I played this organ as a teenager as I played for services from 1977 to 1984 and learnt on it. I spent hours on this instrument and it has a special place in my heart. You're right the stops are heavy. It saddens me that it's not played regularly for services now. Thank you for bringing back wonderful memories.
@mikegross6107 I'm a C of E vicar so have my own parish responsibilities and cant play for services. . This organ is in a Roman catholic church and they sing ever Sunday as far as I'm aware using an electronic keyboard. I'm not sure they have anyone confident enough to play the organ.
There was a period in the '70s when everything had to sound "baroque". I have a Harrison & Harrison organ from 1895 which was "baroquised" by Rushworth & Dreaper in the 1970's - they removed the swell box and added a lot of squeaky stops. I have reversed most of that to make it a more eclectic, albeit still a small organ. This organ seems to have been built in that era and has similar characteristics to mine before I revised it.
Very typical Peter organ of the time, built in Redbourne before he moved up here to Melton Mowbray (Leicestershire, not Lincolnshire) I've got ever so much to thank Peter for, he was the reason I moved from my native Durham to Melton Mowbray, to learn the art of voicing, and up until his death I did a lot of that, as well as tunings for the firm. So by extension, he's the reason the organ museum exists down here too, forever on the lookout for an example of one of his organs to install in the museum given the local connection. Funny you mention the Nigel Church connection, he and Peter were good friends, and obviously shared a lot of ideas on organ building - I remember still sitting upstairs in the woodshop at Collins was the original "multitool" bench planer/saw thing that Nigel built the majority of his first instruments on, I wonder whatever happened to that ? Played a number of Nigel Church instruments growing up, the example in Newcastle Catholic cathedral was quite good, though of course now replaced with the Tickell. This one sounds like it needs a little bit of love, hopefully someone drops in to give it a good tune when they get time. Will eventually get around to emailing you about dropping in to the harmonium collection, when I get a moment.
That’s interesting…thank you for sharing your experiences! Please do drop me an email regarding the organ museum - I’d love to come along and do a video there! Thanks again 👍🎹
A charming organ with a baroque flavour. NPOR indicates that the pedal Dulzian is of 8-foot pitch. I wonder if the pipes are actually there, or was that stop prepared for but never added. The fact that the draw stop is fixed in the "off" position appears to suggest that the rank doesn't yet exist. It does sound as if it's been a while since this organ was tuned. Could you give some more detailed aural snippets of basic combinations in future videos. For example, we didn't hear the sound of the Great Flute 8 plus Principal 4 - just the full chorus. We didn't hear a comparison between the two 8-foot manual flutes. We didn't hear the potentially delightful sound of the Positive Flute 8 plus Gemshorn 2 (without the 4-foot). We didn't' hear the sound of the Positive Flutes 8 & 4 - just with the 1 ⅓. We also didn't hear the effect of both manuals coupled, or combinations involving coupling (eg: Gt Flute 8, Principal 4 with just Positive Gemshorn 2 coupled). When you played a fragment of the little Bach F major with the pedal Subbass it remained uncoupled. Lots of small but interesting details which could have been explored. Perhaps plan out a few very short works eg: a couple of hymn tunes, some tiny interludes such as those often included by C H Trevor in his "Old English Organ Music for Manuals" series, to give some brief but informative exposure to various different combinations. This little organ has enormous potential. The gallery location suggests that it carries well into the body of the church. One wonders how it is used today, but the fact that it's still there after more than 50 years speaks for itself. The church is to be congratulated for its far-sighted view in 1970 putting in this fine organ, which would not have been at all cheap at the time. It's certainly outlasted what would easily have been at least 3 different electronic organs across the same period of time, and it's still going strong. Thanks for bringing it to light via TH-cam. This organ would be worth another visit, with some performances of short pieces.
