DaVinci Wide Gamut vs ACES: Which do you choose?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ม.ค. 2022
- Color management is a diverse topic, and ACES gets a lot of attention... but what about the solution built by DaVinci Resolve? In this video you'll learn:
- The fundamental problem that color management solves
- How to set up a project using DaVinci Wide Gamut/Intermediate, especially if you're new to color management
- Some differences between ACES and Resolve Color Management
- What to consider when choosing what you should use for your project
Want to dive deeper? View the live Q&A here: • Grade School: ACES vs ...
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Oh boy, I hope Blackmagic Designs had hired you to write up the manuals of Davinci Resolve. Thank you so much for your concise and illuminating explanations!
Excellent video. Keep in mind ACES is the standard at this time for delivering to Netflix, Disney, etc. However, wide gamut will be the next standard for future proofing your work according to DaVinci Resolve's color management advisor who wrote the book on it. This is because the future may display more color outside rec 709. and if you need to output rec 2020, 2100, etc. for projectors this is what is recommended.
All cameras with no exception see in linear colorspace (except this line, your video is fantastic). log is what their manufacturers thinks or have found out with careful experiments and research , can retain most meaningful data which can later be manipulated by a skilled colorist. this is why they debayer this data to certain log space. all logspaces are (well almost) are loosely based on kodak cineon curve that was developed in early 90s demanded by VFX houses such as ILM (they themselves helped in that ). DI was non existent at that time, but for compositing people were shifting to digital computers from optical printers and data bandwidth was limited, jokingly it is still limited (because resolution multifolded)and we still use log. when DI came and then fully electronic high resolution cinema cameras came, cineon standard was followed and similar curves were developed. now in biggest post houses and VFX studios aces EXRs are backbone of post work, which is a linear format. acescc, and acescct were developed because compositing works in linear space. double the light intensity double the energy of that light in scene, but colorist go with human eye which has non linear vision, thus these spaces are non linear(you can work in linear colorspace inside baselight or resolve but lift gamma gain are behave differently than what you are used to). early video cameras had fixed circuitry to convert linear to rec601/709 colors and signal was usable for human vision, but now they have given flexibility to a colorist to manipulate signal before converting to rec709/2020. ACES encompass all human visible colors, someone mentioned below that davinci colorspace is more future proof, its not. ACES has slight different primaries which are not RGB thus filmlight has their colorspace, davinci has its, but these are not superior just subjectively better in some scenarios. just like a volo truck steering wheel has different non linearity than a mercedes sedan, but that does not make other inferior, but best suited for each (interchanging them can turn ugly or beautiful). our eyes and its link to our brains is a very very complex device and color scientists, colorists, cinematographers with help of directors, painters, production designers are just trying to manipulate it to make image look beautiful. had we had a CMOS sensor in our eye we wouldn't have needed all this stuff.
I love all the technical explanations you provide. I love practical approaches but I also love to understand what is happening in the background. Definitely tickles my learning style :)
What a great morning with this beautiful and informative video tutorial by Cullen Kelly! Thank YOU!
i just want to say thank you for everything you do on youtube, it saves me a lot of time and shorten my journey, even though there is a language barrier but i understand you very well since i already familiar with DaVinci, thank you.
Thank you, Cullen! Informative and encouraging to find one's own creative work flow.
I found this explanation very helpful to get a fuller understanding of colour management in Davinci Resolve. It was also, good to see the comparison between DCM and ACES and the differences in the results. I have experimented with this myself in the past, assuming that they are both designed to produce the same result from the same input when the same output setting has been chosen. And then noticing that there was a distinct difference between the way the two colour management processes output the displayed result. It has been encouraging to get confirmation of this.
Great video! I was just discussing ACES vs DaVinci Management with a friend. Looking forward to the next stream.
Excellent explanation. I really do appreciate as much as your other tutorials. Very clear and straight to the point. Thank you so much.
Cheers Richard
That was awesome, I was actually planning to test DWG so your video comes in super handy for how to setup the whole thing :)
Brilliantly done Cullen !
Cullen, gracias por explicarme el lío de los espacios de color. Ahora lo tengo más claro
Thank you for this video! Just purchased your ebook. Excited to read it.
