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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ต.ค. 2024
- There are a lot of communities in the LGBT community that kinda get bullied and the one I see the most is nonbinary lesbians. There's a lot of bigger content creators that have made a career shitting on nonbinary folks and that includes nonbinary lesbians. So I thought why not shine some positive light on a community that I think deserves more love. Be sure to let me know your thoughts in the comments below and be sure to check out my Patreon if you want to help support this wonderful community!
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Part of becoming a fully formed Human being is realising that each and every Human you encounter has a Universe inside their heads.
Everyone you encounter has a universe inside their heads.
Many of them are very strange places indeed. Maybe more than you think.
But even so - even though a lot of them may definitely not be your cup of tea - most of them intend no harm to you or anyone else.
"Nonbinary Lesbian's can not exist" I am sorry but did you never see Peanuts growing up? Peppermint Patty anyone? A Lesbian coded character that called everyone "sir."
I loved peppermint patty when I was younger 😅 ngl I loved her and Marcy's friendship so much
Omg! I love her ❤
I believe it was Marcie that called Peppermint Patty "sir". And I think it was just Peppermint Patty.
Her and Marcie, the secret gay couple.
I remember when I was confused how nonbinary and lesbian can work together. Then I read details about what nonbinary means and a few posts from nonbinary lesbians, and chilled.
I think it’s the definition of lesbian that's the issue, though, not the definition of non-binary. "Gay" just means "homosexual", but "lesbian" exclusively means "homosexual woman".
Not that I'm saying folks can't call themselves that if they want, and I'll respect their choice. However, it does strike me as an odd use of language, personally.
@@reiteration6273 The more exact definition is, "Non-men that love non-men." Meaning if you are not a man, and you love people who identify as something other than a man, that can be considered lesbian. Same thing goes for the gay label.
I appreciate the respect you gave towards something you don't understand, you're allowed to disagree of course but I hope that helps 😊
@@theonly_august I see that's definitely the definition being used in Lynn's video, but it seems the word's use in common parlance has yet to evolve to that point, since no dictionary I've been able to find defines it as "non-male" people, they just say "women".
Still, language evolves over time, so if the LGBT+ community can end the infighting and all start using "lesbian" in the way it's being used here, eventually the dictionary writers will take the hint.
@@reiteration6273
Our only advice for your perspective is to remember that you are not talking to a dictionary.
Not here or pretty much anywhere.
As a nonbinary lesbian, I approve of this message
You don`t even mention `non-binary lesbian` in the playlists on your 50 video channel. You give no preferred pronouns, you don`t mention trans. Maybe a way to raise visibility for your `identity` would be to mention it on your channel?
Me too.
@@barryledgister4496 I actually do mention my pronouns in the description of my channel. I keep my orientation private simply because I don't wish for people to ask questions, as it's not something I talk about online but I support in other ways. Don't assume that of me, please!
@@barryledgister4496 - They don't have to, maybe they're not comfortable with it yet. You don't know.
Me too
as a NONBINARY LESBIAN myself who is also *aroace* , thank you so much for speaking on this!! like, yesss helloooo?? i also do loooove women/enbies !!
(like this comment if ur a nonbinary lesbian- I GOTTA SEE YALL)
How are you aroace and a lesbian? Genuinely asking it just seems like they would kind of not work together just based on the definitions. Also the bi flag? What? /gen
I'm an ace nombinary lesbian too! ❤❤
@@snapdragonslairLesbian means you are attracted to non-men, not specifically sexually though. Being an ace lesbian just means you like non-men romantically but not sexually!
@@theonly_august no they said aroace (aromantic/asexual) not asexual. They also have the bisexual and lesbian flag in their pfp so I'm confused
@@snapdragonslair They may be oriented aroace
Just going to share my perspective on this topic as a genderqueer butch lesbian. In my opinion a lot of this discourse dates back to lesbian separatism in the 1960s. There was a massive push to exclude gnc people, mainly butches. A lot of butches (such as myself) consider being butch to be their gender (from my understanding this is also common amongst femmes). Even currently there is a lot of anti butch hate within the community and this has overlap with excluding non binary lesbians since there are tons of butches who are non binary, genderqueer, transmasc, ect and use pronouns that were not she/her, or prefer masculine titles and terms. Anyways, really great to see this video.
edit: added more info
"tg butch" is a term that was around in the 00s and I think maybe it should come back -- "butch as a gender identity".
I think it's very interesting how hard a lot of us try to enforce hierarchy within our communities given the history of the cisheteropatriarchy oppressing us. A lot of people complain about transphobia and homophobia and then turn around and are bigots to people who don't meet their criteria of what a "good" lgbtq+ person is
Yeah, a lot of those types of people would probably be conservative if they weren't queer (or sometimes straight up just are despite it). The real goal for us should be to tear down all hierarchies, not make ourselves more comfortable within them.
Yeah I agree!
Some don’t feel good unless they can make another feel bad ...
I remember being so scared being an agender sapphic, and realizing that i *love* using he/they pronouns. I was so scared because- im not straight because im not a woman or a man. I dont even identify as nonbinary! I actually had to sit down and talk with some friends bc i was so scared to use a pronoun that was making me so happy. In the end, they helped me logic through how it's fine, and now i happily use he/they and neos. Thabk you so much for talking about this!!!
Judith Butler on being a lesbian: "if the category were to offer no trouble, it would cease to be interesting to me: It is precisely the pleasure produced by the instability of those categories which sustains the various erotic practices that make me a candidate for the category to begin with."
That's a great quote
it sounds crazy, but you *don't* need to understand every single aspect of someone's identity in order to support them!
Yes, it sounds very crazy. So I should support everybody with crazy ideas? You guys are cornering yourselves with your nonsense...and you all know it. People are obviously not going to support people who they think have crazy ideas.