Thank you for all the tips! I’m pretty new to this TH-cam thing so really appreciate productive input and suggestions from the comments. Thank you for watching 👍🎹
I played the instrument for Mass, weddings and the odd funeral in the early 1970s. We also organised a couple of concerts of organ - Instruments since the organ gallery is spacious. The Priest was not elderly and liked music, sang well in tune and directed hymn/new responsorial practice before the service occasionally. So is it an adequate instrument for the task of service accompaniment? 8' to accompany the priest or Cantor singing solo, Varying combinations according to the text of verses for congregational hymn/refrain singing. And for voluntary/concert repertory? Choose the repertory which suits the instrument. Most of Bach can be played. Those who like Romantic sentiment will find it more difficult. 8' to accompany one instrument. Useful combinations for Concertos by Händel and John Stanley, Haydn. And lovely Baroque sounds for Classical Trios or Vivaldi concertos. 1. The organ is a sterling example of the post-WWII British Classical Organ movement***. Mechanical action (sometimes with daring new-material experiments: aluminium, nylon cords ! or carbon fibre instead of wood) for both keys and pipes.. 2. Some were designed to a (Renaissance-Baroque) Werk-Prinzip, which required a principal of different pitch as the basis for each section of drawstops. 8' Pedal, 4' Great, 2' Positive would have been typical. Here, the practice is not strictly adhered to. Although the Great Principal is indeed of 4' and the Positive Gemshorn is voiced as more of a principal than a flute. Mixtures are also made of principal pipes & top off the harmonic series generated and give brilliance. The choruses on the two manuals are typically 'contrasting'. [Contrast is a Baroque artistic feature]. 3. Spatial contrast is often found in organ case design. Here there are TWO organ cases (see the NPOR photos). Their shape accords well with the internal architecture of the church. 4. German Organist and Organ expert of the time, Hans Klotz wrote at that time that a stoplist may be based on a formula: 50% principals, 20% reeds, 30% others. This just about describe this organ. 5. Comparing such an instrument to a romantic organ with swell box and Voix celestes is inappropriate and as useful as saying that Bach would have prefered playing a modern Steinway concert grand piano.Comparing chalk and cheese. 6. "Limited" is perhaps linked to the imagination and experimentation of the organist. Suggestions of crescendo can be made by varying the lengths of notes. Accents sans be artificially created by shortening the note before the chord to be accented. Baroque practice requires control of finger articulation and some organists decide to limit their foot technique to only the points of toes. "Only 9 stops"? Mathematics show us the variety of possibilities. With only two stops, we have the following sounds available: A, B, A+B, A played an octave higher, A played and octave lower, A+B played an octave higher, A+B played an octave lower. SEVEN different possibilities. If A is Rohrflöte of 8' and B is Principal of 4', playing B an octave lower would give the effect of an 8' Open Diapason. LIMITED indeed to a bottom note of Tenor C. But could be useful for the odd verse of a hymn with rearrangement of the harmonies or judicious addition of the 8' to the pedal. The number of possibilities increase with three stops available: 8 4 2. Combining Great 4 Principal with Positive 2 Gemshorn and playing an octave down will give a Principals 8' + 4' impression (within the same limit as above). On this instruments, what is the usefulness of couling the two manual 8' stops together? A Thickening of sound when playing hymns, or Solo flute on the Great accompanied by the Gedacht on the Positive. "Empty combinations" can give delicious spiky or nasal effects. 8' Rohrflöte (or Gedacht) + 1.1/3. 4' Koppelfl. + 1.1/3 played an octave down as a RH solo => 8 + 2.2/3 for a French or Dutch Nasard Solo (Baroque, Jean Langlais, Flor Peeters). 8 + 4 + 1.1/3. 8 + 2. 8 + 2 + 1.1/3 8 + II !! "Full Organ" can be Great 8 + 4 + II, Positive 2 coupled to Gt 8 + 4 + II Positive 2 + 1.1/3 coupled to Gt 8 + 4 (+II) Positive 2 + 1.1/3 coupled to Great 4 + II played an octave down. If one finds the Pedal 16 "limited", try - not using it! Ubiquitous can become boring. - adding the Positive 4'. 16 + 4 can be clearer than 16 alone or 16 + 8. - playing the pedal part of a hymn in octaves. *** The search for authentic performance in Early Music had begun (by Dolmetsch for example) before WWII. One spin-off was teaching recorder to school kids! More and more historic (pre 1848) instruments in Europe were being cleaned and restored to their original specification and pitch. So we could more easily grasp how the organ sounded to Couperin, Bach or Mendelssohn. Musicological research gave us better notions of the working conditions of Baroque organists. Bach's work instruments often had only two manuals + pedals and never exceeded three with around 35 stops! As Organ-tester, he travelled to cities with larger instrument, but even the Katharinenkirche in Hamburg had 'only' 4 manuals, pedals and 58 stops. (Paltry as compared to Romantic British Cathedral instruments). Only in Weissenfels would he have been able to play a high pedal F (BWV 540). Nowhere would he have even able to play pedal high F# (BWV 608) or low pedal B (BWV 572) - indeed rather few organs indeed have had this note available!