The difference in available input transforms is the primary reason I use RCM over ACES. I feel like I can grade around my output transform’s contrast level, but I don’t really want to guess around my input transform.
Very clear and powerful info about a not so clear matter. Thanks a lot! A new subscriber here
One of the esthetical differences to my knowledge is that Aces tends to desaturate the highlights to make the image look more reminiscent of how the human eye perceives the world.
Can we see your source for this?
@@cevxj Source: Eyeballs.
This is all the reason anyone needs to understand that ACES is superior to RCM. There's no competition - ACES just looks better, period.
@@doworksonism Would agree with this!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Bravo ! Clear, simple and "efficace" !
Excellent explanation. Thanks.
Hello Cullen,
thank you for all your incredibly good tutorials, some of the best you can find on youtube! Do you maybe have an idea how I can add additional input space to the list? For example, I want add the gamut for my Mavic Air2S so that I can keep this kind of transform, because your motto is, among other things, everything as simple as possible. ;-)
Thanks and regards!
Thanks for sharing this awesome info!!!
you are are clear as water's spring. so much making sense. thx
I was NOT planning on watching a 14 min video. But this was genius simple explanation. Great job!
Is there a setting to make sure my grade captures all the dynamic range stops available in my camera?
And is it still recommended to use College Management when you used a LUT (not baked) during filming with the look you want?
The most important difference between these two are in regards to having or not having a full image processing pipeline from start to finish. ACES DOES have a full post production pipeline of color management designed to get consistent results every time regardless of software, RCM does not.
If you are not engaging in a full, large scope pipeline, then it will be a matter of taste really (preference for controls, initial output, etc.). But, for larger projects with VFX vendors etc., better stick with ACES to avoid headaches and in some cases, it is mandatory to work in ACES. As an ex-VFX worker, IMO, its definitely in your best interest to have at least a functional knowledge of ACES (And I mean the full above the line crew, not just the colorist) even if you do prefer RCM for whatever reason that might be.
Good to see more and more people talking about Color Management!
Thanks for this!
awesome class sir♥️
Good lesson Cullen! I have a question about one of previewed lesson and I'm looking for. In thatt lesson you change the color space node and you use RGB mixer in a different way thank you
Demystified it for me - Thanks
Fantastic video, just a question though - I'm shooting SLOG2 - SGAMMUT cine 3 picture profile on A7iii , what workflow should i use in this case because both aces and dwg have only one selection (either gammut3 or slog2) - both are inacurrate when tested against my normal workflow (Input Color Space :Sony S-Gamut3, Input Gamma : Sony S-Log2) when using cst on timeline for each clip
Thanks for the video Cullen. Can you also make a video on how to work with VFX under ACES pipeline? I mean the correct way to prepare EXR files for VFX in under Aces color management.
Gracias, excelente explicacion.
Hello Cullen new on the channel and thanks for the great content. I was wondering what workflow do you have when the footage has already a lut attached to the footage .Ex BM prores file with in camera LUT integrated .Is it possible to use color management to transform it to davinci color space or there is nothing else we can do? Should I in that case only make minor adjustments and bland it together to other prores log files and braw file? Thanks
Great learning resource, Cullen.. been working my way through your vids. Question.. at 10:55 you right click and can change the input color space of a particular clip.. but I'm not seeing that option when I do the same. Its not there. Has this changed in version 18?
very great communicator
Thank you. Everything is very clear. In the company I work we mostly use ACES, however I am not a fan, since Davinci tools become funky in a way.
This proves that size doesn't matter :) Amazing video. Thank you. ACES is so clearly superior.
Hey Cullen, thanks for dropping this video. Although you are describing what you are doing and you audio on your voice sounds great, I do have a little problem reading the screen at that resolution. Would be cool if you could zoom in when you edit this. Might be okay for some of your younger followers, but a tad tough for me to read after youTube has dealt with it.
If this is a topic for your Grade School.
My question is if you are developing a look for a project for use in the on set display. What is the set-up to send them off with a display lut to use?
Seems to me that the LUT wouldn't have the same information if you used ACES or Resolve Management. So then do we make a look in regular Resolve and use CSTs? ( sandwich ) - Do CSTs save out to a LUT?