@@barryledgister4496 i meant the idea of supporting someone who you don't understand sounds crazy, lol
clearly bigots lack reading comprehension all around~
almost like transphobia and stupidity are directly linked!
As a masc originating and wearinga agender aroace with whatever spectrum is left being fem focused for the most part, i would feel uncomfortable using the term lesbian in earnest.
Aroace gang. I'm a demiguy, used to id as transmasc nb, but have settled more definitively on the masc end of the spectrum. I was in a sort of situationship with a nonbinary lesbian but it just didn't feel right.
They were demi and they said that was enough for them since they weren't usually attracted to masc people but it just felt kinda... off. We're still good friends and there's much less cognitive dissonance being platonic soulmates instead of anything romance adjacent.
Omg my identity being appreciated and accepted and not hated on- thank you-
Thank you for talking about that topic. I'm an agender aroace lesbian and I can totally understand if people don't understand it when they hear it for the first time. I'm fine if you ask me respectfully about it but don't tell me that I don't exist because I'm existing with those labels.
As a nonbinary lesbian it’s hard to feel like you belong anywhere in the community but with other genderqueer sapphics. In the nonbinary community there is a lot of people who don’t see us as nonbinary and in the lesbian community there is a lot of people who don’t see us as lesbian. And for some reason the majority of the criticism comes from people who aren’t nonbinary or lesbian who can’t seem to understand us. Basically there’s a lot of questioning our validity on the daily. For the record, if you’re asking how you can be nonbinary and a lesbian but not listening to our perspective, it’s harassment. I really appreciate this video, it’s a good reminder that not everybody in the community feels this way and solidarity is still an option. What it comes down to is that even if you don’t understand, you can always respect.
As an agender (Librafeminine specifically) who has had no interest in transitioning, socially or medically, I, for all intents and purposes present as a cis woman. If the role was flipped, an agender person presenting as a cis man, I see where the critique of “a non man who loves/dates non men” would gain traction as a criticism, if that person was to be a partner of a lesbian.
You can be bi and exclude attraction to men. I have a genital and secondary sex characteristic preference and prefer bi in this context. I do think that nonbinary lesbians are valid, personally. I just think that framing it as non men loving non men is indirect erasure of amab enbies. Let’s stop treating the nonbinary community as “women-lite”, for lack of better phrasing.
(Edited for clarity)
Honestly, my identity is already so confusing that I literally couldn't care less about what other people are doing. Like, I'm an enigma even to myself so judging people because I don't understand who they are would be pretty hypocritical.
I'm also an enigma even to myself. Accepting and valuing myself as I am is a daily challenge.
Demigirl lesbian here! I first realized I'm a lesbian, then that I'm not a "complete girl". I spent so much time fighting internalized homophobia, accepting I don't like men and feeling comfy with "being a lesbian", I don't feel "lesbian" misgenders me, so why should I change how I label myself because some people don't approve? I'm not gonna throw away all my mental hard work lol
Maybe you should work on internalized misogyny next, since you believe there is such a thing as an incomplete woman
@@xavy5139 get a grip and have some solidarity. Your argument is a deck of cards. If you believe that someone who is anyone but a woman is erasing women, then you would have a problem with men not being women either. It’s not misogynistic to be trans and have your gender not be a complete woman. It’s in fact misogynistic to demand nonbinary people to stay their AGAB when you perceive them as a girl
You can be non binary and lesbian. They are completely valid. You are such an open-minded, sweet person. We need more people like you in the world
No, you need to be a woman to be a lesbian. `Non-binary` includes men. Men can`t be lesbians.
As an afab nonbinary lesbian THANK YOU!!! I am not attracted to men or masc presenting enby/genderfluid people. So I can't be straight, bi, or pan. I am attracted to women and fem/andro nonbinary people. What word defines that? A LESBIAN ! like hello????
I've heard some lesbians don't like the "non-man" phrasing because they don't like men being part of the definition
Maybe they should invent another term then?
I thought about this and if u don't like using 'non-men/non-man' then you could say: wlw/nblw/wlnb/nblnb
@@HappyBuffalo347why should it be on lesbians to invent another term for themselves? That’s lesbian erasure.
@@BloomTheBaddie❤
I'm not even a lesbian, but being a woman I don't really like the whole “non man” thing. I respect everyones identities though, even if I don't get it.
I mean historically lesbian communities had a couple different gender idenities in the community, true many were under the umbrella of women but many were not. Some butches used butch as their gender not woman. Others did not. Some sapphics came out as enby after decades in the community or as new language described their experience. Some trans masc are still involved in sapphic communities they were in before transition. Many people don't care and it's odd that some do because it doesn't effect them, invalidate their gender or orientation. Someone is just different from them. Orientation isn't some global monolithic gated community. Plus non binary is a umbrella with innumerable gender and presentations, chances are one of em is a specific lesbians type and chances are they/she won't sweat it that much.
At the end of the day they're all just labels, and you can use whatever labels fit you
real, amazing take
At the end of the day, words have meanings
I grew up as a closeted nonbinary transfeminine lesbian, but now consider myself pansexual.
Most folx I know who _could be_ considered nonbinary lesbians just refer to themselves as “queer”, but of course that umbrella is big enough to encompass most any LGBTQIA+ identity, so it can be good to have more granular labels.
transfems need no arguing about wether they belong as lesbians, obviously anyone can but transfems need no arguing at all
I know someone who is nonbinary and lesbian. Leave people alone my goodness 😭🙏🏽
I'm nonbinary asexual lesbian. Thanks for this video. love your content so much. 💕
The discourse stems partly from the Political Lesbianism movement of the 1970s.
In other words, some people choose to be assholes because English lacks words for sexual orientation that are specific to non-binary people.
