know why, and above are the reasons that I think Tanner would be motivated to do it. Thoughts?
Old video I know but I just watched this movie last night. I would also have thought that fletcher takes the folder as it would make the most sense but the scene makes it look as if the folder is missing seconds after it is put down on the chair which makes no sense as to how andrew didnt notice fletcher come by and take it
True. I think one of the things that makes Whiplash so great is that it leaves us with unanswered questions. A lot of films these days tell the audience everything. Sometimes it's great to leave room for speculation.
I would argue that this scene is the only sub par scene in the film precisely because it tells us, through heavy handed execution, that that fucking folder is a goner. Why else show a close up of the folder being placed on the chair? Anyway, the rest of the film is so bold and so show-y that this particular shot reeeeeaaally disappointed me. Having said all of that, I suppose you might be raising an important question. Honestly I didn't think it really mattered. I think because of the hype/tension that had been built up to this point we were just supposed to roll with this unfortunate event. I do like your theory though. Perhaps the tellyness of this scene is what pushes people to want to know so badly, as if the folder has more importance than just being a plot device.... yet another consequence of telling and not showing, emphasizing the wrong things and ultimately confusing the audience's priorities. I could be wrong in this case, but if you've watched it a bunch and are only aware of the hints you've cited in this video, I truly don't think the writers wanted to leave us guessing. I think it was just a dumb decision in an otherwise jaw dropping film.
+Jordan Thompson I think you're reading too much into it. It's simple as fuck. The close-up of the folder is just reminding us he's in charge of it and he put it down for a second. In the script a janitor took it but in the final edit it's ambiguous. Why? Mostly because it doesn't matter and probably because Chazelle realized its more interesting to leave it at sabotage vs. accident.
What I love about that scene is that it feels real, real in the way Andrew felt it or remember it. Also whiplash it gives you the feeling of watching jazz in real life. Damian is a genius
One of my favourite films: perfectly shows competitive drive to achieve greatness, and the cost of pushing yourself to the limit. Contrasts this with our current understanding of abuse in a very interesting way that challenges where healthy challenges end and abuse begins. I've been abused and I'm also an extraordinairily competitive person. For me this film really shows just how hard you can go to try to achieve some of these things. I would have wanted a coach like that to push me. But I don't know if I'd be comfortable with a coach like that with someone else. I guess it depends heavily on who can take it? Who does it help and who does it destroy?
I would suggest that WHO took the folder is actually irrelevant. It's more about Fletcher's ability to manipulate situations and maintain a state of uncertainty as a way of controlling the players on the band - and it also gives him power. Whether he took it or not - does not matter; he can eject, replace, and trade players as he wants, whenever he wants. SO - even if we know who took it - it does not really matter. It's part of storytelling, suspense, unpredictability. While at the very end Fletcher is seen as a master manipulator (offering Andrew chance to play with him after he was fired) - he is only reactive to circumstances rather than be a master plotter before hand.
I think it's scary that someone can take the life lesson of "don't let discouragement stop you from greatness" away from this movie. I felt like it was more of a cautionary tale and look into abusive relationships. Romantic platonic, familial, all of it. It's horrible to see Andrew fight so hard and take so much abuse for just that smile and nod at the end. That wasn't Fletcher being proud of Andrew. That was Fletcher being satisfied with himself that his horrific mentoring style "works" once again. Showing the cycle of abuse and how Andrew is goaded into repeating the cycle once again.
This movie reminded me of an abusive relationship, and tough love. The victim knows they are in deep, but feel like it's too late to quit, past the point of no return. This way is the only way to happiness. If they can make it through the rough times there life will be great later. The difference is Fletcher had an end game while an abusive partner usually doesn't stop escalating until one of them leaves or is killed. Great movie, the drumming was amazing!! Also, I thought Fletcher took the folder as well.
Andrew has the power to leave and has no obligation to fletcher if he did he wouldn't have gotten him fired, everything Andrew does is for himself not fletcher that's why he doesn't quit at the end which is what fletcher wants, payback, but Andrew says screw you I am the best. You see the same thing in many special warfare candidates. Same treatment same attitude
The ending you interpreted was good but it's better if you think it like this. Andrew has been humiliated after all this. He doesn't care about music anymore he feels like he needs to have Fletcher's opinion. So he goes back up and plays. No going back. He's not healthy. He's past the point of return. The guy that died around half way through the movie killed himself because of fletcher. Fletcher wasn't crying cause he loved him. It's because he lost his player. So he decides "alright this guy Andrew is my new best player." I think Andrew will end up how his dad said he would Pumped full of heroin in his 30s and die. Whiplash.
I think you're right, actually in this regard I feel like this movie and "Born to be blue" (fiction-documentary about Chet Baker) have at least this theme in common: jazz (or art in general) will destroy you, and that's the price to pay. I think it's utterly devastating for the audience to see these characters (andrew, or chet baker) destroy themselves for something far greater than them, but at the same time we understand their motives. They're ok with losing everything for the music, because music is that important. That's not a sweet hollywood movie, where everyone is healthy, it's about how the music itself can be abusive: of course Fletcher is an a-hole, but in the end he pushes Andrew to become a great musician.
jasperhalsey pay close attention to the last few shots of the movie. The scene has Andrew, after playing his heart out with an amazing solo, stop and look at Fletcher. But the look in his eyes and expression on his face tells the audience that he is waiting on Fletcher's response. Then when we get a close up of fletcher he is smiling and nodding at Andrew, almost saying "you did it, I'm proud", but in reality he's most likely thinking "I did it, I made him this". Either way the next shot is Andrew finally showing relief and excitement after getting Fletcher's approval. This scene wasn't about the audience in the auditorium or Andrew proving anything to himself. The scene is about someone who was abused giving in to their abuser and validating the abusers methods. That's why the last shot we see of his father isn't him looking proud of what his son has just accomplished (standing up for himself), but horrified because he knows he just lost his son
So you like things bullies yell at you ? I understand one can enjoy the movie, but make it a favorite, no sorry I don't get the point. This film is the complete apologia of wickedness, until the very last second with this arrogant smile, how in the world would you support that ?
You forgot to take in the scene at the bar where Fletcher is playing the piano as evidence. Fletcher is fast like a damned bullet, Andrew barely turns his head after getting noticed and Fletcher was already on his back. In the scene where the folder is lost there was -no time- the only one fast enough to pull that off and go unnoticed and unquestioned would be him.
This also parallels the scene where he kicks out the kid for not knowing if he was out of tune. He sets up musicians, and their inability to react (in this case, take care of your sheet music or know it by heart) costs them. It’s consistent with deception he’s used in the past. Definitely think that this is the most likely answer.