What about when the footage is captured? I would imagine it would be in LOG, so the look display - is processed with or without the LOG to rec CST?
Might all sound simple, but somehow in this process, I get a little confused as to the approach to sharing the look and color management in that role.
Hey Cullen great information and delivery! The only thing I would like to see is shorter videos like this, dont get me wrong your livestreams are extremly valuable but cause of the long form of the matter I cant always watch through it on a busy day. So maybe shorter and more videos with content from the livestreams?! Dunno...What ever you do I am pretty sure its gonna be great!
You might also consider assigning input color space under Media to tag up all raw media clips available in the project, and not just the ones picked out to a timeline at the moment you grade something in Color.
Hey cullen I start as a beginner colorist, If I need to Mastarclass for senior colorist? or TH-cam video follow , other thing book reading? what should i do at this stage?
Thanks for the video! I lately started to work in an aces workflow for my projects. Works really nice i i've got some great results, but when exporting i've got a gamma shift (everything is darker). What do i do wrong? When in CM DWG you had a box with "709 gamma 2.4", in aces only 709 and 709(d60) shows up. Is the problem lying there? Many thanks!
Thank you for this, I've been unhappy with my Red Komodo footage and the Aces workflow makes a big difference in the color fidelity IMHO.
Fantastic video! But Cullen, when my deliverable isn't rec709 gamma 2.4 but instead theatrical release (cinema projector, DCP). What should the output color space be then? Thank you!
People are forgetting that inside DWG you can use a transform for ACES. I almost regret looking at hours of other youtubers stuff. That’s how good your videos are.
so just work in DWG timeline and then at the end CST to ACES??
The new ODT for REC.709 inside ACES 2.0 it's very similar to DWG 2 REC.709
@@TheVDAPDo you know ETA of ACES 2.0?
Mind blowing !! :-)
Oh yeah, what a difference is Aces, I've been seeing all your Aces videos and with this one finally my two neurones available for video editing could understand how to use it for 709/sRGB photocam vids 😂 Thank you!
UR THA MAN THANK YOU
Can you give the log footages which you are using or some other log footages for practice
which output transform would i use for a 2022 macbook pro monitor
Cullen, I shoot with Fuji and DJI for drone, these cameras are not in the dropdown menu for aces approach, what can I use to get the best results then?
I have Davinci Resolve Studio 18, but when I right click I do not have the option like you do of "Input Color Space". Do you know why or have any recommendations of what to do in this situation?
Thank you Cullen! Again greatly explained. Do have an advice on which way to pick with Z CAM footage shot in Zlog2 as it is not officially listed? 🤨
@@CullenKelly Sounds awesome! How could I get my hands on your DCTL?
@@CullenKelly perfect, looking forward 🙏🏻
You are amazing
Is this color management thing for log footage only?
it work on my pc thx bro vеry much
What if I have log and non-log footage, can I still use RCM or ACES? Thanks.
Would we still need to add two CST's after we set up a Color management through the project settings?
Hey Josh! If your color management is setup in the project settings, you wont need the CST's. You can think of it as two separate ways to do your color management, project based and node based!
Hello! I shoot on BMPCC4K in raw and there is no menu option on clips to choose input color space for clips. I believe it is automatic for raw files. I use Datacolor Spyder checkr24 color chart for color match but if I'm in HDR Davinci wide gamut intermediate, color match is not working good. Maybe Davinci wide gamut needs different settings for color match. Do you have any suggestion on how to use color match in HDR Davinci wide intermediate? Thanks
What kind of arrialexa and lens
Cullen, thank you so much for this, subscribed instantly. I noticed you use a mac and hoping you can help with the color shift mac users experience when exporting in Rec.709 for videos to be used online like TH-cam. There's a hundred or more videos on YT telling us how to fix this and they all differ and most don't work. I'm also very surprised BMD hasn't come up with a document of settings to easily setup our Mac DR for this. Do you have suggestions or a video on how to ensure the output of our Render matches what we are seeing in the DR viewer which we graded? I have checked the general preferences boxes that some TH-camrs mention (Use Mac display color profiles for viewers, and Automatically tag Rec.709 Scene clips as Rec.709A), and what I noticed was the DR viewer is now showing the washed out look which I was seeing on my exports (which at least they are the same now) but this leads to other issues when I grade that washed out image in DR because the scopes go whacky once I add more saturation and contrast. I'm praying you have a clear way of how to setup resolve for us mac users so we can just move on and be creative. thank you so much
@@CullenKelly Thank you for the follow up and for making your LUT available. Couple questions. 1) Should I still use DR color managed if previous footage was shot using Cine2. I'm using an 8bit camera and didn't think SLOG footage would work well. 2) if answer to 1 is yes what should I set the Color Processing Mode and Output color space to (in the project settings). thank you so much again.