As someone who's ace/aro - if you're a non-binary person, and you find women attractive - that's AWESOME!
People make up terms all the time, but I don't think it's super useful. Once you realize that both gender and sexuality are both on a spectrum and fluid, it's just too big an ask to express both of them simultaneously in one word
I'm a trans non-binary/agender femme and finsexual, but lesbian is a convenient shorthand that expresses most of what most people need to know about my gender and sexuality in a way that is generally understood (oh, demi/grey ace, too ❤)
I personally don't like that description because that means you can be both lesbian and gay. I don't mind "non-binary lesbian" simply because it lets me know that you prefer women or the female form.
Please keep in mind that I'm autistic and like things to not be confusing. I may have different thoughts a few years from now, but that's in a few years.
I apologise if you're offended by my opinion, but I have the right to be wrong,
You're right, these people are self-hating bisexuals
@@xavy5139 Crazy ahh
As a trans man myself I don’t get identifying as a trans man and a lesbian but hey if my trans brothers want to do that then that’s totally fine by me it’s not hurting anyone and if they vibe with it, they vibe with it. If their partners are sweet and validate their gender identity in their relationship and love and care about them then it’s all good. I don’t particularly see an issue with it. Just let people identify with what they want to identify as. It’s just a label. It shouldn’t hurt you. 🫶🏻🩷
I would date you.
This discussion has been very helpful to me. I’m only now coming into my queerness in my early fifties. For now, the labels I use are Demi-sexual and romantic, trans/nonbinary, maybe agender, but AFAB, with my aesthetic attraction to women and any potential romantic partner would be a woman. I’ve been wondering if using the term lesbian would be “right “ as an ENBY individual. I’m so thankful to your generation for helping promote discourse around inclusive language and support within our community. I never had any way to understand or quantify my identity growing up. I was afraid of “being gay” and had no language for how I felt about my gender identity. Your content has especially been helpful in my being able to analyze and understand my sexuality and gender identity. I feel more accepting and understanding towards myself that it’s ok for these concepts about myself to change as I grow. You always give good food for thought and excellent linked resources. This was great. I now have some other resources to look into. Take care.
Agreed!
I've learned so much more about myself at age 39 and 40 than was ever made available to me in 90's grade school when I was so uncomfortable thinking I was just a "normal straight/cis male". Now the humor and comfort I feel that most people think I am using NB as a stop between AFAB to Male trans is amusing and delightful.
IM A NONBINARY LESBIAN :D I sometimes forget because I'm just not as active online to see that as a focus of my life, I have my qpr, she's the sweetest person ever and I sometimes even forget that we are queer because it's just who we are, always have been and how we live. I wish I could live in a world where I can just have my silly little qpr and mess around with my expression just as straight cis white teens are. I'm only fifteen guys, why is my existence such a pain in your eyes (speaking to all the bigots)
I have a question What is "qpr"?
Seems like a acronym.
Your existence is as much a nuisance to bigots as mine is (disabled, Neopagan, kinky, LGBT+ ally) because neither of us conforms to their idea of what we should be--cisgendered, white, gender conforming, heterosexual, vanilla, fundamentalist evangelical Protestant, et cetera... The very existence of minorities of any kind threatens their vision of "racial purity" and clearly defined gender roles and their brand of religion and so on ad nauseam... And, as the old Japanese adage goes, "The nail that sticks out must be hammered down." The only problem with this is that we're people, not nails, and I don't have to tell you that people do not come in one size fits all" if you know what I mean...
As long as you're comfortable, it's fine. Use the labels you like. The ones that make you feel good.
i think nonbinary lesbians are completely valid, but i really struggle with the non-men definition because it just feels like it centers men as the default and everyone else as "the other." like why even mention men in the only sexual orientation that doesn't include them? idk feel free to correct me if you think otherwise.
Exactly...it`s anti woman, and anti-lesbian. People pretending to be a `gender` isn`t the same as actually having a birth-sex. A non-binary woman can of course be a lesbian, a non-binary man can not. The `non-binary` adds nothing to change the birth-sex. It`s just...nothing. All the other `genders` don`t trump the birth-sex. We don`t have relationships with a `gender identity`, we have them with physical, sexed beings. Even the content creator realises this with recent videos asking if asexual and non-binary are real. They`re not as real as birth-sex. The first is a lifestyle, the second impacts on nothing.
@@barryledgister4496We're pretty much all of us "pretending to be a gender" because society puts us into gendered categories whether we want to or not. Trying to express that I don't have gender caused a lot of friction, I can say from experience
And as for relationships, a lot of us are attracted to gendered traits rather than to sex. I want to be loved as a person first and foremost, not as a body
That you insist on "birth sex" is of course a dogwhistle, so maybe I'm stupid to react at all?
@@AnitaLichtenberg No, `birth-sex` isn`t a dogwhitsle. It means your sexed body...either male or female or very rarely intersex/hermaphrodite.
Gendered traits or not, people love the body...what else is there? That`s what the person is...the rest as you say, is pretend, drag, a social construct. Gendered traits are just stereotypes and cliches the trans/queer community are imposing on people. Sure, you want to be loved as a person and your personality (who doesn`t?) but you have a sexed body. That will be crucial in attraction and the relationship.
@@barryledgister4496 Umm, Idc about what body parts someone has.... Their gender is not their sex end of story. I'm attracted to gender not sex. (I'm Nonbinary, Aro/Ace-spec & pan)
@@mylife-23homosexual and heterosexual people are attracted based on sexual characteristic, not some made up inner feelings lol
Once again I will express my love for lesbian men
real
Right on! And all their lesbian girlfriends!