May be a bit late, but I just want to make sure that none of us forgot that Fletcher said himself that he "TRIED" to make some of his students into the next Charlie Parker. Maybe the mysterious disappearance of the folder was a test for both Andrew AND Tanner? Seeing who would prevail?
I also arrived at the consclusion that it was Fletcher, someone might say why would Fletcher do this when he can just replace Tanner and put Neiman in his place, it's not like this is the worst thing he has done so far, and by Fletcher's unusual standards it seems like normal behaviour. I think he did that because he always wanted Neiman to know that he got that part by "accident" and that he became a core member because of a missing folder not because he was actually that good (which he actually says to Andrew later in the movie), that would instill the insecurity he already planted into Neiman, this is also the reason he brings Connolly to replace Neiman.
Fletcher took it as another manipulative tactic. He said right before they left the room not to leave the folders anywhere. He knew Andrew would be a space cadet and put it down.
Fletcher looked his whole life for someone who could take the abuse and succeed. I think his tears at his former student's death were more of he thought he found the "one" and he died. He's crying more at his personal failure than from grief. He absolutely took the folder and Andrew kept rising to Fletcher's manipulation in each successive pitfall after this happened. He didn't want to turn in Fletcher, but conceded to pressure. I think Fletcher catches on to this after Andrew stays and keeps trying to perform despite the sabotage at the final concert. Fletcher is enraptured for real at the end because he finally found his Bird. This film is so damn good.
Awesome analysis but it seems like when Fletcher yells for Tanner he seems that he is already far distance away when it had only been seconds. BUT Fletcher still could have gotten someone else to take the folder with the same motive. My guess= Mini-me. Short before the folder loosing scene he yells at a sound coordinator: "Get the fuck out of my sight before I demolish you!" then, "I CAN STILL FUCKING SEE YOU MINIME!!" Seems like he treats him like a tool to begin with and who to steal a folder from someone better that the short, swift mini-me!! It was Mini-me all along!!
PROOF THAT FLETCHER TOOK THE FOLDER: Tanner's charts are the charts that Fletcher gives to Nieman at the end of the film. Whiplash is currently on Netflix, and I'm using the 'time remaining' time stamps. If you go frame by frame (because it's fast) and pause it at 1:28:51 remaining in the film (approximately 17:55 into the film), you'll see Tanner flipping through HIS CHARTS to find Whiplash. These are HIS drum charts and HE"S ANNOTATED them circling and adding brackets to specific parts of the music. These are his personal, hand written marks. Pause it again with 17:58 remaining in the film (approximately 1:28:48 into the film) when Andrew starts to look for "Up Swinging" on his stand. We see "Whiplash" and the marks are exactly the same as those from Tanner's earlier. These are Tanner's drum charts with HIS personal markings on them. They were given to Nieman by Fletcher. Fletcher would not have Tanner's charts unless he was the one that took Tanner's folder.
And the fact that the scenes showing this detail are mirrored if you watch the film in reverse and forwards simultaneously a la Kubrick, proves the directors intent. Thanks for the timestamps demonstrating this detail
100% agree with your thoughts on the movie. It really fits into the character of Fletcher to do it and reinforces the way andrew had felt uptil then - toyed with basically.
You say the end of the movie is positive and shows Andrew overcoming adversity and becoming something special. I believe it's something completely different. It shows that Fletcher did in fact take control of Andrew, and although hes doing something incredible, he's doing it because of Fletcher's manipulation. The end of the movie is pretty dark imo, full of unhealthy habits being left untreated, but that's what a lot of talented artists are.
Positive for them in a way, but Andrew's dad watching from the outside is horrified. He recognizes the abuse for what it is and sees how much control Fletcher has over his son.
I think Fletcher secretly his the folder because he knew he wanted to push Andrew to become the best but he needed an excuse to make the lesser drummer to feel like an idiot, hence to give Andrew the extra edge when the time comes to prove himself.
I don't think he needed an excuse. If he really wanted Andrew as the core drummer, he would've just done it. I personally think Tanner took it, he could've faked the reaction.
Charlie Pekin Why would Tanner take it though? There's no winning for him in this situation. Assume he wanted Andrew to get fucked to secure his own position as a core drummer. Assume that it all goes according to plan and Andrew gets all the shit from Fletcher for loosing the folder. What's the next step? Tanner can't play without his sheets, that has been made very clear, and he can't just whip them out like nothing happened either, this shit wouldn't go unnoticed. So even in this situation he's in a pretty bad position and ends up fucking himself over. It just doesn't make much sense for Tanner to do it.
Charlie Pekin Fletcher couldn't had told Andrew that he got a part because Andrew would have gotten too comfortable. He wanted Andrew to get the part as a result of random circumstances.
I always suspected that Fletcher took it. He wanted to see Andrew in the seat, but couldn’t say “good job, you got the part.” He had to take someone else down to keep his reign of terror going.
It was Fletcher. I watched the movie last night and at the scene before the first competition, where Fletcher tells to the musicians (I don't remember the exact line) that if he finds another rogue file he will take it. I hope you did remember the scene. I tried my best to explain that :D
@Existential Delight - Watch the movie.... at 17:56 when Andrew first joins and someone says Milk the **** then Fletcher says whiplash, Tanner turns his own music sheets and for a brief moment it flashes the sheet music. If you look, the markings on the pages (visual cues) are the same exact markings that are on the sheet music at Andrew's final performance. It's the same folder. Fletcher took it and the proof is right there.
The "You know this" clue was a good point. But knowing Andrew's personality, and the way he reacted while Tanner was having a meltdown, I think Andrew purposely "lost" the folder as a power-play, knowing he could play the song from memory but Tanner couldn't. Andrew was as ruthless as Fletcher in his pursuit of his goal.
I think it actually is plausible that Andrew hid the folder. He's shown to be jealous throughout the film, even blowing up on Fletcher when he shows up late to the recital, and considering this other drummer was never too nice to him to begin with, AND he has Whiplash memorized already, shown in the scene following the folder being lost. Your theory does make more sense than mine, I think, but I kind of like how he left it ambiguous. The characters are written so well that it could go either way.
Andrew didn't know about the drummer's condition so it is unlikely he would take it. The other guy knew that without the folder he would not be able to play because he needs visual cues. So out of the three of them it is almost certain that Fletcher was the one to take it. However I think his shoes made a lot of noise and echoed in those corridors so I don't understand how he would take it without being noticed.
You are wrong. The folder was taken by a Janitor who threw it in the trash can by accident. Read the screenplay of Whiplash, PAGE 47, SCENE 46A. It's written there.