If I were to use this color management system and I wanted to grade my clips as-well. How does that work? When I grade, am I applying the grade after the CST?
I was always told to grade before the CST for best results.
If the answer is - "If you plan to grade, do not apply an input color space."
Why use a color managed project to begin with?
What are the common outputs besides REC 709 Gamma 2.4?
The Key Feature you brought Light on was something I never thought Exists, like adjust the Opacity of the Whole thing using Key Output Gain😲Was😲Jaw😲Dropping😲to the Floor.
@@CullenKelly 🤣🤩🤣🤩Absolutely
Cullen, this is great. Quick q? If working in Resolve Color Management (Wide Gamut Intermediate), Log C is my source, would I then use CST Cineon before adding the Resolve Kodak d60 LUT? Input now in CST would be?? Will it maintain wide gamut? I have only used CST in non color managed workflows at the end of my node tree. Log C to Cineon most common for me. Thank you!
@@CullenKelly This is what I have been looking for clarification on. Please can you let me know the video where you discuss this or give me more clarification. If we are using RCM 1) then does this eliminate the need for any CST and 2) you are saying that even with a CST you can't use LUTs 3)if im wrong then what settings would you put as your input in the CST (arri log c, or would it be DWG?) and then output to cineon?
Just a question about the reason why you set the Timeline color space to Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 when using the "custom"color processing mode? Wouldn''t this mean that the clips would be immediately converted from the set input color space to Rec.709 before the first node? If I want to work (all nodes) in the DaVinci Wide Gamut color space (so your Elements LUTs work properly for instance), shouldn't I change the timeline color space from Rec.709 to daVinci WG/Intermediate instead? I may have misunderstood where this happens in the "node-tree chain".
Excellent tutorials as always!
@@CullenKelly Thanks Cullen! I’m really enjoying this series (as well). Your teaching style is very engaging, detailed and easy to follow.
Cullens answer is just missing?
@@sabrinoor weird. Perhaps he removed it. From memory I think he said this was an error in the video.
Dear Cullen, I think I ve watched your video now three times. My issues is, how ever I set up everything like in 8:10 manually or 10:26 custom preset, my CIE Chromatictiy always shows REC709. Like I am not sure whether I edit in DWG or rec709.
Only if I change my Outputcolorspace Like in 10.26 to Dawinci Intermediate then my CIE shows DWG. But I think its wrong...all color correction (which works perfectly fine) is gone or looks far off.
So Color managed works, but I am not sure if I edit in DWG,.
I also tried CST in and Out but never I see it in the CIE Skope.
Would love to understand this.
Thank you :)
Is there any technical benefit in using on over the other way? Or is in the end like you said important to see that color management way works best to achieve the look I am going for!?
@@CullenKelly Thanks for getting back there
Just 1 question
I’m working on a project at the moment I do the cinematography as well as the color grading, I’ve shot the entire project using ARRI Alexa Mini LF\ArriRaw and some fight scenes I’ve used Red Komodo\R3D also we’ve Green Screen\VFX work.
My question is :
is Resolve YRGB friendly with VFX workflow same as ACES ?
I’ve been missing around with Resolve YRGB and really loved how wide the gamut is, in my cinematography style for this project I’ve shot in a super low key and extremely dark situations for a story proposes, ACES is always punshy and contrasty for my eyes.
Just wanna make sure if Resolve color management is user friendly with VFX workflow or not.