Once again I will express my love for meat eating vegans 🥰🥰🥰
I used to be one before realizing that I was transmasc. Like... I'm sure that lesbians wouldn't have minded being with me as I completely looked a girl anyway physically 💀💀💀💀
Felt this was missing something until about 5:57 when you came in like five hammers and smashed it. Wish I could like this video more than once.
Quick question, does this also mean I can be a non binary gay individual? I’m an amab and I like men, along with being non binary.
You`re a gay man. What does `non-binary` have to do with it?
@@MelanieMartinez17-hq1pk yes, I would say so. It’s pretty common to see gay enbies in the gay male community.
You definitely can. Some people also use terms like Turian, Vincian, and Achillean to describe.... queer attraction to men and nblm orientations.
Oh, cmon. This definition is nonsense. So imagine a non-man, a non-binary masculine AMAB person, attracted to another non-binary masculine AMAB person. Are they still lesbians? You could apply the same definition for a non-binary gay person, that this is a non-woman attracted to a non-woman. So then non-binary people who are attracted to each other are both gay and lesbian by these definitions since they are neither men nor women?! I understand wanting to be inclusive, but you should try to have some consistency.
No, edge cases don't invalidate a definition. All words are fuzzy on the edges, or we would need a million words to talk about everyday things, more words than our brains can handle
@@lezweron1506 I think maybe the definition should be amended as anyone on the female/femme side of the gender spectrum attracted to other members of the female/femme side of the gender spectrum. That way it would include non-binary lesbians, but exclude trans mascs or anyone else on the male/masc side of the gender spectrum.
Saying that women = femininity is as sexist as you could get
why does it matter what agab they are? they're non binary? that shouldn't invalidate anything or matter at all. If they identify themselves as lesbians then yes they're lesbians. And why do you care so deeply about how other people identify? It does not affect you at all.
If they see themselves as both gay and lesbian so what? It doesn't actually matter to you?
And sure labels can be messy and confusing and things can contradict each other if you look at very specific things like you did, but why does it matter? Let people use whatever label they want and don't try to fit everyone into need little rigid boxes.
A part of being queer is that you don't have to put everything in rigid things?
Ultimately it's about how people identify themselves and what want
@@SarastistheSerpent transmasc lesbians exist:)
A lesbian is someone who identifies as part of the lesbian community.
Leslie Feinberg was an idol to all of my friends who came of Queer age in the 90s and 00s and we poured over "Stone Butch Blues". Leslie Feinberg was transgender and used all pronouns, including he/him. Is Leslie Feinberg not considered a lesbian anymore? I think that's ridiculous.
Transgender people, of any assigned gender and identity, have always been a part of the lesbian community. It's not even gatekeeping anymore, they are actively *trying* to kick people out who have already been in the lesbian community since before they were born. It's ridiculous. Cis women who are exclusively attracted to cis women have no more claim to the "lesbian" label than anyone else.
Certainly, people have tried. In the 70s, there were arguments in lesbian feminist circles about the inclusion of trans women but the *majority* were accepting. It was only an argument *because* they were accepted and some people didn't want them to be -- same as some people are upset 50 years later.
There were also arguments about bi lesbians because originally, "lesbian" was a broad label but some radical feminists wanted it to exclude any association with men -- to the point of lesbian separatists forming their own women-only communes and trying not to interact with men at all. But being a lesbian is not about *not* being attracted to men in any way. Andrew Dworkin is a controversial figure but she was a bi lesbian married to a gay man. Orientation was complicated before too and in spite of people trying to gatekeep, bi lesbians continue to be valid.
Some trans men do identify as lesbians because they have been a part of the lesbian community and continue to be. They aren't women but nonbinary people who do not identify as women are also not women. "wlw" is a fine acronym for shorthand Sapphistry and "nmlnm" is an alternative but I don't see lesbian identity as being defined by who you are *not* attracted to. It's not about *not* identifying as a man and *not* being attracted to men. It's a positive association with other lesbians.
If you identify as a lesbian, you are a lesbian.
👏👏👏👏👏
I saw the word non-binary and clicked on the video. Finding out this doesn’t pertain to me cuz im aroace non-binary. 😅
As someone who’s Afab, and specifically nonbinary and lesbian, this video is nice to see.
I’m honestly so sick of seeing even other trans ppl or lesbians being so hateful because we don’t fit within their own concepts of a “norm.”
Like, personally it shouldn’t affect you if people are just existing as themselves.
Lesbians don`t want men invading their spaces. What`s so difficult to understand about that? `Lesbian men` and `non-binary lesbians` (who are men) are not just existing as themselves. Some of them are putting themselves into lesbian only spaces.
It's bad enough that queer people have been historically marginalized. Let's not stoop to the oppressors' level by making such identities rigidly defined. Thanks for posting Lynn! ❤
I saw you show a clip of Arielle Scarsella, and I have to say that I lost all respect for her when she came out as conservative. Conservative LGBT+ IMHO is like being a Jew that supports Hitler, or a black person in the KKK!
As for nonbinary lesbians... Hey, if you say that you're one, NOT MY PLACE TO JUDGE! I don't know enough about being nonbinary to say that NB's can't be gay/lesbian/whatever... And even if I did, I still wouldn't argue the point because, as I said, not my place to judge!
So why comment then? And conservative LGBT+ people obviously exist and can convincingly point to conservative governments (the Reagan era) as being the best time for their communities. The Jews were the victims of National SOCIALISM (i.e. left-wing ideas) and the links between the slavery and oppression of African Americans to the Dems are well documented. Stop bringing in truly oppressed people into the conversation about nonsense like `non-binary` people. No government will ever go after ` non-binary` people. Because they`re a joke.
This is why I just refuse to use labels for my gender identity or sexual orientation. To me, I am who I am and I like who I like. Labels can help so many peoplr but at the end of the day it is a label. You can change its definition for you and if you are not happy with the label thn just use a different one.