So in the official screen play after they win the overbrook competition at the dunellen auditorium a stage hand hands the folder to carl saying a janitor might have thrown it into the dustbin.
Plot twist: Fletcher needed it because it contained new pictures of Spiderman
I am the Spider Man
Lol it took me 1.50 seconds to get that joke.
omg is him lol
HAHAHAHAHAH too funny!! lol
XD
There’s also another bit of foreshadowing, when they first walk into the practice room for the concert fletcher makes a threat regarding people leaving their folders lying around, fletcher took the folder
J Doggy Dog was looking for this comment! I think so too. It’s as if to teach Tanner/everyone a lesson to safeguard their folders if you don’t have it in your head already. The scene when they’re back in the class, the pianist even said “don’t touch my folder.” Lmaoo
Play_Calialy saxophonist*
It makes sense that fletcher takes it, it’s more how he takes it. Andrew is standing at the vending machine for like 5 seconds and it’s just gone, as if Andrew wouldn’t notice Fletcher taking the folder.
exactly
the folder was the same folder fletcher gave to andrew in the end, fletcher took the folder
My theory: the folder actually decided to get up and walk away.
😂😂😂
Shhhhh
That folder said: When there’s too much drama at school, all you gotta do is wAaLk aWayYiiyiiyi
My childhood, everytime something went missing. "Well it just get up and walk away" maybe it did grow legs!, damn it!
This gave me ptsd from high school band, my teacher would yell this exact thing at kids that lost their folders all the time
Fletcher warns something like “if I find any folders lying around I will end you” or whatever. He found Tanner’s folder lying around, he kicks Tanner out of his spot and gives it to Andrew. He ended Tanner’s career like he foreshadowed because the folder was Tanner’s responsibility
Nah, it's just the janitor as Fletcher scared the shit out of him while mentioning about the folders and he didn't want to be blamed.
Tung Nguyen but Fletcher said that to him prior to Andrew losing the folder.
@@TheCeraization so that makes sense, doesn't it? The janitor worried about Fletcher throwing tantrum on him if there was any folder around again so he gotta take care of these.
doesnt that also justify the idea that andrew took the folder? because he knew that he would gain the spot, if Tanner is removed
Not the right line, sport.
I like the slightly dark implications of the ending. We’re being shown how Andrew succeeds through everything which is a nice feeling, but the ending also shows us that Fletcher’s abusive methods were indeed successful which brings him great joy.
Well according to the director, Andrew would have a bad end in his life and Fletcher would mock him at his funeral
More than this, it shows that after all Neiman has been through, he still needs Fletcher's approval and yearns for it. It's like manipulative relationships. Neiman ends up being dependant on Fletcher's approval to feel anything at all exactly because Fletcher was so abusive and made Neiman feel so worthless. After Fletcher tore down Neiman's self esteem, he is the only one who can give Neiman any feeling of worth.
It's an incredibly dark and frankly outright haunting ending. And I don't see any other ending that would be more fitting.
@@SaltedroastedcaramelWouldnt Fletcher die before Andrew 😂
@@ivyart3737 Andrew dies in his thirties so that depends on how Fletcher keeps his health well.
@@Saltedroastedcaramel Andrew died in his 30s? when did that happen?
We all wanted Andrew to get the part. We stole the file.
*_*cue the Soviet anthem*_*
@@Wired4Life2 😂😂😂
Also I think the “lost” folder is the same one that he gives Andrew at the end.
Woahhh😳 wait this might be true.
@@SanaKhan-fh7ff it is
Wait, you’re onto something.
It is. Prowling monkey prove this in his channel.
Might actually be true.
He’s telling Andrew "I helped you all those times and you betrayed me"
What if the folder he gave andrew at the end to sabotage him, was the folder fletcher stole.
Dean David shit you realized as well
Ooooooo
NOOO!!! THE REALIZATION AND THE CALLBACK TO HOW NEMAN GOT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACR
Damn that's ...woah !!!
Dean David Okay...what if? No, seriously, what does that change?
The fact that Fletcher reacts so calmly when told they lost the folder is the dead giveaway. Everything is going as planned, he took the folder.
Also, it helps Fletcher later on when Andrew tries to explain that he “earned” his position as core drummer, Fletcher responds with “You misplaced a folder”, meaning that Fletcher may have foreseen that Andrew would take ownership of his position and understand his ability compared to the other drummers and therefore, although Fletcher knows Andrew’s the best, in order to keep his leverage over Andrew he can’t simply promote him to core, thus validating Andrew’s skill and serving as a way of saying “Good Job”, going completely against Fletcher’s principles. Basically, Fletcher takes the folder, knowing full well that Andrew is the only drummer who can play without the sheet music, therefore giving him a reason to make him core without acknowledging Andrew superiority as a drummer.
yoo that makes so much sense, amazing
succinctly put :)
Damn that makes so much sense and truly emphasizes how abusive and manipulative Fletcher is. He gets what he wants out if Andrew while discrediting his own skill/agency at the same time
Well said
@@Bread_Bug yep and by that way of doing, they never leave the cycle of abuse. Andrew gets the reward that makes him want more abuse.
This film is an absolute masterclass to describe abusive relationship, in layered messages burried under a bright star. truly a sad film which look happy
Here’s my theory:
A janitor must have come by
There is no janitor in the world that picks up a loose folder on the chair in a school.
I’m dead af right now
@Chic 'N' Stu okay, okay. Sorry
Apparently an earlier draft of the script did actually had a janitor plotline.
😂😂😂😂
Fletcher WAS the janitor!
YOU'RE A DUMB FUCK, A DUMB FUCK
Finkle IS Einhorn
Oh THEN WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU SAY SO!!!!!!!
Apprentice janitor: washes window
Fletcher: "...not my tempo"
His name is Mr clean
I am from India. My dad doesn't know English and the movie wasn't available in any of our local language. But my father still watched the whole film, understood the film and was so satisfied that it has now become his fav movie.
I love that hahaha, My people do that too
That’s so interesting. Kind of in a way reminds me of how one of my favorite movies is the Brazilian classic “City of God” there is English subtitles though since they speak Portuguese.
does he beat you?
@@jeremysteele3098 wtf 😭
@@jeremysteele3098💀
Fletcher took it. To test the two. When he addresses them, Andrew is found to be the only one capable of playing without them. The test was mainly for Andrew though, to push him once again
From the time Andrew put the folder down to the time Carl walked up behind him, 10 seconds passed. Do you really believe Fletcher could SNEAK UP without anyone hearing or seeing him, grab the folder, and sneak away unnoticed? Please.