Thanks in advance 🙏🏻
Good Question, I think Cullen has discussed that already though. The answer that I remember is that you need to discuss it with whomever is doing the VFX. If another software is involved to do the VFX ( After Effects, Blender etc. ) the chances of them even having Davinci color management would be pretty low. ACES is now in all kinds of software and easily available. So the answer I took from that is to create a good line of communication and ask them what they want and give it to them and then deal with it when it comes back to you to grade.
How would I do this using CSTs? Im new to color and want to dive in, but early in I don't like the color managed workflow and like to work with CSTs instead... I like to group each Profile (group all SLOG Clips and then apply a PreGroup Node with a CST from SLOG3 to ACES, then grade in each Clip and each Clip or in the PostGroup apply another CST to get from ACES back to REC709)
Should I use DaVinci YRGB and set the Timeline to ACEScct and the Output to Rec709?
Or should I use a Color Managed Workflow?
Or should I use ACES from the start in the Project Settings?
Hope someone can help me out and sorry if these questions are stupid... I am new to it.
What is the difference from the color management settings you explained in the video to the color space transformation you can apply to a node? Is this the same? Thanks in advance!
IMO.. the Color transforms via the nodes just helps you work in a modular system... in Resolve, like most other DCC apps, there are always different workflows to achieve same result... what is most important is understanding technically, what is hapenning.. so you can always mix and match depending on your project needs... this is my 2cents on it
Hello! What is my correct ACES output transform in the project settings for a macbook m1 (XDR, P3-1600 nits)? There are P3 options there, but none with matching Details..thanx for any info! also there´s no matching input transform for BM pocket 4k film..do i just choose black magic design film or choose nothing? ACES does the transform as needed?
@@CullenKelly Thank you cullen! So i´ll have to get another monitor..about the input: theres no option for "4k film" in Aces Project..but if it´s shot on a black magic camera, davinci/ACES should recognise the correct input any way without choosing one?
Hi Cullen,
can you refer me to the technical reasons of the different color reproduction/presentation for both systems? Is it "just" some Transform difference?
And also - how does DaVinci Color Management work for a bigger production environments, where you use multiple tools / and multiple facilities are involved? ACES (with OCIO) seems to be addressing this in a more open-source and pipeline friendly way.
I'm shooting Nikon N-log. Since it is not available as an ACES input tranform option, is there an alternative option for it, or should I just stick with wide gamut color management?
Oh, you're covering this later on the video!
no Aces input for Braw Files, Whats The Option ?
Fantastic overview. So frequently Resolve feels like We just got a brand new Space Shuttle for free. ..now what? 🤣
1 more thing Cullen, I went to settings & Color Management following Color Processing Mode, setting it to Custom. My Input Color Space was Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 as you guessed . So my question is did Color Processing Mode knew my Phone is Shooting in this Color Space or it just Randomly threw options at me, like hey these are the Input Color Spaces you can choose from & the one that happened to show up for dialog box was Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 . Like it knew or It just showed up with options to choose from ?
@@CullenKelly Alright🤓🤓......Is there any source or a website that might give us our Camera Color Space info....I looked up for it, but couldn't find it. Do Phone Manufacturers don't want us to know it??
I think one important aspect that ACES has going which RCM does not, is the governing body. RCM is at the whims of whatever BMD decides it ought to be as time goes on, but projects processed and archived via ACES have the security of the Academy’s technical design built right in.
@@CullenKelly I totally agree that for most, there’s functionally no difference. But the Academy formulated ACES with future-proof needs in mind, with scene-referred code values that have no bounds/limit. I’m sure RCM is doing something equivalent under the hood, but it really just exists within Resolve. That’s great (and probably easier) for any Resolve -only project, but ACES absolutely wins out if there are multiple workstations, VFX, etc. involved.
RCM is cool as a self-contained thing, I can’t help but wonder though if BMD would’ve been better off building onto ACES with additional IDT options, instead of “reinventing the wheel” as it were. I personally trust the Academy to maintain a consistent and defined (quantified) workflow versus BMD, but that’s just me. You can look up how ACES functions from a measurable, technical, scientific perspective, versus RCM, which, near as I can tell is just “it works, don’t ask questions.”