Well that’s very helpful information and a lot to absorb and get my head around - thank you! And interesting that you have firsthand experience playing this organ. I hope you’re subscribed as I find this sort of informative comment useful! Thanks again 👍🎹
Not sure why that link doesn't take you directly to the wikipedia page - there is a link on the landing page though. Thank you for pointing that out 👍🎹
I wonder if you'd be interested to try the Peter Collins at Orford in Suffolk. It was moved there from (I think) the University of Southampton a few years ago. It's certainly rather striking looking and rather bigger than this instrument.
I have seen pictures of it and I would be very interested in seeing it. The problem is obviously the distance (I’m based in the North East) but I’m sure something could be arranged 👍🎹
@@OrganicVisitations I went to see it recently as my folks live ten minutes away, but you need to contact the church to ask to play which I didn't realise. The are some recordings of it and it does sound rather better then the one in your video!
A Dulzian would be a half length pipe so 8' becomes 4'. The case looks large enough to accommodate it. If tuned to a quarter legth speaking stop it would give a 16' definition to the pedal. It is amazing what is done on that score. I know of one organ with one.
A somewhat odd specification, overall. It sounds like the builder had his own unique ideas about organs. Like all organs, though, it needs an organist who can make the most of the possible combinations. Interesting.
Nice, but typical of the 1970's - it will sound better playing the tunes of that era than it will playing the 19th c. repertory - and it will sound fine playing Bach. I suspect the brightness was to compensate for the acoustics of the mid 20th c. with wall to wall carpet and a minimum of reverberation.
It is a different organ. There are no celeste stops, string stops or 8 foot diapasons. No tremolo, no expression. I would personally prefer to have a salicional or gamba or other string tone instead of the Spitz Quint, but that is just me. That being said it may well have suited the needs of that particular congregation.
Not a fan of Peter Collins work - but most of his work was of that period of so called classical . But if you like this sort of thing it is a reasonable example & 100 % better than any electronic thing.
This is voiced in the s.k organ reform period, no Nicks, low labial cut, all promoting strong overtones. Made for genuine European baroque music, of which it works very well. Play Bachs triosonata and you will be impressed, classical British organ music, no.
@@OrganicVisitations I do agree with you that it would most certainly make a good practice organ, but even there setting up the registrations would be somewhat counter productive since you will be using completely different ones on the big "grand" organ lol.
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I played this organ as a teenager as I played for services from 1977 to 1984 and learnt on it. I spent hours on this instrument and it has a special place in my heart. You're right the stops are heavy. It saddens me that it's not played regularly for services now. Thank you for bringing back wonderful memories.
So you know it first hand! I’m sure you’d be welcomed back to play it 👍🎹
@OrganicVisitations given I'm a vicar now and take services every Sunday I'd struggle. Nice to hear and surprised its still in such reasonable shape.
What reason for not playing that organ regularly? Is the congregation singing acapella, the way they are supposed to worship on Sundays?
@mikegross6107 I'm a C of E vicar so have my own parish responsibilities and cant play for services. . This organ is in a Roman catholic church and they sing ever Sunday as far as I'm aware using an electronic keyboard. I'm not sure they have anyone confident enough to play the organ.
There was a period in the '70s when everything had to sound "baroque". I have a Harrison & Harrison organ from 1895 which was "baroquised" by Rushworth & Dreaper in the 1970's - they removed the swell box and added a lot of squeaky stops. I have reversed most of that to make it a more eclectic, albeit still a small organ. This organ seems to have been built in that era and has similar characteristics to mine before I revised it.