@@djbenje4019 yes absolutely, you saw how he teleported from his seat at the piano to greet Andrew lol
@@djbenje4019 in the time SOMEONE had to move it yes?
If you search up The Whiplash script there's actully a part where a stage hand returns the folder claiming a janitor must've threw it in the trash by accident. This wasn't shown in the movie but it was in the script
@@lamo88 lmao thats kinda dumb tho.
while theres people holding folders all around. yes lets just pick this one up and throw it in the trash.
glad they took that out.
You could have also mentioned the part where "mini me" is lurking behind Fletcher looking nervous. I assumed Fletcher had given that assistant some instruction that the assistant felt very uncomfortable with completing. "Mini me" took the folder as instructed by Fletcher.
Most underrated comment!
interesting theory
i love this theory, I’m going to chose to believe it in my own mind
The so-called "Mini me" looks like a Caucasian leprechaun.
😳
Disliked, not my tempo
@@mattjindrak best comment here
Not _quite_ my tempo, one more time
Do you want big boy tempo?
@@ninjamantis8309 you have bad taste
@@vwlz8637 In women yes, in movies no
Fletcher said "If I find another one of these I SWEAR TO FUCK" before the group was broke up into groups to recap on the notes. Fletcher purposely took the folder to test Andrew because he knew the other drummer wouldn't remember the notes.
What janitor in their right mind - with two people standing next to the chair - would swipe an important looking folder off a chair, in the middle of a concert?
If I was a janitor, the first thing I would do is tap Andrew on the shoulder .. "this belong to you?"
You would do the obvious thing before taking it to the lost property box.
I'm gonna debunk this theory by Fletcher's genuine reaction to being told he lost the folder. His reaction leaves no indication that he took it. Besides the fact that Fletcher didn't seem to leave the practice room at all.
Fletcher never really needed a reason to mix things up in "his band". I don't see a reason for him to swipe the folder unless he was trying to push Tanner. I do think there's a possibility that one of the other bands swiped it or fletcher did it to push Tanner.
Fletcher is willing to look like a fool to humiliate/ruin(/push?) Andrew. this is not during a collegiate performance either. This is during what is made to seem like the biggest gig Fletcher has ever had.
Yes I think he's willing to lose/take the hit personally in order to push Andrew (or anybody he recognizes as having the potential). One could say that Fletcher treats himself highly similarly to how he treats the young prodigies, or hopeful prodigies. He is clearly troubled by the death of his former student. He knows the risks he's taking through his methods.
I think everyone is forgetting that if Fletcher did in fact take the folder, and Andrew said he couldn't play the part then Fletcher could have just given the folder to the original drummer since it was in his possession. There was really almost no risk to Fletcher in this scenario.
"You know this" is what really sells your theory to me.
And that's why Fletcher continues to mock Tanner's "medical excuse" comparing him to Sanjay Gupta? The fact that Tanner says "you know this" doesn't prove anything. This is a kid whose confidence is completely in the basement, trying desperately to avoid having to get back on stage and potentially screw-up. All the prior scenes make a point of showing Tanner's destroyed confidence.
If Gordon Ramsay became a music teacher, this would be him.
If you ever played competitive sport, you’ll find coaches like fletcher
Gordon mostly appears as a hardass, unlike Fletcher who's a straight up crazy dude who will abuse his students
so true🤣
Gordon is actually nice in real life.
It's RAAAAAW. It's fucking RAAAAAW!
I actually believe that the importance of this moment is not giving the audience the answer to the question "who took the folder" is to give us the perception of how powerless the artists in that band were. Fletcher had them all in his hand and he would do whatever he wanted with them. No matter how hard they worked, they could be the core drummer in one second, and in the other one, they could easily be out of the band.
The fletcher theory works because then he's able to make andrew the drummer without andrew knowing, thus continuing to keep him on his toes and not have him feel like he's getting an "at-a-boy."
That's exactly what I thought too
If Fletcher wanted Andrew to play the next set, he would have simply done so. That's Fletcher's style. He doesn't need to concoct some elaborate scheme to justify his decision. That's not the way Fletcher rules his band.
@@djbenje4019 I’m pretty sure Fletcher wanted to get rid of tanner, and Andrew was the replacement. But as he says, he doesn’t like to say good job, so this theory works. Also, Fletcher seems kinda happy when Andrew asks about Tanner and Fletcher basically says “he couldn’t cut it”
A lot of people think Whiplash is about a perseverance and ambition, but it’s really about the personal sacrifice of the characters that’s the consequence of their ambitions. We’re meant to reflect and ask ourselves, would we do anything it takes to achieve greatness if it meant we would turn into awful human beings because of it? Fletcher faces this dilemma head-on when he learns of a former student’s suicide, knowing full well that his abuse was what created the student’s distress. Andrew meanwhile has complete tunnel vision, and can’t see that his drive is deteriorating the other facets of his life, and he eventually just decides that he doesn’t need friends or relationships as long as he has his drums.
Hi bro, I found your comment is relevant with the movie. Love it. Anyway, the last sentence applies to our greatest guitarist in the the music history; Allan Holdsworth. You will be fascinated if you read his story and music. Thanks.
sooo fckinh true. well said.
ues, yes, this!
also just wanna say, andrew’s dad expression at the end isn’t admiration but fear
fear that he just lost his son
Worked for Buddy Rich.
me personally i would've beat the shit out of fletcher
My favorite part is when Mr Fantastic breaks up with Supergirl
+Joseph Nicholson Me too
Just so he could satisfy J. Jonah Jameson :P
oMF HAHAHAHAHAHA
Nah, my favorite part was when Thanos did a Fortnite dance near Dash's deceased corpse.
Wha-
2:50 I feel like you missed the real message of this movie. It's not about determination or not getting discouraged, it's about obsession and self destruction. The whole movie we see Neiman destroying himself and his relationships to be perfect for Fletcher. Fletcher tells us a story of a previous student who committed suicide, and who was also subject to Fletcher's insane teacher methods. In the moment where he turns around to go back on stage we are meant to understand that Neiman is walking the same path. He may achieve greatness for a short time, but the audience knows it will come with a heavy price. If you walk out of this movie believing it was all worth it because Neiman rocks a solo, you are Fletcher.
I think it's both actually. To some, the high of that peak is the only thing that matters. Nothing else will satisfy them. Should they simply ignore their calling? Should people who could otherwise live a normal, non obsessed life be held to the same standard? It's hard to say. To some, their art means everything, a fact which cannot change. To some they are pressured into making it their life. It just depends on the situation. Neuman knew what he wanted. He understood the risks and took the leap anyways. I don't think whiplash is trying to push a message down your throat, despite the extreme theatrics of the characters (specifically one character). It's simply demonstrating the raw, uncensored nature of ambitious drive and its impact on one's life. Whether that's negative or not is for you to decide individually. Do you want to defeat the dragon and claim his meager treasure, having lost more then you could have ever gained in the process, or would you rather live a comfortable life, always wondering what could have been?