Love this! ❤️🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🌈
This is basically why I use the terms queer and genderqueer because to describe a specific gender and sexuality for me would take way too much effort lol.
So, something I want to weigh in on is that the usage of he/him pronouns DOES NOT immediately mean that someone identifies as being a man. Pronouns for many folks in the trans community (specifically nonbinary), pronouns can also feel like presentation rather than indicators of identity. I myself use he/him pronouns, but I don't identify as transman. I identify as transmasc, but transitioning to a masculine state is not the same as aligning with manhood. The idea that pronouns are inherent to gender still comes from binary ways of thinking about gender. Many of the he/him lesbians in history still identified with being women. Some of them probably would have used the word nonbinary in modern day. Other he/him lesbians identified with genderqueer. Cisnormavivity constantly teaches us pronouns are strictly used for binary gender when history in the Lgbt+ community has shown otherwise.
Humans witnessing a literal genocide: "I sleep."
Humans witnessing another person living their life in a way that affects absolutely no one else: "STOP THEM!"
"Non-man" huh....as a woman thats just disrespectful! By that logic, everything/everyone that is not a "man: is a "non man".. a cat is a non man, a pencil is a non man... imagine how frustrating and disrespectful it is to call women non man.
as an maverique mspec veldian/gay men - i hate and consider as queerphobia any exclusion of good faith identities. you may not understand how it works, but you can't consider it “not valid”. it's not your experience, everyone has their own experience, and any labels and combinations are valid (as long as the label itself doesn't suggest something extremely discriminatory and bigoted, or if it's not a cultural appropriation).
historically, the queer community as a whole can't be about exclusionism actually tbh
What is `maverique mspec veldian/gay men`? If you explain that to me, and it makes no sense, as I`m sure it will, I am totally free to think it is an invalid identity.
All identities are exclusionary...`non-binary` excludes `binary`, lesbian excludes straight men, lesbian excludes gay men.
By your logic, `African-American` identity is exclusionary and bigoted, and therefore invalid. Tell African-Americans that. And someone who identifies as a `p*dophile` because it`s their experience would be valid.
@@barryledgister4496that's not what exclusionary means
It's fine to be a non-binary and trans lesbian. And I wouldn't rule out dating someone I met irl and was friends with first who identified as one if there was connection first. I feel less safe on dating apps because of previous behaviour towards me by "gold-star" cis-lesbians before I fully understood my own queerness.
What's not OK is getting angry when another non-binary person, who's a different type of queer, doesn't want to go out with you because it's not compatible with their own s3xuality and gender expression. It's got the same energy as "straight" people going after non-binary folk and cis lesbians/gays trying to make bi's "pick a team"... It feels like a power play.
Like you said, it's great to know your own identity, it's not cool to invalidate other people's. We're not a match, move along to someone who is. End of conversation.
I'm genuinely trying to learn but also genuinely confused. If two AMAB non-binary people are in a relationship, should they be defined as a lesbian couple?
As a non binary bisexual, uh
100% nonbinary lesbians exist, however I personally feel that non-men loving non-men is too broad. As someone who is male-leaning AMAB enby if I was only attracted to women I would feel super uncomfy with calling myself a lesbian and I think generally speaking most ppl would be against it. My problem is I feel a lot of this expansive addition kinda only applies to AFABS which kinda feel invalidates a lot of people's genders. Also, considering there are tons of straight men who go like "I'm a lesbian too", so it's not really surprising that the lesbian/sapphic community feel uncomfortable with male identifying/male gender leaning ppl identify with the label. At least how I understand it we tend to define sexuality by gender rather than by sex, I feel to do otherwise would be problematic. But what other reason is there for the fact that trans men and other at least partly man/male identified ppl are even being considering. Personally, I feel a trans man saying they're a lesbian should be seen the same way as cis men saying they're a lesbian, as gross and fetishizing.
I somewhat agree. I think a better definition would be anyone on the female/feminine side of the gender spectrum attracted to other members of the female/feminine side of the gender spectrum, irrespective of gender expression. That would include literally everyone (cis and trans women, trans femme-enbys and even butch enbys who present as masc but ID as femme) while excluding all men, cis and trans, male-leaning enbies, and femboys
Im a non binary lesbian awaiting top surgery, your videos are a big comfort! Thank you for making content here. ❤❤
So you`re `non-binary`, going out of your way to look more masculine and yet want to be a `woman who loves` women`. Got it.
@@barryledgister4496Barry, you have 100 comments on this channel. Get a job
I'm more attractted to woman and I'm trans demi girl. I still think im sapphic than lesbian cause for me sapphic is just lesbian but includign all female gender expressions. Hope that makes sense.
It very much depends on your definitions. Classically, 'lesbian' means 'a woman who is attracted to other women'. By that definition, there cannot be such a thing as a 'non-binary lesbian', because they are not *women*, by their own definition. This is, until recently, the definition that I accepted and understood, so I was definitely a person who would say 'There's no such things as an enby Lesbian."
However, if your definition is 'a gender other than male being attracted to a woman' or 'a gender other than male being attracted to a gender other than male', then it makes perfect sense. Definitions matter a lot.
If we define the term "lesbian" this way, is it completely synonymous with "Sapphic?" 🤔
this was a very thought provoking video. i liked it.
i am a non-binary lesbian!😇
Thank you, this video has been validating and super helpful with non-men loving non-men.
NB Demi AREO/ACE, trans, lesbian. Soup but it is nice to have a definition as with it comes understanding.
AMAB, trans. After stealthing as a woman for nearly a decade with the power of Autistic hyperfocus, tried to move to exclusively they/them, but my fem presentation was too strong and didn't want to fight the "pronoun war" so made everyone more comfy with "they/she".