Thanks, Ian! Must come and see your collection of organs one day. Hope you’re well 👍🎹
What an interesting little instrument. Very nice
It’s quite nice for what it is 👍🎹
Very typical Peter organ of the time, built in Redbourne before he moved up here to Melton Mowbray (Leicestershire, not Lincolnshire)
I've got ever so much to thank Peter for, he was the reason I moved from my native Durham to Melton Mowbray, to learn the art of voicing, and up until his death I did a lot of that, as well as tunings for the firm. So by extension, he's the reason the organ museum exists down here too, forever on the lookout for an example of one of his organs to install in the museum given the local connection.
Funny you mention the Nigel Church connection, he and Peter were good friends, and obviously shared a lot of ideas on organ building - I remember still sitting upstairs in the woodshop at Collins was the original "multitool" bench planer/saw thing that Nigel built the majority of his first instruments on, I wonder whatever happened to that ?
Played a number of Nigel Church instruments growing up, the example in Newcastle Catholic cathedral was quite good, though of course now replaced with the Tickell.
This one sounds like it needs a little bit of love, hopefully someone drops in to give it a good tune when they get time.
Will eventually get around to emailing you about dropping in to the harmonium collection, when I get a moment.
That’s interesting…thank you for sharing your experiences! Please do drop me an email regarding the organ museum - I’d love to come along and do a video there! Thanks again 👍🎹
Thanks again for the demo. I see you are looking a bit better in this visitation as have been looking a bit under the weather in previous videos.
Starting to feel a bit more like myself now, thank you 👍🎹
A charming organ with a baroque flavour. NPOR indicates that the pedal Dulzian is of 8-foot pitch. I wonder if the pipes are actually there, or was that stop prepared for but never added. The fact that the draw stop is fixed in the "off" position appears to suggest that the rank doesn't yet exist.
It does sound as if it's been a while since this organ was tuned.
Could you give some more detailed aural snippets of basic combinations in future videos. For example, we didn't hear the sound of the Great Flute 8 plus Principal 4 - just the full chorus. We didn't hear a comparison between the two 8-foot manual flutes. We didn't hear the potentially delightful sound of the Positive Flute 8 plus Gemshorn 2 (without the 4-foot). We didn't' hear the sound of the Positive Flutes 8 & 4 - just with the 1 ⅓. We also didn't hear the effect of both manuals coupled, or combinations involving coupling (eg: Gt Flute 8, Principal 4 with just Positive Gemshorn 2 coupled). When you played a fragment of the little Bach F major with the pedal Subbass it remained uncoupled. Lots of small but interesting details which could have been explored. Perhaps plan out a few very short works eg: a couple of hymn tunes, some tiny interludes such as those often included by C H Trevor in his "Old English Organ Music for Manuals" series, to give some brief but informative exposure to various different combinations.
This little organ has enormous potential. The gallery location suggests that it carries well into the body of the church. One wonders how it is used today, but the fact that it's still there after more than 50 years speaks for itself. The church is to be congratulated for its far-sighted view in 1970 putting in this fine organ, which would not have been at all cheap at the time. It's certainly outlasted what would easily have been at least 3 different electronic organs across the same period of time, and it's still going strong. Thanks for bringing it to light via TH-cam. This organ would be worth another visit, with some performances of short pieces.
Thank you for all the tips! I’m pretty new to this TH-cam thing so really appreciate productive input and suggestions from the comments. Thank you for watching 👍🎹
It certainly existed at the origin of the instrument!
I agree with the comment that more combinations and actual pieces could be explored.
Thank you - I’ll work on that 👍🎹
Well placed in the west gallery. Very much of its time, individual stops pleasant. I assume no choral needs bur ok for liturgy.
I should have included the image from the nave…although it’s quite hidden away 👍🎹
I played the instrument for Mass, weddings and the odd funeral in the early 1970s. We also organised a couple of concerts of organ - Instruments since the organ gallery is spacious. The Priest was not elderly and liked music, sang well in tune and directed hymn/new responsorial practice before the service occasionally.
So is it an adequate instrument for the task of service accompaniment?
8' to accompany the priest or Cantor singing solo, Varying combinations according to the text of verses for congregational hymn/refrain singing.
And for voluntary/concert repertory?
Choose the repertory which suits the instrument. Most of Bach can be played. Those who like Romantic sentiment will find it more difficult.
8' to accompany one instrument. Useful combinations for Concertos by Händel and John Stanley, Haydn. And lovely Baroque sounds for Classical Trios or Vivaldi concertos.