I always thought fletcher took the folder, but I didn’t pick up on the “you know this” clue. It just seemed like the two students had too much invested to mess with that folder. I thought it was Fletcher because he had that foreshadowing warning “if I see one of these laying around….” It was like he was daring then to leave it behind and test him.
This is the answer. There is not much discussion here.
1. Fletcher right before this scene said to not leave the folder lying around
2. Fletcher wanted to push Andrew to be a great drummer
mabye fletcher hired the janitor to take the folder
You just blew my mind.
Akeem Oviahon I mean this is only accounting for the very specific circumstance that Andrew would put the folder down.
Akeem Oviahon ahhahahahaha
A fucking janitor?!
Fletcher couldnt have known that that drummer would give the folder to neeman and he absolutely couldnt have known that neeman would put it on the chair and walk off.
I LOVE the mystery of it because there are so many times in life where you just put something down and never see it again. It is a very empathetic moment.
This is the comment I was going to make if no-one else did. I totally agree. The scene doesn't have to make sense, because losing things often doesn't make sense. We think back, we go over the events in our memory, and we say, "I have no idea how that happened." That's the sensation that this scene tries to capture.
yeah i cant remember the countless times i lost something even though i remember where i kept it last
I usually look to the person who was closest to me/it... Tanner.
One of my favorite films of all time. Fletcher definitely took the folder. It's important that it's never acknowledged because, without doubt, these manipulative characters don't work. If it is known for sure Fletcher has malicious intent, none of those students would have endured the abuse. Fletcher gives Andrew a chance while simultaneously ostracizing him from the rest of the band (after this scene, everyone else is wary of him, saying, "don't touch my folder"). Now, Andrew appreciates the opportunity given to him by Fletcher but also can only turn to Fletcher for support. He is forced to work harder because he now *needs* Fletcher's approval, for he won't get anyone else's.
Sorry, but it was Tanner. It's just too obvious.
That is some evil stuff right there.
Fletcher took it. While Andrew is turning pages, we see that the drum part for "Upswingin" is in the folder. When fletcher gives Andrew a folder of music for the end concert, It contains all the charts that were in the original folder except "Upswingin"
I think this is one of the best movies in a decade. Fletcher did take the music. When he gives Andrew the wrong sheet music in the club, it shows the exact sheet that was stolen in the first place. Fletcher knew he was the better drummer. You even show the proof in this video, but didn’t mention it.
Who took the folder? -- Tell me its not you Elmer Fudd
“What are you looking at? There’s no Mars Bar down there”
Imagine if they found out at the end of the movie that JK Simmons actually never worked at the academy but was just a crazy homeless guy with no understanding of music at all ... he just enjoyed hurling shit and cursing at the musicians while yelling not my tempo ...
MrAtaguas But he was in a jazz bar
MrAtaguas shut the fuck up
He clearly has an understanding of music based on how he talks, and he played piano at a jazz bar
Failed joke lol.
That's what I said about my high school physics teacher! He seemed like such a crackhead
there was no folder at all
PLOT TWIST
What if YOU are the folder?
+Jorge Ramirez What if we are all nothing BUT the folder?
Do not try to look for the folder, that's impossible, instead only try to realize the truth: there is NO folder.
Folder or not folder? That is the question.
I think at this stage fletcher just wanted to get rid of the guy who couldn't play without the folder. He knew that guy wasn't going to be the next big star, which was fletcher's dream.
That 100% seems like something he'd do. As if he'd been putting up with Tanner because he was just good enough till Andrew came along and DIDN'T have to rely entirely on the book. Fletcher saw it as a test for both, mostly Andrew. He'd create a situation where a lost folder would determine if one or both would crash and burn. Andrew seized the opportunity, as I'm sure Fletcher wanted, and got the part.
Yeah, but every single other musician used the sheet music. Nobody else was doing it strictly from memory.
@@cvn6555probably means he'll replace them too if he could at a moment's notice
I’m obsessed with WHIPLASH! I love all of it. The ending is so great it’s like a spiritual moment the way the teacher and the student become one mind!
It seems pretty damn clear to me that it was Andrew's alternate personality, Phillip, who had been trying to sabotage his drum career because of his chronic migraine problems.
Phillip is such an underrated character.
I agree. No one ever talks about him! He's the driving force of the film! He's the one who got Fletcher canned and was finally happy having finally gotten Andrew to stop playing those damned drums!
MattrickBT who???
On the original script it was a janitor yet since it was a competition i feel like a rival band member could've taken it
the fact that you made this comment tells me that this joker doesn't actually answer the question in this video so I'm out
I took the folder :)
Dutch i took it
KG Productions who the fuck are you
Dutch plot twist: it was a rival janitor
censoring out the curse words with silence just breaks the flow of the video
I totally agree. It's an old video, I was young and foolish when I made it. I don't censor anymore haha.
Ah, I didn't expect to get a reply. Glad to hear about your progress!
Half Past Awkward Nice to hear, and nice to see A creator respond to his audience
I disagree.
For academic purposes and for use of study with regards to the plot...there is no need for profanity.
It's a piece of entertainment
.not the end of the world if someone choooses to block it out...
Not quite my tempo LOL
The only logical explanation is that Tanner took the folder.
The folder disappears within like 5 seconds. Unless Fletcher is Batman, there was no time for him to swoop in without being heard or seen by both Andrew AND Tanner. Besides that, I’m sure he had better things to do to prep for the show. Tanner walks up behind Andrew and therefore would have had the folder in his line of sight the whole time. The amount of time that passes between Andrew placing the folder down and Tanner asking Andrew for the folder fully supports the idea that Tanner saw the folder on the chair, tucked it into the back of his pants or into his jacket, and proceeded to blame Andrew.
Why would Tanner do this? He is miserable, but he doesn’t want to quit. He wanted to get Fletcher to kick him out so he wouldn’t seem like a failure for quitting all on his own and appear weak. Andrew is not the only victim of Fletcher’s abuse. Andrew is not the only one who feels like they have to carry the weight of the world to get approval from his family. We know that if you play for Fletcher, you are a victim of abuse, and you are driven by perfection and approval from others.