Then switched to a male version of my name, finally started to get my beard removed but opted to keep a PCOS pattern and grow it out... I think it funny everyone now thinks I am an egg or closeted FtM! =oD
Am trying to get back into the dating scene and figure out if "Lesbian" still fits, both because I'm no longer stereotypically female and I find myself attracted to everyone save the cis-males... so defining lesbian as non-male/non-male is extremely helpful, thank you =o)
as a nonbinary lesbian, thank you for making this video! :D
I'm a lesbian and I'm genderfluid. My gender identity and expression fluctuate over time between hyper-feminine and agender/androgenous.
But appearently just aknowledging this fluctuation will earn you the ire of transphobes. A few years ago a transphobe, who was pretending online to be a caricature of trans women, picked a fight with me cause they were like "You can't be non-binary and a lesbian" and demanded I either change the "genderfluid" part of of my bio or remove the "lesbian" part. I did not comply. I tried explaining that I'm AFAB and I do not identify as a man in any shape or form, nor would I wish to transition to be a man. For all intents and purposes, I would fit the mold of the concept of "biological woman" that transphobes keep pushing (well, based on their misunderstanding of biology anyways). Then all the sudden "biology" didn't matter any more to the transphobe in question who got really pissed and accused me of being just as bad as "the men pretending to be women". That was when I blocked this person, who I would have blocked sooner had they not initially tried to trick me into thinking they were trans. Their bio (which I only noticed just prior to banning them) was a dead giveaway for me as they described themselves in a way that I've never seen actual trans people do in their bios.
I had been expecting transphobes to show up at some point and try to undermine my identity as a lesbian as I'm attracted to both cis women, trans women and also non-binary folks who are feminine enough for my taste. (I'm not attracted to men, cis or trans.) I did not expect my gender identity to become such a big deal, especially since the biggest impact it has on other people IRL is that they have to put up with my questionable fashion choices. Lol.
But all in all, I think gender policing is ridiculous, both within the lesbian/sapphic community and the LGBTQ+ community as a whole cause aren't our communities supposed to be safe havens where we can be free from the relentless gender policing that the rest of society/culture imposes on us? Also, as far as I can tell the sapphic community has a long history of acceptance of gender non-conformity. Butch lesbians have been around for ages, femme lesbians, lesbians with an androgynous presentation etc. Also, before our current-day trans terminology, a lot of trans and non-binary people would have found community among gay men and lesbians cause in many cases these would have been the communities available to them that would have been the most accepting of them. Different types of queerness and gender non-conformity existing side by side in our communities has been the norm for a long time... and that's what's so beautiful about our communities.
💗🌈💗
Lynn, does that mean if Sam Smith and Alok Vaid-Menon dated that they would be a lesbian couple? Technically they’re both non-men since they’re both nonbinary.
I don’t think either of them identify as trans femme though, at least as far as I’m aware. Sam Smith I know for a fact has stated they don’t identify with either side of the gender spectrum
Hahaha...they`d be a gay couple...why are queer/trans people so intent on erasing gayness?
Nonbinary is not a monolith and we do not all have the same experiences with gender. Someone who is nonbinary can have any sexual orientation. I’m a nonbinary lesbian that is dating a nonbinary lesbian. We exist. Does that mean those two people you mentioned are lesbians?That depends on how they feel and identify. Even if you don’t understand it, you can at least have some solidarity and give respect.
@@petty.artist 😂
Why even watch this video if what you want to do is hate on us? There are better ways to spend your time
Please take care of yourself ⭐⭐
I mean, I would count as a trans enby lesbian and it's not wierd, fluid, yes but just let people be
So, ive asked this question because i don't understand how you can be both.
Webster': lesbian:
denoting or relating to women who are sexually or romantically attracted exclusively to other women, or to sexual attraction or activity between women.
So, maybe a different word than lesbian would make more sense and be more accepted.
I am a gay man and I feel like there is a bit of dishonesty when it comes to this kind of topic, and I can sense it every time. There’s a tendency to pretend we’re not part of the social world, as if we don’t need to make any compromises, even at the cost of seeming completely unreasonable.
Do you really think the term “no-man” makes sense? I feel the dishonesty deep in my bones. “Female” non-binary people who are lesbians love women. It’s as simple as that. They are attracted to women, not “no-men.” I don’t understand why people are so afraid to admit that they’re attracted to women. And if someone identifies as non-binary, you’re still attracted to women. AND THA'S OKAY!!!! That’s what it means to be a lesbian: a woman who loves another woman.
You can be whatever you want, beyond gender and so on, but it’s childish and embarrassing to hear someone say “no-man” because they’re so afraid of offending non-binary individuals.
The “just have respect” point is TIRING. If something doesn’t make any sense, it doesn’t deserve respect, just like religious beliefs. You can have your beliefs, but I am absolutely within my right to say they’re illogica and nonsensical.
Just be more intellectually honest!
True but I am also in my power to call your argument illogical. The point is that the term non-men includes those who are not not women but not men. This could include both AMAB (assign male at birth, AFAB (assigned female at birth), and intersex people who identify outside the binary gender norms. I can see an argument that it is pretty stupid to have words to define someone's sexual attraction based on your own gender identity because your gender identity should not determine your sexuality. If you are a man then it should have no bearing on who you like because you like who you like. Counter argument to that is that the treatment between men liking other men and men liking women are not equal and as such having a distinction makes sense. Likewise, it makes sense to make a distinction between people who are non-binary and those who are men or women because treatment is not equal between those groups. Furthermore, we can also discuss how these identities (sexual orientation and gender identity) are social constructs that only can be descriptive instead of prescriptive because they reflect an internal self and not the external self. Only a person internally knows their gender identity and sexual orientation and can outwardly express them as they see fit. All in all, I think it is helpful to change the definition of lesbian to non-men loving other non-men. I would also like to see a similar change to gay too though.