1. The organ is a sterling example of the post-WWII British Classical Organ movement***.
Mechanical action (sometimes with daring new-material experiments: aluminium, nylon cords ! or carbon fibre instead of wood) for both keys and pipes..
2. Some were designed to a (Renaissance-Baroque) Werk-Prinzip,
which required a principal of different pitch as the basis for each section of drawstops.
8' Pedal, 4' Great, 2' Positive would have been typical. Here, the practice is not strictly adhered to. Although the Great Principal is indeed of 4' and the Positive Gemshorn is voiced as more of a principal than a flute. Mixtures are also made of principal pipes & top off the harmonic series generated and give brilliance.
The choruses on the two manuals are typically 'contrasting'. [Contrast is a Baroque artistic feature].
3. Spatial contrast is often found in organ case design. Here there are TWO organ cases (see the NPOR photos). Their shape accords well with the internal architecture of the church.
4. German Organist and Organ expert of the time, Hans Klotz wrote at that time that a stoplist may be based on a formula: 50% principals, 20% reeds, 30% others. This just about describe this organ.
5. Comparing such an instrument to a romantic organ with swell box and Voix celestes is inappropriate and as useful as saying that Bach would have prefered playing a modern Steinway concert grand piano.Comparing chalk and cheese.
6. "Limited" is perhaps linked to the imagination and experimentation of the organist.
Suggestions of crescendo can be made by varying the lengths of notes. Accents sans be artificially created by shortening the note before the chord to be accented. Baroque practice requires control of finger articulation and some organists decide to limit their foot technique to only the points of toes.
"Only 9 stops"?
Mathematics show us the variety of possibilities.
With only two stops, we have the following sounds available: A, B, A+B, A played an octave higher, A played and octave lower, A+B played an octave higher, A+B played an octave lower. SEVEN different possibilities.
If A is Rohrflöte of 8' and B is Principal of 4', playing B an octave lower would give the effect of an 8' Open Diapason. LIMITED indeed to a bottom note of Tenor C. But could be useful for the odd verse of a hymn with rearrangement of the harmonies or judicious addition of the 8' to the pedal.
The number of possibilities increase with three stops available: 8 4 2.
Combining Great 4 Principal with Positive 2 Gemshorn and playing an octave down will give a Principals 8' + 4' impression (within the same limit as above).
On this instruments, what is the usefulness of couling the two manual 8' stops together? A Thickening of sound when playing hymns, or Solo flute on the Great accompanied by the Gedacht on the Positive.
"Empty combinations" can give delicious spiky or nasal effects.
8' Rohrflöte (or Gedacht) + 1.1/3.
4' Koppelfl. + 1.1/3 played an octave down as a RH solo => 8 + 2.2/3 for a French or Dutch Nasard Solo (Baroque, Jean Langlais, Flor Peeters).
8 + 4 + 1.1/3.
8 + 2.
8 + 2 + 1.1/3
8 + II !!
"Full Organ" can be Great 8 + 4 + II,
Positive 2 coupled to Gt 8 + 4 + II
Positive 2 + 1.1/3 coupled to Gt 8 + 4 (+II)
Positive 2 + 1.1/3 coupled to Great 4 + II played an octave down.
If one finds the Pedal 16 "limited", try
- not using it! Ubiquitous can become boring.
- adding the Positive 4'. 16 + 4 can be clearer than 16 alone or 16 + 8.
- playing the pedal part of a hymn in octaves.
*** The search for authentic performance in Early Music had begun (by Dolmetsch for example) before WWII. One spin-off was teaching recorder to school kids!
More and more historic (pre 1848) instruments in Europe were being cleaned and restored to their original specification and pitch. So we could more easily grasp how the organ sounded to Couperin, Bach or Mendelssohn.
Musicological research gave us better notions of the working conditions of Baroque organists.
Bach's work instruments often had only two manuals + pedals and never exceeded three with around 35 stops! As Organ-tester, he travelled to cities with larger instrument, but even the Katharinenkirche in Hamburg had 'only' 4 manuals, pedals and 58 stops. (Paltry as compared to Romantic British Cathedral instruments).
Only in Weissenfels would he have been able to play a high pedal F (BWV 540). Nowhere would he have even able to play pedal high F# (BWV 608) or low pedal B (BWV 572) - indeed rather few organs indeed have had this note available!