Tanner is clearly miserable the whole movie, and I believe Tanner has been wanting to get out of Fletcher’s grasp for a long time, but couldn’t find a good enough way to do it until this opportunity came up. He knows Fletcher will end anyone who leaves folders lying around. So, he gave the folder to Andrew anticipating he’d be dumb enough to leave it laying around even though he is fully capable of handling the folder himself. Why would he trust the new guy with his entire career? It’s just a folder. He kept an eye on Andrew to see if he would place the folder down. He did, and Tanner took his opportunity. He knew Fletcher would blame him for giving the folder to Andrew and had no hesitation explaining the situation to Fletcher. In fact, it seemed like he had rehearsed his explanation quite well. I think by this point, Tanner knew that Andrew was good enough to play by heart and knew that Andrew would be able to volunteer himself in Tanner’s place. It was the perfect opportunity for Tanner to get out without looking like a total failure or a bad drummer. Andrew had already shown he was subject to manipulation and Tanner had no problem teeing up an opportunity for Andrew that he was sure to take. Of course, Tanner had to sell it and appear very angry that his drumming career is at risk, and did a good job of that by yelling at Andrew.
I believe the only possible person who could have taken the folder was Tanner. We just needed to know why, and above are the reasons that I think Tanner would be motivated to do it.
Thoughts?
It’s an interesting thought. I wanna say later on when Andrew is talking to fletcher outside the jazz club that Tanner goes into premed?
the same guy who took the mars bar off the floor..
This movie was basically only movie I've watched for a long time that gived me negative emotions and I LOVED IT
well the movie is totally unrealistic. jazz is nothing like this
@@John-nk3ej the movie isn't about jazz no one cares
@@John-nk3ej yep, my jazz director is a sweet old man LOL
You'll love uncut gems
Old video I know but I just watched this movie last night. I would also have thought that fletcher takes the folder as it would make the most sense but the scene makes it look as if the folder is missing seconds after it is put down on the chair which makes no sense as to how andrew didnt notice fletcher come by and take it
True. I think one of the things that makes Whiplash so great is that it leaves us with unanswered questions. A lot of films these days tell the audience everything. Sometimes it's great to leave room for speculation.
I would argue that this scene is the only sub par scene in the film precisely because it tells us, through heavy handed execution, that that fucking folder is a goner. Why else show a close up of the folder being placed on the chair? Anyway, the rest of the film is so bold and so show-y that this particular shot reeeeeaaally disappointed me.
Having said all of that, I suppose you might be raising an important question.
Honestly I didn't think it really mattered. I think because of the hype/tension that had been built up to this point we were just supposed to roll with this unfortunate event. I do like your theory though.
Perhaps the tellyness of this scene is what pushes people to want to know so badly, as if the folder has more importance than just being a plot device.... yet another consequence of telling and not showing, emphasizing the wrong things and ultimately confusing the audience's priorities. I could be wrong in this case, but if you've watched it a bunch and are only aware of the hints you've cited in this video, I truly don't think the writers wanted to leave us guessing. I think it was just a dumb decision in an otherwise jaw dropping film.
+Jordan Thompson
I think you're reading too much into it. It's simple as fuck. The close-up of the folder is just reminding us he's in charge of it and he put it down for a second. In the script a janitor took it but in the final edit it's ambiguous. Why? Mostly because it doesn't matter and probably because Chazelle realized its more interesting to leave it at sabotage vs. accident.
Yeah
The janitor took it on the original script.
S.S .A the original script
How do you know?
He read the screenplay, it's online; and yes, that happen.
In the screenplay, it's revealed that a janitor threw out the folder on accident. That scene was cut.
yes but cut because the director wanted to insert this mystery?
"what could be called 'his abusive relationship with Fletcher'"
🤔 Could be?
Possibly... possibly
*talks about touching scenes are*
"SO WHO TOOK THE FOLDER?"
The folder was an infinity stone, Thanos took it
fucking youtube comments xD
thanoscar
@@619pokefan thanos folder
1 year ago? when did infinity war come out wtf
@@everyonesaidmynamewasstupi3713 comics or something
What I love about that scene is that it feels real, real in the way Andrew felt it or remember it. Also whiplash it gives you the feeling of watching jazz in real life. Damian is a genius
Gives a warning about spoilers for people who haven't watched the movie, and continues to explain the whole movie like movierecaps.
One of my favourite films: perfectly shows competitive drive to achieve greatness, and the cost of pushing yourself to the limit. Contrasts this with our current understanding of abuse in a very interesting way that challenges where healthy challenges end and abuse begins. I've been abused and I'm also an extraordinairily competitive person. For me this film really shows just how hard you can go to try to achieve some of these things. I would have wanted a coach like that to push me. But I don't know if I'd be comfortable with a coach like that with someone else. I guess it depends heavily on who can take it? Who does it help and who does it destroy?
This is awesome!!! This film is indredible. new Sunshine sub.
Oh, that's a typo. I looked up indredible thinking it meant something lol.
*incredible , little trouble there
@@antonchigurh95 is that a whiplash reference
I would suggest that WHO took the folder is actually irrelevant. It's more about Fletcher's ability to manipulate situations and maintain a state of uncertainty as a way of controlling the players on the band - and it also gives him power. Whether he took it or not - does not matter; he can eject, replace, and trade players as he wants, whenever he wants. SO - even if we know who took it - it does not really matter. It's part of storytelling, suspense, unpredictability. While at the very end Fletcher is seen as a master manipulator (offering Andrew chance to play with him after he was fired) - he is only reactive to circumstances rather than be a master plotter before hand.
3:30 for the real start.
I think it's scary that someone can take the life lesson of "don't let discouragement stop you from greatness" away from this movie. I felt like it was more of a cautionary tale and look into abusive relationships. Romantic platonic, familial, all of it. It's horrible to see Andrew fight so hard and take so much abuse for just that smile and nod at the end. That wasn't Fletcher being proud of Andrew. That was Fletcher being satisfied with himself that his horrific mentoring style "works" once again. Showing the cycle of abuse and how Andrew is goaded into repeating the cycle once again.
For whatever its worth, an early draft of the screenplay does include a scene where somebody turns in a folder that a janitor had found.
This channel is so amazing yet underrated
It's comments like these that motivate me to improve my videos and create more content. Thank you so much for watching!
Half Past Awkward it was me who took the folder
CrArbon Holy shit, Karkat. I remember Homestuck. It used to be my shit.
CrArbon dude what if janitor really took the folder .
CrArbon i
I think it was Professor Plum, in the study, with a candlestick....
So glad people are coming back to look at this movie. One of my favorites of all time for many, many reasons. I love it so much.