@@tauntingeveryone7208 The fact there has been no change to the definition of `gay man` sums up the misogyny of both `non-binary` men and `trans women` (men) who want to redefine lesbians in order to invade their spaces. Nobody is saying `non women` loving `non women` for gay men to appease `non-binary` women and `trans men`. Of course it`s ludicrous, and it`s been rejected. You can`t change definitions of people outside of you based on internal feelings...`non-binary` is a total fail, and has been rejected by people outside the bubble. Accept that...and move on.
@@tauntingeveryone7208 It seems that non-binary people are always desperately searching for labels to assign to themselves and changing common definitions just because they have a deeply subjective perception of themselves that is not recognized by social reality. I hope that non-binary people are always aware of living in the real world and not just in their heads, where, like in a fantasy story, they can be whatever they want, avoiding the responsibility of living in this world.
The fear that this fantasy will be shattered is clearly visible in terms like AFAB and AMAB. It's so forced and artificial that it really feels like the work of a child, and I would feel bad about breaking the magic, worried they might start crying.
And one last thing: leave intersex people alone, as they have a real medical condition to deal with.
As someone who is nonbinary and lesbian, I have not really come out as nonbinary yet. I just only like women, and I don’t really tend to have an attraction to guys. It just feels uncomfortable when somebody makes fun of what I am without knowing
I'm an AMAB enby who still presents pretty masc (partially out of fear of exploring my feminine side) and connects a lot with "lesbian" as an identity but I don't know if I can ever publicly call myself that because I feel like literally every "real" lesbian (as defined by my negative self-talk) out there will immediately call me a creepy man who's just fetishizing lesbianism, and I constantly worry that they're right. As much as I'm fairly certain of my non-binaryness, part of me always feels like I'm trying to "cheat" my way out of being a straight man and dodge responsibility for the sins of my assigned gender, and I can't advocate for myself or my own identity because I'll come across as a punchline at best ("look at this loser who thinks he can get p***y by pretending not to be a man") and a threat at worst.
Idk if this makes any sense and I'm definitely not trying to bash any lesbians or queer people in general, or downplay the fact that straight men have caused a lot of negative experiences for a lot of them and they're honestly probably justified in being suspicious of me; this is just kinda about my own fears based on over a decade of being chronically online in spaces where queer discourse is happening
Being non binary, gender fluid, and having masc days, and feminine days I feel this video so much. I mean yes outwardly I am female (I can't afford a binder) but that doesn't make me any less valid of a lesbian whether I idenity as male or female. As you said our experiences vary from person to person.
0:34 Technically trans men can be lesbians too. Usually and/or just because they used to identify as lesbian before they realized they were/came out as trans and they still feel a connection to the community/experience, but yeah!
Edit: I hadn't watched further to the point you mentioned them, my bad! And actually I 100% agree with you. I'm not a trans man (although I'm a lesbian/at least sapphic) but I personally don't know how to feel about trans men identifying as lesbians, but the reasons I gave above are the most common I've gotten, so yeah.
Like i think it's important that we don't justify kicking trans people out of communities they helped build and are apart of because they transition. Most trans men don't want to be directly associated with the lesbian community after transition but it's important that that is up to their individual choice and comfort.
@@franciszekdo Yeah, that's fair!
im non binary bisexual and this feels really nice to hear even thought im not lesbian it feels great to hear non bonarys who are lesbian vailed
@@syreyamoreno8945 I always wonder why the conversation surrounds nonbinary lesbians and not other orientations like nonbinary bisexual, pansexual, gay, etc. I assume it’s because lesbian is the only identity that doesn’t include men and it makes people uncomfortable to think about a person who can’t be construed to be about men in either their sexuality or gender. Anyways, that’s just a rant I have. Nonbinary bisexual and nonbinary lesbian solidarity! We are both valid and nobody harping on us with how they want us to be will take away our happiness when we are ourselves
The 'nonman x nonman' definition is still not that inclusive. There are genderfluid and otherwise multigender individuals who don't fit that definition, but are still lesbians. I feel iffy saying this stuff in a TH-cam comment section, but as a guy adjacent lesbian 'nonman x nonman' harms me. I consider myself to be transmasc agender, and sometimes call myself a trans man, and I'll try to explain it by starting off with this simple phrase: the 'rules' we hold queer people to are just as made up as the 'rule' of heterosexual cisness.
Things just happen; my gender is more complicated than these rigid definitions of sexuality allow, and to break the gender binary and believe that gender is a construct also means to view sexuality the same way. Queer people get complicated, which is why you end up with dudes and dude adjacent and sometimes dudes identifying as lesbians. To enforce any sexuality or gender on someone is to uphold rigid rules that not everyone can keep up with.
I've always seen my interest in women as queer since I've discovered it, and no amount of 'you're just straight lol' can change that. There's a wall between straightness and me that there isn't with lesbianism. I cannot classify myself as a straight man because I'm not one. I feel the most vindicated, the most comfortable, when I identify as a lesbian dude, a lesboy if you will. Once you realize there are no real rules to these things, you stop having identity crises every few months like I was. I can finally accept myself.
So yeah TLDR: identity gets complicated.
I'm also just butch. And maybe being autistic doesn't help, but yeah. Identity is a collection of water color paintings, and for me there are blended colors and abstract shapes everywhere.
@@Generic_emo_username The fact that nobody has replied to your two self-loving comments in 10 hours should tell you just how nonsensical people think you are.
@@barryledgister4496 whomp whomp
Well, what are we supposed to call ourselves? What other label is there for nonbinary people who love women and other nonbinary people?
Trixic and Neptunic. They certainly don’t have as much awareness but maybe the more people use them, that could change. Trixic is a nonbinary person loving women, neptunic is a nonbinary person loving women, feminine nonbinary people and neutral nonbinary people.