@@ForestCinema I'd actually disagree somewhat, the technical information is their it's in bmds new features guide, yes the presets need clarification but the bmds justification is davinchi wide gamut is bigger then aces for archival reasons & didn't baselight make their own proprietary Coulor space too, I think theirs space and a justification to support both the open platform and haveing a platform spefic management, eventually tho cross intergration will come to ocio as stuff gets more democratised & its going to be interesting to see how they spend RnD moneys over the next few years 😉
If you want to do this in nodes you use color space transforms?
There is also an Aces Node i think
Biggest difference for me is recovering highlights. I actually prefer CST because I can use a node before it to recover highlights. If there's a way to do this with DWG or ACES please educate me! thanks
You can recover your highlights in RAW TAB. In cinema DNG format.
Cullen, one thing that has continued to confuse me; if I setup my color management for Davinci Wide and output 709 and ensure each clip is correct on the input (Sony S-Log, DJI Cine, etc.) do I still need to do the color space transforms at the beginning and ends of my node tree on the color page?
If you set up your color management within the project settings, no need for node-based color management. However, if you do select Davinci YRGB, you will need to setup your color management with nodes.
@@CullenKelly Thanks Cullen, I have learned so much from your videos already. I set my color science to Davinci YRGB and my timeline colorspace to Davinci WG/Int, but I wasn't sure if that was enough since I'm mixing footage in my videos between D-Cine, S-Log, GoPro Flat, and 8-bit from cell phones, or if I'd need nodes to convert each separate type to DWG with nodes in the color page and back to 709 node afterwards.
I don't get the wide gamut in the dropdown. Is this only available in the paid version of Davinci Resolve 17?
@@CullenKelly Thanks..
Привет. Где можно скачать эти элементы лутов 2383?
Man, that footage looks better straight out of camera than anything I've done after grading. Why does that footage already look so good without any grading applied?
But also lighting and production design, right? The set, costume, everything in camera was already harmonized into a simple, satisfying color scheme.
Hi, what if my camera is not in the list of both managements? I shoot RAW with a 5D mark3 with firmware Magic Lantern, that is not in the list.
@@CullenKelly In you opinion, is there something wrong (I mean... “theoretically” wrong) in avoiding any automatic conversion and simply grading “by eye”? I don't know, but for my stupid taste I actually don't like all that contrast and saturation when I convert to Rec709 automatically or with a LUT. Instead I often prefer to start grading little-by-little from the “washed-out” original image. Which are the “technical” disadvantages of this way?
I See you are working on a Mac. When I want to get the results I want after the export, I have to set the Output to Rec709-A, but that's not possible in aces. Have you recognised inconsistencies in the gamma of your exports compared to the way they look in davinci? I use a workaround with the combination of a colormanaged project and aces as the timeline colorspace.
@@CullenKelly thanks for your reply! I'm really excited what the reasons may be! I never got the results I expected with combinations of r709 and Gamma 2.2/2.4. Or is it just a tag fault and the reason of the different look is the fact, that the QuickTime player can't read the necessary tags? Kind regards ;)
@@CullenKelly I will have my eyes wide open for your video! It's hard to find something about that online. But quite strange that there are all those standards we all work in all the time and the selected one is iMac color profile 😂 but I don't think you would recommend me to use rec709 for my iMac display colorspace, always exporting a Rec709, Gamma 2.4 video, do you?
so if you graded half a show in Davinci using RCM, then passed the project over to someone using another tool like baselight... how do you maintain consistency when passing the project across? assuming you didn't know you were going to make this transition and started the project in RCM?
@@CullenKelly sounds like a can of worms. Okay thank you Cullen!
You made a mistake of changing your Timeline Color Space to Rec 709 when using the Custom setting. The Timeline Color Space should be set to DaVinci Wide Gamut instead, in order to properly change the Output at a later time.
Just read down the the comments further and noticed that RobFXDLS said roughly the same thing. Didn’t mean to double post, but that step is extremely critical to using Davinci color management.
what movie is that?
i just use yrgb space and color space transform node
right clicking the clip...there isn't an 'input colour space" option anymore..
Aces is imo better because it is already fully integrated w/ all vfx pipeline!
Great tutorial but.... what's up with the playboy book there? jajajaja
I’m here first 🙋♂️
please produce your videos more readable