Same here!
i always assumed tanner hid it himself because he knew he wasnt good enough and wanted a scapegoat for his failure.
another hint is that, before he lost it, Fletcher said he didnt want to see any folders laying around. It would make the most sense that he took it.
This movie reminded me of an abusive relationship, and tough love. The victim knows they are in deep, but feel like it's too late to quit, past the point of no return. This way is the only way to happiness. If they can make it through the rough times there life will be great later. The difference is Fletcher had an end game while an abusive partner usually doesn't stop escalating until one of them leaves or is killed. Great movie, the drumming was amazing!!
Also, I thought Fletcher took the folder as well.
Andrew has the power to leave and has no obligation to fletcher if he did he wouldn't have gotten him fired, everything Andrew does is for himself not fletcher that's why he doesn't quit at the end which is what fletcher wants, payback, but Andrew says screw you I am the best. You see the same thing in many special warfare candidates. Same treatment same attitude
The ending you interpreted was good but it's better if you think it like this. Andrew has been humiliated after all this. He doesn't care about music anymore he feels like he needs to have Fletcher's opinion. So he goes back up and plays. No going back. He's not healthy. He's past the point of return. The guy that died around half way through the movie killed himself because of fletcher. Fletcher wasn't crying cause he loved him. It's because he lost his player. So he decides "alright this guy Andrew is my new best player." I think Andrew will end up how his dad said he would Pumped full of heroin in his 30s and die.
Whiplash.
Journe no i dont think so. Andrew didnt care about Fletcher's opinion at the end, that was the whole point.
I think you're right, actually in this regard I feel like this movie and "Born to be blue" (fiction-documentary about Chet Baker) have at least this theme in common: jazz (or art in general) will destroy you, and that's the price to pay.
I think it's utterly devastating for the audience to see these characters (andrew, or chet baker) destroy themselves for something far greater than them, but at the same time we understand their motives. They're ok with losing everything for the music, because music is that important. That's not a sweet hollywood movie, where everyone is healthy, it's about how the music itself can be abusive: of course Fletcher is an a-hole, but in the end he pushes Andrew to become a great musician.
jasperhalsey pay close attention to the last few shots of the movie. The scene has Andrew, after playing his heart out with an amazing solo, stop and look at Fletcher. But the look in his eyes and expression on his face tells the audience that he is waiting on Fletcher's response. Then when we get a close up of fletcher he is smiling and nodding at Andrew, almost saying "you did it, I'm proud", but in reality he's most likely thinking "I did it, I made him this". Either way the next shot is Andrew finally showing relief and excitement after getting Fletcher's approval. This scene wasn't about the audience in the auditorium or Andrew proving anything to himself. The scene is about someone who was abused giving in to their abuser and validating the abusers methods. That's why the last shot we see of his father isn't him looking proud of what his son has just accomplished (standing up for himself), but horrified because he knows he just lost his son
Guys if you want an explanation watch the 11 minute video of the dark meaning of whiplash unlike this dummy that just copies everybody...😒😒😒😒
He mouthes "fuck you" to fletcher at the end so it s pretty obvious that he doesnt seek his approval anymore
Whiplash is my favorite film and it inspired me to play drums. This video just makes perfect sense. wow!
So are you rushing or are you dragging?
ss062 Neither! I'm on your fucking time.
Not quite my tempo
Great, but please don't walk on the same path as they did. Keith Moon and John Bonham weren't made like this.
So you like things bullies yell at you ? I understand one can enjoy the movie, but make it a favorite, no sorry I don't get the point. This film is the complete apologia of wickedness, until the very last second with this arrogant smile, how in the world would you support that ?
Fletcher took the folder. Many lessons to be learned from the movie.
You forgot to take in the scene at the bar where Fletcher is playing the piano as evidence.
Fletcher is fast like a damned bullet, Andrew barely turns his head after getting noticed and Fletcher was already on his back. In the scene where the folder is lost there was -no time- the only one fast enough to pull that off and go unnoticed and unquestioned would be him.
The way it is shown one would have had to have been a freaking ninja to grab it and disappear in time with neither drummer seeing it taken.
This also parallels the scene where he kicks out the kid for not knowing if he was out of tune. He sets up musicians, and their inability to react (in this case, take care of your sheet music or know it by heart) costs them. It’s consistent with deception he’s used in the past. Definitely think that this is the most likely answer.
May be a bit late, but I just want to make sure that none of us forgot that Fletcher said himself that he "TRIED" to make some of his students into the next Charlie Parker. Maybe the mysterious disappearance of the folder was a test for both Andrew AND Tanner? Seeing who would prevail?
I also arrived at the consclusion that it was Fletcher, someone might say why would Fletcher do this when he can just replace Tanner and put Neiman in his place, it's not like this is the worst thing he has done so far, and by Fletcher's unusual standards it seems like normal behaviour.
I think he did that because he always wanted Neiman to know that he got that part by "accident" and that he became a core member because of a missing folder not because he was actually that good (which he actually says to Andrew later in the movie), that would instill the insecurity he already planted into Neiman, this is also the reason he brings Connolly to replace Neiman.
it was all by design... fletcher is low key a teaching genius
Jmc1285 Dude, Fletcher is many things, but low key he definitely isn't.
You nailed it!
Fletcher took it as another manipulative tactic. He said right before they left the room not to leave the folders anywhere. He knew Andrew would be a space cadet and put it down.
Fletcher looked his whole life for someone who could take the abuse and succeed. I think his tears at his former student's death were more of he thought he found the "one" and he died. He's crying more at his personal failure than from grief. He absolutely took the folder and Andrew kept rising to Fletcher's manipulation in each successive pitfall after this happened. He didn't want to turn in Fletcher, but conceded to pressure. I think Fletcher catches on to this after Andrew stays and keeps trying to perform despite the sabotage at the final concert. Fletcher is enraptured for real at the end because he finally found his Bird. This film is so damn good.
Maybe it was that Minime that Fletcher warned he'll demolish.
*has never seen whiplash*
*is curious and clicks*
Dammit.
Awesome analysis but it seems like when Fletcher yells for Tanner he seems that he is already far distance away when it had only been seconds. BUT Fletcher still could have gotten someone else to take the folder with the same motive.
My guess= Mini-me.
Short before the folder loosing scene he yells at a sound coordinator: "Get the fuck out of my sight before I demolish you!" then, "I CAN STILL FUCKING SEE YOU MINIME!!"
Seems like he treats him like a tool to begin with and who to steal a folder from someone better that the short, swift mini-me!! It was Mini-me all along!!