@@elking8373 I just feel like the main point of a label is to raise awareness and unite a community, so using a label no one knows and then explaining it every time isn't that helpful. You do you though use whatever label you want
@@snapdragonslair Neptunic is technically under the bi umbrella, trixic can be lesbian or bi. As soon as we deconstruct that bi doesn’t mean man + woman, or man + woman + nonbinary, and can exclude men, we are unfortunately pigeonholed into micro labels. Bi means same and different gender, not necessarily all different genders.
I understand wanting to belong to the lesbian community over the bi one, as someone who doesn’t want to hear women gush over their boyfriends or bedroom encounters with men.
@@elking8373 eh I just use sapphic, gay, queer, lesbian, etc. It's just easier to me
@@snapdragonslair I agree with that and use it often! Sapphic includes all sexualities that feature and/or prioritize women.
I'm with you, Lynn! All of it!
You're so right about language evolving!
Say it with me: STOP GATEKEEPING! We define ourselves, and we're all valid!
Language evolves organically, not by fanatical ideologues manipulating and distorting language to service their personal, ideological beliefs. It's not 'gatekeeping' to question and challenge that when it has an effect on the lives and rights of other people. 'Gatekeeping' is just a convenient buzzword to shut down critique and debate. It implies that other people have no right to assert their boundaries or define themselves, and that only your perspective and feelings are valid. It's completely narccicistic and anti-social. I'll call out anyone calling women 'non-men' or men 'women' or 'lesbians' all day every day.
@@Mel-wn9gbyou should really touch grass and read a book on language. Language evolves and changes. Furthermore science improves our understanding of the world and influences our language. Your rant is as logical as saying that people need to stop calling it gatekeeping for wanting to keep Plato as a planet. We made definitions and we should not change them. Basically your argument boils down to it is wrong to say that I want to progress. It is okay to question definitions and ask if the definition needs to be expanded. However it is not okay to state that this should be how things should be because we have always done it this way. That is a fallacy of tradition right there.
@@tauntingeveryone7208 That was a comment, not a rant. You're the one ranting at me now, just because you don't agree with me. And how do you even know it's a rant? If I say it's not a rant then it's not a rant, right? 🤔 Now please quote me where I said "this is how it should be because this is how we've always done things". I said language evolves organically, not via intentional manipulation by ideologues for ideological reasons, especially when the ideology is so problematic and effects other people's lives and rights. There's no science to demonstrate the state of being 'cis', 'trans', 'binary', 'nonbinary' or any other 'gender'. That's ideology, not fact - the ideology of sexism to be precise. Nothing to do with progress. And I wouldn't be talking about logic if I were you. There are so many logical flaws to 'gender', which is half the reason I find the topic so interesting. It's good exercise for the brain.
@@Mel-wn9gb Here come the insults...or the insult, as these nonsense videos get little engagement.
As I always say "pigeonholing doesn't work!" Why put people in boxes? Everybody is unique, just let them be themselves!
So stop putting people in boxes with all this 'gender' bullshit then.
@@Mel-wn9gbI agree we should stop focus on people's gender and just respect whatever they say they are.
@@tauntingeveryone7208 If they say they're a 'gender' then that's not just about them though. It's about defining *all of us* in terms of sex stereotypes. I don't respect sexism.
I think allot of it comes down to people trying to make some words have literally no meaning. Words definitions are changed to accommodate people feelings rather then facts. So those that have fit within these definitions feel like their identity is being erased.
Yes speech does evolve, though why not come up with new terminology, rather then mod already well established terms? What it comes down to is the joke us boys made in the 90's when we met a lesbian for the first time "I'm a lesbian too" anyone can say it, but doesn't mean women have to accept you.
@TheShockedboy PERIOD!
This is so disrespectful to women, especially to real lesbians (women or should I say females who are sexually/romantically attracted to other females only)
Why can’t folks understand that your gender & your sexuality can be completely different?! 🥺
Didn't know you can be nonbinary and lesbian until now lol
As a trans lesbian can confirm the gatekeeping is REAL!!!!!
But to your point about language there is no word in English anymore that means literally, the Oxford dictionary added "figurative" as a bullet to literal .... I'm such a boomer .....
I wouldnn´t date you.
You are a man.
lot of transphobes in my country are obssesed with language purity
or when it comes to homophobes none of them has even good arguments against equal marriages (we don't have them unfortenatelly) and like bruh
I offended and got labeled as the loud annoying gay cause I told some homophobes that I want equal marriages lol
Yes..fight for equal marriage..what has `language purity` got to do with that? That`s just nonsense the LGBTQIA+ community is wrapped up with in the US/Canada and a few other places. Hopefully you will get those equal rights...and that`s it. Don`t start fighting for nonsense like `non-binary` gender identities...
That moment when you falsely equate being gnc and being nonbinary
The whole nb community is basically a gender roles fandom
stop this nonsense pls
Lynn can`t stop. it`s her grift.
maybe just be yourself and stop trying to be a part of a distant community, live your life
It’s really unfair if you to make it about the way people are. And then show images of people who are actually haters.
The vast majority of the lesbian community that has a problem with NBs saying they are lesbians isn’t about the vast majority of NB lesbians.
It’s about the very masculine NBs that have a very heteronormative approach.
They are commonly the very same people who are disparaging of binary trans lesbians.
The problem of prejudice is not against NB’s that are attracted to non men, it is the NB’s prejudice against binary trans women especially when they are lesbians.
This is a non issue other than a few NB trans who think being binary (being a woman) is some kind of problem.
us fellow enbies gotta look out for each other 🫡
3:58 as a trans lesbian, this makes me very sad :c
I wouldn´t date a trans woman.
You are a man.