Might I suggest this link for the organ builder: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Collins_(organ_builder)
Well that’s very helpful information and a lot to absorb and get my head around - thank you! And interesting that you have firsthand experience playing this organ. I hope you’re subscribed as I find this sort of informative comment useful! Thanks again 👍🎹
Yes, I placed that link in the description when I uploaded the video 👍🎹
@@OrganicVisitations Hm. Your link didn't work for me... the
NPOR link was fine.
Not sure why that link doesn't take you directly to the wikipedia page - there is a link on the landing page though. Thank you for pointing that out 👍🎹
I wonder if you'd be interested to try the Peter Collins at Orford in Suffolk. It was moved there from (I think) the University of Southampton a few years ago. It's certainly rather striking looking and rather bigger than this instrument.
I have seen pictures of it and I would be very interested in seeing it. The problem is obviously the distance (I’m based in the North East) but I’m sure something could be arranged 👍🎹
@@OrganicVisitations I went to see it recently as my folks live ten minutes away, but you need to contact the church to ask to play which I didn't realise. The are some recordings of it and it does sound rather better then the one in your video!
As they were very strongly voiced, a perspex screen would be angled up towards the player.
This should be used, or you need ear plugs.
Definitely needed ear plugs sitting so close to the pipe work! 👍🎹
I may be crazy, but it sounds like there's a wind problem on the positiv when you pull them all.
Definitely! In fact I mention that in the video 👍🎹
Yes, the dulzian is a reed.
Thank you for confirming 👍🎹
Would have been interested to hear how it sounded from the nave
I must invest in some more recording equipment 👍🎹
I wonder if the pipes of the Dulzian Are in that organ. As a reed rank in a modest organ, it could be that is a prepared rank that was never realized
Yes, I wondered if it was prepared. Not sure there is space for a reed rank…👍🎹
A Dulzian would be a half length pipe so 8' becomes 4'. The case looks large enough to accommodate it. If tuned to a quarter legth speaking stop it would give a 16' definition to the pedal. It is amazing what is done on that score. I know of one organ with one.
The pipes were there at the origin of the instrument.
A somewhat odd specification, overall. It sounds like the builder had his own unique ideas about organs. Like all organs, though, it needs an organist who can make the most of the possible combinations. Interesting.
That mixture is a bit much! But a charming little thing, that organ!
It is a bit in ya face! But yes, a nice enough little organ 👍🎹
Nice, but typical of the 1970's - it will sound better playing the tunes of that era than it will playing the 19th c. repertory - and it will sound fine playing Bach. I suspect the brightness was to compensate for the acoustics of the mid 20th c. with wall to wall carpet and a minimum of reverberation.
Other than the wall to wall carpet the church has pretty decent acoustics 👍🎹
It is a different organ. There are no celeste stops, string stops or 8 foot diapasons. No tremolo, no expression. I would personally prefer to have a salicional or gamba or other string tone instead of the Spitz Quint, but that is just me. That being said it may well have suited the needs of that particular congregation.
Very limited but not bad for what it is 👍🎹
@@OrganicVisitations Well the one thing going for it is that it isn't unitized! So that is a huge plus!
Not a fan of Peter Collins work - but most of his work was of that period of so called classical . But if you like this sort of thing it is a reasonable example & 100 % better than any electronic thing.
"Now now" , @user-cv3wx , There are some superb digital electric organs out and the Johannus range is just beautiful. Obviously you are a purist
It’s the first Peter Collins I have come across , and as I said in the video, reminded me of Nigel Church organs 👍🎹
This is voiced in the s.k organ reform period, no Nicks, low labial cut, all promoting strong overtones. Made for genuine European baroque music, of which it works very well. Play Bachs triosonata and you will be impressed, classical British organ music, no.
Interesting - thank you! 👍🎹
Not an organ I would want go out of my way to hear or to play.
Certainly not the best of the best but grateful I got to visit it nonetheless 👍🎹
I personally don't like any of the small organs with such whiny, lethargic voices. But many do, and there's definitely a place for them.
I’m not a huge fan either 👍🎹
@@OrganicVisitations I do agree with you that it would most certainly make a good practice organ, but even there setting up the registrations would be somewhat counter productive since you will be using completely different ones on the big "grand" organ lol.