ARunny Choi holy shit its makes sense ITS WAS POOR MINIME
PROOF THAT FLETCHER TOOK THE FOLDER: Tanner's charts are the charts that Fletcher gives to Nieman at the end of the film. Whiplash is currently on Netflix, and I'm using the 'time remaining' time stamps. If you go frame by frame (because it's fast) and pause it at 1:28:51 remaining in the film (approximately 17:55 into the film), you'll see Tanner flipping through HIS CHARTS to find Whiplash. These are HIS drum charts and HE"S ANNOTATED them circling and adding brackets to specific parts of the music. These are his personal, hand written marks. Pause it again with 17:58 remaining in the film (approximately 1:28:48 into the film) when Andrew starts to look for "Up Swinging" on his stand. We see "Whiplash" and the marks are exactly the same as those from Tanner's earlier. These are Tanner's drum charts with HIS personal markings on them. They were given to Nieman by Fletcher. Fletcher would not have Tanner's charts unless he was the one that took Tanner's folder.
And the fact that the scenes showing this detail are mirrored if you watch the film in reverse and forwards simultaneously a la Kubrick, proves the directors intent. Thanks for the timestamps demonstrating this detail
My theory: It was the janitor all along
100% agree with your thoughts on the movie. It really fits into the character of Fletcher to do it and reinforces the way andrew had felt uptil then - toyed with basically.
Dan Cog k
You say the end of the movie is positive and shows Andrew overcoming adversity and becoming something special. I believe it's something completely different. It shows that Fletcher did in fact take control of Andrew, and although hes doing something incredible, he's doing it because of Fletcher's manipulation. The end of the movie is pretty dark imo, full of unhealthy habits being left untreated, but that's what a lot of talented artists are.
InNeedOfGoodUsername agree 110%. It’s absolutely an abusive relationship and in creative fields unfortunately a really regular thing and NOT okay
yeah idk about the end being positive too
The ending is definitely Andrew reaching his full potential like Fletcher wanted. So it’s positive for both of them in an odd sort of way
Positive for them in a way, but Andrew's dad watching from the outside is horrified. He recognizes the abuse for what it is and sees how much control Fletcher has over his son.
The moment where he humiliates the kid is his "bird" moment. Like he humiliates him and then is proud that he made a comeback and became "bird"
The thing that I find crazy is where fletcher slaps Andrew because the time isn't right. In reality his timing is spot on all through the scene
He’s doing it to test him and see if he will stand up to him
You didn’t have to take up half of this video recapping Whiplash. Anyone watching a video called “Who took the folder” clearly remembers Whiplash.
I loved this movie. One of my favorites. I think the theory about Fletcher taking the folder is the best one honestly.
"The author should know how much change is in their characters pockets" - Some author
I think Fletcher secretly his the folder because he knew he wanted to push Andrew to become the best but he needed an excuse to make the lesser drummer to feel like an idiot, hence to give Andrew the extra edge when the time comes to prove himself.
I don't think he needed an excuse. If he really wanted Andrew as the core drummer, he would've just done it. I personally think Tanner took it, he could've faked the reaction.
Charlie Pekin Why would Tanner take it though? There's no winning for him in this situation. Assume he wanted Andrew to get fucked to secure his own position as a core drummer. Assume that it all goes according to plan and Andrew gets all the shit from Fletcher for loosing the folder. What's the next step? Tanner can't play without his sheets, that has been made very clear, and he can't just whip them out like nothing happened either, this shit wouldn't go unnoticed. So even in this situation he's in a pretty bad position and ends up fucking himself over. It just doesn't make much sense for Tanner to do it.
Willy Wanker True, that's a good point.
Charlie Pekin Fletcher couldn't had told Andrew that he got a part because Andrew would have gotten too comfortable. He wanted Andrew to get the part as a result of random circumstances.
I always suspected that Fletcher took it. He wanted to see Andrew in the seat, but couldn’t say “good job, you got the part.” He had to take someone else down to keep his reign of terror going.
Crazy how ive never gotten a whiplash video in my feed and today when i watched the movie i got this video
It was Fletcher. I watched the movie last night and at the scene before the first competition, where Fletcher tells to the musicians (I don't remember the exact line) that if he finds another rogue file he will take it. I hope you did remember the scene. I tried my best to explain that :D
Exactly idk how he missed it!!
@Existential Delight - Watch the movie.... at 17:56 when Andrew first joins and someone says Milk the **** then Fletcher says whiplash, Tanner turns his own music sheets and for a brief moment it flashes the sheet music. If you look, the markings on the pages (visual cues) are the same exact markings that are on the sheet music at Andrew's final performance. It's the same folder. Fletcher took it and the proof is right there.
I do think this reasoning is spot on.
plot twist: time travel was later discovered and older Andrew went back in time and took the folder thus changing history
Agreed. I assumed fletcher took it since he warned the students earlier about the next time I caught someone leaving the folders arouns.
terrance fletcher kinda looks like j.k simmonds dont ya think
He does! So glad somebody else noticed.
lol
I think the "Out of tune" scene also supports this theory.
Love your uneasiness saying "good job" at the end. That was a nice reference ;)
The "You know this" clue was a good point. But knowing Andrew's personality, and the way he reacted while Tanner was having a meltdown, I think Andrew purposely "lost" the folder as a power-play, knowing he could play the song from memory but Tanner couldn't. Andrew was as ruthless as Fletcher in his pursuit of his goal.
exactly the kind of hyperspecific content i like! great job bro
It was mini me who physically took the folder
I think it actually is plausible that Andrew hid the folder. He's shown to be jealous throughout the film, even blowing up on Fletcher when he shows up late to the recital, and considering this other drummer was never too nice to him to begin with, AND he has Whiplash memorized already, shown in the scene following the folder being lost.
Your theory does make more sense than mine, I think, but I kind of like how he left it ambiguous. The characters are written so well that it could go either way.
Andrew didn't know about the drummer's condition so it is unlikely he would take it. The other guy knew that without the folder he would not be able to play because he needs visual cues. So out of the three of them it is almost certain that Fletcher was the one to take it. However I think his shoes made a lot of noise and echoed in those corridors so I don't understand how he would take it without being noticed.
You are wrong.
The folder was taken by a Janitor who threw it in the trash can by accident.
Read the screenplay of Whiplash, PAGE 47, SCENE 46A. It's written there.
Rayhan Nirjhor A JANITOR A FUCKIN JANITOR. FIND THE FOLDER. YOUR A DUMB FUCK!
That was the first draft, in the final draft, there's no janitor
So in the official screen play after they win the overbrook competition at the dunellen auditorium a stage hand hands the folder to carl saying a janitor might have thrown it into the dustbin.
My theory is that someone sat on the folder and when the person stood up it stuck to his behind.